Great schools for MSW or Ph.D
October 2, 2024 3:07 PM Subscribe
I am putting together a list for my friend of great schools where she can earn either an MSW or a Ph.D.
This is a career switch for her from journalism. She is 27 and studied journalism in undergrad. Right now she is taking psych classes for a BA. We are in California, but she isn't positive she'll stay for the long term. So CA and NY could be good. She thought she wanted in-person classes but now she's open to virtual. She also is not sure about which degree she wants; she wants to use it for counseling/working with people, she thinks, and especially older people. So I'll take suggestions for either degree. Money may be an object (she doesn't have a lot) but maybe she'll take out loans.
This is a career switch for her from journalism. She is 27 and studied journalism in undergrad. Right now she is taking psych classes for a BA. We are in California, but she isn't positive she'll stay for the long term. So CA and NY could be good. She thought she wanted in-person classes but now she's open to virtual. She also is not sure about which degree she wants; she wants to use it for counseling/working with people, she thinks, and especially older people. So I'll take suggestions for either degree. Money may be an object (she doesn't have a lot) but maybe she'll take out loans.
Ph.D. in what?
MSW is generally the terminal degree for social work. You can go on and get a DSW but that's more if you're doing research or teaching; most counselors get their MSW and then have another year or two of supervised clinical hours leading to the licensed clinical social worker exam which allows you to practice independently, or MSW and then work in an agency.
Social work is a flexible degree. You can do counseling, or case management, or tons of other stuff that relates in some way to connecting people in systems.
I would say that the school doesn't matter as much as in some other fields. I went to Tulane and I kind of wish I'd gone to a state school instead. The degree looks good on your resume, I guess, but the loan payments don't look good on my bank statements. It's a professional degree, not really academic, so the important thing is the practical learning you do: I'd say I didn't have any classes that were more academically difficult than like a 200-level undergrad class.
Social workers are in high demand everywhere, so there shouldn't be much problem finding employment. The flip side is that it doesn't pay particularly well because our society does not value the work we do. So you do have to think about the tradeoffs there as well.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:50 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]
MSW is generally the terminal degree for social work. You can go on and get a DSW but that's more if you're doing research or teaching; most counselors get their MSW and then have another year or two of supervised clinical hours leading to the licensed clinical social worker exam which allows you to practice independently, or MSW and then work in an agency.
Social work is a flexible degree. You can do counseling, or case management, or tons of other stuff that relates in some way to connecting people in systems.
I would say that the school doesn't matter as much as in some other fields. I went to Tulane and I kind of wish I'd gone to a state school instead. The degree looks good on your resume, I guess, but the loan payments don't look good on my bank statements. It's a professional degree, not really academic, so the important thing is the practical learning you do: I'd say I didn't have any classes that were more academically difficult than like a 200-level undergrad class.
Social workers are in high demand everywhere, so there shouldn't be much problem finding employment. The flip side is that it doesn't pay particularly well because our society does not value the work we do. So you do have to think about the tradeoffs there as well.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:50 PM on October 2 [4 favorites]
For an MSW the best school is the one you can finish most cheaply.
posted by metasarah at 4:28 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 4:28 PM on October 2 [11 favorites]
If she is looking for clinical or counseling psychology PhD programs, this book is the gold standard in understanding everything you’ll need to know in the application process. The APA used to publish a similar book covering all different specializations for PhD programs, but it looks like this is now a database that they maintain with similar information about admissions and program structure, that you can find here.
posted by Fuego at 6:45 PM on October 2
posted by Fuego at 6:45 PM on October 2
Another thing to consider is getting her degree in the region she wants to work. MSW’s generally require internships and part of the curriculum which helps to land you work afterward, or at the very least tap you into a local network. If she’s interested in NYC Columbia and Fordham have good programs.
I got my MSW at UNC-Chapel Hill which is a strong program but I moved to New York after and never really landed a position that I wanted. Most of my cohort that stayed in NC were able to swiftly land roles. I ended up switching careers.
posted by greta simone at 6:47 PM on October 2
I got my MSW at UNC-Chapel Hill which is a strong program but I moved to New York after and never really landed a position that I wanted. Most of my cohort that stayed in NC were able to swiftly land roles. I ended up switching careers.
posted by greta simone at 6:47 PM on October 2
If she goes the MSW route it would be hugely beneficial to decide where she wants to live first. Not only is it helpful to gain experience with the social service landscape of the state where you plan to work while you're still in school, NY and CA are two of the biggest PITA states to transfer your LCSW to. Earning clinical hours in one state while planning to move to the other requires close attention to the requirements of both states to avoid having to redo hours that don't qualify.
The best school in NY is generally considered to be Hunter, although it has more of a macro focus than she may be looking for. Overall there are plenty of good MSW programs in NYC at various price points.
posted by fox problems at 7:22 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]
The best school in NY is generally considered to be Hunter, although it has more of a macro focus than she may be looking for. Overall there are plenty of good MSW programs in NYC at various price points.
posted by fox problems at 7:22 PM on October 2 [2 favorites]
Clinical psych PhDs are incredibly competitive from what I've heard.
Wait, does she already have a BA in journalism? If so, doing a whole other BA in psychology seems unecessary, at least for the MSW.
She should identify a couple schools, and then ask to meet with someone in admissions. Get a sense of what they would look for, with someone from her background.
At one point I was planning to get an MSW, so I applied to several schools in Massachusetts. Got into all of them, including BC which is like a top 10 program. (i was a psych major, though no work experience.)
She'll definitely want to take some psych classes, but I would also prioritize work and volunteer experience.
I would go to the cheapest school in an area where she is happy to live in once she graduates.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:03 PM on October 2
Wait, does she already have a BA in journalism? If so, doing a whole other BA in psychology seems unecessary, at least for the MSW.
She should identify a couple schools, and then ask to meet with someone in admissions. Get a sense of what they would look for, with someone from her background.
At one point I was planning to get an MSW, so I applied to several schools in Massachusetts. Got into all of them, including BC which is like a top 10 program. (i was a psych major, though no work experience.)
She'll definitely want to take some psych classes, but I would also prioritize work and volunteer experience.
I would go to the cheapest school in an area where she is happy to live in once she graduates.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:03 PM on October 2
Sorry I meant Hunter instead of Fordham!
posted by greta simone at 8:17 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]
posted by greta simone at 8:17 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]
Yes, seconding that most counseling licenses are state-controlled, which means the rules for who can get licensed and how and what coursework is required/accepted vary from state to state. She should be looking at where she wants to practice (that is, live long term) and then finding a school in that state.
posted by lapis at 10:15 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]
posted by lapis at 10:15 PM on October 2 [1 favorite]
For clarification, this person has a BA in Journalism and is getting a second BA in Psych?
posted by MonsieurBon at 8:19 AM on October 3
posted by MonsieurBon at 8:19 AM on October 3
Response by poster: Maybe it's not a full BA--just some prerequisites. Thanks for these helpful answers. Fuego, I can't see the book that you linked.
posted by bookworm4125 at 9:13 AM on October 3
posted by bookworm4125 at 9:13 AM on October 3
Hi, licensed social worker here (not in CA or NYC).
I am clearly biased, but I would recommend avoiding a Clinical Psych PhD completely. Clinical Psych programs are unreasonably competitive and most students come in with a Masters Level counseling degree AND years of research experience/published research. Additionally, clinical psych PhD programs are not really interested in creating clinicians - it is almost exclusively focused on jobs in academia and research at this point. A PsyD in Counseling Psychology focuses more on clinical work with clients, but again, seems unnecessary when a MSW degree is so many fewer years of school and you both end up in direct practice.
My two cents for finding a MSW program: pick the most likely state they’ll want to work in and then pick a state school that is CACREP accredited. For this particular graduate degree it isn’t really all that useful to shell out the money for a “prestigious” program, unless there are other benefits. The most important components in my opinion are accreditation, cost, and support for the internship process. To break this down a bit more:
Accreditation: going to a CACREP program is not required in all states, but it does ensure some oversight into the curriculum and can make the post-degree licensure approval go more smoothly. For example, it appears that California does not require that applicants for licensure attend a CACREP program, however, if this person were to move to another state, they might be SOL with that particular licensure board. California does however have the most stringent licensure requirements, so it’s maaaaybe a bit easier to obtain reciprocity when moving from California TO another state. I would be particularly careful with online MSW programs, as many folks end up having to take additional coursework on the back end of the degree to even apply for a license. Unfortunately, I’ve heard from many folks that despite making up this gap in coursework, they are still denied licensure by the state boards.
Cost: I encourage folks to think about not just the cost of the degree, but also the continued costs after graduation if one is seeking licensure. These costs include supervision, continuing education, licensure test prep, test fees, and application fees. And yes, entry-mid level jobs are compensated generally poorly, which adds an additional layer of stress. You CAN absolutely make good income as a licensed MSW, however, that will generally either be by working your way up to middle-upper mgmt in organizations OR in independent private practice. It’s financially a very difficult first couple of years for most folks.
Internship/practicum process: the program I attended had an entire team to screen and place students in the required practicums. The school itself cultivated many relationships with social work organizations, and reserved enough spots for every student to have a practicum site. Additionally the program ensured that practicum sites were providing the needed experience to be able to apply for licensure in the future. I can’t say they were all good practicums with good supervisors (in fact, many are terrible for various reasons), but I am also grateful that I wasn’t having to blind email every org in the city a request for a practicum placement that may not even count when you go to apply for licensure. Highly recommend screening programs for their practicum placement process.
Good luck to your friend! I know some of this information may come across as negative, but there are many scammy and substandard programs that, at worst, are preying on folks who have a desire to work in a helping profession.
posted by gollie at 12:10 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
I am clearly biased, but I would recommend avoiding a Clinical Psych PhD completely. Clinical Psych programs are unreasonably competitive and most students come in with a Masters Level counseling degree AND years of research experience/published research. Additionally, clinical psych PhD programs are not really interested in creating clinicians - it is almost exclusively focused on jobs in academia and research at this point. A PsyD in Counseling Psychology focuses more on clinical work with clients, but again, seems unnecessary when a MSW degree is so many fewer years of school and you both end up in direct practice.
My two cents for finding a MSW program: pick the most likely state they’ll want to work in and then pick a state school that is CACREP accredited. For this particular graduate degree it isn’t really all that useful to shell out the money for a “prestigious” program, unless there are other benefits. The most important components in my opinion are accreditation, cost, and support for the internship process. To break this down a bit more:
Accreditation: going to a CACREP program is not required in all states, but it does ensure some oversight into the curriculum and can make the post-degree licensure approval go more smoothly. For example, it appears that California does not require that applicants for licensure attend a CACREP program, however, if this person were to move to another state, they might be SOL with that particular licensure board. California does however have the most stringent licensure requirements, so it’s maaaaybe a bit easier to obtain reciprocity when moving from California TO another state. I would be particularly careful with online MSW programs, as many folks end up having to take additional coursework on the back end of the degree to even apply for a license. Unfortunately, I’ve heard from many folks that despite making up this gap in coursework, they are still denied licensure by the state boards.
Cost: I encourage folks to think about not just the cost of the degree, but also the continued costs after graduation if one is seeking licensure. These costs include supervision, continuing education, licensure test prep, test fees, and application fees. And yes, entry-mid level jobs are compensated generally poorly, which adds an additional layer of stress. You CAN absolutely make good income as a licensed MSW, however, that will generally either be by working your way up to middle-upper mgmt in organizations OR in independent private practice. It’s financially a very difficult first couple of years for most folks.
Internship/practicum process: the program I attended had an entire team to screen and place students in the required practicums. The school itself cultivated many relationships with social work organizations, and reserved enough spots for every student to have a practicum site. Additionally the program ensured that practicum sites were providing the needed experience to be able to apply for licensure in the future. I can’t say they were all good practicums with good supervisors (in fact, many are terrible for various reasons), but I am also grateful that I wasn’t having to blind email every org in the city a request for a practicum placement that may not even count when you go to apply for licensure. Highly recommend screening programs for their practicum placement process.
Good luck to your friend! I know some of this information may come across as negative, but there are many scammy and substandard programs that, at worst, are preying on folks who have a desire to work in a helping profession.
posted by gollie at 12:10 AM on October 5 [1 favorite]
Just saw that my link didn’t work for some reason. The book I recommended is Insider’s Guide to Graduate Programs in Clinical and Counseling Psychology. It’s updated yearly, you can find it on Amazon or Barnes & Noble.
I was in grad school for clinical psych once, but it was about 25 years ago so things may have changed a lot since. I was not the best of the best students in undergrad, had a 3.6 GPA and little to no research experience other than a poster I presented at a small regional conference, but still was admitted to 6 of 9 programs I applied to. So while admissions were competitive then, it was less about your GPA and more about having gained relevant experience though an internship and having interests that meshed well with a particular professor in your program (for programs with research components—I would suggest being open to this as often conducting therapy is not what you may expect; this is what happened to me and led to my decision to drop out of clinical psychology and go into social psychology instead. I’m very glad I didn’t apply to PsyD or counseling programs as I’d considered because then I would never have discovered my love for research and would have had an even greater career identity crisis). Also, as a data point, at the time they discouraged getting masters degrees ahead of admission to a PhD program as most programs included a masters as an intermediate step along the way. Maybe that’s changed in the 16 years since I’ve been in grad school.
posted by Fuego at 7:36 PM on October 5
I was in grad school for clinical psych once, but it was about 25 years ago so things may have changed a lot since. I was not the best of the best students in undergrad, had a 3.6 GPA and little to no research experience other than a poster I presented at a small regional conference, but still was admitted to 6 of 9 programs I applied to. So while admissions were competitive then, it was less about your GPA and more about having gained relevant experience though an internship and having interests that meshed well with a particular professor in your program (for programs with research components—I would suggest being open to this as often conducting therapy is not what you may expect; this is what happened to me and led to my decision to drop out of clinical psychology and go into social psychology instead. I’m very glad I didn’t apply to PsyD or counseling programs as I’d considered because then I would never have discovered my love for research and would have had an even greater career identity crisis). Also, as a data point, at the time they discouraged getting masters degrees ahead of admission to a PhD program as most programs included a masters as an intermediate step along the way. Maybe that’s changed in the 16 years since I’ve been in grad school.
posted by Fuego at 7:36 PM on October 5
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