Managing employees with less drive to learn in a career office job?
August 15, 2024 1:21 PM Subscribe
I am a senior non-manager employee and I may be managing my own group soon. I know from working with the future potential direct reports, they tend to stay within their silo of work and don't expand their knowledge or skills much beyond it. I'm the opposite, always looking to learn new things, even if it's outside my job description (which is normally allowed by the employer). How do I manage people to grow beyond their role, or should it be managed at all?
For background: It's an office job in a large company. I have been in my current department almost 10 years. I'm the longest tenured member of the department, including my manager. I've been promoted (think from Cake Decorator Level 1 to Cake Decorator Level 2). In a secondary role, I'm essentially a subject matter expert, consulting with various departments in the company by representing other departments they are not as familiar with. I have been working from home since 2020 if that's relevant. I'm also well aware my approach tends to be more anomalous, and many, perhaps even most, people stay in their lanes (though, that's often the way the employer wants it, but my company is okay with my approach).
My question comes down to how do I manage direct reports specifically regarding this: I have solid grounds for thinking I could be promoted to manager soon (ie. someone in a position to make it happen has told me wheels have started turning, it's not approved yet but it could happen in x months). Unlike many of my coworkers, I take a lot of initiative, such as learning how other departments do their jobs so I can improve how I do mine when the work overlaps, and keeping a bigger picture in mind when prioritizing work. I also look for chances to be cross-trained on common, easy tasks so I can do them instead of waiting for someone else, which saves time not only with the task at hand, but also when troubleshooting. (This is the main issue.) The company implicitly encourages cross-training in most cases. This approach to my work helped me get to where I am now.
Many of my coworkers on the other hand, don't. They are content to stick to their job description and give problems / tasks to other people, rather than learn how to handle it themselves (recognizing many, but not all, problems SHOULD be given to someone else). These are often tasks they physically can do and are allowed to do, they just don't take the time to learn / do them, instead giving them to other people. Think of it as preparing produce in a grocery store before opening versus maintaining produce levels during the day. If you can do one, you are probably capable of doing both (and maybe the store allows doing both), even if only one of them is "your job." If it was me, I would learn the nuances of both and just do both parts as needed while my coworkers usually stick to the one they are assigned to.
Should I address this proactively with direct reports? I doubt as a requirement, but maybe as a suggestion to become stronger employees who are more likely to get coveted opportunities later? Should I leave it for when they bring up how to move to a different role or how to be promoted? Should I leave it alone and accept that they work differently than I do and that's okay? (And honestly, it helps separate me from them, which obviously has selfish benefits for me.) Are there any books, articles, podcast episodes, YouTube videos, etc. that address more specifically this topic, rather than general management, or maybe something adjacent?
I understand the promotion may never even happen, which makes this a bit moot. However, I already de facto mentor my coworkers by being there longer and this is a common situation I come across. I could incorporate some ideas into how I mentor them.
TIA!
For background: It's an office job in a large company. I have been in my current department almost 10 years. I'm the longest tenured member of the department, including my manager. I've been promoted (think from Cake Decorator Level 1 to Cake Decorator Level 2). In a secondary role, I'm essentially a subject matter expert, consulting with various departments in the company by representing other departments they are not as familiar with. I have been working from home since 2020 if that's relevant. I'm also well aware my approach tends to be more anomalous, and many, perhaps even most, people stay in their lanes (though, that's often the way the employer wants it, but my company is okay with my approach).
My question comes down to how do I manage direct reports specifically regarding this: I have solid grounds for thinking I could be promoted to manager soon (ie. someone in a position to make it happen has told me wheels have started turning, it's not approved yet but it could happen in x months). Unlike many of my coworkers, I take a lot of initiative, such as learning how other departments do their jobs so I can improve how I do mine when the work overlaps, and keeping a bigger picture in mind when prioritizing work. I also look for chances to be cross-trained on common, easy tasks so I can do them instead of waiting for someone else, which saves time not only with the task at hand, but also when troubleshooting. (This is the main issue.) The company implicitly encourages cross-training in most cases. This approach to my work helped me get to where I am now.
Many of my coworkers on the other hand, don't. They are content to stick to their job description and give problems / tasks to other people, rather than learn how to handle it themselves (recognizing many, but not all, problems SHOULD be given to someone else). These are often tasks they physically can do and are allowed to do, they just don't take the time to learn / do them, instead giving them to other people. Think of it as preparing produce in a grocery store before opening versus maintaining produce levels during the day. If you can do one, you are probably capable of doing both (and maybe the store allows doing both), even if only one of them is "your job." If it was me, I would learn the nuances of both and just do both parts as needed while my coworkers usually stick to the one they are assigned to.
Should I address this proactively with direct reports? I doubt as a requirement, but maybe as a suggestion to become stronger employees who are more likely to get coveted opportunities later? Should I leave it for when they bring up how to move to a different role or how to be promoted? Should I leave it alone and accept that they work differently than I do and that's okay? (And honestly, it helps separate me from them, which obviously has selfish benefits for me.) Are there any books, articles, podcast episodes, YouTube videos, etc. that address more specifically this topic, rather than general management, or maybe something adjacent?
I understand the promotion may never even happen, which makes this a bit moot. However, I already de facto mentor my coworkers by being there longer and this is a common situation I come across. I could incorporate some ideas into how I mentor them.
TIA!
If I’m not getting paid to do it, I don’t want to learn how to do it because then you’ll start making me do that other thing for free.
I realize most jobs have “other duties as assigned” and that’s the reality, but I’m content to show up and do my job and that’s it. I have other areas of my life where I grow and work isn’t it. It’s to pay the bills.
posted by raccoon409 at 1:28 PM on August 15 [56 favorites]
I realize most jobs have “other duties as assigned” and that’s the reality, but I’m content to show up and do my job and that’s it. I have other areas of my life where I grow and work isn’t it. It’s to pay the bills.
posted by raccoon409 at 1:28 PM on August 15 [56 favorites]
I mean, I work in a unionized workplace, and I feel if employees are doing all of what's in their job descriptions, they're doing great. If your employer wants to compensate them more for cross-training and change their job descriptions to reflect the more complex work, that's also probably okay. What is probably not great is a manager trying to change everyone's working style to match their own preference. I suggest reading some articles or books about different working strengths and styles. While it can be great to be flexible and to help out the team during a pinch, employees are hired for jobs with specific descriptions, and if that changes a fair way to deal with it is also to increase the pay or increase the number of employees so not everyone is always having to step in to do everything in a constant state of deadline stress.
posted by lizard music at 1:39 PM on August 15 [15 favorites]
posted by lizard music at 1:39 PM on August 15 [15 favorites]
You sound so gung ho about work and advancing and your career that you don't get how other people don't feel the same. "If it were me, I would cross train." Not everybody cares about their job or wants to advance at it. They're there for a paycheck and live their lives elsewhere. At my new job, there seems to be one culture of "advance advance advance" and then the opposite group of "I've been doing this one thing for 15 years and I'm fine with it."
"Should I leave it for when they bring up how to move to a different role or how to be promoted?"
I think the question you need to ask is, "Do you want to move to a different role/be promoted or are you happy staying where you are until retirement?" If they WANT to advance, then advise them in that direction. If they truly don't care about learning more, cross training, or advancing their career--leave 'em be, unless they need to start learning other things or else get laid off. The whole "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" thing. Just because these people work in a bakery doesn't always mean they're dying to make more cakes.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:54 PM on August 15 [15 favorites]
"Should I leave it for when they bring up how to move to a different role or how to be promoted?"
I think the question you need to ask is, "Do you want to move to a different role/be promoted or are you happy staying where you are until retirement?" If they WANT to advance, then advise them in that direction. If they truly don't care about learning more, cross training, or advancing their career--leave 'em be, unless they need to start learning other things or else get laid off. The whole "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" thing. Just because these people work in a bakery doesn't always mean they're dying to make more cakes.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:54 PM on August 15 [15 favorites]
You are not a manager yet. Who are you talking to at work about your career growth? What do those conversations look like? Do you have managers you like, respect, and enjoy working with? Do you have people you work with who make you eager to be engaged at work? That's the environment that you want to help cultivate when/if you become a manager.
I am a manager who receives positive feedback on how I manage, and I report to a manager who I would give positive feedback to about how they manage. Some commonalities:
- frequent contact with real time feedback
- recognition of good work
- problem solving to address poor work
- openness/honesty about opportunities
You can't magically make somebody give extra for no return. It's not healthy, actually, or smart, to give in excess to an employer as an employee. And it's really really stupid to be a manager who expects their employees to do that, your team will make fun of you.
What you can do is:
- LISTEN. Keep your ears open, people will tell you what things they like and don't like about their job. You can suggest they try working on things that are like the things they like to do, but a tiny step outside of their bubble. In return, you can try to shift things they don't like off of their plate, when possible.
- ENCOURAGE. This can be things like "I'd like to see you take more of a leading role on x next year, what support would you need in order to accomplish that?" or "the career path for this role means that y is the next stage, if that's something you want to pursue. Ideal y candidates look like this [description]."
- PROVIDE ACTIONABLE FEEDBACK. "I absolutely hear you when you say you expected a bigger raise this year. Your performance at this role is measured at full, and the company sets boundaries at z% for that level of performance. Steps you can take to get a higher performance rating would be [description]."
But really as a manager and HR my advice to you right now would be: great, I'm glad you have big goals and plans, but you really need to stay in your lane right now and focus on doing your job well, and stop trying to play fantasy football with your peers. When you're a manager, after you've established trust with your teammates and got up to speed in your role, then this is a great thing to work on.
posted by phunniemee at 1:58 PM on August 15 [11 favorites]
I am a manager who receives positive feedback on how I manage, and I report to a manager who I would give positive feedback to about how they manage. Some commonalities:
- frequent contact with real time feedback
- recognition of good work
- problem solving to address poor work
- openness/honesty about opportunities
You can't magically make somebody give extra for no return. It's not healthy, actually, or smart, to give in excess to an employer as an employee. And it's really really stupid to be a manager who expects their employees to do that, your team will make fun of you.
What you can do is:
- LISTEN. Keep your ears open, people will tell you what things they like and don't like about their job. You can suggest they try working on things that are like the things they like to do, but a tiny step outside of their bubble. In return, you can try to shift things they don't like off of their plate, when possible.
- ENCOURAGE. This can be things like "I'd like to see you take more of a leading role on x next year, what support would you need in order to accomplish that?" or "the career path for this role means that y is the next stage, if that's something you want to pursue. Ideal y candidates look like this [description]."
- PROVIDE ACTIONABLE FEEDBACK. "I absolutely hear you when you say you expected a bigger raise this year. Your performance at this role is measured at full, and the company sets boundaries at z% for that level of performance. Steps you can take to get a higher performance rating would be [description]."
But really as a manager and HR my advice to you right now would be: great, I'm glad you have big goals and plans, but you really need to stay in your lane right now and focus on doing your job well, and stop trying to play fantasy football with your peers. When you're a manager, after you've established trust with your teammates and got up to speed in your role, then this is a great thing to work on.
posted by phunniemee at 1:58 PM on August 15 [11 favorites]
The only thing these people are obligated to do are their job descriptions, and that's assuming their job descriptions aren't weaselpooped with exploitation clauses involving the phrase "as needed".
They aren't obligated to be like you. What you are doing is optional and voluntary and I don't know if it's annoying the crap out of other people because you won't stay in your lane OR if someone out there is glad you're doing their work but just because YOU do it doesn't mean it's good or should be expected or is the only admirable thing.
(Punishing people for being good at their jobs but having no management training by making them management is how things work, I realize, but learn about not just management(tm) but about labor if you want extra homework for your job. But in a fair labor environment, you'd be paid for the time and effort doing that.)
If your direct reports tell you they are looking for growth, you can decide then what ways are appropriate to help them.
I got old enough to get angry about this stuff and also can get another job if I have to, so I actually threw a professional tantrum last year when my manager - who assigned me 5 projects when I started and then took over 3 months of unexpected leave and was too busy to meet with me for months after he got back - sat down for our first 1:1 in almost 6 months and said "we're not going to talk about your active projects in these (weekly!!!!!) meetings anymore, we're going to talk about your career" and I was like are you shitting me I've only been here for 6 unsupported months??? and escalated to the person I assume came up with that bullshit idea. The moral of the story: your first long-term project is making sure people have everything they need to do their actual jobs, your second long-term project is making sure the team is delivering the best possible work to whoever they deliver it to, and when you run out of those issues you can start talking about doing some other job.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:09 PM on August 15 [5 favorites]
They aren't obligated to be like you. What you are doing is optional and voluntary and I don't know if it's annoying the crap out of other people because you won't stay in your lane OR if someone out there is glad you're doing their work but just because YOU do it doesn't mean it's good or should be expected or is the only admirable thing.
(Punishing people for being good at their jobs but having no management training by making them management is how things work, I realize, but learn about not just management(tm) but about labor if you want extra homework for your job. But in a fair labor environment, you'd be paid for the time and effort doing that.)
If your direct reports tell you they are looking for growth, you can decide then what ways are appropriate to help them.
I got old enough to get angry about this stuff and also can get another job if I have to, so I actually threw a professional tantrum last year when my manager - who assigned me 5 projects when I started and then took over 3 months of unexpected leave and was too busy to meet with me for months after he got back - sat down for our first 1:1 in almost 6 months and said "we're not going to talk about your active projects in these (weekly!!!!!) meetings anymore, we're going to talk about your career" and I was like are you shitting me I've only been here for 6 unsupported months??? and escalated to the person I assume came up with that bullshit idea. The moral of the story: your first long-term project is making sure people have everything they need to do their actual jobs, your second long-term project is making sure the team is delivering the best possible work to whoever they deliver it to, and when you run out of those issues you can start talking about doing some other job.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:09 PM on August 15 [5 favorites]
Agreed that you should approach from an individual level. "Are *you* interested in learning new skills and cross-training to build up your promotability?" For those who answer yes, work with them on a plan. For those who answer no, leave them be. The key is incentive. If it's something they want, with the hopes of promotability or marketability in the wider industry, then great, foster that. If not, then let them do their job as is. If you become a manager, and want everyone to reach beyond their scope, then talk to your manager about possible incentives (bonuses, structured raises, etc).
posted by greta simone at 2:10 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
posted by greta simone at 2:10 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
I have been a manager for a long time and I can tell you that you do NOT want a whole team of ambitious, anomalous, over-performing, above-and-beyond types. Unless you are going to have sufficient budget and ability to promote these people and compensate them with extra money for their extra work. Not to mention the budget and buy-in to implement all their bright ideas.
And I don’t think you will have that. Because if the company supported that, why aren’t they paying YOU extra for your extra work? You’ve been doing a “secondary role” for free and they’re dangling what sounds like a long overdue promotion. It’s great that you’re cool with the situation, I was like that too and I get how high performance can be its own reward, but not a lot of people would be okay with that. Don’t force that on anyone else. Because it’s not fair.
Because leadership roles are limited, you really only need a couple of people on a leadership track on one team. The dream is that the rest of them are 9-5ers who aren’t superstars but aren’t causing major legal or financial issues for the company, who mostly do what they were hired to do, and are basically pleasant and who take their paltry annual increase without tears and swearing, and go home to a healthy life-work balance where life is more important.
There is cross-training, which is learning the other pieces so you can better contextualize your piece. For example, the lawyer learning how the accounting software works so that they know the sales contract they’re drafting is enforceable in the accounting system. Or, the hotel housekeeper knowing how to unlock the maintenance shed in case the maintenance staff is late and someone needs the hedge trimmer. Cross-training is good. It should be offered as training and development for those who are interested or maybe as an occasional requirement if something is especially relevant.
Then there is just…doing someone else’s job. Someone else who was hired and is paid to do that work. That should never, ever be a requirement. Unless filling in for that other role is already part of the job, which I think you would’ve mentioned if that were the case. So, the lawyer should not be entering the info in the financial software—the accountant is being paid to do that properly and the lawyer has lawyer things to do for the company. The housekeeper should not be trimming the hedges unless “occasional grounds maintenance during maintenance staff absences” is part of their job description.
posted by kapers at 2:19 PM on August 15 [22 favorites]
And I don’t think you will have that. Because if the company supported that, why aren’t they paying YOU extra for your extra work? You’ve been doing a “secondary role” for free and they’re dangling what sounds like a long overdue promotion. It’s great that you’re cool with the situation, I was like that too and I get how high performance can be its own reward, but not a lot of people would be okay with that. Don’t force that on anyone else. Because it’s not fair.
Because leadership roles are limited, you really only need a couple of people on a leadership track on one team. The dream is that the rest of them are 9-5ers who aren’t superstars but aren’t causing major legal or financial issues for the company, who mostly do what they were hired to do, and are basically pleasant and who take their paltry annual increase without tears and swearing, and go home to a healthy life-work balance where life is more important.
There is cross-training, which is learning the other pieces so you can better contextualize your piece. For example, the lawyer learning how the accounting software works so that they know the sales contract they’re drafting is enforceable in the accounting system. Or, the hotel housekeeper knowing how to unlock the maintenance shed in case the maintenance staff is late and someone needs the hedge trimmer. Cross-training is good. It should be offered as training and development for those who are interested or maybe as an occasional requirement if something is especially relevant.
Then there is just…doing someone else’s job. Someone else who was hired and is paid to do that work. That should never, ever be a requirement. Unless filling in for that other role is already part of the job, which I think you would’ve mentioned if that were the case. So, the lawyer should not be entering the info in the financial software—the accountant is being paid to do that properly and the lawyer has lawyer things to do for the company. The housekeeper should not be trimming the hedges unless “occasional grounds maintenance during maintenance staff absences” is part of their job description.
posted by kapers at 2:19 PM on August 15 [22 favorites]
Realistically, what happens if they were to learn all these new skills and tasks? Do they get paid more? Do they have concrete opportunities for advancement within reasonable timeframes? Does it open up *actual* new opportunities for them? Those are going to be the things that will motivate many (but not all) employees.
But too often the result is either "You now get to do more work!" or "It will help you advance!" with no real opportunities.
posted by Nightman at 2:33 PM on August 15 [12 favorites]
But too often the result is either "You now get to do more work!" or "It will help you advance!" with no real opportunities.
posted by Nightman at 2:33 PM on August 15 [12 favorites]
You are getting a ton of great advice that is hitting on a bunch of points I would make.
The one thing I’ll add is - having needed medical leave twice in my life, and having to adjust my expectations of myself and my job role duties downward both times, you really want to be mindful of inclusion as a manager as well.
As many have rightfully pointed out, not everyone wants to work to 100% potential let alone 125% potential. Additionally, some people through various life / health / other circumstances simply cannot sustain an elevated level of over achievement. That watershed can happen before they end up as your direct report, or mid stream. But your job as manager is not only motivating someone to get to that point IF they want to, it’s also recognizing not everyone will be capable of ever getting to that point.
I am currently looking for jobs like the one you describe as people “staying in their lanes” because, through very little fault of my own, I’ve burned out of high achiever roles due to unfortunate but not uncommon life circumstances. If I should be so lucky to get a job like that where I can put in a decent day’s work and have guardrails on the rest of my time, I’d be thrilled. If someone then came in as my manager and started to mess with the goalposts, I would be devastated, livid, and would immediately start looking to other jobs (not exaggerating).
If you are eager to become management, please make sure you do as much reading on inclusion and equity as you do on incentives and motivation.
posted by seemoorglass at 2:47 PM on August 15 [18 favorites]
The one thing I’ll add is - having needed medical leave twice in my life, and having to adjust my expectations of myself and my job role duties downward both times, you really want to be mindful of inclusion as a manager as well.
As many have rightfully pointed out, not everyone wants to work to 100% potential let alone 125% potential. Additionally, some people through various life / health / other circumstances simply cannot sustain an elevated level of over achievement. That watershed can happen before they end up as your direct report, or mid stream. But your job as manager is not only motivating someone to get to that point IF they want to, it’s also recognizing not everyone will be capable of ever getting to that point.
I am currently looking for jobs like the one you describe as people “staying in their lanes” because, through very little fault of my own, I’ve burned out of high achiever roles due to unfortunate but not uncommon life circumstances. If I should be so lucky to get a job like that where I can put in a decent day’s work and have guardrails on the rest of my time, I’d be thrilled. If someone then came in as my manager and started to mess with the goalposts, I would be devastated, livid, and would immediately start looking to other jobs (not exaggerating).
If you are eager to become management, please make sure you do as much reading on inclusion and equity as you do on incentives and motivation.
posted by seemoorglass at 2:47 PM on August 15 [18 favorites]
Is the expectation in the job you're in that people always be learning new things, always be pushing themselves to improve and excel, and always be advancing? If the explicit, unambiguous, written-in-the-job-description, signed-off-by-HR answer to that question is not yes, then you are the outlier, and you need to both recognize that and, if it comes to that, understand and manage to that.
It's great that you are always learning and pushing and striving. It is not a failure of others that they are not. Many people like to do good work as it is assigned to them and then...stop doing work when it's time to stop. Those who want to push and learn and advance will make themselves known to you through their efforts; those who clearly can't get the job done will also be known to you, and you can address those cases as they appear.
The rest of the workers, the ones who are entirely satisfactory at their jobs and don't really want more than they have? Let 'em be. Be happy they're there, because they're keeping things humming along.
posted by pdb at 3:00 PM on August 15 [2 favorites]
It's great that you are always learning and pushing and striving. It is not a failure of others that they are not. Many people like to do good work as it is assigned to them and then...stop doing work when it's time to stop. Those who want to push and learn and advance will make themselves known to you through their efforts; those who clearly can't get the job done will also be known to you, and you can address those cases as they appear.
The rest of the workers, the ones who are entirely satisfactory at their jobs and don't really want more than they have? Let 'em be. Be happy they're there, because they're keeping things humming along.
posted by pdb at 3:00 PM on August 15 [2 favorites]
I take the same approach as you, and found myself so bitterly disappointed by a similarly dangled promotion that failed to materialize that I would never encourage anyone else to do that. In fact I would encourage them and train them to resist doing that, knowing that if they have the compulsion and drive they probably will anyway, but any amount you can encourage people to pull back will soften the blow.
Unless I really, really trusted my company to reward that, and not in a "you might get promoted in five years" sort of way. But even if I did, I would NEVER encourage it in someone who wasn't already predisposed to it. Because then they don't even have the inherent value/pleasure of learning new things. They just do something difficult for no reward. Instant resentment/burnout factory.
posted by brook horse at 3:00 PM on August 15 [4 favorites]
Unless I really, really trusted my company to reward that, and not in a "you might get promoted in five years" sort of way. But even if I did, I would NEVER encourage it in someone who wasn't already predisposed to it. Because then they don't even have the inherent value/pleasure of learning new things. They just do something difficult for no reward. Instant resentment/burnout factory.
posted by brook horse at 3:00 PM on August 15 [4 favorites]
If you can do one, you are probably capable of doing both (and maybe the store allows doing both), even if only one of them is "your job."
Yeah, but if you have self-worth and value your time you shouldn't. If you're bucking for promotion that's one thing but if you have been hired to do a job, having a manager expect you to go above and beyond is a cliche you don't need to take part in.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:12 PM on August 15 [6 favorites]
Yeah, but if you have self-worth and value your time you shouldn't. If you're bucking for promotion that's one thing but if you have been hired to do a job, having a manager expect you to go above and beyond is a cliche you don't need to take part in.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:12 PM on August 15 [6 favorites]
To shorten that, the way to get employees to do something that you don't pay them to do is to pay them to do it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:16 PM on August 15 [6 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:16 PM on August 15 [6 favorites]
Also, one thing I forgot to add. Cross training is great a ton of the time for those who are motivated to do it. But you know the old phrase “so and so knows enough to be dangerous”?
I have both been, and been seriously inconvenienced by, the person who knows so much that they are dangerously high on their own supply. Servers go down… emails go out to 10k+ people with incorrect event dates… buildings get built that are not up to code… these are all actual examples I’ve witnessed (or perpetrated. sorry to my old IT dept for the server thing) in my career by people who think they know it all. Who, I cannot stress this enough, should have stayed in their lanes.
Cross training is great IF AND ONLY IF cross-trainees still defer to the experts to be the experts. Unless they attend every all-hands, training, and quarterly review for a department, the cross-trainee doesn’t know as much as they probably think they do.
This isn’t even to dig into the ramifications on the OTHER department to have cross-trainees jumping in to regular operations. How does that mess with THEIR workflow? Their own management / incentive structure? Now a bunch of their own staff are twiddling their thumbs playing solitaire because cross-trainees who know half the role are doing all the work…
A lot of employees who don’t meddle across lanes are actually assets in this sense. Knowing generally how to do the work and NOT doing it is not only morally neutral, but can often be a huge plus if you look at the company’s big picture.
posted by seemoorglass at 3:32 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
I have both been, and been seriously inconvenienced by, the person who knows so much that they are dangerously high on their own supply. Servers go down… emails go out to 10k+ people with incorrect event dates… buildings get built that are not up to code… these are all actual examples I’ve witnessed (or perpetrated. sorry to my old IT dept for the server thing) in my career by people who think they know it all. Who, I cannot stress this enough, should have stayed in their lanes.
Cross training is great IF AND ONLY IF cross-trainees still defer to the experts to be the experts. Unless they attend every all-hands, training, and quarterly review for a department, the cross-trainee doesn’t know as much as they probably think they do.
This isn’t even to dig into the ramifications on the OTHER department to have cross-trainees jumping in to regular operations. How does that mess with THEIR workflow? Their own management / incentive structure? Now a bunch of their own staff are twiddling their thumbs playing solitaire because cross-trainees who know half the role are doing all the work…
A lot of employees who don’t meddle across lanes are actually assets in this sense. Knowing generally how to do the work and NOT doing it is not only morally neutral, but can often be a huge plus if you look at the company’s big picture.
posted by seemoorglass at 3:32 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
My response is: whoa buddy, hold your horses.
You have so many more critical skills to learn as a manager than the one you’ve identified. So. Many. Never mind if it’s a good idea (it isn’t really, see above) unless it comes from the staff member. But you need to be thinking about:
- managing workload
- delegating
- presenting information up, down and sideways
- delivering feedback
posted by warriorqueen at 3:35 PM on August 15 [8 favorites]
You have so many more critical skills to learn as a manager than the one you’ve identified. So. Many. Never mind if it’s a good idea (it isn’t really, see above) unless it comes from the staff member. But you need to be thinking about:
- managing workload
- delegating
- presenting information up, down and sideways
- delivering feedback
posted by warriorqueen at 3:35 PM on August 15 [8 favorites]
to add a couple to warriorqueen's list:
- maintaining morale for your direct reports, both individually and as a team
- keeping your people motivated to do their best work, whatever that looks like for them
- understanding what makes people want to do their best work and creating that environment, as much as you can
- clearing obstacles
Management is as much or more about people skills as it is anything else.
posted by pdb at 3:47 PM on August 15 [5 favorites]
- maintaining morale for your direct reports, both individually and as a team
- keeping your people motivated to do their best work, whatever that looks like for them
- understanding what makes people want to do their best work and creating that environment, as much as you can
- clearing obstacles
Management is as much or more about people skills as it is anything else.
posted by pdb at 3:47 PM on August 15 [5 favorites]
Are there any books, articles, podcast episodes, YouTube videos, etc. that address more specifically this topic, rather than general management, or maybe something adjacent?
Working by Studs Terkel is a classic [g]
posted by HearHere at 4:06 PM on August 15 [2 favorites]
Working by Studs Terkel is a classic [g]
posted by HearHere at 4:06 PM on August 15 [2 favorites]
I have been a manager for a long time and I can tell you that you do NOT want a whole team of ambitious, anomalous, over-performing, above-and-beyond types.
I came to say this. Never underestimate the value on a team of a solid, reliable person who his happy and comfortable in their role. If people are starting to outgrow/get uncomfortable with their current situations, they'll let you know and that's the moment you can talk to them about acquiring extra skills.
You're getting a lot of great advice here about other things to prioritize before trying to shift the culture of the group. Take the first few months, even a year, to make sure you establish trust and understand all the basic things you need to know first.
posted by rpfields at 4:07 PM on August 15 [2 favorites]
I came to say this. Never underestimate the value on a team of a solid, reliable person who his happy and comfortable in their role. If people are starting to outgrow/get uncomfortable with their current situations, they'll let you know and that's the moment you can talk to them about acquiring extra skills.
You're getting a lot of great advice here about other things to prioritize before trying to shift the culture of the group. Take the first few months, even a year, to make sure you establish trust and understand all the basic things you need to know first.
posted by rpfields at 4:07 PM on August 15 [2 favorites]
It might help you to stop and think about what might be happening for your colleagues outside of work. Do they have children? A partner? Siblings? Parents? Perhaps they have a chronically ill partner, or a child with extra needs, a sibling who needs financial help or parents who need help with life admin or household tasks or medical appointments. Perhaps they have a disability or chronic illness that you can't see, but that takes their time and energy. Maybe they volunteer their time for an organization that supports their values - helping people, animals, the environment, or are doing activism work to promote policy change. They come to work to do a job and get paid for it, and maybe even for a small reprieve from the demands of their outside life. But work is only a small slice of life for them - a necessary one, but not Everything.
posted by lulu68 at 4:32 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
posted by lulu68 at 4:32 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
If I’m not getting paid to do it, I don’t want to learn how to do it because then you’ll start making me do that other thing for free.
I realize most jobs have “other duties as assigned” and that’s the reality, but I’m content to show up and do my job and that’s it. I have other areas of my life where I grow and work isn’t it. It’s to pay the bills.
posted by raccoon409
Yes. Verbatim. You don't get to decide I need to "grow" as an employee, or assume I want more duties or even want to advance! It's completely fine and normal to not want more tasks or learning tacked onto your job.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:42 PM on August 15 [8 favorites]
I realize most jobs have “other duties as assigned” and that’s the reality, but I’m content to show up and do my job and that’s it. I have other areas of my life where I grow and work isn’t it. It’s to pay the bills.
posted by raccoon409
Yes. Verbatim. You don't get to decide I need to "grow" as an employee, or assume I want more duties or even want to advance! It's completely fine and normal to not want more tasks or learning tacked onto your job.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:42 PM on August 15 [8 favorites]
Yup. Don't do a thing about any of this until and unless you find, through clear discussion where you make it clear that "no" is a valid answer, that these people want to grow in their role and take on more tasks and learn to do things that apparently other people are already willing and able to do.
If you decide, after taking several months to listen and learn and not make any big changes, that there's a real need for more cross-training, that's a valid and reasonable thing to do if it helps everyone cover for everyone else. But don't get all wild and excited about helping people advance without knowing they want that.
posted by Stacey at 5:10 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
If you decide, after taking several months to listen and learn and not make any big changes, that there's a real need for more cross-training, that's a valid and reasonable thing to do if it helps everyone cover for everyone else. But don't get all wild and excited about helping people advance without knowing they want that.
posted by Stacey at 5:10 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
Should I address this proactively with direct reports? I doubt as a requirement, but maybe as a suggestion to become stronger employees who are more likely to get coveted opportunities later? Should I leave it for when they bring up how to move to a different role or how to be promoted? Should I leave it alone and accept that they work differently than I do and that's okay?
and
However, I already de facto mentor my coworkers by being there longer and this is a common situation I come across. I could incorporate some ideas into how I mentor them.
I think you need to slow your roll because the number one skill you need to learn to be a great manager or mentor is how to listen, not what to do or say to get people to do more.
You clearly have spent a lot of time understanding what motivates you, but very little time understanding why your coworkers feel differently. You have focused on what "if it was me" would be like in their jobs, but not a lot on what it is like to actually be them in their jobs. Learning how to do that effectively will be a big part of what will make you a great manager.
And from experience, I am guessing some of them are looking at you taking on secondary roles, mentoring* roles and now preparing months in advance of a promotion that may or may not come and see this as someone setting a precedent of constantly doing more without getting paid commensurately for it that tends to lead to management and executives expecting others to do the same. I've been in more than one organization where cross-training led to one group getting cut because the other one knows how to handle produce anyway and why not add it to their list of tasks. Corporate America is not one big happy family where helping out benefits everyone often.
* Just so you're aware, mentor/mentee relationships are consensual, not de facto. Would you say in front of one of your coworkers that you are their mentor, and would they agree? If not, then you've created a weird hierarchy that you should undo in your head.
posted by openhearted at 5:13 PM on August 15 [9 favorites]
and
However, I already de facto mentor my coworkers by being there longer and this is a common situation I come across. I could incorporate some ideas into how I mentor them.
I think you need to slow your roll because the number one skill you need to learn to be a great manager or mentor is how to listen, not what to do or say to get people to do more.
You clearly have spent a lot of time understanding what motivates you, but very little time understanding why your coworkers feel differently. You have focused on what "if it was me" would be like in their jobs, but not a lot on what it is like to actually be them in their jobs. Learning how to do that effectively will be a big part of what will make you a great manager.
And from experience, I am guessing some of them are looking at you taking on secondary roles, mentoring* roles and now preparing months in advance of a promotion that may or may not come and see this as someone setting a precedent of constantly doing more without getting paid commensurately for it that tends to lead to management and executives expecting others to do the same. I've been in more than one organization where cross-training led to one group getting cut because the other one knows how to handle produce anyway and why not add it to their list of tasks. Corporate America is not one big happy family where helping out benefits everyone often.
* Just so you're aware, mentor/mentee relationships are consensual, not de facto. Would you say in front of one of your coworkers that you are their mentor, and would they agree? If not, then you've created a weird hierarchy that you should undo in your head.
posted by openhearted at 5:13 PM on August 15 [9 favorites]
If you *want* to be a manager, your next branch of learning should be about managment, not subject matter. Not everyone who studies management becomes a good manager, but I’ve never had a good manager who hadn’t studied management. My absolute worst managers have been the ones who were promoted because they were subject matter experts and thought that meant they were already leaders.
posted by Kriesa at 6:33 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
posted by Kriesa at 6:33 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
I recommend you start by reading Alison Green (“Ask a Manager”). I think you’ll learn a lot about peoples’ different attitudes toward careers and professional development, and how different management styles can affect a team.
posted by Kriesa at 6:42 PM on August 15 [4 favorites]
posted by Kriesa at 6:42 PM on August 15 [4 favorites]
Employees learning new relevant skills makes them more marketable. When this happens there are only a couple options: (a) they do these things for their current emoloyer for no extra benefit, i.e., are taken advantage of; (b) not get to do these new things, i.e., perhaps wasted their time learning them; (c) get compensated *by someone* to do them, either internal or external (or maybe intrinsic motivation like it seems like you have).
Leave them alone or compensate them, or they’ll be seeking greener pastures where they will be compensated.
posted by supercres at 8:13 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
Leave them alone or compensate them, or they’ll be seeking greener pastures where they will be compensated.
posted by supercres at 8:13 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
A lot depends on the nature of the business. Some businesses work today pretty much as they worked a generation ago. In a lot of high tech positions, you can't go a year without learning something new, and you might have 100% rollover in technology every five years. If a company wants employees to learn something new, they should be willing to devote time and money for training. OTOH, an employee who takes initiative is usually more promotable.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:42 AM on August 17
posted by SemiSalt at 5:42 AM on August 17
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I think this should come up organically or casually. When you are talking to a report slip in the suggestion to try to expand their knowledge base or offer to show them how to do something they ask about fobbing off.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:27 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]