Angry landlord, please send help!
August 5, 2024 2:02 PM Subscribe
Our landlord is mad at us and has decided that we can therefore no longer use the shared backyard. Specifically, the dogs may not swim in the lake that's on the property. It's hot, and they're miserable. I don't know if I should ignore the guy, or give in.
Looking for ways to think about this, perhaps stories of how to (internally?) deal with difficult people. If you've been in a situation where someone was punishing your pet (or other dependent) rather than you, that's interesting as well.
[sorry, this is long]
I don't want to be dramatic, but it sort of feels like I'm being forced to hurt my pets. They have thick fur and pant for a long time after every walk, now that they can't take a dip in the lake. Obviously, they don't understand what's happening and seem quite confused whenever I take them straight upstairs. Getting them wet with towels only does so much, and there are no other lakes around. I can't even spray them down because the hose is also in the backyard.
Our long-term relationship to the landlord is irrevocably damaged, so not relevant. We are already searching for a new place with all our energy. We were actually asked to leave a few months ago, but haven't been able to find a new apartment yet because of a housing crisis. The law around here provides some protection in that we can't physically be evicted until/unless a judge says so. The landlord is trying to make that happen, but it will take a few more months at least. Meanwhile, we really are stuck here until someone else lets us move in. And this guy definitely wants us gone ASAP. He wants his son to have our apartment, and I believe he's very frustrated that his family is seeing him in a temporarily "powerless" position.
Please assume that we are doing everything we can for the apartment search and do not have the option of moving in with anyone outside of an actual emergency. We're being extremely quiet and basically invisible, certainly not going around taunting the guy in any way. We had a good relationship until Christmas, when water damage and the termination of our contract caused a rift. Things have been deteriorating ever since.
Our lawyer says that we can't legally be banned from the backyard because use of the orchard, vegetable patch, etc. is specified in our contract. Letting the dogs play in the lake is not mentioned there, but he doesn't think we could get in legal trouble from letting them swim as they've done so regularly over the last two years (with explicit permission). They're not causing damage and that hasn't been asserted by the landlord, either. The other dog in the house, who belongs to the landlord's son, still swims occasionally and all three dogs happily swam together until just a couple weeks ago.
However, the lawyer believes we should give in and abide by the new rules regardless. He thinks it's unwise to antagonize a choleric person (his words), and he also believes that compliance might favourably influence the judge if we do end up in court. I sort of feel like I'd rather take on any consequences myself, if that can shield the perfectly innocent animals from this person. Then again, going against a trusted lawyer's advice doesn't sound smart.
I'm not worried about physical violence (Landlord's almost 70 and there's always other people around. Guns are highly controlled here). I believe the worst he'd ever do to me is yell.
What would you do?
[sorry, this is long]
I don't want to be dramatic, but it sort of feels like I'm being forced to hurt my pets. They have thick fur and pant for a long time after every walk, now that they can't take a dip in the lake. Obviously, they don't understand what's happening and seem quite confused whenever I take them straight upstairs. Getting them wet with towels only does so much, and there are no other lakes around. I can't even spray them down because the hose is also in the backyard.
Our long-term relationship to the landlord is irrevocably damaged, so not relevant. We are already searching for a new place with all our energy. We were actually asked to leave a few months ago, but haven't been able to find a new apartment yet because of a housing crisis. The law around here provides some protection in that we can't physically be evicted until/unless a judge says so. The landlord is trying to make that happen, but it will take a few more months at least. Meanwhile, we really are stuck here until someone else lets us move in. And this guy definitely wants us gone ASAP. He wants his son to have our apartment, and I believe he's very frustrated that his family is seeing him in a temporarily "powerless" position.
Please assume that we are doing everything we can for the apartment search and do not have the option of moving in with anyone outside of an actual emergency. We're being extremely quiet and basically invisible, certainly not going around taunting the guy in any way. We had a good relationship until Christmas, when water damage and the termination of our contract caused a rift. Things have been deteriorating ever since.
Our lawyer says that we can't legally be banned from the backyard because use of the orchard, vegetable patch, etc. is specified in our contract. Letting the dogs play in the lake is not mentioned there, but he doesn't think we could get in legal trouble from letting them swim as they've done so regularly over the last two years (with explicit permission). They're not causing damage and that hasn't been asserted by the landlord, either. The other dog in the house, who belongs to the landlord's son, still swims occasionally and all three dogs happily swam together until just a couple weeks ago.
However, the lawyer believes we should give in and abide by the new rules regardless. He thinks it's unwise to antagonize a choleric person (his words), and he also believes that compliance might favourably influence the judge if we do end up in court. I sort of feel like I'd rather take on any consequences myself, if that can shield the perfectly innocent animals from this person. Then again, going against a trusted lawyer's advice doesn't sound smart.
I'm not worried about physical violence (Landlord's almost 70 and there's always other people around. Guns are highly controlled here). I believe the worst he'd ever do to me is yell.
What would you do?
He could hurt your dogs and he doesn’t need guns to do it. All he has to do is leave some poisoned food out. You can’t fully control what they put in their mouths when they are outside, especially off lead. And to swim, they would be off lead. He is clearly not a rational person at this point so who knows how far he’ll go.
posted by koahiatamadl at 2:13 PM on August 5 [13 favorites]
posted by koahiatamadl at 2:13 PM on August 5 [13 favorites]
I'm sorry, it sounds like an upsetting and hostile situation to be in.
However, many, many people have dogs who do not have access to a lake for them to swim in during the summer. It sounds like you may feel guilty that you are letting your animals be hurt by giving in, but it is not harmful to dogs to not have access to a lake, though it may be a more convenient way to cool them down. Here is an article with other tips on how to cool down a dog, maybe one of those would be useful?
posted by brook horse at 2:16 PM on August 5 [25 favorites]
However, many, many people have dogs who do not have access to a lake for them to swim in during the summer. It sounds like you may feel guilty that you are letting your animals be hurt by giving in, but it is not harmful to dogs to not have access to a lake, though it may be a more convenient way to cool them down. Here is an article with other tips on how to cool down a dog, maybe one of those would be useful?
posted by brook horse at 2:16 PM on August 5 [25 favorites]
Agreed with above; to say that you're being forced to hurt your pets is...a bit much. I'm guessing that 99% of dog owners do not have regular access to a lake their dogs are allowed into, so I'd back up from any assertion that they're being harmed. It's a bummer, sure. But there are lots of ways to keep pets cool. For instance, a kiddie pool cost less than $10. Your situation already sucks enough as it is (I've also dealt with a nightmare landlord) so I wouldn't add anything more to the drama. For everything else, I'd listen to your lawyer.
posted by Molasses808 at 2:23 PM on August 5 [34 favorites]
posted by Molasses808 at 2:23 PM on August 5 [34 favorites]
What would you do?
Non-lakeside dog owner of a Bernese/St. Bernard here and yes, this is extremely solvable. Getting a couple of cooling mats (if you don’t have a/c) or a fan. We do the two big walks early in the morning and in the evening, which helps with heat too. I’d follow my lawyer’s advice and focus on finding the next place to rent, preferably with hose access.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:34 PM on August 5 [9 favorites]
Non-lakeside dog owner of a Bernese/St. Bernard here and yes, this is extremely solvable. Getting a couple of cooling mats (if you don’t have a/c) or a fan. We do the two big walks early in the morning and in the evening, which helps with heat too. I’d follow my lawyer’s advice and focus on finding the next place to rent, preferably with hose access.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:34 PM on August 5 [9 favorites]
What does the lease say? That's the critical piece, and since you have a lawyer, I'm guessing the lease doesn't provide access to the lake, or you have no written lease.
If it's very hot and humid, get the dogs' fur trimmed. Dogs have limited ability to sweat, so they pant. Put them in the bath and scoop room temp water from a bucket, or teach them to tolerate a gentle shower; my dog finds it puzzling but acceptable.
posted by theora55 at 2:36 PM on August 5 [3 favorites]
If it's very hot and humid, get the dogs' fur trimmed. Dogs have limited ability to sweat, so they pant. Put them in the bath and scoop room temp water from a bucket, or teach them to tolerate a gentle shower; my dog finds it puzzling but acceptable.
posted by theora55 at 2:36 PM on August 5 [3 favorites]
Please do not dunk a thick haired dog to cool it off! A wet and hot dog is more dangerous than a dry and hot dog. Wet hair is heavy, takes more exertion to lift, and creates an insulating layer around the dog that will trap body heat more. A thick haired wet dog in hot, humid conditions is a dog in danger.
Things you can do instead:
Kiddie pool or bathtub with an inch of cool water to cool their paw pads
Lots of shade
Lifted mesh bed
Fans
Freeze a water bottle, stuff it in a tube sock, and give it as a toy (or place it in bed with them)
posted by phunniemee at 3:03 PM on August 5 [9 favorites]
Things you can do instead:
Kiddie pool or bathtub with an inch of cool water to cool their paw pads
Lots of shade
Lifted mesh bed
Fans
Freeze a water bottle, stuff it in a tube sock, and give it as a toy (or place it in bed with them)
posted by phunniemee at 3:03 PM on August 5 [9 favorites]
I would keep the dogs out of the lake using the solutions mentioned here. I would not risk my pets' safety and wellbeing and a housing situation that is at least temporarily stable, if unpleasant.
I'm sorry - this sounds really irritating when you know you are in the legal right here. But personally I would not pick this fight.
posted by Stacey at 3:33 PM on August 5 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry - this sounds really irritating when you know you are in the legal right here. But personally I would not pick this fight.
posted by Stacey at 3:33 PM on August 5 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for the answers so far. To clarify:
We have a written lease, and it says clearly that we can enjoy the shared backyard and swim in the lake, as well as own pets (specifically, dogs). It just doesn't mention whether the dogs can go in the lake. We were told that they can before we moved in (and several times since), but we don't have proof of that.
We can't set up a paddling pool because all space outside the house is either a public road, or owned by the landlord (driveway, backyard).
We have a bathtub, but it is extremely difficult to get the dogs in there. The tub has a high edge and is sort of around a corner, hidden behind the toilet. It's just not accessible to dogs. The smaller one, I could lift. The bigger one, not a chance. He's also the one who gets hottest, unfortunately. I've thought about a ramp, but there's very little space and I'm also worried that the bathtub might get scratched. I'm pretty sure the landlord would not like that at all.
The dogs are short-haired and when I brush them, there's barely any loose fur coming out. So I don't think a groomer could do much. We have a fan, and it does help a bit. Cooling mat , mesh bed, and ice pack/ice bottle, I could also try.
It sounds logical that wet fur might trap heat, but every time we went swimming after a walk, the dogs stopped panting and seemed relaxed after just a few minutes of swimming. They don't tend to go straight in. They get their legs wet, get out to roll around a bit, and then go for a full swim. They're Labradors, so made for swimming, maybe that matters?
I know I'm being dramatic when I say I feel like I'm being forced to hurt the dogs, and I know they aren't actually being hurt (though they might disagree). I know most dogs don't have access to water every day.
But I just feel so much anger at the arbitrariness of involving animals in a human dispute, mixed up with general disbelief at the disregard for animals (this guy is also currently letting one of his chickens suffer from a painful foot infection rather than paying for a vet). I feel complicated emotions I don't really understand. I feel guilty because I keep wondering if I could have tried harder to help maintain the garden or whatever, and then we wouldn't be forced to leave. I feel angry at humans in general, fencing off entire lakes and forests to keep animals out. And I feel very sad when my dogs look at me like I'm torturing them, just by walking past the lake. I feel like I'm being a coward and precisely not doing the right thing.
Maybe I'm actually asking more about the human conflict or how to deal with my own feelings about this, and less about the dogs.
posted by toucan at 3:33 PM on August 5
We have a written lease, and it says clearly that we can enjoy the shared backyard and swim in the lake, as well as own pets (specifically, dogs). It just doesn't mention whether the dogs can go in the lake. We were told that they can before we moved in (and several times since), but we don't have proof of that.
We can't set up a paddling pool because all space outside the house is either a public road, or owned by the landlord (driveway, backyard).
We have a bathtub, but it is extremely difficult to get the dogs in there. The tub has a high edge and is sort of around a corner, hidden behind the toilet. It's just not accessible to dogs. The smaller one, I could lift. The bigger one, not a chance. He's also the one who gets hottest, unfortunately. I've thought about a ramp, but there's very little space and I'm also worried that the bathtub might get scratched. I'm pretty sure the landlord would not like that at all.
The dogs are short-haired and when I brush them, there's barely any loose fur coming out. So I don't think a groomer could do much. We have a fan, and it does help a bit. Cooling mat , mesh bed, and ice pack/ice bottle, I could also try.
It sounds logical that wet fur might trap heat, but every time we went swimming after a walk, the dogs stopped panting and seemed relaxed after just a few minutes of swimming. They don't tend to go straight in. They get their legs wet, get out to roll around a bit, and then go for a full swim. They're Labradors, so made for swimming, maybe that matters?
I know I'm being dramatic when I say I feel like I'm being forced to hurt the dogs, and I know they aren't actually being hurt (though they might disagree). I know most dogs don't have access to water every day.
But I just feel so much anger at the arbitrariness of involving animals in a human dispute, mixed up with general disbelief at the disregard for animals (this guy is also currently letting one of his chickens suffer from a painful foot infection rather than paying for a vet). I feel complicated emotions I don't really understand. I feel guilty because I keep wondering if I could have tried harder to help maintain the garden or whatever, and then we wouldn't be forced to leave. I feel angry at humans in general, fencing off entire lakes and forests to keep animals out. And I feel very sad when my dogs look at me like I'm torturing them, just by walking past the lake. I feel like I'm being a coward and precisely not doing the right thing.
Maybe I'm actually asking more about the human conflict or how to deal with my own feelings about this, and less about the dogs.
posted by toucan at 3:33 PM on August 5
What I would do in the meantime:
1) Shorter walks, either very early or after sundown
2) Cool clean water available at all times for hydration
3) Fans inside the house where their dog beds are
Dogs are tougher than you think. I know it's rough to see them panting hard after a walk, but that's a dog doing what it's supposed to do to cool down. It sounds like distress to me, too, so I get it - but unless they're actually wheezing, they are dogs that are working as nature intended. I have a dog that's about 90% akita (big dog, heavy coat, built for cold winters) - and she has no access to a lake. But she does have access to a big fenced back yard, and likes to be in it approximately every waking hour, even when it's 99F out and humid as hell. She comes in every 15 minutes or so, gets a drink, cools off, then is back out a minute later.
I'm sorry about your landlord; it's unfortunate, and stupid, that he's choosing to use this unlimited resource of his to punish you. But your dogs will be okay without it, and any confusion will be totally forgotten when you've found a new place. Best of luck to all of you!
posted by invincible summer at 3:40 PM on August 5 [5 favorites]
1) Shorter walks, either very early or after sundown
2) Cool clean water available at all times for hydration
3) Fans inside the house where their dog beds are
Dogs are tougher than you think. I know it's rough to see them panting hard after a walk, but that's a dog doing what it's supposed to do to cool down. It sounds like distress to me, too, so I get it - but unless they're actually wheezing, they are dogs that are working as nature intended. I have a dog that's about 90% akita (big dog, heavy coat, built for cold winters) - and she has no access to a lake. But she does have access to a big fenced back yard, and likes to be in it approximately every waking hour, even when it's 99F out and humid as hell. She comes in every 15 minutes or so, gets a drink, cools off, then is back out a minute later.
I'm sorry about your landlord; it's unfortunate, and stupid, that he's choosing to use this unlimited resource of his to punish you. But your dogs will be okay without it, and any confusion will be totally forgotten when you've found a new place. Best of luck to all of you!
posted by invincible summer at 3:40 PM on August 5 [5 favorites]
After seeing your update - I can see why this situation would be upsetting to you, and also baffling! If they have a dog, who uses the lake, then surely they should be able to understand why your dogs would want to use the lake.
Did your landlord give any (probably arbitrary) reason for why this is suddenly important? Or is it just a little bonus attempt to force you out faster?
In the absence of any possibility of changing his mind - honestly, I would just be nice as hell to this guy and his son. Smile, wave, say hello, be friendly, charming, kind.
It probably won't change anything, but it comes with three bonuses:
1) You get to keep your own dignity as a decent human being
2) You give them zero traction for any potential court proceedings
3) If they have souls, they'll feel guilty as hell about it, which they deserve.
Again - so sorry you're going through this! I hope you and your puppers can find a new place soon.
posted by invincible summer at 3:47 PM on August 5 [6 favorites]
Did your landlord give any (probably arbitrary) reason for why this is suddenly important? Or is it just a little bonus attempt to force you out faster?
In the absence of any possibility of changing his mind - honestly, I would just be nice as hell to this guy and his son. Smile, wave, say hello, be friendly, charming, kind.
It probably won't change anything, but it comes with three bonuses:
1) You get to keep your own dignity as a decent human being
2) You give them zero traction for any potential court proceedings
3) If they have souls, they'll feel guilty as hell about it, which they deserve.
Again - so sorry you're going through this! I hope you and your puppers can find a new place soon.
posted by invincible summer at 3:47 PM on August 5 [6 favorites]
the lawyer believes we should give in and abide by the new rules
I would absolutely do what your lawyer says, because they are an expert on the local law and know what battles you should not pick. This may not be emotionally satisfying, but it is practical.
You may need to modify your walk times or cooling strategies as other dog owners suggest above, but your dogs will be fine without the lake.
posted by zippy at 4:20 PM on August 5 [25 favorites]
I would absolutely do what your lawyer says, because they are an expert on the local law and know what battles you should not pick. This may not be emotionally satisfying, but it is practical.
You may need to modify your walk times or cooling strategies as other dog owners suggest above, but your dogs will be fine without the lake.
posted by zippy at 4:20 PM on August 5 [25 favorites]
It totally makes sense that you're having all these complicated feelings over it! And it sounds like the feelings are the main thing right now. It can be really hard to see a being you are responsible for be uncomfortable. You want to do anything you can to relieve that and feel like a bad person if you don't.
I talked with my partner, who has a degree in animal behavior, about the situation. Their perspective is if you don't think the landlord can cause any more problems, then fuck 'em and let the dogs swim. But if you do think that it could cause problems for you (and it sounds like your lawyer does), don't feel like you have to put your wellbeing second to your dogs' comfort.
They stressed that unless one of them has a heat-intolerant medical condition, this is not torturing the dogs, they're just uncomfortable for a little longer until they cool off over time. Even if the dogs really want to play in the lake! Right now, it sounds like it could be harmful for either them or you if they play in the lake. Like with children who want to eat as much candy as they like, denying them something they want when it's not advisable isn't doing harm, thought it does often feel really bad!
My partner did suggest if you really aren't able to get over the feeling of guilt, give the dogs a treat back home every time they walk past the lake without getting in it. It may not make them 100% forget the lake but it will give them something else to immediately look forward to. Given my own experiences training my pets, you may soon find them dragging you past the lake home for their treat!
posted by brook horse at 4:27 PM on August 5 [3 favorites]
I talked with my partner, who has a degree in animal behavior, about the situation. Their perspective is if you don't think the landlord can cause any more problems, then fuck 'em and let the dogs swim. But if you do think that it could cause problems for you (and it sounds like your lawyer does), don't feel like you have to put your wellbeing second to your dogs' comfort.
They stressed that unless one of them has a heat-intolerant medical condition, this is not torturing the dogs, they're just uncomfortable for a little longer until they cool off over time. Even if the dogs really want to play in the lake! Right now, it sounds like it could be harmful for either them or you if they play in the lake. Like with children who want to eat as much candy as they like, denying them something they want when it's not advisable isn't doing harm, thought it does often feel really bad!
My partner did suggest if you really aren't able to get over the feeling of guilt, give the dogs a treat back home every time they walk past the lake without getting in it. It may not make them 100% forget the lake but it will give them something else to immediately look forward to. Given my own experiences training my pets, you may soon find them dragging you past the lake home for their treat!
posted by brook horse at 4:27 PM on August 5 [3 favorites]
You might want to take a look at this post from the Humane Society of the United States.
Agreed that landlord/tenant issues can be particularly stressful. Sorry this is happening.
posted by SageTrail at 4:29 PM on August 5
Agreed that landlord/tenant issues can be particularly stressful. Sorry this is happening.
posted by SageTrail at 4:29 PM on August 5
Does your landlord know that you are trying your hardest to leave? What is your plan when/as/if he gets a judge to sign off?
I would sit down with him. Tell him you are doing your best to leave. Tell him you are not trying to be contentious. Tell him that banning your dog from swimming will not make you leave any faster than not banning him. Tell him you will keep him updated on your search. Tell him your lawyer recommended that you not let your dog use the lake even though he thinks it is probably ok. Then ask him to reconsider the dog ban and nothing else.
By doing this you have established your good faith. That may be considered by the judge. You have made it clear that you are trying to leave. You are asking him to take pity on your doggo not you.
I don't see how trying to reason with him can make you any worse off than you currently are. You can always decide to let the dog go swimming anyway if it looks like you are either getting thrown to the street or have found another living situation.
Btw, looking at this from landlord's point of view, it has been 8 months since he asked you to leave. He likely thinks this is not a priority on your part. It does not appear to him that you have a sense of urgency.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:38 PM on August 5
I would sit down with him. Tell him you are doing your best to leave. Tell him you are not trying to be contentious. Tell him that banning your dog from swimming will not make you leave any faster than not banning him. Tell him you will keep him updated on your search. Tell him your lawyer recommended that you not let your dog use the lake even though he thinks it is probably ok. Then ask him to reconsider the dog ban and nothing else.
By doing this you have established your good faith. That may be considered by the judge. You have made it clear that you are trying to leave. You are asking him to take pity on your doggo not you.
I don't see how trying to reason with him can make you any worse off than you currently are. You can always decide to let the dog go swimming anyway if it looks like you are either getting thrown to the street or have found another living situation.
Btw, looking at this from landlord's point of view, it has been 8 months since he asked you to leave. He likely thinks this is not a priority on your part. It does not appear to him that you have a sense of urgency.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:38 PM on August 5
Your lawyer is trying to protect you to the best of their ability, and I would listen to them.
posted by lookoutbelow at 4:39 PM on August 5 [6 favorites]
posted by lookoutbelow at 4:39 PM on August 5 [6 favorites]
Are your dogs going to have a lake at the next place they live? Most people don't have lakes for their dogs and have to keep them safe in the heat in other ways, what is it you intend to do then?
Whatever that is, you can do it now.
I understand the frustration of the situation and of having your routines disrupted basically on a whim, but this is a pretty unusual privilege you've had and you should have been worried long before now about what you would do if it wasn't available to you - because of access, pathogens, illness/injury, or a voluntary move. I'd tread incredibly carefully at this point because you (clearly!) can't depend on the landlord being a reasonable human being and antagonizing him is likely not going to improve the situation.
You can talk with a vet about the right way to keep your dogs cool in the heat. Some dogs are double-coated and should not be shaved because the coat itself is supposed to keep them cool even if it appears thick - and they actually shouldn't be wet without being mechanically dried. Some dogs don't have that kind of coat and can be shaved. Some dogs should be wearing cooling vests in high heat, or not walked in the heat of the day. You have other options, so it's time to explore them.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:06 PM on August 5 [2 favorites]
Whatever that is, you can do it now.
I understand the frustration of the situation and of having your routines disrupted basically on a whim, but this is a pretty unusual privilege you've had and you should have been worried long before now about what you would do if it wasn't available to you - because of access, pathogens, illness/injury, or a voluntary move. I'd tread incredibly carefully at this point because you (clearly!) can't depend on the landlord being a reasonable human being and antagonizing him is likely not going to improve the situation.
You can talk with a vet about the right way to keep your dogs cool in the heat. Some dogs are double-coated and should not be shaved because the coat itself is supposed to keep them cool even if it appears thick - and they actually shouldn't be wet without being mechanically dried. Some dogs don't have that kind of coat and can be shaved. Some dogs should be wearing cooling vests in high heat, or not walked in the heat of the day. You have other options, so it's time to explore them.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:06 PM on August 5 [2 favorites]
Most people don't have lakes for their dogs and have to keep them safe in the heat in other ways, what is it you intend to do then? Whatever that is, you can do it now.
Seconding this. I feel for you and the dogs, but this is not a case of you being "forced to hurt your dogs". This is more of a loss of convenience; you had the perk of being able to let them swim in a place nearby, but now you don't. There may be other places you can take your dog for a dip - a park, a beach, something like that. Take them there sometime, they'll be fine.
Also: I feel like we're missing a big piece of the puzzle here. You say your landlord is mad at you - but I don't believe you've said why. May I ask what happened? Did anything in particular trigger it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:29 PM on August 5 [3 favorites]
Seconding this. I feel for you and the dogs, but this is not a case of you being "forced to hurt your dogs". This is more of a loss of convenience; you had the perk of being able to let them swim in a place nearby, but now you don't. There may be other places you can take your dog for a dip - a park, a beach, something like that. Take them there sometime, they'll be fine.
Also: I feel like we're missing a big piece of the puzzle here. You say your landlord is mad at you - but I don't believe you've said why. May I ask what happened? Did anything in particular trigger it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:29 PM on August 5 [3 favorites]
Umm. Your lease says you can use the back yard, and the lake is either a private amenity of the back yard, or a public lake.Let the dogs use them. If your landlord doesn't want you to, that's very sad for him. His sadness will be resolved when you inevitably leave.
I've read your past Asks about this landlord and I would encourage you to get contemptuous. Remember that just because people are angry at you, you do not need to accept that anger.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:43 PM on August 5 [2 favorites]
I've read your past Asks about this landlord and I would encourage you to get contemptuous. Remember that just because people are angry at you, you do not need to accept that anger.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:43 PM on August 5 [2 favorites]
He can’t own the entire lake; bring them in at another entry point.
posted by tristeza at 6:07 PM on August 5 [2 favorites]
posted by tristeza at 6:07 PM on August 5 [2 favorites]
On hot days I bribe my pups with really good treats and drench them them with those and loudly say "I BESTOW UPON YOU THE POWER OF EVAPORATIVE COOLING" -- I'm make sure to hit all major blood flow spots from heart to brain, and really saturate their fur.
It doesn't fix the jerk landlord lake issue, but it does stop my hot dogs from panting.
posted by Grandysaur at 6:11 PM on August 5 [1 favorite]
It doesn't fix the jerk landlord lake issue, but it does stop my hot dogs from panting.
posted by Grandysaur at 6:11 PM on August 5 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I like the idea of a treat ritual while I'm figuring this out. Maybe it could even be a cool treat, they would definitely enjoy that.
I also sort of like the idea of reasoning with the landlord, though I'm not hopeful about that and wouldn't be brave enough to talk face-to-face at this point. He's gotten very angry before, and I get pretty scared when that happens. I understand he's annoyed that we aren't succeeding in finding a new place, but the housing crisis is very, very real. We do look at places, we display our interest, we follow up in polite messages. We send out tons of requests for showings, and we often don't even hear back because landlords are overwhelmed by dozens or even hundreds of messages in just a few hours. We put out our own ad and constantly remind friends and family that we're looking. Our landlord's perspective is that we should move in with family or find a studio apartment, anything to make sure we leave. We can't afford to move twice, and we don't even have family with the necessary space. He keeps saying his son urgently needs our place. But the son already lives in the house, as well, just in a smaller apartment. I get that he wants a bigger place. We're trying to move out! But the urgency is fabricated.
Most people don't have lakes for their dogs and have to keep them safe in the heat in other ways, what is it you intend to do then?
Ever since I got my first dog, I've had access to a hose. That's what I previously relied on. I guess if I did have to move to a place with no hose and no shower or workable bathtub solution, I'd do everything suggested on this thread. But I'm not sure I'd even choose to own two big dogs with dense fur in a humid climate in that case.
I feel like we're missing a big piece of the puzzle here. You say your landlord is mad at you - but I don't believe you've said why. May I ask what happened? Did anything in particular trigger it?
I've asked myself that question, and I don't have a real answer. Things were fine until Christmas, when we woke up to a leak in our ceiling. He brushed it off, but the water was dripping steadily, and we were worried that he wouldn't even come up to see for himself. In the conversation around this, there was some miscommunication and everyone was stressed, but nothing that seemed irreparable. Three weeks later, we were told that the son wants our place. From then on, things became more and more distant. They (landlord and his wife, who doesn't own the house) returned our Christmas present and didn't talk to us anymore. When they found out we wouldn't be able to move out at the appropriate time, things got much worse. At this point, the guy's furious. He's started using our last names in notes (all his communication is now written down and delivered to our door), even though we met through shared friends and never used last names before. He yelled at me at the top of his voice to "get out" and that we're "no longer welcome here" last week. And he's doing his best to start a legal battle that could cost us a few thousand euros if we lose.
posted by toucan at 6:38 PM on August 5
I also sort of like the idea of reasoning with the landlord, though I'm not hopeful about that and wouldn't be brave enough to talk face-to-face at this point. He's gotten very angry before, and I get pretty scared when that happens. I understand he's annoyed that we aren't succeeding in finding a new place, but the housing crisis is very, very real. We do look at places, we display our interest, we follow up in polite messages. We send out tons of requests for showings, and we often don't even hear back because landlords are overwhelmed by dozens or even hundreds of messages in just a few hours. We put out our own ad and constantly remind friends and family that we're looking. Our landlord's perspective is that we should move in with family or find a studio apartment, anything to make sure we leave. We can't afford to move twice, and we don't even have family with the necessary space. He keeps saying his son urgently needs our place. But the son already lives in the house, as well, just in a smaller apartment. I get that he wants a bigger place. We're trying to move out! But the urgency is fabricated.
Most people don't have lakes for their dogs and have to keep them safe in the heat in other ways, what is it you intend to do then?
Ever since I got my first dog, I've had access to a hose. That's what I previously relied on. I guess if I did have to move to a place with no hose and no shower or workable bathtub solution, I'd do everything suggested on this thread. But I'm not sure I'd even choose to own two big dogs with dense fur in a humid climate in that case.
I feel like we're missing a big piece of the puzzle here. You say your landlord is mad at you - but I don't believe you've said why. May I ask what happened? Did anything in particular trigger it?
I've asked myself that question, and I don't have a real answer. Things were fine until Christmas, when we woke up to a leak in our ceiling. He brushed it off, but the water was dripping steadily, and we were worried that he wouldn't even come up to see for himself. In the conversation around this, there was some miscommunication and everyone was stressed, but nothing that seemed irreparable. Three weeks later, we were told that the son wants our place. From then on, things became more and more distant. They (landlord and his wife, who doesn't own the house) returned our Christmas present and didn't talk to us anymore. When they found out we wouldn't be able to move out at the appropriate time, things got much worse. At this point, the guy's furious. He's started using our last names in notes (all his communication is now written down and delivered to our door), even though we met through shared friends and never used last names before. He yelled at me at the top of his voice to "get out" and that we're "no longer welcome here" last week. And he's doing his best to start a legal battle that could cost us a few thousand euros if we lose.
posted by toucan at 6:38 PM on August 5
Just a thought.
It is unlikely that whatever place you are able to find, will have backyard lake access for your dogs.
If you still have a legal lease to the unit, ride that. Get a kiddy pool for the backyard, which you do seem to have access to, if your dogs need to splash.
Good luck! Talk to the neighbors about lake access. Doubtful your landlord owns the lake. Your dogs might meet some new friends who are happy to let them swim...
posted by Windopaene at 7:06 PM on August 5
It is unlikely that whatever place you are able to find, will have backyard lake access for your dogs.
If you still have a legal lease to the unit, ride that. Get a kiddy pool for the backyard, which you do seem to have access to, if your dogs need to splash.
Good luck! Talk to the neighbors about lake access. Doubtful your landlord owns the lake. Your dogs might meet some new friends who are happy to let them swim...
posted by Windopaene at 7:06 PM on August 5
And the neighbors have dealt with your landlord for longer than you have. They probably have issues as well. And all the people like the friendly dogs.
posted by Windopaene at 7:12 PM on August 5
posted by Windopaene at 7:12 PM on August 5
Ignoring the landlord problem, and just thinking about the doggos - does SniffSpot have any locations in your area? In a nutshell, it's renting people's backyards as a private dog park for an hour or two at a time. Some spots have water access available, or at least a hose or a kiddie pool you could use! Ive never used it myself, but I've heard good things and probably would if there was anything available closer to where I live.
On Edit: dang.. saw you mention euros. I assume SniffSpot is a north american thing, but maybe there's an equivalent where you are.
posted by cgg at 7:14 PM on August 5
On Edit: dang.. saw you mention euros. I assume SniffSpot is a north american thing, but maybe there's an equivalent where you are.
posted by cgg at 7:14 PM on August 5
I've used the swamp cooler vest and zip vest from ruffwear - seems to help. Basically, you wet the vest, put it on dog before walk on hot day. Depending on how hot/dry it is, you may need to re-wet it at some point. Provides evaporative cooling.
Also, inside after walk, stick cooling vest on dog, set up box fan on the floor, encourage dog to eat a nice cool treat in front of fan - that will really amplify evaporative cooling effects.
Paw pads are important for temperature regulation. I've seen it recommended that wetting the paw pads in particular can help with dog cooling.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:17 PM on August 5
Also, inside after walk, stick cooling vest on dog, set up box fan on the floor, encourage dog to eat a nice cool treat in front of fan - that will really amplify evaporative cooling effects.
Paw pads are important for temperature regulation. I've seen it recommended that wetting the paw pads in particular can help with dog cooling.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:17 PM on August 5
"They have thick fur and pant for a long time after every walk, now that they can't take a dip in the lake."
Have a groomer shave them? Lots of dogs get their coat shaved off for the summer.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:55 PM on August 5
Have a groomer shave them? Lots of dogs get their coat shaved off for the summer.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:55 PM on August 5
You say that you're at a loss for why your relationship with your landlord deteriorated. Your prior MeFi question gave some strong hints.
When there was a leak on Christmas Day, you texted your landlord, "what concerns us is that the ceiling will come down at some point - isn’t that right?" On the spectrum of potential ways to discuss a leak with your landlord, that's on the dramatic end. Then your partner texted the landlord "Your family agrees with us", suggesting that the landlord's own son is against him. Your landlord expressed a negative reaction to both those messages.
You said "nothing irreparable" happened over Christmas, but you don't get to be the sole arbitrator of what's reparable or irreparable to a relationship. Your landlord has free will. If he decides that those messages caused irreparable harm in his mind, you have to respect that.
Now you're saying that him not letting your dogs swim in the lake is akin to forcing you to commit animal abuse. It seems that you may be minimizing your own actions and dramatizing your landlord's actions. Your landlord can probably pick up on that attitude.
You asked how to deal with your own feelings about this. Are you expecting the landlord to treat you like family, not just a tenant? A family member will always forgive you even if you say hurtful things in the heat of the moment. They'll treat your pets like their own pets. They would never switch permanently to addressing you using your last name. But your landlord's boundaries are pretty normal for a landlord. Did you go into this relationship thinking you would become a surrogate family, only to discover that the other side thinks of it as a tenant-landlord situation?
posted by cheesecake at 9:18 PM on August 5 [17 favorites]
When there was a leak on Christmas Day, you texted your landlord, "what concerns us is that the ceiling will come down at some point - isn’t that right?" On the spectrum of potential ways to discuss a leak with your landlord, that's on the dramatic end. Then your partner texted the landlord "Your family agrees with us", suggesting that the landlord's own son is against him. Your landlord expressed a negative reaction to both those messages.
You said "nothing irreparable" happened over Christmas, but you don't get to be the sole arbitrator of what's reparable or irreparable to a relationship. Your landlord has free will. If he decides that those messages caused irreparable harm in his mind, you have to respect that.
Now you're saying that him not letting your dogs swim in the lake is akin to forcing you to commit animal abuse. It seems that you may be minimizing your own actions and dramatizing your landlord's actions. Your landlord can probably pick up on that attitude.
You asked how to deal with your own feelings about this. Are you expecting the landlord to treat you like family, not just a tenant? A family member will always forgive you even if you say hurtful things in the heat of the moment. They'll treat your pets like their own pets. They would never switch permanently to addressing you using your last name. But your landlord's boundaries are pretty normal for a landlord. Did you go into this relationship thinking you would become a surrogate family, only to discover that the other side thinks of it as a tenant-landlord situation?
posted by cheesecake at 9:18 PM on August 5 [17 favorites]
I also sort of like the idea of reasoning with the landlord, though I'm not hopeful about that and wouldn't be brave enough to talk face-to-face at this point.
I normally favor approaches like that but in this case I think your lawyer is right and you should absolutely minimize any communications or other exposure area to a "choleric person" whose motivations you don't understand* and who you have a history of not knowing how to communicate well with, and who is in a position to make life much harder for you.
Just focus all your energy on moving out asap.
* Except that from his perspective you are squatting forcibly on his property and screwing over his son (who is probably also affected by the housing crisis) and it's only thanks to eviction laws that you're still there. From his perspective, maybe it's not really impossible for you to actually find another place, maybe you're just being picky and entitled about where you're willing to move to in a way that makes him furious. From his perspective, maybe he's the one whose good will has been betrayed.
If you had a history of knowing how to talk him down and restore warmth and so on that would be one thing, but if you had those skills your relationship would have been back to normal in January. So just focus on leaving already. Any communications with him should be alone the lines of "We're so sorry" and "we know this is a ridiculous headache for you" and "we'll be gone as soon as humanly possible", because your goal is to not be sued. Do not try to ask him for concessions to make your stay more pleasant when his goal is to end your stay.
posted by trig at 2:11 AM on August 6 [17 favorites]
I normally favor approaches like that but in this case I think your lawyer is right and you should absolutely minimize any communications or other exposure area to a "choleric person" whose motivations you don't understand* and who you have a history of not knowing how to communicate well with, and who is in a position to make life much harder for you.
Just focus all your energy on moving out asap.
* Except that from his perspective you are squatting forcibly on his property and screwing over his son (who is probably also affected by the housing crisis) and it's only thanks to eviction laws that you're still there. From his perspective, maybe it's not really impossible for you to actually find another place, maybe you're just being picky and entitled about where you're willing to move to in a way that makes him furious. From his perspective, maybe he's the one whose good will has been betrayed.
If you had a history of knowing how to talk him down and restore warmth and so on that would be one thing, but if you had those skills your relationship would have been back to normal in January. So just focus on leaving already. Any communications with him should be alone the lines of "We're so sorry" and "we know this is a ridiculous headache for you" and "we'll be gone as soon as humanly possible", because your goal is to not be sued. Do not try to ask him for concessions to make your stay more pleasant when his goal is to end your stay.
posted by trig at 2:11 AM on August 6 [17 favorites]
What I would do would involve dumping a bucket of water over the dogs. If there are two of you it would be easy. Otherwise you'd have to make two trips to bring the buckets out, as you can't handle two leashes and two buckets of water at the same time. But if you are making two trips that means you can use larger buckets.
I'd do this out of sight of your landlord tho, if I could, because he is now in a headspace where just seeing you feels like you are offending and causes his blood pressure to rise.
Good luck with finding a new place to live as soon as possible!
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:50 AM on August 6 [1 favorite]
I'd do this out of sight of your landlord tho, if I could, because he is now in a headspace where just seeing you feels like you are offending and causes his blood pressure to rise.
Good luck with finding a new place to live as soon as possible!
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:50 AM on August 6 [1 favorite]
Maybe I'm actually asking more about the human conflict or how to deal with my own feelings about this, and less about the dogs.
In this post you clearly have ascribed some feeling to the dogs that really are unlikely to exist. Of course they were in the habit of going in the lake and enjoyed it, but if you start giving them cheese when you bypass the lake, they will want the cheese. Dogs are pretty great that way and they have a safe and loving home and walks with you.
Similarly you are grieving a relationship with your landlord that hasn’t existed for months and maybe mostly didn’t. Small time landlords (which the celling incident really sounds like) are people who are usually clumsily taking an asset they own and trying to earn money from it…sometimes for profit, sometimes because they are trying to keep a property in the family or to retire to or create enough passive income for trips, etc. Most landlords like that do it badly at least some of the time (I say this having watched my parents do it and myself having rented out the basement of my first house for 2 years.) There’s an entire large industry and TV shows out there telling people it’s so quick and easy to get rich on renting out property when it’s actually shitty hard work.
The relationship you have with landlords is you pay them to live in their property. And then whatever laws you have in your area. It’s really key to depersonalize that relationship, because a) they have and b) it’s over. Do I wish for you it was different? Sure, but it’s not. Every hour you spend energy on this is a waste. It’s like you were at the grocery store and they were out of sourdough bread and you spent your time wondering why they didn’t save you some, you shop there all the time, when you could be getting it down the road. Of course your home feels more personal and the power dynamic are different, but economically, it’s the same relationship.
If you really want to write a comforting narrative here it is: when you escalated the Christmas water leak, on Christmas, your landlord realized they are extremely tired of being a landlord and not only having to fix leaks on Xmas but deal with tenants’ feelings about it, multiple texts, etc. This probably came after a series of tiny things you may have no idea about - maybe worries about maintenance or watching the carpet get worn or or or, you have no idea. But your landlord got tired of renting to non-family and having to be professional (ish) about it.
Now your presence is keeping your landlord in this unwanted job. For what, almost 8 months?* They probably are asking people for advice about it. Some of the advice they are getting is, I guarantee you, lousy advice. The guy who fixes their car or some friend who owns a triplex probably said they should start taking things away like lake access or “make it less comfortable “ for you. There is all kinds of terrible info out there. They want out, and until that happens, they will only be less rational and more likely to listen to bad advice.
This is not the ethical highest ground, but they are desperate. The resentment you are seeing is that they still have to be formal landlords until you leave. Absolutely nothing you can do or say will make it better for them until you find a new place. So go keep looking for that sourdough.
* even though they chose this and my sympathy is limited, the period of time between issuing an eviction and it happening is awful all around.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:33 AM on August 6 [8 favorites]
In this post you clearly have ascribed some feeling to the dogs that really are unlikely to exist. Of course they were in the habit of going in the lake and enjoyed it, but if you start giving them cheese when you bypass the lake, they will want the cheese. Dogs are pretty great that way and they have a safe and loving home and walks with you.
Similarly you are grieving a relationship with your landlord that hasn’t existed for months and maybe mostly didn’t. Small time landlords (which the celling incident really sounds like) are people who are usually clumsily taking an asset they own and trying to earn money from it…sometimes for profit, sometimes because they are trying to keep a property in the family or to retire to or create enough passive income for trips, etc. Most landlords like that do it badly at least some of the time (I say this having watched my parents do it and myself having rented out the basement of my first house for 2 years.) There’s an entire large industry and TV shows out there telling people it’s so quick and easy to get rich on renting out property when it’s actually shitty hard work.
The relationship you have with landlords is you pay them to live in their property. And then whatever laws you have in your area. It’s really key to depersonalize that relationship, because a) they have and b) it’s over. Do I wish for you it was different? Sure, but it’s not. Every hour you spend energy on this is a waste. It’s like you were at the grocery store and they were out of sourdough bread and you spent your time wondering why they didn’t save you some, you shop there all the time, when you could be getting it down the road. Of course your home feels more personal and the power dynamic are different, but economically, it’s the same relationship.
If you really want to write a comforting narrative here it is: when you escalated the Christmas water leak, on Christmas, your landlord realized they are extremely tired of being a landlord and not only having to fix leaks on Xmas but deal with tenants’ feelings about it, multiple texts, etc. This probably came after a series of tiny things you may have no idea about - maybe worries about maintenance or watching the carpet get worn or or or, you have no idea. But your landlord got tired of renting to non-family and having to be professional (ish) about it.
Now your presence is keeping your landlord in this unwanted job. For what, almost 8 months?* They probably are asking people for advice about it. Some of the advice they are getting is, I guarantee you, lousy advice. The guy who fixes their car or some friend who owns a triplex probably said they should start taking things away like lake access or “make it less comfortable “ for you. There is all kinds of terrible info out there. They want out, and until that happens, they will only be less rational and more likely to listen to bad advice.
This is not the ethical highest ground, but they are desperate. The resentment you are seeing is that they still have to be formal landlords until you leave. Absolutely nothing you can do or say will make it better for them until you find a new place. So go keep looking for that sourdough.
* even though they chose this and my sympathy is limited, the period of time between issuing an eviction and it happening is awful all around.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:33 AM on August 6 [8 favorites]
do you pay the water bill?
lawn sprinklers may be an option. although you would need to co-ordinate with other tenants since the back yard is shared.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 7:39 AM on August 6
lawn sprinklers may be an option. although you would need to co-ordinate with other tenants since the back yard is shared.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 7:39 AM on August 6
This is also a bit gratuitous advice but if each landlord is getting hundreds of applications, putting your own ad out is also not rational, because why on earth would any of them be looking at ads for tenants? To me that reads like you still aren’t taking in the situation non-emotionally…like you’re writing warm fuzzy ads about how great your family is as tenants when you’re in a very economically-driven market.
In my limited experience (but it might be worth an ask giving your general area!) what you need to secure a place in a hot market is to be the fastest and easiest tenant to say yes to - call early (set up notifications for new ads?) and show up with a folder of everything..references from past landlords, proof of income, cashier’s check or ready to e-transfer whatever deposit + pet deposit is legal in your area right then if you can sign the lease. (This is very locally driven so again, seek specific advice.)
posted by warriorqueen at 7:44 AM on August 6 [9 favorites]
In my limited experience (but it might be worth an ask giving your general area!) what you need to secure a place in a hot market is to be the fastest and easiest tenant to say yes to - call early (set up notifications for new ads?) and show up with a folder of everything..references from past landlords, proof of income, cashier’s check or ready to e-transfer whatever deposit + pet deposit is legal in your area right then if you can sign the lease. (This is very locally driven so again, seek specific advice.)
posted by warriorqueen at 7:44 AM on August 6 [9 favorites]
Ideas instead:
A bucket of water.
A water bottle, spray (mister) bottle, or a water gun. Sure it's less water than a hose, but it's refreshing.
Borrow someone's fancy water backpack (camel back?), so you can carry water a bit easier, and just use it to hydrate or spray you all down.
posted by Elysum at 8:06 AM on August 6
A bucket of water.
A water bottle, spray (mister) bottle, or a water gun. Sure it's less water than a hose, but it's refreshing.
Borrow someone's fancy water backpack (camel back?), so you can carry water a bit easier, and just use it to hydrate or spray you all down.
posted by Elysum at 8:06 AM on August 6
I understand he's annoyed that we aren't succeeding in finding a new place, but the housing crisis is very, very real. We do look at places, we display our interest, we follow up in polite messages. We send out tons of requests for showings, and we often don't even hear back because landlords are overwhelmed by dozens or even hundreds of messages in just a few hours. We put out our own ad and constantly remind friends and family that we're looking.
Following up on what warriorqueen wrote, this isn't really the time to "display interest" or follow up politely. When looking for places in hot markets, I used to go in prepared to say "I want this place" immediately while actually there viewing it. Even that didn't always work, but not doing that was impossible. And I wasn't really able to offer higher prices than what was being asked, but if you are at all able to do that then strongly consider it. Some people in crazy markets don't even wait to view the place. It can't be a leisurely process.
Have you tried working with an agent? It's expensive and can suck but if it helps you get a place then you should do it.
Our landlord's perspective is that we should move in with family or find a studio apartment, anything to make sure we leave. We can't afford to move twice, and we don't even have family with the necessary space.
Your landlord's suggestion about a studio apartment might realistically be hard for you given the dogs, but it actually gives you some room to negotiate: Maybe instead of trying to drag you to court they'd be willing to give you or lend you some or all of the moving costs for an intermediate move if it means it would get you out of their hair by, like, the end of the month. It could be a win-win situation. If you want to try this route then investigate options and costs and come to him with a very concrete proposal. Even so, you'd need to make sure you have the ability to communicate in a way that comes across as you doing your absolute best to vacate the premises given your limited means, not you trying to shake him down. Do consult with your lawyer before trying this.
He keeps saying his son urgently needs our place. But the son already lives in the house, as well, just in a smaller apartment. I get that he wants a bigger place. We're trying to move out! But the urgency is fabricated.
You know what? Tell yourself it's real. You have no idea what the inside story is; there may in fact be actual urgency. And even if there isn't - they gave you three months to move out back in January, and now it's August, so after seven months of course he's not going to say "take your time, no problem, what's an extra year or two between friends."
posted by trig at 8:14 AM on August 6 [9 favorites]
Following up on what warriorqueen wrote, this isn't really the time to "display interest" or follow up politely. When looking for places in hot markets, I used to go in prepared to say "I want this place" immediately while actually there viewing it. Even that didn't always work, but not doing that was impossible. And I wasn't really able to offer higher prices than what was being asked, but if you are at all able to do that then strongly consider it. Some people in crazy markets don't even wait to view the place. It can't be a leisurely process.
Have you tried working with an agent? It's expensive and can suck but if it helps you get a place then you should do it.
Our landlord's perspective is that we should move in with family or find a studio apartment, anything to make sure we leave. We can't afford to move twice, and we don't even have family with the necessary space.
Your landlord's suggestion about a studio apartment might realistically be hard for you given the dogs, but it actually gives you some room to negotiate: Maybe instead of trying to drag you to court they'd be willing to give you or lend you some or all of the moving costs for an intermediate move if it means it would get you out of their hair by, like, the end of the month. It could be a win-win situation. If you want to try this route then investigate options and costs and come to him with a very concrete proposal. Even so, you'd need to make sure you have the ability to communicate in a way that comes across as you doing your absolute best to vacate the premises given your limited means, not you trying to shake him down. Do consult with your lawyer before trying this.
He keeps saying his son urgently needs our place. But the son already lives in the house, as well, just in a smaller apartment. I get that he wants a bigger place. We're trying to move out! But the urgency is fabricated.
You know what? Tell yourself it's real. You have no idea what the inside story is; there may in fact be actual urgency. And even if there isn't - they gave you three months to move out back in January, and now it's August, so after seven months of course he's not going to say "take your time, no problem, what's an extra year or two between friends."
posted by trig at 8:14 AM on August 6 [9 favorites]
We're trying to move out! But the urgency is fabricated.
From the various updates, it sounds as if your landlord terminated the lease and you have not vacated the place in the contractually agreed termination period. So the landlord has now had to start eviction procedures. You benefit from the fact that there seem to be significant tenant protections in your jurisdiction that mean eviction is time consuming. So you may not feel this as keenly as somebody in a jurisdiction where they would be escorted off the premises next week .... but please take a step back ... this is urgent and the urgency is not fabricated. The landlord's plans for future use do not determine if this is urgent, it is urgent because you are in breach of contract already.
Please re-consider both how you frame this and how you have approached the search, because it is clear your strategies to find a new place have not been working. Even if you think this is not relevant for your jurisdiction - if the market in your price range is as tight as you say I can guarantee you that for every place you have viewed, there were people ready to commit on the spot, with all relevant information, lease application fees and deposits ready to go. They are the least effort for the landlord to sign up and they get the lease. Especially if you're not able to offer more rent, that is the only thing you can do to be the most desirable applicant.
Especially as a prospective tenant who will not get a reference from their current landlord.
You should also figure out how you want to spin that if your reasons to move come up. The most innocent way to do that would probably be, 'private landlord, terminated lease because needs place for family'.
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:47 AM on August 6 [11 favorites]
From the various updates, it sounds as if your landlord terminated the lease and you have not vacated the place in the contractually agreed termination period. So the landlord has now had to start eviction procedures. You benefit from the fact that there seem to be significant tenant protections in your jurisdiction that mean eviction is time consuming. So you may not feel this as keenly as somebody in a jurisdiction where they would be escorted off the premises next week .... but please take a step back ... this is urgent and the urgency is not fabricated. The landlord's plans for future use do not determine if this is urgent, it is urgent because you are in breach of contract already.
Please re-consider both how you frame this and how you have approached the search, because it is clear your strategies to find a new place have not been working. Even if you think this is not relevant for your jurisdiction - if the market in your price range is as tight as you say I can guarantee you that for every place you have viewed, there were people ready to commit on the spot, with all relevant information, lease application fees and deposits ready to go. They are the least effort for the landlord to sign up and they get the lease. Especially if you're not able to offer more rent, that is the only thing you can do to be the most desirable applicant.
Especially as a prospective tenant who will not get a reference from their current landlord.
You should also figure out how you want to spin that if your reasons to move come up. The most innocent way to do that would probably be, 'private landlord, terminated lease because needs place for family'.
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:47 AM on August 6 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the additional practical solutions. Vests, in particular, I hadn't thought about. Buckets of water are a very good idea. I think the dogs might like that, and it wouldn't be too difficult to get water down the stairs. I also like the idea of other access points, but I think the entire lake is on private property (it's small, more like a glorified pond. You can walk around it within five minutes).
[Stop reading here if you're not interested in the bigger story. This next part is long, and I feel bad for cluttering up the internet. But I wanted to respond to individual comments, and it's a bit cathartic to type it all out.]
The Leak
To clear up some misunderstandings: I didn't randomly text my landlord "Hey, there's a leak, won't the ceiling come down soon???!!!" We had a longer conversation and it started out very polite. He was defensive from the start, assuming that we'd create problems when in all our time here, we'd never before asked for anything to be fixed. The landlady even acknowledged that they'd reacted strongly because past tenants have had little patience with repairs. Fair enough. All I wanted was for him to look at the problem. He lives downstairs, so while it's annoying to deal with this stuff around Christmas (December 23rd, to be precise), I was asking for just a few minutes of his time. I was not being forceful, and we didn't exchange more than five or so messages.
In the process of our conversation, he said we needed to "just deal with this inconvenience". I responded that I don't feel inconvenienced, only worried about the house. This was true. I don't care about some buckets in my living room. As a tenant in my country, you're required by law to make your landlord aware not just of the problem, but also of its severity. We have a lovely long word for it: Schadensminderungspflicht. When tenants don't alert the building manager/owner or don't make clear what the problem is, insurance companies can deny claims. Water does make ceilings come down. I don't mean that the entire room collapses, I'm only talking about plaster falling. Maybe this is a translation issue, but I used the correct term for "the water might find its way through by damaging the ceiling" in my language. It just happens to be the same term we use for an entire ceiling collapsing.
Anyway, as soon as we sent him a video of the leak, he very much wanted to come look at it himself and relieve the water pressure. And then he continued to berate us for "panicking", saying he knows we have "fears" (we're a bit anxious, if you couldn't tell, but not about things like water damage or the building falling down...), full of contempt and neither friendly nor professional. At some point in his monologue, my husband interrupted, saying something like "Your family doesn't agree", because we'd gotten texts indicating that other family members actually were worried about the water. No, saying that wasn't wise. I've mentioned that this landlord gets loud and contemptuous when he's angry, and it's hard to stay calm when someone's yelling at you. So in this case, I actually don't think my husband deserves all the blame. When you start a hostile conversation, don't be surprised at critical responses. The landlord also, when he gave us the three months' notice a couple weeks later, called my partner shallow, said that he's empty inside, and stated he'd be glad to see him go. There were no other disputes between the two and my husband did not retaliate then or after. When our landlord's angry, he stays angry. Remember, this was all after a year and a half of a happy community, lots of helping, and way before any breach of contract.
The Dogs
Now you're saying that him not letting your dogs swim in the lake is akin to forcing you to commit animal abuse.
No. I said that this is not the case several times. I said it feels like I'm being forced to hurt my dogs, and I asked for help reframing the situation because I think that internal reaction is not helpful. Feelings are not always an accurate representation of reality. Please don't misrepresent what I said to make it sound more dramatic. I don't think that's fair.
Boundaries
Did you go into this relationship thinking you would become a surrogate family, only to discover that the other side thinks of it as a tenant-landlord situation?
Quite the opposite. We're introverts, but when we moved in, we were told there would be regular game nights, dinners, singing, etc. We took part in all that and enjoyed most of it. We received (and bought) Christmas and birthday presents. We celebrated New Year's Eve together. We went on outings and were told we could always enter their apartment - even when they weren't home, to borrow eggs or whatever. When we dropped in downstairs to say hi, they were welcoming and we'd have tea together. We worked on dozens of gardening projects as a group and were expected to independently fix things around the backyard as well as take responsibility for the chickens or the upstairs tenants (who need help with rides or language issues occasionally). We've sat in the sauna together. So no. This landlord did not have normal landlord boundaries. And yes, we were friends. We shared details about family struggles and mental health stuff (on both sides). We were pretty close, especially me and the landlord's wife, but also the community as a whole.
Mental Health
I think I didn't acknowledge, until now, how hurt I feel. Perhaps especially as I was severely depressed around Christmas, which they had learned about in the course of normal conversations. Losing my home felt (and feels) extremely threatening. The last time I moved, I burnt out and was basically in bed for six months. I'm worried this will happen again. At the start, whenever I wanted to look for apartments, I got intense suicidal thoughts. That's over, fortunately. But I still feel overwhelmed and I really am doing the best I can with the apartment hunt. To make up for the part I can't do, I've asked for outside support.
The Apartment Search
We took out an ad because we figured that might be a better way to reach older landlords. This has worked really well for me in the past. I don't think it took away much from our focus on searching, it only took a few minutes. And yes, we have alerts for not just the perfect apartments, but also any acceptable ones. We've committed to apartments at viewings. We just haven't been accepted.
Legal Stuff
When I say the urgency is fabricated, I'm not talking about our need to get out of here. That feels extremely urgent. It might be important to note that it's not legal to terminate a rental contract just because you feel like it, around here. The landlord needs a reason. I think that's called "Just Cause"? His reason is that his son needs a bigger place, and that "need", especially its urgency, is highly debatable. I don't want to debate it with him, and obviously we can't stay here anyway. But it's very easy to manipulate me into feeling sorry for everyone, and I've decided that in this case, the landlord and his son are unreliable narrators. If there's a court case, I'll let the judge determine if there was any real urgency. In any case, we'll definitely take responsibility for the three months (May, June, July) we've made the son wait. But we're being blamed for a whole year of "uncertain living conditions" for this guy because...not sure. He moved in downstairs exactly a year ago. He decided he'd like our apartment at some point. The totally standard three months' notice are apparently our fault, as well as the first six months, when he hadn't even decided to move upstairs.
The landlord's plans for future use do not determine if this is urgent, it is urgent because you are in breach of contract already.
In this specific case, the landlord's plan for future use determine if we even are in breach of contract.
Fortunately, we'll get a glowing reference from our previous landlord, whom we're still in contact with.
Thanks
All your responses, even the ones I disagreed with, gave me food for thought. This whole experience is so stressful for everyone around, and I'm ruminating on it a lot. Thinking about the different perspectives on this thread feels a bit more helpful.
posted by toucan at 1:07 PM on August 6 [1 favorite]
[Stop reading here if you're not interested in the bigger story. This next part is long, and I feel bad for cluttering up the internet. But I wanted to respond to individual comments, and it's a bit cathartic to type it all out.]
The Leak
To clear up some misunderstandings: I didn't randomly text my landlord "Hey, there's a leak, won't the ceiling come down soon???!!!" We had a longer conversation and it started out very polite. He was defensive from the start, assuming that we'd create problems when in all our time here, we'd never before asked for anything to be fixed. The landlady even acknowledged that they'd reacted strongly because past tenants have had little patience with repairs. Fair enough. All I wanted was for him to look at the problem. He lives downstairs, so while it's annoying to deal with this stuff around Christmas (December 23rd, to be precise), I was asking for just a few minutes of his time. I was not being forceful, and we didn't exchange more than five or so messages.
In the process of our conversation, he said we needed to "just deal with this inconvenience". I responded that I don't feel inconvenienced, only worried about the house. This was true. I don't care about some buckets in my living room. As a tenant in my country, you're required by law to make your landlord aware not just of the problem, but also of its severity. We have a lovely long word for it: Schadensminderungspflicht. When tenants don't alert the building manager/owner or don't make clear what the problem is, insurance companies can deny claims. Water does make ceilings come down. I don't mean that the entire room collapses, I'm only talking about plaster falling. Maybe this is a translation issue, but I used the correct term for "the water might find its way through by damaging the ceiling" in my language. It just happens to be the same term we use for an entire ceiling collapsing.
Anyway, as soon as we sent him a video of the leak, he very much wanted to come look at it himself and relieve the water pressure. And then he continued to berate us for "panicking", saying he knows we have "fears" (we're a bit anxious, if you couldn't tell, but not about things like water damage or the building falling down...), full of contempt and neither friendly nor professional. At some point in his monologue, my husband interrupted, saying something like "Your family doesn't agree", because we'd gotten texts indicating that other family members actually were worried about the water. No, saying that wasn't wise. I've mentioned that this landlord gets loud and contemptuous when he's angry, and it's hard to stay calm when someone's yelling at you. So in this case, I actually don't think my husband deserves all the blame. When you start a hostile conversation, don't be surprised at critical responses. The landlord also, when he gave us the three months' notice a couple weeks later, called my partner shallow, said that he's empty inside, and stated he'd be glad to see him go. There were no other disputes between the two and my husband did not retaliate then or after. When our landlord's angry, he stays angry. Remember, this was all after a year and a half of a happy community, lots of helping, and way before any breach of contract.
The Dogs
Now you're saying that him not letting your dogs swim in the lake is akin to forcing you to commit animal abuse.
No. I said that this is not the case several times. I said it feels like I'm being forced to hurt my dogs, and I asked for help reframing the situation because I think that internal reaction is not helpful. Feelings are not always an accurate representation of reality. Please don't misrepresent what I said to make it sound more dramatic. I don't think that's fair.
Boundaries
Did you go into this relationship thinking you would become a surrogate family, only to discover that the other side thinks of it as a tenant-landlord situation?
Quite the opposite. We're introverts, but when we moved in, we were told there would be regular game nights, dinners, singing, etc. We took part in all that and enjoyed most of it. We received (and bought) Christmas and birthday presents. We celebrated New Year's Eve together. We went on outings and were told we could always enter their apartment - even when they weren't home, to borrow eggs or whatever. When we dropped in downstairs to say hi, they were welcoming and we'd have tea together. We worked on dozens of gardening projects as a group and were expected to independently fix things around the backyard as well as take responsibility for the chickens or the upstairs tenants (who need help with rides or language issues occasionally). We've sat in the sauna together. So no. This landlord did not have normal landlord boundaries. And yes, we were friends. We shared details about family struggles and mental health stuff (on both sides). We were pretty close, especially me and the landlord's wife, but also the community as a whole.
Mental Health
I think I didn't acknowledge, until now, how hurt I feel. Perhaps especially as I was severely depressed around Christmas, which they had learned about in the course of normal conversations. Losing my home felt (and feels) extremely threatening. The last time I moved, I burnt out and was basically in bed for six months. I'm worried this will happen again. At the start, whenever I wanted to look for apartments, I got intense suicidal thoughts. That's over, fortunately. But I still feel overwhelmed and I really am doing the best I can with the apartment hunt. To make up for the part I can't do, I've asked for outside support.
The Apartment Search
We took out an ad because we figured that might be a better way to reach older landlords. This has worked really well for me in the past. I don't think it took away much from our focus on searching, it only took a few minutes. And yes, we have alerts for not just the perfect apartments, but also any acceptable ones. We've committed to apartments at viewings. We just haven't been accepted.
Legal Stuff
When I say the urgency is fabricated, I'm not talking about our need to get out of here. That feels extremely urgent. It might be important to note that it's not legal to terminate a rental contract just because you feel like it, around here. The landlord needs a reason. I think that's called "Just Cause"? His reason is that his son needs a bigger place, and that "need", especially its urgency, is highly debatable. I don't want to debate it with him, and obviously we can't stay here anyway. But it's very easy to manipulate me into feeling sorry for everyone, and I've decided that in this case, the landlord and his son are unreliable narrators. If there's a court case, I'll let the judge determine if there was any real urgency. In any case, we'll definitely take responsibility for the three months (May, June, July) we've made the son wait. But we're being blamed for a whole year of "uncertain living conditions" for this guy because...not sure. He moved in downstairs exactly a year ago. He decided he'd like our apartment at some point. The totally standard three months' notice are apparently our fault, as well as the first six months, when he hadn't even decided to move upstairs.
The landlord's plans for future use do not determine if this is urgent, it is urgent because you are in breach of contract already.
In this specific case, the landlord's plan for future use determine if we even are in breach of contract.
Fortunately, we'll get a glowing reference from our previous landlord, whom we're still in contact with.
Thanks
All your responses, even the ones I disagreed with, gave me food for thought. This whole experience is so stressful for everyone around, and I'm ruminating on it a lot. Thinking about the different perspectives on this thread feels a bit more helpful.
posted by toucan at 1:07 PM on August 6 [1 favorite]
Either he owns the lake, in which case he has rented space to you that includes access to the lake, or it is a public lake, in which case he has no business trying to keep any person or canine out of the lake.
posted by yclipse at 6:40 PM on August 6
posted by yclipse at 6:40 PM on August 6
Your update makes it much clearer why this situation is emotionally tough. Your landlord set up a dual relationship. You were simultaneously in a landlord-tenant relationship and also in a close-knit friend/community relationship. Those expectations can be very different. The law gives clear guidelines for landlord/tenant (for example, if your rent is late by even 1 day, you must pay a $XX late fee), but friends expect flexibility and favors ("Hey, I'm low on funds, can I pay you next week?").
It reminds me of bosses who claim to be "a family" with their work team and frequently socialize together outside of work. Then their subordinates ask for family-like favors ("I'm going to be a few hours late to work because I had a horrible fight with my girlfriend"), and the boss is surprised at the unprofessionalism. When it suits them, the boss feels justified falling back to the boss/subordinate role ("We had an unprofitable year, and I have to lay off three team members"). Then some subordinates are stunned that their "family" would disown them heartlessly.
Dual relationships can work, but it takes strong communication skills, which your landlord doesn't have.
I found it really interesting to read your update, because the community you described sounds idyllic to me. The chickens, sauna, singing, borrowing eggs, tea time, gardening projects ... wow! I can imagine myself jumping in without realizing the risks.
There are intentional communities that have thought about the challenges of how to resolve conflicts and how to ask a member to leave the community. I believe members are given warnings and multiple chances. Your landlord sort of set up an intentional community but also retained his full power as a landlord who makes unilateral decisions.
posted by cheesecake at 5:06 AM on August 7 [1 favorite]
It reminds me of bosses who claim to be "a family" with their work team and frequently socialize together outside of work. Then their subordinates ask for family-like favors ("I'm going to be a few hours late to work because I had a horrible fight with my girlfriend"), and the boss is surprised at the unprofessionalism. When it suits them, the boss feels justified falling back to the boss/subordinate role ("We had an unprofitable year, and I have to lay off three team members"). Then some subordinates are stunned that their "family" would disown them heartlessly.
Dual relationships can work, but it takes strong communication skills, which your landlord doesn't have.
I found it really interesting to read your update, because the community you described sounds idyllic to me. The chickens, sauna, singing, borrowing eggs, tea time, gardening projects ... wow! I can imagine myself jumping in without realizing the risks.
There are intentional communities that have thought about the challenges of how to resolve conflicts and how to ask a member to leave the community. I believe members are given warnings and multiple chances. Your landlord sort of set up an intentional community but also retained his full power as a landlord who makes unilateral decisions.
posted by cheesecake at 5:06 AM on August 7 [1 favorite]
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