"Once" versus "Wicked"
June 27, 2024 2:19 PM Subscribe
Is there a name for a musical where the character only sings when a real person would actually be singing (for example, "Once" versus "Wicked")?
In a lot of musicals, characters will sing a conversation that, if it happened in real life, would actually be spoken- like "Popular" in Wicked would be two teenagers talking in a bedroom.
Or, characters sing their inner monologues - like "On My Own" in Les Miz, which is a dramatization of Eponine silently thinking as she walks.
Or the characters sing the exposition to the audience, like the first song in Hamilton, which, in real life, would be a speech or a written memoir, if Burr and Hamilton had really decided to tell their story.
In all of those examples, if the scene happened in real life, the characters would actually be talking, or writing, or thinking silently, not singing.
But in some musicals, the characters are musicians, and when they sing, it's because their character would actually be singing in real life. They never use music as a surreal narrative device to serve the author, they using music because they're musicians. And even if the music is giving the audience some exposition or some conversations happen in songs, it's because that's how that character would actually work out their own thoughts, or flirt with another musician, or whatever, in real life.
Is there a name for this kind of "non-surreal musical"?
Are there more examples, on stage or screen, besides Once?
A showbiz musical like Showboat comes close, but I believe some of the love songs, like "You Are Love", would actually be private spoken conversations.
Ditto Cabaret - the Emcee's songs, and Sally's song "Maybe This Time", fit the "realistic" criteria since they're nightclub performances. But in real life, Cliff wouldn't sing at all, because he's not a musician, so his songs are "surreal".
The final scenes in High Fidelity (Jack Black concert) and Juno (driveway duet) are "realistic" songs, because the characters are actually on stage performing, or singing a duet as a date activity. But they're just one song in the whole film... I'm looking for shows that have LOTS of songs like that.
In a lot of musicals, characters will sing a conversation that, if it happened in real life, would actually be spoken- like "Popular" in Wicked would be two teenagers talking in a bedroom.
Or, characters sing their inner monologues - like "On My Own" in Les Miz, which is a dramatization of Eponine silently thinking as she walks.
Or the characters sing the exposition to the audience, like the first song in Hamilton, which, in real life, would be a speech or a written memoir, if Burr and Hamilton had really decided to tell their story.
In all of those examples, if the scene happened in real life, the characters would actually be talking, or writing, or thinking silently, not singing.
But in some musicals, the characters are musicians, and when they sing, it's because their character would actually be singing in real life. They never use music as a surreal narrative device to serve the author, they using music because they're musicians. And even if the music is giving the audience some exposition or some conversations happen in songs, it's because that's how that character would actually work out their own thoughts, or flirt with another musician, or whatever, in real life.
Is there a name for this kind of "non-surreal musical"?
Are there more examples, on stage or screen, besides Once?
A showbiz musical like Showboat comes close, but I believe some of the love songs, like "You Are Love", would actually be private spoken conversations.
Ditto Cabaret - the Emcee's songs, and Sally's song "Maybe This Time", fit the "realistic" criteria since they're nightclub performances. But in real life, Cliff wouldn't sing at all, because he's not a musician, so his songs are "surreal".
The final scenes in High Fidelity (Jack Black concert) and Juno (driveway duet) are "realistic" songs, because the characters are actually on stage performing, or singing a duet as a date activity. But they're just one song in the whole film... I'm looking for shows that have LOTS of songs like that.
A Star is Born?
posted by olopua at 2:28 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]
posted by olopua at 2:28 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]
Best answer: One term that might help is diegesis / diegetic. (On preview: damn, zamboni beat me to it.)
So in Cabaret Sally Bowles's cabaret numbers are diegetic; Cliff's "Why Should I Wake Up?" is non-diegetic.
In Show Boat, Julie's songs are diegetic; Gaylord Ravenal's are non-diegetic.
In Guys and Dolls, Adelaide's Hot Box numbers are diegetic, as is the Mission band's marching song. Sky and Sarah's songs are non-diegetic.
In Kiss Me Kate, the songs that take place within the musical being staged are diegetic, as is "Wunderbar"; but "So In Love" and other songs sung by the characters "offstage" are not.
Some musicals take it a step further and have a prologue that essentially declares "we are singers and actors, and we're going to sing you this story." Which, in a way, turns the whole show diegetic. (Examples that occur to me are A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum and to some extent Hadestown.)
One film musical that takes place within the constraints you mention (diegetic music only) is Mrs Henderson Presents (2005), a film about the first London revue to feature full onstage nudity. CWs for nudity (obviously) and in-period culturally appropriative music hall moments (no blackface, brief depictions of "Native American" and "Egyptian"-themed acts done by white actors.)
posted by Pallas Athena at 2:50 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]
So in Cabaret Sally Bowles's cabaret numbers are diegetic; Cliff's "Why Should I Wake Up?" is non-diegetic.
In Show Boat, Julie's songs are diegetic; Gaylord Ravenal's are non-diegetic.
In Guys and Dolls, Adelaide's Hot Box numbers are diegetic, as is the Mission band's marching song. Sky and Sarah's songs are non-diegetic.
In Kiss Me Kate, the songs that take place within the musical being staged are diegetic, as is "Wunderbar"; but "So In Love" and other songs sung by the characters "offstage" are not.
Some musicals take it a step further and have a prologue that essentially declares "we are singers and actors, and we're going to sing you this story." Which, in a way, turns the whole show diegetic. (Examples that occur to me are A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum and to some extent Hadestown.)
One film musical that takes place within the constraints you mention (diegetic music only) is Mrs Henderson Presents (2005), a film about the first London revue to feature full onstage nudity. CWs for nudity (obviously) and in-period culturally appropriative music hall moments (no blackface, brief depictions of "Native American" and "Egyptian"-themed acts done by white actors.)
posted by Pallas Athena at 2:50 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]
Best answer: As everyone noted above, the word you're looking for is "diegetic", which refers to music of any sort and not just songs sung (for example, if there's a radio on stage and it's playing music as background during a scene, that's also diegetic).
A good musical that's mostly, but not entirely, diegetic is School of Rock.
(Pallas Athena: the fact that you reference "Why should I wake up?" gives me joy, as that's not been in the script for Cabaret since the Mendes revival took it out in the early 90's)
posted by griffey at 2:53 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]
A good musical that's mostly, but not entirely, diegetic is School of Rock.
(Pallas Athena: the fact that you reference "Why should I wake up?" gives me joy, as that's not been in the script for Cabaret since the Mendes revival took it out in the early 90's)
posted by griffey at 2:53 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]
The Lars von Trier movie "Dancer in the Dark" features a lot of musical numbers which are the daydreams of the main character and singer (played by Bjork!), but the very last song at the startling climax, is an *a capella* song that appears to be diegetic and is heard by an unsympathetic audience. This is a very sad movie, a good movie I'll never watch again.
posted by Sunburnt at 3:10 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]
posted by Sunburnt at 3:10 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]
Griffey. Did you ever hear Bert Convy's rendition of that song. He was the original Clifford Bradshaw when it opened on Broadway
Fame came later as a game show host. A beautiful voice.
posted by Czjewel at 3:39 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]
Fame came later as a game show host. A beautiful voice.
posted by Czjewel at 3:39 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]
Happy to bring this up for the second time this week: The Night of the Hunter. It's full of songs, and a lot are things the characters would sing in that situation: spirituals, lullabies, and the like. (Maybe all the songs? It's been a while since I've seen it.)
posted by hydrophonic at 3:40 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]
posted by hydrophonic at 3:40 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]
A lot of The Sound of Music is diagetic singing.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:01 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:01 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]
For a more "layperson" word for this: I guess in my mind, a show that has music that's only where music would actually be in real life would be called a play (that happens to have music). As opposed to a musical, meaning a play where more than that is sung.
Like on TV, you wouldn't call Schitt's Creek a musical even though there are multiple "real world" performances of music in various episodes (Patrick serenading David early on is the one example I have, although later then they stage Cabaret and at least two of the musical numbers are shown, so that gets messier I suppose).
posted by tubedogg at 4:02 PM on June 27
Like on TV, you wouldn't call Schitt's Creek a musical even though there are multiple "real world" performances of music in various episodes (Patrick serenading David early on is the one example I have, although later then they stage Cabaret and at least two of the musical numbers are shown, so that gets messier I suppose).
posted by tubedogg at 4:02 PM on June 27
Your question immediately made me think of two favorite TV musical episodes, so not full musicals, and the characters arent singing because they are musicians but they definitely know they are singing and that the songs are different from normal speech. In both of these cases the singing is caused by an external factor.
Once More with Feeling from Buffy the Vampire Slayer - one of the best episodes of a favorite TV show.
Subspace Rhapsody from Stange New Worlds did something similar and wonderful.
posted by Illusory contour at 4:05 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]
Once More with Feeling from Buffy the Vampire Slayer - one of the best episodes of a favorite TV show.
Subspace Rhapsody from Stange New Worlds did something similar and wonderful.
posted by Illusory contour at 4:05 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]
There's the whole Let's Put On A Show! trope, in which the characters sing and dance as part of the story. I Love Lucy did episodes that included a number at Ricky's club, for instance.
posted by SPrintF at 4:43 PM on June 27
posted by SPrintF at 4:43 PM on June 27
White Christmas, and I suspect some other classic film musicals, effectively fit this - there's a lot of singing (and dancing) but the entire plot is about the characters being singers and dancers, even though many of the songs do move the action along. The characters all sing more-or-less when a real person might, albeit sometimes in a very accommodating version of reality where nobody says "hey, would you cut it out? I'm trying to have dinner."
posted by Tomorrowful at 5:08 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]
posted by Tomorrowful at 5:08 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]
This production of The Heart of Robin Hood that I saw in Toronto seems to fit into the genre you describe. I wonder if any other mefite saw this show.
posted by Scout405 at 5:10 PM on June 27
posted by Scout405 at 5:10 PM on June 27
Hedwig and the Angry Inch uses a rock and roll show as a framing device for Hedwig to share her life story, so I believe all of the songs would be considered diegetic. Also it's fantastic show, highly recommend!
posted by platinum at 5:26 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]
posted by platinum at 5:26 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]
Chicago sort of takes place as a show-within-a-show vaudeville/jazz peformance, the film version especially leans into that format where the spoken dialogue scenes happen in the real world, but the songs have the characters performing on a stage for an audience ("Mr. Cellophane" with John C. Reilly as a sad clown; "We Both Reached for the Gun," with Renee Zellweger as a ventriloquist dummy and Richard Gere as the ventriloquist).
posted by castlebravo at 8:49 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]
posted by castlebravo at 8:49 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]
The thing that comes to mind is The Drowsy Chaperone, which is about a guy listening to a record of an old musical, so in some sense the songs are diegetic: the songs you hear in the audience are the songs he hears listening to "The Drowsy Chaperone." But within the musical he is listening to, they are entirely nondiegetic. So I don't quite know if it does what you're after. (The Drowsy Chaperone is delightful and underrated.)
posted by less-of-course at 10:37 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]
posted by less-of-course at 10:37 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]
Siter Act 1 and 2 meet this, the Pitch Perfect movies, O Brother Where Art Thou (it doesn't have songs throughout but does have a few). Some music biopics Walk the Line, Bohemian Rhapsody, This is Spinal Tap sort of do this. Sing and Sing 2, the songs are always performances. A Mighty Wind, maybe 8 Mile?
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:07 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:07 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]
You may be looking for a "Play with Music."
Stereophonic, this year's Tony award winner for best play, is one such. The play is set in a recording studio in the 70's, and the many songs are supposed to be original songs by that band.
End of the Rainbow, from 2012, told the story of Judy Garland at the end of her career; the songs were all selections from her concerts.
I'm not clear on exactly what makes one thing a Musical, and another thing a Play with Music. Generally, Musicals have more songs, and expect the story to be told primarily by those songs, or at least integrated very closely with them. In the Play with Music, the book/scenes carry most of the story, and the music supports that. Also, to some degree, I suppose it's a strategic decision by the producers, since Plays and Musicals are separate Tony Award categories, they would want to be categorized where they have the best chance of winning.
Also, for musicals, maybe Jersey Boys? Any jukebox musical that's about the band themselves rather than using the songs to tell a separate story will have some of what you're looking for.
posted by hovey at 6:11 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]
Stereophonic, this year's Tony award winner for best play, is one such. The play is set in a recording studio in the 70's, and the many songs are supposed to be original songs by that band.
End of the Rainbow, from 2012, told the story of Judy Garland at the end of her career; the songs were all selections from her concerts.
I'm not clear on exactly what makes one thing a Musical, and another thing a Play with Music. Generally, Musicals have more songs, and expect the story to be told primarily by those songs, or at least integrated very closely with them. In the Play with Music, the book/scenes carry most of the story, and the music supports that. Also, to some degree, I suppose it's a strategic decision by the producers, since Plays and Musicals are separate Tony Award categories, they would want to be categorized where they have the best chance of winning.
Also, for musicals, maybe Jersey Boys? Any jukebox musical that's about the band themselves rather than using the songs to tell a separate story will have some of what you're looking for.
posted by hovey at 6:11 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]
I think God Help the Girl is like this? The characters are musicians and talk about writing the songs you hear in the movie. I think there are some songs in it that don't fit your criteria, though.
posted by birthday cake at 8:58 AM on June 28
posted by birthday cake at 8:58 AM on June 28
Response by poster: Diegetic is the word! Too bad it's so obscure, I was hoping to use it in a mainstream context but it's way too Greek / exclusive / un-parse-able to be helpful for my purposes, haha. I'll just say "realistic" instead.
Thanks to those who supplied it, and also for all the great reccos and examples!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:31 AM on June 28
Thanks to those who supplied it, and also for all the great reccos and examples!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:31 AM on June 28
Tv show Julie and the Phantoms largely has their music as actual performances from actual bands. Only a couple of songs seems to be fantasy
posted by Jacen at 5:53 PM on June 28
posted by Jacen at 5:53 PM on June 28
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posted by Melismata at 2:26 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]