Rescued puppy lunging and snapping
June 5, 2024 6:28 PM Subscribe
The first day (yesterday) went great. Today, she lunged and snarled at me several times. How do we decide whether to keep her?
(No pet tax, sorry, it's been a rough day) A ~4 month old puppy, probably a lab-pit mix, was dumped at a local business last week with only a leash and a bowl, no microchip. We visited her several times and brought her home yesterday.
This morning, I had her on a 15' lead and was walking with her on our property. She was sniffing some bushes about 10 feet away from me, then suddenly she turned around, ran at me and lunged, snarling. I had a very hard time getting her to settle and she nipped me at one point, drawing blood. She did it again tonight - we were walking around and suddenly she started biting at my pants legs. I tried to correct her by pulling her away from me, but she lunged and snarled again - although she did calm down more quickly and I think I did a better job at staying calm. And just before we came inside, she got the "zoomies" but ended the run by launching herself at me.
We've had puppies before and have dealt with behavioral stuff, but never aggression like that. (That is aggression, right?) Is this something that can be trained out of her, or are we better off cutting our losses? Besides the obvious of not replicating those conditions when I take her outside tomorrow, is there anything I can do or be looking for to help us make this decision?
I'm exhausted and disheartened, and I don't know if I can keep her if I don't trust her at this young age. On the other hand, I would love to work with her if it's not throwing good time and money after a lost cause. Thanks in advance in your advice. Please be kind.
(No pet tax, sorry, it's been a rough day) A ~4 month old puppy, probably a lab-pit mix, was dumped at a local business last week with only a leash and a bowl, no microchip. We visited her several times and brought her home yesterday.
This morning, I had her on a 15' lead and was walking with her on our property. She was sniffing some bushes about 10 feet away from me, then suddenly she turned around, ran at me and lunged, snarling. I had a very hard time getting her to settle and she nipped me at one point, drawing blood. She did it again tonight - we were walking around and suddenly she started biting at my pants legs. I tried to correct her by pulling her away from me, but she lunged and snarled again - although she did calm down more quickly and I think I did a better job at staying calm. And just before we came inside, she got the "zoomies" but ended the run by launching herself at me.
We've had puppies before and have dealt with behavioral stuff, but never aggression like that. (That is aggression, right?) Is this something that can be trained out of her, or are we better off cutting our losses? Besides the obvious of not replicating those conditions when I take her outside tomorrow, is there anything I can do or be looking for to help us make this decision?
I'm exhausted and disheartened, and I don't know if I can keep her if I don't trust her at this young age. On the other hand, I would love to work with her if it's not throwing good time and money after a lost cause. Thanks in advance in your advice. Please be kind.
That is 100% not normal behavior and if it were me, I would return her. Mouthiness is normal; biting pant legs is normal; snarling is definitely not and you should be very concerned, especially considering her breed. If she bites someone else, it will subject you to criminal prosecution and civil suit. Regardless of whether you win or lose the criminal case, you will have to pay for an attorney. Your homeowner's insurance will, if all goes well, defend you in the civil suit and pay damages but then will likely cancel your policy. (Do you know if pit bulls are excluded under your policy? You should check.) If your homeowner's finds a way out of covering you, the victim will go after your other assets. The dog may be seized and euthanized. It's no joke. There are a lot of nice dogs in the world. Why saddle yourself with this one?
posted by HotToddy at 9:11 PM on June 5 [9 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 9:11 PM on June 5 [9 favorites]
Ooof. This is hard. I know you're feeling shocked and disappointed, and that's fair. I would be very hesitant, though, to describe this puppy as a "lost cause" after one weird day very early in a new home. On the other hand, living with an untreatably aggressive dog can be stressful and heartbreaking even if you are deeply committed to the dog. I myself don't think I could do it. Do you have it in you to explore treatment options for a limited time and then let the dog go if you must (knowing that a pit mix surrendered to a shelter for aggression is at high risk of being euthanized)? Because that's what I would recommend--getting the dog to the vet for a thorough checkup and to a good, non-punishment-based trainer for an evaluation. But if you know your heart can't take the possibility of bonding with this dog some as you work with them and then having to send it away to possible death, it might be better to take them to the shelter now.
If she bites someone else, it will subject you to criminal prosecution and civil suit.
This kind of fear-mongering, on the other hand, is not helpful. Civil suit? Possibly, if the dog does a lot of damage and informal resolution isn't possible. Criminal prosecution? Extremely unlikely under these kind of circumstances (at least in the U.S.).
There are a lot of nice dogs in the world. Why saddle yourself with this one?
This is a hell of a question to ask about an intelligent being that's clearly suffered at the hands of our own species.
posted by praemunire at 9:42 PM on June 5 [25 favorites]
If she bites someone else, it will subject you to criminal prosecution and civil suit.
This kind of fear-mongering, on the other hand, is not helpful. Civil suit? Possibly, if the dog does a lot of damage and informal resolution isn't possible. Criminal prosecution? Extremely unlikely under these kind of circumstances (at least in the U.S.).
There are a lot of nice dogs in the world. Why saddle yourself with this one?
This is a hell of a question to ask about an intelligent being that's clearly suffered at the hands of our own species.
posted by praemunire at 9:42 PM on June 5 [25 favorites]
I rescued a dog a little over a year old. Never trained him out of biting (despite very good behaviorist help), just trained ourselves not to usually put him in a position to bite. Even so, he didn't bite me the first time until a few months. When I first brought him home, he didn't bite or snarl. Was just a bit scared but happy to run around and be pet.
Pitbulls are, by far, the most dangerous breed. Please don't put nearby children in danger or have people around who haven't consented to the risk, like mail delivery, by having one.
posted by flimflam at 9:58 PM on June 5 [7 favorites]
Pitbulls are, by far, the most dangerous breed. Please don't put nearby children in danger or have people around who haven't consented to the risk, like mail delivery, by having one.
posted by flimflam at 9:58 PM on June 5 [7 favorites]
This kind of fear-mongering, on the other hand, is not helpful. Civil suit? Possibly, if the dog does a lot of damage and informal resolution isn't possible. Criminal prosecution? Extremely unlikely under these kind of circumstances (at least in the U.S.).
I speak from experience as a victim of such an attack. All of these things happened, and in the U.S.
posted by HotToddy at 10:03 PM on June 5 [13 favorites]
I speak from experience as a victim of such an attack. All of these things happened, and in the U.S.
posted by HotToddy at 10:03 PM on June 5 [13 favorites]
I'm sorry that happened to you. Nonetheless, very few dog bites (most especially non-fatal ones!) lead to criminal prosecution of the human. If there was a civil suit in your case, it's because you brought it. That may or may not have been justified, but, again, most dog bites don't even result in civil lawsuits (though it's certainly substantially more reasonable to be concerned about the possibility than about criminal prosecution).
posted by praemunire at 10:20 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 10:20 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
Don’t sacrifice the quality of your life for some random biting dog. It will ruin your life.
posted by cakebatter at 10:41 PM on June 5 [7 favorites]
posted by cakebatter at 10:41 PM on June 5 [7 favorites]
- If she hasn't been to a vet, do that. Infection and pain can spur aggression.
-- If you don't want to do that, it's okay. You're exhausted and unnerved. You have experience with puppies, and you know this is strange behavior. It's okay if this isn't the dog for your family.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:29 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
-- If you don't want to do that, it's okay. You're exhausted and unnerved. You have experience with puppies, and you know this is strange behavior. It's okay if this isn't the dog for your family.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:29 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
I'm a vet, I would 100% take this dog back. I'm sorry.
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 11:43 PM on June 5 [26 favorites]
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 11:43 PM on June 5 [26 favorites]
It sounds like you know very little about this puppy. You're guessing at her breed, right? You know nothing about experiences she's had. (A person who dumps a dog in this way might have exposed her to really, really awful stuff.) You don't know her age. Is the 4 months estimate a vet's assessment?
Ideally, you would get a force-free trainer. One who distances themselves from using leash jerks, choking, "taps", kicks, shock collars, prong collars, water guns, and loud noises like rattling cans filled with coins. But I know trainers are expensive and often difficult to find. And I understand you'd like a quick answer just to know whether it makes sense to keep this dog.
Since you're dealing with a puppy, you probably aren't in danger or even scared of her at this point. So I would, actually, replicate the conditions. Have someone else film you. Send the video to a trainer (this will be much cheaper and quicker than a home visit. I'm happy to look at it, too, if you want to MeMail me.) You might find that you, yourself can learn a lot from a video like that already. For example, "snarling" sort of implies intent. Might be better to call it "growling" until you can make an educated guess regarding triggers.
I've taught puppy classes, and I can tell you one thing for sure: Just like human "puppies", young dogs displaying aggression is normal. It's often laughed at because it's kind of cute. But in the training classes, we very, very often had people come in with their arms and legs covered in bruises or their hands scratched up from puppy teeth punctures. It drove some of them to despair. It was usually over after a month or two, much sooner with good management and training. We tried to help people learn what happens right before a puppy attack, and how to redirect when it's happening. Puppies often get overstimulated after eating or peeing, and very often after coming in from the rain/after a bath. They're so inexperienced that a human saying "No" can be scary, so they often become overstimulated when they've grabbed something they're not supposed to have, like a kitchen sponge or delicious manure. The sight of another dog can be overstimulating, same as the smell of prey (maybe that's what happened in your first scenario?). Movement is also very exciting, and biting children, cats, or pant legs is sort of a classic. Puppy brains are not developed enough to handle frustration, so many puppies flip out when they can't get through a fence to greet another dog, or when their human won't give them their dinner quickly enough.
There are dogs who never show aggression toward humans, but most puppies definitely have moments of frustration/anger/overstimulation, and they can absolutely take that out on their family members. Humans suffer from the Lassie Syndrome, believing that dogs are heroic, pure, and filled with only love. That's wrong. Dogs are more like us than we think. So ask yourself...would you be this alarmed at a preschooler who was abandoned and adopted just yesterday, then acted out by hitting you today? Real question. I don't know, I wasn't there to see the severity of your puppy's behaviour.
I currently have a dog sleeping next to me, Nutmeg. Not mine, but a relative's. When Nutmeg was a puppy, she would quite aggressively growl whenever she was picked up while dozing. We were definitely concerned, but kept her. She's six now, and while she's an anxious dog and sometimes lunges at strangers, one of the things that's wonderful about her: She would walk through fire for her family. She has never bitten anyone, and I don't think she's growled at her family since she was six months old. There's a lot of stuff she doesn't enjoy - vet visits, baths, getting her nails trimmed, when her bone is taken away - but she endures it all patiently, always calm and loving. She literally just wants to snuggle. She's one of the most even-tempered dogs I've known, in that respect. And I'm so glad my relatives kept her, because a sensitive dog like her would have been lost in a more impatient or punitive family.
My first dog growled at me over a bone when she was only nine weeks old. She then proceeded to spend the next twelve years never growling at a human again (and rarely at dogs). She was very much like Lassie, but her little puppy brain still couldn't handle giving up a tasty treat.
All in all, I think my main point is that you don't know enough yet. Neither do any of the responders on this thread, so the absolute statements are a bit surprising.
If you want to give it a shot, call in support because it makes sense that you're overwhelmed. And while you're waiting, make sure you always have a favourite toy and treats on you. It's not a good idea, long term, to play or treat whenever puppies bite - that would be reinforcing. But while you're figuring this out, it's okay to lean on these crutches. And incidentally, seeing if she can be redirected is a good way to find out how serious this aggression actually is. Is it about you? Or is it about the need to bite something, now?
Pushing or pulling her away, btw, will increase the arousal and make calm less likely. If you need to protect your body and can't redirect, it works well to loop the leash around a pole and walk away until she's calm(not out of sight!). If there is no pole, stand on the leash, with it short enough to make jumping impossible. (Hopefully, your puppy is wearing a harness, because both these methods are dangerous with collars.) If there's biting indoors, leave the room (but stay close enough that puppy can see and hear you to prevent adult seperation anxiety. Baby gates are great for this.
Good luck. And if you can't keep her, please try to find her a good home. Maybe MetaFilter can help with that? I wouldn't blame you at all if you chose not to keep her, but being in kennels at such an impressionable age is a disaster and could (probably would) ruin her for life.
posted by toucan at 11:54 PM on June 5 [24 favorites]
Ideally, you would get a force-free trainer. One who distances themselves from using leash jerks, choking, "taps", kicks, shock collars, prong collars, water guns, and loud noises like rattling cans filled with coins. But I know trainers are expensive and often difficult to find. And I understand you'd like a quick answer just to know whether it makes sense to keep this dog.
Since you're dealing with a puppy, you probably aren't in danger or even scared of her at this point. So I would, actually, replicate the conditions. Have someone else film you. Send the video to a trainer (this will be much cheaper and quicker than a home visit. I'm happy to look at it, too, if you want to MeMail me.) You might find that you, yourself can learn a lot from a video like that already. For example, "snarling" sort of implies intent. Might be better to call it "growling" until you can make an educated guess regarding triggers.
I've taught puppy classes, and I can tell you one thing for sure: Just like human "puppies", young dogs displaying aggression is normal. It's often laughed at because it's kind of cute. But in the training classes, we very, very often had people come in with their arms and legs covered in bruises or their hands scratched up from puppy teeth punctures. It drove some of them to despair. It was usually over after a month or two, much sooner with good management and training. We tried to help people learn what happens right before a puppy attack, and how to redirect when it's happening. Puppies often get overstimulated after eating or peeing, and very often after coming in from the rain/after a bath. They're so inexperienced that a human saying "No" can be scary, so they often become overstimulated when they've grabbed something they're not supposed to have, like a kitchen sponge or delicious manure. The sight of another dog can be overstimulating, same as the smell of prey (maybe that's what happened in your first scenario?). Movement is also very exciting, and biting children, cats, or pant legs is sort of a classic. Puppy brains are not developed enough to handle frustration, so many puppies flip out when they can't get through a fence to greet another dog, or when their human won't give them their dinner quickly enough.
There are dogs who never show aggression toward humans, but most puppies definitely have moments of frustration/anger/overstimulation, and they can absolutely take that out on their family members. Humans suffer from the Lassie Syndrome, believing that dogs are heroic, pure, and filled with only love. That's wrong. Dogs are more like us than we think. So ask yourself...would you be this alarmed at a preschooler who was abandoned and adopted just yesterday, then acted out by hitting you today? Real question. I don't know, I wasn't there to see the severity of your puppy's behaviour.
I currently have a dog sleeping next to me, Nutmeg. Not mine, but a relative's. When Nutmeg was a puppy, she would quite aggressively growl whenever she was picked up while dozing. We were definitely concerned, but kept her. She's six now, and while she's an anxious dog and sometimes lunges at strangers, one of the things that's wonderful about her: She would walk through fire for her family. She has never bitten anyone, and I don't think she's growled at her family since she was six months old. There's a lot of stuff she doesn't enjoy - vet visits, baths, getting her nails trimmed, when her bone is taken away - but she endures it all patiently, always calm and loving. She literally just wants to snuggle. She's one of the most even-tempered dogs I've known, in that respect. And I'm so glad my relatives kept her, because a sensitive dog like her would have been lost in a more impatient or punitive family.
My first dog growled at me over a bone when she was only nine weeks old. She then proceeded to spend the next twelve years never growling at a human again (and rarely at dogs). She was very much like Lassie, but her little puppy brain still couldn't handle giving up a tasty treat.
All in all, I think my main point is that you don't know enough yet. Neither do any of the responders on this thread, so the absolute statements are a bit surprising.
If you want to give it a shot, call in support because it makes sense that you're overwhelmed. And while you're waiting, make sure you always have a favourite toy and treats on you. It's not a good idea, long term, to play or treat whenever puppies bite - that would be reinforcing. But while you're figuring this out, it's okay to lean on these crutches. And incidentally, seeing if she can be redirected is a good way to find out how serious this aggression actually is. Is it about you? Or is it about the need to bite something, now?
Pushing or pulling her away, btw, will increase the arousal and make calm less likely. If you need to protect your body and can't redirect, it works well to loop the leash around a pole and walk away until she's calm(not out of sight!). If there is no pole, stand on the leash, with it short enough to make jumping impossible. (Hopefully, your puppy is wearing a harness, because both these methods are dangerous with collars.) If there's biting indoors, leave the room (but stay close enough that puppy can see and hear you to prevent adult seperation anxiety. Baby gates are great for this.
Good luck. And if you can't keep her, please try to find her a good home. Maybe MetaFilter can help with that? I wouldn't blame you at all if you chose not to keep her, but being in kennels at such an impressionable age is a disaster and could (probably would) ruin her for life.
posted by toucan at 11:54 PM on June 5 [24 favorites]
How experienced are you with dogs? I feel like that’s an important piece to evaluate this question. Can you tell a snarl from a growl? A play fight from a real fight? Actual aggression versus brattiness?
posted by corb at 3:51 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
posted by corb at 3:51 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
I would say
1: Vet. If she's in pain, you need to find out.
2: Private session with a trainer (per toucan, above).
Then you'll have two professional opinions to help you decide what's best for her.
If surrendered to a shelter, a biting dog-- even a puppy-- will likely be euthanised. If the behaviour persists to the degree where you cannot keep her, you may wish to do her the kindness of letting her pass quietly with you.
posted by Pallas Athena at 3:57 AM on June 6 [5 favorites]
1: Vet. If she's in pain, you need to find out.
2: Private session with a trainer (per toucan, above).
Then you'll have two professional opinions to help you decide what's best for her.
If surrendered to a shelter, a biting dog-- even a puppy-- will likely be euthanised. If the behaviour persists to the degree where you cannot keep her, you may wish to do her the kindness of letting her pass quietly with you.
posted by Pallas Athena at 3:57 AM on June 6 [5 favorites]
You don't say where you adopted her - a rescue or a bigger organization. A larger organization may very well provide help with a behaviorist (possibly for free) if you are willing to work with her. I agree with taking her to the vet first - who can also verify her age, generally by looking at her teeth, and then contacting wherever you got her.
toucan's offer to look at a video of your little girl is wonderful. Take them up on it!
posted by dancinglamb at 4:30 AM on June 6
toucan's offer to look at a video of your little girl is wonderful. Take them up on it!
posted by dancinglamb at 4:30 AM on June 6
I echo the advice to get a video, see a vet and a trainer.
My dog, a St. Bernard/Bernese Mountain dog cross who is just one now, exhibited some of this behaviour (I think…a lot depends on the precise body language) as well. We had already been working with a trainer. He is not aggressive (he’s actually now sometimes the dog my trainer borrows to test new dogs.) he is, however, all working dog - Bernese were originally cattle herders and he was born to livestock guardian parents, and so he’s smart and independent and communicated through nips (think directing cattle.)
He also was a slightly fearful guy from the start. We had a lot of work as a puppy:
- giving him naps because when he was awake, he was all alert
- taking him for SHORT walks and adventures - like drive to place, get out, sniff/try new surface, car, home
- build our relationship - remember your puppy is still decompressing
- give him leadership
I won’t lie, it has been a year of hard work with our trainer, in group classes, and having (at 8 months) 80 lbs of dog and teeth hurdle at you is no fun he only really ever came at me and my husband. (We couldn’t get him to do it with our trainer.). In my dog’s case the worst of it started after a coyote encounter where he was herding me back, and continued through a kind of leash reactivity. And it is scary. He is getting very reliable now though.
I hesitate to give advice though. I think you need a pro, so you can be comfortable with any decision from there.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:06 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
My dog, a St. Bernard/Bernese Mountain dog cross who is just one now, exhibited some of this behaviour (I think…a lot depends on the precise body language) as well. We had already been working with a trainer. He is not aggressive (he’s actually now sometimes the dog my trainer borrows to test new dogs.) he is, however, all working dog - Bernese were originally cattle herders and he was born to livestock guardian parents, and so he’s smart and independent and communicated through nips (think directing cattle.)
He also was a slightly fearful guy from the start. We had a lot of work as a puppy:
- giving him naps because when he was awake, he was all alert
- taking him for SHORT walks and adventures - like drive to place, get out, sniff/try new surface, car, home
- build our relationship - remember your puppy is still decompressing
- give him leadership
I won’t lie, it has been a year of hard work with our trainer, in group classes, and having (at 8 months) 80 lbs of dog and teeth hurdle at you is no fun he only really ever came at me and my husband. (We couldn’t get him to do it with our trainer.). In my dog’s case the worst of it started after a coyote encounter where he was herding me back, and continued through a kind of leash reactivity. And it is scary. He is getting very reliable now though.
I hesitate to give advice though. I think you need a pro, so you can be comfortable with any decision from there.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:06 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Several comments removed. Please keep in mind that AskMetaFilter answers should focus on answering the OP's question and not on other users.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:09 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:09 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
I want to second all of the suggestions of vet + trainer (vet first, because most trainers will want to know they are working with a vaccinated dog). Acting out on the second day could just be transitional--the cases of aggression that my friends have dealt were more often a few weeks in, when the dog was starting to find its place in the pack hierarchy of the household. Also, the fact that the pup was biting at your pants leg makes me think there might be some herding dog in there. Australian cattle dogs are very common mixes in most places where you find pit bulls and labs, and you won't necessarily see a breed resemblance but the herding/nipping behavior is extremely strong.
Also, four months or so seems early enough to re-direct whatever behavior is going on--provided a vet thinks there's not an underlying issue. And the vet might give you a different age estimate, as well.
I'm sorry this is freaking you out and I'm glad you're taking it seriously. But I think you'd do well to explore a little more before making any big decisions. And thank you for trying to help a pup who's had a bumpy start so far!
posted by helpthebear at 6:55 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
Also, four months or so seems early enough to re-direct whatever behavior is going on--provided a vet thinks there's not an underlying issue. And the vet might give you a different age estimate, as well.
I'm sorry this is freaking you out and I'm glad you're taking it seriously. But I think you'd do well to explore a little more before making any big decisions. And thank you for trying to help a pup who's had a bumpy start so far!
posted by helpthebear at 6:55 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
I have 25 years experiencing fostering out of some difficult situations and so for ME this would be somewhat annoying and super-worrying from a health perspective, but I would have a long checklist of steps to work (and none of them would involve "correction") before I made any major decisions.
Traumatized dogs don't have behavior problems in the first week because it is too early to decide, you assume they have trauma and/or they have medical problems and you work from those assumptions. Even a dog coming out of a decent situation is an unknown to you/your environment for minimum 3 months. Any dog you don't know yet IS potentially dangerous, it kind of depends on size how seriously you have to take it. Even a beloved pet of 10-15 years is potentially dangerous if they are hurt or ill or suffer a cognitive decline.
And even an extremely healthy well-adjusted 4mo puppy is...potentially a baffling little asshole. It's a tween. Sometimes even they don't know why they do what they do.
At one week, you have no idea what you're witnessing yet. Your description of being mauled by this dog reads entirely different to me - you're seeing a reaction, probably to something you can't see or smell, and she's freaking out and possibly trying to get YOU away from the Big Bad. You haven't really seen the reaction enough to know yet, and that's in part because you're walking an unfamiliar puppy on a fifteen foot lead, whaaat?? There's like half a dozen things really wrong with that, but number one is you've got no control and you cannot observe her every twitch. There's no way you can stop her from eating something she shouldn't, or engaging with a snake or broken bottle or poisoned rat, or other stuff you need to train out like poop-eating, on a long training lead that's meant for open-field training sessions.
If you don't get rid of her today, get a vet appointment and a harness and a sturdy six-foot lead. Start watching her like a science project so you can actually come away from odd behavior with some kind of possible cause-effect data. Like, she's not doing this because she saw it on TV, something is happening and because there's a bit of a pattern emerging - outside - there are almost certainly a bunch of clues you're missing. Dogs who've had to fend for themselves outside on city streets can have quite strange traumas and phobias, stuff you'd never think about, sometimes totally inanimate objects or smells.
Going forward, I would be walking her on a harness (or even a vest, like a "working dog" vest, for the thundershirt effect - we used to do with with our anxious bolter) and rip-proof lead, possibly with a hard plastic muzzle (in part to keep her from sticking her snoot into stuff that is then maybe scaring her), carrying high-value stinky treats (freeze-dried liver is easiest, but I am a sliced hot dog girl myself even though I then smell like hot dog all day). I'd take a second person with me whenever possible, and they'd be carrying heavy work gloves in case they need to glove up and help restrain.
She needs to get worn out, and with the perpetual motion machine of a puppy that's got to be long walks and big play sessions so you need to plan for these reactions to happen and how to move on from them so she can continue to get that exercise. You have to regard her as a deeply anxious dog right now, and an insecure dog who's only just figuring out she lives with you and you're probably not going to eat her and she doesn't know her place in your world yet. She doesn't know for sure if you're dangerous, and she also doesn't yet know if you're smart enough to keep yourself safe from all the dangers of the world or if that's her job.
As I always reminded myself with new-to-me dogs: I kidnapped them, as far as they are concerned, and am literally tying a rope to them to make them stay with me. They are at the very least wary of me and my world and my rules, and that's fair even though I know they more or less won the lottery with me. They don't know that yet, and I don't know what their sum total knowledge about people might be.
Additionally, I'd be starting super-easy trust training at home for confidence. I never end up clicker-training because I lose clickers, so I tend to tongue-click or pick a somewhat random "reward" nickname (my last round of dogs it was "Bunny!!" for whatever reason; cool people may pick a word in a foreign language or otherwise just not-frequently-otherwise-spoken word) and reward for the simplest things like saying 'sit' and treating when she just happens to sit, teach her 'touch' to touch her nose to your finger (and then work up to touching a thing so she touches it too, and then you work out to pointing and her figuring out what you're pointing at), whatever, just invent opportunities to succeed.
Reactive puppies (or traumatized puppies, or just exasperating puppies) don't have to become bad dogs. It's not written in the stars. Pit bulls and mixes aren't inherently any more personality-dangerous than any other dog of that size and muscle density. That's the thing about them, they're built like tow trucks and that makes them capable of extensive damage, but the same is true of a lot of dogs that don't have bad cultural reputations because they are associated with different people - you don't hear about all the hideously gruesome injuries a frightened or triggered greyhound can do until you spend time in greyhound circles, but they're often 5-6 feet tall standing up and their faces are made entirely of knives and they are prone to panic (and also needing to be pulled out of swimming pools and other "stuck" places a differently-shaped dog could jump from, meaning you have to stick your face into their knifeholes to rescue them), but greyhound breeding is almost entirely exclusive to commercial interests so there's maaaybe 1 grey out in the general population for every 500 big terriers.
As far as I am concerned you have a pretty normal totally workable problem, and if you go out on your next walk with the appropriate equipment and Plans for how you will handle any of the dozen common risks of walking a dog outdoors, and put your science eyes on to observe, I think you will have a different experience and a different perspective. Don't be on your phone (but have it within easy one-hand reach), don't have any audio playing, be watching and listening and smelling - to the best of your ability - really hard. There is almost certainly a solution to this, and it's definitely too soon to conclude there isn't.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:46 AM on June 6 [24 favorites]
Traumatized dogs don't have behavior problems in the first week because it is too early to decide, you assume they have trauma and/or they have medical problems and you work from those assumptions. Even a dog coming out of a decent situation is an unknown to you/your environment for minimum 3 months. Any dog you don't know yet IS potentially dangerous, it kind of depends on size how seriously you have to take it. Even a beloved pet of 10-15 years is potentially dangerous if they are hurt or ill or suffer a cognitive decline.
And even an extremely healthy well-adjusted 4mo puppy is...potentially a baffling little asshole. It's a tween. Sometimes even they don't know why they do what they do.
At one week, you have no idea what you're witnessing yet. Your description of being mauled by this dog reads entirely different to me - you're seeing a reaction, probably to something you can't see or smell, and she's freaking out and possibly trying to get YOU away from the Big Bad. You haven't really seen the reaction enough to know yet, and that's in part because you're walking an unfamiliar puppy on a fifteen foot lead, whaaat?? There's like half a dozen things really wrong with that, but number one is you've got no control and you cannot observe her every twitch. There's no way you can stop her from eating something she shouldn't, or engaging with a snake or broken bottle or poisoned rat, or other stuff you need to train out like poop-eating, on a long training lead that's meant for open-field training sessions.
If you don't get rid of her today, get a vet appointment and a harness and a sturdy six-foot lead. Start watching her like a science project so you can actually come away from odd behavior with some kind of possible cause-effect data. Like, she's not doing this because she saw it on TV, something is happening and because there's a bit of a pattern emerging - outside - there are almost certainly a bunch of clues you're missing. Dogs who've had to fend for themselves outside on city streets can have quite strange traumas and phobias, stuff you'd never think about, sometimes totally inanimate objects or smells.
Going forward, I would be walking her on a harness (or even a vest, like a "working dog" vest, for the thundershirt effect - we used to do with with our anxious bolter) and rip-proof lead, possibly with a hard plastic muzzle (in part to keep her from sticking her snoot into stuff that is then maybe scaring her), carrying high-value stinky treats (freeze-dried liver is easiest, but I am a sliced hot dog girl myself even though I then smell like hot dog all day). I'd take a second person with me whenever possible, and they'd be carrying heavy work gloves in case they need to glove up and help restrain.
She needs to get worn out, and with the perpetual motion machine of a puppy that's got to be long walks and big play sessions so you need to plan for these reactions to happen and how to move on from them so she can continue to get that exercise. You have to regard her as a deeply anxious dog right now, and an insecure dog who's only just figuring out she lives with you and you're probably not going to eat her and she doesn't know her place in your world yet. She doesn't know for sure if you're dangerous, and she also doesn't yet know if you're smart enough to keep yourself safe from all the dangers of the world or if that's her job.
As I always reminded myself with new-to-me dogs: I kidnapped them, as far as they are concerned, and am literally tying a rope to them to make them stay with me. They are at the very least wary of me and my world and my rules, and that's fair even though I know they more or less won the lottery with me. They don't know that yet, and I don't know what their sum total knowledge about people might be.
Additionally, I'd be starting super-easy trust training at home for confidence. I never end up clicker-training because I lose clickers, so I tend to tongue-click or pick a somewhat random "reward" nickname (my last round of dogs it was "Bunny!!" for whatever reason; cool people may pick a word in a foreign language or otherwise just not-frequently-otherwise-spoken word) and reward for the simplest things like saying 'sit' and treating when she just happens to sit, teach her 'touch' to touch her nose to your finger (and then work up to touching a thing so she touches it too, and then you work out to pointing and her figuring out what you're pointing at), whatever, just invent opportunities to succeed.
Reactive puppies (or traumatized puppies, or just exasperating puppies) don't have to become bad dogs. It's not written in the stars. Pit bulls and mixes aren't inherently any more personality-dangerous than any other dog of that size and muscle density. That's the thing about them, they're built like tow trucks and that makes them capable of extensive damage, but the same is true of a lot of dogs that don't have bad cultural reputations because they are associated with different people - you don't hear about all the hideously gruesome injuries a frightened or triggered greyhound can do until you spend time in greyhound circles, but they're often 5-6 feet tall standing up and their faces are made entirely of knives and they are prone to panic (and also needing to be pulled out of swimming pools and other "stuck" places a differently-shaped dog could jump from, meaning you have to stick your face into their knifeholes to rescue them), but greyhound breeding is almost entirely exclusive to commercial interests so there's maaaybe 1 grey out in the general population for every 500 big terriers.
As far as I am concerned you have a pretty normal totally workable problem, and if you go out on your next walk with the appropriate equipment and Plans for how you will handle any of the dozen common risks of walking a dog outdoors, and put your science eyes on to observe, I think you will have a different experience and a different perspective. Don't be on your phone (but have it within easy one-hand reach), don't have any audio playing, be watching and listening and smelling - to the best of your ability - really hard. There is almost certainly a solution to this, and it's definitely too soon to conclude there isn't.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:46 AM on June 6 [24 favorites]
This is puppy-raising on hard mode. It requires someone at the top of their game. You will have to take on the role of drill sergeant. If you have cats in the household, they will be at risk.
This may or may not be the kind of relationship you want with a pet. It is a whole project, and it's ok to know your limits and decide not to take it on.
It's better to get the puppy to someone better prepared to deal it, while he's young, than to realize later down the road, if it turns out to be beyond your capacity.
posted by dum spiro spero at 8:51 AM on June 6 [5 favorites]
This may or may not be the kind of relationship you want with a pet. It is a whole project, and it's ok to know your limits and decide not to take it on.
It's better to get the puppy to someone better prepared to deal it, while he's young, than to realize later down the road, if it turns out to be beyond your capacity.
posted by dum spiro spero at 8:51 AM on June 6 [5 favorites]
This is puppy-raising on hard mode.
This. If adopting a puppy is like moving into a house you know will require work, then adopting a dog that turns out to be a snarling, aggressive biter is like finding out your fixer-upper has foundation issues and a frame that is crooked... issues that are maybe fixable, but you have to decide if that is a level of commitment you think you can live up to or not.
A day or two isn't a lot, and I'd give it a bit longer, but yeah, this is a tall order for anyone. Make sure you're up for it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:28 AM on June 6 [5 favorites]
This. If adopting a puppy is like moving into a house you know will require work, then adopting a dog that turns out to be a snarling, aggressive biter is like finding out your fixer-upper has foundation issues and a frame that is crooked... issues that are maybe fixable, but you have to decide if that is a level of commitment you think you can live up to or not.
A day or two isn't a lot, and I'd give it a bit longer, but yeah, this is a tall order for anyone. Make sure you're up for it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:28 AM on June 6 [5 favorites]
Plz plz read and reread Lyn Never’s post! Its excellent.
Get a harness and a six foot leash. 15’ is way too long!
I won’t tell you what to do or not do with this puppy, but everyone I know who raised puppies acknowledges that they are bitey little terrorists. They are! I have friend with (tiny, moderate) scars from a bad puppy nip. Puppies have to learn mouthing control and they get easily overwhelmed.
As an anecdata point, we have a two year old labradoodle we got as an 8-week-old puppy and she would do stuff like this when free roaming our yard. She actually even still does — when she’s got the zoomies or high energy, she will make the craziest snarling noises and fully leap at us. She’s small so it’s not a huge deal but when she was much younger she absolutely bit us HARD a few times. We trained to redirect to a toy and she will still sometimes jump up at us when a fit comes on before she runs to grab a toy instead.
My dog is not your puppy, but this reads a lot like normal puppy behavior to me that is trainable. Puppies in general are also an IMMENSE amount of work — so if you don’t want a project on your hands, I would say to rehome this pup. If you’re on board with making the puppy a focal point of your life for the next year or so at least while you train them, I think this is most likely addressable.
posted by caitcadieux at 11:02 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
Get a harness and a six foot leash. 15’ is way too long!
I won’t tell you what to do or not do with this puppy, but everyone I know who raised puppies acknowledges that they are bitey little terrorists. They are! I have friend with (tiny, moderate) scars from a bad puppy nip. Puppies have to learn mouthing control and they get easily overwhelmed.
As an anecdata point, we have a two year old labradoodle we got as an 8-week-old puppy and she would do stuff like this when free roaming our yard. She actually even still does — when she’s got the zoomies or high energy, she will make the craziest snarling noises and fully leap at us. She’s small so it’s not a huge deal but when she was much younger she absolutely bit us HARD a few times. We trained to redirect to a toy and she will still sometimes jump up at us when a fit comes on before she runs to grab a toy instead.
My dog is not your puppy, but this reads a lot like normal puppy behavior to me that is trainable. Puppies in general are also an IMMENSE amount of work — so if you don’t want a project on your hands, I would say to rehome this pup. If you’re on board with making the puppy a focal point of your life for the next year or so at least while you train them, I think this is most likely addressable.
posted by caitcadieux at 11:02 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
I also want to recommend picking up Before and After Getting Your Puppy by Dr. Ian Dunbar. It’s a little heavy-handed but I found it really helpful. Something that he drills over and over is that puppies don’t get trained well, and then their ‘bad behavior’ (like biting) ends up getting them killed due to negligence on the owner’s part. Dogs bite and puppies need help learning what is and isn’t appropriate, and it’s all on you to maintain control of them and train their behavior. They don’t know the rules on their own.
posted by caitcadieux at 11:05 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
posted by caitcadieux at 11:05 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
You've got lots of good advice here, including seeing a vet and getting a muzzle. I'll add that you should get a hard plastic muzzle *before* seeing the vet and make sure the pup is comfortable with the muzzle and wearing it at the vet visit. Building comfort with the muzzle involves giving high value treats anytime the muzzle is put on with continued intermittent treat rewards while it's being worn. Out of an abundance of caution, I'd recommend having her wear the muzzle anytime you're on a walk (ideally on a 4-6 foot lead), out of the house, or around new people.
I'm so sorry you've found yourself in this situation. As someone who had to give up a fear aggressive foster dog, I know how hard it can be. Getting an expert opinion from a dog trainer will be really helpful in assessing the severity and prognosis of the biting behavior.
posted by massa intermedia at 12:55 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
I'm so sorry you've found yourself in this situation. As someone who had to give up a fear aggressive foster dog, I know how hard it can be. Getting an expert opinion from a dog trainer will be really helpful in assessing the severity and prognosis of the biting behavior.
posted by massa intermedia at 12:55 PM on June 6 [2 favorites]
One more thing to remember is that all members of the household need to commit to strictness in training. Consistency is key.
posted by dum spiro spero at 1:06 PM on June 6
posted by dum spiro spero at 1:06 PM on June 6
Response by poster: Hi all, thanks so much for your input and advice, and even your criticisms. We've had a lot to think about today. I got to speak to our vet this morning about the situation (took in our elderly cat for an unrelated issue - prognosis not great there, sigh) and she took it very seriously, especially because this pup looks like she will grow to be a large dog. She referred us on the spot to a veterinarian behaviorist and we have an appointment Tuesday. In the meantime, we are taking things slowly and calmly, on a short leash of course.
Additional thoughts welcome!
posted by Sweetie Darling at 2:02 PM on June 6 [15 favorites]
Additional thoughts welcome!
posted by Sweetie Darling at 2:02 PM on June 6 [15 favorites]
Response by poster: Another update: She did it again last evening. We were walking on a short leash and harness, and suddenly she started lunging at me. I pulled her away with the leash and she just kept coming at me. I guess my arm isn't quite long enough to keep her fully away because she ended up tearing my shirt at the waist with her teeth. It was really scary. Thankfully I had my phone with me and managed to call my husband, who came outside to take the dog away from me. It took him at least 10 minutes to subdue her, trying different techniques (while somehow staying blessedly calm). I picture the same scenario with my mom, or my daughter, or the neighbor's kid, or even me without a phone - and I don't think we can keep her. So now I think our conversation with the behaviorist is going to focus on whether and how we can re-home her ethically.
If you have any insights around this latest incident, I'd appreciate them.
I also wanted to add that I was so glad that several of you provided specific response techniques in your answers. I do think they helped me at least stay focused enough to be able to summon my husband's help.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 9:52 AM on June 9 [4 favorites]
If you have any insights around this latest incident, I'd appreciate them.
I also wanted to add that I was so glad that several of you provided specific response techniques in your answers. I do think they helped me at least stay focused enough to be able to summon my husband's help.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 9:52 AM on June 9 [4 favorites]
I'm so sorry, that must be very difficult. It's awesome that you're still going to the appointment instead of bailing on this dog.
About the latest incident: Think back. Can you remember any sounds or unusual situations right before? Also, do you remember what her ears and tail looked like? Was she making any noises?
Some more handling tricks that might help: One, use a leash with different length options so you can unclip the carabiner when you need to attach the dog to a pole/fence/tree immediately. Two, if your harness has a clip at the front, in the puppy's chest area, attaching her there will make it much easier to hold her at arm's length. And three, some puppies respond beautifully to a chasing game, so it works really well to attach a toy to the non-dog end of the leash. Then, when they get into unwanted emotional states like fear or frustration, start a game of chase. Caution, though. This sort of game is very exciting and has to be followed by a calm activity such as searching for treats in the grass. Otherwise, you're asking for crazy puppy piranha mode.
It sounds like you handled the situation very well, considering the difficult circumstances. I'm curious, did she keep trying to lunge at your husband, too?
posted by toucan at 2:16 PM on June 9 [1 favorite]
About the latest incident: Think back. Can you remember any sounds or unusual situations right before? Also, do you remember what her ears and tail looked like? Was she making any noises?
Some more handling tricks that might help: One, use a leash with different length options so you can unclip the carabiner when you need to attach the dog to a pole/fence/tree immediately. Two, if your harness has a clip at the front, in the puppy's chest area, attaching her there will make it much easier to hold her at arm's length. And three, some puppies respond beautifully to a chasing game, so it works really well to attach a toy to the non-dog end of the leash. Then, when they get into unwanted emotional states like fear or frustration, start a game of chase. Caution, though. This sort of game is very exciting and has to be followed by a calm activity such as searching for treats in the grass. Otherwise, you're asking for crazy puppy piranha mode.
It sounds like you handled the situation very well, considering the difficult circumstances. I'm curious, did she keep trying to lunge at your husband, too?
posted by toucan at 2:16 PM on June 9 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I'm curious what she was doing as your husband was "trying to subdue her" - was she still coming at you, was she trying to bite him, what was her body language? Was she vocalizing? Were there any diversion attempts (treat, chew toy)?
Obviously this is extremely hard to manage and whatever this trigger is, it's a very broad field you're having to find it in, and I hope the behaviorist can see it.
I guess this could be a form of leash reactivity, and just a trauma reaction to being 'controlled' with a leash; that's something a behaviorist should be able to test. I don't suppose you've tried leashing her in the house to see if it happens there? Obviously you'd want to offer extravagant treats for being good in the harness and leash inside.
I'm curious to know what the behaviorist says. I appreciate you still getting her assessed, even if this isn't the right dog for you. And that's okay, if she's not - you did your best to get the dog to safety, and whatever happened to her before you intervened isn't something you can control or know, but it does sometimes mean a dog has extremely specialized needs and may even mean they are simply not adoptable.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:15 AM on June 11 [1 favorite]
Obviously this is extremely hard to manage and whatever this trigger is, it's a very broad field you're having to find it in, and I hope the behaviorist can see it.
I guess this could be a form of leash reactivity, and just a trauma reaction to being 'controlled' with a leash; that's something a behaviorist should be able to test. I don't suppose you've tried leashing her in the house to see if it happens there? Obviously you'd want to offer extravagant treats for being good in the harness and leash inside.
I'm curious to know what the behaviorist says. I appreciate you still getting her assessed, even if this isn't the right dog for you. And that's okay, if she's not - you did your best to get the dog to safety, and whatever happened to her before you intervened isn't something you can control or know, but it does sometimes mean a dog has extremely specialized needs and may even mean they are simply not adoptable.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:15 AM on June 11 [1 favorite]
One thing that I think is relevant is that dogs are often really good at knowing when you’re freaked out by something or concerned about their behavior. I had a reactive dog once who was really, really good with people who had a lot of experience with big dogs and were just kind of bemused by him, but had an absolute sense for the people who had previous bad experiences with dogs and would try to be a holy terror to them.
You also note that you try to correct her by pulling her away from you with the leash, and that you did that last time as well. I’m wondering if that may be exacerbating the problem.
A couple questions:
1. How is she with your husband, when he walks her?
2. When you say “subdue”, what do you mean? Paws on the ground, mouth to herself, or trying to physically contain a wiggling puppy (hard even at the best of times, dogs hate being held)?
3. What is your relationship like on non-walking times?
4. Do you know if she’s leash-trained? Not all abandoned puppies are. We rescued one once who had only been trained to use pads inside.
In terms of tactics, with my reactive dog I would introduce a sudden strong scent to distract him, (crotch in a pinch) but I was heavily bonded with the dog and wasn’t worried about him attacking me, and I can see where that might be nerve wracking in a case where you don’t trust the dog.
posted by corb at 9:57 AM on June 11
You also note that you try to correct her by pulling her away from you with the leash, and that you did that last time as well. I’m wondering if that may be exacerbating the problem.
A couple questions:
1. How is she with your husband, when he walks her?
2. When you say “subdue”, what do you mean? Paws on the ground, mouth to herself, or trying to physically contain a wiggling puppy (hard even at the best of times, dogs hate being held)?
3. What is your relationship like on non-walking times?
4. Do you know if she’s leash-trained? Not all abandoned puppies are. We rescued one once who had only been trained to use pads inside.
In terms of tactics, with my reactive dog I would introduce a sudden strong scent to distract him, (crotch in a pinch) but I was heavily bonded with the dog and wasn’t worried about him attacking me, and I can see where that might be nerve wracking in a case where you don’t trust the dog.
posted by corb at 9:57 AM on June 11
Response by poster: A final update: We did not see the behaviorist. After a few long conversations with our vet and several other incidents of unprovoked aggression, the puppy was humanely euthanized yesterday. The vet felt it would not be responsible to put her into the shelter system. Also, because she had drawn blood through bites and scratches to both me and my husband, there is a risk of rabies exposure (since we know nothing about her living conditions before she was abandoned and she had not been vaccinated yet). Although realistically the chances are slight, the only way to know for certain is through an autopsy.
We are extremely sad about this and know that mistakes were made along the way. The person who abandoned her is a piece of shit. The people who found her should have taken her to animal services or a qualified rescue so she could be vetted before she was adopted out. We should have stayed with our original plan to adopt an older dog from a foster home, whose temperament was known. But I woke up this morning at peace and feel we did the best we could under the circumstances. Thank you again for all of the advice and concern you've shown here.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 8:09 AM on June 12 [1 favorite]
We are extremely sad about this and know that mistakes were made along the way. The person who abandoned her is a piece of shit. The people who found her should have taken her to animal services or a qualified rescue so she could be vetted before she was adopted out. We should have stayed with our original plan to adopt an older dog from a foster home, whose temperament was known. But I woke up this morning at peace and feel we did the best we could under the circumstances. Thank you again for all of the advice and concern you've shown here.
posted by Sweetie Darling at 8:09 AM on June 12 [1 favorite]
I'm so sorry you had to go through all this. I'm specifically not a "no-kill" fan because there are animals that can't be fixed and if you leave them in the system they take the place of highly-adoptable animals, and your follow-up descriptions really had me concerned that there was brain damage in play, which is not a surprising thing to happen to randomly-bred animals, ferals, and strays.
I hope, when you're ready, you get to take one of those good dogs out of the system and any acclimatization issues are extremely boring and non-stressful.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:15 PM on June 12 [2 favorites]
I hope, when you're ready, you get to take one of those good dogs out of the system and any acclimatization issues are extremely boring and non-stressful.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:15 PM on June 12 [2 favorites]
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If you decide to keep this dog, I would recommend muzzle training her. You don't want to risk her biting someone else. But if it were me, I would probably turn her over to a shelter - and I love dogs.
But before giving up, please do take her to a vet to have her checked out and assess all your options. Tell them in advance so they can muzzle her from the beginnign.
Also, it can be helpful to have both treats and a fun squeaky or rope toy or ball (whatever she likes) that you can distract her with if this happens agian.
If you only just found her a week ago, then that means as far as you know, she could have been exposed to rabies without vaccination. I'm not an expert, but I would check with a doctor and/or health department and/or animal control about whether you should have the prophylactic.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:47 PM on June 5 [8 favorites]