Crtl+Z in life after making it weird
May 17, 2024 8:43 AM Subscribe
I stated my boundaries. My sister is respecting them by not talking to me.
My questions: what were my missteps, what are your insights, what do you recommend I do?
This is a LONG one. For anyone who wants to pour themselves a cuppa, I'm about to pour my heart out and I would love any support sorting this out.
I’m on the US west coast and most of my family of origin is still located near my hometown, thousands of miles away. My family is huge, and I am one of the youngest. My parents were so busy with their horde of children that my eldest sibling, Sis, may have felt parentified and certainly took on a great deal of babysitting. I have siblings that are still resentful of Sis, due to how strict Sis was as a babysitter. Sis is so much older than me that she was already moving out as an adult when I was still pre-school aged, though she would occasionally take me for a weekend. I stayed in her college dorm with her once, and by the time I was about eight y/o, Sis met her future husband, BIL, and they both were great to me in terms of taking me to tag along on weekend adventures. They were both strict with rules but I could hardly complain. Yes, they forced me to wear a seatbelt in 1992 when I’d spent my whole childhood up to that point just bouncing off car interiors. No, they weren’t cool with me breaking glass bottles by the lake. I accepted that their intervention was helpful.
So, even when Sis came off as too rigid (like one night my parents were out of town but had given me permission to stay at a friend’s house, but then Sis nixed that plan because she feared we’d… not sleep well? Be little, small town juvenile delinquents…?) I wasn’t happy about it but I respected that she was doing what she thought was right. I felt bad (still feel bad) for her that she was so bossy toward the other siblings, they continue to bring it up at holidays and such.
Speaking of family holidays and such, I stopped attending those gatherings years ago. Not my thing. I’m a bit of an outlier in my fam because I don’t want my own family, and I get a gross, uneasy feeling from my family as a whole, so I ask to not be included in group texts, etc. My preference is for 1:1 relationships. If a relative wants me to know about their life, they’re going to have to let me know themself. I’m not on socials. I hardly pay attention to announcements made to the group.
OK, so in recent times, Sis took it upon herself to keep me informed of the latest news, and I’m sure I’ve thanked her for it (“I had no idea Brother’s family took a Disney Cruise. Thanks for telling me!”) But the catalyst for this whole big question was when Sis told me about Dad’s upcoming surgery. Mom and Dad didn’t want anyone, really, to know about the surgery. Sis found out somehow and told me. Let me add, Sis doesn’t like Dad and wouldn’t be fazed if he dropped dead. But she’s still dutiful and performatively respectful, whatever. I, OTOH, love my dad and would prefer he not die FWIW. Anyway, Sis is like (paraphrasing, obvs): “Dad’s having surgery next week. Don’t tell Mom and Dad I mentioned it.” This was 2+ years ago. I spent the whole week feeling anxious and sad for my Dad. Then Sis told me the surgery was postponed at the last minute because of other health complications that I’m also not supposed to know about. So, the next 2 additional weeks were spent with me reeling in fear and very alone with it. Ultimately, Dad was fine for a guy who’s a million years old.
Meanwhile, I was going through life transitions myself. Namely (sorry)... I changed my name. I never felt connected to my given name, so I ditched it when I got divorced and changed careers, all circa 2020. And I told Sis, “Hey I’m going by a different name out here. I’ve asked people at work to call me Shocks.” Not a legal change. But now my life is populated with tons of lovely people who call me something beautiful instead of something that hits my ears like an old curse.
Back at home, there was some big family dinner or something, and my sister grabbed the attention of the entire party and announced to like 30+ people that I changed my name. When I found out, I was mortified. I do not want these people calling me anything new. I do not want them asking questions about my name, none of that. I was so embarrassed. I jumped into a group text thread and told them to please forget Sis’s announcement, it’s non-applicable, thanks a bunch! And, everyone was cool, but I felt so exposed and violated.
And yet, I didn’t say to Sis that she shouldn’t have done that. Families don’t keep secrets well, and I know that. While a formal announcement at a dinner table is way different than what I ever would have imagined, I did expect the news of the name change to circulate, I just didn’t think anyone would care (they don’t) since I’m not asking them to call me anything new.
So, between hearing private info about my folks and having my own private info announced to everyone at dinner, my trust in Sis was pretty destroyed. Where I hadn’t even considered before whether she was trustworthy, her gossipy nature was now on full display before me, causing me real distress. Now I wanted to share nothing of myself with her, but also, I was embarrassed and put off by the info she would share about others (e.g., I don’t need candid photos from Sis of her kid experimenting with their gender expression. I respect her kid’s privacy). I really am slow at processing things, and also family of origin gossip wasn’t high on my priority list of things to process (when we’re in a pandemic and I lost a couple loved ones and ended a marriage and ended a career and moved to a new place…) Like, I have my own shit to deal with and if someone wants to tell me about their health or their queerness I am here for it, but don’t spill tea about others’ stuff, I’m so over it.
I continued to occasionally chat with Sis on the phone but the conversations felt strained to me. I don’t think she noticed. She’s a poster child for secure attachment, which is great for her!
But I couldn’t continue to just stuff down all my feelings. Obviously, right? Literally anyone even vaguely familiar with my stress around this said it’s so simple, I have to talk to my sister. I have to take action.
Yeah, so after months and months not being able to pick up the phone and initiate an actual conversation, I resorted to drafting email after email, and then I finally communicated to Sis via text that I think we have an opportunity to become closer. That I’m not mad at her, but I have some boundary type stuff I need to get off my chest. I’m saying– I gave Sis a head’s up about the email I had in Drafts! I told her I love her and this was really hard for me because I really don’t want her to feel bad, and that she maybe would feel bad. I asked if she wanted me to go ahead and hit send. She immediately responded with hearts and YES.
I haven’t heard a peep since. It’s been 6 months.
But it gets weirder, this story.
Remember BIL? Well, he and I were actually really tight back in the day. We shared the same hobby and he gave me his old hobby equipment when I was a kid, it was amazing. He and I would talk forever about Hobby. Sis didn’t get it. She didn’t really fit into these conversations. In my mind, Sis had my first loyalty for being my family, but I gravitated toward BIL. I felt he understood me and could talk to me like no one else in my family and, indeed, really like only people with the shared hobby could.
When I was 16, BIL and I were driving to Hobby store, and he told me something shocking. He told me he had met someone and had feelings for her. That he hadn’t cheated on my sister but he felt like his marriage was at a crossroads. He described the other woman as being one of the very few people BIL had ever met who he felt really got him, and whom he could really talk to, “someone like [me]” in that respect.
Six months later, I was living away at school (my parents sent me away at 15 because they were officially done parenting me), I had a roommate who gave me a message from Sis. The message was, do not communicate anymore with BIL. My close relationship with BIL ended that day.
I was confused and embarrassed. I didn’t know if I should have done things differently, etc. But also, BIL was the only adult I was connected to, or maybe most meaningfully, and yes– when I look back I do wonder what the actual hell was going on. This 30-something dude and my teenage AFAB self, IDK. I don’t know why Sis put an end to that relationship (his and mine). We continue to be friendly but this all happened in the late 1990’s. 25+ years later and it’s fair to say a really meaningful relationship ended on that day when I was 17.
Bringing it back to 2023, I wrote a LONG email to Sis. I knew I needed to communicate about my boundaries. But, man, I decided to let it all out. I couched my pain points in lots of “I love you”s and “I hate the idea of this letter causing distress”es, and “You’ve been so important in my life, I want to give our relationship a chance to grow closer by navigating some hard stuff together.” And within all of it, I dropped about 5 talking points: (1) I don’t want to hear other people’s private business from you, (2) I want to feel safe sharing things with you and feeling like you won’t make announcements on my behalf, (3) WTF is the deal with keeping your husband and me from being pals (back in the day)? Losing him was destructive in my life, and if you don’t trust him, why am I the one to suffer for it? (4 and 5) I thought there were 5 things I brought up but can only think of one more, so awkward!... I told her that her “little white lies” make me uneasy. As a people pleaser, Sis is very comfortable telling me, for example, she doesn’t want her kids to play with Cousin Alex, so they invented a camping trip the same weekend as Alex’s party to avoid attending it. But there are white lies and excuses for everything. And, when I’ve asked Sis for advice in the past, she often would recommend lies I could tell. Avoid unpleasantness, avoid confrontation, just talk out your ass and life is fine! Sure. But if Sis wants to be close with me (and it always seemed like that’s what she wanted, just didn’t know how to get there), don’t give ME the extensive white lies. It’s silly and it’s a waste of my time. She has made me listen at length to weird excuses to get out of doing something when it’s been so unnecessary. Please stop. And also, don’t try to impress me with lies issued to other people to avoid their children (seriously. I get it but ugh).
I suspect I touched a couple nerves. And I am afraid my sister genuinely lacks the skills to even respond to me. At some point I’m going to have to see her! She will talk to me then (she talks to my Dad and she wishes him dead, so).
Should I wait it out and give her space?
I thought about sending a card that says life is complicated or life is messy, and then a brief note saying I’m here for her, or similar. She’s done this in the past.
Was I a huge ass to send that email? Also, I assume BIL also read my email (I sent it to Sis but told her I expected her to share it with BIL, who knows). I suppose I hinted at the possibility that BIL was a groomer. He’s definitely been a massively positive influence in my life and I can’t cite any instances that are for sure inappropriate, the disclosure about his wandering heart for some lady being the obvious most-inappropriate.
Again, she’s not a bad person.
I think I may have humiliated her. I think she may feel called-out. I think her intentions have never been bad, ever. I know it’s important to enforce my own boundaries, but I wonder if I can or should try to meet her wherever she is, now, maybe by making reparations for my poor tact.
Yeah??
I’m on the US west coast and most of my family of origin is still located near my hometown, thousands of miles away. My family is huge, and I am one of the youngest. My parents were so busy with their horde of children that my eldest sibling, Sis, may have felt parentified and certainly took on a great deal of babysitting. I have siblings that are still resentful of Sis, due to how strict Sis was as a babysitter. Sis is so much older than me that she was already moving out as an adult when I was still pre-school aged, though she would occasionally take me for a weekend. I stayed in her college dorm with her once, and by the time I was about eight y/o, Sis met her future husband, BIL, and they both were great to me in terms of taking me to tag along on weekend adventures. They were both strict with rules but I could hardly complain. Yes, they forced me to wear a seatbelt in 1992 when I’d spent my whole childhood up to that point just bouncing off car interiors. No, they weren’t cool with me breaking glass bottles by the lake. I accepted that their intervention was helpful.
So, even when Sis came off as too rigid (like one night my parents were out of town but had given me permission to stay at a friend’s house, but then Sis nixed that plan because she feared we’d… not sleep well? Be little, small town juvenile delinquents…?) I wasn’t happy about it but I respected that she was doing what she thought was right. I felt bad (still feel bad) for her that she was so bossy toward the other siblings, they continue to bring it up at holidays and such.
Speaking of family holidays and such, I stopped attending those gatherings years ago. Not my thing. I’m a bit of an outlier in my fam because I don’t want my own family, and I get a gross, uneasy feeling from my family as a whole, so I ask to not be included in group texts, etc. My preference is for 1:1 relationships. If a relative wants me to know about their life, they’re going to have to let me know themself. I’m not on socials. I hardly pay attention to announcements made to the group.
OK, so in recent times, Sis took it upon herself to keep me informed of the latest news, and I’m sure I’ve thanked her for it (“I had no idea Brother’s family took a Disney Cruise. Thanks for telling me!”) But the catalyst for this whole big question was when Sis told me about Dad’s upcoming surgery. Mom and Dad didn’t want anyone, really, to know about the surgery. Sis found out somehow and told me. Let me add, Sis doesn’t like Dad and wouldn’t be fazed if he dropped dead. But she’s still dutiful and performatively respectful, whatever. I, OTOH, love my dad and would prefer he not die FWIW. Anyway, Sis is like (paraphrasing, obvs): “Dad’s having surgery next week. Don’t tell Mom and Dad I mentioned it.” This was 2+ years ago. I spent the whole week feeling anxious and sad for my Dad. Then Sis told me the surgery was postponed at the last minute because of other health complications that I’m also not supposed to know about. So, the next 2 additional weeks were spent with me reeling in fear and very alone with it. Ultimately, Dad was fine for a guy who’s a million years old.
Meanwhile, I was going through life transitions myself. Namely (sorry)... I changed my name. I never felt connected to my given name, so I ditched it when I got divorced and changed careers, all circa 2020. And I told Sis, “Hey I’m going by a different name out here. I’ve asked people at work to call me Shocks.” Not a legal change. But now my life is populated with tons of lovely people who call me something beautiful instead of something that hits my ears like an old curse.
Back at home, there was some big family dinner or something, and my sister grabbed the attention of the entire party and announced to like 30+ people that I changed my name. When I found out, I was mortified. I do not want these people calling me anything new. I do not want them asking questions about my name, none of that. I was so embarrassed. I jumped into a group text thread and told them to please forget Sis’s announcement, it’s non-applicable, thanks a bunch! And, everyone was cool, but I felt so exposed and violated.
And yet, I didn’t say to Sis that she shouldn’t have done that. Families don’t keep secrets well, and I know that. While a formal announcement at a dinner table is way different than what I ever would have imagined, I did expect the news of the name change to circulate, I just didn’t think anyone would care (they don’t) since I’m not asking them to call me anything new.
So, between hearing private info about my folks and having my own private info announced to everyone at dinner, my trust in Sis was pretty destroyed. Where I hadn’t even considered before whether she was trustworthy, her gossipy nature was now on full display before me, causing me real distress. Now I wanted to share nothing of myself with her, but also, I was embarrassed and put off by the info she would share about others (e.g., I don’t need candid photos from Sis of her kid experimenting with their gender expression. I respect her kid’s privacy). I really am slow at processing things, and also family of origin gossip wasn’t high on my priority list of things to process (when we’re in a pandemic and I lost a couple loved ones and ended a marriage and ended a career and moved to a new place…) Like, I have my own shit to deal with and if someone wants to tell me about their health or their queerness I am here for it, but don’t spill tea about others’ stuff, I’m so over it.
I continued to occasionally chat with Sis on the phone but the conversations felt strained to me. I don’t think she noticed. She’s a poster child for secure attachment, which is great for her!
But I couldn’t continue to just stuff down all my feelings. Obviously, right? Literally anyone even vaguely familiar with my stress around this said it’s so simple, I have to talk to my sister. I have to take action.
Yeah, so after months and months not being able to pick up the phone and initiate an actual conversation, I resorted to drafting email after email, and then I finally communicated to Sis via text that I think we have an opportunity to become closer. That I’m not mad at her, but I have some boundary type stuff I need to get off my chest. I’m saying– I gave Sis a head’s up about the email I had in Drafts! I told her I love her and this was really hard for me because I really don’t want her to feel bad, and that she maybe would feel bad. I asked if she wanted me to go ahead and hit send. She immediately responded with hearts and YES.
I haven’t heard a peep since. It’s been 6 months.
But it gets weirder, this story.
Remember BIL? Well, he and I were actually really tight back in the day. We shared the same hobby and he gave me his old hobby equipment when I was a kid, it was amazing. He and I would talk forever about Hobby. Sis didn’t get it. She didn’t really fit into these conversations. In my mind, Sis had my first loyalty for being my family, but I gravitated toward BIL. I felt he understood me and could talk to me like no one else in my family and, indeed, really like only people with the shared hobby could.
When I was 16, BIL and I were driving to Hobby store, and he told me something shocking. He told me he had met someone and had feelings for her. That he hadn’t cheated on my sister but he felt like his marriage was at a crossroads. He described the other woman as being one of the very few people BIL had ever met who he felt really got him, and whom he could really talk to, “someone like [me]” in that respect.
Six months later, I was living away at school (my parents sent me away at 15 because they were officially done parenting me), I had a roommate who gave me a message from Sis. The message was, do not communicate anymore with BIL. My close relationship with BIL ended that day.
I was confused and embarrassed. I didn’t know if I should have done things differently, etc. But also, BIL was the only adult I was connected to, or maybe most meaningfully, and yes– when I look back I do wonder what the actual hell was going on. This 30-something dude and my teenage AFAB self, IDK. I don’t know why Sis put an end to that relationship (his and mine). We continue to be friendly but this all happened in the late 1990’s. 25+ years later and it’s fair to say a really meaningful relationship ended on that day when I was 17.
Bringing it back to 2023, I wrote a LONG email to Sis. I knew I needed to communicate about my boundaries. But, man, I decided to let it all out. I couched my pain points in lots of “I love you”s and “I hate the idea of this letter causing distress”es, and “You’ve been so important in my life, I want to give our relationship a chance to grow closer by navigating some hard stuff together.” And within all of it, I dropped about 5 talking points: (1) I don’t want to hear other people’s private business from you, (2) I want to feel safe sharing things with you and feeling like you won’t make announcements on my behalf, (3) WTF is the deal with keeping your husband and me from being pals (back in the day)? Losing him was destructive in my life, and if you don’t trust him, why am I the one to suffer for it? (4 and 5) I thought there were 5 things I brought up but can only think of one more, so awkward!... I told her that her “little white lies” make me uneasy. As a people pleaser, Sis is very comfortable telling me, for example, she doesn’t want her kids to play with Cousin Alex, so they invented a camping trip the same weekend as Alex’s party to avoid attending it. But there are white lies and excuses for everything. And, when I’ve asked Sis for advice in the past, she often would recommend lies I could tell. Avoid unpleasantness, avoid confrontation, just talk out your ass and life is fine! Sure. But if Sis wants to be close with me (and it always seemed like that’s what she wanted, just didn’t know how to get there), don’t give ME the extensive white lies. It’s silly and it’s a waste of my time. She has made me listen at length to weird excuses to get out of doing something when it’s been so unnecessary. Please stop. And also, don’t try to impress me with lies issued to other people to avoid their children (seriously. I get it but ugh).
I suspect I touched a couple nerves. And I am afraid my sister genuinely lacks the skills to even respond to me. At some point I’m going to have to see her! She will talk to me then (she talks to my Dad and she wishes him dead, so).
Should I wait it out and give her space?
I thought about sending a card that says life is complicated or life is messy, and then a brief note saying I’m here for her, or similar. She’s done this in the past.
Was I a huge ass to send that email? Also, I assume BIL also read my email (I sent it to Sis but told her I expected her to share it with BIL, who knows). I suppose I hinted at the possibility that BIL was a groomer. He’s definitely been a massively positive influence in my life and I can’t cite any instances that are for sure inappropriate, the disclosure about his wandering heart for some lady being the obvious most-inappropriate.
Again, she’s not a bad person.
I think I may have humiliated her. I think she may feel called-out. I think her intentions have never been bad, ever. I know it’s important to enforce my own boundaries, but I wonder if I can or should try to meet her wherever she is, now, maybe by making reparations for my poor tact.
Yeah??
Best answer: This is a lot of big stuff - I'm not surprised you're having big feelings about it *or* that your sister similarly might have had big feelings on getting your message. (The medium for the message, I think, really depends on the two of you. If you were my sibling, email is exactly how I'd have wanted you to do this, not a conversation.) That doesn't mean there was anything wrong in you sending it, but for you it was the endpoint of what sounds like years of wrestling with your feelings about this. For her, it was likely a shock and just the beginning of her own wrestling with it. You're farther along in this than she is.
I can also, as the parentified big sister, recognize a lot of things here that I might have done similarly to what your sister did, though I don't think your primary request here is for someone to try to explain those thought processes to you so I'll sit on that unless you think it would be helpful to hear what I see when you describe these behaviors. (And the name thing isn't even that - I think on that one she was just wrong, full stop.)
So I've got a lot of sympathy for both of you struggling with some very difficult family dynamics here, and I'm hopeful you can work through it. But it may simply be that your sister cannot meet you where you are right now. She escaped her childhood with her own set of trauma and tools for dealing with it, and she may not have the toolkit to respond to the boundaries you've set, and to have the kind of relationship with you that you are looking for.
I do think given the time passed it would be absolutely okay to reach out again, once, short and sweet. Just - I'm thinking about you, I love you, I'd love to talk to you sometime when you're up for that. If by any chance she's stressing over how or whether to reach out to *you*, give her the opening she needs to know you hope she will whether it's now or in the future. If she doesn't, then I think your mission for future family meetings is to be friendly and kind but not overly personal unless she leads you there - let her guide how she wants to interact with you in these situations.
posted by Stacey at 9:16 AM on May 17 [8 favorites]
I can also, as the parentified big sister, recognize a lot of things here that I might have done similarly to what your sister did, though I don't think your primary request here is for someone to try to explain those thought processes to you so I'll sit on that unless you think it would be helpful to hear what I see when you describe these behaviors. (And the name thing isn't even that - I think on that one she was just wrong, full stop.)
So I've got a lot of sympathy for both of you struggling with some very difficult family dynamics here, and I'm hopeful you can work through it. But it may simply be that your sister cannot meet you where you are right now. She escaped her childhood with her own set of trauma and tools for dealing with it, and she may not have the toolkit to respond to the boundaries you've set, and to have the kind of relationship with you that you are looking for.
I do think given the time passed it would be absolutely okay to reach out again, once, short and sweet. Just - I'm thinking about you, I love you, I'd love to talk to you sometime when you're up for that. If by any chance she's stressing over how or whether to reach out to *you*, give her the opening she needs to know you hope she will whether it's now or in the future. If she doesn't, then I think your mission for future family meetings is to be friendly and kind but not overly personal unless she leads you there - let her guide how she wants to interact with you in these situations.
posted by Stacey at 9:16 AM on May 17 [8 favorites]
This is probably a stretch, but is there any chance that when BIL confessed a not-acted-upon love for "someone like you", he actually was talking about having feelings for you (without wanting you to fully realize it)? Could explain long-lasting weirdness if so.
posted by rivenwanderer at 9:18 AM on May 17 [35 favorites]
posted by rivenwanderer at 9:18 AM on May 17 [35 favorites]
Info: you say you "haven't heard a peep" from her. But have you reached out at all yet, in the ways you typically would? If not, she may be taking her cues from you. (Or, if she is ALWAYS the one to make the effort, she might have decided she's tired of that.)
posted by metasarah at 9:22 AM on May 17 [4 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 9:22 AM on May 17 [4 favorites]
I am also a parentified older sister and former white-lie-to-not-offend teller, so I can't help but empathize with her. I'm going to put all of that in a box though and touch on this:
(3) WTF is the deal with keeping your husband and me from being pals (back in the day)? Losing him was destructive in my life, and if you don’t trust him, why am I the one to suffer for it?
Your email contained 3 boundaries which didn't require answers from Sis and one question, which is what is above. Are you sure you want that answer? Sis's lack of response could mean she does not want to tell you the answer about BIL, who (with very generous math) was around 30 years old when you were 16.
posted by kimberussell at 9:34 AM on May 17 [7 favorites]
(3) WTF is the deal with keeping your husband and me from being pals (back in the day)? Losing him was destructive in my life, and if you don’t trust him, why am I the one to suffer for it?
Your email contained 3 boundaries which didn't require answers from Sis and one question, which is what is above. Are you sure you want that answer? Sis's lack of response could mean she does not want to tell you the answer about BIL, who (with very generous math) was around 30 years old when you were 16.
posted by kimberussell at 9:34 AM on May 17 [7 favorites]
You laid out the terms under which you are willing to have a relationship with your sister. Some (all?) of the terms were in direct conflict with who your sister is such as the white lies. I assume she has terms under which she is willing to have a relationship with you. You told her you are not willing to accept her for who she is. She may hate your dad, but by her actions, she is willing to deal with him under her terms. I do not follow the logic that she hagtes dad but is willing to act normal in front of him so even if she hates me, she should be willing to talk to me.
The "I love you, you suck, I love you, you suck, I love you, you suck, but I still love you" construct of the letter and hoping she only takes the "I love you" personally, but not the "you suck" part personally is wishful thinking.
Unless you told your sister not to tell anyone about the name change, to get angry about her method of telling seems unfair. Maybe she thought she was doing you a favor in that you did not want to tell everyone yourself and told her because you knew she was a gossip and would tell everyone.
For someone who wants to avoid drama, there is a lot of potential drama in the email. At this point I think your choice is binary. EIther call your sister and have a conversation about the email and your livers together or do nothing. The toss her a softball and put the ball in her court seems too passive to me.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:38 AM on May 17 [36 favorites]
The "I love you, you suck, I love you, you suck, I love you, you suck, but I still love you" construct of the letter and hoping she only takes the "I love you" personally, but not the "you suck" part personally is wishful thinking.
Unless you told your sister not to tell anyone about the name change, to get angry about her method of telling seems unfair. Maybe she thought she was doing you a favor in that you did not want to tell everyone yourself and told her because you knew she was a gossip and would tell everyone.
For someone who wants to avoid drama, there is a lot of potential drama in the email. At this point I think your choice is binary. EIther call your sister and have a conversation about the email and your livers together or do nothing. The toss her a softball and put the ball in her court seems too passive to me.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:38 AM on May 17 [36 favorites]
From my outsider's perspective, it seems like your sister may have been trying to keep you connected to the family and to protect you. I wonder if, before this email, you've directly told her that you're happy with having a more granular, individualized relationship with your family members? It's not wrong to feel that way, but it is unusual. If you think about your relationship, does she usually take the lead, as if she were still the adult and you were still a child? Those patterns can be really hard to break.
Which is not to say you're wrong to ask for your boundaries to be respected! It was probably not optimal to send the email, but regardless of her intentions it seems like she's also definitely done her share of sub-optimal things toward you; this might turn out to be a great opportunity to start relating to her like you're sisters and peers, where you can be more comfortable saying when you're uncomfortable, and she can stop trying to mediate how you relate to your family.
That being said, I'm concerned about how you see the incredibly inappropriate behavior of your BIL. A 30-year-old man telling a 16-yo girl that he wants to have an affair with someone "more like her" is a huge red flag. Cutting off the relationship between you and BIL is the literal least that she could do to protect you (a child) from a grown adult who absolutely should have known better. I believe you when you say that you were friends and that it was a meaningful relationship for you, but your sister didn't end that friendship, your BIL did when he chose to say those things to you.
I think it would be kind of you to send a card, or otherwise reach out in a gentle way. It might just take time for you both to find a new footing with each other--maybe however long it took you to process your feelings and write that email, give your sister at least that long to do her own processing. She'll always be your sister, but she may be unsure of how to relate to you right now; if you can hold that space for her, you should. And don't forget to be kind toward yourself as well. It's brave to speak up for yourself, even imperfectly.
posted by radiogreentea at 10:51 AM on May 17 [34 favorites]
Which is not to say you're wrong to ask for your boundaries to be respected! It was probably not optimal to send the email, but regardless of her intentions it seems like she's also definitely done her share of sub-optimal things toward you; this might turn out to be a great opportunity to start relating to her like you're sisters and peers, where you can be more comfortable saying when you're uncomfortable, and she can stop trying to mediate how you relate to your family.
That being said, I'm concerned about how you see the incredibly inappropriate behavior of your BIL. A 30-year-old man telling a 16-yo girl that he wants to have an affair with someone "more like her" is a huge red flag. Cutting off the relationship between you and BIL is the literal least that she could do to protect you (a child) from a grown adult who absolutely should have known better. I believe you when you say that you were friends and that it was a meaningful relationship for you, but your sister didn't end that friendship, your BIL did when he chose to say those things to you.
I think it would be kind of you to send a card, or otherwise reach out in a gentle way. It might just take time for you both to find a new footing with each other--maybe however long it took you to process your feelings and write that email, give your sister at least that long to do her own processing. She'll always be your sister, but she may be unsure of how to relate to you right now; if you can hold that space for her, you should. And don't forget to be kind toward yourself as well. It's brave to speak up for yourself, even imperfectly.
posted by radiogreentea at 10:51 AM on May 17 [34 favorites]
Yeah, I think including the BIL stuff was a bad idea for that email. His behavior when you were a kid was out of line: even if he wasn't referring to you as his new love interest (which is certainly what your description suggests...) who dumps an infidelity confession on their spouse's sibling? Who isn't even an adult? There was clearly something very serious going on there that bothered your sister a lot. I can understand why you'd be curious about it, but this was not the place for that conversation.
Other than that, I think you requests aren't bad per se, but the way you describe your sister as untrustworthy and gossipy seems (to me) much more extreme than warranted by the actions you described. (I know there might be more, but I'm going on what's included in this question.) It sounds like you have a giant family, and that people generally share news and keep each other up to date, and that your sister definitely defaults to that approach. (And you've known that, and explicitly thanked her for it!) So it seems to me that if you had something you wanted to keep private then - knowing that her default is sharing information - you should have said "please keep this private", the way your sister did when she told you about your father's health situation. It's fine to decide this doesn't work for you and just to say "hey, you know what, I'm realizing it's sometimes hard for me to hear things about other people and to have other people hear things about me, so can we make it a new default to not tell me other people's private stuff and not pass on info about me, unless I say it's okay?" There was no need for a huge, dramatic, "but I love you anyway" (implying that the request could potentially mean you didn't love her) email.
I would also keep in mind that some private things also affect other people, by their very nature. Did you want her to call you by your new name? If so, consider her situation: she'd need to call you by one name when talking with you while using another name to refer to you when talking with family. It's doable, but also hard; it places a burden on her. And if you didn't explicitly say that you didn't want the rest of the family calling you by your new name, it seems like a natural assumption for her to think you'd want everyone to be using it. (If you didn't want her to call you by your new name, then that's also something that I'd think would call for some explanation, like "this new name is just for people I've met later in life, I really want to still be [old name] to my family. I don't even want them to know about it, I'm just telling you because we're so close.")
Basically, some families/friend groups/communities/culture default towards information sharing. Others default away from sharing. There's a thing where people in the second group sometimes see information-sharing as a huge, trust-violating sin, and information-sharers as untrustworthy and awful. To me, that's an extreme and seriously not-helpful view. I really don't think there's anything inherently better about one default than the other; they both have drawbacks and benefits; to be honest I think the first style tends to lead to closer communities and relationships and less distance in many cases, though not universally.
Regardless: neither way is a sin -- unless it disregards explicit requests to do things otherwise. So I think your main misstep, other than including the BIL stuff, was to judge your sister, instead of just looking at it as a stylistic difference and neutrally letting her know your (new to her) preferences.
I definitely think you should talk with her (not over email, and if possible in person) and de-escalate the hell out of this. Forget "enforcing your boundaries*" and so forth - this does not need to be a big, rigid Thing. Let her talk, listen to her, tell her you overreacted but you really do want to default to privacy over sharing, just as a personal thing, because the other way is hard for you; tell her you realize that can make things complicated for her and that you'll figure it out together.
* Personally, I would keep the word "boundaries" well away from any conversation like this. You can conceptualize these things internally as boundaries if that's useful to you, and the word might work when you're talking with someone else who likes the concept, but in general I think the word, when used in communication, is needlessly aggressive, rigid, and distancing.
I think I may have humiliated her. I think she may feel called-out.
The criticism that it sounds like she has been getting in spades from her other siblings, for years, might also play into this. That stuff can hurt. The fact that you dumped a whole bunch of complaints on her together instead of introducing them gradually and sensitively would also definitely contribute to feeling called-out, because you did in fact absolutely call her out. Anyway, there's only one way to find out what she's feeling - talk with her.
posted by trig at 10:53 AM on May 17 [18 favorites]
Other than that, I think you requests aren't bad per se, but the way you describe your sister as untrustworthy and gossipy seems (to me) much more extreme than warranted by the actions you described. (I know there might be more, but I'm going on what's included in this question.) It sounds like you have a giant family, and that people generally share news and keep each other up to date, and that your sister definitely defaults to that approach. (And you've known that, and explicitly thanked her for it!) So it seems to me that if you had something you wanted to keep private then - knowing that her default is sharing information - you should have said "please keep this private", the way your sister did when she told you about your father's health situation. It's fine to decide this doesn't work for you and just to say "hey, you know what, I'm realizing it's sometimes hard for me to hear things about other people and to have other people hear things about me, so can we make it a new default to not tell me other people's private stuff and not pass on info about me, unless I say it's okay?" There was no need for a huge, dramatic, "but I love you anyway" (implying that the request could potentially mean you didn't love her) email.
I would also keep in mind that some private things also affect other people, by their very nature. Did you want her to call you by your new name? If so, consider her situation: she'd need to call you by one name when talking with you while using another name to refer to you when talking with family. It's doable, but also hard; it places a burden on her. And if you didn't explicitly say that you didn't want the rest of the family calling you by your new name, it seems like a natural assumption for her to think you'd want everyone to be using it. (If you didn't want her to call you by your new name, then that's also something that I'd think would call for some explanation, like "this new name is just for people I've met later in life, I really want to still be [old name] to my family. I don't even want them to know about it, I'm just telling you because we're so close.")
Basically, some families/friend groups/communities/culture default towards information sharing. Others default away from sharing. There's a thing where people in the second group sometimes see information-sharing as a huge, trust-violating sin, and information-sharers as untrustworthy and awful. To me, that's an extreme and seriously not-helpful view. I really don't think there's anything inherently better about one default than the other; they both have drawbacks and benefits; to be honest I think the first style tends to lead to closer communities and relationships and less distance in many cases, though not universally.
Regardless: neither way is a sin -- unless it disregards explicit requests to do things otherwise. So I think your main misstep, other than including the BIL stuff, was to judge your sister, instead of just looking at it as a stylistic difference and neutrally letting her know your (new to her) preferences.
I definitely think you should talk with her (not over email, and if possible in person) and de-escalate the hell out of this. Forget "enforcing your boundaries*" and so forth - this does not need to be a big, rigid Thing. Let her talk, listen to her, tell her you overreacted but you really do want to default to privacy over sharing, just as a personal thing, because the other way is hard for you; tell her you realize that can make things complicated for her and that you'll figure it out together.
* Personally, I would keep the word "boundaries" well away from any conversation like this. You can conceptualize these things internally as boundaries if that's useful to you, and the word might work when you're talking with someone else who likes the concept, but in general I think the word, when used in communication, is needlessly aggressive, rigid, and distancing.
I think I may have humiliated her. I think she may feel called-out.
The criticism that it sounds like she has been getting in spades from her other siblings, for years, might also play into this. That stuff can hurt. The fact that you dumped a whole bunch of complaints on her together instead of introducing them gradually and sensitively would also definitely contribute to feeling called-out, because you did in fact absolutely call her out. Anyway, there's only one way to find out what she's feeling - talk with her.
posted by trig at 10:53 AM on May 17 [18 favorites]
A boundary is not the same thing as telling someone all the things they've ever done that annoy you (whether or not you also insist that they stop doing them). A boundary is about your own response, not trying to change other people's actions. It would be more like: "If you share information that I tell you is private with the family, I won't tell you any information I'm not comfortable with the entire family knowing". Boundaries are especially not stuff like "I'm still upset that you enforced your own boundaries about your relationship when I was a 16 year old having what seems very much like an emotional affair with your husband, years and years ago".
With that in mind, I don't think it's fair to say that you warned your sister about the contents of the email. It wasn't "boundary type stuff" and I'm confused about why you thought it would bring you closer. It was a list of all the stuff you don't like about her, mixed in with calling her husband a pedophile (which may be valid, from your description of events), mixed with compliments and nice words that she may or may not believe in the context of the other stuff (I call this a shit sandwich - adding nice stuff doesn't make the bad stuff any easier to swallow).
I'm not sure what the best strategy is to repair your relationship, but I suspect that a conversation in person is going to be the most promising approach. I'm not at all surprised that your sister hasn't responded to that absolute bomb of an email. I'm not saying you were wrong to discuss those things but it was framed in a very misleading way and the things themselves are very complicated and will not be resolved as easily as your sister saying "oh ok".
posted by randomnity at 10:56 AM on May 17 [47 favorites]
With that in mind, I don't think it's fair to say that you warned your sister about the contents of the email. It wasn't "boundary type stuff" and I'm confused about why you thought it would bring you closer. It was a list of all the stuff you don't like about her, mixed in with calling her husband a pedophile (which may be valid, from your description of events), mixed with compliments and nice words that she may or may not believe in the context of the other stuff (I call this a shit sandwich - adding nice stuff doesn't make the bad stuff any easier to swallow).
I'm not sure what the best strategy is to repair your relationship, but I suspect that a conversation in person is going to be the most promising approach. I'm not at all surprised that your sister hasn't responded to that absolute bomb of an email. I'm not saying you were wrong to discuss those things but it was framed in a very misleading way and the things themselves are very complicated and will not be resolved as easily as your sister saying "oh ok".
posted by randomnity at 10:56 AM on May 17 [47 favorites]
To be quite honest, I think you may benefit from working on yourself and focusing on moderating/containing your own reactions rather than turning this level of harsh scrutiny on your sister.
1. You come across as quite judgmental and controlling towards your sister. It's not your business how she lives her life. For example, if she tells little white lies to *other people*, why would you feel the need to "set a boundary" about it? That's not a boundary, that's you making rules for how she's allowed to live her life in ways you have no connection to.
2. You also come across as if you have a lot of unresolved issues from your childhood that you are still seeing through the lens of a child (which is understandable since these issues are unresolved for you). So for example, you are unable to view the incidents related to your sister's decisions as a babysitter through the eyes of a mature adult. To you she's still the mean old big sister who wouldn't let you do what you thought were totally fair/safe things to do. You can't consider a wider perspective that takes into account the level of responsibility that was thrust on her, her own fears or capacities at that age, etc.
3. You also seem to blame her for damaging you psychologically at a formative age by taking her boyfriend away from you, which is ... kind of wild. She did not owe it to you to keep allowing her boyfriend to hang out with you (and that's assuming you are right to think of your sister as some kind of all powerful demon goddess who had total control over her inanimate puppet boyfriend). You were not owed his company. She did not steal him away from you. If you had developmental needs that were going unmet in such a way that you depended on your attachment to her boyfriend, that was not your sister's responsibility to consider nor was it her job to resolve those issues for you by providing her boyfriend's company as a healing influence.
4. The email you sent her is also kind of wild. Dumping all those accusations and controlling demands on your sister was bound to hurt her and damage your relationship, and there is a kind of magical thinking you seem to be engaging in to convince yourself that all you did was "set boundaries"? And that because you said you loved her and don't intend to hurt her, that your email was appropriate/necessary/useful. To me that email is a pure and ringing expression of a child's inchoate unresolved feelings towards a parentified sister whom you have mistaken for an actual parent.
I could go on, but I won't because I don't want to come across as if I'm picking your post apart or trying to criticize every aspect of it, or you. Rest assured that your issues are no big deal, they are normal and fine and easily resolved with the help of therapy and by trying to develop your sense of maturity, self-efficacy, etc. You will naturally stop projecting all these hurts onto your sister when you start feeling like an empowered and confident adult. So please try to focus on helping yourself get to that place.
That's what I hope you will take away from my comment: all this stuff you have written has little or nothing to do with your sister's "misdeeds" (she hasn't committed any misdeeds as far as I can tell). You are fine, you are not committing any misdeeds either! Your feelings are INFORMATION about areas you need to work on yourself. Find a therapist, do the work. Good luck!
posted by MiraK at 10:56 AM on May 17 [66 favorites]
1. You come across as quite judgmental and controlling towards your sister. It's not your business how she lives her life. For example, if she tells little white lies to *other people*, why would you feel the need to "set a boundary" about it? That's not a boundary, that's you making rules for how she's allowed to live her life in ways you have no connection to.
2. You also come across as if you have a lot of unresolved issues from your childhood that you are still seeing through the lens of a child (which is understandable since these issues are unresolved for you). So for example, you are unable to view the incidents related to your sister's decisions as a babysitter through the eyes of a mature adult. To you she's still the mean old big sister who wouldn't let you do what you thought were totally fair/safe things to do. You can't consider a wider perspective that takes into account the level of responsibility that was thrust on her, her own fears or capacities at that age, etc.
3. You also seem to blame her for damaging you psychologically at a formative age by taking her boyfriend away from you, which is ... kind of wild. She did not owe it to you to keep allowing her boyfriend to hang out with you (and that's assuming you are right to think of your sister as some kind of all powerful demon goddess who had total control over her inanimate puppet boyfriend). You were not owed his company. She did not steal him away from you. If you had developmental needs that were going unmet in such a way that you depended on your attachment to her boyfriend, that was not your sister's responsibility to consider nor was it her job to resolve those issues for you by providing her boyfriend's company as a healing influence.
4. The email you sent her is also kind of wild. Dumping all those accusations and controlling demands on your sister was bound to hurt her and damage your relationship, and there is a kind of magical thinking you seem to be engaging in to convince yourself that all you did was "set boundaries"? And that because you said you loved her and don't intend to hurt her, that your email was appropriate/necessary/useful. To me that email is a pure and ringing expression of a child's inchoate unresolved feelings towards a parentified sister whom you have mistaken for an actual parent.
I could go on, but I won't because I don't want to come across as if I'm picking your post apart or trying to criticize every aspect of it, or you. Rest assured that your issues are no big deal, they are normal and fine and easily resolved with the help of therapy and by trying to develop your sense of maturity, self-efficacy, etc. You will naturally stop projecting all these hurts onto your sister when you start feeling like an empowered and confident adult. So please try to focus on helping yourself get to that place.
That's what I hope you will take away from my comment: all this stuff you have written has little or nothing to do with your sister's "misdeeds" (she hasn't committed any misdeeds as far as I can tell). You are fine, you are not committing any misdeeds either! Your feelings are INFORMATION about areas you need to work on yourself. Find a therapist, do the work. Good luck!
posted by MiraK at 10:56 AM on May 17 [66 favorites]
Family gossip is unavoidable.
If you prefer to hear news one on one, why did you allow your sister to feed you news about your parents? You were a participant in the gossip train, so getting all high and mighty about her sharing stuff seems disingenuous.
Your email was a mistake.
Calling her in on her white lies was petty bullshit—would you like it if anyone wrote you such a letter?
The name change stuff—by your own description is a nothing sandwich.
The brother-in-law stuff would have been a separate conversation; here, in the midst of this pile of grievances, it comes across as an old grudge.
You can speak the rhetoric of love and moving forward til the cows come home, but it doesn't change your condescending attitude. That you love your dad more than she does (according to you) doesn't make you a better person.
When you see her, say hello and leave her alone.
Family gossip is unavoidable.
good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 11:10 AM on May 17 [5 favorites]
If you prefer to hear news one on one, why did you allow your sister to feed you news about your parents? You were a participant in the gossip train, so getting all high and mighty about her sharing stuff seems disingenuous.
Your email was a mistake.
Calling her in on her white lies was petty bullshit—would you like it if anyone wrote you such a letter?
The name change stuff—by your own description is a nothing sandwich.
The brother-in-law stuff would have been a separate conversation; here, in the midst of this pile of grievances, it comes across as an old grudge.
You can speak the rhetoric of love and moving forward til the cows come home, but it doesn't change your condescending attitude. That you love your dad more than she does (according to you) doesn't make you a better person.
When you see her, say hello and leave her alone.
Family gossip is unavoidable.
good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 11:10 AM on May 17 [5 favorites]
I think your family is in the habit of blaming your sister (probably as a proxy for your parents.) And so did you. I’m not surprised she’s not responding. You didn’t set boundaries, you delivered a blacklist of her sins. A boundary would be like “hey sis, health information stresses me out of weeks, so can you not share it if it’s not about you?”
I think if you want to reconnect with your sister you should give it more time, and then have a conversation focused on repairing the relationship.
Most of what you’ve expressed here I would call normal family life. The health drama is a part of having aging parents. The white lies are sometimes how family gets through conflict. Unless you specifically asked your sister not to share your name I’m not sure how you can expect her to interpret “I’m going by this at work now” (so all your coworkers know ) as “this is secret.” I would really think about how you can become more adult in your view of her. Even casting her actions as her trying to keep you connected, while that might be true, makes her some kind of mastermind. She may just be blundering through your family too, man.
I’m not sure what you hoped to accomplish with your email but yeah…if I got an email detailing everything I’d done wrong for the last few years, I’d probably just let it be as well. It’s kind of a no-win “have you stopped bearing your wife” situation at that point, assuming she sees her white lies and attempts to communicate as trying to be connected and caring. It would be fine to talk about them close to when they’re happening, but storing them all up is kinda disrespectful.
The thing with your BIL is a bit different and so serious. You were both victimized by his selfish actions. Having a relationship with that guy was not a good thing. But I would guess your sister wasn’t in a great space dealing with it either. It seems like she did her best. Maybe you could ask her how she felt. I really wonder what her life has been like. Maybe it was a one-off bad thing. Maybe not. But it’s your BIL at fault way before your sister. It seems to me she protected you.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:17 AM on May 17 [21 favorites]
I think if you want to reconnect with your sister you should give it more time, and then have a conversation focused on repairing the relationship.
Most of what you’ve expressed here I would call normal family life. The health drama is a part of having aging parents. The white lies are sometimes how family gets through conflict. Unless you specifically asked your sister not to share your name I’m not sure how you can expect her to interpret “I’m going by this at work now” (so all your coworkers know ) as “this is secret.” I would really think about how you can become more adult in your view of her. Even casting her actions as her trying to keep you connected, while that might be true, makes her some kind of mastermind. She may just be blundering through your family too, man.
I’m not sure what you hoped to accomplish with your email but yeah…if I got an email detailing everything I’d done wrong for the last few years, I’d probably just let it be as well. It’s kind of a no-win “have you stopped bearing your wife” situation at that point, assuming she sees her white lies and attempts to communicate as trying to be connected and caring. It would be fine to talk about them close to when they’re happening, but storing them all up is kinda disrespectful.
The thing with your BIL is a bit different and so serious. You were both victimized by his selfish actions. Having a relationship with that guy was not a good thing. But I would guess your sister wasn’t in a great space dealing with it either. It seems like she did her best. Maybe you could ask her how she felt. I really wonder what her life has been like. Maybe it was a one-off bad thing. Maybe not. But it’s your BIL at fault way before your sister. It seems to me she protected you.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:17 AM on May 17 [21 favorites]
Just to push back a little more on the "gossip" framing: If you're willing, as an exercise, spend some time thinking about these kinds of communication updates as a type of emotional labor that helps to keep far-flung individuals connected and close - especially in a large social group where keeping exclusively to one-on-one updates would require a huge amount of time and effort on everybody's part. (Which realistically often doesn't happen, leading to increased distance over time.)
You don't have to agree with this perception, but I think it's worth understanding that it exists, and understanding that some people actually value this behavior and the role that the information-sharers play.
posted by trig at 11:20 AM on May 17 [30 favorites]
You don't have to agree with this perception, but I think it's worth understanding that it exists, and understanding that some people actually value this behavior and the role that the information-sharers play.
posted by trig at 11:20 AM on May 17 [30 favorites]
I am your sister, the oldest of four with many years between me and my youngest sibling.
I want to tell you how incredibly, incredibly lonely and stressful it is to be parentalized at an early age. You call her sharing "family gossip"? She's doing kinship keeping in the only way she knows.
You asked for some grace in keeping your boundaries? She her some grace and have a fulsome discussion about where you stand. As for your BIL? He is a creep and your sister likely knew more about this as his former spouse as you did as a child.
posted by simonelikenina at 11:27 AM on May 17 [21 favorites]
I want to tell you how incredibly, incredibly lonely and stressful it is to be parentalized at an early age. You call her sharing "family gossip"? She's doing kinship keeping in the only way she knows.
You asked for some grace in keeping your boundaries? She her some grace and have a fulsome discussion about where you stand. As for your BIL? He is a creep and your sister likely knew more about this as his former spouse as you did as a child.
posted by simonelikenina at 11:27 AM on May 17 [21 favorites]
Response by poster: She's still married to the same guy.
posted by shocks connery at 11:43 AM on May 17
posted by shocks connery at 11:43 AM on May 17
I think your sister might be setting her own boundary by not speaking with you after that doozy of an email that was basically a lot of criticisms and old grievances. If you want to renew the relationship you can start by reaching out to her and finding out if she is willing to engage. Then maybe ask her how's she's doing.
posted by emd3737 at 11:47 AM on May 17 [6 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 11:47 AM on May 17 [6 favorites]
Yeah, you both clearly have a preference for passive asynchronous communication because it feels safer than direct negotiation/confrontation, but this is exactly the problem with it: you build up a giant grudge tsunami and then unleash it on someone, and there's just no way to respond to it all without another tsunami.
Writing these letters is great. Sending them isn't. You're supposed to use the letters to get it out and then sift through for the important parts.
The right thing to do, if you do anything, is to reach out and propose a series of at least audio if not video discussions, modest in duration (45 to maybe 75 minutes), to hash this stuff out and forge a mutually rewarding relationship going forward.
But if you're going to do that, you have to stop trying to solve your sister. For the most part, she is who she chooses to be, whether that's maladaptive or not is her jurisdiction. You know she's a gossip, all you can do is stop her IN THE MOMENT if she is telling you things you do not wish to hear because you know they were meant to be in confidence. But you also need to calibrate between your discomfort for your own possibly-adjustable reasons and her doing something actually unreasonable, like expecting you to be a (possibly rare?) vector of support as her child navigates gender - something easily resolved by saying "they're okay with you sharing this, right?".
I'd bet money your sister thought she was doing her lifelong job and doing what you wanted (or what was "best") by announcing your name change, if you weren't super-extra explicit about not telling anyone (and if it was actually a secret you shouldn't have told her). The discomfort here is something you helped create, and you seem to be high-trigger about every single thing your family does ever and there's this attitude underneath all your descriptions that all of this is orchestrated specifically to make you uncomfortable instead of you maybe working on this a little?
Like, if you want to be estranged from your family, just do it and own it and accept someone might think poorly of you. Not all families are good, or safe, or can be rendered safe-ish with boundaries. But if the part you want to play here is Black Sheep, why not lean in instead of doing it passively? My family was annoyingly secret-keepy until I one day declared you better not tell me if you want it kept secret, and I'm no longer distributing any information unless I'm willing to issue a press release, this is bullshit, I'm done. When you know your sister is a gossip, the appropriate response is to stop receiving or giving her gossip. If you want to know wtf that thing with her husband was, ASK HER.
Boundaries are not a big stick for your trauma responses to beat people with. Boundaries are the breezy little air circulation of you exiting a scene - politely, even kindly - when you choose not to participate in something. Boundaries are specifically meant to define your behavior, and that may be a consequence to someone else's behavior but it is not meant to be "I told you once to never suggest convenient lies to me again and I am offended that you did". Those things, those "do not ever do this" things, you have to budget those for the most urgent of requests. Otherwise, you're going to have to learn to just shake your head, or laugh and say, "you know I don't come from the 'convenient lie' side of the family, sis!"
Your only sustainable option in life is to accept and love people for who they are exactly in the moment, flaws and strengths, and internalize that who they are is not about you, isn't a criticism of you, and isn't controllable by you. You and your sister grew up in a tough environment, you both clearly took some damage and may inadvertently have buttons that push each other, or opposing trauma responses to the same trauma. But I think you've become so hyperattuned to the negative that you've forgotten to look for positives and I think maybe have forgotten to/lost the habit to assume good faith from your sister in her actions.
I would certainly assume your sister found out Some Shit about her husband, hence the remote orders (delivered very poorly, sure) to cut off contact with him, and that a) it's not typical for Some Shit of that variety to go away so she's still dealing with whatever it is b) it was absolutely in your best interest. I think you know that, too, but you have lost the habit of assuming good faith and almost have a need for this to be another harm done to you.
It's okay to keep distance from your family if that's best practice, but it's still healthier for your brain to come at them as somewhat disastrous human beings that you love in spite of their flaws and in spite of your need for distance, rather than a team of ninjas laser-focused on creating misery for you personally in this life. You can learn to not go directly to dysregulation at the thought of them, and you can learn to unclench. It might be worth saying some of that to your sister, if you resume direct communication. Your need for control has to have boundaries as well - you can only control you.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:50 AM on May 17 [23 favorites]
Writing these letters is great. Sending them isn't. You're supposed to use the letters to get it out and then sift through for the important parts.
The right thing to do, if you do anything, is to reach out and propose a series of at least audio if not video discussions, modest in duration (45 to maybe 75 minutes), to hash this stuff out and forge a mutually rewarding relationship going forward.
But if you're going to do that, you have to stop trying to solve your sister. For the most part, she is who she chooses to be, whether that's maladaptive or not is her jurisdiction. You know she's a gossip, all you can do is stop her IN THE MOMENT if she is telling you things you do not wish to hear because you know they were meant to be in confidence. But you also need to calibrate between your discomfort for your own possibly-adjustable reasons and her doing something actually unreasonable, like expecting you to be a (possibly rare?) vector of support as her child navigates gender - something easily resolved by saying "they're okay with you sharing this, right?".
I'd bet money your sister thought she was doing her lifelong job and doing what you wanted (or what was "best") by announcing your name change, if you weren't super-extra explicit about not telling anyone (and if it was actually a secret you shouldn't have told her). The discomfort here is something you helped create, and you seem to be high-trigger about every single thing your family does ever and there's this attitude underneath all your descriptions that all of this is orchestrated specifically to make you uncomfortable instead of you maybe working on this a little?
Like, if you want to be estranged from your family, just do it and own it and accept someone might think poorly of you. Not all families are good, or safe, or can be rendered safe-ish with boundaries. But if the part you want to play here is Black Sheep, why not lean in instead of doing it passively? My family was annoyingly secret-keepy until I one day declared you better not tell me if you want it kept secret, and I'm no longer distributing any information unless I'm willing to issue a press release, this is bullshit, I'm done. When you know your sister is a gossip, the appropriate response is to stop receiving or giving her gossip. If you want to know wtf that thing with her husband was, ASK HER.
Boundaries are not a big stick for your trauma responses to beat people with. Boundaries are the breezy little air circulation of you exiting a scene - politely, even kindly - when you choose not to participate in something. Boundaries are specifically meant to define your behavior, and that may be a consequence to someone else's behavior but it is not meant to be "I told you once to never suggest convenient lies to me again and I am offended that you did". Those things, those "do not ever do this" things, you have to budget those for the most urgent of requests. Otherwise, you're going to have to learn to just shake your head, or laugh and say, "you know I don't come from the 'convenient lie' side of the family, sis!"
Your only sustainable option in life is to accept and love people for who they are exactly in the moment, flaws and strengths, and internalize that who they are is not about you, isn't a criticism of you, and isn't controllable by you. You and your sister grew up in a tough environment, you both clearly took some damage and may inadvertently have buttons that push each other, or opposing trauma responses to the same trauma. But I think you've become so hyperattuned to the negative that you've forgotten to look for positives and I think maybe have forgotten to/lost the habit to assume good faith from your sister in her actions.
I would certainly assume your sister found out Some Shit about her husband, hence the remote orders (delivered very poorly, sure) to cut off contact with him, and that a) it's not typical for Some Shit of that variety to go away so she's still dealing with whatever it is b) it was absolutely in your best interest. I think you know that, too, but you have lost the habit of assuming good faith and almost have a need for this to be another harm done to you.
It's okay to keep distance from your family if that's best practice, but it's still healthier for your brain to come at them as somewhat disastrous human beings that you love in spite of their flaws and in spite of your need for distance, rather than a team of ninjas laser-focused on creating misery for you personally in this life. You can learn to not go directly to dysregulation at the thought of them, and you can learn to unclench. It might be worth saying some of that to your sister, if you resume direct communication. Your need for control has to have boundaries as well - you can only control you.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:50 AM on May 17 [23 favorites]
I agree with those saying that the email was not a productive way to go about things. I also agree with those pointing out that what you derisively label "gossip" is what other people would label "sharing family news." It's unusual to not want to hear news of your family members - your sister probably viewed sharing such information as a kindness, and so for you then to lash out at her in email for doing this - well, I'm not surprised she responded with silence. It's ok to not want her to share information about yourself with others - but as people have pointed out, you have to make that clear to her. It's not fair to get angry at her for sharing information about yourself that you didn't explain was private.
Clearly your family dynamics are complicated and I imagine there is more than you managed to fit in one post, but I would send her an apology card. Clearly the fact she's gone silent is bothering you, and it seems like you feel some remorse (or are at least questioning whether you made a mistake). I also agree that bringing up the BIL was wrong in email, especially given that it sounds like you blamed her for what happened - when yeah, as others have said, it was his fault. So I'd send an apology, let her know you regret how you went about it, you miss her, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 12:12 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
Clearly your family dynamics are complicated and I imagine there is more than you managed to fit in one post, but I would send her an apology card. Clearly the fact she's gone silent is bothering you, and it seems like you feel some remorse (or are at least questioning whether you made a mistake). I also agree that bringing up the BIL was wrong in email, especially given that it sounds like you blamed her for what happened - when yeah, as others have said, it was his fault. So I'd send an apology, let her know you regret how you went about it, you miss her, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 12:12 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
Okay, some speculation. Let's talk about this brother in law. Imagine you are in your early 30s (right?) and married to (or dating seriously) a man who seems to have a connection with your teen sister that you've helped raise. Maybe you feel comfortable with it, maybe you are queasy. Then you find out, perhaps because he told you or perhaps some other way, that your partner is actually interested romantically and sexually in your teen sister, that he's created a fantasy of her as an ideal partner. I imagine this would be a really complicated emotional situation: perhaps revulsion and disgust at your partner for an interest in anyone else, never mind a teen girl; shock, at not having understood what was in front your eyes; guilt, at having allowed and perhaps even encouraged the relationship between the two of them when it was your job to help protect and parent her; and maybe, horribly, even a bit of jealousy that your teen sister is attracting your partner's attention. What a stew!
So you, the older sister, the one who is supposed to be in charge, need this to end, fast. You tell your partner that he can't communicate with your sister anymore, and you tell the sister the same thing, to protect her from the incredibly inappropriate attention and grooming from an older male relative, and perhaps to try to salvage your own marriage.
Now imagine, 25 years later, that same sister, now an adult, has emailed you accusing you of taking away that important relationship from her, and asking you to share the email with your husband. Does the younger sister know what was going on all that time ago? Should you tell her now? Has your husband been continuing to cultivate something with her? Does she feel a connection to him? I imagine this would also bring up a lot of painful memories and create some real upset and confusion to sort through.
I'm not clear on the timeline of all this, but is it possible that this is connected to why you were sent away to school? To protect you from him? I'm not saying that was the best way to handle this situation (send away the man, not the teen girl), but could that have been part of the thinking in your family?
Your family maybe does have a secret that has been kept from you all these years. Or maybe the scenario that I've outlined here is totally off. But I suspect whatever happened then might be a big part of the complicated stuff between you all now. There was something very inappropriate that happened, and maybe more than you know.
As for the other stuff: I think it's okay to draw an explicit boundary and say, "Please do not tell me things about other family members that they didn't ask you to share, or ask you not to share. I don't want to know." It's also good to make it clear, when you share something like a name change, whether you want that to be shared or not. It's also okay not to tell people things you don't want them to tell others.
I don't know if you are doing all this explicitly, so that's something to reflect on.
If you want to try to repair and reconnect with your sister, I'd suggest calling or texting and saying, "I love you and I miss you. Is there a way we can move forward from here?" And then really listen to what she says.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:40 PM on May 17 [10 favorites]
So you, the older sister, the one who is supposed to be in charge, need this to end, fast. You tell your partner that he can't communicate with your sister anymore, and you tell the sister the same thing, to protect her from the incredibly inappropriate attention and grooming from an older male relative, and perhaps to try to salvage your own marriage.
Now imagine, 25 years later, that same sister, now an adult, has emailed you accusing you of taking away that important relationship from her, and asking you to share the email with your husband. Does the younger sister know what was going on all that time ago? Should you tell her now? Has your husband been continuing to cultivate something with her? Does she feel a connection to him? I imagine this would also bring up a lot of painful memories and create some real upset and confusion to sort through.
I'm not clear on the timeline of all this, but is it possible that this is connected to why you were sent away to school? To protect you from him? I'm not saying that was the best way to handle this situation (send away the man, not the teen girl), but could that have been part of the thinking in your family?
Your family maybe does have a secret that has been kept from you all these years. Or maybe the scenario that I've outlined here is totally off. But I suspect whatever happened then might be a big part of the complicated stuff between you all now. There was something very inappropriate that happened, and maybe more than you know.
As for the other stuff: I think it's okay to draw an explicit boundary and say, "Please do not tell me things about other family members that they didn't ask you to share, or ask you not to share. I don't want to know." It's also good to make it clear, when you share something like a name change, whether you want that to be shared or not. It's also okay not to tell people things you don't want them to tell others.
I don't know if you are doing all this explicitly, so that's something to reflect on.
If you want to try to repair and reconnect with your sister, I'd suggest calling or texting and saying, "I love you and I miss you. Is there a way we can move forward from here?" And then really listen to what she says.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:40 PM on May 17 [10 favorites]
I find it interesting that your interpretation of your sister's silence is that she is respecting your boundaries by not talking to you -- that seems like a very solipsistic interpretation. My first guess about why she is not communicating would be that she found your invocation of the creepy and inappropriate situation with your BIL upsetting and traumatic. Maybe she repressed something that transpired in that time period in order to stay married to him, whether it related to you or not (count me as one of the people who read his "confession" to you as testing the waters with you, and this "other woman" was you, his 15 year old niece!), but you bringing it up and on top of it making yourself a victim of her decisions in this situation might feel unbearable to her to the extent that she doesn't want to engage with you.
If that is that is going on, I don't know how you fix it. I guess gradually re-normalizing at whatever family functions you do make it to is probably the best route. I am personally all in favor of processing and hashing things out but that is clearly not the emotional culture in your family, and your relationship with your sister may hinge on you not doing that with her.
posted by virve at 2:44 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
If that is that is going on, I don't know how you fix it. I guess gradually re-normalizing at whatever family functions you do make it to is probably the best route. I am personally all in favor of processing and hashing things out but that is clearly not the emotional culture in your family, and your relationship with your sister may hinge on you not doing that with her.
posted by virve at 2:44 PM on May 17 [6 favorites]
I’m sorry, what? Boundaries are “Sis, I understand you had good intentions but I would prefer if you didn’t share any news from me with the rest of the family, I’m healing and don’t feel comfortable with them.” Then watching what happens, and no longer sharing with her if she can’t respect that boundary.
You dumped a LOT on her in one email, and if I were her I have no idea what I would say in response. She’s probably hurt and blindsided. These issue all deserve their own conversation, to say the least. I think you need to step away from your relationship with your sister and let her be herself. You say you understand she was put in an unfair position, but based on the feelings you’ve shared here you don’t really understand what she went through.
posted by stoneandstar at 2:55 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
You dumped a LOT on her in one email, and if I were her I have no idea what I would say in response. She’s probably hurt and blindsided. These issue all deserve their own conversation, to say the least. I think you need to step away from your relationship with your sister and let her be herself. You say you understand she was put in an unfair position, but based on the feelings you’ve shared here you don’t really understand what she went through.
posted by stoneandstar at 2:55 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
God, I just reread your post and it is dripping with contempt for your sister. She is probably processing the fact that she wasted her life being a surrogate parent to a bunch of other now-adults who were too traumatized by your actual parents to feel any bond with her or appreciate her (inadequate but likely wholehearted) attempts.
WTF is the deal with keeping your husband and me from being pals (back in the day)? Losing him was destructive in my life, and if you don’t trust him, why am I the one to suffer for it?
This is really grotesque. Your BIL crossed a major line in multiple ways. Your sister tried to keep him away from you, RIGHTLY. Should she have left him? Probably, yes. But what on earth are you trying to accuse her of, here? She’s fully responsible for his shithead behavior, because… ? Why exactly? Why is your sister responsible for everyone else on earth, including you? Do you look back at your 16-year-old self and think “hmm, the main thing I needed at that age was a relationship ship with a 30 year old groomer who was actively humiliating my older sister!” Do you feel literally any affection or loyalty toward your sister? Why do you even want a relationship with her (besides the need for a whipping girl for the problems of your family at large)?
She probably hates your dad because she was doing his fucking job all her life. Get therapy!! Literally as fast as you can.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:07 PM on May 17 [32 favorites]
WTF is the deal with keeping your husband and me from being pals (back in the day)? Losing him was destructive in my life, and if you don’t trust him, why am I the one to suffer for it?
This is really grotesque. Your BIL crossed a major line in multiple ways. Your sister tried to keep him away from you, RIGHTLY. Should she have left him? Probably, yes. But what on earth are you trying to accuse her of, here? She’s fully responsible for his shithead behavior, because… ? Why exactly? Why is your sister responsible for everyone else on earth, including you? Do you look back at your 16-year-old self and think “hmm, the main thing I needed at that age was a relationship ship with a 30 year old groomer who was actively humiliating my older sister!” Do you feel literally any affection or loyalty toward your sister? Why do you even want a relationship with her (besides the need for a whipping girl for the problems of your family at large)?
She probably hates your dad because she was doing his fucking job all her life. Get therapy!! Literally as fast as you can.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:07 PM on May 17 [32 favorites]
Honestly, I'm hopeful this email to your sister showed her what boundaries SHE needs to put up with you. I really feel for her (despite how contemptuously you write about her), and cannot believe the lack of empathy for her, both in childhood and adulthood. I was also the oldest, also parentified, and unless you've gone through this, you truly have no idea the challenges this brings up in adulthood (and trying to un-do it).
Agree with those above that you would be better served working on yourself, and not trying to so intensely control your sister; your judgement of her is breath-taking.
Also, your BIL was being a creep. She put a stop to that. And someone that is HER fault? WTF??
If you reach out at all, it should be to apologize. Otherwise, I'd leave her alone. You were very unkind, and it doesn't matter how many generic "hope this doesn't cause you distress!" lines you drop.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 3:18 PM on May 17 [8 favorites]
Agree with those above that you would be better served working on yourself, and not trying to so intensely control your sister; your judgement of her is breath-taking.
Also, your BIL was being a creep. She put a stop to that. And someone that is HER fault? WTF??
If you reach out at all, it should be to apologize. Otherwise, I'd leave her alone. You were very unkind, and it doesn't matter how many generic "hope this doesn't cause you distress!" lines you drop.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 3:18 PM on May 17 [8 favorites]
It's not an unexpected result if your sister is not talking to you - that's how boundaries work. She's respecting your boundaries and enforcing her own. She's probably hurt and protecting herself - just what you would do in similar circumstances. When she hurts your feelings, you withdraw from her. When your family distresses you because they make you feel gross and uneasy, you retreat so you don't have to feel gross and uneasy. You've withdrawn from your family in a lot of ways. Similarly, your sister is withdrawing from you right now.
Keep in mind that your sister may not have a clue what to say to you now - she can't talk about those events and people that you have in common, because you consider it gossiping. She likely doesn't want to talk about you, because if she does, then she has to remember not to share any of that information with other people. And she probably doesn't feel comfortable talking about herself because you have criticized her and she won't feel safe or confident that you will react well and be supportive. Every other topic - films, books, politics etc. she can talk about with anyone, because she shares that as much with them as she does with you. You may have left her with nothing to talk about that she considers worth discussing.
Another reason she probably doesn't want to tell you how she feels is because the email you sent her was about your pain, with her in the role of being the person who inflicted pain on you. She can't explain herself or justify what she did as that would be negating your pain and arguing with you. She probably doesn't want to tell you that she is hurting from what you said, because you said things that that you knew would probably hurt her. She can't simply turn off her feelings about what you said. I really can't imagine any topic that she would feel comfortable with right now. There is a very good chance that she has withdrawn to avoid saying or doing anything that would hurt you more, not just retreated to avoid allowing you to hurt her more.
Sometimes you can repair a relationship where you hurt someone by apologizing and making reparation. Unfortunately for your relationship with your sister, it could easily be that she feels like she is the injured party now, so there is scant chance that she will give you a detailed warm apology, admit her fault and do additional emotional labour to console you for the pain she caused you. From the other side, since you are the injured party in this, apology and reparation on your part are not appropriate. That is, unless you actually do think now that you were being unreasonable and unkind. If you want a do-over because you think you made a mistake you can try reaching out and apologizing and validating her. Usually when you have a bad relationship with someone, where there are long standing issues, apologizing doesn't work very well, because, of course, it doesn't restore trust when the incident was not a one off. It doesn't look like an apology will turn the two of you into good friends who are relaxed and happy interacting with each other.
So now there is a nice firm boundary between the two of you. It sucks that this is maybe not the boundary that you wanted to erect. But at least you have the boundary. She will not be sharing new information about you with the family, nor sharing new information about your family with you. Essentially, you told her you didn't want to be included in the social stuff in the family - and you got what you wanted.
I'm thinking you have to learn to like what you got. You can't undo it. And it was, more or less, what you were requesting from her. Can you focus on that? She used to upset and distress you when she talked to you, she bored you, and she made you think about things you didn't want to think about. It might have gone better - but there isn't a clear answer as to what would have been a better result than the one you got. Your sister wasn't going to change because you successfully set a boundary. She was just going to stop doing what she does in your direction. It was a bad relationship that made you feel bad. Perhaps your best way forward is to be glad that you don't have to interact with her and feel uncomfortable any more.
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:56 PM on May 17 [15 favorites]
Keep in mind that your sister may not have a clue what to say to you now - she can't talk about those events and people that you have in common, because you consider it gossiping. She likely doesn't want to talk about you, because if she does, then she has to remember not to share any of that information with other people. And she probably doesn't feel comfortable talking about herself because you have criticized her and she won't feel safe or confident that you will react well and be supportive. Every other topic - films, books, politics etc. she can talk about with anyone, because she shares that as much with them as she does with you. You may have left her with nothing to talk about that she considers worth discussing.
Another reason she probably doesn't want to tell you how she feels is because the email you sent her was about your pain, with her in the role of being the person who inflicted pain on you. She can't explain herself or justify what she did as that would be negating your pain and arguing with you. She probably doesn't want to tell you that she is hurting from what you said, because you said things that that you knew would probably hurt her. She can't simply turn off her feelings about what you said. I really can't imagine any topic that she would feel comfortable with right now. There is a very good chance that she has withdrawn to avoid saying or doing anything that would hurt you more, not just retreated to avoid allowing you to hurt her more.
Sometimes you can repair a relationship where you hurt someone by apologizing and making reparation. Unfortunately for your relationship with your sister, it could easily be that she feels like she is the injured party now, so there is scant chance that she will give you a detailed warm apology, admit her fault and do additional emotional labour to console you for the pain she caused you. From the other side, since you are the injured party in this, apology and reparation on your part are not appropriate. That is, unless you actually do think now that you were being unreasonable and unkind. If you want a do-over because you think you made a mistake you can try reaching out and apologizing and validating her. Usually when you have a bad relationship with someone, where there are long standing issues, apologizing doesn't work very well, because, of course, it doesn't restore trust when the incident was not a one off. It doesn't look like an apology will turn the two of you into good friends who are relaxed and happy interacting with each other.
So now there is a nice firm boundary between the two of you. It sucks that this is maybe not the boundary that you wanted to erect. But at least you have the boundary. She will not be sharing new information about you with the family, nor sharing new information about your family with you. Essentially, you told her you didn't want to be included in the social stuff in the family - and you got what you wanted.
I'm thinking you have to learn to like what you got. You can't undo it. And it was, more or less, what you were requesting from her. Can you focus on that? She used to upset and distress you when she talked to you, she bored you, and she made you think about things you didn't want to think about. It might have gone better - but there isn't a clear answer as to what would have been a better result than the one you got. Your sister wasn't going to change because you successfully set a boundary. She was just going to stop doing what she does in your direction. It was a bad relationship that made you feel bad. Perhaps your best way forward is to be glad that you don't have to interact with her and feel uncomfortable any more.
posted by Jane the Brown at 3:56 PM on May 17 [15 favorites]
And I am afraid my sister genuinely lacks the skills to even respond to me.
Just for the record, I don’t even know what “the skills” are that a person would need to respond to your email. The skill of abandoning their self in order to be a container for your spite and unhealed emotions… ? You are still projecting a parent fantasy onto her. (And then scratching your head about why she behaves in such annoyingly parent-y ways.)
It’s a lot harder to deal with condescension and tantrums from your younger sibling when they are a middle aged adult and not a teenager. You are looking down on her SO HARD, but this post really makes it clear how immature and unhealed you still are over your family of origin.
Jane the Brown is right, you got what you wanted. It’s worth thinking about why this actually matters to you. What did you want from your sister that you’re not getting now? If you want a relationship, you need respect, love and empathy for her. You have at most one of those now.
posted by stoneandstar at 4:08 PM on May 17 [7 favorites]
Just for the record, I don’t even know what “the skills” are that a person would need to respond to your email. The skill of abandoning their self in order to be a container for your spite and unhealed emotions… ? You are still projecting a parent fantasy onto her. (And then scratching your head about why she behaves in such annoyingly parent-y ways.)
It’s a lot harder to deal with condescension and tantrums from your younger sibling when they are a middle aged adult and not a teenager. You are looking down on her SO HARD, but this post really makes it clear how immature and unhealed you still are over your family of origin.
Jane the Brown is right, you got what you wanted. It’s worth thinking about why this actually matters to you. What did you want from your sister that you’re not getting now? If you want a relationship, you need respect, love and empathy for her. You have at most one of those now.
posted by stoneandstar at 4:08 PM on May 17 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Yes, I got what I wanted, as stated in the first sentence of my post. Can you take it easy on me for two seconds stoneandstar?
posted by shocks connery at 4:10 PM on May 17
posted by shocks connery at 4:10 PM on May 17
One thing that jumped out to me is that you phrased your wishes to your sister as orders, not requests or discussion openers. You said "I don’t want to hear other people’s private business from you", rather than"Hearing about other people's private business makes me feel gross. What's motivating you to share this info with me? Let's see if we can find a way to meet both your emotional needs and my needs."
In all of these points, you are advocating for your own needs (which is fine) but not even inquiring about your sister's needs. The way to bring two people closer is mutually disclosing needs and then figuring out how both people can compromise. Laying down unilateral demands is more like a young child with their parent, or an adult lording it over their domestic servant.
If you want to repair this, start with therapy on how you can reframe your expectations of your sister to be a symmetrical relationship. Only expect from her what you are willing to provide. Then apologize to her, and listen to her about her needs.
posted by vienna at 4:49 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
In all of these points, you are advocating for your own needs (which is fine) but not even inquiring about your sister's needs. The way to bring two people closer is mutually disclosing needs and then figuring out how both people can compromise. Laying down unilateral demands is more like a young child with their parent, or an adult lording it over their domestic servant.
If you want to repair this, start with therapy on how you can reframe your expectations of your sister to be a symmetrical relationship. Only expect from her what you are willing to provide. Then apologize to her, and listen to her about her needs.
posted by vienna at 4:49 PM on May 17 [4 favorites]
I finally communicated to Sis via text that I think we have an opportunity to become closer.
You set her up all wrong for this email if this is actually what you told her. This was an opportunity for you to have her captive attention while you listed all the ways she'd wronged you in the last 15 plus years? It was really disingenuous and a little cruel to lead her on like this.
posted by spacebologna at 5:09 PM on May 17 [14 favorites]
You set her up all wrong for this email if this is actually what you told her. This was an opportunity for you to have her captive attention while you listed all the ways she'd wronged you in the last 15 plus years? It was really disingenuous and a little cruel to lead her on like this.
posted by spacebologna at 5:09 PM on May 17 [14 favorites]
It's hard being the youngest in a big family. As the youngest, it can feel like being under constant scrutiny. Nobody really asks what you think or feel. Nothing's ever your fault either. Nothing makes sense because you're shielded from adult matters. It can seem like you have very little choice and that decisions are made without your input. Your feelings are dismissed as childish, and you are told, not asked, what you really need.
It seems that you are still grieving the childhood you wish you had. This is not easy, especially if you wanted for nothing in the material sense. My hope for you is that you get a chance to hear your sister's point of view. It's hard to understand until you've walked in her shoes – being in charge of young ones who don't realize or appreciate the effort, where anything can go wrong and everything is her fault.
At some point, thank her for everything she did for you, including things you didn't even know about. Then, if she wants to share, ask to hear more about her what was going on with her and with the family. And just listen.
posted by dum spiro spero at 5:10 PM on May 17 [9 favorites]
It seems that you are still grieving the childhood you wish you had. This is not easy, especially if you wanted for nothing in the material sense. My hope for you is that you get a chance to hear your sister's point of view. It's hard to understand until you've walked in her shoes – being in charge of young ones who don't realize or appreciate the effort, where anything can go wrong and everything is her fault.
At some point, thank her for everything she did for you, including things you didn't even know about. Then, if she wants to share, ask to hear more about her what was going on with her and with the family. And just listen.
posted by dum spiro spero at 5:10 PM on May 17 [9 favorites]
Everyone else above has it covered about how horrible it would feel to be on the receiving end of that email. You should take your email and your post, and go unpack it in a therapist’s office. I don’t mean that derisively - I genuinely think you need a safer space where you can start understanding yourself. You wrote in your post a pretty clear description of what sounds like highly inappropriate (maybe grooming?) behavior from your BIL, yet in your email to your sister you characterized the situation as her taking away a good relationship from you. (Even if you had been the same age it still would have been a fucked-up conversation for a man to have with his SIL.) It seems you need to get some clarity within yourself while you figure out what kind of relationship you really want with your sister.
posted by stowaway at 5:15 PM on May 17 [9 favorites]
posted by stowaway at 5:15 PM on May 17 [9 favorites]
It's perfectly understandable that you didn't get it at the time, but I am genuinely shocked that you don't see as an adult that BIL was grooming you. She was trying to protect you before things went further. Perhaps not in the ideal way, but it does seem to have averted the main threat.
posted by praemunire at 5:47 PM on May 17 [7 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 5:47 PM on May 17 [7 favorites]
People are being pretty harsh on you here, I think.
I also have much older (step) siblings who I think felt parentified at times. We haven't stayed close into adulthood despite being close with our married parents. I think a big part of that is that is that it was very difficult to transition to adult relationships since they weren't around when I was becoming my adult self. I've also had a difficult time with name change/gender stuff in relation to that part of my family, Im a more 1-1 relationships type of person as well.
All of this is to say that having had a lot of sinilar experiences, I know these are not easy situations to deal with and it's been really important for me learn to forgive myself for not handling them perfectly. I've made mistakes, my older stepsister has made mistakes, and the combination of those has seriously strained our relationship. For the most part I've accepted that, but sometimes I feel serious shame and guilt about it. Maybe things will change for us in the future, definitely someday our parents will die and we'll have to talk.
The white lie thing is also hard for me. I have a close friend who does this. I'm trying to accept that it's part of how she deals with natural tensions in relationships. I tell myself that neither my extreme directness not her sidestepping avoidance is "better," they're just different ways of coping with interpersonal discomfort. The important thing to me is to make sure that on important issues, we're able to be honest with each other. When I thi k my friend is lying to me I ask myself "is this important enough to push her comfort zone?" And if it isn't, I try to let it go.
Good luck with accepting these painful situations. They are unavoidable sometimes and we can only work on accepting the reality of them.
posted by Summers at 6:23 PM on May 17 [5 favorites]
I also have much older (step) siblings who I think felt parentified at times. We haven't stayed close into adulthood despite being close with our married parents. I think a big part of that is that is that it was very difficult to transition to adult relationships since they weren't around when I was becoming my adult self. I've also had a difficult time with name change/gender stuff in relation to that part of my family, Im a more 1-1 relationships type of person as well.
All of this is to say that having had a lot of sinilar experiences, I know these are not easy situations to deal with and it's been really important for me learn to forgive myself for not handling them perfectly. I've made mistakes, my older stepsister has made mistakes, and the combination of those has seriously strained our relationship. For the most part I've accepted that, but sometimes I feel serious shame and guilt about it. Maybe things will change for us in the future, definitely someday our parents will die and we'll have to talk.
The white lie thing is also hard for me. I have a close friend who does this. I'm trying to accept that it's part of how she deals with natural tensions in relationships. I tell myself that neither my extreme directness not her sidestepping avoidance is "better," they're just different ways of coping with interpersonal discomfort. The important thing to me is to make sure that on important issues, we're able to be honest with each other. When I thi k my friend is lying to me I ask myself "is this important enough to push her comfort zone?" And if it isn't, I try to let it go.
Good luck with accepting these painful situations. They are unavoidable sometimes and we can only work on accepting the reality of them.
posted by Summers at 6:23 PM on May 17 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I hope you're OK, OP.
A lot of intense answers here for you to process.
I'm someone who ruminates a lot, and often fantasises about sending letters to people as a way to deal with conflict and miscommunication. So I empathise with your attempt to connect with your sister in this way.
For going forward, my advice would be to approach any interaction with your sister in a spirit of curiosity, trusting that you'll be able to handle any conflict that might arise.
Try not to manage her reaction, or your own, pre emptively.
You might hurt her. She might hurt you. That's possible. It's not your duty or responsibility to avoid the feelings even before they happen.
You care about your sister, and you have complicated feelings. You're struggling with these strong feelings and flailing about a bit, and in the process you might have bruised her, and been bruised yourself.
If you contact her again, notice all your own attempts to manage and control these painful feelings. Beyond a certain point, don't rehearse the interaction.
When you notice yourself going "maybe if I say this, or use this method, she'll understand..." stop.
That's you pre emptively trying to control the situation, and she'll sense that.
Go into the conversation with a genuine attitude of "I don't know what my sister is feeling, I don't know what motivates her, but I hope she'll tell me."
posted by Zumbador at 9:49 PM on May 17 [15 favorites]
A lot of intense answers here for you to process.
I'm someone who ruminates a lot, and often fantasises about sending letters to people as a way to deal with conflict and miscommunication. So I empathise with your attempt to connect with your sister in this way.
For going forward, my advice would be to approach any interaction with your sister in a spirit of curiosity, trusting that you'll be able to handle any conflict that might arise.
Try not to manage her reaction, or your own, pre emptively.
You might hurt her. She might hurt you. That's possible. It's not your duty or responsibility to avoid the feelings even before they happen.
You care about your sister, and you have complicated feelings. You're struggling with these strong feelings and flailing about a bit, and in the process you might have bruised her, and been bruised yourself.
If you contact her again, notice all your own attempts to manage and control these painful feelings. Beyond a certain point, don't rehearse the interaction.
When you notice yourself going "maybe if I say this, or use this method, she'll understand..." stop.
That's you pre emptively trying to control the situation, and she'll sense that.
Go into the conversation with a genuine attitude of "I don't know what my sister is feeling, I don't know what motivates her, but I hope she'll tell me."
posted by Zumbador at 9:49 PM on May 17 [15 favorites]
Best answer: I think I get it. You're mad at her character trait of pretending everything is OK with her white lies and avoidance. The logical extension of that is her staying married to your groomer and avoiding divorce and confrontation.
She tolerated her husband and your bad parents. But even with that drive to not protect herself, she protected you when she realized her husband was grooming you.
If you want to have a relationship with her you should develop some empathy for her. Apologize and tell her you know she always did the best she could. She was dealt a bad hand by your parents.
You should also let yourself be mad at your parents for not providing you with the support you needed. Its not fair to blame your sister for her own coping mechanisms that she developed in response to their neglect.
posted by jello at 11:00 PM on May 17 [14 favorites]
She tolerated her husband and your bad parents. But even with that drive to not protect herself, she protected you when she realized her husband was grooming you.
If you want to have a relationship with her you should develop some empathy for her. Apologize and tell her you know she always did the best she could. She was dealt a bad hand by your parents.
You should also let yourself be mad at your parents for not providing you with the support you needed. Its not fair to blame your sister for her own coping mechanisms that she developed in response to their neglect.
posted by jello at 11:00 PM on May 17 [14 favorites]
In network theory you distinguish between weak and strong ties, depending on how densly knit the network is. This distinction is not at all about the depth or intensity of the connection, the profundity of feelings, the level of intimacy or sincerity. It is merely about whether the people you interact with also interact with each other. Family ties are usually strong ties. By prefering 1:1 and setting the corresponding boundaries, you have now turned those strong ties into weak ties.
There are good reasons for such a choice. Strong ties are strong, because everyone is always up in each other's business, and that can be stiffling and suffocating. It's why family can be such a trap. You have been loosening those ties for a while, and mostly seem to be thriving because of that. But of course there are always trade-offs.
Like anyone who hasn't always lived in the same place, I have a lot of weak ties - maybe even a bit more than most, because even when I'm in the same place for long times, I like moving in different circles and don't often mix friend groups. Weak ties are great to broaden your horizons and give you access to different sources of information and other resources. For these reasons, they are also often good for your career.
But weak ties are more easily cut. Again, not because the emotions involved are more shallow or something. It's simply that the effort of staying in touch is greater, because you are the only one responsible for it. Sometimes that work can be harder than other times, depending on your personality. I, for instance, often really suck at keeping in touch, because I tend to get this hermit-moods, when I just want to withdraw from everything. With strong ties, that's less of a problem, because the work of keeping in touch is distributed over the closely knit-network, it can be temporarily transfered to others, who update the rest of the network on your behalf, so that they roughly know what's up with you and don't feel like meeting a complete stranger once you eventually reappear at the scene. Also so that they know how to reach you, if they need you, even though you haven't talked to them in a while. That's what your sister has been doing with her "gossip".
But with weak ties, if you stop putting in effort, the relationship just evaporates. If you treasure your weak ties, you have to be keenly aware of this.
You say you love your dad more than your sister does. Yet she knew about his health-scare and you didn't. Why didn't he tell yourself? Could it be that you haven't been calling him all that often?
That's one of the big problem with weak ties. Sometimes you miss out on being there for people when they need you most, because you simply don't realize that they need you. Of course you hope that they would reach out to you in such a case, but that can be a big hurdle for some people. People often don't feel comfortable to burden someone with heavy stuff if they haven't talked in a while. You might have a chance to notice that something is off if you interact frequently. But if you don't....
Your sister told you about your dad, and you only saw the burden this placed on you, having to keep it from the rest of your family. I could imagine it was just as much of a burden to your sister, and that she hoped to lessen it by sharing it at least with you. Your sister may hate your father, but he's still her father, so her feelings are probably complicated. The idea of losing a parent can be hard, even if that parent failed you, because you now also lose any hope of them ever making it up to you. It can cause all sorts of complex grief and having no one to talk to about this makes it harder. This could have been your sister's offer to deepen your relationship. But you too lacked the skills to provide what she needed.
But who knows, maybe you both could benefit from loosening those ties. It seems to me your sister sometimes feels suffocated too. Her way of mitigating the whole "everyone up in each other's business"-aspect of strong ties are the white lies. White lies can be a fairly effective way to get people off your back without completly cutting them off - more effective that outright saying "That's none of your business/ I prefer to not share share this information", because that's just going to spark even more curiosity and inquirey, which can sometimes only be ended by ending the entire relationship.
I think you do actually intuitively grasp this, when you used a white lie to deny your name change in front of family members you did not want to know about this. Of course you feel like your sister forced you into this, but the alternative would have required her to tell the white lie on your behalf. If someone asks her what's up with you and she says "ah, nothing" although you actually changed your name, that's a white lie too! So clearly white lies sometimes do have their time and place.
I do think your relationship with your sister is salvagable (if that's what you want), but you probably can't have it entirely on your terms. You need to be prepared to renegotiate and for that it will probably be helpful to consider that her terms are not inherently more unreasonable than yours.
posted by sohalt at 1:41 AM on May 18 [21 favorites]
There are good reasons for such a choice. Strong ties are strong, because everyone is always up in each other's business, and that can be stiffling and suffocating. It's why family can be such a trap. You have been loosening those ties for a while, and mostly seem to be thriving because of that. But of course there are always trade-offs.
Like anyone who hasn't always lived in the same place, I have a lot of weak ties - maybe even a bit more than most, because even when I'm in the same place for long times, I like moving in different circles and don't often mix friend groups. Weak ties are great to broaden your horizons and give you access to different sources of information and other resources. For these reasons, they are also often good for your career.
But weak ties are more easily cut. Again, not because the emotions involved are more shallow or something. It's simply that the effort of staying in touch is greater, because you are the only one responsible for it. Sometimes that work can be harder than other times, depending on your personality. I, for instance, often really suck at keeping in touch, because I tend to get this hermit-moods, when I just want to withdraw from everything. With strong ties, that's less of a problem, because the work of keeping in touch is distributed over the closely knit-network, it can be temporarily transfered to others, who update the rest of the network on your behalf, so that they roughly know what's up with you and don't feel like meeting a complete stranger once you eventually reappear at the scene. Also so that they know how to reach you, if they need you, even though you haven't talked to them in a while. That's what your sister has been doing with her "gossip".
But with weak ties, if you stop putting in effort, the relationship just evaporates. If you treasure your weak ties, you have to be keenly aware of this.
You say you love your dad more than your sister does. Yet she knew about his health-scare and you didn't. Why didn't he tell yourself? Could it be that you haven't been calling him all that often?
That's one of the big problem with weak ties. Sometimes you miss out on being there for people when they need you most, because you simply don't realize that they need you. Of course you hope that they would reach out to you in such a case, but that can be a big hurdle for some people. People often don't feel comfortable to burden someone with heavy stuff if they haven't talked in a while. You might have a chance to notice that something is off if you interact frequently. But if you don't....
Your sister told you about your dad, and you only saw the burden this placed on you, having to keep it from the rest of your family. I could imagine it was just as much of a burden to your sister, and that she hoped to lessen it by sharing it at least with you. Your sister may hate your father, but he's still her father, so her feelings are probably complicated. The idea of losing a parent can be hard, even if that parent failed you, because you now also lose any hope of them ever making it up to you. It can cause all sorts of complex grief and having no one to talk to about this makes it harder. This could have been your sister's offer to deepen your relationship. But you too lacked the skills to provide what she needed.
But who knows, maybe you both could benefit from loosening those ties. It seems to me your sister sometimes feels suffocated too. Her way of mitigating the whole "everyone up in each other's business"-aspect of strong ties are the white lies. White lies can be a fairly effective way to get people off your back without completly cutting them off - more effective that outright saying "That's none of your business/ I prefer to not share share this information", because that's just going to spark even more curiosity and inquirey, which can sometimes only be ended by ending the entire relationship.
I think you do actually intuitively grasp this, when you used a white lie to deny your name change in front of family members you did not want to know about this. Of course you feel like your sister forced you into this, but the alternative would have required her to tell the white lie on your behalf. If someone asks her what's up with you and she says "ah, nothing" although you actually changed your name, that's a white lie too! So clearly white lies sometimes do have their time and place.
I do think your relationship with your sister is salvagable (if that's what you want), but you probably can't have it entirely on your terms. You need to be prepared to renegotiate and for that it will probably be helpful to consider that her terms are not inherently more unreasonable than yours.
posted by sohalt at 1:41 AM on May 18 [21 favorites]
What’s done is done. All you can do is try to patch things up with your sister now.
I suggest reaching out with an apology and acknowledgment that the email was hurtful, and ask to meet to make things right — but only if you are sincere about it. There needs to be some compromise here: you agree to be more open about your feelings and when you need privacy, she agrees to respect that privacy.
And you need to listen to her side too. I wouldn’t be surprised if she felt under-appreciated. It seems she was forced into parenting you all, and only received criticism for it (I doubt your siblings would have done a better job).
On the BIL thing — oh boy. Some perspective for you. If I received a bombshell like that, I would be reluctant to engage, and might even distance myself from you. I certainly wouldn’t feel like it was my job to reach out. (How much emotional labour and family relationship management have I already had to perform over the years?) My immediate reaction would go along these lines:
1. She’s been seething about this for 25 years?
2. Why bring this up now? To show I was a crappy sister for not reading her mind and acting with perfect foresight when I was reeling from my marriage crisis? To try and torpedo my marriage now?
3. Why doesn’t she recognise that this hurt for me too? My husband, who I exchanged vows with, was in love with my teen sister!
4. This now middle-aged sister still has feelings of some kind for him? What do I do with this information?
5. Given the dramatic nature of the email, what other decades-old grievances are about to be unleashed?
6. My marriage is stable now, whereas my sister thinks I’m some sort of monster and might create more drama for me and my family, or blame me for some other transgression I don’t know about. Maybe it’s best I leave things be.
All of which to say, you are on the back foot here and will probably need to be the one that extends the olive branch. Proceed with empathy and grace and really listen to her. Communicate in person, even if it hurts and you don’t feel the same control and clarity as when you write. Written messages are bound to be misinterpreted and taken out of context. Good luck!
posted by primavera_f at 2:39 AM on May 18 [4 favorites]
I suggest reaching out with an apology and acknowledgment that the email was hurtful, and ask to meet to make things right — but only if you are sincere about it. There needs to be some compromise here: you agree to be more open about your feelings and when you need privacy, she agrees to respect that privacy.
And you need to listen to her side too. I wouldn’t be surprised if she felt under-appreciated. It seems she was forced into parenting you all, and only received criticism for it (I doubt your siblings would have done a better job).
On the BIL thing — oh boy. Some perspective for you. If I received a bombshell like that, I would be reluctant to engage, and might even distance myself from you. I certainly wouldn’t feel like it was my job to reach out. (How much emotional labour and family relationship management have I already had to perform over the years?) My immediate reaction would go along these lines:
1. She’s been seething about this for 25 years?
2. Why bring this up now? To show I was a crappy sister for not reading her mind and acting with perfect foresight when I was reeling from my marriage crisis? To try and torpedo my marriage now?
3. Why doesn’t she recognise that this hurt for me too? My husband, who I exchanged vows with, was in love with my teen sister!
4. This now middle-aged sister still has feelings of some kind for him? What do I do with this information?
5. Given the dramatic nature of the email, what other decades-old grievances are about to be unleashed?
6. My marriage is stable now, whereas my sister thinks I’m some sort of monster and might create more drama for me and my family, or blame me for some other transgression I don’t know about. Maybe it’s best I leave things be.
All of which to say, you are on the back foot here and will probably need to be the one that extends the olive branch. Proceed with empathy and grace and really listen to her. Communicate in person, even if it hurts and you don’t feel the same control and clarity as when you write. Written messages are bound to be misinterpreted and taken out of context. Good luck!
posted by primavera_f at 2:39 AM on May 18 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I used to struggle a lot with my sister’s lies to me and others, but I got more ok with it when I started to understand *why* she was lying. She doesn’t believe that her own wants or needs will be respected if she states them outright. Perhaps she’ll be forced to defend them or explain more than she’s comfortable with, or they’ll be ignored altogether.
And just because I’d respect her wants and needs now doesn’t mean we have enough of a history of that one on one or in general in our family for it not to be reflexive for her to lie.
So now when she lies i take it as her enforcing a boundary and i respect it - not grudgingly, but with compassion and alacrity.
I hope this helps when you start reconnecting with your sister.
posted by congen at 4:36 AM on May 18 [11 favorites]
And just because I’d respect her wants and needs now doesn’t mean we have enough of a history of that one on one or in general in our family for it not to be reflexive for her to lie.
So now when she lies i take it as her enforcing a boundary and i respect it - not grudgingly, but with compassion and alacrity.
I hope this helps when you start reconnecting with your sister.
posted by congen at 4:36 AM on May 18 [11 favorites]
Best answer: Hey, I just want to commiserate with you that sisters are hard and families are hard. My older sister (by 5.5 years) was also parentified (RIP – she passed a few years ago from cancer).
One of the most helpful things I've read about parentification on askmefi are stoneandstar's comments on this post (which I also commented on) - I know they were really hard on you here, but please read their perspective. They describe their experience being parentified and having to take care of their younger sisters and I really saw a lot of my and my sister's relationship in there, being resentful about being parented by her etc. As I said in my comment on that post, I wish had something like stoneandstar's words earlier on so I could better understand my sister's experience of parentification and her perspective. So I hope that their comments give you some understanding of your sister's experience.
That being said, I agree with others here. Your email to your sis was not about boundaries but more a criticism of her choices and actions when she believed that she was doing the right thing.
So there was Dad's surgery and she's telling you but saying "don’t tell mom and dad you know." I understand that's a tough position to be in. Then you were changing your name. And you told Sis and she tells it to the family. I think this is her way to try to include you, like, you should know about Dad's surgery, even if he and Mom don't want you to know, and she told the family about your name so that they would know to call you by your new name. Maybe she saw her actions as being supportive of your name change, rather than about gossiping?
You value "don't tell people things unless you have their permission" and she values informing people for kinship tie reasons. If you view her actions from the lens of parentification, it's more clear why she did this.
Maybe she could have handled the BIL thing better: instead of making your roommate the intermediary (!) - she could have told you directly something like, "I've told BIL not to talk to you again and I don't want you to reach out to him either. I'm sorry. There are things going on in our marriage that would be inappropriate for you to know about, and that I want to protect you from." Instead of leaving you completely in the dark and sad about this relationship ending, and feeling no control because she made the choice for you (or he did). I do want to acknowledge that you were only 16 when that happened, and you're still kind of thinking from that age. This is understandable because that's what trauma does.
On the white lies thing, I think that was unnecessary. If you don't like her white lies, your choices are: don't ask for advice. Or if you do ask her, say, "Do you have any advice that doesn't involve any white lies?" And tell her, "I'm not going to tell white lies, you got anything else?" In which case she says no and you move on.
For issues one and two, I think that's something to bring to a therapist – how to tell your sister to not tell you about what's going on with people especially when they don't want you to know. My feeling is there WILL be something further down the line that your sis may want to tell you _because you should know_ (like someone is dying) and when you ask "why didn't you tell me?" She'll say "you told me in 2023 that you didn't want to hear about these things. I was just doing as you asked." Similarly, talk with a therapist about how you felt about her telling people your information. It likely felt like a betrayal, in addition to embarrassment, when she may think, "well why did you tell me if you didn't want me to tell others?" So she may see her role as the family informer (common in parentified siblings).
For issue 3, that was so long ago so maybe you can get some perspective on what and why it happened. And work with a therapist to deal with those feelings of loss and feeling in the dark about what happened.
>Literally anyone even vaguely familiar with my stress around this said it’s so simple, I have to talk to my sister. I have to take action.
Except that it's not so simple, as you have seen, and I kind of wish you had gone back to these people to have them read your email first. Even in the comments you're getting "Talk to your sister" advice again.
Going forward now, I think you should work with a therapist to fully understand your feelings about these incidences AND to understand where your sister is coming from. Find someone who specializes in age gap sibling relationships and parentification and trauma. Until you can better understand where your sister is coming from, her perspective, and own up to your words and actions towards her, I don't think you should talk to her. If you have to talk to her because of your dad, I would start with "Hey I've done a lot of reflecting on the email I sent and now that I look back on it, It wasn't the right move. I’m really sorry for hurting your feelings. I'm working on trying to understand myself better so that we can have a better relationship in the future. For right now, I think it's better if we keep some space." At least that shows her that you ARE thinking about her, from her POV, and reflecting on how your actions might have impacted her.
I also want to acknowledge that it's great you're posting here to get feedback. You are having that sense of curiosity that others mentioned. It's also not easy to post and have people be really hard on you.
I do wonder what kind of relationship you want with her going forward: You don't want to hear her tell you stuff about people if those people aren't ok with it (reasonable), and you don't want to tell her stuff in case she tells others. Maybe you can still ask for her advice, but if it's all little white lies, I don't know what else you'd talk about. Maybe I'm lacking for imagination about this though. Like I said, sisters are hard. Families are hard. I hope you find a really good therapist.
posted by foxjacket at 6:31 AM on May 18 [10 favorites]
One of the most helpful things I've read about parentification on askmefi are stoneandstar's comments on this post (which I also commented on) - I know they were really hard on you here, but please read their perspective. They describe their experience being parentified and having to take care of their younger sisters and I really saw a lot of my and my sister's relationship in there, being resentful about being parented by her etc. As I said in my comment on that post, I wish had something like stoneandstar's words earlier on so I could better understand my sister's experience of parentification and her perspective. So I hope that their comments give you some understanding of your sister's experience.
That being said, I agree with others here. Your email to your sis was not about boundaries but more a criticism of her choices and actions when she believed that she was doing the right thing.
So there was Dad's surgery and she's telling you but saying "don’t tell mom and dad you know." I understand that's a tough position to be in. Then you were changing your name. And you told Sis and she tells it to the family. I think this is her way to try to include you, like, you should know about Dad's surgery, even if he and Mom don't want you to know, and she told the family about your name so that they would know to call you by your new name. Maybe she saw her actions as being supportive of your name change, rather than about gossiping?
You value "don't tell people things unless you have their permission" and she values informing people for kinship tie reasons. If you view her actions from the lens of parentification, it's more clear why she did this.
Maybe she could have handled the BIL thing better: instead of making your roommate the intermediary (!) - she could have told you directly something like, "I've told BIL not to talk to you again and I don't want you to reach out to him either. I'm sorry. There are things going on in our marriage that would be inappropriate for you to know about, and that I want to protect you from." Instead of leaving you completely in the dark and sad about this relationship ending, and feeling no control because she made the choice for you (or he did). I do want to acknowledge that you were only 16 when that happened, and you're still kind of thinking from that age. This is understandable because that's what trauma does.
On the white lies thing, I think that was unnecessary. If you don't like her white lies, your choices are: don't ask for advice. Or if you do ask her, say, "Do you have any advice that doesn't involve any white lies?" And tell her, "I'm not going to tell white lies, you got anything else?" In which case she says no and you move on.
For issues one and two, I think that's something to bring to a therapist – how to tell your sister to not tell you about what's going on with people especially when they don't want you to know. My feeling is there WILL be something further down the line that your sis may want to tell you _because you should know_ (like someone is dying) and when you ask "why didn't you tell me?" She'll say "you told me in 2023 that you didn't want to hear about these things. I was just doing as you asked." Similarly, talk with a therapist about how you felt about her telling people your information. It likely felt like a betrayal, in addition to embarrassment, when she may think, "well why did you tell me if you didn't want me to tell others?" So she may see her role as the family informer (common in parentified siblings).
For issue 3, that was so long ago so maybe you can get some perspective on what and why it happened. And work with a therapist to deal with those feelings of loss and feeling in the dark about what happened.
>Literally anyone even vaguely familiar with my stress around this said it’s so simple, I have to talk to my sister. I have to take action.
Except that it's not so simple, as you have seen, and I kind of wish you had gone back to these people to have them read your email first. Even in the comments you're getting "Talk to your sister" advice again.
Going forward now, I think you should work with a therapist to fully understand your feelings about these incidences AND to understand where your sister is coming from. Find someone who specializes in age gap sibling relationships and parentification and trauma. Until you can better understand where your sister is coming from, her perspective, and own up to your words and actions towards her, I don't think you should talk to her. If you have to talk to her because of your dad, I would start with "Hey I've done a lot of reflecting on the email I sent and now that I look back on it, It wasn't the right move. I’m really sorry for hurting your feelings. I'm working on trying to understand myself better so that we can have a better relationship in the future. For right now, I think it's better if we keep some space." At least that shows her that you ARE thinking about her, from her POV, and reflecting on how your actions might have impacted her.
I also want to acknowledge that it's great you're posting here to get feedback. You are having that sense of curiosity that others mentioned. It's also not easy to post and have people be really hard on you.
I do wonder what kind of relationship you want with her going forward: You don't want to hear her tell you stuff about people if those people aren't ok with it (reasonable), and you don't want to tell her stuff in case she tells others. Maybe you can still ask for her advice, but if it's all little white lies, I don't know what else you'd talk about. Maybe I'm lacking for imagination about this though. Like I said, sisters are hard. Families are hard. I hope you find a really good therapist.
posted by foxjacket at 6:31 AM on May 18 [10 favorites]
Sister should not have been the one to share your name change without permission, she does owe you an apology for that. All of the rest of it is totally normal and you're being wildly unreasonable!
She sounds like she was actually a pretty great big sister. It REALLY wasn't fair for your parents to force her to parent you and the other siblings. When I was in college I did not meet one single person who would have been expected to bring their little relative with them to their dorm for a week - that is wildly unusual and she was really nice to do it. She was inexperienced, young and making her own mistakes, imperfect, but she kept you safe.
Not to project too much, but do consider that her nixing the sleepover may have been her reacting to some kind of trauma in her past that happened at a friend's house. I know a few people who are extremely suspicious about sleepovers because they themselves were bullied or even molested at a sleepover. Not saying that's what happened to her, but maybe it sheds light on a possible reason that older people might be strict to try to protect younger people.
Sis is allowed to have feelings and sometimes express them imperfectly or need to talk about them. And when she needs to talk, she should choose either a therapist, or a close person she trusts. Talking to you, her sibling, about your parents' health is 10000% appropriate!
Especially when you're opting out of group chats, of course she's trying to be considerate by telling you! And about opting out of group chats - I mean, do what you need to do - but also accept that by doing so, you are making extra work for people, in that they now have to remember to tell their news twice, and accept that sometimes they'll be too busy or overwhelmed (with health scares!) to make a second call and walk another person through it. So opting out means that sometimes you won't know if your dad has surgery coming up.
I wonder if you're actually mad / hurt at Dad for not telling you, you felt excluded and hurt that you didn't make the list of people who got told.... and you're scapegoating Sis as if she was wrong to include you? Also, you seem to be blaming her that you feltgworried - which is a normal reaction on your part, has nothing to do with her, she was probably feeling just as scared since he's her dad too! And also, again, if you just joined the group chat, even just once in a while for emergencies like that, you could commicerate with others and learn of urgent health updates, which would give you more of a feeling of fellowship and control. Not sure if you're aware, but you can join a chat and tell everyone you're "muting" it so it's in the background on your phone and you only read it when you want to, like when your parent is having surgery. Again you don't have to join the group chat - but honestly when someone is sick, it's kind of selfish to opt out of the easy way to get news, and expect others to give you custom updates, AND also be mad when they do! To me, it's super unfair to be mad at your sister for including you on that news - to my eye, she was being kind to you by including you, and you should be thanking her!
About her kid - a person telling their sibling (in a supportive or "working-through-it" way) about their child's gender exploration is generally 10000% acceptable. Especially if (reading between the lines?) your own gender expression or lifestyle isn't bound by traditional rules, it's fairly reasonable for her to think you'd be a good sounding board. And it's totally ok if you prefer not to be that sounding board! But you could just say so, "Hey convos about Kiddo's gender feel a bit weird to me, maybe I'm not the best person to talk to about this." or even share your reasoning, like "When you talk about Kiddo's gender I get a stomachache because I think about people talking about MY gender." Or whatever it is you feel.
I kind of feel like you're actually not being good at setting boundaries - it's a single sentence to ask her to stop with these updates, but you didn't say it - so you're just building up all these tiny resentments until they explode inappropriately.
As for the brother in law, what I detect is that you are HURT at HIM, that he didn't fight to keep talking to you, and you missed him (after he was a total shit and was rightfully asked to leave your family).... and you're blaming Sis for separating you. So unfair to her! Frankly a 30 year old befriending a teenager is already sketchy. For him to disclose his emotional cheating on his wife, NOT OK. When the wife is that teen's SISTER????? THAT IS WILDLY INAPPROPRIATE!!! Appalling, creepy, red flag behaviour. And the cherry on top was him saying "Oh I met another person like YOU and I'm falling in love". Your child eyes were flattered but you REALLY need to step back look at this with adult eyes now. Imagine one of your adult male peers in his 30s saying that shit to a child. It is TEXTBOOK grooming of a minor. He was testing if he could start talking about being "in love" with YOU so he could start sleeping with YOU.
By getting that creep out of your life, your sister very likely saved you from sexual abuse, so again, please thank her instead of blaming her when a (shitty creepy unethical) man made you feel abandoned.
Also, please take two seconds to realize that SHE is the one who was most harmed in that scenario! You lost a friend? Her HUSBAND had an affair (emotional? more? not much difference) AND revealed himself to be a pedo by flirting with her baby sibling. She must have been utterly devastated. There's not a textbook on how to handle that level of betrayal, and her saying "Get the eff out of our lives and stay away from my CHILD sibling" to her cheating husband is actually her setting excellent and healthy boundaries.
Honestly, I think you need to:
- Join the group chat, and keep it muted, but be ready to pop in when things heat up, so the family isn't on the hook to update you personally all the time. The reality is that your parents are not getting healthier. There will be more and more of these health emergencies, and you're being a burden to your siblings if you recuse yourself from the news stream.
- Work some of this stuff out in therapy asap, and write your sister another letter. Tell her whatever insights you get from therapy about how you were scapegoating her because you think of her as a parent not a person, beg her forgiveness for the mean things you put in the letter, and THANK HER her from saving you from sexual abuse at the hands of her own husband, which must have been absolutely excruciating for her.
She is a PERSON on her own journey, and she doesn't have to be perfect all the time. It's ok for you to set a boundary - in a single sentence or two, when something happens. "Hey, let's not talk about Dad, I'd rather not know." There is no call to write someone a screed and send it. Warning her "Hey a screed is coming" doesn't excuse the screed. Buttering someone up with "I love you" while ripping them a new asshole doesn't make it better. What you need to do is react factually and briefly when things happen. "This convo isn't really working for me, can we end it?" If you don't react in that way, you're likely saving things up and then over-reacting - and that's YOUR mis-step, not hers!
As was said above, a lot of what you felt was understandable - but it's a child's view. You're not a child any more, so it's time to delve deeper into these issues and find the adult perspective!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:43 AM on May 18 [6 favorites]
She sounds like she was actually a pretty great big sister. It REALLY wasn't fair for your parents to force her to parent you and the other siblings. When I was in college I did not meet one single person who would have been expected to bring their little relative with them to their dorm for a week - that is wildly unusual and she was really nice to do it. She was inexperienced, young and making her own mistakes, imperfect, but she kept you safe.
Not to project too much, but do consider that her nixing the sleepover may have been her reacting to some kind of trauma in her past that happened at a friend's house. I know a few people who are extremely suspicious about sleepovers because they themselves were bullied or even molested at a sleepover. Not saying that's what happened to her, but maybe it sheds light on a possible reason that older people might be strict to try to protect younger people.
Sis is allowed to have feelings and sometimes express them imperfectly or need to talk about them. And when she needs to talk, she should choose either a therapist, or a close person she trusts. Talking to you, her sibling, about your parents' health is 10000% appropriate!
Especially when you're opting out of group chats, of course she's trying to be considerate by telling you! And about opting out of group chats - I mean, do what you need to do - but also accept that by doing so, you are making extra work for people, in that they now have to remember to tell their news twice, and accept that sometimes they'll be too busy or overwhelmed (with health scares!) to make a second call and walk another person through it. So opting out means that sometimes you won't know if your dad has surgery coming up.
I wonder if you're actually mad / hurt at Dad for not telling you, you felt excluded and hurt that you didn't make the list of people who got told.... and you're scapegoating Sis as if she was wrong to include you? Also, you seem to be blaming her that you feltgworried - which is a normal reaction on your part, has nothing to do with her, she was probably feeling just as scared since he's her dad too! And also, again, if you just joined the group chat, even just once in a while for emergencies like that, you could commicerate with others and learn of urgent health updates, which would give you more of a feeling of fellowship and control. Not sure if you're aware, but you can join a chat and tell everyone you're "muting" it so it's in the background on your phone and you only read it when you want to, like when your parent is having surgery. Again you don't have to join the group chat - but honestly when someone is sick, it's kind of selfish to opt out of the easy way to get news, and expect others to give you custom updates, AND also be mad when they do! To me, it's super unfair to be mad at your sister for including you on that news - to my eye, she was being kind to you by including you, and you should be thanking her!
About her kid - a person telling their sibling (in a supportive or "working-through-it" way) about their child's gender exploration is generally 10000% acceptable. Especially if (reading between the lines?) your own gender expression or lifestyle isn't bound by traditional rules, it's fairly reasonable for her to think you'd be a good sounding board. And it's totally ok if you prefer not to be that sounding board! But you could just say so, "Hey convos about Kiddo's gender feel a bit weird to me, maybe I'm not the best person to talk to about this." or even share your reasoning, like "When you talk about Kiddo's gender I get a stomachache because I think about people talking about MY gender." Or whatever it is you feel.
I kind of feel like you're actually not being good at setting boundaries - it's a single sentence to ask her to stop with these updates, but you didn't say it - so you're just building up all these tiny resentments until they explode inappropriately.
As for the brother in law, what I detect is that you are HURT at HIM, that he didn't fight to keep talking to you, and you missed him (after he was a total shit and was rightfully asked to leave your family).... and you're blaming Sis for separating you. So unfair to her! Frankly a 30 year old befriending a teenager is already sketchy. For him to disclose his emotional cheating on his wife, NOT OK. When the wife is that teen's SISTER????? THAT IS WILDLY INAPPROPRIATE!!! Appalling, creepy, red flag behaviour. And the cherry on top was him saying "Oh I met another person like YOU and I'm falling in love". Your child eyes were flattered but you REALLY need to step back look at this with adult eyes now. Imagine one of your adult male peers in his 30s saying that shit to a child. It is TEXTBOOK grooming of a minor. He was testing if he could start talking about being "in love" with YOU so he could start sleeping with YOU.
By getting that creep out of your life, your sister very likely saved you from sexual abuse, so again, please thank her instead of blaming her when a (shitty creepy unethical) man made you feel abandoned.
Also, please take two seconds to realize that SHE is the one who was most harmed in that scenario! You lost a friend? Her HUSBAND had an affair (emotional? more? not much difference) AND revealed himself to be a pedo by flirting with her baby sibling. She must have been utterly devastated. There's not a textbook on how to handle that level of betrayal, and her saying "Get the eff out of our lives and stay away from my CHILD sibling" to her cheating husband is actually her setting excellent and healthy boundaries.
Honestly, I think you need to:
- Join the group chat, and keep it muted, but be ready to pop in when things heat up, so the family isn't on the hook to update you personally all the time. The reality is that your parents are not getting healthier. There will be more and more of these health emergencies, and you're being a burden to your siblings if you recuse yourself from the news stream.
- Work some of this stuff out in therapy asap, and write your sister another letter. Tell her whatever insights you get from therapy about how you were scapegoating her because you think of her as a parent not a person, beg her forgiveness for the mean things you put in the letter, and THANK HER her from saving you from sexual abuse at the hands of her own husband, which must have been absolutely excruciating for her.
She is a PERSON on her own journey, and she doesn't have to be perfect all the time. It's ok for you to set a boundary - in a single sentence or two, when something happens. "Hey, let's not talk about Dad, I'd rather not know." There is no call to write someone a screed and send it. Warning her "Hey a screed is coming" doesn't excuse the screed. Buttering someone up with "I love you" while ripping them a new asshole doesn't make it better. What you need to do is react factually and briefly when things happen. "This convo isn't really working for me, can we end it?" If you don't react in that way, you're likely saving things up and then over-reacting - and that's YOUR mis-step, not hers!
As was said above, a lot of what you felt was understandable - but it's a child's view. You're not a child any more, so it's time to delve deeper into these issues and find the adult perspective!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:43 AM on May 18 [6 favorites]
Oh my god, I misread, she STAYED MARRIED to a guy who cheated on her and groomed her baby sibling? Jesus, that's messed up. I still think she saved you from sexual abuse by separating you from the guy. And I still think you're unfairly scapegoating HER when HE'S the terrible one in that scenario.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:51 AM on May 18 [1 favorite]
posted by nouvelle-personne at 6:51 AM on May 18 [1 favorite]
I think you meant well and generally had positive (although naive and overeager) intentions to assert your preferences more but stay connected to her. And you're right that things that eroded your trust are corrosive so it's good to talk about your preferences. And whatever your missteps, it's clear they weren't for lack of trying. This kind of change is hard, and all of us make mistakes, you, her, etc. And you approached this post asking about the possible need to make amends.
Where I think you made a couple mistakes are:
1. It made things into a bigger deal than they needed to by putting them all in one email.
2. Were these things you communicated before? Sounds like you thanked her for some family news? It's ok to change your mind, but maybe she felt like you were blaming her for doing something you hadn't asked her not to do? (I might've overlooked something in your question.)
3. It may well have hurt to see herself through your eyes. She thought she was keeping you in the loop, but you see her as a gossip, etc. She may have felt foolish for thinking your relationship was good all this time. Or your kind statements might've softened this, IDK.
Going forward, it could help to address things when they're small and in the most minor way possible to get the point across. "Least said, soonest mended" is often true.
And remember that boundaries are things you create actively. There might be an early FYI speech, but after that (for something innocuous like telling you too much about another family member's life) they can start out gently like "hey, sorry to interrupt, but remember how I was saying I feel weird getting news about people second hand? Anyway you haven't told me about your garden!" ... "Oops, hey remember I don't want news?" ... "Ok, seems like we're out of things about ourselves to talk about, so let's catch up again next week, love ya!"
4. The BIL mistake is so very different from the rest of the things, and who knows exactly what happened or what she discovered. Those memories alone might be an entire tailspin for her.
5. Relatedly, it seems like doing more processing on your own with a therapist or other folks could be helpful. You deserve to get things off your chest and have your feelings validated. But not necessarily by her. (Do you know "comfort in, dump out" as a theory?)
Anyway, I see folks have a lot of different views on what to do next. You could potentially reach out with an apology along the lines that you reread and realized it was a LOT, that you can take more responsibility for communicating and other things, that you're sorry for the ways you blamed her for your experiences, and that you're especially sorry you mentioned her marriage and understand if she doesn't want to discuss it. You could ask if it would be possible to just forget about the email, or to talk things through to clear the air? She may still have too many feelings going on to respond, but at least you would have opened the door.
posted by slidell at 9:17 AM on May 18 [4 favorites]
Where I think you made a couple mistakes are:
1. It made things into a bigger deal than they needed to by putting them all in one email.
2. Were these things you communicated before? Sounds like you thanked her for some family news? It's ok to change your mind, but maybe she felt like you were blaming her for doing something you hadn't asked her not to do? (I might've overlooked something in your question.)
3. It may well have hurt to see herself through your eyes. She thought she was keeping you in the loop, but you see her as a gossip, etc. She may have felt foolish for thinking your relationship was good all this time. Or your kind statements might've softened this, IDK.
Going forward, it could help to address things when they're small and in the most minor way possible to get the point across. "Least said, soonest mended" is often true.
And remember that boundaries are things you create actively. There might be an early FYI speech, but after that (for something innocuous like telling you too much about another family member's life) they can start out gently like "hey, sorry to interrupt, but remember how I was saying I feel weird getting news about people second hand? Anyway you haven't told me about your garden!" ... "Oops, hey remember I don't want news?" ... "Ok, seems like we're out of things about ourselves to talk about, so let's catch up again next week, love ya!"
4. The BIL mistake is so very different from the rest of the things, and who knows exactly what happened or what she discovered. Those memories alone might be an entire tailspin for her.
5. Relatedly, it seems like doing more processing on your own with a therapist or other folks could be helpful. You deserve to get things off your chest and have your feelings validated. But not necessarily by her. (Do you know "comfort in, dump out" as a theory?)
Anyway, I see folks have a lot of different views on what to do next. You could potentially reach out with an apology along the lines that you reread and realized it was a LOT, that you can take more responsibility for communicating and other things, that you're sorry for the ways you blamed her for your experiences, and that you're especially sorry you mentioned her marriage and understand if she doesn't want to discuss it. You could ask if it would be possible to just forget about the email, or to talk things through to clear the air? She may still have too many feelings going on to respond, but at least you would have opened the door.
posted by slidell at 9:17 AM on May 18 [4 favorites]
Both you and your sister grew up under extremely painful circumstances and it would probably benefit you to talk about all this with a trained therapist. There is a lot to unpack here.
Your sister's silence resonates with me since I was the parentified elder child and am currently estranged from my younger sibling after receiving what sounds like a similar e-mail. In my case, their list of grievances--coming in lieu of an apology after ruining a family celebration that I had organized and paid for without any support from them or anyone else--made me realize that not only did they not love me, they held me in active contempt. The efforts I had been making to preserve connection since our mother's death were not just unwelcome but irritating and even painful to them and their family. I dropped the rope and set us all free.
It's entirely possible that your sister has made the same decision, in which case I hope you will be able to respect her boundaries. From her point of view, it might seem that you offered her a chance to become closer and then sucker-punched her with a list of old grievances, including issues about your relationship with her husband that might be new to her and are no doubt painful in any case. She might be feeling that a relationship with you is not worth the pain, drama, and judgement.
If you do want to reopen things, I recommend doing so only after you've had a chance to process your own issues with a professional, who can help decide what kind of connection you do want to have as an adult, and prepare you to not just to talk but to listen as well.
posted by rpfields at 9:38 AM on May 18 [14 favorites]
Your sister's silence resonates with me since I was the parentified elder child and am currently estranged from my younger sibling after receiving what sounds like a similar e-mail. In my case, their list of grievances--coming in lieu of an apology after ruining a family celebration that I had organized and paid for without any support from them or anyone else--made me realize that not only did they not love me, they held me in active contempt. The efforts I had been making to preserve connection since our mother's death were not just unwelcome but irritating and even painful to them and their family. I dropped the rope and set us all free.
It's entirely possible that your sister has made the same decision, in which case I hope you will be able to respect her boundaries. From her point of view, it might seem that you offered her a chance to become closer and then sucker-punched her with a list of old grievances, including issues about your relationship with her husband that might be new to her and are no doubt painful in any case. She might be feeling that a relationship with you is not worth the pain, drama, and judgement.
If you do want to reopen things, I recommend doing so only after you've had a chance to process your own issues with a professional, who can help decide what kind of connection you do want to have as an adult, and prepare you to not just to talk but to listen as well.
posted by rpfields at 9:38 AM on May 18 [14 favorites]
I commented before but also want to flag that the fact that she hates your dad could point to more painful experiences for her than you realize. Separately, some of this (like telling white lies) might be an adaptive mechanism she learned to cope. You don't say what all gives you an icky feeling about your family, but it sounds like this was a tough situation to grow up in for you both. She deserves compassion and understanding, just as you do (not that you have to be the one to give it to her and vice versa). I agree that unpacking all of this with someone supportive and trained, like a therapist, could really help.
posted by slidell at 9:45 AM on May 18 [2 favorites]
posted by slidell at 9:45 AM on May 18 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: For you voracious readers-
You are right, I owe Sis an apology, and I do miss her, and I do want to meet her where she is if she’s willing to let me.
To address some points some of you have made.
With my sister, I never used the actual word “boundaries,” I don’t think. Sorry, I definitely made it sound like I did because that’s the poorly-chosen word I used in this post. The heads up I gave my sister initially was I had “hard stuff” I wanted to get off my chest.
I knew an email was a way less favorable choice than in-person or via phone. The thing is, for 25 years I have been unable to use my verbal words with my sister, or anyone in my family, really. The fact I told her I love her is unusual because none of the adults in my family say stuff like that to each other, although most of my siblings are pretty lovey-dovey (in words, etc) to their own children. My family language is a lot of silence and jokes and burns. The in-laws all seem to categorize us as angry and poor communicators. I’m trying to be kinder and better at communicating. You’re helping.
I’ve seen a number of therapists throughout the years, my most recent therapist helped me make the most progress. And this whole thing with my sister, different aspects of it, definitely came up in sessions. “Take action,” is what my therapist said, many times, that stuck because I’m so inclined to just keep my mouth shut and be miserable when it comes to family stuff. (Outside of “family stuff” I have no problem sticking up for myself.) My voice never mattered in my family. And when I couldn’t find the words in real time, and when I couldn’t bring things up later, and when I got to be 28 and 35 and 42 years old, never having used my voice… I had to agree I needed to take action, I really tried to find my voice and find the courage and I know it sounds weaksauce or cowardly or whatever, but an email was better than NOTHING. And I would have been mad at myself if I left out something important. Turns out, I’m mad at myself, anyway. All those years, there were times I’d be sitting right across from my sister and my mouth would be open and I just never got the words out.
I mean, I wasn’t airing “15 years of grievances” or whatever. It’s my whole life of never stating my preferences. But specifically stuff in the past 3 years. And one “grievance” from last century. Just one!
Re: BIL, there was an Other Woman that my BIL fell for. Sure, I’ll accept that he had inappropriate, predatory feelings and behaviors toward me, but the OW was real and my sister knew about her. Completely agree that his convo with me was “testing the waters,” but he nearly left SIS for OW, and they went into therapy and they announced to everyone that they were fighting for their marriage, and of course I knew I was in no place to pipe up with my needs or my questions at that time. Or ever…
But (and this was in the email, too, which makes me look even worse to y’all who got sincerely angry with me??) my BIL did something egregious, quite recently. There was a family event last year, I was in attendance. It was a big, dressy event and lots of people were drinking, dancing, etc. And at the very end of the night, a hot dog vendor showed up and my gorgeous nieces were about to have their picture taken by BIL. They put the dogs in their mouth and BIL goes, “Yeah, that’s the money shot,” as he snapped the pic. I, again, did not speak up, this time as a really dumb but conscious decision– I was afraid that maybe it was harmless photography jargon– Oof. I was tipsy and didn’t want to ruin anything (I know! I know!)... my booze-addled brain just erred on the side of nonconfrontation because it was hard to believe how gross it actually was, hard to believe it was really happening. The pic came out great, but I can’t look at it. Sis had been standing right there. My email asked, can she imagine being in her early 20’s and having a nearly-60 y/o dude make a blow job reference at you while you have a hot dog inserted into your mouth? If it were me, I would have lost my appetite. Horror. Anger. I now very much wish I had stood up for my nieces at that moment, and I told Sis that. The young ladies acted unfazed, as one often would. So. That moment intensified my distress about my teenage experience with BIL.
No, people, I truly never considered that my sister was protecting me by cutting off my whatevership with BIL, but I believe you. Never occurred to me because my mental math went: If BIL is bad, and bad gets exiled, BIL can’t be bad. It blows my mind, right now, to understand that he is both bad and welcome at Christmas. I’m stunned. I suppose I don’t really need an explanation. Ew.
My Dad’s surgery was, I’ll just disclose it I guess, a pacemaker. You all might know this is a minor surgery but you all know a LOT of things that I don’t know. There had never been anything to worry about but I assumed otherwise. My sister helped with transportation or something, which is why she was in the know, but my parents are very private and they don’t tell us (grown kids) anything until after the fact. No one else knew. Sis told me flippantly about the surgery, and she was right to be unconcerned, but I assumed she was unconcerned due to hatred for the guy.
I remembered that elusive “fifth talking point” (yes, I hate myself. Don’t worry) in my letter to Sis, it spoke to unilateral decision-making. “Gossip” might not be the right word, but Sis sometimes decides to take charge of things and doesn’t factor in the wishes of the concerned parties. We lost our teenage nephew a couple years ago. His parents delegated the responsibility of informing the family to two specific people. Those people left me a couple voicemails saying I needed to call them. I was in the middle of a houseparty when I got the voicemails. What should have happened next is I call the people back, they tactfully (they have experience) make sure I’m somewhere where I can receive bad news, and carefully let me know this beloved kid died. But Sis had reasons for deciding, ya know what? I’mma just blurt it out on Shocks’ voicemail, even though it’s not my place and is explicitly against the wishes of the kid’s bereaved parents. And, that’s how I ended up scream-crying in the basement in utter confusion. Sis likes to be the one to make announcements, and yeah, I’d like to please have a boundary (or whatever it’s called) where if that happens again, I’m fucking done.
I realize I am still cataloging a bunch of imagined crimes. I see a lot of defense for my sister keeping me looped in, and for which I should be thankful, I’m hearing. I get that no one’s perfect.
No one’s asked but my parents, by the way, financially cut me off as a teenager, which is fine. I don’t feel entitled to money. But anyway, they are living in a fancy (IMHO) retirement facility with assisted care for when-needed. I had offered to stick around and help them, and I promise they don’t want anything from me. They don’t need rides. They don’t need money. My sister sees them regularly, as do many other family members. No one is forcing any labor of this sort on my sister, or leaving her to it.
But, yeah. She carries trauma and she has my empathy for that. My post (“dripping with contempt”? I think you’re just mistaking my shitty personality for contempt) captures some of that.
But you all have really heightened that sense of empathy in me. And, I know I’m emotionally arrested. I see it in every area of my life, and I’m doing work on it.
Thanks again, everyone who took the time to respond and, jeez, I’m impressed with your willingness to read all that.
Dumping all this is kinda cathartic and believe me, I could go on. Sis has told people lies on my behalf to try to hurt them. She told a different sister that I moved away to get away from her (other sister). Laundry list! Laundry list of grievances, I guess. I’m so sad about it. Mad. Sad. Wronged. Wrong. Low-contact is my speed with all these people, but Sis seems– always seemed– to want more than that. I won’t try to change or control her, I’ll stay in my lane, and THANK YOU for helping me find some words to navigate some of this with a bit more grace. I’m sorry for triggering some of you with my small mindedness. Big thanks, for real.
posted by shocks connery at 10:49 AM on May 18 [5 favorites]
You are right, I owe Sis an apology, and I do miss her, and I do want to meet her where she is if she’s willing to let me.
To address some points some of you have made.
With my sister, I never used the actual word “boundaries,” I don’t think. Sorry, I definitely made it sound like I did because that’s the poorly-chosen word I used in this post. The heads up I gave my sister initially was I had “hard stuff” I wanted to get off my chest.
I knew an email was a way less favorable choice than in-person or via phone. The thing is, for 25 years I have been unable to use my verbal words with my sister, or anyone in my family, really. The fact I told her I love her is unusual because none of the adults in my family say stuff like that to each other, although most of my siblings are pretty lovey-dovey (in words, etc) to their own children. My family language is a lot of silence and jokes and burns. The in-laws all seem to categorize us as angry and poor communicators. I’m trying to be kinder and better at communicating. You’re helping.
I’ve seen a number of therapists throughout the years, my most recent therapist helped me make the most progress. And this whole thing with my sister, different aspects of it, definitely came up in sessions. “Take action,” is what my therapist said, many times, that stuck because I’m so inclined to just keep my mouth shut and be miserable when it comes to family stuff. (Outside of “family stuff” I have no problem sticking up for myself.) My voice never mattered in my family. And when I couldn’t find the words in real time, and when I couldn’t bring things up later, and when I got to be 28 and 35 and 42 years old, never having used my voice… I had to agree I needed to take action, I really tried to find my voice and find the courage and I know it sounds weaksauce or cowardly or whatever, but an email was better than NOTHING. And I would have been mad at myself if I left out something important. Turns out, I’m mad at myself, anyway. All those years, there were times I’d be sitting right across from my sister and my mouth would be open and I just never got the words out.
I mean, I wasn’t airing “15 years of grievances” or whatever. It’s my whole life of never stating my preferences. But specifically stuff in the past 3 years. And one “grievance” from last century. Just one!
Re: BIL, there was an Other Woman that my BIL fell for. Sure, I’ll accept that he had inappropriate, predatory feelings and behaviors toward me, but the OW was real and my sister knew about her. Completely agree that his convo with me was “testing the waters,” but he nearly left SIS for OW, and they went into therapy and they announced to everyone that they were fighting for their marriage, and of course I knew I was in no place to pipe up with my needs or my questions at that time. Or ever…
But (and this was in the email, too, which makes me look even worse to y’all who got sincerely angry with me??) my BIL did something egregious, quite recently. There was a family event last year, I was in attendance. It was a big, dressy event and lots of people were drinking, dancing, etc. And at the very end of the night, a hot dog vendor showed up and my gorgeous nieces were about to have their picture taken by BIL. They put the dogs in their mouth and BIL goes, “Yeah, that’s the money shot,” as he snapped the pic. I, again, did not speak up, this time as a really dumb but conscious decision– I was afraid that maybe it was harmless photography jargon– Oof. I was tipsy and didn’t want to ruin anything (I know! I know!)... my booze-addled brain just erred on the side of nonconfrontation because it was hard to believe how gross it actually was, hard to believe it was really happening. The pic came out great, but I can’t look at it. Sis had been standing right there. My email asked, can she imagine being in her early 20’s and having a nearly-60 y/o dude make a blow job reference at you while you have a hot dog inserted into your mouth? If it were me, I would have lost my appetite. Horror. Anger. I now very much wish I had stood up for my nieces at that moment, and I told Sis that. The young ladies acted unfazed, as one often would. So. That moment intensified my distress about my teenage experience with BIL.
No, people, I truly never considered that my sister was protecting me by cutting off my whatevership with BIL, but I believe you. Never occurred to me because my mental math went: If BIL is bad, and bad gets exiled, BIL can’t be bad. It blows my mind, right now, to understand that he is both bad and welcome at Christmas. I’m stunned. I suppose I don’t really need an explanation. Ew.
My Dad’s surgery was, I’ll just disclose it I guess, a pacemaker. You all might know this is a minor surgery but you all know a LOT of things that I don’t know. There had never been anything to worry about but I assumed otherwise. My sister helped with transportation or something, which is why she was in the know, but my parents are very private and they don’t tell us (grown kids) anything until after the fact. No one else knew. Sis told me flippantly about the surgery, and she was right to be unconcerned, but I assumed she was unconcerned due to hatred for the guy.
I remembered that elusive “fifth talking point” (yes, I hate myself. Don’t worry) in my letter to Sis, it spoke to unilateral decision-making. “Gossip” might not be the right word, but Sis sometimes decides to take charge of things and doesn’t factor in the wishes of the concerned parties. We lost our teenage nephew a couple years ago. His parents delegated the responsibility of informing the family to two specific people. Those people left me a couple voicemails saying I needed to call them. I was in the middle of a houseparty when I got the voicemails. What should have happened next is I call the people back, they tactfully (they have experience) make sure I’m somewhere where I can receive bad news, and carefully let me know this beloved kid died. But Sis had reasons for deciding, ya know what? I’mma just blurt it out on Shocks’ voicemail, even though it’s not my place and is explicitly against the wishes of the kid’s bereaved parents. And, that’s how I ended up scream-crying in the basement in utter confusion. Sis likes to be the one to make announcements, and yeah, I’d like to please have a boundary (or whatever it’s called) where if that happens again, I’m fucking done.
I realize I am still cataloging a bunch of imagined crimes. I see a lot of defense for my sister keeping me looped in, and for which I should be thankful, I’m hearing. I get that no one’s perfect.
No one’s asked but my parents, by the way, financially cut me off as a teenager, which is fine. I don’t feel entitled to money. But anyway, they are living in a fancy (IMHO) retirement facility with assisted care for when-needed. I had offered to stick around and help them, and I promise they don’t want anything from me. They don’t need rides. They don’t need money. My sister sees them regularly, as do many other family members. No one is forcing any labor of this sort on my sister, or leaving her to it.
But, yeah. She carries trauma and she has my empathy for that. My post (“dripping with contempt”? I think you’re just mistaking my shitty personality for contempt) captures some of that.
But you all have really heightened that sense of empathy in me. And, I know I’m emotionally arrested. I see it in every area of my life, and I’m doing work on it.
Thanks again, everyone who took the time to respond and, jeez, I’m impressed with your willingness to read all that.
Dumping all this is kinda cathartic and believe me, I could go on. Sis has told people lies on my behalf to try to hurt them. She told a different sister that I moved away to get away from her (other sister). Laundry list! Laundry list of grievances, I guess. I’m so sad about it. Mad. Sad. Wronged. Wrong. Low-contact is my speed with all these people, but Sis seems– always seemed– to want more than that. I won’t try to change or control her, I’ll stay in my lane, and THANK YOU for helping me find some words to navigate some of this with a bit more grace. I’m sorry for triggering some of you with my small mindedness. Big thanks, for real.
posted by shocks connery at 10:49 AM on May 18 [5 favorites]
Shocks, I'm glad you've been able to take at least some of the explanations given here on board. It can't have been easy for you to read this thread.
It's great that you've identified how much you've been silencing yourself. You have some work to do in stopping all the blame you're placing on your sister for this, and taking responsibility for using your own voice. I know how hard that is, it can be the work of a lifetime to truly step into your power and use your voice for yourself in kindness and gentleness to all. Please do this work. It's worth it.
I hope you keep working with your therapist on managing and understanding yourself, healing your own trauma, and then talk at length about your place and your sister's place in your family system (maybe consider talking to a family therapist at this stage??) before you reach out to your sister again. I say this because even after the intense experience of this thread, even after reading a lot of comments that are trying to explain one very particular central aspect of this situation to you, you're still not even slightly able to fathom it.
That central thing is the experience of *your sister* throughout these years. You still seem to have no willingness (or perhaps a better word is capacity?) to recognize what she's been through and who she has had to be in her life. If you were able to do the work to understand her place and perspective, I feel so confident that your hurt feelings would melt away and your barriers to feeling close to her would fall.
I'm highlighting this because in this second comment, throughout, that central thing is what you're missing. You're damning your sister for reaching out and telling you family news, blaming her for the feelings you felt when someone in the family died, and telling yourself she's self important, high handed, pushy, etc.... when in reality you seem to have been the one who was unreachable? You didn't call those two relatives back when you were supposed to. As the life long parentified older sister, you left her no choice but to take over the reins and blurt the news out in your voice mail.
Similarly, you seem to think you've done your duty by offering help to your parents and then shrugging and leaving when they say no thank you - and okay, maybe you have your reasons for that, maybe you hate your parents on some level or whatever. But what's staggering in your comment here is that you go further and defensively blame your sister for being the only one who visits them regularly? And you announce that nobody is forcing her to do that, when actually through your collective inaction, you and your siblings ARE forcing her to shoulder the entire burden on her own. As a parentified older sister all her life, she may not even know to complain about it or how to ask for your help and support. Indeed it's likely that she fears you will call her pushy and consider it a burden SHE is placing on you if she were to ask you all to visit your parents too and not just leave it all to her. And she would be right, wouldn't she? You are so so so set on spinning the worst possible stories in your mind about what her motives are even when she does the best, most understandable, most helpful things..
This situation is eerily similar to what happened in your childhood and hers. Nobody forced her to take care of all of you when your parents were being neglectful to you all. But she stepped up, because she WAS forced to, because there was nobody else who would take care of you. Same as now, there's nobody else but her who would visit your parents if she didn't do it. It's a shame you can't see that or appreciate that immense burden of kin keeping and inappropriate parenting that's been hers all her life.
I think once you have talked and talked and been heard by your therapist about your pain and how bottled up it's been since you were young, after you've let all of that out, you will have another long hard slog ahead of you where you learn empathy for your sister. I hope you'll do it. You deserve to be able to see her for who she is, and so does she.
posted by MiraK at 12:54 PM on May 18 [16 favorites]
It's great that you've identified how much you've been silencing yourself. You have some work to do in stopping all the blame you're placing on your sister for this, and taking responsibility for using your own voice. I know how hard that is, it can be the work of a lifetime to truly step into your power and use your voice for yourself in kindness and gentleness to all. Please do this work. It's worth it.
I hope you keep working with your therapist on managing and understanding yourself, healing your own trauma, and then talk at length about your place and your sister's place in your family system (maybe consider talking to a family therapist at this stage??) before you reach out to your sister again. I say this because even after the intense experience of this thread, even after reading a lot of comments that are trying to explain one very particular central aspect of this situation to you, you're still not even slightly able to fathom it.
That central thing is the experience of *your sister* throughout these years. You still seem to have no willingness (or perhaps a better word is capacity?) to recognize what she's been through and who she has had to be in her life. If you were able to do the work to understand her place and perspective, I feel so confident that your hurt feelings would melt away and your barriers to feeling close to her would fall.
I'm highlighting this because in this second comment, throughout, that central thing is what you're missing. You're damning your sister for reaching out and telling you family news, blaming her for the feelings you felt when someone in the family died, and telling yourself she's self important, high handed, pushy, etc.... when in reality you seem to have been the one who was unreachable? You didn't call those two relatives back when you were supposed to. As the life long parentified older sister, you left her no choice but to take over the reins and blurt the news out in your voice mail.
Similarly, you seem to think you've done your duty by offering help to your parents and then shrugging and leaving when they say no thank you - and okay, maybe you have your reasons for that, maybe you hate your parents on some level or whatever. But what's staggering in your comment here is that you go further and defensively blame your sister for being the only one who visits them regularly? And you announce that nobody is forcing her to do that, when actually through your collective inaction, you and your siblings ARE forcing her to shoulder the entire burden on her own. As a parentified older sister all her life, she may not even know to complain about it or how to ask for your help and support. Indeed it's likely that she fears you will call her pushy and consider it a burden SHE is placing on you if she were to ask you all to visit your parents too and not just leave it all to her. And she would be right, wouldn't she? You are so so so set on spinning the worst possible stories in your mind about what her motives are even when she does the best, most understandable, most helpful things..
This situation is eerily similar to what happened in your childhood and hers. Nobody forced her to take care of all of you when your parents were being neglectful to you all. But she stepped up, because she WAS forced to, because there was nobody else who would take care of you. Same as now, there's nobody else but her who would visit your parents if she didn't do it. It's a shame you can't see that or appreciate that immense burden of kin keeping and inappropriate parenting that's been hers all her life.
I think once you have talked and talked and been heard by your therapist about your pain and how bottled up it's been since you were young, after you've let all of that out, you will have another long hard slog ahead of you where you learn empathy for your sister. I hope you'll do it. You deserve to be able to see her for who she is, and so does she.
posted by MiraK at 12:54 PM on May 18 [16 favorites]
This is somewhat out of the left field, but: do you have any interest in drawing/painting/collage etc?
I recently attended a workshop which focused on getting us to express ourselves without words, culminating in a drawing or collage based on a prompt. I found the process very helpful and was able to do some introspection in the course of drawing. (I guess that's the whole point of art therapy, which this workshop was based on.)
Since you mentioned that verbal is difficult in your family, including between you and your sister, I wonder whether you could create something to express what you'd hope to say by way of apology. Sending the result to her, with a one-line explanation of what it represents, might help the two of you reconnect. (Or she might be baffled - but hey, that beats upset.)
posted by demi-octopus at 12:55 PM on May 18
I recently attended a workshop which focused on getting us to express ourselves without words, culminating in a drawing or collage based on a prompt. I found the process very helpful and was able to do some introspection in the course of drawing. (I guess that's the whole point of art therapy, which this workshop was based on.)
Since you mentioned that verbal is difficult in your family, including between you and your sister, I wonder whether you could create something to express what you'd hope to say by way of apology. Sending the result to her, with a one-line explanation of what it represents, might help the two of you reconnect. (Or she might be baffled - but hey, that beats upset.)
posted by demi-octopus at 12:55 PM on May 18
Hey, I want to say this not as a pile-on, but as a general comment about a pattern that I've seen people play out a lot over the years:
“Take action,” is what my therapist said, many times, that stuck because I’m so inclined to just keep my mouth shut and be miserable when it comes to family stuff.
Taking action and speaking up is important. But how you do it also matters. It can be done gently, with understanding and expectation of fallibility from the other side. It's easy for friends and sometimes therapists (and internet commenters) to provide very you-centric, very absolutist takes about what a situation is and how you should deal with the other people involved. It's easy for them because however insightful they are, they only know one fragment of the story, and you're the protagonist of the part they know. I think in real life it's often (not always) a good idea to take the you-centric takes and look outside them, take the calls for absolutist action and think about what softer, more gentle, or even more casual approaches could look like, and start from there first. It's almost always more doable to add absoluteness or severity later, if the softer approaches don't work, than it is to take them back after they're out there.
posted by trig at 2:15 PM on May 18 [12 favorites]
“Take action,” is what my therapist said, many times, that stuck because I’m so inclined to just keep my mouth shut and be miserable when it comes to family stuff.
Taking action and speaking up is important. But how you do it also matters. It can be done gently, with understanding and expectation of fallibility from the other side. It's easy for friends and sometimes therapists (and internet commenters) to provide very you-centric, very absolutist takes about what a situation is and how you should deal with the other people involved. It's easy for them because however insightful they are, they only know one fragment of the story, and you're the protagonist of the part they know. I think in real life it's often (not always) a good idea to take the you-centric takes and look outside them, take the calls for absolutist action and think about what softer, more gentle, or even more casual approaches could look like, and start from there first. It's almost always more doable to add absoluteness or severity later, if the softer approaches don't work, than it is to take them back after they're out there.
posted by trig at 2:15 PM on May 18 [12 favorites]
It's easy for friends and sometimes therapists (and internet commenters) to provide very you-centric, very absolutist takes about what a situation is and how you should deal with the other people involved.
Yep, this is a Mefi phenomenon, too, where people will confidently provide you with scripts thinking that they can somehow preempt a person's underlying reaction to [whatever uncomfortable/painful thing you're trying to communicate], and...they can't. They can soften the blow; they can maybe help avoid misunderstandings about the nature of whatever; they can allow the person a chance to save face while in the moment of having something awkward or painful said to them; they may help keep the temperature down so that someone doesn't blurt out something awful they wouldn't mean if given a chance to think. But people aren't stupid and there's no "sudo" for them. If they're going to be hurt, they're going to be hurt.
As you have now been able to see for yourself. Something for you to think about, I think.
I tend to wonder if you might not benefit from a different therapist, because for whatever reason, the one you have doesn't seem to be helping you achieve a lot of insight.
posted by praemunire at 2:47 PM on May 18 [6 favorites]
Yep, this is a Mefi phenomenon, too, where people will confidently provide you with scripts thinking that they can somehow preempt a person's underlying reaction to [whatever uncomfortable/painful thing you're trying to communicate], and...they can't. They can soften the blow; they can maybe help avoid misunderstandings about the nature of whatever; they can allow the person a chance to save face while in the moment of having something awkward or painful said to them; they may help keep the temperature down so that someone doesn't blurt out something awful they wouldn't mean if given a chance to think. But people aren't stupid and there's no "sudo" for them. If they're going to be hurt, they're going to be hurt.
As you have now been able to see for yourself. Something for you to think about, I think.
I tend to wonder if you might not benefit from a different therapist, because for whatever reason, the one you have doesn't seem to be helping you achieve a lot of insight.
posted by praemunire at 2:47 PM on May 18 [6 favorites]
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posted by shadygrove at 8:55 AM on May 17 [3 favorites]