How do I sue my HOA?
March 14, 2024 5:43 PM Subscribe
And what is, I’m sure, a historic first, I am unhappy with my HOA. My specific frustration is selective enforcement and a new propensity to send nastygrams for things that aren’t even violations (eg dogs looking out a window).
I am hoping to hire a lawyer to sue the HOA and the specific board members personally, so I can stop thinking about this, but I don’t know how to find an appropriate lawyer. The property in question is in King County Washington. I greatly appreciate either general advice on identifying an appropriate firm, or location specific advice.
I am hoping to hire a lawyer to sue the HOA and the specific board members personally, so I can stop thinking about this, but I don’t know how to find an appropriate lawyer. The property in question is in King County Washington. I greatly appreciate either general advice on identifying an appropriate firm, or location specific advice.
Hi! I'm on my HOA's board, and we have spent the last five years battling an insane resident's frivolous lawsuit. The judge finally found in our favor, with damages substantial enough that the plaintiff has put up their house for sale. Keep in mind that if you sue your HOA and lose, you'll be on the hook for their legal fees as well as yours, and they probably have more expensive lawyers than you will.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 5:54 PM on March 14 [7 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 5:54 PM on March 14 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: @buddhainabucket: can you provide more info about why a resident would have to repay the HOA’s legal fees, assuming the case is not deemed to be frivolous?
posted by whisk(e)y neat at 6:00 PM on March 14
posted by whisk(e)y neat at 6:00 PM on March 14
I'm not sure why but that's the law for a civil suit in CA. I don't know that it matters whether or not it was frivolous, as that's obviously subjective (though in our case it was blatant). I would just check that before I tried anything.
What other actions have you taken to resolve this problem? Have you gone to the meetings and raised your concerns? Are you certain that other people aren't receiving violations? We cite people all the time, and they never fix the thing, and we end up looking like assholes, but it's not like we can personally fix the thing they've done wrong, you know? That might look like selective enforcement to someone not aware of the details.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 6:05 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
What other actions have you taken to resolve this problem? Have you gone to the meetings and raised your concerns? Are you certain that other people aren't receiving violations? We cite people all the time, and they never fix the thing, and we end up looking like assholes, but it's not like we can personally fix the thing they've done wrong, you know? That might look like selective enforcement to someone not aware of the details.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 6:05 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
can you provide more info about why a resident would have to repay the HOA’s legal fees
I don't know about your specific jurisdiction, but it's definitely the case in California that contracts like those that govern HOAs frequently have what are called "fee-shifting" provisions. Read your CC&Rs and any HOA-related contracts closely before you embark on any litigation. A fee-shifting provision means the "prevailing party" of any litigation is entitled to their attorney's fees. There are specific criteria for what it means to prevail in a suit like that. An initial consultation with a lawyer would almost certainly involve them checking/asking about this.
posted by yasaman at 6:27 PM on March 14 [6 favorites]
I don't know about your specific jurisdiction, but it's definitely the case in California that contracts like those that govern HOAs frequently have what are called "fee-shifting" provisions. Read your CC&Rs and any HOA-related contracts closely before you embark on any litigation. A fee-shifting provision means the "prevailing party" of any litigation is entitled to their attorney's fees. There are specific criteria for what it means to prevail in a suit like that. An initial consultation with a lawyer would almost certainly involve them checking/asking about this.
posted by yasaman at 6:27 PM on March 14 [6 favorites]
Why not run for the board of the HOA and change things from the inside?
posted by brookeb at 6:50 PM on March 14 [12 favorites]
posted by brookeb at 6:50 PM on March 14 [12 favorites]
Moving is probably easier than litigation.
posted by TurkishGolds at 7:27 PM on March 14 [19 favorites]
posted by TurkishGolds at 7:27 PM on March 14 [19 favorites]
to sue the HOA
The HOA isn't some detached entity - you're suing your neighbors, none of whom are going to be happy at having to pay some mix of (1) legal fees, (2) damages, (3) increased insurance rates. It's likely that any legal action you take against the HOA will also result in your HOA fees increasing over time, which is super ironic.
and the specific board members personally
Read your condo association documents, which almost certainly say HOA members can't sue HOA board members for anything related to their service.
I am hoping to hire a lawyer ... so I can stop thinking about this, but I don’t know how to find an appropriate lawyer.
Since this is the crux of your question: It doesn't work like that. If you hire a lawyer, supporting them and engaging with them becomes your responsibility, especially on something as small as what you've called out in your first paragraph.
I'd also really encourage you to consider BuddhaInABucket's experiences, which are almost identical to mine from when I lived in a condo and served on the HOA board. Our association was small (9 units) and even then most owners had no idea how many issues the board was dealing with, how much chasing took place to try and get compliance, let alone monthly condo fees paid...
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:27 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
The HOA isn't some detached entity - you're suing your neighbors, none of whom are going to be happy at having to pay some mix of (1) legal fees, (2) damages, (3) increased insurance rates. It's likely that any legal action you take against the HOA will also result in your HOA fees increasing over time, which is super ironic.
and the specific board members personally
Read your condo association documents, which almost certainly say HOA members can't sue HOA board members for anything related to their service.
I am hoping to hire a lawyer ... so I can stop thinking about this, but I don’t know how to find an appropriate lawyer.
Since this is the crux of your question: It doesn't work like that. If you hire a lawyer, supporting them and engaging with them becomes your responsibility, especially on something as small as what you've called out in your first paragraph.
I'd also really encourage you to consider BuddhaInABucket's experiences, which are almost identical to mine from when I lived in a condo and served on the HOA board. Our association was small (9 units) and even then most owners had no idea how many issues the board was dealing with, how much chasing took place to try and get compliance, let alone monthly condo fees paid...
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:27 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Unfortunately, we have validated the selective enforcement claim holds at least some water.
This is effectively a proxy war, where a single unpleasant and bigoted neighbor has friends on the board, and is using it as a harassment tool to get us to move. It is extremely hard to come up with any other interpretation of the boards actions.
It’s this reason that we want to talk with a lawyer to see if their actions create personal liability.
And moving is likely, but I’m willing to spend some time and money to show that we’re done with the appeasement approach in the interim.
Neighbors who are upset about the costs should be upset that the board is harassing us on their behalf.
posted by whisk(e)y neat at 8:36 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
This is effectively a proxy war, where a single unpleasant and bigoted neighbor has friends on the board, and is using it as a harassment tool to get us to move. It is extremely hard to come up with any other interpretation of the boards actions.
It’s this reason that we want to talk with a lawyer to see if their actions create personal liability.
And moving is likely, but I’m willing to spend some time and money to show that we’re done with the appeasement approach in the interim.
Neighbors who are upset about the costs should be upset that the board is harassing us on their behalf.
posted by whisk(e)y neat at 8:36 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
I would suggest you get an initial consultation with a real estate lawyer. They can tell you if you have a winnable case. My suspicion is that they will tell you this is more trouble than it’s worth to pursue. You can pay a lawyer, but the board can pay a lawyer with HOA money. It is hard to sue an HOA and win. And what exactly are you looking for? A cease and desist? Monetary damages? You may have evidence of selective enforcement, but that doesn’t mean you will win a court case in and of itself. This may end up being one of those “life ain’t fair” moments. Get good advice and follow it. You stand to potentially lose a ton of you don’t win the case.
posted by azpenguin at 9:08 PM on March 14 [2 favorites]
posted by azpenguin at 9:08 PM on March 14 [2 favorites]
I’ll be honest with you: organizing the neighbors and replacing the board would probably be less work than a lawsuit. If you don’t have the stomach for that, I promise you don’t want to deal with the lawsuit, either.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 9:09 PM on March 14 [24 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 9:09 PM on March 14 [24 favorites]
(And I say that while serving a community of 116 units that has never met quorum a single time in six years)
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 9:10 PM on March 14 [2 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 9:10 PM on March 14 [2 favorites]
Your HOA is a dick. You want retribution. IANAL To sue, you need to show damages, and them being dicks is probably not going to be effective at generating a cause to sue.
Work with neighbors; document dickishness, small-minded, petty BS. Pictures of letters, notes of Chris Q Jerk and Terry A Goofus phone calls with idiotic complaints. Make a nice blog with an anonymous domain owner. Get somebody unrecognizable to post small signs with the blog address. Or run for HOA Board, or find another way to address this. It's maddening, stupid and wrong, but the law sucks at addressing people being horrible jerks.
posted by theora55 at 9:39 PM on March 14 [4 favorites]
Work with neighbors; document dickishness, small-minded, petty BS. Pictures of letters, notes of Chris Q Jerk and Terry A Goofus phone calls with idiotic complaints. Make a nice blog with an anonymous domain owner. Get somebody unrecognizable to post small signs with the blog address. Or run for HOA Board, or find another way to address this. It's maddening, stupid and wrong, but the law sucks at addressing people being horrible jerks.
posted by theora55 at 9:39 PM on March 14 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Regarding what we want: the harassment to stop; to be regulated similarly to other folks.
Nice to have: details of their actions being aired out in public, personal financial penalties for the harassers.
I don’t want or expect money for myself.
posted by whisk(e)y neat at 10:28 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
Nice to have: details of their actions being aired out in public, personal financial penalties for the harassers.
I don’t want or expect money for myself.
posted by whisk(e)y neat at 10:28 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
Just. Forking. Move. Any lawsuit won’t make it something you have to think about less, you think you’re off loading the problem to lawyers, you are just making a bigger problem.
Have done insurance for many HOAs and COAs and attended very many meetings of their boards, mostly boring, but have seen situations go toxic before and honestly, it’s usually NOT clear if it’s a few asshole residents or an asshole board. What is always clear is that these people are failing at just being good adaptive cooperative neighbors. And it is usually because of very minor shit people have fixated on, or money. To be clear, money that absolutely needs to be spent but some fight about.
I have experience with HOAs that have been acrimonious and litigious for years, and it’s always puzzled me why the fork people just don’t leave and move somewhere happy. I love to be right, I’m always right, but can’t imagine spending money and years trying to demonstrate that to the idiots.
But people do. Suggest don’t go there. I’m sure you’re right, but it sounds like you have means, GTFO of there.
posted by ixipkcams at 11:13 PM on March 14 [7 favorites]
Have done insurance for many HOAs and COAs and attended very many meetings of their boards, mostly boring, but have seen situations go toxic before and honestly, it’s usually NOT clear if it’s a few asshole residents or an asshole board. What is always clear is that these people are failing at just being good adaptive cooperative neighbors. And it is usually because of very minor shit people have fixated on, or money. To be clear, money that absolutely needs to be spent but some fight about.
I have experience with HOAs that have been acrimonious and litigious for years, and it’s always puzzled me why the fork people just don’t leave and move somewhere happy. I love to be right, I’m always right, but can’t imagine spending money and years trying to demonstrate that to the idiots.
But people do. Suggest don’t go there. I’m sure you’re right, but it sounds like you have means, GTFO of there.
posted by ixipkcams at 11:13 PM on March 14 [7 favorites]
I mean, what is best outcome, you litigate and win and drive up everyone’s fees, cause you’re gonna have to pay for the board’s defense, and so will you neighbors, if not in direct costs, then from much higher insurance rates in the future cause of what you want to do…cause of the HOA’s insurance paying to defend the board in the lawsuit.
And after you win, do you think it will become a better community? Or will it just be one filled with the same number of assholes as before but now just filled with a thirst for revenge?
Just find a community where everyone gets along, they exist, most HOAs are comprised of cooperative adults, you hear about the ones that aren’t, and you’ve brought up another. But I’m telling you, mile down the road, pretty similar house, no headaches.
posted by ixipkcams at 11:45 PM on March 14
And after you win, do you think it will become a better community? Or will it just be one filled with the same number of assholes as before but now just filled with a thirst for revenge?
Just find a community where everyone gets along, they exist, most HOAs are comprised of cooperative adults, you hear about the ones that aren’t, and you’ve brought up another. But I’m telling you, mile down the road, pretty similar house, no headaches.
posted by ixipkcams at 11:45 PM on March 14
Make some friends of sympathetic neighbors who will vote for you and run for a position on the board. This will honestly be easier than starting a lawsuit.
posted by Elsie at 6:28 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
posted by Elsie at 6:28 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
@buddhainabucket: can you provide more info about why a resident would have to repay the HOA’s legal fees, assuming the case is not deemed to be frivolous?
In most jurisdictions, the losing party of any litigation has to pay a portion of the other side's reasonable legal fees. Where I am, that portion is usually about 60%.
posted by hepta at 6:40 AM on March 15
In most jurisdictions, the losing party of any litigation has to pay a portion of the other side's reasonable legal fees. Where I am, that portion is usually about 60%.
posted by hepta at 6:40 AM on March 15
In most jurisdictions, the losing party of any litigation has to pay a portion of the other side's reasonable legal fees. Where I am, that portion is usually about 60%.
This is not true in the United State. In the US, the winning and losing parties each pay only their own fees unless there is a special statute or contract provision that applies. The relevant rule is called the "American Rule" because, outside of the US, fee-shifting is more typical, but in the US, fee-shifting is the exception.
As to why you might wind up paying the HOA's fees in this situation: (a) all the owners have to fund the HOA's expenses, including legal expenses, so you will have to pay a share of the cost to defend against your own lawsuit; (b) if a lawsuit is super frivolous, sometimes a judge can order the loser to pay the winner's fees; (c) although fee-shifting is not typical, cost shifting is more common, which would include things like court costs but not attorneys' fees.
I agree with everyone saying this is a bad idea. Litigation costs more and takes longer than inexperienced people ever imagine. People are shocked by the fees, time, and hassle. People think they are going to go to court and tell the judge their story, when, in fact, they will spend 12 to 18 months on preliminary and procedural issues that have nothing to do with the story they want to tell. It would be a much better idea to work on this problem through non-legal means, or, if you are determined to use legal means, have a lawyer write a letter or two and see if that changes things, though it may just escalate things and make it worse.
posted by Mid at 7:07 AM on March 15 [4 favorites]
This is not true in the United State. In the US, the winning and losing parties each pay only their own fees unless there is a special statute or contract provision that applies. The relevant rule is called the "American Rule" because, outside of the US, fee-shifting is more typical, but in the US, fee-shifting is the exception.
As to why you might wind up paying the HOA's fees in this situation: (a) all the owners have to fund the HOA's expenses, including legal expenses, so you will have to pay a share of the cost to defend against your own lawsuit; (b) if a lawsuit is super frivolous, sometimes a judge can order the loser to pay the winner's fees; (c) although fee-shifting is not typical, cost shifting is more common, which would include things like court costs but not attorneys' fees.
I agree with everyone saying this is a bad idea. Litigation costs more and takes longer than inexperienced people ever imagine. People are shocked by the fees, time, and hassle. People think they are going to go to court and tell the judge their story, when, in fact, they will spend 12 to 18 months on preliminary and procedural issues that have nothing to do with the story they want to tell. It would be a much better idea to work on this problem through non-legal means, or, if you are determined to use legal means, have a lawyer write a letter or two and see if that changes things, though it may just escalate things and make it worse.
posted by Mid at 7:07 AM on March 15 [4 favorites]
What lawyer or firm you need depends on what flavor of harassment you're dealing with. If you are being harassed because of your membership in a protected class (e.g, race, age, gender, sex (including sexual orientation or gender identity), ethnicity, religion), you will probably want a lawyer experienced in civil rights and the Fair Housing Act, not just property or HOA disputes generally. This flyer from King County government has some advice and contact information for some agencies that handle these cases. They can likely help or point you in the right direction.
If there isn't a fair housing law violation, you'll want a Washington State lawyer who regularly litigates HOA disputes. In addition to asking a real estate agent, which I think is a good suggestion, one way to find lawyers is to research relevant cases that have been decided (Google isn't great for legal research but probably enough to get you started) and looking up who the lawyers are. Even if you find one that isn't particularly local to you, lawyers often have professional networks where they can refer cases to someone in the next city over (or in another state) if they can't take your case.
posted by alligatorpear at 7:33 AM on March 15 [5 favorites]
If there isn't a fair housing law violation, you'll want a Washington State lawyer who regularly litigates HOA disputes. In addition to asking a real estate agent, which I think is a good suggestion, one way to find lawyers is to research relevant cases that have been decided (Google isn't great for legal research but probably enough to get you started) and looking up who the lawyers are. Even if you find one that isn't particularly local to you, lawyers often have professional networks where they can refer cases to someone in the next city over (or in another state) if they can't take your case.
posted by alligatorpear at 7:33 AM on March 15 [5 favorites]
I'm going to go against the grain here and say it's worth at least talking to a lawyer or other professional to understand your options. A lawsuit probably isn't the best option, but there are steps to take before that.
However, I do agree with a lot of the "it's not worth it" advice here for these reasons. My experience is in a different state with different HOA laws, though. Definitely look into your state's laws and your governing documents.
Nice to have: details of their actions being aired out in public, personal financial penalties for the harassers.
The first part of this may be possible. There may be certain information that you as an HOA member have a right to, even without a lawsuit. Check the law and your governing documents. Other information may only be available if you sue.
I'm skeptical that the harassers will see any personal financial penalties. In some states, there are laws saying HOA board members are not personally liable for their actions - as I understand it, there is some line past which they could be, but their actions have to be unethical, egregious, and deliberate (IANAL).
It's also very common in governing documents to limit the personal liability of board members, and to require the HOA to carry liability insurance for the board members, so even if they were found guilty, the insurance will pay. Some states do also make the loser pay the legal fees of the other party (specifically for HOA matters, not in general). So look into that, and decide if you are willing to take that risk.
If there is a lawsuit going on, or the HOA is found guilty and has to pay you, it could also make it harder to sell your house, depending on the HOA's finances. As mentioned upthread, the HOA is not a separate entity, but a group of you and all your neighbors.
But talking to a lawyer can help you understand all of this and see if there are other options. I would recommend learning everything you can about HOA law in your state and your governing documents before your consultation, so you don't waste precious ($$$$) lawyer money learning the basics.
As to how to find one, there are a few options. Ask for a recommendation from your realtor, they probably know some real estate and possibly HOA lawyers, or know someone who does. Look for HOA resources in your state, or lawyers that advertise their services to the HOAs. If you know anyone in an HOA management company (not yours, obviously), they may have some recommendations as well. A lot of lawyers will talk to you for 15-30 minutes for free and either explain basic options, tell you you have no chance, or recommend you to someone they may know who could help you better.
On preview: I'm very much an amateur, but I've spent a lot of time reading HOA laws and docs, so if you want to shoot over your governing docs, I can take a look through them and see if anything that could help you stands out.
posted by sillysally at 8:16 AM on March 15 [5 favorites]
However, I do agree with a lot of the "it's not worth it" advice here for these reasons. My experience is in a different state with different HOA laws, though. Definitely look into your state's laws and your governing documents.
Nice to have: details of their actions being aired out in public, personal financial penalties for the harassers.
The first part of this may be possible. There may be certain information that you as an HOA member have a right to, even without a lawsuit. Check the law and your governing documents. Other information may only be available if you sue.
I'm skeptical that the harassers will see any personal financial penalties. In some states, there are laws saying HOA board members are not personally liable for their actions - as I understand it, there is some line past which they could be, but their actions have to be unethical, egregious, and deliberate (IANAL).
It's also very common in governing documents to limit the personal liability of board members, and to require the HOA to carry liability insurance for the board members, so even if they were found guilty, the insurance will pay. Some states do also make the loser pay the legal fees of the other party (specifically for HOA matters, not in general). So look into that, and decide if you are willing to take that risk.
If there is a lawsuit going on, or the HOA is found guilty and has to pay you, it could also make it harder to sell your house, depending on the HOA's finances. As mentioned upthread, the HOA is not a separate entity, but a group of you and all your neighbors.
But talking to a lawyer can help you understand all of this and see if there are other options. I would recommend learning everything you can about HOA law in your state and your governing documents before your consultation, so you don't waste precious ($$$$) lawyer money learning the basics.
As to how to find one, there are a few options. Ask for a recommendation from your realtor, they probably know some real estate and possibly HOA lawyers, or know someone who does. Look for HOA resources in your state, or lawyers that advertise their services to the HOAs. If you know anyone in an HOA management company (not yours, obviously), they may have some recommendations as well. A lot of lawyers will talk to you for 15-30 minutes for free and either explain basic options, tell you you have no chance, or recommend you to someone they may know who could help you better.
On preview: I'm very much an amateur, but I've spent a lot of time reading HOA laws and docs, so if you want to shoot over your governing docs, I can take a look through them and see if anything that could help you stands out.
posted by sillysally at 8:16 AM on March 15 [5 favorites]
Thanks for the update. details of their actions being aired out in public, Start a facebook page for your neighborhood. It's useful anyway, for people sharing rides, help, weather, but can also be an effective clearinghouse. Moderate it carefully.
posted by theora55 at 10:03 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 10:03 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
You mention "bigoted neighbor" as the person behind the harassment/unfair treatment you are receiving from the board. Are you a member of a protected class - race, religion, veteran status, etc? You might want to talk to your lawyer about whether or not the actions the HOA board is taking are violating any fair housing laws in the state.
posted by brookeb at 11:05 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
posted by brookeb at 11:05 AM on March 15 [1 favorite]
I believe most state bar associations offer a referral service for a free or modestly priced initial consultation. This would allow you to get some advice re what is possible and would give you a sense of the lawyer before committing.
posted by latkes at 10:33 AM on March 17
posted by latkes at 10:33 AM on March 17
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As somebody who has hired lawyers for various reasons in the past, my personal experience has been that "stop thinking about it" is absolutely the last thing that will happen, and if that's your reason to hire a lawyer I'd urge you to consider alternate actions first. But YMMV.
posted by Shepherd at 5:49 PM on March 14 [17 favorites]