"Unexpected item in the bagging area!"
February 7, 2024 5:47 PM Subscribe
Why do customers have so much trouble using the Self-Checkout? Often, while standing in line behind them, I see people freeze up for what seems like minutes. If it's a language problem, I give you a pass; also if it's your first time (but there can't be that many self-checkout newbies now, can there?)
I guess in some cases it's because they can't 'tare' their reusable shopping bag, but what do I know (except that I love the self-checkout, as it avoids the cashiers' attempts at small talk, commenting on my purchases).
Our previous opportunity to vent about these systems was over five years ago, pre-Covid: How Rude is Using Self-Checkout Machines Twice?
I guess in some cases it's because they can't 'tare' their reusable shopping bag, but what do I know (except that I love the self-checkout, as it avoids the cashiers' attempts at small talk, commenting on my purchases).
Our previous opportunity to vent about these systems was over five years ago, pre-Covid: How Rude is Using Self-Checkout Machines Twice?
Response by poster: Spell it out for me, please - what are those diverse needs that haven't been accounted for?
posted by Rash at 5:54 PM on February 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Rash at 5:54 PM on February 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
Rash: what do I know (except that I love the self-checkout, as it avoids the cashiers' attempts at small talk, commenting on my purchases).
Oh gosh, me too! And yet. The reason you see me frozen, waiting for 3-5 minutes at the self check-out is not because I don't know what to do. It's because the issue can only be resolved by an employee and the employee is helping someone else for 3-5 minutes.
For extra credit, the issue is indeed usually that the scale didn't correctly tare my reusable bag. The rest of the time it's because I'm buying beer or wine and the system won't move forward until an employee verifies my age. I try to use the regular check-out counter if I'm buying alcohol but sometimes I forget.
posted by capricorn at 5:57 PM on February 7, 2024 [43 favorites]
Oh gosh, me too! And yet. The reason you see me frozen, waiting for 3-5 minutes at the self check-out is not because I don't know what to do. It's because the issue can only be resolved by an employee and the employee is helping someone else for 3-5 minutes.
For extra credit, the issue is indeed usually that the scale didn't correctly tare my reusable bag. The rest of the time it's because I'm buying beer or wine and the system won't move forward until an employee verifies my age. I try to use the regular check-out counter if I'm buying alcohol but sometimes I forget.
posted by capricorn at 5:57 PM on February 7, 2024 [43 favorites]
The user experience on these has gotten a lot better over the past several years, from 'abysmal waste of time to be avoided at all costs' to 'generally shitty but sometimes better than waiting in line for 20 minutes while a sick kid coughs on you'.
Which is to say: give people some credit. When problems are so ubiquitous, it's not because of shoppers who are dumb, it's the machine designers. Congratulations on being good at them. I guess you never buy produce? Or pay in cash, or use coupons? Or have items that won't scan and you can't enter a sku? Or have the machine scan it twice when you don't hit the laser just right?
I consider you lucky if the person ahead of you is the worst part of your self checkout experience.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:58 PM on February 7, 2024 [46 favorites]
Which is to say: give people some credit. When problems are so ubiquitous, it's not because of shoppers who are dumb, it's the machine designers. Congratulations on being good at them. I guess you never buy produce? Or pay in cash, or use coupons? Or have items that won't scan and you can't enter a sku? Or have the machine scan it twice when you don't hit the laser just right?
I consider you lucky if the person ahead of you is the worst part of your self checkout experience.
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:58 PM on February 7, 2024 [46 favorites]
I always wonder if there's a divide between people who have scanned barcodes for a job at some point, and people who never did. (And also, possibly, between people who ever paid any attention at all to what the cashier was doing, and people who never did.)
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 6:03 PM on February 7, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 6:03 PM on February 7, 2024 [6 favorites]
Best answer: for me it’s usually one or many of:
the reusable bag weight thing
the alcohol age verification thing
the “bagging area thinks I didn’t actually put it in the bag and now the person has to help me” thing
the “i accidentally scanned it twice and it won’t let me cancel one and now the person has to help me” thing
the “i accidentally entered the wrong type or quantity of item and now the person has to help me” thing
the “I got more stuff than I expected and there isn’t enough room in the bagging area to hold all the shit I’m trying to buy so I tried to move a bag to make room and now it thinks I’m stealing something and now the person has to help me” thing
posted by crime online at 6:08 PM on February 7, 2024 [67 favorites]
the reusable bag weight thing
the alcohol age verification thing
the “bagging area thinks I didn’t actually put it in the bag and now the person has to help me” thing
the “i accidentally scanned it twice and it won’t let me cancel one and now the person has to help me” thing
the “i accidentally entered the wrong type or quantity of item and now the person has to help me” thing
the “I got more stuff than I expected and there isn’t enough room in the bagging area to hold all the shit I’m trying to buy so I tried to move a bag to make room and now it thinks I’m stealing something and now the person has to help me” thing
posted by crime online at 6:08 PM on February 7, 2024 [67 favorites]
A nearby grocery store has replaced their terrible old self-checkout with a mostly better one. Both of them have instructions that tell you to put your reusable shopping bag on the platform to begin; the terrible one would immediately freeze up if you did so. The better one will accept your reusable bag.
However, the better one sometimes doesn't register groceries. I never put my reusable bag on the platform; I bag after paying. I've learned that to make sure your groceries register on the platform you have to thump them down on the platform to get them to register as "bagged", but sometimes you'll buy something light enough that you can't thump it effectively. And here is the mystery setting:
The system will ask you if you bagged your cilantro or aspirin, and you'll push the "yes" button...and the system will go back to the main window but lock until a store clerk types a code. Why is this? As long as I've rung it in, why do I need to bag it?
Anyway, with the bad old system I'd developed enough hacks to get through my order most times without needing a clerk, but even though the new system is otherwise better, I simply can't beat the too-light grocery problem.
This is why I stand there - I have rung up my item and placed it, unconfined by a confusing reusable bag, on the bagging platform where it is supposed to go, but the system will not let me proceed.
posted by Frowner at 6:10 PM on February 7, 2024 [11 favorites]
However, the better one sometimes doesn't register groceries. I never put my reusable bag on the platform; I bag after paying. I've learned that to make sure your groceries register on the platform you have to thump them down on the platform to get them to register as "bagged", but sometimes you'll buy something light enough that you can't thump it effectively. And here is the mystery setting:
The system will ask you if you bagged your cilantro or aspirin, and you'll push the "yes" button...and the system will go back to the main window but lock until a store clerk types a code. Why is this? As long as I've rung it in, why do I need to bag it?
Anyway, with the bad old system I'd developed enough hacks to get through my order most times without needing a clerk, but even though the new system is otherwise better, I simply can't beat the too-light grocery problem.
This is why I stand there - I have rung up my item and placed it, unconfined by a confusing reusable bag, on the bagging platform where it is supposed to go, but the system will not let me proceed.
posted by Frowner at 6:10 PM on February 7, 2024 [11 favorites]
in addition to all the above i would add that a lot of people (a seemingly increasing amount in the post-pandemic New World) are staggeringly inconsiderate and completely immune to the shame of wasting other people's time.
that's an underlying reason why instead of just getting on with it, they are fiddling with their phone, herding errant children, chastising their dog, and catching up with a past acquaintance while we stand behind them, just wanting to scan our damn three items and gtfo of there.
posted by glonous keming at 6:14 PM on February 7, 2024 [7 favorites]
that's an underlying reason why instead of just getting on with it, they are fiddling with their phone, herding errant children, chastising their dog, and catching up with a past acquaintance while we stand behind them, just wanting to scan our damn three items and gtfo of there.
posted by glonous keming at 6:14 PM on February 7, 2024 [7 favorites]
also I am extremely still the self checkout newb because post-covid I go grocery shopping maybe like once a month max and buy a zillion items at once and still wait in line for the human checkouter because I don’t want to spend 30 extra minutes intermittently waiting for someone to come hit “Override” for me, I want to just tag team checkouter/I do the bagging and keep moving and GTFO of there. I hate the grocery store
posted by crime online at 6:15 PM on February 7, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by crime online at 6:15 PM on February 7, 2024 [10 favorites]
One of my local grocery stores self checkout has a very sensitive scale next to the door and the wind coming in through the door constantly throws it off. Like all the time. Every time I’ve used that one (which is rare, the staff is pretty good about putting an out of order sign on it) I’ve have to get someone to zero it out for me. So that’s why I’m standing there frozen, I’ve signaled the person and am waiting for them to have a minute.
Other fun moments are “what sort of potato did I pick out” at the produce screen, “wait shit this is fettuccine and I needed spaghetti” and my personal favorite “I can’t read my own handwritten code on this thing from the bulk bin”.
This is all stuff I wouldn’t have needed to deal with if I was using a traditional checkout, or I would have caught while putting my stuff on the conveyor.
Amazingly it is still significantly faster to use self checkout where I shop, despite the problem (me).
posted by lepus at 6:15 PM on February 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
Other fun moments are “what sort of potato did I pick out” at the produce screen, “wait shit this is fettuccine and I needed spaghetti” and my personal favorite “I can’t read my own handwritten code on this thing from the bulk bin”.
This is all stuff I wouldn’t have needed to deal with if I was using a traditional checkout, or I would have caught while putting my stuff on the conveyor.
Amazingly it is still significantly faster to use self checkout where I shop, despite the problem (me).
posted by lepus at 6:15 PM on February 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
Best answer: also if it's your first time (but there can't be that many self-checkout newbies now, can there?)
It may not be their first time at a self-checkout, but it could be their first time at that specific self-checkout interface and the button they need isn't where they expect it to be.
posted by doift at 6:20 PM on February 7, 2024 [13 favorites]
It may not be their first time at a self-checkout, but it could be their first time at that specific self-checkout interface and the button they need isn't where they expect it to be.
posted by doift at 6:20 PM on February 7, 2024 [13 favorites]
At the grocery store I go to, half the bagging areas are on the left, half are on the right. This really throws me off.
posted by avocet at 6:30 PM on February 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by avocet at 6:30 PM on February 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
At the grocery store I go to, half the bagging areas are on the left, half are on the right. This really throws me off.
Unexpected bagging area in the idem.
posted by grouse at 6:32 PM on February 7, 2024 [28 favorites]
Unexpected bagging area in the idem.
posted by grouse at 6:32 PM on February 7, 2024 [28 favorites]
Being a cashier is a lot tougher of a job that the vast majority of people think it is and even if someone uses a self-checkout once a week that’s a magnitude or ten less than a cashier.
posted by rhymedirective at 6:39 PM on February 7, 2024 [25 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 6:39 PM on February 7, 2024 [25 favorites]
My local supermarkets are comically terrible at listing bakery items as their "labelled on the shelf" name. If I am ever stuck at a self checkout, it is either because of this (is this a ciabatta roll or a bread roll or a specialty roll or a bap or a...), or a clearance price on the item has not scanned through as the correct (discounted) price and I have to get a customer service person to fix it.
posted by BeeJiddy at 6:39 PM on February 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by BeeJiddy at 6:39 PM on February 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
They're figuring out how to miscode their items so that they can pay less for them.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:45 PM on February 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:45 PM on February 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
I think part of it could be performance anxiety. Before self checkout, the slowness of the line could often be conveniently blamed on the checker or a price mixup. Now, if people do something to anger the self checkout machine, it seems (based on this question) there is a high likelihood that the shoppers backed up behind them will attribute the error to the user. Freezing up is a perfectly understandable response to the fear of people judging you for your use of technology in public. I am sure I have frozen up in this way before and I consider myself a very savvy user of technology (and indeed, also a UX designer so this stuff fascinates me).
posted by oxisos at 6:46 PM on February 7, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by oxisos at 6:46 PM on February 7, 2024 [10 favorites]
The reason you saw me frozen for 3-5 minutes is because I grabbed some windshield washer fluid since my car ran out, scanned it, and then just had to stand around like an idiot because apparently once you scan some windshield washer fluid in the self-check, everything locks up and you need to wait for store staff to provide them with proof of age. For windshield washer fluid.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 6:50 PM on February 7, 2024 [18 favorites]
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 6:50 PM on February 7, 2024 [18 favorites]
My most recent mishap was at Target when I pulled my credit card out too soon and the entire machine froze up. I tried hitting some buttons to get back to the payment option to no avail, and as I was doing that, an employee ran up and said "oh you have to select your payment option!" then tried hitting a few buttons, went, oh, and then proceeded to start taking the machine apart to do whatever the next level hard reset was while directing me up the next machine.
I will say that's my usual point of failure- getting the right sequence of hit pay now button/select payment type/insert card/remove card/ hit another button to confirm /whatever- especially since some machines let you just skip to inserting the card first and then you can hit the confirm button or you don't need to hit it at all and others you need to hit the button first and if you don't do that or if you pull the card too soon it'll make a terrible noise at you and you have to start over. So either you wait and follow the sequence exactly as the machine prompts you, which takes a while and might annoy people, or try to jump ahead and go fast and then you mess up and have to start over which might annoy people!
posted by damayanti at 7:03 PM on February 7, 2024 [10 favorites]
I will say that's my usual point of failure- getting the right sequence of hit pay now button/select payment type/insert card/remove card/ hit another button to confirm /whatever- especially since some machines let you just skip to inserting the card first and then you can hit the confirm button or you don't need to hit it at all and others you need to hit the button first and if you don't do that or if you pull the card too soon it'll make a terrible noise at you and you have to start over. So either you wait and follow the sequence exactly as the machine prompts you, which takes a while and might annoy people, or try to jump ahead and go fast and then you mess up and have to start over which might annoy people!
posted by damayanti at 7:03 PM on February 7, 2024 [10 favorites]
>> Spell it out for me, please - what are those diverse needs that haven't been accounted for?
Well I guess that if they had brains that took in and processed information in the same ways that yours does, and had the capability to respond in the same way, there might not be a problem.
But people don't see or process things the same way. The rate at which you can scan a screenful of information, glean from it what action must be taken and then locate the "button" on the screen which must be hit in order to accomplish that action, may be very different (faster) than the rate at which others do the same thing. To say nothing of the potential difference between your body of extensive experience interacting with digital interfaces, and theirs which might be a fraction.
Maybe they typically go to another grocery store whose checkout kiosk has even a slightly different UI, but for whatever reason had cause to come bother you at your store, and when they can't find the indicators or buttons in the location for which they've developed mental or muscle memory, they get confused, flustered, or frustrated. I know, right? -- getting frustrated over self-checkout? Who does that?
Some might have a problem with the physical scanning -- turning the device in the exact manner required by the orientation of the scanning lasers -- because of a skeletomuscular condition, nerve problems, recent acute injury, muscular atrophy due to age or medical condition. Or they just don't understand how barcode scanners work, so the act of manuvering the product into the exact correct orientation seems like a game of luck over which their intention has no influence. "So I just rotate it over the thing with the red light until I hear a beep... wait...you're telling me I need to look at where the barcode is and have that face towards the light?!? I HAD NO IDEA!!"
Or, a shopper might have been prescribed any one of the hundreds of common prescription medications taken daily by millions of humans, with side effects which cause cognitive or motor difficulties. As someone who takes such medications, as well as having arm coordination problems due to -- get this -- repetitive strain injury after spending too many decades interacting to quickly and casually with screens and keyboards to an unhealthy degree -- I can certainly understand what it's like for anyone to have difficulty whizzing through the self-checkout process at the speed that would satisfy the person behind them in line.
The TL;DR could have been.... we're all just humaning, man. We don't know what's going on in people's lives, what leads them to act in the ways they do. With fewer exceptions than we'd ever guess, everyone's just trying to do the best they can.
Further reading.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 7:05 PM on February 7, 2024 [43 favorites]
Well I guess that if they had brains that took in and processed information in the same ways that yours does, and had the capability to respond in the same way, there might not be a problem.
But people don't see or process things the same way. The rate at which you can scan a screenful of information, glean from it what action must be taken and then locate the "button" on the screen which must be hit in order to accomplish that action, may be very different (faster) than the rate at which others do the same thing. To say nothing of the potential difference between your body of extensive experience interacting with digital interfaces, and theirs which might be a fraction.
Maybe they typically go to another grocery store whose checkout kiosk has even a slightly different UI, but for whatever reason had cause to come bother you at your store, and when they can't find the indicators or buttons in the location for which they've developed mental or muscle memory, they get confused, flustered, or frustrated. I know, right? -- getting frustrated over self-checkout? Who does that?
Some might have a problem with the physical scanning -- turning the device in the exact manner required by the orientation of the scanning lasers -- because of a skeletomuscular condition, nerve problems, recent acute injury, muscular atrophy due to age or medical condition. Or they just don't understand how barcode scanners work, so the act of manuvering the product into the exact correct orientation seems like a game of luck over which their intention has no influence. "So I just rotate it over the thing with the red light until I hear a beep... wait...you're telling me I need to look at where the barcode is and have that face towards the light?!? I HAD NO IDEA!!"
Or, a shopper might have been prescribed any one of the hundreds of common prescription medications taken daily by millions of humans, with side effects which cause cognitive or motor difficulties. As someone who takes such medications, as well as having arm coordination problems due to -- get this -- repetitive strain injury after spending too many decades interacting to quickly and casually with screens and keyboards to an unhealthy degree -- I can certainly understand what it's like for anyone to have difficulty whizzing through the self-checkout process at the speed that would satisfy the person behind them in line.
The TL;DR could have been.... we're all just humaning, man. We don't know what's going on in people's lives, what leads them to act in the ways they do. With fewer exceptions than we'd ever guess, everyone's just trying to do the best they can.
Further reading.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 7:05 PM on February 7, 2024 [43 favorites]
I'm going to go with lack of forethought.
I'm in school 'scan then bag', but the number of people I see who have gotten through the scanning and are now confused somehow by 'wait, I have to leave now?' is quite, well, concerning.
Personally I like to bag my own stuff - because I know where it's going to go when I get home, and what is fragile, and can pack accordingly - and the automatic checkout doesn't need talking down from aggressively half filled bags of everything mixed together. (Even when you sort it all out on the belt.)
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 7:11 PM on February 7, 2024
I'm in school 'scan then bag', but the number of people I see who have gotten through the scanning and are now confused somehow by 'wait, I have to leave now?' is quite, well, concerning.
Personally I like to bag my own stuff - because I know where it's going to go when I get home, and what is fragile, and can pack accordingly - and the automatic checkout doesn't need talking down from aggressively half filled bags of everything mixed together. (Even when you sort it all out on the belt.)
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 7:11 PM on February 7, 2024
In my case it's because I'm waiting for the age verification, or, once, because I completely misunderstood a sale and thought the sale item had scanned incorrectly because my total was an order of magnitude more than I'd expected it to be. I pressed the button for assistance, and while I was waiting I figured out the misinterpretation and made my peace with not getting a great deal after all, but there wasn't a "just kidding, I don't need help anymore, I'm just an idiot who misunderstood your sign" button so I just had to stand there waiting until they came and cleared the "customer needs help" status.
posted by potrzebie at 7:14 PM on February 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 7:14 PM on February 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: They're figuring out how to miscode their items so that they can pay less for them.
No, that process begins earlier, in the produce section, memorizing the code for bananas or potatoes.
posted by Rash at 7:18 PM on February 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
No, that process begins earlier, in the produce section, memorizing the code for bananas or potatoes.
posted by Rash at 7:18 PM on February 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
I got caught by this the other evening. I used an in-store coupon; call the attendant. I had an item that would not scan; call the attendant who explains what portion of the numbers to type in next time, nah, fix your system. I scanned a buy this, get that free group in the wrong order. (If a checker did this, the system would be more patient). Sometimes, I'm looking at my list, or remembering the old phone number I use to get specials. I try to be conscious of whether anyone is waiting.
One local store makes the signal blink for the attendant if you buy alcohol, but lets you keep scanning, the other halts the process.
posted by theora55 at 7:24 PM on February 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
One local store makes the signal blink for the attendant if you buy alcohol, but lets you keep scanning, the other halts the process.
posted by theora55 at 7:24 PM on February 7, 2024 [2 favorites]
There was a slight update to the software and one of the buttons moved and they don’t have the cognitive resources available to just roll with it, because they’re just trying to juggle a lot of other shit.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:26 PM on February 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:26 PM on February 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
I get frustrated, too, but when there are that many problems, the problem isn't the user, it's the system. Self-checkouts are very "fragile" and there are a million ways the process can break down, most of them not the user's "fault" in the sense that they reasonably could have been expected to anticipate the issue and avoid it. As others have said, inability to handle a reusable bag is a big one. I literally just left a supermarket where the machines screw that up so often that I don't bag things until after I've paid.
posted by praemunire at 7:31 PM on February 7, 2024 [13 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 7:31 PM on February 7, 2024 [13 favorites]
The self-checkout machines at the grocery store near me have the volume settings set to beyond loud, and for some reason I move a lot more slowly and methodically when PLEASE PLACE ITEM IN THE BAG is blasted at me with each swipe. I bet some people are like me, but more so, and they just freeze up between checking the screen that it scanned correctly, PLEASE PLACE ITEM IN THE BAG, and actually moving the item over.
posted by stowaway at 7:53 PM on February 7, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by stowaway at 7:53 PM on February 7, 2024 [4 favorites]
a) because it keeps saying "unexpected item in the bagging area" because I put a reusable bag there;
b) because I am buying disposable cutlery (plastic cutlery or bamboo cutlery) and because this includes a plastic knife or a bamboo knife, a staff member has to come and verify that I am over 16, despite the fact that plastic knives or bamboo knives are less useful for deliberately injuring someone than a PLASTIC BIRO WITH A METAL NIB/PLASTIC PEN WITH A METAL NIB
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:09 PM on February 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
b) because I am buying disposable cutlery (plastic cutlery or bamboo cutlery) and because this includes a plastic knife or a bamboo knife, a staff member has to come and verify that I am over 16, despite the fact that plastic knives or bamboo knives are less useful for deliberately injuring someone than a PLASTIC BIRO WITH A METAL NIB/PLASTIC PEN WITH A METAL NIB
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:09 PM on February 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
I encourage you to take a step back and see that the blame rests more with systems rather than people.
Firstly, self-checkout machines are not like cashier checkout machines. They are (a) much slower, and (b) have all sorts of anti-theft hurdles ("unexpected item in the bagging area!") They frequently, for no apparent reason, require an attendant to come in and manually override.
Secondly, self-checkout has morphed from being a small minority of checkout stations to the main form of checkout, often the majority of checkout stations in my local supermarkets. This means that whereas previously for shoppers using self-checkout was purely voluntary, now everyone is pressured to use them whether they like it or not. So this includes a lot of people who would, given a choice, greatly prefer a human cashier and do better with a human cashier.
This is, of course, entirely intentional. The goal is to cut cashier jobs. The blame lies with the CEOs of supermarket chains, not the ordinary folks who have been pushed into lining up for self-checkout against their wishes, with machines that are deliberately inferior to cashier station machines.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:59 PM on February 7, 2024 [24 favorites]
Firstly, self-checkout machines are not like cashier checkout machines. They are (a) much slower, and (b) have all sorts of anti-theft hurdles ("unexpected item in the bagging area!") They frequently, for no apparent reason, require an attendant to come in and manually override.
Secondly, self-checkout has morphed from being a small minority of checkout stations to the main form of checkout, often the majority of checkout stations in my local supermarkets. This means that whereas previously for shoppers using self-checkout was purely voluntary, now everyone is pressured to use them whether they like it or not. So this includes a lot of people who would, given a choice, greatly prefer a human cashier and do better with a human cashier.
This is, of course, entirely intentional. The goal is to cut cashier jobs. The blame lies with the CEOs of supermarket chains, not the ordinary folks who have been pushed into lining up for self-checkout against their wishes, with machines that are deliberately inferior to cashier station machines.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:59 PM on February 7, 2024 [24 favorites]
I have absolutely no idea what the issue is, because my FIVE-year-old grandchild is capable, competent, and FAST at doing pretty much everything with the self-checkout except lift things that are too heavy for her and use pins she doesn't know... and she's been doing it at this level for over a year already.
She can't even READ the darn thing, and yet even system updates that perplexed the staff for a day or two didn't phase her a bit. (Yes, she seriously is just as quick as more than 50% of the checkers.)
So... I really don't get why the learning curve seems so steep for some.
My daughter (who works in retail and often supervises self-checkout) believes that for some not-fluent-English speakers, the initial question (often about bags or charity) puzzles them, and they don't realize that they can typically just ignore it and start scanning. That causes an initial pause, but then once they're show to just start scanning, they're fine.
She's also pretty sure that there's a large population of just-plain-stubborn who would prefer to whine about how long the lines with staff are then just check themselves out...
Given that I, too, am faster than most of the staff these days... I'd rather just do it myself and move on with my day. I've spent enough of my life in lines, and my time is worth more than waiting for someone else to do it.
posted by stormyteal at 10:12 PM on February 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
She can't even READ the darn thing, and yet even system updates that perplexed the staff for a day or two didn't phase her a bit. (Yes, she seriously is just as quick as more than 50% of the checkers.)
So... I really don't get why the learning curve seems so steep for some.
My daughter (who works in retail and often supervises self-checkout) believes that for some not-fluent-English speakers, the initial question (often about bags or charity) puzzles them, and they don't realize that they can typically just ignore it and start scanning. That causes an initial pause, but then once they're show to just start scanning, they're fine.
She's also pretty sure that there's a large population of just-plain-stubborn who would prefer to whine about how long the lines with staff are then just check themselves out...
Given that I, too, am faster than most of the staff these days... I'd rather just do it myself and move on with my day. I've spent enough of my life in lines, and my time is worth more than waiting for someone else to do it.
posted by stormyteal at 10:12 PM on February 7, 2024 [1 favorite]
I just yesterday had a huge 10 minute dispute with a check-out machine that insisted I needed to remove an item from the bagging area over and over. I needed an employee to help, as there was nothing in the bagging area, and it took twice as long as it should have for me to check out. I greatly prefer a human cashier, but my local and convenient supermarket often does not have a human cashier at all.
Most importantly, I want there to be decent jobs for people who don't have the education or training to hold better jobs (I think we probably would agree that a supermarket job is not what most people aspire to). I always ask for a human checker if there isn't one, so management knows the job is valued. Secondly, I just want to get my food bagged and paid for, painlessly; checkers know all the codes.
posted by citygirl at 10:39 PM on February 7, 2024 [18 favorites]
Most importantly, I want there to be decent jobs for people who don't have the education or training to hold better jobs (I think we probably would agree that a supermarket job is not what most people aspire to). I always ask for a human checker if there isn't one, so management knows the job is valued. Secondly, I just want to get my food bagged and paid for, painlessly; checkers know all the codes.
posted by citygirl at 10:39 PM on February 7, 2024 [18 favorites]
I am a capable, intelligent and physically able human being. Self-checkout was so atrociously bad in the early years that I still actively avoid it. I would 1000% rather have a checkout person handle my items, as unless I’m buying fewer than 5 items, the checkout person WILL be faster than me.
I find the UI so confusing probably because 1) my daily work does not involve checkout processes and 2) I only use self checkout 1-2x/year and never at the same stores (often while traveling - I normally do a once-a-week BIG grocery run and rarely make short/quick shopping trips of a few items), so each time it’s basically a brand new experience and I am NEVER in the mood.
posted by samthemander at 10:54 PM on February 7, 2024 [6 favorites]
I find the UI so confusing probably because 1) my daily work does not involve checkout processes and 2) I only use self checkout 1-2x/year and never at the same stores (often while traveling - I normally do a once-a-week BIG grocery run and rarely make short/quick shopping trips of a few items), so each time it’s basically a brand new experience and I am NEVER in the mood.
posted by samthemander at 10:54 PM on February 7, 2024 [6 favorites]
Regarding people taking longer to do things than you do - a lot of people struggle with reading comprehension. That means that all the things where you are expected to read and click things will take them longer to accomplish and they are more likely to get it wrong and need help.
Self check-out varies significantly not just from shop to shop but also across borders. I am not suggesting the people who hold up the process are all foreign visitors. But I live in a country where they don't rely on scales to confirm you have scanned all the things. Which removes all the pain around scales getting confused, which seems to be the main cause for hold ups and takes more time to resolve than confirming age or other correction.
What they do here is randomly flag people for a scan checks after they confirm they have scanned everything and before they pay. The employee that supervises the self checkouts comes along, randomly picks five of your bagged items and scans them to check they were scanned. Assuming they were all scanned that's the end.
This does not happen very frequently and takes a lot less time for the employees than it would take to resolve all the scale problems. I can only assume that they don't have more problems with shrinkage than anywhere else in the world or else that the increased shrinkage is still cheaper than the additional manpower it would take to supervise the inefficient scale based systems.
posted by koahiatamadl at 12:35 AM on February 8, 2024 [3 favorites]
Self check-out varies significantly not just from shop to shop but also across borders. I am not suggesting the people who hold up the process are all foreign visitors. But I live in a country where they don't rely on scales to confirm you have scanned all the things. Which removes all the pain around scales getting confused, which seems to be the main cause for hold ups and takes more time to resolve than confirming age or other correction.
What they do here is randomly flag people for a scan checks after they confirm they have scanned everything and before they pay. The employee that supervises the self checkouts comes along, randomly picks five of your bagged items and scans them to check they were scanned. Assuming they were all scanned that's the end.
This does not happen very frequently and takes a lot less time for the employees than it would take to resolve all the scale problems. I can only assume that they don't have more problems with shrinkage than anywhere else in the world or else that the increased shrinkage is still cheaper than the additional manpower it would take to supervise the inefficient scale based systems.
posted by koahiatamadl at 12:35 AM on February 8, 2024 [3 favorites]
we're all just humaning, man. We don't know what's going on in people's lives, what leads them to act in the ways they do. With fewer exceptions than we'd ever guess, everyone's just trying to do the best they can.
I have nothing to add to this - I just thought it was worth repeating. I often fail to remember it myself and a reminder of its value never goes to waste.
posted by Paul Slade at 1:06 AM on February 8, 2024 [18 favorites]
I have nothing to add to this - I just thought it was worth repeating. I often fail to remember it myself and a reminder of its value never goes to waste.
posted by Paul Slade at 1:06 AM on February 8, 2024 [18 favorites]
I have absolutely no idea what the issue is, because my FIVE-year-old grandchild is capable, competent, and FAST at doing pretty much everything with the self-checkout except lift things that are too heavy for her and use pins she doesn't know... and she's been doing it at this level for over a year already.
She can't even READ the darn thing, and yet even system updates that perplexed the staff for a day or two didn't phase her a bit. (Yes, she seriously is just as quick as more than 50% of the checkers.)
Little kids usually have no idea about the ways things can go wrong, don't get performance anxiety about the possibility of doing something wrong because they aren't actually used to generally doing everything right, have zero concept of money being an important and finite resource that you have to be careful about, or of plastic cards being easy to make mistakes with and then your money disappears just like that and you have to go through the hassle of trying to reverse it, don't have the ability to imagine future hassles in general, don't worry about getting in trouble with store security, don't try to read what everything says to make sure they're doing things right, don't try to read what everything says to make sure they aren't missing some opportunity, aren't thinking about a million other things at the same time, etc.
Life is a lot simpler when you don't know the stakes and can be blissfully confident that everything'll be fine.
(Not to mention that most adults probably don't associate self-checkout with fun praise from impressed adults. Maybe instead of barking robotically at us, the machines should have soft pleasant voices telling us "you bagged the thing! I'm so proud of you", and "I bet you can't find the shiny yellow button that lets you pay now! Oh wow, you did it!" Might lessen stress and improve response times.)
posted by trig at 2:50 AM on February 8, 2024 [24 favorites]
She can't even READ the darn thing, and yet even system updates that perplexed the staff for a day or two didn't phase her a bit. (Yes, she seriously is just as quick as more than 50% of the checkers.)
Little kids usually have no idea about the ways things can go wrong, don't get performance anxiety about the possibility of doing something wrong because they aren't actually used to generally doing everything right, have zero concept of money being an important and finite resource that you have to be careful about, or of plastic cards being easy to make mistakes with and then your money disappears just like that and you have to go through the hassle of trying to reverse it, don't have the ability to imagine future hassles in general, don't worry about getting in trouble with store security, don't try to read what everything says to make sure they're doing things right, don't try to read what everything says to make sure they aren't missing some opportunity, aren't thinking about a million other things at the same time, etc.
Life is a lot simpler when you don't know the stakes and can be blissfully confident that everything'll be fine.
(Not to mention that most adults probably don't associate self-checkout with fun praise from impressed adults. Maybe instead of barking robotically at us, the machines should have soft pleasant voices telling us "you bagged the thing! I'm so proud of you", and "I bet you can't find the shiny yellow button that lets you pay now! Oh wow, you did it!" Might lessen stress and improve response times.)
posted by trig at 2:50 AM on February 8, 2024 [24 favorites]
I've used them for years in Canada. They have unquestionably gotten worse and harder to use in the past six months as stores attempt to alter their functionality to stop supposed theft due to price gouging.
Here, they changed the functionality with zero instruction for how they work so it took me repeated trips and interaction with staff to figure out what is going on.
Here's how they MUST work now (at my grocery store):
- the checkout scanner has a shelf on either side.
- you put your basket on one side.
- you scan an item and put it on the shelf on the other side.
- repeat
- do this until you're done.
- checkout.
- bag your stuff.
Seems logical and straight forward, yes? I mean, how else would you do it?
BUT
The "scanned it" shelf is now weighted and knows the weight of every product in the store.
Until the shelf increases with the weight of whatever you just scanned, the entire thing is unusuable.
Scanned an item and put it on the shelf but then realize it's scanned wrong so you pick it up again? Error, freeze. Accidentally double scanned? The shelf now has the wrong weight. Freeze. item is in computer wrong and scans as wrong item? Freeze.
Inadvertently put something on the shelf to help you better use the machine, like your glasses or your gloves? Freeze.
Store has put wrong weight for item into system? Freeze.
Here's the big one for me: shelf is too fucking small to allow each thing its own space so you have to stack them... but you were thoughtful when you shopped and put the crushable things on the top of your basket which now puts them on the bottom of the scanned shelf so you need to reorganize the shelf? Freeze.
Each time it freezes, it will not unfreeze until staff enter a code.
Lastly, when you're done scanning everything, you then have to try and bag stuff. Before you used to be able to put your reusable bag on the shelf and put stuff in as you scan it. Nope, not anymore. Now you have to do it on the floor when your done. (The basket shelf is not big enough for your backpack, it's only big enough for a basket.
I fucking hate them so much.
posted by dobbs at 3:07 AM on February 8, 2024 [16 favorites]
Here, they changed the functionality with zero instruction for how they work so it took me repeated trips and interaction with staff to figure out what is going on.
Here's how they MUST work now (at my grocery store):
- the checkout scanner has a shelf on either side.
- you put your basket on one side.
- you scan an item and put it on the shelf on the other side.
- repeat
- do this until you're done.
- checkout.
- bag your stuff.
Seems logical and straight forward, yes? I mean, how else would you do it?
BUT
The "scanned it" shelf is now weighted and knows the weight of every product in the store.
Until the shelf increases with the weight of whatever you just scanned, the entire thing is unusuable.
Scanned an item and put it on the shelf but then realize it's scanned wrong so you pick it up again? Error, freeze. Accidentally double scanned? The shelf now has the wrong weight. Freeze. item is in computer wrong and scans as wrong item? Freeze.
Inadvertently put something on the shelf to help you better use the machine, like your glasses or your gloves? Freeze.
Store has put wrong weight for item into system? Freeze.
Here's the big one for me: shelf is too fucking small to allow each thing its own space so you have to stack them... but you were thoughtful when you shopped and put the crushable things on the top of your basket which now puts them on the bottom of the scanned shelf so you need to reorganize the shelf? Freeze.
Each time it freezes, it will not unfreeze until staff enter a code.
Lastly, when you're done scanning everything, you then have to try and bag stuff. Before you used to be able to put your reusable bag on the shelf and put stuff in as you scan it. Nope, not anymore. Now you have to do it on the floor when your done. (The basket shelf is not big enough for your backpack, it's only big enough for a basket.
I fucking hate them so much.
posted by dobbs at 3:07 AM on February 8, 2024 [16 favorites]
I detest self checkout and will only use it as an absolute last resort.
As for me, I am inconsiderately "herding my errant child" (I suppose the considerate option is to allow her to run amok?) as she presses buttons and fiddles and moves things to and fro, getting entangled in my legs, and I'm trying to redirect that kid energy into productively helping me. I'm sorry children have the right to exist in public and it's temporarily inconvenient, but this is how they learn and it's how we all learned as well.
I have invisible disabilities, I take medications, and one side effect is a loss of hand dexterity. I'm trying to negotiate the entire infernal process with the floppy ham sandwiches on the ends of my wrists, instead of proper hands.
I have what my friends and family refer to as a force field that breaks technology (I have been known to smack into automatic doors, like a dazzled songbird, because they don't always notice me). So I get a high number of bizarre errors.
And maybe people could just learn a bit of patience and grace, because most of us are just trying to get through the day with the scraps of our dignity intact.
At some point, public imperfections come for us all.
posted by champers at 3:36 AM on February 8, 2024 [10 favorites]
As for me, I am inconsiderately "herding my errant child" (I suppose the considerate option is to allow her to run amok?) as she presses buttons and fiddles and moves things to and fro, getting entangled in my legs, and I'm trying to redirect that kid energy into productively helping me. I'm sorry children have the right to exist in public and it's temporarily inconvenient, but this is how they learn and it's how we all learned as well.
I have invisible disabilities, I take medications, and one side effect is a loss of hand dexterity. I'm trying to negotiate the entire infernal process with the floppy ham sandwiches on the ends of my wrists, instead of proper hands.
I have what my friends and family refer to as a force field that breaks technology (I have been known to smack into automatic doors, like a dazzled songbird, because they don't always notice me). So I get a high number of bizarre errors.
And maybe people could just learn a bit of patience and grace, because most of us are just trying to get through the day with the scraps of our dignity intact.
At some point, public imperfections come for us all.
posted by champers at 3:36 AM on February 8, 2024 [10 favorites]
One of the biggest supermarket chains where I live will only tare their own plastic reusable bags. I prefer fabric or recycled bags in a bigger size, so basically this store has decided, through their own policy choices, that I will need the assistance of a real human every time I bring my own bag to the store. This is true even though bringing one's own bag has been expected behaviour since around 2015, when the UK government introduced charges for single-use carrier bags.
From a pure user perspective I love self-checkout (not including any negative overall impact on the labour market or the ability for humans to have jobs that meet their needs), because the supermarket is a place that inherently makes me angry and wound up for various sensory reasons (it's so bright and loud, there are so many people, most of the people in there didn't get abused as children [unlike me] for being in the way all the time, meaning they meander around painfully slowly and leave their carts blocking access to everything, while I'm treating the experience like an in-and-out timed heist mission, for my own sanity and wellbeing and because on some level I still fear getting yelled at or beaten if I am ever in anyone's way).
Not having to have an interaction with a person in order to buy the food I need to stay alive theoretically marginally improves the stressfulness of that interaction - except the UX design of most self checkouts is so bad that it introduces additional unnecessary friction (like why can't the accepted tare for own bags be just a little heavier?). It's still a net stress win for me, but it could be an even bigger net win if the system design was less clumsy, irritating and failure-prone.
posted by terretu at 4:11 AM on February 8, 2024 [2 favorites]
From a pure user perspective I love self-checkout (not including any negative overall impact on the labour market or the ability for humans to have jobs that meet their needs), because the supermarket is a place that inherently makes me angry and wound up for various sensory reasons (it's so bright and loud, there are so many people, most of the people in there didn't get abused as children [unlike me] for being in the way all the time, meaning they meander around painfully slowly and leave their carts blocking access to everything, while I'm treating the experience like an in-and-out timed heist mission, for my own sanity and wellbeing and because on some level I still fear getting yelled at or beaten if I am ever in anyone's way).
Not having to have an interaction with a person in order to buy the food I need to stay alive theoretically marginally improves the stressfulness of that interaction - except the UX design of most self checkouts is so bad that it introduces additional unnecessary friction (like why can't the accepted tare for own bags be just a little heavier?). It's still a net stress win for me, but it could be an even bigger net win if the system design was less clumsy, irritating and failure-prone.
posted by terretu at 4:11 AM on February 8, 2024 [2 favorites]
The self service checkouts are very difficult to use if you are a wheelchair user, without twisting your neck/shoulders/back into a painful pretzel.
And they are designed so that if you are facing the screen, your wheelchair is blocking the narrow gap that other people are trying to walk through to exit the store. :(
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 4:57 AM on February 8, 2024 [11 favorites]
And they are designed so that if you are facing the screen, your wheelchair is blocking the narrow gap that other people are trying to walk through to exit the store. :(
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 4:57 AM on February 8, 2024 [11 favorites]
So, I am I think only mildly neurodiverse - ADHD, but it carries a lot of sensory stuff that probably overlaps with both spectrum disorders and vision/hearing difficulties - but I hate the self-checkout because by the time I'm checking out I'm already pretty overstimulated by the godawful lighting, electronic hum, social static, and all the math and science I have to carry around in my head, and THEN I have to deal with the shitty user experience at the checkout. And I have worked checkout in grocery stores, in the early days of scanners even!
But I swear someone has decided that the response time between scan and screen on self-checkout needs to be slowed down, so that instead of my cashier-style scan + get instant audio feedback of a good scan + see visual feedback in the corner of my eye process that takes one second per item, I can't trust I'm getting a good scan until the screen updates sometimes 2-3 seconds later. Which means you can't drop the item until you've confirmed, and then you have to worry about the weight of the item registering (a thing they DON'T do to cashiers precisely because it will slow them down to a point that is MORE expensive than whatever the hit rate is on bad scans). The other issue is the ergonomics of the self-check stations where your incoming items are not being fed to your right hand at scanner level, but are...where the fuck ever, somewhere nearby.
(Side rant: when I worked at Kroger, some of the checkstands didn't have a conveyer belt, the cart pulled straight up to the edge of the scanner and the front of the cart dropped down so you had a straight shot out of the cart across the scanner, it was absolutely exquisite design but I assume it made the carts more expensive.)
posted by Lyn Never at 6:12 AM on February 8, 2024 [7 favorites]
But I swear someone has decided that the response time between scan and screen on self-checkout needs to be slowed down, so that instead of my cashier-style scan + get instant audio feedback of a good scan + see visual feedback in the corner of my eye process that takes one second per item, I can't trust I'm getting a good scan until the screen updates sometimes 2-3 seconds later. Which means you can't drop the item until you've confirmed, and then you have to worry about the weight of the item registering (a thing they DON'T do to cashiers precisely because it will slow them down to a point that is MORE expensive than whatever the hit rate is on bad scans). The other issue is the ergonomics of the self-check stations where your incoming items are not being fed to your right hand at scanner level, but are...where the fuck ever, somewhere nearby.
(Side rant: when I worked at Kroger, some of the checkstands didn't have a conveyer belt, the cart pulled straight up to the edge of the scanner and the front of the cart dropped down so you had a straight shot out of the cart across the scanner, it was absolutely exquisite design but I assume it made the carts more expensive.)
posted by Lyn Never at 6:12 AM on February 8, 2024 [7 favorites]
Every CEO and C-level employee should be required to self-check a couple dozen full carts of groceries, with beer, lots of interesting vegetables to be weighed, etc.
Also, in many groceries, checkers are union members, making it a terrific job that anybody should aspire to, esp. if they like people. Hey, you don't think that's another reason to eliminate them?
posted by theora55 at 6:48 AM on February 8, 2024 [13 favorites]
Also, in many groceries, checkers are union members, making it a terrific job that anybody should aspire to, esp. if they like people. Hey, you don't think that's another reason to eliminate them?
posted by theora55 at 6:48 AM on February 8, 2024 [13 favorites]
I am a capable, intelligent and physically able human being. Self-checkout was so atrociously bad in the early years that I still actively avoid it.
Same here. And from what people are reporting above it doesn't sound like it has improved very much.
posted by JanetLand at 7:49 AM on February 8, 2024 [2 favorites]
Same here. And from what people are reporting above it doesn't sound like it has improved very much.
posted by JanetLand at 7:49 AM on February 8, 2024 [2 favorites]
I babysit these for a living, albeit in Australia, but I imagine it's not overly different.
More people than you probably think are new (and reluctant) to self serve, as stores reduce manned checkout hours. Many people, especially elderly folks, are nervous. Or aren't fluent readers. Or are just tired or stressed or distracted. Or have poor vision or difficulty with fine motor skills. Etc.
Layouts and interfaces are different everywhere. It's not always obvious at a glance where you should put your basket and where you should put your scanned items. On some SCOs, if you get this wrong, you have to wait for the attendant.
Lots of things require attendant intervention. Weight mismatches (often a result of incorrect or outdated data in the system), produce below set minimum weights, damaged or missing barcodes, system freezing, double or mis-scans, unsaleable items (past-date, withdrawals not processed properly by the store, etc), age authorisation, etc. Most of these aren't avoidable by the user, and others are simply very understandable pitfalls for less experienced users, especially when attendants are often too busy (or just unwilling) to coach.
I don't know how common this is in the US yet, but here in Australia the supermarkets recently started to implement camera systems in the name of loss prevention. Which adds even more mandatory interventions and wait times, for things like errant scraps of lettuce, or a receipt, or your umbrella, that are still in your basket when you go to pay for your items. Or if you've scanned your bananas but your hand position was shading them so the machine couldn't get a clear picture, we gotta clear that too.
posted by lwb at 7:49 AM on February 8, 2024 [1 favorite]
More people than you probably think are new (and reluctant) to self serve, as stores reduce manned checkout hours. Many people, especially elderly folks, are nervous. Or aren't fluent readers. Or are just tired or stressed or distracted. Or have poor vision or difficulty with fine motor skills. Etc.
Layouts and interfaces are different everywhere. It's not always obvious at a glance where you should put your basket and where you should put your scanned items. On some SCOs, if you get this wrong, you have to wait for the attendant.
Lots of things require attendant intervention. Weight mismatches (often a result of incorrect or outdated data in the system), produce below set minimum weights, damaged or missing barcodes, system freezing, double or mis-scans, unsaleable items (past-date, withdrawals not processed properly by the store, etc), age authorisation, etc. Most of these aren't avoidable by the user, and others are simply very understandable pitfalls for less experienced users, especially when attendants are often too busy (or just unwilling) to coach.
I don't know how common this is in the US yet, but here in Australia the supermarkets recently started to implement camera systems in the name of loss prevention. Which adds even more mandatory interventions and wait times, for things like errant scraps of lettuce, or a receipt, or your umbrella, that are still in your basket when you go to pay for your items. Or if you've scanned your bananas but your hand position was shading them so the machine couldn't get a clear picture, we gotta clear that too.
posted by lwb at 7:49 AM on February 8, 2024 [1 favorite]
I had a bad experience early on, where the visual instructions I was trying to follow on the screen did not say the same thing as the auditory instructions. While I was trying to figure out what they were both saying and how to reconcile them, the customer behind me, impatient to use the machine, moved in close and started offer a third, conflicting set of instructions and wouldn't stop, getting increasingly upset when I didn't follow her instructions, which were wrong anyway.
It was a bad enough experience that I now approach self-checkouts, primed to be anxious, expecting unpleasant and unwanted social interactions. I figure if I am going to use them it will take me about three times as long as the person behind me will find acceptable.
Since they installed self-checkouts I am increasingly seeing people just dashing out without paying, and now you have to keep an eye out for them because they will barrel right into you when they make their run for it.
I am also not too happy about the self check outs putting cashiers out of work, nor the fact that they reportedly target minority and shabby looking customers to screen for shoplifting. If I were black I'd be afraid to use self-checkouts in case the cheese failed to scan and I got charged with theft, or banned from the store on suspicion.
My assumption is that self check outs will make things slower, because there is no downside to the business if they do. It's the same as bank machines. First they cut back on tellers so the lines got long, then they installed bank machines so for a few things you needed to do at a bank you could dash in and out by using the machine, then they reduced the number of machines and you now wait in line as long for a bank machine, as you did when you had to wait in line for a teller, except there are fewer machines and they can't put an extra one in service during busy times like they could with the tellers.
So there is no point getting impatient when the self check out lines take longer than they did with a teller. That's just the way it is, and the way it is going to be from now on. Luckily you probably have a phone to occupy yourself with while you wait. You probably better be realistic and bring your phone out and chill. I'll bet good money that wait times in retail establishments are going to get steadily longer over the next few years.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:17 AM on February 8, 2024 [8 favorites]
It was a bad enough experience that I now approach self-checkouts, primed to be anxious, expecting unpleasant and unwanted social interactions. I figure if I am going to use them it will take me about three times as long as the person behind me will find acceptable.
Since they installed self-checkouts I am increasingly seeing people just dashing out without paying, and now you have to keep an eye out for them because they will barrel right into you when they make their run for it.
I am also not too happy about the self check outs putting cashiers out of work, nor the fact that they reportedly target minority and shabby looking customers to screen for shoplifting. If I were black I'd be afraid to use self-checkouts in case the cheese failed to scan and I got charged with theft, or banned from the store on suspicion.
My assumption is that self check outs will make things slower, because there is no downside to the business if they do. It's the same as bank machines. First they cut back on tellers so the lines got long, then they installed bank machines so for a few things you needed to do at a bank you could dash in and out by using the machine, then they reduced the number of machines and you now wait in line as long for a bank machine, as you did when you had to wait in line for a teller, except there are fewer machines and they can't put an extra one in service during busy times like they could with the tellers.
So there is no point getting impatient when the self check out lines take longer than they did with a teller. That's just the way it is, and the way it is going to be from now on. Luckily you probably have a phone to occupy yourself with while you wait. You probably better be realistic and bring your phone out and chill. I'll bet good money that wait times in retail establishments are going to get steadily longer over the next few years.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:17 AM on February 8, 2024 [8 favorites]
My partner, who is at least as smart as me, is much slower than I at operating self checkouts. This is because their visual recognition of what button to press next is much slower than mine. They have been using computer for as long as me. But their brain does not find the button for several seconds, for each button. I mean, this is just one thing. I am very adept at parsing user interfaces. Most others are not. People are different. I don’t like self checkouts except at Dollarama which are pretty fast and forgiving with the scale and don’t fuck about with too many extra steps. But loads of other people at Dollarama are getting all kinds of flak from the machines. It’s just that it’s a one size solution and people are all different sizes.
Props to the people who rip off Canadian grocery stores though. I haven’t the patience to fuck over the Loblaws scanners but I totally approve.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:46 AM on February 8, 2024
Props to the people who rip off Canadian grocery stores though. I haven’t the patience to fuck over the Loblaws scanners but I totally approve.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:46 AM on February 8, 2024
I'm a reasonably smart and capable human; I'm gainfully employed, fully literate, university educated, very privileged along any number of axes. I am thwarted at least once a week by a self checkout.
The most recent thing is that the grocery store I frequent recently installed some kind of camera software to catch would-be shoplifters putting an unscanned item into their bags. The problem is, the software is an idiot, so here are the things it flags as me putting an unscanned item into a bag:
-Me, putting a scanned item into a bag
-Me, reaching across one bag to put an item into a second bag
-Me, reaching into my purse to pull out my wallet to pay for my not-stolen groceries
-A stiff breeze
When it flags you as a THIEVING THIEF POOR PERSON the whole thing shuts down until a manager can be summoned. Whereupon the manager (Tim, he's a doll, the most patient man alive) comes over, sees it's me -- a literally daily customer-- and clears the code. If Tim doesn't know the person, he has to comb through their bags and check everything against the screen.
Anyway, fuck capitalism and especially whatever AI software they're using in self-checkouts these days.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:50 AM on February 8, 2024 [13 favorites]
The most recent thing is that the grocery store I frequent recently installed some kind of camera software to catch would-be shoplifters putting an unscanned item into their bags. The problem is, the software is an idiot, so here are the things it flags as me putting an unscanned item into a bag:
-Me, putting a scanned item into a bag
-Me, reaching across one bag to put an item into a second bag
-Me, reaching into my purse to pull out my wallet to pay for my not-stolen groceries
-A stiff breeze
When it flags you as a THIEVING THIEF POOR PERSON the whole thing shuts down until a manager can be summoned. Whereupon the manager (Tim, he's a doll, the most patient man alive) comes over, sees it's me -- a literally daily customer-- and clears the code. If Tim doesn't know the person, he has to comb through their bags and check everything against the screen.
Anyway, fuck capitalism and especially whatever AI software they're using in self-checkouts these days.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:50 AM on February 8, 2024 [13 favorites]
I cashiered at a grocery store in high school and college, which paid my college tuition at the time (thanks late 90s!), so I am GOOD at self-checkout and still remember a lot of my produce codes. Bananas 4011 4eva.
The reason this happens to me used to be reusable bags, but I no longer put those out -- I just leave them in the cart, put my groceries on the flat "put groceries here" area, and then once I've paid for everything I bag them and put them back in my cart. This happens to me because I occasionally do multiple orders, or I have my reusable bags hanging off the drink cup holders on my cart, and the self-check machine "sees" something still in my cart and I have to wait for an employee to come over and check that I'm not stealing anything. I can usually get around this by pushing my cart out of the eye of the self-check, but I don't always get it right.
I also sometimes need an employee to come over because I have a coupon that printed out from the Catalina/magic coupon machine the last visit, but the ink was low, so it's not scanning properly and they have to input it.
posted by jabes at 8:56 AM on February 8, 2024
The reason this happens to me used to be reusable bags, but I no longer put those out -- I just leave them in the cart, put my groceries on the flat "put groceries here" area, and then once I've paid for everything I bag them and put them back in my cart. This happens to me because I occasionally do multiple orders, or I have my reusable bags hanging off the drink cup holders on my cart, and the self-check machine "sees" something still in my cart and I have to wait for an employee to come over and check that I'm not stealing anything. I can usually get around this by pushing my cart out of the eye of the self-check, but I don't always get it right.
I also sometimes need an employee to come over because I have a coupon that printed out from the Catalina/magic coupon machine the last visit, but the ink was low, so it's not scanning properly and they have to input it.
posted by jabes at 8:56 AM on February 8, 2024
Also if you're someone who's never poor enough to need to check every single line item on your screen in case it's scanned as more expensive than you expected, count your lucky damn stars as you breeze uncomplicatedly through the checkout. I know that's what my mother is always doing --she might well be one of those people who mystifies you so. She's also smart and literate, but she is on a fixed income and she can't afford to buy the sale thing if it doesn't ring up at the sale price.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:58 AM on February 8, 2024 [17 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:58 AM on February 8, 2024 [17 favorites]
need to check every single line item on your screen in case it's scanned as more expensive than you expected
I'm pretty good at using them, but a grocery chain near me, when you use a coupon for a specific product, reduces a bunch of products' price by the amount of the coupon, like .10 off a banana, and .10 off cereal and .10 off pasta sauce, and doesn't include the entire discount of the coupon ($5 off $25 purchase or whatever) so it's impossible to add it up like a normal person would to make sure it works correctly. I'm not sure who designs that software, but I assume it's like most industrial appliance software designers, and they don't pay well or are very interesting and aren't getting the best software designers.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:29 AM on February 8, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty good at using them, but a grocery chain near me, when you use a coupon for a specific product, reduces a bunch of products' price by the amount of the coupon, like .10 off a banana, and .10 off cereal and .10 off pasta sauce, and doesn't include the entire discount of the coupon ($5 off $25 purchase or whatever) so it's impossible to add it up like a normal person would to make sure it works correctly. I'm not sure who designs that software, but I assume it's like most industrial appliance software designers, and they don't pay well or are very interesting and aren't getting the best software designers.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:29 AM on February 8, 2024 [2 favorites]
In addition to all of the above, sometimes I'm just tired. So I move slowly. I would invite you to consider if you feel that anyone, especially someone who isn't getting paid to do this thing, owes you efficiency. There's lots of kiosks, so one person being slow, or checking out a full cart gets balanced out by the person buying one yogurt or whatever.
As I've gotten older and since the pandemic, I'm like, things take as long as they take. Unless it's a fire engine or an ambulance, it really isn't an emergency. I don't like hurrying. It makes my day worse so I try not to hurry.
Also surprised no one has brought up the observer conundrum here--it could be that you take just as long as others to check out but it doesn't feel that way because you're not observing yourself? Food for thought.
posted by purple_bird at 9:36 AM on February 8, 2024 [14 favorites]
As I've gotten older and since the pandemic, I'm like, things take as long as they take. Unless it's a fire engine or an ambulance, it really isn't an emergency. I don't like hurrying. It makes my day worse so I try not to hurry.
Also surprised no one has brought up the observer conundrum here--it could be that you take just as long as others to check out but it doesn't feel that way because you're not observing yourself? Food for thought.
posted by purple_bird at 9:36 AM on February 8, 2024 [14 favorites]
In my case, the most common delay is: the specific item I have selected is not even LISTED as an OPTION as a thing to buy. My own grocery store has different kinds of bread rolls you can grab on a one-by-one basis, for various price points - 2 hero rolls for a dollar, a ciabatta square for $2.50, whatever. But for some insanely stupid reason they only have ONE option for rolls, and only ONE price point, and there ain't no way I'm spending $2.50 for the single hero roll that should only be costing me fifty cents, dammit.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:49 AM on February 8, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:49 AM on February 8, 2024 [5 favorites]
I think it's been mentioned multiple times already, but I'll say it again - for me, 9 times out of 10 its due to the idiotic anti-theft measures they use, particularly those stupid scales. I spent three years in my youth working as a grocery store clerk, know how to scan items, and still struggled with the constant "REMOVE UNSCANNED ITEM" every damn time. The rest of the time it's because I'm buying booze and waiting for an overworked employee to card me.
Also I'm assuming this is in the US? I didn't realize just how frustrating those stupid anti-theft scales were until I moved to Sweden a couple of years ago. Self checkout is in most grocery stores here as well (which is its own issue), but those weird bag scales don't exist and it makes it WAY WAY easier and faster. There is instead a turnstile at the very end that requires you to scan your receipt, which seems far less prone to errors.
posted by photo guy at 10:37 AM on February 8, 2024 [3 favorites]
Also I'm assuming this is in the US? I didn't realize just how frustrating those stupid anti-theft scales were until I moved to Sweden a couple of years ago. Self checkout is in most grocery stores here as well (which is its own issue), but those weird bag scales don't exist and it makes it WAY WAY easier and faster. There is instead a turnstile at the very end that requires you to scan your receipt, which seems far less prone to errors.
posted by photo guy at 10:37 AM on February 8, 2024 [3 favorites]
In my part of the world, self-scan areas have become larger and more heavily patronised, but the effective level of staffing has stayed the same or decreased (sometimes the lone staff member for the self-check out also seems to be responsible for the service desk!) This means that each request for an override takes longer. Some supermarkets have also introduced more anti-theft measures which are usually false alarms, and also require an override - maybe by OP's calculus is my fault for holding up proceedings by foolishly having other shopping bags with me, or owning a handbag?
posted by Cheese Monster at 10:49 AM on February 8, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by Cheese Monster at 10:49 AM on February 8, 2024 [2 favorites]
The delay for me is frequently due to the smart machine not remembering who I am and what I bought last time, even though I scan whatever loyalty card to remind them of who I am and my entire purchasing history. Just once, I'd love for the machine to go, "Oh, yeah, you definitely weren't born before today's date in 2003 because we sorted that out last time."
posted by emelenjr at 10:51 AM on February 8, 2024
posted by emelenjr at 10:51 AM on February 8, 2024
People are weird. If I had $5 for every person that seemed shocked that they had to pay for their food at the end of the transaction and then spends several minutes getting out cash or a card, I'd be retired by now.
posted by Candleman at 1:24 PM on February 8, 2024
posted by Candleman at 1:24 PM on February 8, 2024
The typical self-checkout system consists of 5-6-7 different proprietary systems, each persnickety in its own particular way, and cobbled together using a combination of bailing wire, spit, and a few prayers.
It is designed and built by people who are generally young professionals with extensive ability and experience using technology and who have generally perfect eyesight, hearing, and no particular disability. And then is never given extensive end-to-end testing in real-world conditions with the entire spectrum of its actual user base. I can say this with complete confidence, because if you were to do so you would never end up with a system anything like that one we have. (Flug-spouse spent some decades in corporate QA before being drummed out as too old (mid-50s) and redundant as "we don't actually need QA or software testing - we can just have the 22 year old non-English-speaker programmers do all the testing we need, don't you know." This was the actual corporate line. Don't get me started or I could go on for several hundred more pages.)
So keep in mind here that the systems are being designed and built by people who are probably at the top 5% (or even 1% or 0.1%) of ability level in regards to technology, and even basics like physical dexterity, eyesight, and vision. Then it's just put out there - without any particular instructions - for the remaining 99% of the population to try to figure out as best they can.
Even more important than that, however, is the simple fact that speed and ease of customer use is quite likely not even on the list of requirements for the system - or if it is, it there, but so far below the real customer requirements that it won't even register.
Those customer requirements are going to be set by the customer of the system - which is, ie the corporate overlords of the retail chain, not the retail customers or even the staff of the individual stores - and will include, at the top, such priorities as:
- Minimizing staff time spent running check-out (this is, after all, the overarching purpose of these machines. Staff time is super expensive the and whole purpose of the thing is to eliminate staff hours and replace the work the staff previously did with the machine's work, which is not paid continuously on an hourly basis)
- Minimizing theft/shrinkage
- Keeping cost of the self-checkout units/system as low as possible
- Adherence to relevant laws and regulations sufficient to keep purchasers/operators of the self-checkout systems out of jail
These are the things the people with decision-making power to buy and install such self-checkout systems value, and as such, these will be capabilities designed into the systems.
If a retail customer has to wait 5 minutes for an alcohol purchase to be approved or fiddly-diddly problems with the bag fill area to be resolved, those are both the system operating exactly as designed and required.
These are both big wins for the system purchaser: #1. Minimized staff time required - one staff member is supervising dozens of stations rather than just one. #2. Stopped possible illegal/unauthorized alcohol purchase. #3. Stopped and - even more important - discouraged retail theft by giving the retail customer the impression that this automated system is watching their every move like a hawk and so they'd better not try pulling a fast one or they'll be caught for sure.
The fact that the retail customer actually doing the self-checkout spends a couple of extra minutes to make all this happen is no concern of the retailer. They're not paying that person by the minute to work for them. The only possible way this might register is if it causes collective disgust with the overall system to the point that people actually revolt and stop using them entirely. But that occasional couple minutes wait is frankly not going to rise to that level at all.
And . . . your particular concern, as the person who is waiting in line behind a person who encounters the anti-theft or anti-youth sales, or whatever "feature" of the system the purchaser of the system wants: Well, sorry to inform you but your concerns and not even a blip on the radar of the system designer.
And to the degree they even are, the remedy will not be to fix the system so that it can easily be used by all customers whatever the ability level but rather: You have 8 self-checkout stations and clearly they do not provide enough capacity. Just install an additional 4 systems and the problem will be solved.
This is a solution that benefits both the seller and the customer of the systems. Keep in mind that customer is emphatically not you - it's the corporate buyer of such systems. The seller benefits here by more sales, and the corporate customer benefits because the solution is simple, tidy, and requires no more staffing.
And . . . this solution does not ever require the underlying issues with the system, that you as the waiting retail customer are acutely aware of, to be addressed or even acknowledged.
posted by flug at 1:38 PM on February 8, 2024 [12 favorites]
It is designed and built by people who are generally young professionals with extensive ability and experience using technology and who have generally perfect eyesight, hearing, and no particular disability. And then is never given extensive end-to-end testing in real-world conditions with the entire spectrum of its actual user base. I can say this with complete confidence, because if you were to do so you would never end up with a system anything like that one we have. (Flug-spouse spent some decades in corporate QA before being drummed out as too old (mid-50s) and redundant as "we don't actually need QA or software testing - we can just have the 22 year old non-English-speaker programmers do all the testing we need, don't you know." This was the actual corporate line. Don't get me started or I could go on for several hundred more pages.)
So keep in mind here that the systems are being designed and built by people who are probably at the top 5% (or even 1% or 0.1%) of ability level in regards to technology, and even basics like physical dexterity, eyesight, and vision. Then it's just put out there - without any particular instructions - for the remaining 99% of the population to try to figure out as best they can.
Even more important than that, however, is the simple fact that speed and ease of customer use is quite likely not even on the list of requirements for the system - or if it is, it there, but so far below the real customer requirements that it won't even register.
Those customer requirements are going to be set by the customer of the system - which is, ie the corporate overlords of the retail chain, not the retail customers or even the staff of the individual stores - and will include, at the top, such priorities as:
- Minimizing staff time spent running check-out (this is, after all, the overarching purpose of these machines. Staff time is super expensive the and whole purpose of the thing is to eliminate staff hours and replace the work the staff previously did with the machine's work, which is not paid continuously on an hourly basis)
- Minimizing theft/shrinkage
- Keeping cost of the self-checkout units/system as low as possible
- Adherence to relevant laws and regulations sufficient to keep purchasers/operators of the self-checkout systems out of jail
These are the things the people with decision-making power to buy and install such self-checkout systems value, and as such, these will be capabilities designed into the systems.
If a retail customer has to wait 5 minutes for an alcohol purchase to be approved or fiddly-diddly problems with the bag fill area to be resolved, those are both the system operating exactly as designed and required.
These are both big wins for the system purchaser: #1. Minimized staff time required - one staff member is supervising dozens of stations rather than just one. #2. Stopped possible illegal/unauthorized alcohol purchase. #3. Stopped and - even more important - discouraged retail theft by giving the retail customer the impression that this automated system is watching their every move like a hawk and so they'd better not try pulling a fast one or they'll be caught for sure.
The fact that the retail customer actually doing the self-checkout spends a couple of extra minutes to make all this happen is no concern of the retailer. They're not paying that person by the minute to work for them. The only possible way this might register is if it causes collective disgust with the overall system to the point that people actually revolt and stop using them entirely. But that occasional couple minutes wait is frankly not going to rise to that level at all.
And . . . your particular concern, as the person who is waiting in line behind a person who encounters the anti-theft or anti-youth sales, or whatever "feature" of the system the purchaser of the system wants: Well, sorry to inform you but your concerns and not even a blip on the radar of the system designer.
And to the degree they even are, the remedy will not be to fix the system so that it can easily be used by all customers whatever the ability level but rather: You have 8 self-checkout stations and clearly they do not provide enough capacity. Just install an additional 4 systems and the problem will be solved.
This is a solution that benefits both the seller and the customer of the systems. Keep in mind that customer is emphatically not you - it's the corporate buyer of such systems. The seller benefits here by more sales, and the corporate customer benefits because the solution is simple, tidy, and requires no more staffing.
And . . . this solution does not ever require the underlying issues with the system, that you as the waiting retail customer are acutely aware of, to be addressed or even acknowledged.
posted by flug at 1:38 PM on February 8, 2024 [12 favorites]
> Spell it out for me, please - what are those diverse needs that haven't been accounted for?
As I mentioned above:
Here a few basic facts about the general population (stats here for the U.S.):
* 21% of adults are considered functionally illiterate. Basically, they can't read at all.
* Fully 54% of U.S. adults lack proficiency in literacy. They read below the 6th grade level. Now you're trying to figure out a complicated technology system with 5th grade or below reading comprehension. Ok.
* Around 8% of the U.S. population has a serious visual impairment.
* That's not even getting into the ordinary type of visual impairment that strikes literally everyone above the age of 45 or 50 or so. Just for example, I can have the devil of a time reading a computer screen or sign or little instruction placque at just the distance of 1-2 arms length, if I don't have my right glasses with me. And my vision is completely "normal" for my age.
* Just over 15% of the adult U.S. population has difficulty hearing. This includes nearly 50% of the population age 60-69 and well over 50% of the population above the age of 70.
* 12.8% of U.S. adults have some level of serious cognition difficulty. Again this rises to the majority of the population by age 70.
* A significant percentage of the population has some form of executive cognitive function deficit - for example, 1/3 of individuals over the age of 60 have moderate executive impairment, while 1/6 had moderate to severe impairment. These impairments affect a percentage of the younger population as well, though it is difficult to find exact numbers.
* 6.5 million people in the United States, around 2%, have an intellectual disability - meaning something like Down's Syndrome or some other specific cognitive impairment that results in a low IQ score.
* A significant portion of the population has some form of fine or gross motor disability that might impair their ability to use any or all of the systems involved in self-checkout. Keep in mind that not all such impairments (in fact I would venture to say most such impairments) are not very visible to the casual bystander.
So that is just a start at such a list, and listing only the most commonly seen types of disabilities - not even getting into anything rarely seen or unusual.
Of course, if you are the person lucky enough to have none of these issues at the moment, you're living your life and wondering, "WTF is wrong with everyone else in the world? They're so slow and well, you know, dumb!"
In fact, all those people are closer to the broad center of the spectrum of human ability than you are. If you can handle all these things with ease, you're very near the top - the real outlier here. In short, you are lucky enough, for now, to be enjoying a highly advantaged perspective and range of abilities.
But keep in mind that those of us who spend a considerable amount of our time and energy working for better accommodation for people with various forms of disabilities are trying to think of things from an altruistic viewpoint of "people out there" who need these accommodations.
Because yes, there are a millions and millions of such people and they are in literally every community across the country and the world. They are personally going to be better off and we as a society are going to be better off if these millions of people can function better and more independently in society.
But even more, we're thinking about our own future and that of every one of our friends and loved ones. Because literally everyone will experience multiple of these disabilities if they are lucky enough to live a long a full life.
And if the most technologically advanced society in the history of the earth can't manage to deal with a few everyday examples of the full spectrum of human capacity - and this is as good an example as any - I'm more than a little worried about the future of the technology and our society as a whole.
posted by flug at 2:14 PM on February 8, 2024 [22 favorites]
As I mentioned above:
So keep in mind here that the systems are being designed and built by people who are probably at the top 5% (or even 1% or 0.1%) of ability level in regards to technology, and even basics like physical dexterity, eyesight, and vision. Then it's just put out there - without any particular instructions - for the remaining 99% of the population to try to figure out as best they can.But here are just a few of the issues these systems are not designed to deal with - and that the designers & purchasers of these systems are very little aware of. Because if they had any of these issues with any degree of severity it would be extremely unlikely they would be in the job they are in.
Here a few basic facts about the general population (stats here for the U.S.):
* 21% of adults are considered functionally illiterate. Basically, they can't read at all.
* Fully 54% of U.S. adults lack proficiency in literacy. They read below the 6th grade level. Now you're trying to figure out a complicated technology system with 5th grade or below reading comprehension. Ok.
* Around 8% of the U.S. population has a serious visual impairment.
* That's not even getting into the ordinary type of visual impairment that strikes literally everyone above the age of 45 or 50 or so. Just for example, I can have the devil of a time reading a computer screen or sign or little instruction placque at just the distance of 1-2 arms length, if I don't have my right glasses with me. And my vision is completely "normal" for my age.
* Just over 15% of the adult U.S. population has difficulty hearing. This includes nearly 50% of the population age 60-69 and well over 50% of the population above the age of 70.
* 12.8% of U.S. adults have some level of serious cognition difficulty. Again this rises to the majority of the population by age 70.
* A significant percentage of the population has some form of executive cognitive function deficit - for example, 1/3 of individuals over the age of 60 have moderate executive impairment, while 1/6 had moderate to severe impairment. These impairments affect a percentage of the younger population as well, though it is difficult to find exact numbers.
* 6.5 million people in the United States, around 2%, have an intellectual disability - meaning something like Down's Syndrome or some other specific cognitive impairment that results in a low IQ score.
* A significant portion of the population has some form of fine or gross motor disability that might impair their ability to use any or all of the systems involved in self-checkout. Keep in mind that not all such impairments (in fact I would venture to say most such impairments) are not very visible to the casual bystander.
So that is just a start at such a list, and listing only the most commonly seen types of disabilities - not even getting into anything rarely seen or unusual.
Of course, if you are the person lucky enough to have none of these issues at the moment, you're living your life and wondering, "WTF is wrong with everyone else in the world? They're so slow and well, you know, dumb!"
In fact, all those people are closer to the broad center of the spectrum of human ability than you are. If you can handle all these things with ease, you're very near the top - the real outlier here. In short, you are lucky enough, for now, to be enjoying a highly advantaged perspective and range of abilities.
But keep in mind that those of us who spend a considerable amount of our time and energy working for better accommodation for people with various forms of disabilities are trying to think of things from an altruistic viewpoint of "people out there" who need these accommodations.
Because yes, there are a millions and millions of such people and they are in literally every community across the country and the world. They are personally going to be better off and we as a society are going to be better off if these millions of people can function better and more independently in society.
But even more, we're thinking about our own future and that of every one of our friends and loved ones. Because literally everyone will experience multiple of these disabilities if they are lucky enough to live a long a full life.
And if the most technologically advanced society in the history of the earth can't manage to deal with a few everyday examples of the full spectrum of human capacity - and this is as good an example as any - I'm more than a little worried about the future of the technology and our society as a whole.
posted by flug at 2:14 PM on February 8, 2024 [22 favorites]
If a retail customer has to wait 5 minutes for an alcohol purchase to be approved or fiddly-diddly problems with the bag fill area to be resolved, those are both the system operating exactly as designed and required.
That is not true. A five minute delay makes everyone miserable and greatly increases the chances that a customer will just abandon the purchase, requiring that expensive human time to put it back (or wastage in some cases, like stores that won't reshelve meat or dairy products). The ideal flow for the store is a fast moving self checkout where the consumer does the work other than a few things like alcohol where staff intervention is required. But no store sets a five minute delay as their design goal.
Let's rage against the machine but don't be silly in doing so.
posted by Candleman at 2:45 PM on February 8, 2024 [1 favorite]
That is not true. A five minute delay makes everyone miserable and greatly increases the chances that a customer will just abandon the purchase, requiring that expensive human time to put it back (or wastage in some cases, like stores that won't reshelve meat or dairy products). The ideal flow for the store is a fast moving self checkout where the consumer does the work other than a few things like alcohol where staff intervention is required. But no store sets a five minute delay as their design goal.
Let's rage against the machine but don't be silly in doing so.
posted by Candleman at 2:45 PM on February 8, 2024 [1 favorite]
> The self service checkouts are very difficult to use if you are a wheelchair user, without twisting your neck/shoulders/back into a painful pretzel
And yet by placing the counters low enough to theoretically be used by some ideally-shaped wheelchair user, they're too short for me and I have to do a weird curtsy or bend with every item.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:45 PM on February 8, 2024
And yet by placing the counters low enough to theoretically be used by some ideally-shaped wheelchair user, they're too short for me and I have to do a weird curtsy or bend with every item.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:45 PM on February 8, 2024
My local Fred Meyer (Kroger) is pretty good all in all with the self checkout, except that I keep muttering under my breath because the robot checkout lady is so. damn. bossy. It asks to be sure I have put bags on the scale, then reminds me every two or three items be sure to put stuff in the bagging area. The thing's helicopter parenting at least gives me a reason to swear under my breath. And it's usually pretty easy/accurate in its scanning. The worst part is the manufacturers...I swear there's a random barcode placement algorithm in place. At Costco most everything is on the bottom, much better.
Walmart, at least in my area, is surprisingly good at self-checkout. It always seems to assume you've put one or more bags on the scale and doesn't bother you about it. It has no problem if you need to take the bag off in the middle of the process to make room. It's even easy for me to undo a double-scan most of the time. I just wish it wasn't Walmart (but Freddy's and Walmart separately don't stock everything I want).
The most irritating thing about Walmart is that last year they put in about a thousand self-checkout lanes and left a few clerked lanes, and only the self-checkouts at either end of the Wall Of Checkstands are ever open, plus one or two of the clerked checkouts. Like most retailers, I think Walmart is seeing that self-checkout does not save labor costs, and their bean counters are even now figuring out how to finance tearing out and replacing most of the self-checkouts while finding new ways to screw their employees and customers.
posted by lhauser at 5:05 PM on February 8, 2024 [1 favorite]
Walmart, at least in my area, is surprisingly good at self-checkout. It always seems to assume you've put one or more bags on the scale and doesn't bother you about it. It has no problem if you need to take the bag off in the middle of the process to make room. It's even easy for me to undo a double-scan most of the time. I just wish it wasn't Walmart (but Freddy's and Walmart separately don't stock everything I want).
The most irritating thing about Walmart is that last year they put in about a thousand self-checkout lanes and left a few clerked lanes, and only the self-checkouts at either end of the Wall Of Checkstands are ever open, plus one or two of the clerked checkouts. Like most retailers, I think Walmart is seeing that self-checkout does not save labor costs, and their bean counters are even now figuring out how to finance tearing out and replacing most of the self-checkouts while finding new ways to screw their employees and customers.
posted by lhauser at 5:05 PM on February 8, 2024 [1 favorite]
When I have a dissociative episode at the self checkout it’s because my brain has been overwhelmed at my simmering rage at being forced to figure out a new UI when I have already endured and hour of humiliating surveillance while scuttling around an off-brand Kroger like a rat in a maze, hunting for TOMATOES, WHERE ARE THE TOMATOES AND WHY IS IT NOT THE SAME AISLE AS ALL OTHER CANNED VEGETABLES, and now I’m pagibg through the cursed machines unbearably slow menu system trying to find endive but it isn’t here, and there’s a kid throwing a tantrum behind me, and I am 30 seconds away from turning over my cart and running out screaming.
If you don’t like waiting for me the self-regulate, tell the store to hire more cashiers.
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 7:16 PM on February 8, 2024 [8 favorites]
If you don’t like waiting for me the self-regulate, tell the store to hire more cashiers.
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 7:16 PM on February 8, 2024 [8 favorites]
Paranoia, maybe, but I noticed my local grocery store makes it hard to find the conventional version of whatever produce I’m looking up using their keyword search , but somehow the organic version always pops up immediately. For example if you type in “green onion” the organic version is the only one that shows up. To find the conventional option you have to type in “onion, green”. Shady ass mfers. .
posted by flamk at 10:03 PM on February 8, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by flamk at 10:03 PM on February 8, 2024 [3 favorites]
Grocery stores at the wrong time can be super sensory overload for me, and by the time I'm at the checkout I'm completely at the end of being able to function, despite being generally good with tech and an actual math teacher irl. Try to give people a little grace here.
posted by augustimagination at 10:40 PM on February 8, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by augustimagination at 10:40 PM on February 8, 2024 [8 favorites]
Hi, it's me, I'm holding up the self-checkout queue for 3-5 minutes. You wanna know why? Because I rode a bike to the shop. And I am going to ride it home again with my shopping.
Why does that matter? Because all the types of carrier bags the machine was designed to be used with are completely useless to me. What am I supposed to do, dangle them from the handlebars?
I have with me either a backpack, or a pannier bag, or maybe both, and I need to put my shopping in them. These bags have a key property in common, which is that they weigh more than a shitty plastic carrier bag.
So now I have two options:
1) I press the "I brought my own bag" button, put my empty bag on the scale, press OK, and the machine goes "oh no silly human, this can't be a bag" and now I have to wait several minutes for the staff to come over and press the button that means "oh, huh, that actually is a bag!" for the millionth fucking time.
2) Seeing no staff in sight, I put my bags down on the floor instead, and go through the checkout process without any bags, piling all my shopping up on the scale in a highly unstable Leaning Tower of Produce which regularly falls apart. And then when this game of edible jenga is over I have to spend more time holding up the queue packing everything into the bags like I wanted to in the first place.
Which shall I choose today? Haha trick question, it doesn't matter because both will lead to the entire queue behind me tut-tutting that I should have done it differently.
And all because some fuckwit programmer hardcoded a figure he pulled out of his arse for the "maximum weight of a bag" and nobody is able to just change this number to a sensible fucking value. Why the hell does there even need to be a maximum bag weight? Just tare the damn scale and get on with it, you fucking assholes.
posted by automatronic at 11:13 PM on February 8, 2024 [5 favorites]
Why does that matter? Because all the types of carrier bags the machine was designed to be used with are completely useless to me. What am I supposed to do, dangle them from the handlebars?
I have with me either a backpack, or a pannier bag, or maybe both, and I need to put my shopping in them. These bags have a key property in common, which is that they weigh more than a shitty plastic carrier bag.
So now I have two options:
1) I press the "I brought my own bag" button, put my empty bag on the scale, press OK, and the machine goes "oh no silly human, this can't be a bag" and now I have to wait several minutes for the staff to come over and press the button that means "oh, huh, that actually is a bag!" for the millionth fucking time.
2) Seeing no staff in sight, I put my bags down on the floor instead, and go through the checkout process without any bags, piling all my shopping up on the scale in a highly unstable Leaning Tower of Produce which regularly falls apart. And then when this game of edible jenga is over I have to spend more time holding up the queue packing everything into the bags like I wanted to in the first place.
Which shall I choose today? Haha trick question, it doesn't matter because both will lead to the entire queue behind me tut-tutting that I should have done it differently.
And all because some fuckwit programmer hardcoded a figure he pulled out of his arse for the "maximum weight of a bag" and nobody is able to just change this number to a sensible fucking value. Why the hell does there even need to be a maximum bag weight? Just tare the damn scale and get on with it, you fucking assholes.
posted by automatronic at 11:13 PM on February 8, 2024 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Apologies for starting my question with Why, it should've been a How; I didn't mean to come off as an ableist. Since I'm retired, waiting in a slow-moving line isn't the potential schedule-disrupter it used to be, but like at the ATM, I'm just curious about what's going on up there.
As I avoid tracking and insist on paying cash whenever possible, I too have felt the psychic wrath from folks behind me, as I try to get the machine to accept my last twenty-dollar bill (STFU whipper-snapper, I've been feeding currency into change- and vending machines since way before you were even born, this is not a new skill for me). Sounds like I'm blessed with forgiving scales at my local, the thing about their arrangement that cheeses me off is ⅔ of the self-checkouts are (Debit) Card Only, and often some of the Cash check-outs are Out of Order.
Part of the debate in the previous Ask was if these lanes are Express. At the one I frequent the Cash lane has signs insisting on 15 items or less, a restriction frequently ignored and hardly ever enforced. And if they're removing ALL the human checkers, what else are you going to do?
Thanks for all the responses, especially that further reading link in armoir from antproof case's comment.
posted by Rash at 9:21 AM on February 9, 2024 [2 favorites]
As I avoid tracking and insist on paying cash whenever possible, I too have felt the psychic wrath from folks behind me, as I try to get the machine to accept my last twenty-dollar bill (STFU whipper-snapper, I've been feeding currency into change- and vending machines since way before you were even born, this is not a new skill for me). Sounds like I'm blessed with forgiving scales at my local, the thing about their arrangement that cheeses me off is ⅔ of the self-checkouts are (Debit) Card Only, and often some of the Cash check-outs are Out of Order.
Part of the debate in the previous Ask was if these lanes are Express. At the one I frequent the Cash lane has signs insisting on 15 items or less, a restriction frequently ignored and hardly ever enforced. And if they're removing ALL the human checkers, what else are you going to do?
Thanks for all the responses, especially that further reading link in armoir from antproof case's comment.
posted by Rash at 9:21 AM on February 9, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'm really surprised by some of these answers - I had to keep checking the date to make sure this wasn't a question from 10 years ago. My experiences in the last few years have been that self-checkout is finally what we'd hoped it would be in the beginning. Granted I pretty much only shop at Walmart, but 1. there's never a line, at least for the card-only (no cash payment) lanes, and 2. the "bagging area" issues don't seem to happen anymore. I can scan like a real cashier by doing things like scanning one item multiple times (buy 3 pizzas = scan 1 pizza 3 times then just put them all in the bag) and using both hands to scan two items at the same time before bagging. Also you can take your filled bags out of the bagging area and put them back in your cart *before* you finish checking out which used to cause a robot temper tantrum, so that's pretty nice. It sounds like the technology still isn't great in a lot of places, so if I ever end up there, I'll probably take extra time too, trying to remember the "old" rules from years past. Let's not forget that being a cashier is an actual job that would come with actual training, but somehow corporations expect us to just automatically know how to do it... and also expect us to do it for free. So there's that.
posted by storminator7 at 8:19 PM on February 9, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by storminator7 at 8:19 PM on February 9, 2024 [1 favorite]
Mod note: A couple deleted. Even though the post is framed in a sort of chatfilter-y style, Ask Metafilter isn't for chat and general discussion, so let's focus on the actual question of why customers have trouble using the self-checkout. Thanks!
posted by taz (staff) at 2:00 AM on February 11, 2024
posted by taz (staff) at 2:00 AM on February 11, 2024
Thanks to the people who've mentioned eyesight. I have had two eye surgeries recently and now one eye kind of goes in and out and it has really fucked with my ability to figure things out spatially. (By the way, I almost certainly appear to be "normal." I am just having to give myself time to process.) If a self-checkout portal setup is new to me at all, it feels like I'm having not just visual but cognitive difficulties too. So what I do is when faced with any kind of self-serve technology, I take a breath and look at the setup and make sure I understand it before starting. I am probably saving time in the long run, to judge from the number of people who have something unexpected happen and then have to call for help, which is slow and scarce. But hey, it's extra nice to know there are people behind me judging me!
posted by BibiRose at 6:06 AM on February 11, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 6:06 AM on February 11, 2024 [2 favorites]
Here in Australia you can have card-only machines that also take gift cards. However, during payment time, some of them default to credit/debit cards and it's a bit of a process to get back to the screen to use a gift card. The gift cards here require a PIN that's a scratch off so that can take time too. Also sometimes the tap feature doesn't work so well (especially if you're trying to use your phone to pay) so you then have to drag out your physical card and pay that way.
posted by creatrixtiara at 8:44 PM on February 12, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by creatrixtiara at 8:44 PM on February 12, 2024 [1 favorite]
For a long time at my local store, the most common issues were scale-related (having to wait for the machine to register the weight of every. single. item in the bagging area) and payment-related (the UI required you to press a button on-screen after swiping a card to process it). Thankfully they finally disabled the weight requirement and updated the software so that it automatically processes a card once swiped. At this point the biggest hold-ups I see are:
- needing to be ID'd for alcohol, gift cards, etc.
- voiding an item and needing approval from the minder
- getting confused over how to look up produce without a bar code or sticker
- not understanding whether a particular sale or digital coupon worked, or why it didn't if not
- payment issues (expired card, worn-out chip/strip, wrong payment type for the machine, Doordash/Instacart shoppers having issues with the app, etc.)
I also imagine that if you don't shop at the same store regularly, it could take a few moments to figure out the interface if you're not familiar with it.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:56 PM on March 15, 2024
- needing to be ID'd for alcohol, gift cards, etc.
- voiding an item and needing approval from the minder
- getting confused over how to look up produce without a bar code or sticker
- not understanding whether a particular sale or digital coupon worked, or why it didn't if not
- payment issues (expired card, worn-out chip/strip, wrong payment type for the machine, Doordash/Instacart shoppers having issues with the app, etc.)
I also imagine that if you don't shop at the same store regularly, it could take a few moments to figure out the interface if you're not familiar with it.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:56 PM on March 15, 2024
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posted by armoir from antproof case at 5:50 PM on February 7, 2024 [46 favorites]