Does this statement symbolize racism?
January 17, 2024 8:37 PM Subscribe
Pardon me Dear Metafites and forgive me in advance if this question offends. This is a troubling interaction I just had with my primary care physician following a previously posted about hospital stay. (Details to follow)
I've first got to lead in with these facts 1)until this interaction I adored my doctor. I've had her for almost 10 years 2)she has never expressed anything resembling bias before 3)I am a non-white
My email was regarding her signing off on my return to work after having been gone for medical issues for a month. I mentioned that I had two jobs previously, one is my full time job I've had 15 years and the other was a part time vending machine job. In her email back she said "tell me what you mean by vending machine company. The urban dictionary lists this as selling yourself for money". I took this as offensive and racist but dont know how to approach the situation. Do you have any other opinions?
I live in the midwest and personally dont speak in slang or jargon specific to "urban" culture plus I've always known what a vending machine was so assumed that she did too. Was it impolite of her to reference the urban dictionary as well as make such a crass generalization in such a glib fashion? Why am I offended so much by this?
I've first got to lead in with these facts 1)until this interaction I adored my doctor. I've had her for almost 10 years 2)she has never expressed anything resembling bias before 3)I am a non-white
My email was regarding her signing off on my return to work after having been gone for medical issues for a month. I mentioned that I had two jobs previously, one is my full time job I've had 15 years and the other was a part time vending machine job. In her email back she said "tell me what you mean by vending machine company. The urban dictionary lists this as selling yourself for money". I took this as offensive and racist but dont know how to approach the situation. Do you have any other opinions?
I live in the midwest and personally dont speak in slang or jargon specific to "urban" culture plus I've always known what a vending machine was so assumed that she did too. Was it impolite of her to reference the urban dictionary as well as make such a crass generalization in such a glib fashion? Why am I offended so much by this?
CIS white lady, who has never had a doctor suggest that I "sell myself for money," despite many frank conversations and questions about my sexual health. Make of that what you will.
posted by brookeb at 8:57 PM on January 17 [6 favorites]
posted by brookeb at 8:57 PM on January 17 [6 favorites]
you're offended because without a LOT of carefully couched context about this, it's offensive!
GP/PCPs should check in with patients who are sex workers in a thoughtful way because there are job-related health risks and with the stigma about sex work, people do use euphemisms. But that's a HUGE stretch from you listing a part-time job in an email. That's the kind of thing you bring up in a face-to-face conversation and do so with sensitivity.
She's known you for a decade and you wrote it as a straightforward email. Racist and thoughtless - has she previously done things that in hindsight now you can see indicate this, or is it a sudden change? If it's a sudden change, I would directly bring it up in an email now - a good PCP would be horrified and try to repair the relationship or recommend a different doctor. If they respond dismissively or defensively - new PCP now, this is someone you need to trust.
BTW, when I have to write an angry email now, I write it out as angry as I like then tell chatgpt to rewrite it in a neutral, firm and concise tone. It lets me vent and get my points across.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:58 PM on January 17 [7 favorites]
GP/PCPs should check in with patients who are sex workers in a thoughtful way because there are job-related health risks and with the stigma about sex work, people do use euphemisms. But that's a HUGE stretch from you listing a part-time job in an email. That's the kind of thing you bring up in a face-to-face conversation and do so with sensitivity.
She's known you for a decade and you wrote it as a straightforward email. Racist and thoughtless - has she previously done things that in hindsight now you can see indicate this, or is it a sudden change? If it's a sudden change, I would directly bring it up in an email now - a good PCP would be horrified and try to repair the relationship or recommend a different doctor. If they respond dismissively or defensively - new PCP now, this is someone you need to trust.
BTW, when I have to write an angry email now, I write it out as angry as I like then tell chatgpt to rewrite it in a neutral, firm and concise tone. It lets me vent and get my points across.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:58 PM on January 17 [7 favorites]
Was it impolite of her to reference the urban dictionary as well as make such a crass generalization in such a glib fashion?
Massively. Also clueless to an extent that challenges my personal comprehension.
Why am I offended so much by this?
Because you've just been straight-up asked if you're a sex worker in terms that demean sex workers.
"Selling yourself for money"? Really? In 2024? From your doctor?
Fuck's sake. If that were my doctor, I'd be asking them whether they always email patients while blackout drunk.
posted by flabdablet at 9:03 PM on January 17 [22 favorites]
Massively. Also clueless to an extent that challenges my personal comprehension.
Why am I offended so much by this?
Because you've just been straight-up asked if you're a sex worker in terms that demean sex workers.
"Selling yourself for money"? Really? In 2024? From your doctor?
Fuck's sake. If that were my doctor, I'd be asking them whether they always email patients while blackout drunk.
posted by flabdablet at 9:03 PM on January 17 [22 favorites]
White person here. It didn't read as racist to me, necessarily (but I am, again, a white person so that may be my blind spot speaking!); it just read as straight up offensive on many other levels, which have already been mentioned by others. I'm really sorry this happened to you and I can't imagine how you must be feeling right now.
I took this as offensive and racist but dont know how to approach the situation
Get a new primary care physician ASAP. That's what I'd do, anyway. Don't spend any more of your time or energy, much less entrust your health, with this person. Don't even engage with them to try to explain what the problem is here; just get a new doctor.
posted by pdb at 9:10 PM on January 17 [8 favorites]
I took this as offensive and racist but dont know how to approach the situation
Get a new primary care physician ASAP. That's what I'd do, anyway. Don't spend any more of your time or energy, much less entrust your health, with this person. Don't even engage with them to try to explain what the problem is here; just get a new doctor.
posted by pdb at 9:10 PM on January 17 [8 favorites]
Yeah another white lady here who has been open with my docs about my multiple and noncommittal history of sex partners and has also talked about doing temp work and never in my life have any of them implied I may have had sex for money. What an absolute shit. I'm sorry a doctor you trusted has betrayed you in this way.
I would respond, "I stock soda machines. [Or whatever role.] Since the urban dictionary isn't a medical text I'm not sure what relevance it has to my medical leave, so I will ask you again to please complete my paperwork so I can have clearance to return to work."
Then I would blast her ass to her hospital system and the board. Take screenshots of everything because this is so beyond the pale of what's appropriate people may not believe it until they see it themselves.
posted by phunniemee at 9:17 PM on January 17 [15 favorites]
I would respond, "I stock soda machines. [Or whatever role.] Since the urban dictionary isn't a medical text I'm not sure what relevance it has to my medical leave, so I will ask you again to please complete my paperwork so I can have clearance to return to work."
Then I would blast her ass to her hospital system and the board. Take screenshots of everything because this is so beyond the pale of what's appropriate people may not believe it until they see it themselves.
posted by phunniemee at 9:17 PM on January 17 [15 favorites]
If someone said "urban dictionary" to me I'd assume they are talking about the website urbandictionary.com. Which, despite the name, is not so much coded towards Black slang as just slang in general. Perhaps she assumed that "vending machine job" was a slang term rather than literal term.
That said, I have no idea why she would respond the way she did. It seems weird, unprofessional, nosy, rude, and anti-sex-worker.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:19 PM on January 17 [26 favorites]
That said, I have no idea why she would respond the way she did. It seems weird, unprofessional, nosy, rude, and anti-sex-worker.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:19 PM on January 17 [26 favorites]
WTF?! This is 100% offensive and racist. In the _most_ charitable read, she made an extremely racist assumption that she might need to run your job description through the urban dictionary (!) and then was trying to reach out to ascertain if you were a sex worker so she could make sure to suggest health services (STD testing, etc.) that would benefit you, but it doesn't sound like she even was doing that, awful as it would be.
I think you should get a new PCP. You have no obligation to do so, but for the good of others this doctor may deal with (and, since there is maybe a finite possibility that whoever answers her emails is not her) I'd be inclined to call or email her with a "good grief, what on earth were you thinking?!"
[background - I am an off-white person who grew up in the Midwest, where everyone thought I was "a foreigner"]
posted by LadyOscar at 9:20 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
I think you should get a new PCP. You have no obligation to do so, but for the good of others this doctor may deal with (and, since there is maybe a finite possibility that whoever answers her emails is not her) I'd be inclined to call or email her with a "good grief, what on earth were you thinking?!"
[background - I am an off-white person who grew up in the Midwest, where everyone thought I was "a foreigner"]
posted by LadyOscar at 9:20 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
I have worked doing mental health intakes, which include taking a substance use history. I often ended up having to google things clients said because I'm a square and don't know drug slang, and I needed to translate the terms they used to terms that would fit on the standardized form. So if she was confused about a term it seems reasonable to look it up. But it doesn't seem reasonable that she would assume you meant a derogatory term for sex worker rather than just the standard definition of the term "vending machine," especially if she's known you for ten years, or that she'd go with Urban Dictionary over just regular search results. And I can't believe she'd need to search for the term unless she was a fairly newly arrived non-native English speaker, and she's been your doctor for ten years, so that's out.
It's bizarre that she needed to look it up, and it's bizarre that she'd jump to that conclusion from looking it up. Race is always at play in these interactions so presumably race was in play in her conclusion.
I'd probably respond to her with something along the lines of, "I meant I worked for a company that made vending machines, the machines that sell candy and snacks. I don't know why you would assume that's slang," and just get the paperwork you need for now. I would also look for a new doctor.
posted by lapis at 9:31 PM on January 17 [5 favorites]
It's bizarre that she needed to look it up, and it's bizarre that she'd jump to that conclusion from looking it up. Race is always at play in these interactions so presumably race was in play in her conclusion.
I'd probably respond to her with something along the lines of, "I meant I worked for a company that made vending machines, the machines that sell candy and snacks. I don't know why you would assume that's slang," and just get the paperwork you need for now. I would also look for a new doctor.
posted by lapis at 9:31 PM on January 17 [5 favorites]
I'm also trying to re-create how she would have found that definition, and urban dictionary is not coming up on the first page of my google results for "vending machine," "vending machine company," or "vending machine job." When I go to the site itself, sex worker is the fifth definition listed, after several definitions that are about actual vending machines. She had to work hard to find that definition.
posted by lapis at 9:38 PM on January 17 [39 favorites]
posted by lapis at 9:38 PM on January 17 [39 favorites]
Just to validate why you would find this offensive. I just googled "vending machine job" and a list of jobs stocking vending machines came up, not the urban dictionary definition. I also got a description of what one does with that job - stock vending machines. There is no way she could have been confused about this.
posted by Toddles at 9:39 PM on January 17 [10 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 9:39 PM on January 17 [10 favorites]
Wow, no, that is a really wild conclusion for her to jump to! When I read "vending machine job" I instantly assumed something along the lines of restocking, repair, account management, delivery/moving, etc. So many things jumped to mind before sex work (and not that there's anything wrong with it).
posted by smirkette at 9:50 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
posted by smirkette at 9:50 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
White guy here. 100% Disagree with the recommendations to escalate the encounter with formal written complaint, etc., and/or assume racism intentions. Although that comment by the doctor was uncalled for, (and in truth, possibly related to race even if only derivatively), if she’s given you good care in the past and you feel you can trust/work with her going forward, consider communicating to her how her unprofessional comment made you feel and what you would expect going forward (chat gpt and/or trusted friend as sanity check prior to doing that is a very good suggestion.). I personally prefer the in-person discussion however since it can help avoid compounding any misunderstanding and is more personal.
If you are uncomfortable seeing this doctor further, perhaps explain politely how her comment made you feel and that you are seeking another doc for that reason (you could even mention your racism concern.). That would enable her to both respond with her apology and/or clarification of her intent, as well as give her the oppportunity to learn from her mistake, benefiting her practice and treatment of third parties, and would allow you to move on to another doctor who makes you feel more comfortable. Or maybe the conversation would put your mind at ease and allow the relationship to continue. Again, chat gpt/friend prior to firing off the email, and in-person convo seems more conducive to unguarded and honest communication.
Doctors are people too (as with any other type of person, they have their flaws). If a doctor gives me good medical advice and we can communicate effectively (I.e., if they listen and respond to my concerns), I don’t worry too much whether they’re judging me (I’m sure they do—that’s kind of part of the job).
posted by rub scupper cult at 10:11 PM on January 17 [12 favorites]
If you are uncomfortable seeing this doctor further, perhaps explain politely how her comment made you feel and that you are seeking another doc for that reason (you could even mention your racism concern.). That would enable her to both respond with her apology and/or clarification of her intent, as well as give her the oppportunity to learn from her mistake, benefiting her practice and treatment of third parties, and would allow you to move on to another doctor who makes you feel more comfortable. Or maybe the conversation would put your mind at ease and allow the relationship to continue. Again, chat gpt/friend prior to firing off the email, and in-person convo seems more conducive to unguarded and honest communication.
Doctors are people too (as with any other type of person, they have their flaws). If a doctor gives me good medical advice and we can communicate effectively (I.e., if they listen and respond to my concerns), I don’t worry too much whether they’re judging me (I’m sure they do—that’s kind of part of the job).
posted by rub scupper cult at 10:11 PM on January 17 [12 favorites]
I'd agree that it was wildly inappropriate. But if you've loved her work for the past ten years, I might consider giving her one chance to apologize profusely.
Tell her you were offended, and if she doesn't apologize vigorously, then look for another doctor. (If she does, then she's still on probabation, and see how it goes from there - she should be bending over backwards to make things right after this.)
I only say this because finding a good doctor isn't that easy.
OTOH if you're going to be uncomfortable with her from now on, then definitely look for another doctor right away.
posted by Umami Dearest at 10:17 PM on January 17 [13 favorites]
Tell her you were offended, and if she doesn't apologize vigorously, then look for another doctor. (If she does, then she's still on probabation, and see how it goes from there - she should be bending over backwards to make things right after this.)
I only say this because finding a good doctor isn't that easy.
OTOH if you're going to be uncomfortable with her from now on, then definitely look for another doctor right away.
posted by Umami Dearest at 10:17 PM on January 17 [13 favorites]
Inappropriate, but I think it's highly likely that this is a attempt at a joke. As in "I'm clueless, haha, and I don't know what this job is, urban dictionary. com says it's sex work isn't that ridiculous! So what is it really?"
I've come across people referring to urban dictionary in that way, as a kind of "I'm a clueless old" meme.
Still might be unacceptable to you as its unprofessional and confusing.
posted by Zumbador at 1:27 AM on January 18 [20 favorites]
I've come across people referring to urban dictionary in that way, as a kind of "I'm a clueless old" meme.
Still might be unacceptable to you as its unprofessional and confusing.
posted by Zumbador at 1:27 AM on January 18 [20 favorites]
Googling 'vending machine slang' did get me 'prostitute' as a very first result, pretty much the first word. It was indeed from urban dictionary. I don't think the site is racist, more like to look up which unusual sex act the Internet kids have made up.
If she's gone so long without any signs of bias, this seems like a very large outlier to me (a white person.) So potentially not racist, just very dumb and I'd be offended myself, even though I do fit in demographics that lean towards prostitution as a survival mechanism sometimes. I am also used to highly intelligent people making very dumb and interpersonally insensitive remarks like that.
Potentially worth a conversation, especially if you have complicated medical needs. At best it was well meaning and utterly clueless rude. Also+1 that my doctor doesn't answer all her emails personally. So not inherently unsalvageable in my opinion, but yes rude and out of character and upsetting
posted by Jacen at 1:55 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
If she's gone so long without any signs of bias, this seems like a very large outlier to me (a white person.) So potentially not racist, just very dumb and I'd be offended myself, even though I do fit in demographics that lean towards prostitution as a survival mechanism sometimes. I am also used to highly intelligent people making very dumb and interpersonally insensitive remarks like that.
Potentially worth a conversation, especially if you have complicated medical needs. At best it was well meaning and utterly clueless rude. Also+1 that my doctor doesn't answer all her emails personally. So not inherently unsalvageable in my opinion, but yes rude and out of character and upsetting
posted by Jacen at 1:55 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
Given your facts 1 and 2, this is very weird. I'd wonder if the medical practice is using ChatGPT for patient communications - lots of articles about them using it to write medical notes. In any case, a doctor you adore and have a long history with is worth having a conversation about it with.
posted by evilmomlady at 3:10 AM on January 18 [9 favorites]
posted by evilmomlady at 3:10 AM on January 18 [9 favorites]
White guy here.
I completely understand the offence and people's reaction. However, I would not make the assumption that they looked it up on the Urban Dictionary but rather that that was information that they already possessed and were pointing out the source in case you were not familiar with it.
Next, I suspect many more doctors these days have patients who are sex workers and that some doctors may have a nonchalance or la ze faire attitude about it and the query was just to be certain that she was on top of her job and checking everything she should be checking.
If you give the benefit of the doubt then the person, to my mind, comes across as casual and thoughtful rather than nosey and offensive or racist.
I would suspect that if you were to point out the offence to them that they will be mortified and would suggest you base your decision on how to proceed on that reaction rather than your current assumption.
Lastly, I was unfamiliar with the euphemism vending machine worker for sex worker and when I read your question, I immediately thought, "Vending Machine job?! What does that mean?" Even though, I am, of course, familiar with vending machines. What's odd to me about your description is how non-specific it is. Reading through all the answers and typing up my own I still don't know what it is. You stock vending machines? You sell vending machines? You build vending machines? I'm sure many reading that may think "WTF? Why does it matter? What would make someone ask for specifics?!" The answer in my case is simple: curiosity. For a doctor, each of those jobs would affect a patient differently and the answers would allow them to do their own job better. This is especially relevant because you were seeking "permission" to return to the activity. To what, your doctor may have wondered, am I green-lighting a return to?
Personally, if you love your doctor, I think it would be a mistake to find a new one over this without, at the very least, seeking clarification. Even if I'm completely wrong and they did head to the Urban Dictionary after getting your email, it's possible your pointing out the offence will make them aware of how wrong it was and allow them to reflect on it. You may not owe them that grace. That decision is up to you.
posted by dobbs at 3:15 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
I completely understand the offence and people's reaction. However, I would not make the assumption that they looked it up on the Urban Dictionary but rather that that was information that they already possessed and were pointing out the source in case you were not familiar with it.
Next, I suspect many more doctors these days have patients who are sex workers and that some doctors may have a nonchalance or la ze faire attitude about it and the query was just to be certain that she was on top of her job and checking everything she should be checking.
If you give the benefit of the doubt then the person, to my mind, comes across as casual and thoughtful rather than nosey and offensive or racist.
I would suspect that if you were to point out the offence to them that they will be mortified and would suggest you base your decision on how to proceed on that reaction rather than your current assumption.
Lastly, I was unfamiliar with the euphemism vending machine worker for sex worker and when I read your question, I immediately thought, "Vending Machine job?! What does that mean?" Even though, I am, of course, familiar with vending machines. What's odd to me about your description is how non-specific it is. Reading through all the answers and typing up my own I still don't know what it is. You stock vending machines? You sell vending machines? You build vending machines? I'm sure many reading that may think "WTF? Why does it matter? What would make someone ask for specifics?!" The answer in my case is simple: curiosity. For a doctor, each of those jobs would affect a patient differently and the answers would allow them to do their own job better. This is especially relevant because you were seeking "permission" to return to the activity. To what, your doctor may have wondered, am I green-lighting a return to?
Personally, if you love your doctor, I think it would be a mistake to find a new one over this without, at the very least, seeking clarification. Even if I'm completely wrong and they did head to the Urban Dictionary after getting your email, it's possible your pointing out the offence will make them aware of how wrong it was and allow them to reflect on it. You may not owe them that grace. That decision is up to you.
posted by dobbs at 3:15 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
I don't think I've ever had the phrase "I beg your pardon?!" come to mind so directly.
I would say that, and "Please explain this bizarre, offensive, and irrelevant email, which I am struggling to find an explanation for."
And decide what to do based on her response.
But unless it turns out her computer was hijacked by an asshole teenager or something, I would strongly question her judgment, sensitivity, and yes, bias.
Even if she truly felt it important with respect to your health to investigate the possibility of sex work, and truly would have asked this of any of her patients regardless of ethnicity, gender, or age - why would she think it was appropriate to inquire in this way instead of just asking you to describe both jobs briefly, why would it need to be done over email and not at your next appointment, and why would she use such crass and deeply insensitive phrasing if she really did believe you were engaged in an occupation generally associated both with disrespect and vulnerability?
posted by trig at 3:40 AM on January 18 [15 favorites]
I would say that, and "Please explain this bizarre, offensive, and irrelevant email, which I am struggling to find an explanation for."
And decide what to do based on her response.
But unless it turns out her computer was hijacked by an asshole teenager or something, I would strongly question her judgment, sensitivity, and yes, bias.
Even if she truly felt it important with respect to your health to investigate the possibility of sex work, and truly would have asked this of any of her patients regardless of ethnicity, gender, or age - why would she think it was appropriate to inquire in this way instead of just asking you to describe both jobs briefly, why would it need to be done over email and not at your next appointment, and why would she use such crass and deeply insensitive phrasing if she really did believe you were engaged in an occupation generally associated both with disrespect and vulnerability?
posted by trig at 3:40 AM on January 18 [15 favorites]
I would echo that this is racist and offensive. Could you ever feel that you could trust this person again? If not, then it’s time to move on and find a new physician - you shouldn’t have to have this horrendous exchange at the back of your mind when you interact with her.
Also, please could all the white people saying that they don’t think it’s racist just STOP.
posted by JJZByBffqU at 4:02 AM on January 18 [34 favorites]
Also, please could all the white people saying that they don’t think it’s racist just STOP.
posted by JJZByBffqU at 4:02 AM on January 18 [34 favorites]
Vending machines: present in just about all public spaces where people have to 1/ wait for a service or 2/ find somewhere to relax a little while having to stay in a public space.
Vending machine technician: person whose job is to restock and clean the vending machine during the working day. Someone very familiar to people who have to wait about in public spaces. I mean, some people simply don't notice people visibly at work in public spaces I guess.
Who doesn't know about vending machines? Does anyone think they are restocked and maintained by magic?
If she didn't recognise the job description why didn't she ask you what it meant? Why immediately not just jump to such an unlikely conclusion but have the temerity to suggest it to you with such a very misogynistic and purposefully degrading metaphor? Sex work is work but it does have a stigma for many people and I can't imagine asking such a question in such a way except from a place of overwhelming bias. This woman has been your doctor for 10 years, by your account you've been happy with the communications between you till now; apparently something different was happening on her side.
I'm so sorry this happened to you, in your place I'd be flabberghasted and really wounded, and rethinking previous interactions with this woman. It is deeply hurtful to come across latent racism from a trusted person, and it brings a realisation that probably what seemed like safe space was the opposite. It is very, very destabilising.
In the UK as well as the US health outcomes for Black people under medical care are worse across the board, sometimes fatally so. From memory, because I'm not going to look for references now, physician bias is a major cause: not noticing symptoms, minimising issues such as pain, not listening to patients, and just plain racist bias leading to inferior care generally as well as to jumping to incorrect conclusions in diagnosis. Since this subject is in the news right now it should be easy enough to find articles about it in serious newspapers.
Again, I'm so sorry this happened to you, and I hope you can arrive at some action that brings you support and also satisfaction.
posted by glasseyes at 5:09 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
Vending machine technician: person whose job is to restock and clean the vending machine during the working day. Someone very familiar to people who have to wait about in public spaces. I mean, some people simply don't notice people visibly at work in public spaces I guess.
Who doesn't know about vending machines? Does anyone think they are restocked and maintained by magic?
If she didn't recognise the job description why didn't she ask you what it meant? Why immediately not just jump to such an unlikely conclusion but have the temerity to suggest it to you with such a very misogynistic and purposefully degrading metaphor? Sex work is work but it does have a stigma for many people and I can't imagine asking such a question in such a way except from a place of overwhelming bias. This woman has been your doctor for 10 years, by your account you've been happy with the communications between you till now; apparently something different was happening on her side.
I'm so sorry this happened to you, in your place I'd be flabberghasted and really wounded, and rethinking previous interactions with this woman. It is deeply hurtful to come across latent racism from a trusted person, and it brings a realisation that probably what seemed like safe space was the opposite. It is very, very destabilising.
In the UK as well as the US health outcomes for Black people under medical care are worse across the board, sometimes fatally so. From memory, because I'm not going to look for references now, physician bias is a major cause: not noticing symptoms, minimising issues such as pain, not listening to patients, and just plain racist bias leading to inferior care generally as well as to jumping to incorrect conclusions in diagnosis. Since this subject is in the news right now it should be easy enough to find articles about it in serious newspapers.
Again, I'm so sorry this happened to you, and I hope you can arrive at some action that brings you support and also satisfaction.
posted by glasseyes at 5:09 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
Oh god, what a nightmare. If this had happened to me (a white woman with close relatives who are doctors and nurse practitioners), and I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt (which I would be torn about, because it's really quite bizarre, even if it wouldn't be commentary on my race), then I would assume she had just attended a training on being more inclusive re: sex work, and that this training explicitly mentioned Urban Dictionary as a helpful tool, and now "everything looks like a nail." Or that she was being "old funny" as other commenters have mentioned, or honestly that she was intoxicated or having a stroke. I realize you are not a white woman, so I'm just throwing these potential explanations out there, in case they seem plausible enough for you to give her a second chance *and* you're borderline inclined to do so. You definitely don't have to, though. It's very weird.
posted by unknowncommand at 5:12 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
posted by unknowncommand at 5:12 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
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Talk to your doctor about this. Despite what everyone thinks communication is hard and misunderstandings are really easy. There is absolutely no way for you to know what was meant except to ask her.
Stop trying to read her mind, you can't. Do the adult thing and have a conversation with her.
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posted by Awfki at 5:21 AM on January 18 [15 favorites]
Talk to your doctor about this. Despite what everyone thinks communication is hard and misunderstandings are really easy. There is absolutely no way for you to know what was meant except to ask her.
Stop trying to read her mind, you can't. Do the adult thing and have a conversation with her.
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posted by Awfki at 5:21 AM on January 18 [15 favorites]
It's absolutely inappropriate, whether or not it was specifically racist. If you were a sex worker, yes, that would be useful for her to know to provide you with good medical care, but this wouldn't have been the way to broach that subject. (On several levels - both her wording, and choosing to have that discussion in writing knowing it might be something that, if it were true, would be a lot more sensitive and private to discuss in person.)
I don't know whether it's enough to switch doctors over. I think you could very reasonably decide to do so, but god knows finding a good new PCP is the worst. If you've had an excellent relationship with her for ten years, this might be a "talk to her about it, consider her response carefully, and consider giving her one more chance if she responds in a way that indicates she understands what went wrong here and is going to work to do better" situation.
I'm sorry you had this experience - you deserve better from your medical providers.
posted by Stacey at 5:35 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
I don't know whether it's enough to switch doctors over. I think you could very reasonably decide to do so, but god knows finding a good new PCP is the worst. If you've had an excellent relationship with her for ten years, this might be a "talk to her about it, consider her response carefully, and consider giving her one more chance if she responds in a way that indicates she understands what went wrong here and is going to work to do better" situation.
I'm sorry you had this experience - you deserve better from your medical providers.
posted by Stacey at 5:35 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Even if you were a sex worker, this was offensive and inappropriate.
If she thought you were doing sex work, she could have said "I have heard that that is sometimes slang for doing sex work. Are you doing sex work? Would you be open to talking about the type of work that you are doing, and your safer sex practices?"
"Selling yourself for money" is NEVER an okay way to talk about sex work - sex workers are paid for their time and services in the same way that a massage therapist or a psychologist are paid for their time and services - money does not BUY the sex worker.
Source: I have never done sex work myself, but I have read a lot of books and essays by current and former sex workers, and seen campaigns around legalising and destigmatising sex work.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:38 AM on January 18 [16 favorites]
If she thought you were doing sex work, she could have said "I have heard that that is sometimes slang for doing sex work. Are you doing sex work? Would you be open to talking about the type of work that you are doing, and your safer sex practices?"
"Selling yourself for money" is NEVER an okay way to talk about sex work - sex workers are paid for their time and services in the same way that a massage therapist or a psychologist are paid for their time and services - money does not BUY the sex worker.
Source: I have never done sex work myself, but I have read a lot of books and essays by current and former sex workers, and seen campaigns around legalising and destigmatising sex work.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:38 AM on January 18 [16 favorites]
If she needed clarification about what your job at the vending machine company was, she could and should have asked you very simply what your role was or for more information, sans speculation. Yes to the role of racism here: if this were a white patient it is very unlikely that she would have assumed this was slang or that it was in any way likely that in this context you would be casually dropping in a reference to sex work that you had not disclosed in the decade you'd been her patient and that you were doing on top of a full-time job. For me, her use of the phrase "sell yourself for money" is gross and unprofessional--suppose you were a sex worker?!--and if the racism didn't do it that would have me looking for a new doctor.
I would get the note you need and then go from there. You're the only one who can decide whether it's worth it to stick with her but if you do you're under no obligation to have a polite discussion with her about this- in my experience suggestions along these lines are often coming from people who have not felt the cumulative weight of these kinds of micro-and-larger-aggressions, and you should disregard along with any notion that you are less reasonable or 'adult' for choosing not to engage or extend the benefit of the doubt.
posted by wormtales at 5:42 AM on January 18 [9 favorites]
I would get the note you need and then go from there. You're the only one who can decide whether it's worth it to stick with her but if you do you're under no obligation to have a polite discussion with her about this- in my experience suggestions along these lines are often coming from people who have not felt the cumulative weight of these kinds of micro-and-larger-aggressions, and you should disregard along with any notion that you are less reasonable or 'adult' for choosing not to engage or extend the benefit of the doubt.
posted by wormtales at 5:42 AM on January 18 [9 favorites]
Also, please could all the white people saying that they don’t think it’s racist just STOP.
It is literally what the OP is asking for opinions on. It's the title of the question.
posted by dobbs at 5:43 AM on January 18 [19 favorites]
It is literally what the OP is asking for opinions on. It's the title of the question.
posted by dobbs at 5:43 AM on January 18 [19 favorites]
Stop trying to read her mind, you can't. Do the adult thing and have a conversation with her.
This isn't OP's acquaintance who said something dumb in a chat. This is a doctor. It is a professional relationship where there is an inherent disparity in balance of power. That makes this meaningfully different than two "adults" having a "conversation," the doctor carries a burden of professional responsibility here. Even if OP and doc were of the same ethnicity and the same socioeconomic strata, the doctor patient relationship alone makes this different.
If you were required to disclose moonlighting to your primary workplace and were talking to your boss or HR about your second job in vending, and they asked if that meant you were selling yourself for money, that would be inappropriate.
If you listed your part time vending work on your income statement for your lease renewal and your landlord asked if that meant you were selling yourself for money, that would be inappropriate.
OP isn't responsible for fixing any of this!!
posted by phunniemee at 5:53 AM on January 18 [17 favorites]
This isn't OP's acquaintance who said something dumb in a chat. This is a doctor. It is a professional relationship where there is an inherent disparity in balance of power. That makes this meaningfully different than two "adults" having a "conversation," the doctor carries a burden of professional responsibility here. Even if OP and doc were of the same ethnicity and the same socioeconomic strata, the doctor patient relationship alone makes this different.
If you were required to disclose moonlighting to your primary workplace and were talking to your boss or HR about your second job in vending, and they asked if that meant you were selling yourself for money, that would be inappropriate.
If you listed your part time vending work on your income statement for your lease renewal and your landlord asked if that meant you were selling yourself for money, that would be inappropriate.
OP isn't responsible for fixing any of this!!
posted by phunniemee at 5:53 AM on January 18 [17 favorites]
It would be one thing if this were your first interaction, but I would place a lot of weight on the fact that you have "adored" her for 10 years. As Awfki said, you can't read her mind, so you should ask her what she meant. But she can't read yours either, so you should tell her how offensive you found her statement. E.g., "I stock soda machines. I found it shocking and offensive that you interpreted that simple statement as possibly meaning that I am engaged in sex work. I hope that you will be more considerate in your future communications." Her response to your request will tell you much more about her true state of mind than one possibly careless sentence.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:04 AM on January 18 [13 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:04 AM on January 18 [13 favorites]
This was appallingly rude. Also, from someone you liked and trusted, even more devastating. And bizarre. Even if she was trying to be awkwardly funny in a "I need a more detailed job description otherwise I am going to assume you're doing [offensive condescending term] hahaha no I mean we both know I'm joking" - just, that just uncovers a very problematic attitude and very ugly assumptions.
I am a physician. I do not live in the US and the only encounter I had with US healthcare was a single visit at an urgent care center while traveling so I can't have the same context as people who know the system from the inside but - this was just icky and massively offensive and disrespectful and what was she even thinking???
I honestly don't know what I'd do, it depends on so many other things including available healthcare options, and other support but I'd get that certificate/ sign-off first and then I'd write an email to her (so it's on record) saying that I found her email confusing, hurtful and (depending on how empowered I felt otherwise) - offensive/insulting. If I thought she might get offended/retaliate, I'd leave out the "offensive" part and ask for an explanation, then later email the Board/ombudsperson or whoever is locally appropriate to forward the encounter.
So sorry you had the experience, and I do hope she apologizes profusely AND that you are able to find someone new who earns your trust and whom you feel respected by.
posted by M. at 6:16 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
I am a physician. I do not live in the US and the only encounter I had with US healthcare was a single visit at an urgent care center while traveling so I can't have the same context as people who know the system from the inside but - this was just icky and massively offensive and disrespectful and what was she even thinking???
I honestly don't know what I'd do, it depends on so many other things including available healthcare options, and other support but I'd get that certificate/ sign-off first and then I'd write an email to her (so it's on record) saying that I found her email confusing, hurtful and (depending on how empowered I felt otherwise) - offensive/insulting. If I thought she might get offended/retaliate, I'd leave out the "offensive" part and ask for an explanation, then later email the Board/ombudsperson or whoever is locally appropriate to forward the encounter.
So sorry you had the experience, and I do hope she apologizes profusely AND that you are able to find someone new who earns your trust and whom you feel respected by.
posted by M. at 6:16 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
Even if the search result comes up when searching "vending machine slang," why on earth would she have assumed it was slang? That's an potential example of a place where bias may have crept in. If this happened to me, I would then be worried that she's "translating" everyday words I'm using in ways that I didn't mean, which would be potentially dangerous in a healthcare setting.
This is not the same as two adults in an equal relationship having a misunderstanding. This is a medical provider failing at basic communication.
posted by lapis at 6:31 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
This is not the same as two adults in an equal relationship having a misunderstanding. This is a medical provider failing at basic communication.
posted by lapis at 6:31 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
Based on the history you gave, and that fact that you previously "adored" this doctor, I also will support the Joke Gone Wrong theory. If you've never read John Scalzi's essay "The Failure Mode of Clever," this is a good example of the phenomenon.
It was offensive, I agree. But if this were me, I'd be willing to consider that this is just an attempt at humor that fell flat.
Also, as a practical matter, you have a DOCTOR as your primary care provider? That is amazing! In the 12 years since I got out of the navy, I've only ever seen an MD for specialist care. My primary care providers have been a series of nurse practitioners and physician's assistants. If you threaten to replace her, is there another doctor ready to take you on as a patient, or will you be downgraded to a PA? If I were you I'd at least know the local healthcare climate and availability of new providers to take on a patient, or you could be stuck with no PCP at all.
This sucks for you, and I hate that practical matters like having a doctor you now don't trust versus having no doctor at all should be factor in your thinking, but it very most definitely should be. I am wishing the best for you in this situation.
posted by seasparrow at 7:04 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
It was offensive, I agree. But if this were me, I'd be willing to consider that this is just an attempt at humor that fell flat.
Also, as a practical matter, you have a DOCTOR as your primary care provider? That is amazing! In the 12 years since I got out of the navy, I've only ever seen an MD for specialist care. My primary care providers have been a series of nurse practitioners and physician's assistants. If you threaten to replace her, is there another doctor ready to take you on as a patient, or will you be downgraded to a PA? If I were you I'd at least know the local healthcare climate and availability of new providers to take on a patient, or you could be stuck with no PCP at all.
This sucks for you, and I hate that practical matters like having a doctor you now don't trust versus having no doctor at all should be factor in your thinking, but it very most definitely should be. I am wishing the best for you in this situation.
posted by seasparrow at 7:04 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
Like others, I gave the doctor the benefit of the doubt and Googled "vending machine job" and kept scrolling and scrolling and....it was all results for actual jobs, people asking Reddit/Quora advice on vending machine jobs, etc. I agree that the site UrbanDictionary is at this point just slang broadly, not racially coded per se. But it still is wildly unprofessional (and yes, likely racist) that your doctor is assuming you were using a slang term that would require a visit to UrbanDictionary and not just a regular Google. (I'm also just really baffled that a doctor, who presumably has worked in a hospital with vending machines, is unaware that vending machines require human labor.)
But, a doctor who you adore over a 12-year relationship is really hard to find. It's valuable to have a doctor that really knows you and your medical history. I would probably confront her, in whatever medium you feel more comfortable, but I'd suggest either in-person or over the phone where you can at least hear her tone of voice. When she hears how much this hurt you, does she take that in and genuinely feel bad and offer a good apology? Provided she is indeed a really good doctor, I'd be at least open to the possibility of forgiving her.
posted by coffeecat at 7:31 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
But, a doctor who you adore over a 12-year relationship is really hard to find. It's valuable to have a doctor that really knows you and your medical history. I would probably confront her, in whatever medium you feel more comfortable, but I'd suggest either in-person or over the phone where you can at least hear her tone of voice. When she hears how much this hurt you, does she take that in and genuinely feel bad and offer a good apology? Provided she is indeed a really good doctor, I'd be at least open to the possibility of forgiving her.
posted by coffeecat at 7:31 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
It's valuable to have a doctor that really knows you and your medical history
This is absolutely correct but what's made me so upset about this post is that, for me, if I received this comment, it would make me question that entirely.
Would a doctor who actually knew me or my medical history have asked that question? How many other completely normal things have I said that my doctor has assumed as slang? How many medically relevant things have I shared about myself that may have been dismissed because of that? Over 12 years of discussing my medical history, what would make them assume sex work? If they think I engage in risk taking behavior, why has that never come up before? If I were doing sex work, I certainly wouldn't feel safe having the topic brought up in this way.
This would fundamentally destabilize my foundation of trust with my doctor. At best, I would start to assume my doctor is a moron, and I don't trust that a whole lot either.
posted by phunniemee at 7:39 AM on January 18 [11 favorites]
This is absolutely correct but what's made me so upset about this post is that, for me, if I received this comment, it would make me question that entirely.
Would a doctor who actually knew me or my medical history have asked that question? How many other completely normal things have I said that my doctor has assumed as slang? How many medically relevant things have I shared about myself that may have been dismissed because of that? Over 12 years of discussing my medical history, what would make them assume sex work? If they think I engage in risk taking behavior, why has that never come up before? If I were doing sex work, I certainly wouldn't feel safe having the topic brought up in this way.
This would fundamentally destabilize my foundation of trust with my doctor. At best, I would start to assume my doctor is a moron, and I don't trust that a whole lot either.
posted by phunniemee at 7:39 AM on January 18 [11 favorites]
This is such weird behavior on the doctor's part, especially given a good prior relationship over a decade (like, it's not even "normal" racist talk), that I'm going to raise, only tentatively, a possibility that you may want to exclude before taking action. The prior ask you refer to mentions a recent two-week stay in the hospital for a psychiatric issue. Was psychosis implicated at all? If so, I would ask a trusted friend to read out the email to you, just to confirm that you have read the text literally correctly. (I would ordinarily not suggest this--it's literally only because of your recent hospitalization.)
posted by praemunire at 7:52 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 7:52 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
It was racist and sexist regardless of your doctor's intent. Women of color are vulnerable in medical settings and weird, thoughtless remarks hit harder in a world where people are regularly demeaned because of their identities. People in care roles have a responsibility to consider how their words affect others.
Whether this was a terrible joke or an offensively worded attempt to clarify your previous occupation, it was a hurtful, unprofessional thing to say and shows a lack of empathy and sensitivity. If you like this doctor, a strongly worded, "That is an incredibly strange and rude thing to say, especially coming from a doctor I trust" is totally appropriate and will hopefully clarify whether you can move forward with this provider.
posted by toastedcheese at 7:59 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
Whether this was a terrible joke or an offensively worded attempt to clarify your previous occupation, it was a hurtful, unprofessional thing to say and shows a lack of empathy and sensitivity. If you like this doctor, a strongly worded, "That is an incredibly strange and rude thing to say, especially coming from a doctor I trust" is totally appropriate and will hopefully clarify whether you can move forward with this provider.
posted by toastedcheese at 7:59 AM on January 18 [6 favorites]
As so many others have said, this was totally inappropriate and offensive. It simply cannot have been, as noted by lapis, a mistake. At the very least, the doctor had to "reach" to find this definition. I echo all the sentiments expressed by phunniemee above.
Most of all, as a 70+ year old white woman, I want to support JZZByBffqU's call for white people to STOP saying it's not racist.
posted by Scout405 at 8:01 AM on January 18 [9 favorites]
Most of all, as a 70+ year old white woman, I want to support JZZByBffqU's call for white people to STOP saying it's not racist.
posted by Scout405 at 8:01 AM on January 18 [9 favorites]
I am rather stunned that it seems the majority of people are assuming the doctor wasn't familiar with a vending machine and that they then googled it and were unsatisfied with that answer so then went to Urban Dictionary to look it up. It absolutely strains credulity for me and is a massive leap in logic that in no way gives the benefit of the doubt to a person that the OP says she's known 10 years and adores.
It is far more likely the doctor was already familiar with the slang definition, perhaps having been told it by another patient who used it to describe their own work. Obviously, we don't know how they came to know the slang.
That they either didn't know what a vending machine is (impossible to believe) or that they just could not believe a woman or woman of color literally worked with vending machines so then went to UD... mind-boggling to me that anyone believes this could have been the sequence of events.
In no universe I can wrap my head around does a doctor not know what a vending machine is and in no universe I can wrap my head around does a racist (and I know plenty) think, "A person of color isn't capable of real vending machine work... what else could this mean? Let me head to the Urban Dictionary!"
Most of all, as a 70+ year old white woman, I want to support JZZByBffqU's call for white people to STOP saying it's not racist.
Again, the OP specifically asked if it's racist. It's the purpose of the question. She asks, "Do you have any other opinions?"
posted by dobbs at 8:19 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
It is far more likely the doctor was already familiar with the slang definition, perhaps having been told it by another patient who used it to describe their own work. Obviously, we don't know how they came to know the slang.
That they either didn't know what a vending machine is (impossible to believe) or that they just could not believe a woman or woman of color literally worked with vending machines so then went to UD... mind-boggling to me that anyone believes this could have been the sequence of events.
In no universe I can wrap my head around does a doctor not know what a vending machine is and in no universe I can wrap my head around does a racist (and I know plenty) think, "A person of color isn't capable of real vending machine work... what else could this mean? Let me head to the Urban Dictionary!"
Most of all, as a 70+ year old white woman, I want to support JZZByBffqU's call for white people to STOP saying it's not racist.
Again, the OP specifically asked if it's racist. It's the purpose of the question. She asks, "Do you have any other opinions?"
posted by dobbs at 8:19 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Agree it's very offensive, and I want to highlight the notion that how she responds to your complaint about her unprofessional comments, tone, and terms is what you should judge her by, more than a very bad line in an email. And in my book, anyone I've "adored" through a 10 year relationship in their professional context deserves a chance to patch things up after a mistake, as long as I don't feel unsafe bringing it up. If she doesn't 100% regain your trust and respect in that conversation, then you can move on to another doctor knowing you're doing the right thing.
You can also obviously lodge a formal complaint and walk away, or walk away without saying a word, if that's what feels right. You don't owe her the chance, I mention it only because you may prefer to stick with a good doctor you like if she can redeem herself.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:20 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
You can also obviously lodge a formal complaint and walk away, or walk away without saying a word, if that's what feels right. You don't owe her the chance, I mention it only because you may prefer to stick with a good doctor you like if she can redeem herself.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:20 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
I can't read anymore responses saying this is not racist or offensive and explaining to you why.
You wrote that you found this racist and offensive. That's the impact it had on you no matter the intent. Full stop. It is a microaggression in the least and much more at the worst. The way you feel about it is correct and valid.
I'm sorry a doctor you have liked and trusted did this to you. But it's not your fault.
I myself would have reacted the same way as you as a biracial person of color. Vending machine job is someone who works with vending machines. I don't get what people don't understand about your wording.
Another thing. She's not learned enough to have said "sex worker" she used weird terminology that she either found on urban dictionary or made up that is not politically correct or of the times we live in. So I find it highly doubtful she was just trying to make sure you were being resourced if in fact that was your profession.
All this to say, you're feelings are valid. She was wholey unprofessional. I bet this is an implicit bias thing. She probably comes across as someone who is mostly not racist but she obviously has huge blind spots.
Would you feel comfortable responding with "wow, that came out of left field and (choose words you want but racist, offensive, surprising, etc) I worked re-stocking vending machines for X company." See how she responds. If she apologizes you might be able to move forward. If she becomes defensive ask around for a better doctor. Good luck.
posted by mxjudyliza at 8:23 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
You wrote that you found this racist and offensive. That's the impact it had on you no matter the intent. Full stop. It is a microaggression in the least and much more at the worst. The way you feel about it is correct and valid.
I'm sorry a doctor you have liked and trusted did this to you. But it's not your fault.
I myself would have reacted the same way as you as a biracial person of color. Vending machine job is someone who works with vending machines. I don't get what people don't understand about your wording.
Another thing. She's not learned enough to have said "sex worker" she used weird terminology that she either found on urban dictionary or made up that is not politically correct or of the times we live in. So I find it highly doubtful she was just trying to make sure you were being resourced if in fact that was your profession.
All this to say, you're feelings are valid. She was wholey unprofessional. I bet this is an implicit bias thing. She probably comes across as someone who is mostly not racist but she obviously has huge blind spots.
Would you feel comfortable responding with "wow, that came out of left field and (choose words you want but racist, offensive, surprising, etc) I worked re-stocking vending machines for X company." See how she responds. If she apologizes you might be able to move forward. If she becomes defensive ask around for a better doctor. Good luck.
posted by mxjudyliza at 8:23 AM on January 18 [10 favorites]
You know that old thing about “if the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems look like a nail?” Well, it seems a lot of MFers have only the “racism” hammer.
Everything that hits a bad note is not racism, and it’s hard to find a good doctor, and ten years of good behavior puts a lot of good will into the bank. I’ve known some people I’d legitimately describe as “racist,” and believe me, you couldn’t talk to them for a full day (some not for a full five minutes) without realizing what kind of scumbags they were. I’d assume she chose her words poorly (or possibly even that a staff member sent the email on her behalf). I would call on the phone or better yet ask face-to-face. Describe what you got from the message. My guess is she’ll be horrified when she realizes how she came across.
Remember with our so-called “medical system” physicians are under incredible time pressure and other kinds of strain. But you have to be able to trust your doctor and that will be impossible till you get to the bottom of this. If she turns out to be a racist shitbag, bombs away!
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 8:23 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
Everything that hits a bad note is not racism, and it’s hard to find a good doctor, and ten years of good behavior puts a lot of good will into the bank. I’ve known some people I’d legitimately describe as “racist,” and believe me, you couldn’t talk to them for a full day (some not for a full five minutes) without realizing what kind of scumbags they were. I’d assume she chose her words poorly (or possibly even that a staff member sent the email on her behalf). I would call on the phone or better yet ask face-to-face. Describe what you got from the message. My guess is she’ll be horrified when she realizes how she came across.
Remember with our so-called “medical system” physicians are under incredible time pressure and other kinds of strain. But you have to be able to trust your doctor and that will be impossible till you get to the bottom of this. If she turns out to be a racist shitbag, bombs away!
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 8:23 AM on January 18 [7 favorites]
Maybe you should ask your PCP if she's taking PCP. ("Angel dust" in urban slang.)
posted by SPrintF at 8:24 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 8:24 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
Hi, 50+ year old black guy here.
It doesn't sound racist to me, simply odd. But people are odd, you know?
I was at dinner with about 20 people and one near 50 year old woman had no idea what "Netflix and chill" means. It had to be explained to her and she was completely surprised about that meaning. Everyone else around the table, ranging from 18 to 76 was completely surprised she had no idea.
So someone not knowing the seemingly obvious isn't surprising to me, so I personally wouldn't put too much stock in someone not understanding something. There's a lot of colloquial names, phrases, and meanings in any region of any culture and a individual can't know them all.
To me, it's also worth noting that this was an email exchange, where misunderstanding are a larger possibility because there's no body language or vocal cues. Had it been in person, there might have been an awkward pause or tint to her voice as she acknowledged the awkwardness of her misunderstanding.
Finally, and this is the major point IMO, she's been your doctor for close to 10 years and you've adored the care she's given you, which hasn't had a hint of biases until now. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt, 'cause people can be weird and sometimes doctors are even weirder. Gently bring up the misunderstanding or move on from it, while being watchful of another signs.
You're not wrong to be disturbed about this, and you're absolutely entitled to feel how you feel. But this person has been good to you for close to a decade, so my advice would be to carefully consider whether cutting this person from your life is helpful to you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:27 AM on January 18 [31 favorites]
It doesn't sound racist to me, simply odd. But people are odd, you know?
I was at dinner with about 20 people and one near 50 year old woman had no idea what "Netflix and chill" means. It had to be explained to her and she was completely surprised about that meaning. Everyone else around the table, ranging from 18 to 76 was completely surprised she had no idea.
So someone not knowing the seemingly obvious isn't surprising to me, so I personally wouldn't put too much stock in someone not understanding something. There's a lot of colloquial names, phrases, and meanings in any region of any culture and a individual can't know them all.
To me, it's also worth noting that this was an email exchange, where misunderstanding are a larger possibility because there's no body language or vocal cues. Had it been in person, there might have been an awkward pause or tint to her voice as she acknowledged the awkwardness of her misunderstanding.
Finally, and this is the major point IMO, she's been your doctor for close to 10 years and you've adored the care she's given you, which hasn't had a hint of biases until now. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt, 'cause people can be weird and sometimes doctors are even weirder. Gently bring up the misunderstanding or move on from it, while being watchful of another signs.
You're not wrong to be disturbed about this, and you're absolutely entitled to feel how you feel. But this person has been good to you for close to a decade, so my advice would be to carefully consider whether cutting this person from your life is helpful to you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:27 AM on January 18 [31 favorites]
To respond to these questions you asked: "Was it impolite of her to reference the urban dictionary as well as make such a crass generalization in such a glib fashion? Why am I offended so much by this?"
Yes. It was impolite. Yes it was unprofessional and rude. You are offended so much by this because instead of asking you to elaborate on "vending machine job" she took it upon herself to make leaps based on implicit bias and make an ass out of herself and hurt you in the process. She could have done the professional thing and asked for more details about the vending machine job without adding in any assumptions.
Sure don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and find a new GP over this, but at the same time, these seemingly little things do matter and do add up.
There are many many findings of GP's writing racist coded notes that prevents their patients from getting adequate care. This is a real problem. So I would ask anyone who is trying to argue with you about whether or not your feelings are valid to sit this one out since it looks like all of MetaFilter is coming in here to tell you you're wrong and this wasn't racist.
posted by mxjudyliza at 8:39 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Yes. It was impolite. Yes it was unprofessional and rude. You are offended so much by this because instead of asking you to elaborate on "vending machine job" she took it upon herself to make leaps based on implicit bias and make an ass out of herself and hurt you in the process. She could have done the professional thing and asked for more details about the vending machine job without adding in any assumptions.
Sure don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and find a new GP over this, but at the same time, these seemingly little things do matter and do add up.
There are many many findings of GP's writing racist coded notes that prevents their patients from getting adequate care. This is a real problem. So I would ask anyone who is trying to argue with you about whether or not your feelings are valid to sit this one out since it looks like all of MetaFilter is coming in here to tell you you're wrong and this wasn't racist.
posted by mxjudyliza at 8:39 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Racism would be about the third or fourth thing I would consider here. I mean, of course it's possible, but far more likely to my mind is that for some reason she is not familiar with the term "vending machine," assumed it was slang, and looked it up. We all assume that everyone else is familiar with the same terminology, but it's amazing what people don't know and the weird conclusions they jump to. Is she American? Is English her first language? Does her job involve deciphering a lot of slang? Should we necessarily assume she has ever encountered the concept of a "vending machine job"? Did she recently take an MCE on communicating with patients openly about sex and that's where her mind is? Are any of these possibilities more likely than a previously adored doctor of 10 years' acquaintance suddenly turning into an offensively blunt racist in her professional interactions with you?
posted by HotToddy at 8:40 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 8:40 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Have to admit I'm puzzled at the immediate jump to offense, because that's not how that quoted piece reads. It displays confusion, not bias.
"Urban" Dictionary pretty much catches all slang or less familiar terms. As far as I'm aware, it was never limited to urban, POC, teen, or even English slang, and over the last 25 years, it's become just another reference site.
I could totally see a person being clueless - totally or momentarily - and not understanding "vending machine". Especially since when my ex-husband WAS working as a restocker of vending machines, I encountered people who had no idea what I meant by that. Surprisingly many had other terms for it, or had never thought about what they were called. (Sometimes, it's because it's never occurred to them that solely refilling machines is an actual job - instead they assume it's all done by whoever operates the location.) Though many of these interactions were in the late 90s - early 2000s, it's happened recently, too... due to particular circumstances, that job / company comes up in my conversations surprisingly often for being 20 years ago.
I could also see that leading to a searching engine. And then if the first result came back to sex-worker adjacent - and the doctor, having known you for ten years, being pretty surprised, because that's NOT the understanding they had of you/your lifestyle/your employment/whatever - and sending you a message in confusion, asking you to clarify, because they DIDN'T think that was what it meant, but couldn't think what it did.
And presumably, for your health issues, that WOULD be very relevant information for your doctor to have, if you WERE a sex-worker - so much so (especially since you've also described recent mental health issues) that your doctor would be negligent NOT to ask once it's occurred to them that it might be a slim possibility. That said, just as relevant would be a description of the actual work you do.
So a response of, "I hadn't heard that crazy slang! No, I just refill the machines you put money in to get candy and soda. So I'm just lifting and carrying boxes of candy or cases of soda to refill vending machines, nothing over ## pounds. There's some bending and turning, but not a lot. I do more driving from location to location more than anything else." seems a reasonable reply to the message, rather than offense.
Also... those who are female and HAVEN'T ever had a doctor ask/check whether or not you do or have done sex-work... well. THAT's strange to me. It does seem to be more common in urban/suburban areas and among younger (under 40?) practitioners, along with those who work in women's health... but it's not something unusual, or even uncommon. Bias about it? Offensive. Asking in the first place? Not offensive.
posted by stormyteal at 8:40 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
"Urban" Dictionary pretty much catches all slang or less familiar terms. As far as I'm aware, it was never limited to urban, POC, teen, or even English slang, and over the last 25 years, it's become just another reference site.
I could totally see a person being clueless - totally or momentarily - and not understanding "vending machine". Especially since when my ex-husband WAS working as a restocker of vending machines, I encountered people who had no idea what I meant by that. Surprisingly many had other terms for it, or had never thought about what they were called. (Sometimes, it's because it's never occurred to them that solely refilling machines is an actual job - instead they assume it's all done by whoever operates the location.) Though many of these interactions were in the late 90s - early 2000s, it's happened recently, too... due to particular circumstances, that job / company comes up in my conversations surprisingly often for being 20 years ago.
I could also see that leading to a searching engine. And then if the first result came back to sex-worker adjacent - and the doctor, having known you for ten years, being pretty surprised, because that's NOT the understanding they had of you/your lifestyle/your employment/whatever - and sending you a message in confusion, asking you to clarify, because they DIDN'T think that was what it meant, but couldn't think what it did.
And presumably, for your health issues, that WOULD be very relevant information for your doctor to have, if you WERE a sex-worker - so much so (especially since you've also described recent mental health issues) that your doctor would be negligent NOT to ask once it's occurred to them that it might be a slim possibility. That said, just as relevant would be a description of the actual work you do.
So a response of, "I hadn't heard that crazy slang! No, I just refill the machines you put money in to get candy and soda. So I'm just lifting and carrying boxes of candy or cases of soda to refill vending machines, nothing over ## pounds. There's some bending and turning, but not a lot. I do more driving from location to location more than anything else." seems a reasonable reply to the message, rather than offense.
Also... those who are female and HAVEN'T ever had a doctor ask/check whether or not you do or have done sex-work... well. THAT's strange to me. It does seem to be more common in urban/suburban areas and among younger (under 40?) practitioners, along with those who work in women's health... but it's not something unusual, or even uncommon. Bias about it? Offensive. Asking in the first place? Not offensive.
posted by stormyteal at 8:40 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
I think rainy day girl has it right and she intended no offense and thought she would be understood to be making a joke about her own tragic unhipness. But that she remained in that delusion for the whole multistep process of researching, writing, and sending that e-mail is profoundly weird. First she would have had to look at "vending machine job" and not assume "stocking vending machines." That's a bit weird. Then she opted to google it instead of just asking "what do you do for the vending machine people?" Also weird. And then she used her own fingers to transcribe an entry from the urban dictionary about slang for prostitution into an e-mail to one of her patients. Very, very weird. Still not dealbreaker weird, yet, because she had the option to delete the e-mail or just leave it in drafts. But then she sent the e-mail. That she sent the e-mail is... so! Effing! Weird! It's a level of weird that leaves me worried about her aliveness status.
If I were you I think I would just say that to her. "Hey there, Dr. Smith, on a human-to-human level, I found your e-mail worrisomely strange. Are you okay? It unnerved me so much I'm looking for another primary care physician. You've been wonderful for ten years and I really like you, but this was too far beyond the pale. I want a good doctor, and I think you're a really good doctor, but baseline my doctor needs to not be currently suffering a psychotic break. Please let me know if you're okay."
posted by Don Pepino at 8:40 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
If I were you I think I would just say that to her. "Hey there, Dr. Smith, on a human-to-human level, I found your e-mail worrisomely strange. Are you okay? It unnerved me so much I'm looking for another primary care physician. You've been wonderful for ten years and I really like you, but this was too far beyond the pale. I want a good doctor, and I think you're a really good doctor, but baseline my doctor needs to not be currently suffering a psychotic break. Please let me know if you're okay."
posted by Don Pepino at 8:40 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
Also, how old is she? My mom is rapidly losing the ability to parse unfamiliar terms. She recently was completely baffled when I told her my dog was running, tripped, and did a face plant. "What is a face plant?" I am 100% positive she would not have had this question a few years ago.
posted by HotToddy at 8:43 AM on January 18
posted by HotToddy at 8:43 AM on January 18
Yes get her to sign off first on the work note before you ask about her intent. Sad but it's what you gotta do. I would just say "wow, no, I worked at X company doing blah blah blah"
posted by mxjudyliza at 8:43 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
posted by mxjudyliza at 8:43 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
I’ve known some people I’d legitimately describe as “racist,” and believe me, you couldn’t talk to them for a full day (some not for a full five minutes) without realizing what kind of scumbags they were.
GC, racism can take a lot of forms, and not everybody who's racist is a full-out classic "scumbag" or "shitbag". Unconscious bias is a major thing that can be hard to get away from (but pretty essential to get away from for a medical professional of all things). Doctors taking Black women's pain less seriously, doctors taking women's pain in general less seriously, doctors subconsciously blaming sex workers for their health problems or treating them less carefully... these are things that can be done by people who might well be shocked to realize that's what they're doing.
And yeah, not everything is racism, but this is a truly bizarre and inappropriate email for a professional to write. Occam's razor doesn't come close to ruling out racist bias as playing a role here (and I think the wording absolutely conveys a bias against sex workers, which is also unacceptable in a medical professional of all things).
Whatever is behind it, there's a lack of respect and care for the patient in that email. And ignorance of the kinds of things a patient of color can have to deal with, which is also a problem - a doctor should at minimum be aware, as a professional, of the kind of bias-informed treatment and outcomes that patients often experience in medical contexts. Being a doctor is a huge responsibility; taking care is not optional.
posted by trig at 8:57 AM on January 18 [24 favorites]
GC, racism can take a lot of forms, and not everybody who's racist is a full-out classic "scumbag" or "shitbag". Unconscious bias is a major thing that can be hard to get away from (but pretty essential to get away from for a medical professional of all things). Doctors taking Black women's pain less seriously, doctors taking women's pain in general less seriously, doctors subconsciously blaming sex workers for their health problems or treating them less carefully... these are things that can be done by people who might well be shocked to realize that's what they're doing.
And yeah, not everything is racism, but this is a truly bizarre and inappropriate email for a professional to write. Occam's razor doesn't come close to ruling out racist bias as playing a role here (and I think the wording absolutely conveys a bias against sex workers, which is also unacceptable in a medical professional of all things).
Whatever is behind it, there's a lack of respect and care for the patient in that email. And ignorance of the kinds of things a patient of color can have to deal with, which is also a problem - a doctor should at minimum be aware, as a professional, of the kind of bias-informed treatment and outcomes that patients often experience in medical contexts. Being a doctor is a huge responsibility; taking care is not optional.
posted by trig at 8:57 AM on January 18 [24 favorites]
As a white person from a country where there were almost no people of color before I was ten, I have said and done racist things. Maybe I still do, I don't know. I try not to, so I am always grateful if it is pointed out to me. So I support the idea that you should talk with your doctor about it, if you feel ok doing that.
That said, I find the remark immensely offensive, regardless of race. And it is made much worse by the fact that it is in writing. I literally can't imagine why your doctor would do this and I find it entirely logical that you react to it and suspect some form of bias.
If she, for health reasons, wanted to have a discussion about your sexual health, she should open it respectfully in a face-to-face situation, not in writing. She should never, ever use that language about it. And if there are no relevant medical issues, she has absolutely no business bringing it up.
The bad joke excuse doesn't make sense to me at all. I make bad jokes all the time, as a teacher, but I don't make them about people's race, religion, gender, or sexuality. That is just plain wrong, and it's public service job 101 that it is wrong. Insinuating that someone is a sex-worker is beyond that level of wrong. There is nothing wrong with being a sex-worker but that is an other issue, not relevant to this question.
That all said, I am reminded of my previous doctor, who I was also very fond of for many years. But at a certain point she began failing me rather dramatically , and in retrospect it was when I began struggling with some very difficult mental health issues after a series of violent and sexual assaults. Doctors are humans and part of society as a whole, and just like other people, they can be scared of things they don't understand.
posted by mumimor at 9:22 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
That said, I find the remark immensely offensive, regardless of race. And it is made much worse by the fact that it is in writing. I literally can't imagine why your doctor would do this and I find it entirely logical that you react to it and suspect some form of bias.
If she, for health reasons, wanted to have a discussion about your sexual health, she should open it respectfully in a face-to-face situation, not in writing. She should never, ever use that language about it. And if there are no relevant medical issues, she has absolutely no business bringing it up.
The bad joke excuse doesn't make sense to me at all. I make bad jokes all the time, as a teacher, but I don't make them about people's race, religion, gender, or sexuality. That is just plain wrong, and it's public service job 101 that it is wrong. Insinuating that someone is a sex-worker is beyond that level of wrong. There is nothing wrong with being a sex-worker but that is an other issue, not relevant to this question.
That all said, I am reminded of my previous doctor, who I was also very fond of for many years. But at a certain point she began failing me rather dramatically , and in retrospect it was when I began struggling with some very difficult mental health issues after a series of violent and sexual assaults. Doctors are humans and part of society as a whole, and just like other people, they can be scared of things they don't understand.
posted by mumimor at 9:22 AM on January 18 [5 favorites]
Is there any chance at all that an admin or PA wrote the email in her stead? I agree with the sentiment that a crisp professional response in order to get your return-to-work paperwork done is the best start; then deal with the chasm that this has created between you and your provider.
posted by achrise at 9:42 AM on January 18
posted by achrise at 9:42 AM on January 18
It's incumbent upon white healthcare professionals to know how to be respectful of their non-white patients. There's a power imbalance between clinician and patient, and plenty of historical instances of that power imbalance being leveraged to harm BIPOC patients in healthcare settings. So this isn't like if your oddball neighbor made a weird joke.
If a doctor believes their patient's history of sex work is important to discuss for purposes of providing the right care, it is crucial for the doctor to ask clear, respectful, and clinically relevant questions.
A doctor should not make a joke about a patient doing sex work. The power imbalance and basic professionalism make this incredibly obvious.
A white doctor making a joke about a BIPOC patient doing sex work is racist, whether they knew it or not. A white person in a position of power cannot make a dehumanizing joke at a BIPOC person's expense in a white supremacist society without there being an element of racism.
posted by theotherdurassister at 10:35 AM on January 18 [14 favorites]
If a doctor believes their patient's history of sex work is important to discuss for purposes of providing the right care, it is crucial for the doctor to ask clear, respectful, and clinically relevant questions.
A doctor should not make a joke about a patient doing sex work. The power imbalance and basic professionalism make this incredibly obvious.
A white doctor making a joke about a BIPOC patient doing sex work is racist, whether they knew it or not. A white person in a position of power cannot make a dehumanizing joke at a BIPOC person's expense in a white supremacist society without there being an element of racism.
posted by theotherdurassister at 10:35 AM on January 18 [14 favorites]
Maybe she's joking! Maybe she's senile! Maybe she's not even her and someone else impersonated her! None of us is inside this woman's head and none of us can give a definitive answer, but it is incredibly telling that such a significant portion of this group is so invested in her innocence that people need to come up with this many hypothetical scenarios to sidestep the very real possibility that she is not the one shining star who has magically avoided having unconscious racial bias that can manifest itself even when she doesn't intend for it to. Big yikes.
posted by wormtales at 11:35 AM on January 18 [16 favorites]
posted by wormtales at 11:35 AM on January 18 [16 favorites]
I'm not sure whether I (white woman) think racist first then sex-work-negative, or the other way around. I (professor) am sure that this doctor should be taking much more care in how she interacts with patients.
The power differential just plain requires it.
If she wanted to understand your vending machine work better in the context of your ability that she's evaluating, she could ask a simpler question that is more directly related to whether you can physically perform the work, like "what type of activity does that work ask of you?"
In people-tending jobs, those of us with power don't get to be casual as we wish. And it's not the student or patient's job to find the kindest meaning in our words, to assume the best of us. Them's the breaks.
posted by Dashy at 12:00 PM on January 18 [16 favorites]
The power differential just plain requires it.
If she wanted to understand your vending machine work better in the context of your ability that she's evaluating, she could ask a simpler question that is more directly related to whether you can physically perform the work, like "what type of activity does that work ask of you?"
In people-tending jobs, those of us with power don't get to be casual as we wish. And it's not the student or patient's job to find the kindest meaning in our words, to assume the best of us. Them's the breaks.
posted by Dashy at 12:00 PM on January 18 [16 favorites]
Given your facts 1 and 2, this is very weird. I'd wonder if the medical practice is using ChatGPT for patient communications - lots of articles about them using it to write medical notes.
I work in healthcare and this was my first thought. “AI-assistants” that are integrated into the various Electronic Health Record systems are being pushed hard as of late, and the message you received is one that I wouldn’t be surprised to see from a very poor AI-assistant. Regardless, the users are supposed to be reviewing the products of these tools, and clearly they aren’t. If I were in your shoes, I’d call the office, tell them that you received a shocking message from your provider, and allow them to investigate and get back to you with their findings.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 12:01 PM on January 18 [5 favorites]
I work in healthcare and this was my first thought. “AI-assistants” that are integrated into the various Electronic Health Record systems are being pushed hard as of late, and the message you received is one that I wouldn’t be surprised to see from a very poor AI-assistant. Regardless, the users are supposed to be reviewing the products of these tools, and clearly they aren’t. If I were in your shoes, I’d call the office, tell them that you received a shocking message from your provider, and allow them to investigate and get back to you with their findings.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 12:01 PM on January 18 [5 favorites]
oh, and -- pretty sure docs are all very familiar with "vending machines" as a primary source of nutrition during medical school.
posted by Dashy at 12:02 PM on January 18 [11 favorites]
posted by Dashy at 12:02 PM on January 18 [11 favorites]
The ChatGPT explanation hadn't occurred to me, but now that it's been suggested I'd bet money that that's what happened.
I've been racking my brains trying to work out plausible pathways by which an adored doctor of ten years standing could wind up sending such a massively stupid email response, and there's just so much "what the FUCK were they thinking" that goes away entirely if one entertains the possibility that no form of thinking was ever involved.
Arranging for an unsupervised bot to generate first-line replies to patient emails is of course its own form of stupid, but it's a form that I could easily see a practice administrator having been inveigled into by slick marketing, and it doesn't require any actual human being to have experienced an apparent total personality transplant.
posted by flabdablet at 12:31 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
I've been racking my brains trying to work out plausible pathways by which an adored doctor of ten years standing could wind up sending such a massively stupid email response, and there's just so much "what the FUCK were they thinking" that goes away entirely if one entertains the possibility that no form of thinking was ever involved.
Arranging for an unsupervised bot to generate first-line replies to patient emails is of course its own form of stupid, but it's a form that I could easily see a practice administrator having been inveigled into by slick marketing, and it doesn't require any actual human being to have experienced an apparent total personality transplant.
posted by flabdablet at 12:31 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Oh! I missed evilmomlady's comment, but the ChatGPT explanation makes sense. Because there just is not any believable explanation for why a person would do this, even a person with a raging case of conscious racial bias, except that they were, as has been suggested above, blackout drunk, all messed up on PCP, or having a stroke at the time. All potential explanations for why a not-crazed, not-high, relatively reasonable human person with a normal level of racial bias, whether that person was the doctor or the doctor's assistant, would communicate this way look like a scenario on some dystopian cross between Black Mirror and Punk'd. For me, the doctor turning over patient communication to ChatGPT is the most dystopian explanation of all, and the most likely. Yay, contemporary life on Earth, I guess. :|
If it really was the doctor, then okay: maybe it wasn't a bizarre case where she didn't know what a vending machine was, had to google, then composed a joke in the poorest taste imaginable to ask for clarification. Sure: maybe all this time the doctor has kept hidden the fact that she's a racist on the level of Leonardo DiCaprio's character on Django Unchained but she's tired of tamping it down. Maybe this slavering monster thought to herself, "A patient I have known for ten years has taken a second part-time job; my patient is nonwhite; because my patient is nonwhite, it's most likely when she says 'part-time vending machine job' she means not that she empties money from vending machines and keeps them full of Cokes and Doritos but that she has become a prostitute. I'll write her right now and ask her if she's doing sex work. She won't think that's rude: she's not white."
Definitely this: "If I were in your shoes, I’d call the office, tell them that you received a shocking message from your provider, and allow them to investigate and get back to you with their findings." And if they don't fall on their knees apologizing and fire their AI assistant immediately, seek care elsewhere.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:43 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
If it really was the doctor, then okay: maybe it wasn't a bizarre case where she didn't know what a vending machine was, had to google, then composed a joke in the poorest taste imaginable to ask for clarification. Sure: maybe all this time the doctor has kept hidden the fact that she's a racist on the level of Leonardo DiCaprio's character on Django Unchained but she's tired of tamping it down. Maybe this slavering monster thought to herself, "A patient I have known for ten years has taken a second part-time job; my patient is nonwhite; because my patient is nonwhite, it's most likely when she says 'part-time vending machine job' she means not that she empties money from vending machines and keeps them full of Cokes and Doritos but that she has become a prostitute. I'll write her right now and ask her if she's doing sex work. She won't think that's rude: she's not white."
Definitely this: "If I were in your shoes, I’d call the office, tell them that you received a shocking message from your provider, and allow them to investigate and get back to you with their findings." And if they don't fall on their knees apologizing and fire their AI assistant immediately, seek care elsewhere.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:43 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Just did a DuckDuckGo search for "chatgpt medical practice emails" and the first page of results contains quite a distressing proportion of doctors going "ooooo, shiny".
posted by flabdablet at 12:45 PM on January 18
posted by flabdablet at 12:45 PM on January 18
I think it needs to be established, given your long positive history with her, that she wrote that email. There's a strong possibility she didn't. If she did, she did something very wrong.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:08 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:08 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
The email is incredibly inappropriate and ignorant.
Is it possible that there is a racist aspect to this—that she asked this question to you, but would not have asked it of someone of a different racial identity than yourself? Absolutely.
posted by grouse at 1:13 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Is it possible that there is a racist aspect to this—that she asked this question to you, but would not have asked it of someone of a different racial identity than yourself? Absolutely.
posted by grouse at 1:13 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Don Pepino: “ First she would have had to look at "vending machine job" and not assume "stocking vending machines." That's a bit weird. ”Just as a point of information, if one searches "vending machine job" on Google they get dozens and dozens of jobs working with vending machines and a link to this question but zero references to Urban Dictionary or sex work. I fired up Edge and asked CoPilot and it gave me a description of what a "vending machine job" entails that talked about collecting coins and stocking up candy, along with the surprising fact that you can make $25 an hour doing it. ChatGPT was obtuse and claimed it could mean anything, it depends on the context but if I included "part time" it at least admitted the phrase probably meant working with vending machines.
Point being, I'm finding it difficult to come up with a plausible situation where the offending e-mail didn't arise out of prejudice or bias.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:48 PM on January 18 [7 favorites]
Just coming back here to say that is absolutely NOT your responsibility as someone from the BIPOC community to have to educate white people about racism, implicit bias, or showing general respect to other cultures.
I can understand why "having a conversation," might not be something you want to do. Maybe you've had to have umpteenth conversations with co-workers, you child's teacher, the cashier at the grocery store, random stranger on the bus about why their comments and actions are not appropriate. It's possible that you are %#!!-ing exhausted from having all those conversations.
So, feel free to pass on this fantastic opportunity to educate yet another clueless white person and find another doctor if that would make your life easier.
posted by brookeb at 2:04 PM on January 18 [13 favorites]
I can understand why "having a conversation," might not be something you want to do. Maybe you've had to have umpteenth conversations with co-workers, you child's teacher, the cashier at the grocery store, random stranger on the bus about why their comments and actions are not appropriate. It's possible that you are %#!!-ing exhausted from having all those conversations.
So, feel free to pass on this fantastic opportunity to educate yet another clueless white person and find another doctor if that would make your life easier.
posted by brookeb at 2:04 PM on January 18 [13 favorites]
Just as a point of information, if one searches "vending machine job" on Google they get dozens and dozens of jobs working with vending machines and a link to this question but zero references to Urban Dictionary or sex work. I fired up Edge and asked CoPilot and it gave me a description of what a "vending machine job" entails that talked about collecting coins and stocking up candy, along with the surprising fact that you can make $25 an hour doing it. ChatGPT was obtuse and claimed it could mean anything, it depends on the context but if I included "part time" it at least admitted the phrase probably meant working with vending machines.
Yeah, I have a lot of discussions with my students about AI, since it is our university's formal policy that they can use it. And the point is that you have to train it. If you are a medical doctor and get any type of AI to answer your mails, and it comes up with a reference to Urban Dictionary, you are doing it wrong, because you are feeding it shit. You cannot under any circumstance use some generic stuff. I've been having exams today, and I am strongly convinced that AI is not at a level of development that is useful for any complex, cross-disciplinary problems yet.
The point in this specific situation is that even if the doctor was using some form of automated answer, it was still her responsibility that it came out with an offensive answer. You are right, regardless of the reason.
posted by mumimor at 2:13 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I have a lot of discussions with my students about AI, since it is our university's formal policy that they can use it. And the point is that you have to train it. If you are a medical doctor and get any type of AI to answer your mails, and it comes up with a reference to Urban Dictionary, you are doing it wrong, because you are feeding it shit. You cannot under any circumstance use some generic stuff. I've been having exams today, and I am strongly convinced that AI is not at a level of development that is useful for any complex, cross-disciplinary problems yet.
The point in this specific situation is that even if the doctor was using some form of automated answer, it was still her responsibility that it came out with an offensive answer. You are right, regardless of the reason.
posted by mumimor at 2:13 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
This is an extraordinarily bad email. Maybe it came from a racist doctor, maybe it came from a language model, but it is clear that this communication is not a professional attempt to address your health needs. Your doctor needs to be made aware that "some asshole is signing your name to stupid letters", and hopefully they can find some kind of productive response or lose you as a patient forever.
And the point is that you have to train it. If you are a medical doctor and get any type of AI to answer your mails, and it comes up with a reference to Urban Dictionary, you are doing it wrong, because you are feeding it shit.
(This might be a bit of a tangent, but: if a language model is acting racist on a doctor's behalf, the problem isn't being caused by the doctor giving the model racist training data, because few doctors would be training their own models. The problem is that the model, wherever it came from and however it was trained, has been allowed to act on the doctor's behalf, and there simply aren't any models strong enough to entrust them with that responsibility).
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 2:51 PM on January 18 [9 favorites]
And the point is that you have to train it. If you are a medical doctor and get any type of AI to answer your mails, and it comes up with a reference to Urban Dictionary, you are doing it wrong, because you are feeding it shit.
(This might be a bit of a tangent, but: if a language model is acting racist on a doctor's behalf, the problem isn't being caused by the doctor giving the model racist training data, because few doctors would be training their own models. The problem is that the model, wherever it came from and however it was trained, has been allowed to act on the doctor's behalf, and there simply aren't any models strong enough to entrust them with that responsibility).
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 2:51 PM on January 18 [9 favorites]
If you are a medical doctor and get any type of AI to answer your mails, and it comes up with a reference to Urban Dictionary, you are doing it wrong, because you are feeding it shit.
Important point here but there is no way that the AI that would be used to answer medical emails is trained ONLY on that person's or even practice's emails. If a reference to the urban dictionary came out of an AI mailbot, that doesn't mean that practice had references to the urban dictionary in their previous emails.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:43 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Important point here but there is no way that the AI that would be used to answer medical emails is trained ONLY on that person's or even practice's emails. If a reference to the urban dictionary came out of an AI mailbot, that doesn't mean that practice had references to the urban dictionary in their previous emails.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:43 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Your doctor needs to be made aware that "some asshole is signing your name to stupid letters"
The exact wording of that Letter Of Note, but with "offensive emails" subbed in for "stupid letters", would be the perfect response. Couldn't do better.
posted by flabdablet at 3:50 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
The exact wording of that Letter Of Note, but with "offensive emails" subbed in for "stupid letters", would be the perfect response. Couldn't do better.
posted by flabdablet at 3:50 PM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Maybe she's joking! Maybe she's senile! Maybe she's not even her and someone else impersonated her! None of us is inside this woman's head and none of us can give a definitive answer, but it is incredibly telling that such a significant portion of this group is so invested in her innocence that people need to come up with this many hypothetical scenarios to sidestep the very real possibility that she is not the one shining star who has magically avoided having unconscious racial bias that can manifest itself even when she doesn't intend for it to.
It's been said before, but OP specifically asked whether this was racist or might be something else ("do you have other opinions?").
Living by hard-and-fast rules makes you act stupid. This is not a stranger or someone who already has a questionable history with OP, this is someone with whom OP has enjoyed a good relationship for over a decade. OP themselves seems to have been surprised by the email. And...this is not some subtle expression of unconscious bias that one might see from anyone. This is an off-the-charts weird, inappropriate question that's barely even a sequitur in the conversation they were having. There are other possibilities here. If OP wants to solicit them from AskMe, that seems fair. OP certainly isn't required to give OP's doctor the benefit of the doubt if OP doesn't want to. OP is within OP's rights to file a complaint tomorrow if OP wants to, though it would be an uphill struggle to get anything done. But if OP values the PCP relationship and wants to get more context for the remark before deciding what to do, that's not a willfully blind thing to do.
posted by praemunire at 3:57 PM on January 18 [10 favorites]
It's been said before, but OP specifically asked whether this was racist or might be something else ("do you have other opinions?").
Living by hard-and-fast rules makes you act stupid. This is not a stranger or someone who already has a questionable history with OP, this is someone with whom OP has enjoyed a good relationship for over a decade. OP themselves seems to have been surprised by the email. And...this is not some subtle expression of unconscious bias that one might see from anyone. This is an off-the-charts weird, inappropriate question that's barely even a sequitur in the conversation they were having. There are other possibilities here. If OP wants to solicit them from AskMe, that seems fair. OP certainly isn't required to give OP's doctor the benefit of the doubt if OP doesn't want to. OP is within OP's rights to file a complaint tomorrow if OP wants to, though it would be an uphill struggle to get anything done. But if OP values the PCP relationship and wants to get more context for the remark before deciding what to do, that's not a willfully blind thing to do.
posted by praemunire at 3:57 PM on January 18 [10 favorites]
As someone who's heard how doctors speak about their patients when the patients are not present, as well as heard how these same patients rave about their doctor, the idea that a doctor may hold unsavory or biased beliefs but not have expressed them directly to a patient is not that outrageous.
posted by lapis at 5:22 PM on January 18 [7 favorites]
posted by lapis at 5:22 PM on January 18 [7 favorites]
The text as written doesn't sound like ChatGPT to me, but even if it's a possibility, a human could absolutely have written that email, even one who has been tactful and professional in the past. Sometimes people totally fail to read the room and say crappy things to each other. Human beings are hella weird.
posted by toastedcheese at 6:16 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
posted by toastedcheese at 6:16 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
I mentioned this question to my boyfriend last night and he brought up an excellent point. You're trying to get return to work paperwork completed, which is a required step for when you're out on disability leave or FMLA.
Let's say the doctor IS genuinely trying to make sure that they're providing you adequate care for a medical history that includes sex work, and they've just happened to bring it up in the dumbest most ham fisted way.
Y'all know anyone getting FMLA entitlement from their sex work job?
We also spent a lot of time scrolling through both urban dictionary and poking chatgpt and neither of those explanations make any sense either. 2¢
posted by phunniemee at 6:21 AM on January 19 [5 favorites]
Let's say the doctor IS genuinely trying to make sure that they're providing you adequate care for a medical history that includes sex work, and they've just happened to bring it up in the dumbest most ham fisted way.
Y'all know anyone getting FMLA entitlement from their sex work job?
We also spent a lot of time scrolling through both urban dictionary and poking chatgpt and neither of those explanations make any sense either. 2¢
posted by phunniemee at 6:21 AM on January 19 [5 favorites]
Honestly, I'm autistic, and gosh does this read like something someone on the spectrum would write. I read it as, I'm unsure of your intended meaning, One possibility I can't easily dismiss that springs to mind would change my response, tell me what you mean.
That's not to say it's not racist, sexist, classist, inconsiderate, and poorly phrased, that's not to say that the choice she made didn't upset and harm you, just that it reads as someone saying something without fully considering how you might take it.
Of course one doesn't have to be autistic to do that without consideration of how it might received: that happens sometimes when people are busy, tired, or in a hurry. Doesn't make it any less racist, sexist, etc. Still, one thing people keep telling me is that it's more polite/appropriate to offer less detail; I think if she had just said, "Tell me what you mean by vending machine company," and stopped there, you'd have been a bit puzzled but probably not offended.
So was this impolite? yes! Why are you so offended... probably if she had asked you if anything had changed about your sexual interactions in a considerate way, or just asked you about the vending machine job, you wouldn't have been. So as an autistic person who has offended people by failing to fully understand how they might receive my words, my feeling is that often it is not the actual offense that seems to really bother people, it's the seeming lack of consideration of how you might take it and the severe incongruence of that from the comfort you felt with them.
I hope that helps.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 11:57 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
That's not to say it's not racist, sexist, classist, inconsiderate, and poorly phrased, that's not to say that the choice she made didn't upset and harm you, just that it reads as someone saying something without fully considering how you might take it.
Of course one doesn't have to be autistic to do that without consideration of how it might received: that happens sometimes when people are busy, tired, or in a hurry. Doesn't make it any less racist, sexist, etc. Still, one thing people keep telling me is that it's more polite/appropriate to offer less detail; I think if she had just said, "Tell me what you mean by vending machine company," and stopped there, you'd have been a bit puzzled but probably not offended.
So was this impolite? yes! Why are you so offended... probably if she had asked you if anything had changed about your sexual interactions in a considerate way, or just asked you about the vending machine job, you wouldn't have been. So as an autistic person who has offended people by failing to fully understand how they might receive my words, my feeling is that often it is not the actual offense that seems to really bother people, it's the seeming lack of consideration of how you might take it and the severe incongruence of that from the comfort you felt with them.
I hope that helps.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 11:57 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
She should have just asked for clarification and not made what could be a personal judgement or off-color joke. Either way, it was inappropriate. But no necessarily racist - she may have simply Googled "vending machine sales" and seen than result pop up; after all the Urban Dictionary just seems to be a repository of modern slang, not specific to any race or demographic.
posted by Unsomnambulist at 12:47 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
posted by Unsomnambulist at 12:47 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
> This is her (stupid) attempt at being humorous. In my experience middle aged white people make fun of themselves by showing their misunderstandings of language in this way.
Exactly how is asking OP if they are a sex worker is them "making fun of themselves"? Seriously. Explain it, please. Where is the self-deprecation?
This insane interpretation of the doctor's email somehow getting the most likes on this thread is a classic example of white people distorting reality to defend each other. Every time a person of color describes a specific racist incident, white people you come crawling out of the woodwork with your wild-ass reality-bending theories about whoa whoa whoa, actually that's just how wacky and weird white people are, hahaha, this is how we make fun of ourselves! By calling people of color prostitutes! Aren't we cute?
For shame.
posted by MiraK at 2:43 PM on January 19 [11 favorites]
Exactly how is asking OP if they are a sex worker is them "making fun of themselves"? Seriously. Explain it, please. Where is the self-deprecation?
This insane interpretation of the doctor's email somehow getting the most likes on this thread is a classic example of white people distorting reality to defend each other. Every time a person of color describes a specific racist incident, white people you come crawling out of the woodwork with your wild-ass reality-bending theories about whoa whoa whoa, actually that's just how wacky and weird white people are, hahaha, this is how we make fun of ourselves! By calling people of color prostitutes! Aren't we cute?
For shame.
posted by MiraK at 2:43 PM on January 19 [11 favorites]
Dodging the AI issue as I don't think we can do anything other than speculate.
As others have noted, I don't think referencing Urban Dictionary is inherently racist or a dogwhistle (though if I weren't aware of the website, I would have certainly assumed it was a dogwhistle, which is in and of itself a pretty good reason for your doctor not to do this!).
What is racist, I think, is your doctor feeling like they can either honestly ask or hamfistedly joke about you being a sex worker based on Googling your job and finding that Urban Dictionary page. I don't think they would have done either if you were white. Heck, they probably wouldn't even have Googled if a white person had described their job that way. They would have thought "this patient has a job driving around in a van, putting little potato chip bags in vending machines."
posted by pullayup at 8:11 PM on January 19
As others have noted, I don't think referencing Urban Dictionary is inherently racist or a dogwhistle (though if I weren't aware of the website, I would have certainly assumed it was a dogwhistle, which is in and of itself a pretty good reason for your doctor not to do this!).
What is racist, I think, is your doctor feeling like they can either honestly ask or hamfistedly joke about you being a sex worker based on Googling your job and finding that Urban Dictionary page. I don't think they would have done either if you were white. Heck, they probably wouldn't even have Googled if a white person had described their job that way. They would have thought "this patient has a job driving around in a van, putting little potato chip bags in vending machines."
posted by pullayup at 8:11 PM on January 19
based on Googling your job and finding that Urban Dictionary page
Anybody prepared to say that this is a plausible explanation for what's happened here really needs to provide some plausible Google search string that does find that Urban Dictionary page. I've tried many and not been able to, and judging by some of the answers above I'm far from alone in that.
posted by flabdablet at 8:34 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]
Anybody prepared to say that this is a plausible explanation for what's happened here really needs to provide some plausible Google search string that does find that Urban Dictionary page. I've tried many and not been able to, and judging by some of the answers above I'm far from alone in that.
posted by flabdablet at 8:34 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]
It's not even the first search result on Urban Dictionary's own search for "vending machine".
posted by flabdablet at 11:34 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 11:34 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]
If this happened to me, I would then be worried that she's "translating" everyday words I'm using in ways that I didn't mean, which would be potentially dangerous in a healthcare setting.
That is what strikes me the most. The doctor's statement sounds like she is twisting herself into a pretzel to second-guess the most straightforward statement, like you cannot possibly mean what you say literally. That is othering, and so doubly hurtful and offensive from someone you thought was a trustworthy person who was on your side. I would be hurt and offended hearing this from my doctor.
On a very morbid note, and because you say it seems very out of character for her, I would also wonder a bit whether something might be recently happening to her own brain. Not to give her any sort of "benefit of the doubt" but rather to be on the alert as a patient - if she seems on the whole not her old self that would be one more thing to look out for. But also, people can smile and be charming and hide all sorts of bias behind the smile so this might be just run-of-the-mill racial bias that just peeped from behind the curtain.
posted by M. at 5:22 AM on January 20 [5 favorites]
That is what strikes me the most. The doctor's statement sounds like she is twisting herself into a pretzel to second-guess the most straightforward statement, like you cannot possibly mean what you say literally. That is othering, and so doubly hurtful and offensive from someone you thought was a trustworthy person who was on your side. I would be hurt and offended hearing this from my doctor.
On a very morbid note, and because you say it seems very out of character for her, I would also wonder a bit whether something might be recently happening to her own brain. Not to give her any sort of "benefit of the doubt" but rather to be on the alert as a patient - if she seems on the whole not her old self that would be one more thing to look out for. But also, people can smile and be charming and hide all sorts of bias behind the smile so this might be just run-of-the-mill racial bias that just peeped from behind the curtain.
posted by M. at 5:22 AM on January 20 [5 favorites]
I'm still pondering this every single day, and it's driving me crazy. I expect that your silence on the subject means that you're satisfied to leave the question unanswered and the whole nauseous mystery unexplored. In fact, I think that this comment is probably impertinent because obviously you're under no obligation to ruin your peace of mind merely because I'm ruining mine. But I'm still going to post it because what if it's not impertinent and we could find out the mystery?
Just... if you do ever happen to find out what prompted this doctor to write such an appalling thing to you, it would be a great kindness to post a quick update. If you find out the reason but then interrogate your feelings on the subject and discover that you do not want to do a great kindness, then I hope you will not and I hope you will feel about that completely at peace or perhaps even slightly gleeful. By which I mean: if the idea that the bizarre "microaggression" (let's face it, it was an out-and-out aggression; nothing micro about it) this doctor committed has caused and continues to cause at least one white person to fret and spend pointless time standing in the shower staring at the tiles and ruminating is at all gratifying, then clearly you are the one deserving of that gratification, and I hope you will get every bit of it.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:41 PM on January 30 [8 favorites]
Just... if you do ever happen to find out what prompted this doctor to write such an appalling thing to you, it would be a great kindness to post a quick update. If you find out the reason but then interrogate your feelings on the subject and discover that you do not want to do a great kindness, then I hope you will not and I hope you will feel about that completely at peace or perhaps even slightly gleeful. By which I mean: if the idea that the bizarre "microaggression" (let's face it, it was an out-and-out aggression; nothing micro about it) this doctor committed has caused and continues to cause at least one white person to fret and spend pointless time standing in the shower staring at the tiles and ruminating is at all gratifying, then clearly you are the one deserving of that gratification, and I hope you will get every bit of it.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:41 PM on January 30 [8 favorites]
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Was it impolite of her to reference the urban dictionary as well as make such a crass generalization in such a glib fashion?
Yes!
Why am I offended so much by this?
Because it was offensive!
posted by Toddles at 8:56 PM on January 17 [26 favorites]