How do I stay calm during a scary conversation?
January 13, 2024 9:21 AM Subscribe
It's a conversation with my landlords, who are both kind people in general. They can get pretty fierce though. She gets fiery when she's protecting him, he can get condescending. Conflict scares me quite a bit, and my partner is similar. When we're scared, I get teary and defensive (or contemptuous, but not with these people so far). He gets accusatory and can't stay calm.
We've had some issues about yardwork in the past, but we're generally not antagonistic towards one another. However, over Christmas, water started dripping through the ceiling. We let them know, they apologized, we said it's fine and that we're just worried about the house, and then we were accused of creating a panic because I made an offhand comment about the ceiling coming down...
The problem has been fixed, they reduced December's rent by a fair amount, and things could be okay now. But some slightly unkind words were exchanged, and they've asked us to talk in a note stating they were surprised at our accusations (we don't remember making any).
So, the conversation is in 24 hours. I already feel a bit sick thinking about it.
Are there any tricks people use for this kind of thing? The conflict definitely does not seem big enough for a mediator. But there's a lot at stake because we all live in one big house with just one other family, and the idea is to rely on each other for communal gardening and generally be friendly. We've only lived here for a year and we don't want to move out. So if there's anything I can do to make the conversation successful, please let me know.
We've had some issues about yardwork in the past, but we're generally not antagonistic towards one another. However, over Christmas, water started dripping through the ceiling. We let them know, they apologized, we said it's fine and that we're just worried about the house, and then we were accused of creating a panic because I made an offhand comment about the ceiling coming down...
The problem has been fixed, they reduced December's rent by a fair amount, and things could be okay now. But some slightly unkind words were exchanged, and they've asked us to talk in a note stating they were surprised at our accusations (we don't remember making any).
So, the conversation is in 24 hours. I already feel a bit sick thinking about it.
Are there any tricks people use for this kind of thing? The conflict definitely does not seem big enough for a mediator. But there's a lot at stake because we all live in one big house with just one other family, and the idea is to rely on each other for communal gardening and generally be friendly. We've only lived here for a year and we don't want to move out. So if there's anything I can do to make the conversation successful, please let me know.
It sounds like, from your point of view, everything has been addressed in a satisfactory way - they fixed the ceiling and they reduced your rent for the month - so all good. So, in that case, I think you can just express appreciation - i.e., "thanks for fixing the ceiling and we appreciate the rent reduction" and leave it at that. No conflict to be had! Really, they are the ones who asked for the call, so if there is something more to say, then they will be the ones who say it. So, your agenda should be to (1) express appreciation as above; and (2) listen to whatever else they have to say; and then (3) be ready to react in some manner to whatever they say. Since you don't know what they are going to say, you can't really pre-plan your reaction, except that, if the topic raised is something small, you can react to it on the spot, but if it is something bigger, then you probably want to just listen and then tell them that you'd like a little time to discuss with your partner and then react. I.e., if they are springing something big on you, your best bet is to listen and then get yourself some time before you give a reaction.
posted by Mid at 9:41 AM on January 13 [4 favorites]
posted by Mid at 9:41 AM on January 13 [4 favorites]
What was the offhand comment you made about the ceiling coming down? Did you make it by text, phone, or in person?
I can imagine how that might be a carefree joke made by a tenant, but sound like an accusation to a landlord. The ceiling coming down would be one of the landlord's worst-case scenarios and has an implication of negligence.
It's like saying to a parent, "I noticed your daughter has a bruise on her arm. I was a little worried there! Just want to make sure she won't get taken away soon by Child Protective Services, ha ha! Well, it was nice talking to you, cheers."
This would also explain why they accused you of "creating a panic". If this turns out to be part of the problem, you could tell them, "I made a joke that landed wrong. I was just trying to lighten the mood with a joke, and the joke fell flat. I didn't mean anything else by it."
posted by vienna at 10:20 AM on January 13 [19 favorites]
I can imagine how that might be a carefree joke made by a tenant, but sound like an accusation to a landlord. The ceiling coming down would be one of the landlord's worst-case scenarios and has an implication of negligence.
It's like saying to a parent, "I noticed your daughter has a bruise on her arm. I was a little worried there! Just want to make sure she won't get taken away soon by Child Protective Services, ha ha! Well, it was nice talking to you, cheers."
This would also explain why they accused you of "creating a panic". If this turns out to be part of the problem, you could tell them, "I made a joke that landed wrong. I was just trying to lighten the mood with a joke, and the joke fell flat. I didn't mean anything else by it."
posted by vienna at 10:20 AM on January 13 [19 favorites]
vienna beat me to it. It really sounds like they misunderstood your "glad the ceiling didn't come down" remark as "you space cadets were clearly going to let the house fall down around your ears, huh? Lucky we were here!" That's not what you meant at all, of course. But if you were the landlord and nervous, as a homeowner usually is, that some negligence on your part will cause the total destruction of your ridiculously expensive property, you might be quick to "go there," so to speak, because you're constantly accusing yourself of being unfit to care for a house. Thus it is important to say something like "There was a miscommunication about the problem with the house" and also "neither the problem nor the miscommunication about the problem were anyone's fault." The important thing is, the house had a problem, everybody in the house worked to fix the problem, now the house doesn't have a problem, everybody did well, everybody still likes everybody, what do we want to plant in the garden this spring?
Meanwhile, Since you don't know what they are going to say, you can't really pre-plan your reaction
True, which can feel scary. Maybe to feel more prepared for the unknown, you could deliberately catastrophize--but in a controlled way. You and partner both sit down with lots of paper and red pencils and as fast as you can for three or four minutes write down every awful thing you can possibly think of that they might be planning to say when you talk. Then take a break and run around the house for a minute. Briefly read over what you wrote, and write anything else that occurred to you during the run-around-the-house phase.
Then do some quiet square breathing for a couple of minutes while thinking about the plan to stay calm and polite and express thanks for the repair as well as the mostly great relationship so far.
Then trade catastrophizing brainstorming materials and role play each potential scenario, practicing your calm-no-matter-what responses.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:24 AM on January 13 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile, Since you don't know what they are going to say, you can't really pre-plan your reaction
True, which can feel scary. Maybe to feel more prepared for the unknown, you could deliberately catastrophize--but in a controlled way. You and partner both sit down with lots of paper and red pencils and as fast as you can for three or four minutes write down every awful thing you can possibly think of that they might be planning to say when you talk. Then take a break and run around the house for a minute. Briefly read over what you wrote, and write anything else that occurred to you during the run-around-the-house phase.
Then do some quiet square breathing for a couple of minutes while thinking about the plan to stay calm and polite and express thanks for the repair as well as the mostly great relationship so far.
Then trade catastrophizing brainstorming materials and role play each potential scenario, practicing your calm-no-matter-what responses.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:24 AM on January 13 [3 favorites]
Your landlords sound like extreme people-pleasers and conflict avoiders - the exact type of people who paradoxically end up causing conflict where there is none. Here's my experience with such folks: They start off being incredibly nice to you, they bend over backwards to treat you well, they go above and beyond to make you happy. What they expect from you in return is fawning, effusive, enthusiastic, unremitting praise, constant approval... BUT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE.
You're allowed to say: how amazing they are, wow, just such incredible people, you feel lucky to know them, they are just the perfect _____s [insert role they play in your life], would you look at how hard they work and how far they go to be good _____s? Incredible!
You're not allowed to say: Oh, look, XYZ still needs doing, better get on it! (where XYS is their normal everyday responsibility)? - and you certainly can't make a joke about how dire XYZ is. This will be taken as a grave insult, an accusation of criminal negligence on their part, their feelings will be hurt, you will be labeled ungrateful and untrustworthy and (worst of all) HOSTILE.
You know that scene where Frasier says I. AM. WOUNDED!! - well, that's your landlords right now. They're being drama queens acting like you have stabbed them in the back, because that's what it feels like to them. Your normal, reasonable remark has triggered a literal fight-or-flight reaction in them.
So what can you do to deal with your landlords?
You need to show up and shower them with effusive praise. Like seriously, go way way way overboard (but don't put anything in writing, and take care to make your praise very specifically tied to this issue alone in case they are recording your conversation). For example, you can say, "We are so very grateful for the way you handled this leak! You were extremely professional in how you took care of it. You had it fixed promptly and you gave us a fair discount on our rent. That is an exemplary landlord right there. Our friends are all jealous of our landlord, haha. I just want to say thank you, and I wish all landlords would be as responsible as you were in getting these repairs done. We are so impressed with your handling of this problem. We liked you and trusted you before, but now? We appreciate you even more!"
I'm not joking, just say this whole speech verbatim. Say it like you mean it. This is what they are looking for and this is what will defuse the conflict completely.
While people like your landlord can be a nightmare when rubbed the wrong way, it is also very easy to rub them the right way. Good luck!
posted by MiraK at 10:43 AM on January 13 [18 favorites]
You're allowed to say: how amazing they are, wow, just such incredible people, you feel lucky to know them, they are just the perfect _____s [insert role they play in your life], would you look at how hard they work and how far they go to be good _____s? Incredible!
You're not allowed to say: Oh, look, XYZ still needs doing, better get on it! (where XYS is their normal everyday responsibility)? - and you certainly can't make a joke about how dire XYZ is. This will be taken as a grave insult, an accusation of criminal negligence on their part, their feelings will be hurt, you will be labeled ungrateful and untrustworthy and (worst of all) HOSTILE.
You know that scene where Frasier says I. AM. WOUNDED!! - well, that's your landlords right now. They're being drama queens acting like you have stabbed them in the back, because that's what it feels like to them. Your normal, reasonable remark has triggered a literal fight-or-flight reaction in them.
So what can you do to deal with your landlords?
You need to show up and shower them with effusive praise. Like seriously, go way way way overboard (but don't put anything in writing, and take care to make your praise very specifically tied to this issue alone in case they are recording your conversation). For example, you can say, "We are so very grateful for the way you handled this leak! You were extremely professional in how you took care of it. You had it fixed promptly and you gave us a fair discount on our rent. That is an exemplary landlord right there. Our friends are all jealous of our landlord, haha. I just want to say thank you, and I wish all landlords would be as responsible as you were in getting these repairs done. We are so impressed with your handling of this problem. We liked you and trusted you before, but now? We appreciate you even more!"
I'm not joking, just say this whole speech verbatim. Say it like you mean it. This is what they are looking for and this is what will defuse the conflict completely.
While people like your landlord can be a nightmare when rubbed the wrong way, it is also very easy to rub them the right way. Good luck!
posted by MiraK at 10:43 AM on January 13 [18 favorites]
I've had two apartment floods, my ceiling literally rained. There is nothing wrong with being concerned about that or if the ceiling will hold up after a lot of water. Lots of water can be destructive!
That said, I'd probably apologize a lot for causing a panic, you were just worried, thank you SO MUCH for cleaning it up ASAP, and keep yourself on the downlow.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:03 AM on January 13 [3 favorites]
That said, I'd probably apologize a lot for causing a panic, you were just worried, thank you SO MUCH for cleaning it up ASAP, and keep yourself on the downlow.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:03 AM on January 13 [3 favorites]
Good news: being blamed doesn't mean you need to accept either the blame or the anger behind it. It can help to pretend they are very frustrated pre-teens.
"It sounds like when you heard X, you felt Y."
"What can we do to minimise frustrations for you next time?"
"Is there anything you would like us to do to make amends?"
posted by DarlingBri at 12:23 PM on January 13 [5 favorites]
"It sounds like when you heard X, you felt Y."
"What can we do to minimise frustrations for you next time?"
"Is there anything you would like us to do to make amends?"
posted by DarlingBri at 12:23 PM on January 13 [5 favorites]
being blamed doesn't mean you need to accept either the blame or the anger behind it
This needs to be made into a sampler.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 12:26 PM on January 13 [10 favorites]
This needs to be made into a sampler.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 12:26 PM on January 13 [10 favorites]
I'm not sure if the diagnosis here is correct (might be, I just don't think the given information is enough to tell) but I think the approach is right, at least to start off with: you should absolutely right off the bat act effusively pleased with them and happy to see them, not necessarily in a fawning way but at least in a cheerful and yeah, overboard way, because that creates a sort of reality distortion field of overwhelming friendliness for the entire meeting, and rewrites whatever narrative they've got in their heads.
If they then say "oh but when you said X that was so mean" you say "oh NO, not at ALL, absolutely NOT, we think you're the BEST, etc." And then apologize for their hurt and reiterate how wonderful they are.
That all said: You wrote that your partner "gets accusatory and can't stay calm" and that "some slightly unkind words were exchanged". So beyond them possibly taking the ceiling falling down comment the wrong way, is it possible that even though you and your partner don't remember making any accusations, you nonetheless may have? If they say at this meeting that you or your partner said something rude or hurtful, neither of you should try to deflect or deny - you can say that you don't remember saying it, but you have to say that even so you absolutely apologize, you were very stressed by the situation but that wasn't okay. And generally act horrified that you might have said such a thing.
If they see some "unkind words" as being more serious than you do, don't downplay it - their hurt is their hurt. And if they issued some "unkind words" of their own, either downplay those, or very gently explain that those words hurt you or stressed you out, and you responded defensively, and you shouldn't have and again are very sorry and they don't deserve it because they're such great landlords (and, it sounds like, quasi-housemates?) and you truly are grateful for the care they take of their house and of you.
If that advice sounds right to you, make sure you and your partner are on the same page, and that your partner doesn't lose their cool and get accusatory in the way that you mention.
posted by trig at 12:53 PM on January 13 [5 favorites]
If they then say "oh but when you said X that was so mean" you say "oh NO, not at ALL, absolutely NOT, we think you're the BEST, etc." And then apologize for their hurt and reiterate how wonderful they are.
That all said: You wrote that your partner "gets accusatory and can't stay calm" and that "some slightly unkind words were exchanged". So beyond them possibly taking the ceiling falling down comment the wrong way, is it possible that even though you and your partner don't remember making any accusations, you nonetheless may have? If they say at this meeting that you or your partner said something rude or hurtful, neither of you should try to deflect or deny - you can say that you don't remember saying it, but you have to say that even so you absolutely apologize, you were very stressed by the situation but that wasn't okay. And generally act horrified that you might have said such a thing.
If they see some "unkind words" as being more serious than you do, don't downplay it - their hurt is their hurt. And if they issued some "unkind words" of their own, either downplay those, or very gently explain that those words hurt you or stressed you out, and you responded defensively, and you shouldn't have and again are very sorry and they don't deserve it because they're such great landlords (and, it sounds like, quasi-housemates?) and you truly are grateful for the care they take of their house and of you.
If that advice sounds right to you, make sure you and your partner are on the same page, and that your partner doesn't lose their cool and get accusatory in the way that you mention.
posted by trig at 12:53 PM on January 13 [5 favorites]
If the conversation stays a bit tense, you could agree to communicate concerns that might go pear-shaped through email or text going forward.
I think the best repair for the relationship too is to either relax about the gardening, or if you're the people doing it, prioritize it for a while. It sounds a bit like a situation where an irritant between you all flared up under a more serious crisis, and one way to mitigate that is to remove the irritant.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:06 PM on January 13 [2 favorites]
I think the best repair for the relationship too is to either relax about the gardening, or if you're the people doing it, prioritize it for a while. It sounds a bit like a situation where an irritant between you all flared up under a more serious crisis, and one way to mitigate that is to remove the irritant.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:06 PM on January 13 [2 favorites]
Honestly, the best advice I can share from my own life is to have or borrow a friendly dog who can attend. This happened to me once in a conversation I was dreading once, and it was an AMAZING trick. That dog took all the defensiveness and dread right out of me and the conversation I had been concerned about started with a whole lot of petting and ‘good boy!’
posted by bq at 1:15 PM on January 13 [6 favorites]
posted by bq at 1:15 PM on January 13 [6 favorites]
My advice is to approach this conversation as a detective where you job is to understand their feelings and reactions, so you can prevent them from having them in the future.
So if they say something like, "why did you accuse of not caring about the house or treating you badly?" You can respond with something like, "What makes you think we were trying to accuse you of anything?"
Once you understand their point-of-view or where the misunderstanding took place, you can say something like, "Oh, I'm so sorry, it was not our intention to make you feel X, Y, or Z. How do you think we can communicate better in the future?"
So all of this conversation is about a search for solution so something like this doesn't happen again.
posted by brookeb at 1:52 PM on January 13 [3 favorites]
So if they say something like, "why did you accuse of not caring about the house or treating you badly?" You can respond with something like, "What makes you think we were trying to accuse you of anything?"
Once you understand their point-of-view or where the misunderstanding took place, you can say something like, "Oh, I'm so sorry, it was not our intention to make you feel X, Y, or Z. How do you think we can communicate better in the future?"
So all of this conversation is about a search for solution so something like this doesn't happen again.
posted by brookeb at 1:52 PM on January 13 [3 favorites]
It's good you're thinking this through in advance, and I strongly recommend working with your partner to sketch out your approach and talking points ahead of time. I also get really emotional and defensive when I feel I'm being attacked or unfairly treated, and having a plan for what I want to say already in my metaphorical back pocket always helps me focus and stay less emotional.
If you'd find a practical guide for how to work out what you want to say, DEAR MAN GIVE is a silly acronym for a very useful framework for having difficult conversations, especially ones where you're asking for a particular outcome. I still reference it when I'm preparing for a difficult conversation even after using it and teaching similar techniques for years.
posted by rhiannonstone at 2:22 PM on January 13 [4 favorites]
If you'd find a practical guide for how to work out what you want to say, DEAR MAN GIVE is a silly acronym for a very useful framework for having difficult conversations, especially ones where you're asking for a particular outcome. I still reference it when I'm preparing for a difficult conversation even after using it and teaching similar techniques for years.
posted by rhiannonstone at 2:22 PM on January 13 [4 favorites]
Idk dude the last apartment I lived in the roof got a leak and the landlord failed to address it in a timely manner and the ceiling fell down. Like literally a 2 foot diameter hole in the ceiling, shoomp crunch crumble right down into my living room. Very cool. Definitely one of my top ten rental experiences.
Other people have given good advice for handling this diplomatically. *I will not. I will instead offer myself as your friend, for the purpose of this conversation, should the need arise.
So if you're talking to your landlords and they push back on your "offhand comment" about the ceiling falling down, feel free to be like "oh a friend of mine had a leak in her apartment and her ceiling literally DID fall down, so it's always something I think about when there's a leak!" I'm happy to be the sin eater for your comment, blame it on me.
*ACTUALLY what I would do is send them a note back saying "All good, no need to have a conversation about it! Take care! :)" and then ignore them. The landlord tenant relationship is a business relationship for me, we are not friends. I give you money, you provide me legal shelter, we are done here. Anyway...
posted by phunniemee at 2:28 PM on January 13 [7 favorites]
Other people have given good advice for handling this diplomatically. *I will not. I will instead offer myself as your friend, for the purpose of this conversation, should the need arise.
So if you're talking to your landlords and they push back on your "offhand comment" about the ceiling falling down, feel free to be like "oh a friend of mine had a leak in her apartment and her ceiling literally DID fall down, so it's always something I think about when there's a leak!" I'm happy to be the sin eater for your comment, blame it on me.
*ACTUALLY what I would do is send them a note back saying "All good, no need to have a conversation about it! Take care! :)" and then ignore them. The landlord tenant relationship is a business relationship for me, we are not friends. I give you money, you provide me legal shelter, we are done here. Anyway...
posted by phunniemee at 2:28 PM on January 13 [7 favorites]
If they want to talk, let them talk.
Just take it in and be considered and measured in your responses.
It sounds like they're having an anxiety response of some sort and have decided to spread it to you instead of getting over it. Fine. Listen to what they say. Use mirroring, ie they say "you accused us of whatever" and you say, "I understand now it sounded like we accused you of whatever, that wasn't at all our intent, I was just so afraid there might be damage we can't see that would get worse if we didn't report it promptly*. I was just anxious, and again I'm sorry it came out sounding like an accusation. Please forgive me."
If they want to somehow explain themselves, just let them talk themselves out and give a pre-planned response like, "It's all fine, it's generally legal responsibility of the tenant to alert the landlord to issues that might result in damage to the property as soon as is reasonably possible. We're just wanting to take our responsibility seriously. We'll make sure to do that more clearly in the future so we're not misunderstood."
If they come out of left field with anything heated or accusatory or otherwise trying to start shit, that's when you get out the notebook and pen you've brought and start writing down the words they're using, let them wear themselves out, and then just nod and say, "Okay, well. We will be more succinct in our maintenance requests in the future, we see this is a sensitive subject for you."
Because here's the thing, you can SAY all these words and think "fuck y'all and the horse you rode in on" and then be like, "okay, are we done resolving this now? Is there something else you want us to say or do?" Sit in awkward silence. "Mkay, ciao."
Just do what they want. Don't give them anything but the most prepared and measured response, but there is very little value here in getting into a battle of wills. Obviously don't agree to anything unreasonable, know your rights and obligations as a tenant, and anything beyond that just look at them like they've grown another head and calmly restate what your rights and obligations are as a tenant.
I would recommend wrapping up this conversation with a statement that in the future, any observations about damage or potential damage will be communicated to them by email or writing, dated, with no commentary, just to make sure there are no future "misunderstandings". And then as soon as this conversation is over, send them an email or written letter that the conversation occurred and the agreement was made. People usually learn to control their manipulative shit when you start clearly documenting it.
Also, I mean, the whole conversation might just be "hey, that went badly somehow, let's reset and move forward" and you can calmly respond "excellent, that's great and we agree." You DO have a certain amount of power here, in that you moving out will cost them money and they'll have to actually fix their shit and every time you lose relatively civil tenants you run the risk of the next ones being way more problematic. This might well be where their sentiments are coming from.
*Which is pretty much ALWAYS true with water, once it has seeped through to the point you're aware of it, there's always bad shit behind it.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:16 PM on January 13 [6 favorites]
Just take it in and be considered and measured in your responses.
It sounds like they're having an anxiety response of some sort and have decided to spread it to you instead of getting over it. Fine. Listen to what they say. Use mirroring, ie they say "you accused us of whatever" and you say, "I understand now it sounded like we accused you of whatever, that wasn't at all our intent, I was just so afraid there might be damage we can't see that would get worse if we didn't report it promptly*. I was just anxious, and again I'm sorry it came out sounding like an accusation. Please forgive me."
If they want to somehow explain themselves, just let them talk themselves out and give a pre-planned response like, "It's all fine, it's generally legal responsibility of the tenant to alert the landlord to issues that might result in damage to the property as soon as is reasonably possible. We're just wanting to take our responsibility seriously. We'll make sure to do that more clearly in the future so we're not misunderstood."
If they come out of left field with anything heated or accusatory or otherwise trying to start shit, that's when you get out the notebook and pen you've brought and start writing down the words they're using, let them wear themselves out, and then just nod and say, "Okay, well. We will be more succinct in our maintenance requests in the future, we see this is a sensitive subject for you."
Because here's the thing, you can SAY all these words and think "fuck y'all and the horse you rode in on" and then be like, "okay, are we done resolving this now? Is there something else you want us to say or do?" Sit in awkward silence. "Mkay, ciao."
Just do what they want. Don't give them anything but the most prepared and measured response, but there is very little value here in getting into a battle of wills. Obviously don't agree to anything unreasonable, know your rights and obligations as a tenant, and anything beyond that just look at them like they've grown another head and calmly restate what your rights and obligations are as a tenant.
I would recommend wrapping up this conversation with a statement that in the future, any observations about damage or potential damage will be communicated to them by email or writing, dated, with no commentary, just to make sure there are no future "misunderstandings". And then as soon as this conversation is over, send them an email or written letter that the conversation occurred and the agreement was made. People usually learn to control their manipulative shit when you start clearly documenting it.
Also, I mean, the whole conversation might just be "hey, that went badly somehow, let's reset and move forward" and you can calmly respond "excellent, that's great and we agree." You DO have a certain amount of power here, in that you moving out will cost them money and they'll have to actually fix their shit and every time you lose relatively civil tenants you run the risk of the next ones being way more problematic. This might well be where their sentiments are coming from.
*Which is pretty much ALWAYS true with water, once it has seeped through to the point you're aware of it, there's always bad shit behind it.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:16 PM on January 13 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm really grateful for all these excellent responses. I appreciate the advice on staying calm, but also the insight on my comment just sounding very scary to the person who's responsible for all this. In retrospect, I shouldn't have said it. I guess I wanted to be reassured because the landlord seemed to be brushing it off and hadn't even looked at the ceiling. It was Christmas Day, nobody had time for any of it, and everyone was tense. I also shouldn't have responded with the "Woah" message. I think we need to strive to be more professional with these people.
To answer the questions, we mostly communicated in writing. The first problematic exchange was this one between me and the landlord:
"Don’t worry about it, we’re okay. We set up buckets and laid out blankets because a few new spots appeared and there could be more. But what concerns us is that the ceiling will come down at some point - isn’t that right?"
"The assumption that the ceiling would come down is completely unlikely. My God, it's dripping and that's annoying of course, but no reason for such scenarios."
"Woah, I was just asking."
"And I simply replied that there was no reason for this fear. But well, if it's that worrying, I'll have to take a look for myself if that’s possible."
The unkind spoken words were, first of all, my partner saying "Your family agrees with us." He said this because the landlords' son had sent a message saying he's sorry about his dad's response. Landlords probably don't know about that message, which is why they took the statement as a more general point, not just pertaining to the leaking ceiling. I'm guessing here, but pretty confident because, a week later, the landlady sent my partner a message saying only "We're not good cop and bad cop, please don't make us out to be."
The other unkind words, referenced on the note and so apparently remembered well, were my partner saying "It's your house!" The landlord took this to mean that he's putting the responsibility for the house on the tenants. What my partner meant, though, was just that we only messaged about the problem again because it's his house, and we're contractually obligated. Not because we were panicked or greatly annoyed in any way.
Thanks again. I feel a little more prepared and a lot more supported, and those together are reducing my anxiety.
posted by toucan at 4:15 PM on January 13
To answer the questions, we mostly communicated in writing. The first problematic exchange was this one between me and the landlord:
"Don’t worry about it, we’re okay. We set up buckets and laid out blankets because a few new spots appeared and there could be more. But what concerns us is that the ceiling will come down at some point - isn’t that right?"
"The assumption that the ceiling would come down is completely unlikely. My God, it's dripping and that's annoying of course, but no reason for such scenarios."
"Woah, I was just asking."
"And I simply replied that there was no reason for this fear. But well, if it's that worrying, I'll have to take a look for myself if that’s possible."
The unkind spoken words were, first of all, my partner saying "Your family agrees with us." He said this because the landlords' son had sent a message saying he's sorry about his dad's response. Landlords probably don't know about that message, which is why they took the statement as a more general point, not just pertaining to the leaking ceiling. I'm guessing here, but pretty confident because, a week later, the landlady sent my partner a message saying only "We're not good cop and bad cop, please don't make us out to be."
The other unkind words, referenced on the note and so apparently remembered well, were my partner saying "It's your house!" The landlord took this to mean that he's putting the responsibility for the house on the tenants. What my partner meant, though, was just that we only messaged about the problem again because it's his house, and we're contractually obligated. Not because we were panicked or greatly annoyed in any way.
Thanks again. I feel a little more prepared and a lot more supported, and those together are reducing my anxiety.
posted by toucan at 4:15 PM on January 13
The unkind spoken words were, first of all, my partner saying "Your family agrees with us." He said this because the landlords' son had sent a message saying he's sorry about his dad's response. Landlords probably don't know about that message
Hmm, that's kind of weird? Like, how did the landlords' son get pulled into this? If your partner was complaining to the son behind his parents' back, that seems (without knowing the intricacies of the relationships you all have) kind of inappropriate.
To be honest, the tone I get from you two based on the messages is kind of antagonistic and overly personal, so yeah, if it's not intended, I would go in pretty apologetically and reassuringly.
It kind of sounds like because you all live more or less with each other (if I'm understanding right) you and your partner made the mistake of treating this couple less like landlords and more along the lines of peers or roomies. So yeah, like you said: you can't forget that landlord-tenant relationships are ideally either strictly civil/professional or civil+friendly, but you're not friends or equals - you're in a very delicate business relationship. Sarcasm, aggressiveness, emotion where there needn't be - escalating things, in general - I'd stay away from those in favor of assuming good will on their part wherever possible, and communicating accordingly. Again, treat them like clients or skip level bosses or the like - people you ideally want to be civil and diplomatic and de-escalating with in order to maintain a good relationship. (Unless they're truly out of line, which doesn't sound like the case here - and even then you want to do things by the book.)
Everything goes double for text-based communication.
posted by trig at 4:46 PM on January 13 [9 favorites]
Hmm, that's kind of weird? Like, how did the landlords' son get pulled into this? If your partner was complaining to the son behind his parents' back, that seems (without knowing the intricacies of the relationships you all have) kind of inappropriate.
To be honest, the tone I get from you two based on the messages is kind of antagonistic and overly personal, so yeah, if it's not intended, I would go in pretty apologetically and reassuringly.
It kind of sounds like because you all live more or less with each other (if I'm understanding right) you and your partner made the mistake of treating this couple less like landlords and more along the lines of peers or roomies. So yeah, like you said: you can't forget that landlord-tenant relationships are ideally either strictly civil/professional or civil+friendly, but you're not friends or equals - you're in a very delicate business relationship. Sarcasm, aggressiveness, emotion where there needn't be - escalating things, in general - I'd stay away from those in favor of assuming good will on their part wherever possible, and communicating accordingly. Again, treat them like clients or skip level bosses or the like - people you ideally want to be civil and diplomatic and de-escalating with in order to maintain a good relationship. (Unless they're truly out of line, which doesn't sound like the case here - and even then you want to do things by the book.)
Everything goes double for text-based communication.
posted by trig at 4:46 PM on January 13 [9 favorites]
Yeah, I’d say to be more warm, formal, professional, and distant. It sounds like the garden stuff is also very personal but keep things crisp. I can see why they read your comment about the ceiling as an escalation. Is it possible to call instead of text? It can be easy to misread tone in text. In general, stick to facts stated directly. If one of you starts to get irritated, the other should pick up the phone.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:05 PM on January 13
posted by bluedaisy at 6:05 PM on January 13
Also, yeah, in the same text message, you said “don’t worry about it” and then “won’t the ceiling come down.” So that was a mixed message. It might be better to express concerns directly and not tell them what to do or feel. And if you are worried, say, “I am worried that the ceiling might come down.”
You know that thing about using “I” statements? Try to do that and also make direct requests. “It’s your house” and “don’t worry about it” aren’t really helping. So more like, “We are very concerned about the dripping ceiling. Can you please take a look?”
posted by bluedaisy at 6:11 PM on January 13 [2 favorites]
You know that thing about using “I” statements? Try to do that and also make direct requests. “It’s your house” and “don’t worry about it” aren’t really helping. So more like, “We are very concerned about the dripping ceiling. Can you please take a look?”
posted by bluedaisy at 6:11 PM on January 13 [2 favorites]
You all maybe did some unintentional escalation here. Deep breaths. It’ll be okay. The thing to do is be more direct.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:12 PM on January 13
posted by bluedaisy at 6:12 PM on January 13
Yeah, reading the actual texts and the part about the landlords' son, they've done some less than optimal stuff, but personally go in with an apology, something like
"Because we all live in the same house I think I've been communicating with you in a 'looser' way, like I would with roommates, and I've looked it over and regret it. I shouldn't have brought up your family or joked about the ceiling coming down, and in the future I'll communicate with you in a more professional, factual way. We really like this house and this situation, and we're sorry about the communication on that topic -- can we have a reset?"
If they then want to go on about it in an annoying way I'd do my best to just nod, take notes, and let it pass on by. This isn't a friendship and you don't have to be right. Hopefully, you just have to pay your rent and, in return, have a functioning apartment.
Crossing fingers for you that it goes well!
posted by hungrytiger at 6:21 PM on January 13 [2 favorites]
"Because we all live in the same house I think I've been communicating with you in a 'looser' way, like I would with roommates, and I've looked it over and regret it. I shouldn't have brought up your family or joked about the ceiling coming down, and in the future I'll communicate with you in a more professional, factual way. We really like this house and this situation, and we're sorry about the communication on that topic -- can we have a reset?"
If they then want to go on about it in an annoying way I'd do my best to just nod, take notes, and let it pass on by. This isn't a friendship and you don't have to be right. Hopefully, you just have to pay your rent and, in return, have a functioning apartment.
Crossing fingers for you that it goes well!
posted by hungrytiger at 6:21 PM on January 13 [2 favorites]
I would come in like "thank you for setting up this meeting so we can clear the air. :) I didn't feel good about how things went and as I was preparing I looked back over our text exchange and realized that they might have come across in a way I didn't intend. I forget sometimes that on text, people can't hear your tone of voice, for one thing. I didn't mean to stress you out! And in general I don't think we communicated well."
Don't get me wrong, their communication was not great either! ("My God" ?!?) But yeah. The other thing to consider is that it's super stressful for you both. For you, it's where you live and all your stuff. It's very personal and everpresent. And for them it's some unknown quantity of money, anywhere between $300 and what, $20k or more, losing a tenant while repairs occur, can't pay their mortgage, foreclosure? So their replies probably felt like minimizing something that was really a problem to you, (when they were probably more like anxiety management for them), and your attempts to say "hey please do deal with this ASAP" might've raised the spectre of high expenditures, mold abatement, legal liability, insurance claims, foreclosure... in at least some small way. So it was stressful all around.
posted by slidell at 6:51 PM on January 13 [4 favorites]
Don't get me wrong, their communication was not great either! ("My God" ?!?) But yeah. The other thing to consider is that it's super stressful for you both. For you, it's where you live and all your stuff. It's very personal and everpresent. And for them it's some unknown quantity of money, anywhere between $300 and what, $20k or more, losing a tenant while repairs occur, can't pay their mortgage, foreclosure? So their replies probably felt like minimizing something that was really a problem to you, (when they were probably more like anxiety management for them), and your attempts to say "hey please do deal with this ASAP" might've raised the spectre of high expenditures, mold abatement, legal liability, insurance claims, foreclosure... in at least some small way. So it was stressful all around.
posted by slidell at 6:51 PM on January 13 [4 favorites]
Regarding how to make the meeting go well, preparation helps a lot. What will they say and what will you say in return? Also, knowing what your core message is and returning to it as much as possible is also helpful.
If people push your buttons, there are ways to avoid being reactive. For me these generally involve visualizations that separate me slightly -- "I'm on a cloud and what these folks say to my body doesn't need to hurt my feelings at all," " I'm in a bubble of protective positive energy that converts what I hear into the useful message I need to get while absorbing (/blocking) anything hurtful, one that only allows me to say useful things in reply."
For your own preparation, I would come in with a plan for what to say if they ask you to move out, such as to say you understand but would it be possible for you all to have a cooling off period and see if you can get the relationship back on good footing now that you've had this discussion? This is partially as a delay tactic but maybe things could blow over.
Best of luck, let us know how it goes if you're able to!
posted by slidell at 8:36 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
If people push your buttons, there are ways to avoid being reactive. For me these generally involve visualizations that separate me slightly -- "I'm on a cloud and what these folks say to my body doesn't need to hurt my feelings at all," " I'm in a bubble of protective positive energy that converts what I hear into the useful message I need to get while absorbing (/blocking) anything hurtful, one that only allows me to say useful things in reply."
For your own preparation, I would come in with a plan for what to say if they ask you to move out, such as to say you understand but would it be possible for you all to have a cooling off period and see if you can get the relationship back on good footing now that you've had this discussion? This is partially as a delay tactic but maybe things could blow over.
Best of luck, let us know how it goes if you're able to!
posted by slidell at 8:36 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
I guess I'm on the side of being mindful of your tenant rights and responsibilities. You are paying them for an habitable environment with legal boundaries to that relationship. You are not your landlords' therapist and shouldn't really have to take their mindset into consideration beyond staying within your own legal boundaries as a tenant.
You are paying for the right to live there and should pay appropriate respect and consideration to the property owners in order to facilitate the relationship. I wouldn't take on any responsibility whatsoever for their mindset, their 'hurt' feelings or whatever shade they may throw.
Stay within your lane and be mindful of not trying to be jokey with them, they seem to lack a sense of humor. Pay the rent on time, take care of the property, and get along with your neighbors and landlord...that's all you them, nothing more. Sure, pay them a compliment if that greases the wheels, but take care of your own self and don't get sucked into some drama. It's not your problem.
posted by diode at 9:58 PM on January 13 [4 favorites]
You are paying for the right to live there and should pay appropriate respect and consideration to the property owners in order to facilitate the relationship. I wouldn't take on any responsibility whatsoever for their mindset, their 'hurt' feelings or whatever shade they may throw.
Stay within your lane and be mindful of not trying to be jokey with them, they seem to lack a sense of humor. Pay the rent on time, take care of the property, and get along with your neighbors and landlord...that's all you them, nothing more. Sure, pay them a compliment if that greases the wheels, but take care of your own self and don't get sucked into some drama. It's not your problem.
posted by diode at 9:58 PM on January 13 [4 favorites]
Practical tip: if you want to respond (to keep the conversation going) but aren't sure what to say, 'oh' tends to go over reasonably well. (That's assuming you say it in a tone that matches your good intentions.)
(I learned/misapplied this from
How to Talk so Kids Will Listen...And Listen So Kids Will Talk and yeah, it works on adults too.)
posted by demi-octopus at 11:33 PM on January 13 [2 favorites]
(I learned/misapplied this from
How to Talk so Kids Will Listen...And Listen So Kids Will Talk and yeah, it works on adults too.)
posted by demi-octopus at 11:33 PM on January 13 [2 favorites]
When my ceiling fell in at one place I was renting, it progressed fairly quickly from “a couple of leaks” to sheets of water over the course of a few days. There was time for the landlord to deal with it, but not time for them to dither. The rate of progression of a water leak depends on the source of the water, which one can’t know until one starts looking into the problem. So your water leak issue was a potentially serious and thus urgent maintenance issue. Folks above have lots of good advice for smoothing things over, but don’t minimize that detail while you are smoothing please.
posted by eviemath at 5:45 AM on January 14 [9 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 5:45 AM on January 14 [9 favorites]
Do your landlords prefer direct communication (Ask culture instead of Guess culture)? Or are they from a different cultural background than you?
I ask because your messages rely on a fair amount of shared cultural context. As an American, I can understand that your first message "Don't worry about us..." does not literally mean that there is no problem and that they should forget about it, but that you are signaling friendliness. I have relatives in another country who use a non-American Guess Culture, and they would wonder if your message is intended as a softer version of this:
"Don't worry about us, but as your friend, I want to let you know that this is your house and you are not living up to your responsibilities. After all, the ceiling might come down. Any tenant in our situation would agree that you are shirking your duties. Even your own family agrees with us. Of course a court of law would too. Anyway, I'm just asking and am not taking stronger action... yet."
A few of the phrasings in your landlord's messages remind me of how Germans speak. In case they are from a direct culture like that, it can be frustrating to receive messages that clearly have subtext and a deeper level of meaning, but it's not clear what that meaning is.
Even if they are not from a direct culture but are from a different Guess culture, they will still struggle with deciphering your subtext.
If this might be the reason, I recommend using a direct style, "When I sent those messages, I wanted to signal that I was very worried about the house and also that I valued our positive relationship." I would not recommend being over-the-top positive ("You are the best landlords! I've had no issues whatsoever!") as others suggested, because that's clearly not true and could just drive them into a new round of wildly guessing at your hidden meaning.
posted by vienna at 8:40 AM on January 14 [4 favorites]
I ask because your messages rely on a fair amount of shared cultural context. As an American, I can understand that your first message "Don't worry about us..." does not literally mean that there is no problem and that they should forget about it, but that you are signaling friendliness. I have relatives in another country who use a non-American Guess Culture, and they would wonder if your message is intended as a softer version of this:
"Don't worry about us, but as your friend, I want to let you know that this is your house and you are not living up to your responsibilities. After all, the ceiling might come down. Any tenant in our situation would agree that you are shirking your duties. Even your own family agrees with us. Of course a court of law would too. Anyway, I'm just asking and am not taking stronger action... yet."
A few of the phrasings in your landlord's messages remind me of how Germans speak. In case they are from a direct culture like that, it can be frustrating to receive messages that clearly have subtext and a deeper level of meaning, but it's not clear what that meaning is.
Even if they are not from a direct culture but are from a different Guess culture, they will still struggle with deciphering your subtext.
If this might be the reason, I recommend using a direct style, "When I sent those messages, I wanted to signal that I was very worried about the house and also that I valued our positive relationship." I would not recommend being over-the-top positive ("You are the best landlords! I've had no issues whatsoever!") as others suggested, because that's clearly not true and could just drive them into a new round of wildly guessing at your hidden meaning.
posted by vienna at 8:40 AM on January 14 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Well, it went really badly. I was able to stay calm by using the techniques recommended here (I also took an antihistamine, which probably helped). But as soon as we came in, we were told that the landlord's son wants our apartment, and we need to be out in three months. I am so sad.
Still, thank you very much for taking the time to think this through with me. I can use the techniques for other difficult conversations.
posted by toucan at 5:43 PM on January 14 [6 favorites]
Still, thank you very much for taking the time to think this through with me. I can use the techniques for other difficult conversations.
posted by toucan at 5:43 PM on January 14 [6 favorites]
Well, that took a totally unexpected turn that nobody could have planned for. I'm sorry to hear that for you.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:15 PM on January 14 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:15 PM on January 14 [2 favorites]
They ginned that whole thing up and added a ton of unnecessary suspense and emotional lurches to what was going to be very bad news for you guys even had they delivered it kindly. What a pair. This definitely sucks very much, but at least you're better off without having to deal with them anymore.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:05 AM on January 15 [5 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 8:05 AM on January 15 [5 favorites]
Oh no, I'm sorry. You might be entitled to relocation benefits, especially if you're in a Just Cause Eviction jurisdiction. Just Cause means "you can't evict someone for no reason or to raise the rent; there has to be a fair reason," and often one of the circumstances in which eviction is allowed is for "owner move in," i.e., for landlords to move in or have one of their closest family members move in.
You'll have to look for exceptions if you're even in an area with this law or ordinance. Sometimes all of this doesn't apply if you live inside the same unit (i.e. renting a bedroom) or on the same property (I.e. the other half of a duplex), in a single family residence (freestanding house), or in a building that's fairly new. I would Google "relocation benefits [your jurisdiction]" and "relocation benefits [your state]." If you find one, look for exemptions for "owner-occupied" residences that might apply.
These people aren't handling this in a professional way, to say the least. "They've asked us to talk in a note stating they were surprised at our accusations..." That's not the way to tell someone "unfortunately we need to ask you to move out so that our son can move in." This could have been handled more gently and without a few days of thinking about all of this.
Back to the legal stuff, that framing also raises questions about whether the son moving in is a fig leaf, if you do live in a place with JCE. Those ordinances I mentioned above generally require the person to move in within a certain amount of time and stay for a certain amount of time, so that someone couldn't get around it by moving in for a week then moving out and re-renting it to someone else, or by saying their relative "changed their mind." So if any of this does apply to you, you could try to stay in touch to see what comes to pass.
posted by slidell at 9:29 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
You'll have to look for exceptions if you're even in an area with this law or ordinance. Sometimes all of this doesn't apply if you live inside the same unit (i.e. renting a bedroom) or on the same property (I.e. the other half of a duplex), in a single family residence (freestanding house), or in a building that's fairly new. I would Google "relocation benefits [your jurisdiction]" and "relocation benefits [your state]." If you find one, look for exemptions for "owner-occupied" residences that might apply.
These people aren't handling this in a professional way, to say the least. "They've asked us to talk in a note stating they were surprised at our accusations..." That's not the way to tell someone "unfortunately we need to ask you to move out so that our son can move in." This could have been handled more gently and without a few days of thinking about all of this.
Back to the legal stuff, that framing also raises questions about whether the son moving in is a fig leaf, if you do live in a place with JCE. Those ordinances I mentioned above generally require the person to move in within a certain amount of time and stay for a certain amount of time, so that someone couldn't get around it by moving in for a week then moving out and re-renting it to someone else, or by saying their relative "changed their mind." So if any of this does apply to you, you could try to stay in touch to see what comes to pass.
posted by slidell at 9:29 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
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But what I think is REALLY making you feel sick is the idea of being in the room with all these conflicting emotions and conversational approaches. You need to put up a force field around yourself (figuratively of course) so that all of that bounces away from you. It is NOT your job to manage everyone's feelings in this conversation, only your own. If the man is condescending and the woman is firey and your partner is testy... well, you just have to let them be those things. Keep an even keel yourself and wrap it up as soon as feasible.
posted by nkknkk at 9:33 AM on January 13 [8 favorites]