Yes, I JUST said that. WTF.

January 3, 2024 12:07 PM

I'm leading a work project. When I present ideas in regards to the project to three specific managers, they often reject my ideas. But then they provide a "solution" which is exactly what I had just suggested. It's driving me wild. It's really gnawing at me and I'm feeling stupid. I even intentionally ask "anything I can clarify?" before the rejection. I've never had this happen to me and for these three people to keep doing this is just blowing my mind. Is there anything I can do?

The three people are the VP of our department (f), my manager (m), and a manager (m) I dotted-line report to.

I used to explain things verbally. But perhaps I talked fast? So I slowed it down and present things in simple terms. That didn't help. I now present things with some sort of printed out aid, such as a slide or a graphic, to help drive my point across. I have only a few times replied "Yes, just like I was saying... and then elaborate." But that hasn't much of a difference. I feel stupid, and honestly, it's been a hit to my self-esteem. As always, you guys are the best, and appreciate any and all advice you have for me.

posted by xicana63 to Human Relations (24 answers total)

I think if you are very careful with your tone, you can say something like, "That sounds similar to what I was suggesting, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding you and you want [xyz=something slightly off from what you proposed]?" If they say, "No, I want [abc=what you proposed]," you say, "OK, great, [abc] is what I was proposing. Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page."

"As I was just saying" is loaded phrase to use. What you want to be conveying is that you think you are both proposing the same thing, but are concerned because they seem to think you're proposing something else, and you want to make sure you understand *their* directions.

People will tell you not to worry about this kind of thing and, in minor situations, it doesn't matter, but if your superiors consistently think they're having to overrule your proposals and direct some other course of action, it can't be great for your reputation.
posted by praemunire at 12:15 PM on January 3 [34 favorites]

The traditional solution to this problem is to find a cis white male ally on your team whom you can signal when these things happen, so that he can say, "Ah, okay, so we're going with xicana's proposal, that's a great idea," or "Yes, xicana explained her plan pretty well, I'm on board," or "It's a great proposal. So, xicana, how about you and I can sync up to run the numbers on your idea?"
posted by MiraK at 12:25 PM on January 3 [19 favorites]

I've learned to just excitedly compliment them on their awesome ideas and derive happiness from seeing things I wanted done get done. The first couple times this has happened I hated it so much, but then I realized that credit really doesn't matter. And _really_ you aren't stupid. They're parroting back what you said because you said it and it was good. That's not stupid at all.

If you can't get past not receiving credit and being treated/managed poorly, you probably need to find a new place. But if you can internally decide that this is your place and that you are actually doing a really great job because you're suggesting ideas that are happening and helping, then maybe you'll be ok.

Some managers are shitty people.
posted by cmm at 12:28 PM on January 3

I think this is super important for your reputation and that it's crucial for you to solve it. I suggest asking this at Ask a Manager because she always has smart advice about queries like these.
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:30 PM on January 3 [12 favorites]

Your attempts to improve your communication are focused on the wrong party. They are the ones who are communicating poorly.

Just be straightforward. “What are the differences between what you’re suggesting and my proposal?” This is a totally valid question to ask from a professional development perspective. It’s possible there IS something you’re missing. But if not, this is a good way to get them to maybe realize they are steamrolling you with your own ideas.
posted by TurnKey at 12:45 PM on January 3 [33 favorites]

I'm super curious to know what the rejection looks like. Do they explicitly say, "That is a bad idea" or something similar? It sounds like they are building on or adapting your idea, or just straight up parroting it, and so I'm wondering if they are explicitly saying no to you, or not giving you credit, or just talking with the sort of blustering confidence that minimizes your work.

To be clear, I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm just really curious about how these conversations are going. I know some people who have an almost knee-jerk "no" response to so many things, especially coming from certain people, even if it's a good idea that they end up using.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:53 PM on January 3 [1 favorite]

I've often been there.

Could it be that these higher-ups want you to be more deferential to their knowledge and experience? Would it make sense to come up with 2 or 3 solutions with pros and cons, and let them pick (even though it's clear which one is best)? Or would it make sense to run your solution past one of them before the meeting and ask for input? How often do you say, "what do you think?" to them?

These gestures might seem to represent lack of confidence in your ideas. But it doesn't have to mean that.

Gestures like these can be a sign of respect to the management team. Some managers need their authority respected more than others do. If you can play along with the charade that they are "mentoring" you and "teaching" you these great ideas (that you already thought of), they will be proud of you and boost you into further opportunities (which you may have to pretend like you couldn't have gotten on your own, if you want these folks to continue to champion you).
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 12:54 PM on January 3 [3 favorites]

You don't mention the gender of the people involved, but in my experience this is very often something men do to women who are younger than they are. Learning how to navigate this is very important, and I've always handled it by finding allies who can point out when it is happening, in the moment as someone upthread described. You could also consider whether your manager (who is one of the offenders) might be a good person to discuss this with, and whether you can convert them from offender to ally.
posted by OrangeDisk at 12:54 PM on January 3

OP mentioned the gender in parentheses in the ask.
posted by mxjudyliza at 1:21 PM on January 3 [1 favorite]

Agree that "to clarify your idea for me, how is it different from what I proposed earlier" is the right solution.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:31 PM on January 3 [1 favorite]

"I'm concerned we're not communicating effectively here, so can you all help me understand the differences between my proposal and yours? This isn't the first time this has happened and I feel like we could be better aligned."

If your manager is generally a good ally, you might go to them first and discuss. Pretend you're certain this is just a misunderstanding or vocabulary problem and it makes you uneasy that there seems to be such a disconnect in communication over and over again, and you're afraid it's a risk to the project that you can't seem to get on the same page with them or that they are perceiving you as not being on the same page.

Use the word "risk", specifically.

It is fine that you're confused because this is confusing. Forcing a discussion on "what is different between what I just said and what you just said" is an appropriate step or, if there IS some kind of disconnect, it's going to bite the project in the ass later. And if it's not a disconnect, you've sideways called them out but made it all about project health and not credit-hoarding.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:33 PM on January 3 [9 favorites]

It depends on your office culture if this is the right tone, but I would do a very kind and friendly "oh shoot did I miss something?" Sort of like this:

Me: I propose we purchase ducks instead of geese for this client based on this data I just presented. Here is a handout of that data and why we should purchase those ducks.

Boss: Absolutely not!!! We need to purchase ducks, not geese.

Me: Yes, I agree completely. My bad, I thought that's exactly what I said. Oh and look...here on this paper I handed you it said that as well. Did I misspeak? I wonder how I came across as saying something else.
posted by violetish at 1:43 PM on January 3 [1 favorite]

IMO, it's a waste of time to sarcastically usurp your boss -they don't actually care that you came up with them first - if they did they wouldn't steal them from you.

You have 4 options:
1) don't offer any solutions. Ask them to come up with their own - they seem to be leaders over you -make them lead.

2) Go around by not telling them what you are actually doing. give really generic status updates which don't really indicate daily-type decisions you are making

3) hope that by correcting them they see you are the one coming up with ideas.

4) consider maybe the ideas you are coming up with are so generic, they are owner-less, in a zen kind of way. hey we are hungry - it's my idea "to go eat lunch" is a kind of owner-less idea.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:51 PM on January 3

I wonder if they think they are accepting your proposal, but their language isn’t clear - they start their comments with their hesitations, but come back around to the original proposal and essentially agree with you. Meanwhile you are mostly hearing the hesitations/rejections, and they are mostly hearing/remembering the agreement.

I’m not in the room and don’t know! Just one possible read on the situation. Either way, it sounds like you’re coming up with great ideas - you should be very proud of that!
posted by samthemander at 2:18 PM on January 3 [5 favorites]

My observation with senior leaders is that they want to offer advice, that's how they see themselves as adding value to the project. So in your presentation, are you giving them a space to offer advice other than at the end? One model of what's happening here is you describe the problem and proceed to your solution, but they've stopped listening because they're thinking about the problem themselves. They come up with a solution and are excited about it, so they reflexively dismiss the thing you just said so they can give their own idea, which happens to be the same as what you just said but they weren't paying attention.

Ok, so what to do about it?

First off, do you have to have these meetings? It's not clear from your question whether these managers ever have good advice, but one idea is to convert the meetings to emails, where you say "I've discovered problem X, which I'm going to handle by Y, please let me know if you have any suggestions."

Assuming you need the meetings, another approach is to be more mindful about giving them a chance to talk. Can you describe the problem first and then ask them for feedback on the problem before you talk solution at all? Or can you ask them for solutions before you present yours? There's also the battlechess duck tactic, where you present a solution with an obvious flaw for management to contribute by fixing, but that kind of strategy seems like it will only work if the manager is listening to your proposal at all.
posted by inkyz at 2:46 PM on January 3 [3 favorites]

Don't offer too many specifics in meetings. get it on email. This was happening to my GF in "trouble shooting" meetings and she caught on pretty quick.

Switched from: "This is the practical solution I'll walk you through it.

To: " I have an idea, let me flesh it out I'll email the group ASAP."

created a trail.
posted by Max Power at 4:07 PM on January 3 [3 favorites]

It's only a thankless job/task if you are expecting thanks.

If the reason you want them to say "That sounds terrific; go for it" is because you think it will help with a promotion or salary or your career, I would use the script that praemunire suggested in the first answer, but otherwise, I would just be happy that you ideas are being implemented.

Whether the managers say it explicitly or not, I am pretty sure they know that you suggested the solution and that you are doing a good job. Is it a requirement to present the solution to the managers before implementing it, or can you just implement it? Maybe, at this point in your career at the firm, they just want you to implement it. I have been at the top of the pyramid (COO) and if you showed me the first few time that you seemed to have a good head on your shoulders, I would appreciate you taking initiative rather than scheduling time out of my day to show me that you know what you are doing.

If the meetings are necessary, I would lay out your plan in an email before the meeting with a disclaimer that in the interest of time, you are laying out your plan in this email and will answer questions or take suggestions when you meet. Send the email an hour before the meeting.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:16 PM on January 3 [2 favorites]

Men often do this to women, and White people often do this to People of Color. If your username is an indication of your ethnicity, that would be my guess about what's going on. Regardless, if there are other people present who can do the ally thing with identifying it as your idea and then pivoting to you ("Yes, that sounds like what xicana63 just said. Xicana63, how do you see ABC working with that?"), that could help. You could also name the issue ("I notice that the last few meetings, I've presented ideas that were rejected until someone else presented the same idea," then just let that sit there until one of them responds), which might make them more aware of the pattern, but it's also totally reasonable not to want to put yourself in that situation. Again, if you have an ally in the meetings, that can be something they can do.
posted by lapis at 4:52 PM on January 3 [1 favorite]

Whether the managers say it explicitly or not, I am pretty sure they know that you suggested the solution and that you are doing a good job.

Unfortunately, if xicana63 is either a woman or a POC or both (as the username suggests, but I don't want to presume), this is far from assured.
posted by praemunire at 4:59 PM on January 3 [12 favorites]

I’m going to nth the suggestion of “I think your idea sounds great, but just to help me understand [or implement it, or move the project forward correctly], could you describe how that differs from what you understood my proposal to be?” The key, though, isn’t to try to put them in their place, it’s to give them the benefit of the doubt and actually understand what they are thinking. It might also be easier to do one-on-one after a meeting where this occurs, depending on the tone of the group.

You seem very convinced that they are just not listening, but it’s also worth considering that — just like you — they aren’t stupid and there is some disconnect you aren’t seeing. Perhaps they misunderstood something you said without knowing it. Or maybe they care about some detail that seems entirely equivalent to you, or else something you assumed to be the case but they did not. Maybe they don’t even think of what they are saying as rejecting your idea at all, and are just building on it with things you found obvious. Or maybe it’s just sexism and they won’t offer an answer that makes sense to you at all. But if it’s gnawing at you, I think it’s important to try to understand where it’s coming from before you decide how to respond to it.
posted by Schismatic at 5:08 PM on January 3 [1 favorite]

+1 to reviewing and giving time to talk or comment. It can help with this phenomenon below:

I know people who literally cant grasp an idea until they have spoken it. Until they hear themselves say it, it wasnt real because it wasnt understood or processed in full by their brainboxes. When they repeat it as if it was theirs - it actually is. Because it is pieced together from when they heard it but could not process the whole thing at once. By the time they digest it and rebuild it in their mind, they almost correctly trace it to their own thinking. It sucks. But it is proof that they are processing your ideas.

Sooo. I have decided that if these people can help me get promoted or keep my spot or approve a conference or training, I just agree with them and say “That makes a lot of sense to me and I am happy to hear what you just offered. I think I am on the same page with you, lets go over these points and make sure. Is this in line with your thinking?”
posted by drowsy at 6:49 PM on January 3 [3 favorites]

I should add that I dont mean what I said above in a cynical way. I can lay out a lot of detail with a lot of bases covered at once, and I don’t know if that is a root cause. I feel like, “OK the gang is rowing now and if I get to do what I am proposing then yay team.”. Sometimes better than hearing recognition is knowing someone left a meeting feeling better because of my participation. That feeling, if it is consistent, has helped me workwise more than getting praised or granted credit. I actually hear things like “I dont know what he’s working on but I trust him” instead of the attaboys I wanted, but that has been working out.

Of course, if you arent feeling the benefits, try to bring that up in another setting!
posted by drowsy at 7:03 PM on January 3

The traditional solution to this problem is to find a cis white male ally on your team whom you can signal when these things happen

To build on this a bit, because i do think this is fundamentally the right approach:

I agree that you need a wingwoman/air support as it may be here, but it doesn't need to be a man.

I worked in offices in various roles for years as a out-of-norm racially ambiguous queer person, and as a queer woman... The best support i ever got with this behavior? From an older woman, with a dead inside vibe, who was a widely respected department head. She would just say in a monotone "excuse me, emptythought wasn't done speaking" or "Ah, so we're going with exactly what emptythought proposed as a solution here, got it". She would say this to the CEO if it took that. She was unfireable, and knew it. She had been there longer than everyone at the table. Everyone feared her. It was awesome.

So, it can be someone from a similar background & presentation. What you need is someone with authority and credibility on your side. And this is honestly an easier ask, as they're a lot more likely to be sympathetic to your cause and fed up with this behavior.

I really, really understand and sympathize with thinking this is a communication/presentation issue on your part but like after a decade in tech, i can tell you, you're not the problem here. You're doing nothing wrong. These people are being jackasses. Consciously, unconsciously, it doesn't matter. Bias is at play here and it's not on you.

And if that fellow traveler who will stand up for you doesn't seem apparent at this place? Too much piss in the watering hole, move on to a new one.

I will also say, this is not something you can stand up for yourself on, speaking from experience, and many times over how i saw other people get treated for doing so. You really need someone else to step up. You will, unfortunately, just be treated like a problem if you do.

But really, this isn't your fault. You're not doing anything wrong, and there isn't anything you need to be doing "better" here.
posted by emptythought at 11:28 PM on January 5 [3 favorites]

Response by poster: In case anyone references this thread later. I took the advice from @blahlala and sent in my question to AskAManager and she answered. Be sure to check out the comments there too!

Thanks, BlahLaLa!
posted by xicana63 at 9:13 AM on January 11 [1 favorite]