Help me get better at allowing myself to let people down
December 16, 2023 2:22 AM Subscribe
I’ve had a recent breakthrough in therapy, when my therapist asked me: “why is it that you always need to do the objectively right thing instead of the right thing for you?” And I didn’t have an answer. I need some help figuring out what “doing the right thing for me” looks like.
All my adult life, I’ve been consumed with the need to do the “right thing”. Whether that’s been apologising first in an argument with my partner, because I knew that they wouldn’t, even though I knew that the argument started because of something they did. Or perhaps it not giving notice on a job that was making me miserable because the team relied on me and I didn’t want to let them down.
This need to do the right or decent thing has led me to take on way more psychological stress than I needed to, and has at times made life very painful for me. I struggle to walk away from relationships — interpersonal or even business ones — that are bad for me, because my brain is wired to always try to put other people first. This has in turn led me to have codependent tendencies, which doesn’t end up helping anyone.
The end game of this of course is that, after taking on more stress than I should have, I end up having to have the hard conversation and hurt or disappoint people anyway, at which point I’m also guilty of having hidden from them the truth of the situation because I was too afraid to do the wrong thing (by them) by speaking that truth. And so everyone gets more hurt and I feel even worse.
I’d like to hear from you if you’re similarly wired and have found ways to solve the problem. How did you start choosing yourself over others, even if you know others would be hurt by your actions? How do you get past the freeze-up point of knowing (or at least believing) that you’re going to hurt someone so that you actually speak your truth instead of twisting your words to avoid causing pain, disappointment and upset?
All my adult life, I’ve been consumed with the need to do the “right thing”. Whether that’s been apologising first in an argument with my partner, because I knew that they wouldn’t, even though I knew that the argument started because of something they did. Or perhaps it not giving notice on a job that was making me miserable because the team relied on me and I didn’t want to let them down.
This need to do the right or decent thing has led me to take on way more psychological stress than I needed to, and has at times made life very painful for me. I struggle to walk away from relationships — interpersonal or even business ones — that are bad for me, because my brain is wired to always try to put other people first. This has in turn led me to have codependent tendencies, which doesn’t end up helping anyone.
The end game of this of course is that, after taking on more stress than I should have, I end up having to have the hard conversation and hurt or disappoint people anyway, at which point I’m also guilty of having hidden from them the truth of the situation because I was too afraid to do the wrong thing (by them) by speaking that truth. And so everyone gets more hurt and I feel even worse.
I’d like to hear from you if you’re similarly wired and have found ways to solve the problem. How did you start choosing yourself over others, even if you know others would be hurt by your actions? How do you get past the freeze-up point of knowing (or at least believing) that you’re going to hurt someone so that you actually speak your truth instead of twisting your words to avoid causing pain, disappointment and upset?
I don't particularly enjoy disappointing people either, but I try to remind myself that being honest about my limitations is actually the prosocial thing to do. Better to disappoint someone early and slightly, when it's still easy for them to arrange for alternative solutions, than drag it out till the last second, overpromise and underdeliver, or, in the worst case, break down completely and leave them to scramble. It's also ultimately prosocial to responsible manage my own energy reserves, even it that means sometimes contributing less, as to not risk a complete burn-out, become incapable of supporting myself and turn into a bigger burden on others.
Of course that's easer said than done - sometimes I err too much in the other direction, and underpromise so much, that I actually promise nothing at all, which is indeed also pretty useless. Sometimes people need a bit of commitment, on has to let onself be counted upon. Then I course-correct, and overpromise again. It's difficult to never do that, because sometimes you really, really want to be there for someone in a certain situation, in a certain way, and can't bring yourself to face the fact that you just don't have it in you. It happens less as I get older, but it's probably always going to happen once in a while.
Getting to know yourself well enough so you know what you can and can't promise is probably a lifetime task, requiring endless iterations of trial and error. (Not least, because our reserves and limitations are not static - what we can and can't promise is a moving target). We have to give each other grace in these matters. I remind myself of times when others disappointed me and try to be graceful about it, and that makes it easier for me to hope for grace from them when it's my turn to disappoint them.
Could it be that you don't have enough opportunity to practice being graceful in the face of disappointment, because you don't give other people enough opportunities to disappoint you, because you never expect anything of them in the first place? Or maybe you have stopped expecting anything after having been disappointed too often, and that's why you fear it so much? But surely that didn't happen after just one disappointment, no? Remind yourself what it really takes to be written off as a lost cause - probably more than cancelling the occasional date.
posted by sohalt at 4:34 AM on December 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
Of course that's easer said than done - sometimes I err too much in the other direction, and underpromise so much, that I actually promise nothing at all, which is indeed also pretty useless. Sometimes people need a bit of commitment, on has to let onself be counted upon. Then I course-correct, and overpromise again. It's difficult to never do that, because sometimes you really, really want to be there for someone in a certain situation, in a certain way, and can't bring yourself to face the fact that you just don't have it in you. It happens less as I get older, but it's probably always going to happen once in a while.
Getting to know yourself well enough so you know what you can and can't promise is probably a lifetime task, requiring endless iterations of trial and error. (Not least, because our reserves and limitations are not static - what we can and can't promise is a moving target). We have to give each other grace in these matters. I remind myself of times when others disappointed me and try to be graceful about it, and that makes it easier for me to hope for grace from them when it's my turn to disappoint them.
Could it be that you don't have enough opportunity to practice being graceful in the face of disappointment, because you don't give other people enough opportunities to disappoint you, because you never expect anything of them in the first place? Or maybe you have stopped expecting anything after having been disappointed too often, and that's why you fear it so much? But surely that didn't happen after just one disappointment, no? Remind yourself what it really takes to be written off as a lost cause - probably more than cancelling the occasional date.
posted by sohalt at 4:34 AM on December 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
Response by poster:
posted by gmb at 4:34 AM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Finding the skills/courage to actually start having better conversations with someone important is definitely worth spending time on in therapy.“Courage” is exactly the word I’m looking for, and what I find lacking in myself. There’s also an element of needing somehow to be able to rationalise my decisions so that they can’t be argued-with, as though I have to have the other person agree that I’m right in what I’m feeling.
posted by gmb at 4:34 AM on December 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have to have the other person agree that I’m right in what I’m feeling.
Yeah that's a therapy thing too, because that reflex comes from somewhere. As a kid, not being believed about your internal state can do a tremendous amount of damage to your ability to be honest about yourself with other people, because often you start disbelieving your own internal state. It's not so much a matter of courage as it is figuring out how to repattern those learned responses.
And this is really about honesty, but you have to be able to be honest with yourself first, so you can see what you are telling other people as a choice rather than a reflex.
posted by restless_nomad at 4:44 AM on December 16, 2023 [18 favorites]
Yeah that's a therapy thing too, because that reflex comes from somewhere. As a kid, not being believed about your internal state can do a tremendous amount of damage to your ability to be honest about yourself with other people, because often you start disbelieving your own internal state. It's not so much a matter of courage as it is figuring out how to repattern those learned responses.
And this is really about honesty, but you have to be able to be honest with yourself first, so you can see what you are telling other people as a choice rather than a reflex.
posted by restless_nomad at 4:44 AM on December 16, 2023 [18 favorites]
Forgive me for criticizing your therapist's framing but as someone who may have some of your outlook, I don't think "always putting others first regardless of what they did" is the same as "doing the objectively right thing", and I think "you should do what is right for you even if it is not objectively right" is a framing that conscientious people often struggle with.
What I'm seeing in your examples is that they are not what is "objectively right"! Why would it be right to apologize when you aren't at fault, or to oppress yourself to spare your boss? What's going on there is thinking that you are apart from the world in some way, so your problems don't count as problems in the world and therefore if you are suffering and someone else is not, it's like no one is suffering at all!
There are two outlooks that I have found a bit helpful as I've gotten older. One of them is simply, "I count as much as anyone else" - if it's unfair for Clelia to get terrible work assignments, it is also unfair if I just pick them up to spare her. The other is just "I am realistically assessing goals here and accepting the consequences" - like, if I chose to make a tactical apology in order to move on, I'm not doing it because it's "right", I'm doing it because I place more value on the end-goal than on being right in the moment. This one is a little double-edged, but sometimes you do have to do tactical things and it's better not to kid yourself that you're "doing the right thing" when you're taking on something unfair.
For me, I grew up with both a strong narrative that people in my family and of my general type were Not Like Others and Had To Do The Right Thing and a really unusual amount and intensity of bullying and isolation, plus I'm a weirdo in some neurodivergent way or other, and so I feel like my mental narrative is "I am sort of dipping into these people's world to do things, but I'm really an alien, and therefore the moral framework is about their needs and wishes, not mine since I'm not really from here". I don't know if this connects to your experience at all, but I feel like a lot of my stuff around right behavior is rooted in this feeling that I don't really belong.
posted by Frowner at 5:31 AM on December 16, 2023 [31 favorites]
What I'm seeing in your examples is that they are not what is "objectively right"! Why would it be right to apologize when you aren't at fault, or to oppress yourself to spare your boss? What's going on there is thinking that you are apart from the world in some way, so your problems don't count as problems in the world and therefore if you are suffering and someone else is not, it's like no one is suffering at all!
There are two outlooks that I have found a bit helpful as I've gotten older. One of them is simply, "I count as much as anyone else" - if it's unfair for Clelia to get terrible work assignments, it is also unfair if I just pick them up to spare her. The other is just "I am realistically assessing goals here and accepting the consequences" - like, if I chose to make a tactical apology in order to move on, I'm not doing it because it's "right", I'm doing it because I place more value on the end-goal than on being right in the moment. This one is a little double-edged, but sometimes you do have to do tactical things and it's better not to kid yourself that you're "doing the right thing" when you're taking on something unfair.
For me, I grew up with both a strong narrative that people in my family and of my general type were Not Like Others and Had To Do The Right Thing and a really unusual amount and intensity of bullying and isolation, plus I'm a weirdo in some neurodivergent way or other, and so I feel like my mental narrative is "I am sort of dipping into these people's world to do things, but I'm really an alien, and therefore the moral framework is about their needs and wishes, not mine since I'm not really from here". I don't know if this connects to your experience at all, but I feel like a lot of my stuff around right behavior is rooted in this feeling that I don't really belong.
posted by Frowner at 5:31 AM on December 16, 2023 [31 favorites]
Hi, are you me?
One thing that may help sometimes -- it's definitely not a universal -- is remembering that the other person doesn't want me to be hurt. If I ask for what I need, they are likely to accept it and be happy that they were able to help me.
This is how I got through welching on a lot of stuff after my week in the hospital. Nobody wants me to have a relapse, nobody wants me to get sicker, everybody wants to help me recover. And basically that turned out to be true.
posted by humbug at 5:54 AM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
One thing that may help sometimes -- it's definitely not a universal -- is remembering that the other person doesn't want me to be hurt. If I ask for what I need, they are likely to accept it and be happy that they were able to help me.
This is how I got through welching on a lot of stuff after my week in the hospital. Nobody wants me to have a relapse, nobody wants me to get sicker, everybody wants to help me recover. And basically that turned out to be true.
posted by humbug at 5:54 AM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
What opened this skill up for me was to look for many small opportunities to say 'no', and to say it without explaining myself further. Truly small interactions, such as:
- Would I like a sample of cheese the supermarket employee was handing out? No, thanks.
- Would I like to sign a petition? Sorry, not today.
- Would I like to hear a pitch at my front door for sustainable energy products? No thank you.
- Would I like to go to the city councilor forum? That night doesn't work for me, so it's a no for me.
Now, I live someplace where all those requests would generally be things I would say yes to. And I love cheese! But I was practicing. Low stakes. No one died after I said no. No one yelled at me for being an unfeeling and disengaged citizen. No one chased me down to force cheese on me (alas).
Much harder were interactions at places where I volunteered, and interactions with friends and family. But again, I built up some skill saying no to small things in those settings first. Could I work a shift this Thursday? Ah...no, sorry, but I'll be here Friday. Would I be able to go for a walk that afternoon? Unfortunately, no, but another day, I'd love to! Would I like a copy of photos of distant relatives from the mid-1800s? Hmmmm, I think not, but thanks for thinking of me.
Now, because those were relationships I wanted to maintain, I was also saying yes to things throughout. But as I got more comfortable with small no's I got more comfortable with medium-sized ones and eventually some over-sized ones. I didn't always succeed. There are some notable yes's that should have been no's. But because I'd been able to pepper some no's in there, the yes's didn't feel as terrifying, perpetual, or claustrophobic.
For things that will cause hurt, those are difficult. I can think of three or four instances in the last 10 years for me. It's been just over 10 years since I gave this answer about saying 'no' in a previous post, so it's a skill I'm still practicing!
posted by cocoagirl at 6:10 AM on December 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
- Would I like a sample of cheese the supermarket employee was handing out? No, thanks.
- Would I like to sign a petition? Sorry, not today.
- Would I like to hear a pitch at my front door for sustainable energy products? No thank you.
- Would I like to go to the city councilor forum? That night doesn't work for me, so it's a no for me.
Now, I live someplace where all those requests would generally be things I would say yes to. And I love cheese! But I was practicing. Low stakes. No one died after I said no. No one yelled at me for being an unfeeling and disengaged citizen. No one chased me down to force cheese on me (alas).
Much harder were interactions at places where I volunteered, and interactions with friends and family. But again, I built up some skill saying no to small things in those settings first. Could I work a shift this Thursday? Ah...no, sorry, but I'll be here Friday. Would I be able to go for a walk that afternoon? Unfortunately, no, but another day, I'd love to! Would I like a copy of photos of distant relatives from the mid-1800s? Hmmmm, I think not, but thanks for thinking of me.
Now, because those were relationships I wanted to maintain, I was also saying yes to things throughout. But as I got more comfortable with small no's I got more comfortable with medium-sized ones and eventually some over-sized ones. I didn't always succeed. There are some notable yes's that should have been no's. But because I'd been able to pepper some no's in there, the yes's didn't feel as terrifying, perpetual, or claustrophobic.
For things that will cause hurt, those are difficult. I can think of three or four instances in the last 10 years for me. It's been just over 10 years since I gave this answer about saying 'no' in a previous post, so it's a skill I'm still practicing!
posted by cocoagirl at 6:10 AM on December 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
I would agree that the things you're describing are not "objectively right." It's just you deciding to take all the negative consequences. So maybe work with your therapist on why you're choosing to do that. Do you think that's all you deserve? Do you think you're better at suffering than others? Stronger than others and therefore better at handling negative consequences? (That one's mine, and I am working on learning that just because I can handle it doesn't mean I should have to handle all of it.) Something else?
I also realized that a large dynamic in my life was that I saw myself as a problem solver and unconsciously believed I had to go fix any problem I identified on my own so as to avoid burdening people not only with having to deal with the problem-solving but also with really even noticing the problem at all. (My childhood wasn't traumatic but there was a lot of "If you're upset, go to your room by yourself and deal with it alone," which I think contributed to the pattern.) Realizing that other people have a right to be involved in solving problems that affect them helped, as well as realizing my pattern was avoidant of that interpersonal dynamic and therefore not nearly as "helpful" as I believed. Learning conflict skills helped. "When Anger Scares You: How to Overcome Your Fear of Conflict and Express Your Anger in Healthy Ways" by John Lynch was life-changing for that.
posted by lapis at 6:46 AM on December 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
I also realized that a large dynamic in my life was that I saw myself as a problem solver and unconsciously believed I had to go fix any problem I identified on my own so as to avoid burdening people not only with having to deal with the problem-solving but also with really even noticing the problem at all. (My childhood wasn't traumatic but there was a lot of "If you're upset, go to your room by yourself and deal with it alone," which I think contributed to the pattern.) Realizing that other people have a right to be involved in solving problems that affect them helped, as well as realizing my pattern was avoidant of that interpersonal dynamic and therefore not nearly as "helpful" as I believed. Learning conflict skills helped. "When Anger Scares You: How to Overcome Your Fear of Conflict and Express Your Anger in Healthy Ways" by John Lynch was life-changing for that.
posted by lapis at 6:46 AM on December 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is an issue humans have reallllly done a lot of thinking about, at least in the US in the last fifty years anyway.. to my surprise, apparently some folks can get through quite a lot of formal education on their way to being mental health providers and, depending on where they are taught and what treatment modalities are taught there, they might not really know a ton about all the ways this issue has been thought about and dealt with of late in like .. the culture at large, so here's a comment wirh some leads for some rabbit holes to go down..
disclaimer is I wish that this word was literally a different word, because it just sounds like it means something that it doesn't, but since i don't think i saw it mentioned yet (well, admittedly i was skimming, but) the term "codependency" is a word often used for what you describe. Whatever we call it, it's pretty much the cultural water a lot of us grew up swimming in, due to a variety of reasons .. religion, gender, family culture, etc.. if one can get past the weirdness of the word, I think reading about how incredibly common a coping and getting along strategy it is for people and why and wherefore can have advantages, because, well, you're certainly not alone.
Other words: counter dependency, interdependency, coregulation.. idk for whatever that's all worth ! You might also end up in some spaces that talk about attachment stuff.. If you are curious about or already a fan of groups, there's also a ton of those where you can hear and share with others about this at any hour of any day - CoDa (codependents anonymous), al anon, adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families (ACA) .. perhaps your therapist already mentioned these. There are phone meetings, zoom meetings, and irl meetings.. apparently some folks have a lot of concerns about being put on the spot in recovery groups.. idk maybe hollywood depictions of AA are to blame, but one can just be a fly on the wall even in a phone meeting. Like everything, a mixed bag .. because people are people .. but, also the culture of anonymity and free community resource is neat.
As maybe other folks said, I think the idea of right thing and wrong thing is .. idk.. revealing? Not that it isn't common parlance, but just in that ..damn the way we talk about things reveals a lot.. in the case of right/wrong it's using a really dichotomous binary for a bunch of situations in which there's mostly grey to talk to yourself about it? (Actually another interesting take I recently encountered from the mental health field that comes to mind is "overcontrol" .. wish i could remember the person whose theory that catch phrase is from .. hmm .. but the gist of that was that some of this stuff for a subsection of folks stems from being, hrmmm, too hard on oneself, keeping oneself on too short a leash? .. and that therefore offering those folks solutions that were inclined to get them to apply even more rules to themselves would be contra indicated, which i thought was also interesting.. )
Hope this helps in case any of it is new news..
posted by elgee at 7:10 AM on December 16, 2023
disclaimer is I wish that this word was literally a different word, because it just sounds like it means something that it doesn't, but since i don't think i saw it mentioned yet (well, admittedly i was skimming, but) the term "codependency" is a word often used for what you describe. Whatever we call it, it's pretty much the cultural water a lot of us grew up swimming in, due to a variety of reasons .. religion, gender, family culture, etc.. if one can get past the weirdness of the word, I think reading about how incredibly common a coping and getting along strategy it is for people and why and wherefore can have advantages, because, well, you're certainly not alone.
Other words: counter dependency, interdependency, coregulation.. idk for whatever that's all worth ! You might also end up in some spaces that talk about attachment stuff.. If you are curious about or already a fan of groups, there's also a ton of those where you can hear and share with others about this at any hour of any day - CoDa (codependents anonymous), al anon, adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families (ACA) .. perhaps your therapist already mentioned these. There are phone meetings, zoom meetings, and irl meetings.. apparently some folks have a lot of concerns about being put on the spot in recovery groups.. idk maybe hollywood depictions of AA are to blame, but one can just be a fly on the wall even in a phone meeting. Like everything, a mixed bag .. because people are people .. but, also the culture of anonymity and free community resource is neat.
As maybe other folks said, I think the idea of right thing and wrong thing is .. idk.. revealing? Not that it isn't common parlance, but just in that ..damn the way we talk about things reveals a lot.. in the case of right/wrong it's using a really dichotomous binary for a bunch of situations in which there's mostly grey to talk to yourself about it? (Actually another interesting take I recently encountered from the mental health field that comes to mind is "overcontrol" .. wish i could remember the person whose theory that catch phrase is from .. hmm .. but the gist of that was that some of this stuff for a subsection of folks stems from being, hrmmm, too hard on oneself, keeping oneself on too short a leash? .. and that therefore offering those folks solutions that were inclined to get them to apply even more rules to themselves would be contra indicated, which i thought was also interesting.. )
Hope this helps in case any of it is new news..
posted by elgee at 7:10 AM on December 16, 2023
It is worth spending some time considering this: most people-pleasing behavior does nobody any favors. All it does is avoid conflict, and that is NOT the same as "objectively the right thing to do", which I think you should push back on your therapist about because this is everything, this is the critical component.
apologising first in an argument with my partner, because I knew that they wouldn’t. Conflict avoidance; training your partner that being shitty to you is fine. Solves nothing. Isn't even objectively the "right" thing to do, this is not effective conflict resolution or productive relationship communication. You're just ignoring the glaring problem that your partner won't take responsibility for their behavior.
not giving notice on a job that was making me miserable because the team relied on me and I didn’t want to let them down. This makes you a good Capitalist only. It would have been a favor to your actual peers to cause a shakeup by leaving without notice, to reveal the employer's failure to run their business right.
Work harder at identifying the Real Right Thing. Spend more time thinking about the actual implications of someone "being mad at you": ARE they mad at you, or are you inventing an anger (and exaggerating your power over people) that doesn't even exist, or are they mad they can't manipulate you? If you have trouble internalizing the latter as toxic and wrong when you are the target, start by considering if it was being done to someone you like and admire so you can actually see the injustice in it.
You also have to let other people be adults with agency. You racing around spinning all the plates so nobody ever has to have a moment of discomfort is unfair to them. You are manipulating them. Yes, you're doing it to keep yourself "safe", but 98% of it appears to be safety from no actual threat, just from someone having an emotion you're not controlling.
But to take that one step further, real adults with agency are not pinning their every hope and dream on you personally doing exactly what they want all day every day. Not if they're not taking advantage of you anyway. If I'm your coworker and I say hey, I'm super behind getting this report out and Jim in payroll needs help with the flarble, can you take a look, I am not going to go on a printer-throwing spree if you say you can't because you also have a deadline but maybe check with Geo because she's probably done with her thing. It is ultimately my responsibility to find a solution, which I'm doing by asking around (not ordering you to please me!), and if you can't do it that's fine because it's my problem. I wasn't trying to make it your problem, I was just obtaining data.
If I'm your friend and I say hey, we haven't met up in ages, are you free Saturday, it is entirely up to you whether you move your oil change appointment because you really want to see me too or you recognize that even though you want to do the enjoyable thing you have to get that maintenance done because you're driving 250 miles on Sunday and I wasn't asking you to risk your life and property to see me, it's just coffee, we'll figure something else out, because I'm a reasonable human being. If you can't treat me like one, can't expect that from me through no fault of my own, that's not even friendship. I'm just accidentally holding you hostage and forcing you to socialize with me because - unbeknownst to me - I'm a monster.
It's a complicated chain of distorted thinking to undo, but I think it starts with forging a relationship with yourself that at least acknowledges you deserve to be treated fairly and that is supposed to be part of your calculus about what is "right". As always, my recommendation is Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, to help you understand the neurochemical mechanisms of Freeze and Fawn in particular and some idea of what retraining your nervous system to not go immediately there will be like. There are also a number of well-reviewed workbooks on boundaries, but while those are great for learning to express boundaries I still think you have to get at the root of the problem, which is the belief that it is unsafe to have boundaries or that you are not worthy of having them respected.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:28 AM on December 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
apologising first in an argument with my partner, because I knew that they wouldn’t. Conflict avoidance; training your partner that being shitty to you is fine. Solves nothing. Isn't even objectively the "right" thing to do, this is not effective conflict resolution or productive relationship communication. You're just ignoring the glaring problem that your partner won't take responsibility for their behavior.
not giving notice on a job that was making me miserable because the team relied on me and I didn’t want to let them down. This makes you a good Capitalist only. It would have been a favor to your actual peers to cause a shakeup by leaving without notice, to reveal the employer's failure to run their business right.
Work harder at identifying the Real Right Thing. Spend more time thinking about the actual implications of someone "being mad at you": ARE they mad at you, or are you inventing an anger (and exaggerating your power over people) that doesn't even exist, or are they mad they can't manipulate you? If you have trouble internalizing the latter as toxic and wrong when you are the target, start by considering if it was being done to someone you like and admire so you can actually see the injustice in it.
You also have to let other people be adults with agency. You racing around spinning all the plates so nobody ever has to have a moment of discomfort is unfair to them. You are manipulating them. Yes, you're doing it to keep yourself "safe", but 98% of it appears to be safety from no actual threat, just from someone having an emotion you're not controlling.
But to take that one step further, real adults with agency are not pinning their every hope and dream on you personally doing exactly what they want all day every day. Not if they're not taking advantage of you anyway. If I'm your coworker and I say hey, I'm super behind getting this report out and Jim in payroll needs help with the flarble, can you take a look, I am not going to go on a printer-throwing spree if you say you can't because you also have a deadline but maybe check with Geo because she's probably done with her thing. It is ultimately my responsibility to find a solution, which I'm doing by asking around (not ordering you to please me!), and if you can't do it that's fine because it's my problem. I wasn't trying to make it your problem, I was just obtaining data.
If I'm your friend and I say hey, we haven't met up in ages, are you free Saturday, it is entirely up to you whether you move your oil change appointment because you really want to see me too or you recognize that even though you want to do the enjoyable thing you have to get that maintenance done because you're driving 250 miles on Sunday and I wasn't asking you to risk your life and property to see me, it's just coffee, we'll figure something else out, because I'm a reasonable human being. If you can't treat me like one, can't expect that from me through no fault of my own, that's not even friendship. I'm just accidentally holding you hostage and forcing you to socialize with me because - unbeknownst to me - I'm a monster.
It's a complicated chain of distorted thinking to undo, but I think it starts with forging a relationship with yourself that at least acknowledges you deserve to be treated fairly and that is supposed to be part of your calculus about what is "right". As always, my recommendation is Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, to help you understand the neurochemical mechanisms of Freeze and Fawn in particular and some idea of what retraining your nervous system to not go immediately there will be like. There are also a number of well-reviewed workbooks on boundaries, but while those are great for learning to express boundaries I still think you have to get at the root of the problem, which is the belief that it is unsafe to have boundaries or that you are not worthy of having them respected.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:28 AM on December 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
Best answer: As a therapist, I will also note that we often use the client's own terminology, even if we don't totally agree with it, both to avoid getting into distracting semantics arguments and also to avoid putting words in clients' mouths. There are long-range techniques that might be used to help shift someone's framing, which can also include waiting and seeing if it shifts on its own as the behavior changes. So maybe don't hold the idea of "objectively right" too firmly as something the therapist is agreeing with.
posted by lapis at 7:44 AM on December 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by lapis at 7:44 AM on December 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
I agree with Frowner, and all the others who say your therapist's rhetoric doesn’t really frame it well. Putting aside what is “objectively right thing” for a second, it sounds like you are thoughtful and self-aware, but you lack confidence.
With the job example, not wanting to hurt/disappoint people as a justification doesn’t even hold water, because giving notice would be the proper, appropriate way to act (according to your code of ethics, but not everyone’s). As I think you realize, you were terribly afraid to have a difficult conversation, putting in this box of it being the “right thing”, doesn't change that.
Likewise, the fight with the partner apology doesn’t really fit into this dynamic of “objectively correct”. (And if you need to offer a false apology to calm your partner down, you might have a bigger problem.)
If this framing has helped you get some insight, that is great. But, all this talk of right thing and wrong thing is just a time killer, allowing you to not do the thing you don't want to do. Proceed with caution.
In therapy, or outside of it, I’d work specifically on learning to have difficult conversations and overcoming avoidance. As far as courage, there must have been times when you have dealt with something that took courage, so I'm sure you have it, you just need the self-confidence to use it.
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 8:06 AM on December 16, 2023
With the job example, not wanting to hurt/disappoint people as a justification doesn’t even hold water, because giving notice would be the proper, appropriate way to act (according to your code of ethics, but not everyone’s). As I think you realize, you were terribly afraid to have a difficult conversation, putting in this box of it being the “right thing”, doesn't change that.
Likewise, the fight with the partner apology doesn’t really fit into this dynamic of “objectively correct”. (And if you need to offer a false apology to calm your partner down, you might have a bigger problem.)
If this framing has helped you get some insight, that is great. But, all this talk of right thing and wrong thing is just a time killer, allowing you to not do the thing you don't want to do. Proceed with caution.
In therapy, or outside of it, I’d work specifically on learning to have difficult conversations and overcoming avoidance. As far as courage, there must have been times when you have dealt with something that took courage, so I'm sure you have it, you just need the self-confidence to use it.
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 8:06 AM on December 16, 2023
Nothing has helped me more with this kind of issue than reading the thousands of posts at Captain Awkward.
She is frequently referenced here and for good reason. In addition to being very insightful she is very funny and nothing helps make absurb behavior apparent than having it comically yet accurately described.
Reading post after post is sort of practice by proxy and I started to internalize the worldview that "boundaries are good even if other people don't like it when you set them."
Good luck to you my friend!
posted by Jenny'sCricket at 12:17 PM on December 16, 2023
She is frequently referenced here and for good reason. In addition to being very insightful she is very funny and nothing helps make absurb behavior apparent than having it comically yet accurately described.
Reading post after post is sort of practice by proxy and I started to internalize the worldview that "boundaries are good even if other people don't like it when you set them."
Good luck to you my friend!
posted by Jenny'sCricket at 12:17 PM on December 16, 2023
Best answer: What turned the key for me on this was recognizing that the objectively right course of action is always (for me) to respect other people as full human beings who can, and are due the right to, take care of themselves.
Trying to spare everyone else harm is what I do with children. I find doing it with adults to be disrespectful.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:18 PM on December 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
Trying to spare everyone else harm is what I do with children. I find doing it with adults to be disrespectful.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:18 PM on December 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
I realized I was over estimating how much the other person valued the X sacrifice I was making. Like for me I was doing a nice benevolent thing by not asserting myself and it turned out they didn’t care that much either way.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 4:07 PM on December 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 4:07 PM on December 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Thousands of years ago, in the primordial ooze of mefi, someone posted that reminding oneself that being rational and objectively doing what was the best course of action would not lead to "getting in trouble."
It has 1,000% not been my life experience that people don't value the sacrifice or effort on my part. Because controlling bullies are all about someone else working or suffering, and lazy people who would rather someone else do the work are very invested in someone else doing the work. But they have no right to treat you this way. They cannot get you in trouble.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 4:24 PM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
It has 1,000% not been my life experience that people don't value the sacrifice or effort on my part. Because controlling bullies are all about someone else working or suffering, and lazy people who would rather someone else do the work are very invested in someone else doing the work. But they have no right to treat you this way. They cannot get you in trouble.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 4:24 PM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Carolyn Hax's columns at the Washington Post were a huge help in finding where to set healthy boundaries and maintain them. I binged several years of her archive a while back and it was like suddenly getting a vitamin or mineral my body had been craving but didn't know it.
posted by sapere aude at 11:35 AM on December 18, 2023
posted by sapere aude at 11:35 AM on December 18, 2023
The end game of this of course is that, after taking on more stress than I should have, I end up having to have the hard conversation and hurt or disappoint people anyway, at which point I’m also guilty of having hidden from them the truth of the situation because I was too afraid to do the wrong thing (by them) by speaking that truth. And so everyone gets more hurt and I feel even worse.
One way to approach some of the situation if you are the sort of person who thinks you want to "do the right thing", isn't the "objectively right" thing to do avoiding hurting people more by hiding the truth from them?
I find that thinking through things a bit further can lead to a different conclusion. Sure, it's more comfortable to think "oh I'm doing the right thing and also this is so easy because I don't have to confront people", but that is a flaw in your logic. It's not actually the right thing at all if the longer term effects of your choices are worse for both you and others.
You are just getting to an easy stopping point with the first easy option and it's very tempting to call that the right thing to do. It feels great to pretend you are doing "the right thing" if you don't have do to anything uncomfortable in the moment, but it is a flawed logical process to decided something is the right thing if past experience has shown it leads to bad outcomes. You are pretending that you are choosing this easy option due to some rational and objective evaluation of what is right, but this is a lie you are telling yourself.
For things like apologizing for stuff that's not your fault, that might need a different approach. Perhaps there are negative long term effects on your communications and relationship with this person when you apologize for things that aren't your fault. Is that the right thing to do, to make choices that lead to poor communication in the long term?
Of course, if you follow a value system where you believe people should sufferer unnecessarily then your choices might be different.
posted by yohko at 1:41 PM on December 19, 2023
One way to approach some of the situation if you are the sort of person who thinks you want to "do the right thing", isn't the "objectively right" thing to do avoiding hurting people more by hiding the truth from them?
I find that thinking through things a bit further can lead to a different conclusion. Sure, it's more comfortable to think "oh I'm doing the right thing and also this is so easy because I don't have to confront people", but that is a flaw in your logic. It's not actually the right thing at all if the longer term effects of your choices are worse for both you and others.
You are just getting to an easy stopping point with the first easy option and it's very tempting to call that the right thing to do. It feels great to pretend you are doing "the right thing" if you don't have do to anything uncomfortable in the moment, but it is a flawed logical process to decided something is the right thing if past experience has shown it leads to bad outcomes. You are pretending that you are choosing this easy option due to some rational and objective evaluation of what is right, but this is a lie you are telling yourself.
For things like apologizing for stuff that's not your fault, that might need a different approach. Perhaps there are negative long term effects on your communications and relationship with this person when you apologize for things that aren't your fault. Is that the right thing to do, to make choices that lead to poor communication in the long term?
Of course, if you follow a value system where you believe people should sufferer unnecessarily then your choices might be different.
posted by yohko at 1:41 PM on December 19, 2023
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So, in this example "not giving notice on a job that was making me miserable because the team relied on me and I didn’t want to let them down" even if I don't put my notice in as early as I could, I can still remind myself that if I put in my notice, then they will make other arrangements that will cover my work and that might be someone who isn't made miserable by it, and even if it's going to make my team's lives worse it might also encourage them to believe that they could get another job.
However, your other example, I would find much harder. "apologising first in an argument with my partner, because I knew that they wouldn’t, even though I knew that the argument started because of something they did". I would find it harder because in the worst case, it could result in the relationship ending because they are not actually as good for me as I need them to be. The answer, about looking at the bigger picture, is still the same but I might need more time to adjust to the potential risks. Finding the skills/courage to actually start having better conversations with someone important is definitely worth spending time on in therapy.
posted by plonkee at 2:42 AM on December 16, 2023 [4 favorites]