How do I talk to my friend about their drinking?
December 14, 2023 5:14 AM Subscribe
I have a very close friend who appears to be an alcoholic. However, they're very good at hiding the extent of their consumption around me. How do I talk to them about it even though I haven't witnessed it directly?
I have been friends with C for a little over ten years. We're very close, and I believe they don't have many other (any?) friends as close as me. A few months ago, I started noticing lots more wine corks laying around their house, them casually referring to really bad hangovers, etc. A few weeks after that, their new partner became friendly with me and disclosed that there'd been some recent blackout-level drinking that led to fights between them.
This led me to contact C's ex, who I'm close with. I asked if they'd be comfortable if I asked some personal questions about C, and they said yes, so I asked if they'd ever noticed if C had any issues with drinking. They responded yes, and they were sad/surprised that I didn't know - it had been an issue between them for years, but C was very defensive that it wasn't a problem. According to ex, C drank 1-2 glasses of wine or 2ish beers every night for the several years they lived together (and got agitated if they couldn't or were asked not to), but rarely got noticeably intoxicated and it hadn't escalated significantly in that time period. They observed that it had likely gotten worse if the facade was slipping and I was noticing, since C cares deeply about appearing in control/okay around me. They also confirmed there were never any blackout situations, fighting, yelling, etc, which seems to be happening in current day.
Then just this week, I was playing a video game with C over Discord. I could hear what sounded like liquor being poured in the background of voice chat while we were talking, and as the night went on they spoke a lot less. Then in the middle of a game, they stopped playing/moving, went silent, and essentially disappeared, but stayed in voice chat. I messaged C and asked if they were ok. I presumed what happened was that as they drank more they talked less so any slurring wouldn't be noticeable, then drank so heavily they couldn't participate anymore, but I couldn't confirm it - until their current partner texted me and said they were worried about C. I asked if they were at C’s apartment, they said yes, C is passed out in their computer chair. An hour later, I got a reply from C saying ‘why were you worried? I'm fine’ - clearly they are trying to hide what's going on. I truly think THEY think they're successfully hiding it from me, even now.
So, how do I talk to C about their drinking when I haven't been present for most of it (except the video game incident, and I can't even prove they were drinking), and I don't want to betray the confidentiality of their ex or current partner? E.g. I can't say ‘well I know it's a problem because I talked to ex and they said so’. I mostly want to convey that I believe they have a drinking problem and I'm available if they want help. I'm worried they will deny and say there’s no proof. Does that even matter to the conversation, though?
Second, I'm struggling with the tug of war between ‘if you say the right thing, you might be the one to get through to them’ vs ‘you cannot fix them’. I'm already planning to attend an Al-Anon meeting in advance of talking to C. I've also mentioned this situation to my own therapist. And I know I didn't Cause it, I can't Control it, and I can't Cure it. But it is weighing on me that two close people in their life have said that they were kind of relieved I now knew, because I might be the only person that could get through to them. How do I balance the importance of that without shouldering the burden of whether they admit they have a problem or even accept help?
Advice, please, for someone who is not well versed in addiction issues but is deeply concerned about their friend.
I have been friends with C for a little over ten years. We're very close, and I believe they don't have many other (any?) friends as close as me. A few months ago, I started noticing lots more wine corks laying around their house, them casually referring to really bad hangovers, etc. A few weeks after that, their new partner became friendly with me and disclosed that there'd been some recent blackout-level drinking that led to fights between them.
This led me to contact C's ex, who I'm close with. I asked if they'd be comfortable if I asked some personal questions about C, and they said yes, so I asked if they'd ever noticed if C had any issues with drinking. They responded yes, and they were sad/surprised that I didn't know - it had been an issue between them for years, but C was very defensive that it wasn't a problem. According to ex, C drank 1-2 glasses of wine or 2ish beers every night for the several years they lived together (and got agitated if they couldn't or were asked not to), but rarely got noticeably intoxicated and it hadn't escalated significantly in that time period. They observed that it had likely gotten worse if the facade was slipping and I was noticing, since C cares deeply about appearing in control/okay around me. They also confirmed there were never any blackout situations, fighting, yelling, etc, which seems to be happening in current day.
Then just this week, I was playing a video game with C over Discord. I could hear what sounded like liquor being poured in the background of voice chat while we were talking, and as the night went on they spoke a lot less. Then in the middle of a game, they stopped playing/moving, went silent, and essentially disappeared, but stayed in voice chat. I messaged C and asked if they were ok. I presumed what happened was that as they drank more they talked less so any slurring wouldn't be noticeable, then drank so heavily they couldn't participate anymore, but I couldn't confirm it - until their current partner texted me and said they were worried about C. I asked if they were at C’s apartment, they said yes, C is passed out in their computer chair. An hour later, I got a reply from C saying ‘why were you worried? I'm fine’ - clearly they are trying to hide what's going on. I truly think THEY think they're successfully hiding it from me, even now.
So, how do I talk to C about their drinking when I haven't been present for most of it (except the video game incident, and I can't even prove they were drinking), and I don't want to betray the confidentiality of their ex or current partner? E.g. I can't say ‘well I know it's a problem because I talked to ex and they said so’. I mostly want to convey that I believe they have a drinking problem and I'm available if they want help. I'm worried they will deny and say there’s no proof. Does that even matter to the conversation, though?
Second, I'm struggling with the tug of war between ‘if you say the right thing, you might be the one to get through to them’ vs ‘you cannot fix them’. I'm already planning to attend an Al-Anon meeting in advance of talking to C. I've also mentioned this situation to my own therapist. And I know I didn't Cause it, I can't Control it, and I can't Cure it. But it is weighing on me that two close people in their life have said that they were kind of relieved I now knew, because I might be the only person that could get through to them. How do I balance the importance of that without shouldering the burden of whether they admit they have a problem or even accept help?
Advice, please, for someone who is not well versed in addiction issues but is deeply concerned about their friend.
if you say the right thing, you might be the one to get through to them
This is not really a thing. It's a thing on tv and in films because it makes a neat narrative, but not so much in real life.
you cannot fix them
This is true. Like, the truest thing about any problem someone else has with their life.
I do not know whether or not you should seek to talk to them about their likely alcohol problem directly. But you can try and spend any time you have with them in ways that do not revolve around alcohol. You can also pay more attention and be more observant about what they are actually doing when you are together and if that is a problem, bring it up directly at the time. For example, during the video game you could have said "if you're not able to talk with me on voice chat, this isn't as much fun for me and we should try again another time"
posted by plonkee at 6:45 AM on December 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is not really a thing. It's a thing on tv and in films because it makes a neat narrative, but not so much in real life.
you cannot fix them
This is true. Like, the truest thing about any problem someone else has with their life.
I do not know whether or not you should seek to talk to them about their likely alcohol problem directly. But you can try and spend any time you have with them in ways that do not revolve around alcohol. You can also pay more attention and be more observant about what they are actually doing when you are together and if that is a problem, bring it up directly at the time. For example, during the video game you could have said "if you're not able to talk with me on voice chat, this isn't as much fun for me and we should try again another time"
posted by plonkee at 6:45 AM on December 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think investigating them this way is a breach of trust, though that was not your intent. Bringing it up could wreck the friendship, though it's going to come out, so find a way to disclose it. What you can do is say Friend, drinking seems like a pretty large part of your life these days. I'm concerned that it may be causing you trouble and harm. How can I help? What you can do is listen to them. Alcoholism is a disease with a level of choice. Judgement isn't useful, facts and listening and keeping them from the behind the wheel of a vehicle(harm reduction) are.
You cannot fix them. They are almost certainly aware of their alcohol use. Find out what resources are available in case they are interested in help. There is no magic window of opportunity. Some people are more physically susceptible to addiction, have family histories that make it more likely, most people know if they abuse alcohol, many layer denial over that. Support and love them as a person, don't participate in/ enable their drinking, be ready to help if they will accept it.
posted by theora55 at 7:18 AM on December 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
You cannot fix them. They are almost certainly aware of their alcohol use. Find out what resources are available in case they are interested in help. There is no magic window of opportunity. Some people are more physically susceptible to addiction, have family histories that make it more likely, most people know if they abuse alcohol, many layer denial over that. Support and love them as a person, don't participate in/ enable their drinking, be ready to help if they will accept it.
posted by theora55 at 7:18 AM on December 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
I mean, *is* C very good at hiding the extent of their consumption around you? Or are you good at avoiding the topic with them? (It seems like you've noticed a bunch of stuff that's made you concerned recently.)
You don't have to build up some kind of perfect court case or write an eloquent intervention speech. You can let C know that they're not concealing as well as they might think by naming what you're seeing in the moment, like, "You've been complaining a lot about hangovers lately, is everything cool?"
I agree that you shouldn't be doing so much conferring about C's drinking in secret, and it seems like the right thing to do is to bring that out into the open. C says, "Why were you worried?" you say, "I was worried because you disappeared from the chat and the game without saying anything, and Partner told me that you were passed out in your chair.* Is everything OK?"
You want to let them know that you're aware of what's going on with their drinking, and that you are concerned about them. You don't have to have a solution.
I know the physical health/mental health analogy is pretty overused at this point but imagine C had injured their dominant wrist to the point where they were doing almost all tasks single-handed with their non-dominant hand, but they were just like, "it's no big deal, why are you worried?" You'd say, "I'm worried because it seems like your wrist is really messed up! Can I help you with anything? Have you seen anyone about that? What's going on here?"
* I mean, probably they will respond to that with, "oh, Partner was exaggerating, I was just taking a nap [in a computer chair, in my gaming headset, with a game controller in my hand]" or something. And you don't have to call them out on that but you also don't have to pretend like you believe that!
posted by mskyle at 7:19 AM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
You don't have to build up some kind of perfect court case or write an eloquent intervention speech. You can let C know that they're not concealing as well as they might think by naming what you're seeing in the moment, like, "You've been complaining a lot about hangovers lately, is everything cool?"
I agree that you shouldn't be doing so much conferring about C's drinking in secret, and it seems like the right thing to do is to bring that out into the open. C says, "Why were you worried?" you say, "I was worried because you disappeared from the chat and the game without saying anything, and Partner told me that you were passed out in your chair.* Is everything OK?"
You want to let them know that you're aware of what's going on with their drinking, and that you are concerned about them. You don't have to have a solution.
I know the physical health/mental health analogy is pretty overused at this point but imagine C had injured their dominant wrist to the point where they were doing almost all tasks single-handed with their non-dominant hand, but they were just like, "it's no big deal, why are you worried?" You'd say, "I'm worried because it seems like your wrist is really messed up! Can I help you with anything? Have you seen anyone about that? What's going on here?"
* I mean, probably they will respond to that with, "oh, Partner was exaggerating, I was just taking a nap [in a computer chair, in my gaming headset, with a game controller in my hand]" or something. And you don't have to call them out on that but you also don't have to pretend like you believe that!
posted by mskyle at 7:19 AM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think you'll be most effective if you start from the premise that there is a lot you don't know about C's relationship to alcohol. I'm not saying you're wrong - the recent incident playing video games is concerning - but implicit in much of your post is a sense that your friend has a serious, deeply engrained problem. And you don't quite know that (depending on their gender, their previous habit of 1-2 drinks a night is within medical guidelines). What you do know that in the past few months they've started drinking to such a degree that they complain of hangovers, that they fight with their partner, and pass out while playing a video game with you. You don't know why this change has happened, or what it means for their future.
So I'd approach them with curiosity - this is general relationship advice - while not hiding what you know first-hand: "Hey friend, between your recent complaints of bad hangovers and then passing out the other night - alarming both me and your partner - it's clear you've started to drink heavily some nights. No judgement, but I'm just curious why this change? I've known you for a little over 10 years, and this isn't like you. What's changed?"
They may very well react badly to this, but that's okay - it avoids this change in them being a secret and hopefully their partner is having similar conversations with them. You can of course set boundaries with them going forward - like, if they keep passing out/behaving drunk at night, stop playing video games with them at night. If things get worse, you and the partner might consider sitting down and talking with them together - but I'd leave the ex out of this entirely.
posted by coffeecat at 7:26 AM on December 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
So I'd approach them with curiosity - this is general relationship advice - while not hiding what you know first-hand: "Hey friend, between your recent complaints of bad hangovers and then passing out the other night - alarming both me and your partner - it's clear you've started to drink heavily some nights. No judgement, but I'm just curious why this change? I've known you for a little over 10 years, and this isn't like you. What's changed?"
They may very well react badly to this, but that's okay - it avoids this change in them being a secret and hopefully their partner is having similar conversations with them. You can of course set boundaries with them going forward - like, if they keep passing out/behaving drunk at night, stop playing video games with them at night. If things get worse, you and the partner might consider sitting down and talking with them together - but I'd leave the ex out of this entirely.
posted by coffeecat at 7:26 AM on December 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
Not that I'm an expert in this topic, but they talk about people hitting rock bottom and wanting to stop drinking for themselves (not others) for a reason. I don't think YOU are going to be the special person who makes them choose to stop and turn their life around if they don't wanna stop yet. If all three of you desperately want to Say Something, perhaps a group intervention might be more effective, but it seems not too likely that C will stop if people just speak up about it. I wouldn't put that pressure on yourself to be the hero here.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:53 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:53 AM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
FWIW, experts in addiction medicine generally consider the "needing to hit rock bottom" concept to be a destructive myth (and a lot of them are pretty skeptical about staged interventions as well).
You don't have to be "the hero", just be there for your friend, let them know they are seen, and let them know that you're worried about what you're seeing. And set boundaries/enforce natural consequences - it's OK to say, "I don't want to game with you if you're going to drop off while we're playing."
posted by mskyle at 8:16 AM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
You don't have to be "the hero", just be there for your friend, let them know they are seen, and let them know that you're worried about what you're seeing. And set boundaries/enforce natural consequences - it's OK to say, "I don't want to game with you if you're going to drop off while we're playing."
posted by mskyle at 8:16 AM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
My alcoholism was severe. Like, by the end, I was drunk around the clock (including at work). I've been sober 12+ years now.
One of my friends was the reason I got sober. What made the most difference to me - what finally got through to me - was seeing how much my drinking was hurting them. Not that I was doing anything to them - I was never an angry or mean drunk - but just because they cared about me, and it hurt them to see me doing this to myself.
I had other friends who just slowly faded away. Or got angry at me. Or whatever. That was totally fair, but not particularly helpful.
Don't be accusatory. Recognize that they may not be in a place to stop yet. This is not a situation you can control. But you can be their friend, and express what you've noticed, make it clear you care, and are concerned, and that you're their for them.
And then accept that's all you can do. And they may not be ready to get sober until the consequences pile up. And also, that it often takes multiple attempts to get sober. It took me 2.5 years to finally maintain long term sobriety.
If they do seem open to it at any point, you could always offer to go to an AA mtg with them. They don't have to follow the steps or believe in god or even commit to staying sober indefinitely, but the support can be helpful when getting sober. I don't go to meetings anymore, but I did when I was first getting sober.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:01 AM on December 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
One of my friends was the reason I got sober. What made the most difference to me - what finally got through to me - was seeing how much my drinking was hurting them. Not that I was doing anything to them - I was never an angry or mean drunk - but just because they cared about me, and it hurt them to see me doing this to myself.
I had other friends who just slowly faded away. Or got angry at me. Or whatever. That was totally fair, but not particularly helpful.
Don't be accusatory. Recognize that they may not be in a place to stop yet. This is not a situation you can control. But you can be their friend, and express what you've noticed, make it clear you care, and are concerned, and that you're their for them.
And then accept that's all you can do. And they may not be ready to get sober until the consequences pile up. And also, that it often takes multiple attempts to get sober. It took me 2.5 years to finally maintain long term sobriety.
If they do seem open to it at any point, you could always offer to go to an AA mtg with them. They don't have to follow the steps or believe in god or even commit to staying sober indefinitely, but the support can be helpful when getting sober. I don't go to meetings anymore, but I did when I was first getting sober.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:01 AM on December 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
One thing worth highlighting that's been implicit in the other very good answers here is that if you decide to address this with C, you have to accept the possibility or outcome that they could react poorly to this, whether that's getting angry/defensive, blowing it off, trying to convince you otherwise - whatever it might be, try to be accepting of where they're at (which I emphasize does not mean "agreeing with", "approving of," or "condoning").
And what I say here is really of a piece with "you cannot fix them" - in the same way that's true, please don't spend too much effort trying to figure out a way to phrase what you'd like to say so as to make sure you don't cause them to become angry, defensive, evasive, dismissive, whatever - you cannot control that either. But since they are your friend and you care a great deal about them, that's reason enough to say something, even if it doesn't go over well or fix them. Good luck!
posted by obliterati at 10:29 AM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
And what I say here is really of a piece with "you cannot fix them" - in the same way that's true, please don't spend too much effort trying to figure out a way to phrase what you'd like to say so as to make sure you don't cause them to become angry, defensive, evasive, dismissive, whatever - you cannot control that either. But since they are your friend and you care a great deal about them, that's reason enough to say something, even if it doesn't go over well or fix them. Good luck!
posted by obliterati at 10:29 AM on December 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
As a person with a sober alcoholic/addict in my life, I give a big old shrug, meaning there is absolutely no correct answer here. Do what feels right, given what you know about this person and your relationship, and yes, go to Al-Anon because your life is being affected by someone else's drinking. Your approach, no matter what it is, might help them. It might not. Shrug. Because whether or not they decide to get sober, it'll come 100% from them. Whether they hit some mystery "rock bottom" or not comes from them. Whether they stay this way for the rest of their life, or deteriorate, or thrive, comes 100% from them. There's literally nothing you can do to make it happen in any direction.
Every Al-Anon meeting is different. If you don't like one, try another. Try a men's/women's meeting, if you'd like. Try one in person or one on Zoom.
I'm sorry - this sucks! I know deeply how much this sucks. But the kindness of you caring about your friend doesn't mitigate in any way the fact that everything will come from them, not you.
Lastly I'll also say that my personal opinion is that addicts and alcoholics don't deserve our privacy re: their using/drinking. Again, shrug. If you don't want me to talk about you using/drinking, then stop doing it.
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:50 PM on December 14, 2023
Every Al-Anon meeting is different. If you don't like one, try another. Try a men's/women's meeting, if you'd like. Try one in person or one on Zoom.
I'm sorry - this sucks! I know deeply how much this sucks. But the kindness of you caring about your friend doesn't mitigate in any way the fact that everything will come from them, not you.
Lastly I'll also say that my personal opinion is that addicts and alcoholics don't deserve our privacy re: their using/drinking. Again, shrug. If you don't want me to talk about you using/drinking, then stop doing it.
posted by BlahLaLa at 12:50 PM on December 14, 2023
There’s not going to be a right answer. But from knowing a few addicts through my life I suspect you are not the right person to get them to start changing things, because you are too close and important to them.
You ever have a secret and it’s like, you NEED to tell someone but you can’t tell any of your close people so you blurt it out to an acquaintance or tertiary friend who doesn’t really know anyone else you know? Or, is it ever easier to talk about a problem with faceless people on the internet instead of your parents or spouse? That’s because a lot of the time to start making a big scary change we need to have a person we can confide in who crucially does not affect our day to day lives very much if at all. If they have a bad reaction or the relationship changes, the impact is much smaller and they are more replaceable in our lives. It can be a social survival mechanism. And my point is, from the text of your question it sounds like you are extremely important and unique to your friend to the point where they get anxious about seeming put together around you all the time. You are too high risk for them to lose, even if you have no intention of doing so.
I think it’s okay for you to start small and ask about their recent changes in behavior, say you’re worried and ask if they want to vent and you can just listen. Invite them to do things where being sober is easier than secretly drinking. Continue to educate yourself about best practices for supporting the addicts in your life. But I suspect a big confrontation about years of a habit and secrets and a reveal of people talking to each other and not them will end poorly. Be patient and show you will stay their friend through upheaval and problems, give them openings to talk to you, and encourage them to expand their social connections outside of you and their current partner.
posted by Mizu at 2:47 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
You ever have a secret and it’s like, you NEED to tell someone but you can’t tell any of your close people so you blurt it out to an acquaintance or tertiary friend who doesn’t really know anyone else you know? Or, is it ever easier to talk about a problem with faceless people on the internet instead of your parents or spouse? That’s because a lot of the time to start making a big scary change we need to have a person we can confide in who crucially does not affect our day to day lives very much if at all. If they have a bad reaction or the relationship changes, the impact is much smaller and they are more replaceable in our lives. It can be a social survival mechanism. And my point is, from the text of your question it sounds like you are extremely important and unique to your friend to the point where they get anxious about seeming put together around you all the time. You are too high risk for them to lose, even if you have no intention of doing so.
I think it’s okay for you to start small and ask about their recent changes in behavior, say you’re worried and ask if they want to vent and you can just listen. Invite them to do things where being sober is easier than secretly drinking. Continue to educate yourself about best practices for supporting the addicts in your life. But I suspect a big confrontation about years of a habit and secrets and a reveal of people talking to each other and not them will end poorly. Be patient and show you will stay their friend through upheaval and problems, give them openings to talk to you, and encourage them to expand their social connections outside of you and their current partner.
posted by Mizu at 2:47 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have no answers, but as I just lost a friend to alcoholism this week.... I hope your friend decides to get sober.
posted by luckynerd at 2:47 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by luckynerd at 2:47 PM on December 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
The way you're asking this suggests you feel like you need evidence and citations. What would it look like if you said to them something like, "I'm concerned about alcohol in your life. Can we talk about it?" The only time I spoke with anyone about their drinking was someone I had only been dating about two months or so at that point. They were super defensive, and I ended things the next day. But I definitely don't regret the conversation, which was very illuminating. In retrospect, a lot of things made a lot more sense when I realized they were an alcoholic.
Also, it sounds like the reason ex-partner and current partner think you're the person who can talk to them about this is related to the fact that you're one of their only social connections outside of their romantic relationship. This is a good thing for a friend to do, regardless of their reaction. It will take a bit of courage, and it might not go as you'd hope. It still a good thing to do.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:13 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, it sounds like the reason ex-partner and current partner think you're the person who can talk to them about this is related to the fact that you're one of their only social connections outside of their romantic relationship. This is a good thing for a friend to do, regardless of their reaction. It will take a bit of courage, and it might not go as you'd hope. It still a good thing to do.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:13 PM on December 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a retired alcoholic(of like 5 years now), from a family of alcoholics. a few things came to mind here. I've also lost a couple friends over the years to it.
One of them is that a lot of people lionize/glamorize their drinking as if it's funny, casual, silly etc. Some people are stuck in a place where they still on some deep level think they're "sticking it" to mom/dad/their judgemental ex/the system/etc even if they're older than you would think for that. Some people never got past real, deep traumas you might have never heard about. This can be compounded if someone grew up around, or spent a lot of times around an alcoholic when they were younger.
The reason i'm bringing this is up is that for both myself, and a lot of people i know(or knew) someone coming to them concerned would have been played off or deflected until i saw the cracks starting to show and would have been more amenable to talking about it.
And i think you should just sit down and have a simple, direct conversation with them about how you're concerned. No one else involved, casual setting, preferably not in public or at a restaurant or something, not trapped in your car or out of town staying with you. Just casually sitting on the couch.
For me at least, those didn't do much for me either. But i appreciated them in retrospect. And i really, really think it's worth trying.
I also wouldn't bring up the ex, or partner, or anything. When i was drinking i would have disassembled the conversation like a KGB agent if that was brought up and completely, successfully, derailed the entire thing and changed the parameters of the whole convo. Most alcoholics ive known were clever, witty people who were adept at manipulating conversations... and triply so if it involved substances. A lot of people are basically hitting the gym with this when it comes to covering for themselves at work, etc. Just a simple, direct, "hey i've picked up on this and i'm concerned, i care about you, do you wanna talk about it for a bit?" is all you need here. Short sweet and to the point.
I'm a non-believer in """rock bottom""" or 12 step or anything, but i do believe that people need to have accepted where they're at and want to change to change. But god i was really sad when i learned that there were several people i really cared about who were concerned as hell and didn't feel like they could say anything, or thought it wasn't their place, etc.
Even if you get shut down, i still think it's worth doing. And that what you're doing here is honorable.
posted by emptythought at 5:32 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
One of them is that a lot of people lionize/glamorize their drinking as if it's funny, casual, silly etc. Some people are stuck in a place where they still on some deep level think they're "sticking it" to mom/dad/their judgemental ex/the system/etc even if they're older than you would think for that. Some people never got past real, deep traumas you might have never heard about. This can be compounded if someone grew up around, or spent a lot of times around an alcoholic when they were younger.
The reason i'm bringing this is up is that for both myself, and a lot of people i know(or knew) someone coming to them concerned would have been played off or deflected until i saw the cracks starting to show and would have been more amenable to talking about it.
And i think you should just sit down and have a simple, direct conversation with them about how you're concerned. No one else involved, casual setting, preferably not in public or at a restaurant or something, not trapped in your car or out of town staying with you. Just casually sitting on the couch.
For me at least, those didn't do much for me either. But i appreciated them in retrospect. And i really, really think it's worth trying.
I also wouldn't bring up the ex, or partner, or anything. When i was drinking i would have disassembled the conversation like a KGB agent if that was brought up and completely, successfully, derailed the entire thing and changed the parameters of the whole convo. Most alcoholics ive known were clever, witty people who were adept at manipulating conversations... and triply so if it involved substances. A lot of people are basically hitting the gym with this when it comes to covering for themselves at work, etc. Just a simple, direct, "hey i've picked up on this and i'm concerned, i care about you, do you wanna talk about it for a bit?" is all you need here. Short sweet and to the point.
I'm a non-believer in """rock bottom""" or 12 step or anything, but i do believe that people need to have accepted where they're at and want to change to change. But god i was really sad when i learned that there were several people i really cared about who were concerned as hell and didn't feel like they could say anything, or thought it wasn't their place, etc.
Even if you get shut down, i still think it's worth doing. And that what you're doing here is honorable.
posted by emptythought at 5:32 PM on December 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Talk about how their behavior affects you -- that's the only thing you can do that might make a difference. You don't have to make any general statements, just mention when you notice something. "You're slurring your words, so I need to ring off." "You've gotten quiet...let's talk another time." "I don't enjoy talking to you when you're intoxicated." If you're engaging with them and you feel uncomfortable because they're drinking, disengage.
Drinking is a problem when it causes problems in a person's life...with their job, with their relationships, with their safety and the safety of others. Unless you're talking about an actual problem caused by alcohol, your words won't mean anything to them.
posted by wryly at 8:04 AM on December 15, 2023
Drinking is a problem when it causes problems in a person's life...with their job, with their relationships, with their safety and the safety of others. Unless you're talking about an actual problem caused by alcohol, your words won't mean anything to them.
posted by wryly at 8:04 AM on December 15, 2023
Please don't attempt to stage an intervention with (or without) your friend's ex or present partner.
You do not have to prove that your friend has an alcohol use disorder. Your idea to attend Alanon meetings is a good one. As others have mentioned, Alanon groups vary. Seek out one that works for you. Do that before you decide to talk with your friend. If your friend is truly an alcoholic, you should get some tools from professionals before you try to deal with it.
posted by mule98J at 1:29 PM on December 15, 2023
You do not have to prove that your friend has an alcohol use disorder. Your idea to attend Alanon meetings is a good one. As others have mentioned, Alanon groups vary. Seek out one that works for you. Do that before you decide to talk with your friend. If your friend is truly an alcoholic, you should get some tools from professionals before you try to deal with it.
posted by mule98J at 1:29 PM on December 15, 2023
I was in an over a decade long relationship with a Functional Alcoholic. Never a hangover, and a strict schedule with his drinking. Like clockwork at 3:30pm each day he'd grab a beer, then another, then a glass of wine with dinner, then a tall after dinner cocktail. I followed him in to the kitchen once when he was fixing his screwdriver... a tall glass 3/4 filled with vodka and a literal splash of oj! Me being very non confrontational, and him getting highly offended at the slightest question of anything he did, I let it go. I wish like hell I'd driven him to an AA meeting or done Something. The guilt eats me up. So, I guess my message is Do Something. Talk to him. Tell him that if he continues he will Die. Assure him you'll be supportive, but he needs to stop. I'm so sorry.
posted by SoftSummerBreeze at 8:32 AM on December 16, 2023
posted by SoftSummerBreeze at 8:32 AM on December 16, 2023
I'm...oh, wow, 600 days sober tomorrow! I think there's no one path to helping someone with alcoholism, and what feels really scary about this is that your friend may end the friendship over this. They might not! But they might. It really depends on the person and the alcoholism.
No one really talked to me about my drinking. I don't think it was especially hard to see, and what I wished then and wished now is for someone to have said - while I was sober, and when we were together in person: I see that you're drinking a lot. You're skipping stuff because of hangovers. How do you feel about your drinking? Or something similar.
Multiple people doing this together would have felt awful and scary, and I was already feeling awful and scared. I knew I wasn't in control. I don't know if that sort of conversation would have stopped my drinking, but it would have planted a seed. It would have let me know I wasn't fooling anyone.
The one person who did ask about my drinking? She's still my close friend. Some of the people who didn't? Still another close friend. I know that I hid my drinking and that drinking at a level that's a problem is REALLY hard to approach someone about. I know that because another friend struggled with this and I said nothing, and I regret that.
But there were other times and other friendships where I did one and only once raise a concern, and it mostly didn't do anything in the moment. It didn't end any friendships, but for a few of them, it did mean I was a person they could turn to when that thing got worse, or when they decided they needed help. I had shown that I was aware of *something* and would hear or help them without judgement. And I feel good about that.
I hope your friend finds help, and that you do make use of the resources available to people who are affected by a loved one's drinking. If you want to talk with me more about this, please feel free to message me!
posted by punchtothehead at 5:52 AM on December 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
No one really talked to me about my drinking. I don't think it was especially hard to see, and what I wished then and wished now is for someone to have said - while I was sober, and when we were together in person: I see that you're drinking a lot. You're skipping stuff because of hangovers. How do you feel about your drinking? Or something similar.
Multiple people doing this together would have felt awful and scary, and I was already feeling awful and scared. I knew I wasn't in control. I don't know if that sort of conversation would have stopped my drinking, but it would have planted a seed. It would have let me know I wasn't fooling anyone.
The one person who did ask about my drinking? She's still my close friend. Some of the people who didn't? Still another close friend. I know that I hid my drinking and that drinking at a level that's a problem is REALLY hard to approach someone about. I know that because another friend struggled with this and I said nothing, and I regret that.
But there were other times and other friendships where I did one and only once raise a concern, and it mostly didn't do anything in the moment. It didn't end any friendships, but for a few of them, it did mean I was a person they could turn to when that thing got worse, or when they decided they needed help. I had shown that I was aware of *something* and would hear or help them without judgement. And I feel good about that.
I hope your friend finds help, and that you do make use of the resources available to people who are affected by a loved one's drinking. If you want to talk with me more about this, please feel free to message me!
posted by punchtothehead at 5:52 AM on December 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: From the OP:
Thanks everyone for the personal and reasoned responses. I ceased talking about C's behavior and habits with others (except my therapist) and decided to bring it up with them during a recent hangout. I waited until we were both in our usual conversational mode over dinner and simply said, 'hey - I've been noticing that you've been drinking more and talking about having more frequent hangovers. I'm concerned because I care a lot about you and wanted to see how you felt about that.' they responded that yes, they had probably been drinking more in the past few months and that it had been a particularly rough year, emotionally. They asked if we could talk more about that another time and I said of course. They said they appreciated that I was concerned and that it felt nice to be cared for. I honestly think that was probably one of the better ways it could've gone - they know that I noticed, I care, and they're willing to open up more about it.posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 3:58 AM on December 21, 2023
Thank you again to everyone. I felt a bit out of my depth thinking I had to investigate and make sure I knew what the truth was before addressing it in a serious way, when all I needed was some very basic observations of my own, and a simple and open conversation with a friend.
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It may be that C will seek treatment as a result of people they care about refusing to ignore the problem. Or it may happen when they get blackout drunk. Or it may happen when they get in a car accident. Or it may not happen. You and your friends should stop keeping the secret regardless.
posted by eleslie at 6:43 AM on December 14, 2023 [10 favorites]