Should I expose the behaviour or not?
November 6, 2023 2:30 PM Subscribe
I joined a cover band back in March. I found an ad on a website for musicians and wrote to them and they invited me to try out as the singer. On the same day as the trial, I had a doctor’s appointment. Coincidentally, my appointment was at the medical practice of the man in the band who made contact with me, the drummer. Pure coincidence!
Well my appointment was with his colleague, but his name was on the door of the practice…. And right after I went to his home to try out with this band.
So I had this feeling, this is great and just where I’m supposed to be. I liked all the other musicians , we were 5 in total, I was the only woman. One guy is 5 years older than me. And the others are in their early 60s, so 20 years older. But music can transcend age.
So we all were doing well together. I learned all the songs. We also had a show once at a boat club where the drummer was a member.
I met their wives/partners and their kids.
But once or twice the drummer had complimented my appearance. I never said anything back.
Another time i was sick and couldn’t make it, and he wrote me to ask if I needed any medical help or help otherwise fixing anything at home. I was pretty naive, looking back. I thanked him, thinking he was really caring, but declined the offer. It did raise a red flag for me but I thought at the same time he could just be a caring doctor who likes to help.
On the day of our small show, there was a boat ride and all the boats would sail a short route. I joined him and his wife and young daughter on their boat (at his invitation). The other band members didn’t make it. Some had already been on his boat. His wife was a very outspoken person and not so warm.
He subtly picked a fight with her about how to tie up the boat (docking) and untie it and asked her not to blow up. After which she sure did explode.
It was very uncomfortable for me to be their while they fought.
After this I was supposed to sing for two hours and my nerves were a wreck but I managed.
Well as things developed over time and we were all trying to decide on new songs to expand our repertoire , he suggested songs in the group chat but he also suggested a song to me directly by message. His simultaneous comments with the group were about a certain singer being sexy etc. and then he was writing me directly about some song that maybe suited my voice.
After we agreed on a song , he wrote me he that he is thinking of me.
After this i was sort of shocked and just didn’t respond. Days later he wrote me to ask me if I was mad at him. I said I wasn’t but I don’t want any misunderstandings.
After this he responded the next day, “understood. And it’s best to talk about these things so that one doesn’t run off with any ideas.”
I said nothing in response. A week went by.
So it seemed after this like the boundary was understood but we all had a barbecue for the band at his house shortly thereafter and I kept my distance from him.
After this he wrote me , “Sorry if I came too close to you.“Then he reworded everything and wrote, “Sorry that I came too close to you.”
I didn’t answer at all. Another week went by.
The morning of the following band practice , he wrote me that he is looking forward to the practice despite everything.
But at this point, I decided to leave the band.
I just didn’t want him chasing me. I wrote a message only because I knew they would ask questions if it was in person and I didn’t want to go back to his house , where band always took place. I also didn’t want any drama or to embarrass him. And what if his wife was at home and it all went badly? I just didn’t want to get involved in anything.
I know for some it is harmless but I think this kind of flirting is not acceptable and is disrespectful.
Well I told the band that something happened that changed things for me and unfortunately I can’t continue singing.
And then I never came back for 3 weeks. They were devastated. Eventually I had to pick up my platters from the barbecue because he had already loaded the dishwasher so I couldn’t just take them with me that day.
Well to try make things short, I went to pick up and he said the group had asked that he try ein me back. But he told me they don’t know about what happened. He apologized and fed me some nonsense about feeling like soul mates… that he is introverted like me and he‘s normally a good judge of character. He said he genuinely likes me and nothing more , it was just an appreciation of my character. Then he said he’s sure i developed a picture of how things are with his wife.
Then he said despite everything he still likes me and he thought I would have appreciated hearing that someone likes me, instead of reacting badly.
Well I accepted the apology and reiterated where my boundaries are. He accepted and told me he wouldn’t contact me anymore, I said it is better he doesn’t . He asked me not to tell the band as it is something between he and I, and telling them would move things to a moral level. I agreed I wouldn’t and told him I don’t want to embarrass anyone , but he should know my boundary.
Parallel to this there have been fights between band members about the songs and the styles of music and which notes and should we play just like the original or do our own thing etc etc.
so much Drama. In the end the guitarist, the one closer to my age left.
I also decided not to stay anymore. But when I told them last week , i received comments that I already up and left them without even giving a reason.
The drummer piped in and said to them that we had had a disagreement and that’s why I left that time.
And when I said to them I feel quite exhausted by all the conflicts, he tried to speak up for me and reword what I said so it would sound more satisfactory as an answer for the other members.
I was quite shocked and annoyed that he tried to speak for me but I realized he felt guilty that they were mad at me because I left , which he had caused.
I said I would come a few more times until I travel end of this month.
But they already have new people coming auditioning to replace the young guitarist.
I don’t know why at first I thought it better not to say anything because the problem would grow.
But now I feel like he just gets away with it all and takes no responsibility.
His wife is now unfriendly when I ring the doorbell to go to band practice.
Even when I first met them I thought I could become friends with his wife… she is also from the same region of the world as I am.
But he ruined that.
I also wanted to tell the others at least but the one I felt most comfortable with, the younger guitarist, well his partner is a long time friend of the drummer‘s wife and from the same country.
So I thought I shouldn’t tell the guitarist because he would tell his wife who would tell her friend and then it would all just get messy.
So I remained vague and just left.
Now the guitarist already quit, but is still in the chat group.
Well I intended to go a few more times so I again didn’t say properly goodbye.
But now the more angry I feel, I don’t want to go anymore. So I considered to write a message again and leave permanently. In the message I also wanted to clarify why I left the very first time. I dislike that they have the wrong impression of me, always leaving.
Is it a <good idea to tell them that he hit on me and clear my name? Or should I just leave and say nothing?
So I had this feeling, this is great and just where I’m supposed to be. I liked all the other musicians , we were 5 in total, I was the only woman. One guy is 5 years older than me. And the others are in their early 60s, so 20 years older. But music can transcend age.
So we all were doing well together. I learned all the songs. We also had a show once at a boat club where the drummer was a member.
I met their wives/partners and their kids.
But once or twice the drummer had complimented my appearance. I never said anything back.
Another time i was sick and couldn’t make it, and he wrote me to ask if I needed any medical help or help otherwise fixing anything at home. I was pretty naive, looking back. I thanked him, thinking he was really caring, but declined the offer. It did raise a red flag for me but I thought at the same time he could just be a caring doctor who likes to help.
On the day of our small show, there was a boat ride and all the boats would sail a short route. I joined him and his wife and young daughter on their boat (at his invitation). The other band members didn’t make it. Some had already been on his boat. His wife was a very outspoken person and not so warm.
He subtly picked a fight with her about how to tie up the boat (docking) and untie it and asked her not to blow up. After which she sure did explode.
It was very uncomfortable for me to be their while they fought.
After this I was supposed to sing for two hours and my nerves were a wreck but I managed.
Well as things developed over time and we were all trying to decide on new songs to expand our repertoire , he suggested songs in the group chat but he also suggested a song to me directly by message. His simultaneous comments with the group were about a certain singer being sexy etc. and then he was writing me directly about some song that maybe suited my voice.
After we agreed on a song , he wrote me he that he is thinking of me.
After this i was sort of shocked and just didn’t respond. Days later he wrote me to ask me if I was mad at him. I said I wasn’t but I don’t want any misunderstandings.
After this he responded the next day, “understood. And it’s best to talk about these things so that one doesn’t run off with any ideas.”
I said nothing in response. A week went by.
So it seemed after this like the boundary was understood but we all had a barbecue for the band at his house shortly thereafter and I kept my distance from him.
After this he wrote me , “Sorry if I came too close to you.“Then he reworded everything and wrote, “Sorry that I came too close to you.”
I didn’t answer at all. Another week went by.
The morning of the following band practice , he wrote me that he is looking forward to the practice despite everything.
But at this point, I decided to leave the band.
I just didn’t want him chasing me. I wrote a message only because I knew they would ask questions if it was in person and I didn’t want to go back to his house , where band always took place. I also didn’t want any drama or to embarrass him. And what if his wife was at home and it all went badly? I just didn’t want to get involved in anything.
I know for some it is harmless but I think this kind of flirting is not acceptable and is disrespectful.
Well I told the band that something happened that changed things for me and unfortunately I can’t continue singing.
And then I never came back for 3 weeks. They were devastated. Eventually I had to pick up my platters from the barbecue because he had already loaded the dishwasher so I couldn’t just take them with me that day.
Well to try make things short, I went to pick up and he said the group had asked that he try ein me back. But he told me they don’t know about what happened. He apologized and fed me some nonsense about feeling like soul mates… that he is introverted like me and he‘s normally a good judge of character. He said he genuinely likes me and nothing more , it was just an appreciation of my character. Then he said he’s sure i developed a picture of how things are with his wife.
Then he said despite everything he still likes me and he thought I would have appreciated hearing that someone likes me, instead of reacting badly.
Well I accepted the apology and reiterated where my boundaries are. He accepted and told me he wouldn’t contact me anymore, I said it is better he doesn’t . He asked me not to tell the band as it is something between he and I, and telling them would move things to a moral level. I agreed I wouldn’t and told him I don’t want to embarrass anyone , but he should know my boundary.
Parallel to this there have been fights between band members about the songs and the styles of music and which notes and should we play just like the original or do our own thing etc etc.
so much Drama. In the end the guitarist, the one closer to my age left.
I also decided not to stay anymore. But when I told them last week , i received comments that I already up and left them without even giving a reason.
The drummer piped in and said to them that we had had a disagreement and that’s why I left that time.
And when I said to them I feel quite exhausted by all the conflicts, he tried to speak up for me and reword what I said so it would sound more satisfactory as an answer for the other members.
I was quite shocked and annoyed that he tried to speak for me but I realized he felt guilty that they were mad at me because I left , which he had caused.
I said I would come a few more times until I travel end of this month.
But they already have new people coming auditioning to replace the young guitarist.
I don’t know why at first I thought it better not to say anything because the problem would grow.
But now I feel like he just gets away with it all and takes no responsibility.
His wife is now unfriendly when I ring the doorbell to go to band practice.
Even when I first met them I thought I could become friends with his wife… she is also from the same region of the world as I am.
But he ruined that.
I also wanted to tell the others at least but the one I felt most comfortable with, the younger guitarist, well his partner is a long time friend of the drummer‘s wife and from the same country.
So I thought I shouldn’t tell the guitarist because he would tell his wife who would tell her friend and then it would all just get messy.
So I remained vague and just left.
Now the guitarist already quit, but is still in the chat group.
Well I intended to go a few more times so I again didn’t say properly goodbye.
But now the more angry I feel, I don’t want to go anymore. So I considered to write a message again and leave permanently. In the message I also wanted to clarify why I left the very first time. I dislike that they have the wrong impression of me, always leaving.
Is it a <good idea to tell them that he hit on me and clear my name? Or should I just leave and say nothing?
Musician here. Just walk away from this trainwreck and don’t look back. You don’t owe anyone anything. If any of the other band members have been with him for any decent amount of time, I’ll bet they already know about his shady side.
posted by gnutron at 2:45 PM on November 6, 2023 [44 favorites]
posted by gnutron at 2:45 PM on November 6, 2023 [44 favorites]
You have already wasted so much of your good and valuable time trying to manage the emotions of all of these men who need to be responsible for themselves. Ignore them. Let them think whatever they want. It is immaterial. You deserve to be free.
It took me a minute to figure this out for myself but I no longer entertain any manner of relationship (acquaintance or otherwise) with men who:
-speak poorly about the women in their lives
-speak poorly to the women in their lives
-have any expectation that I will hold or manage their emotional state
-imply at any point that I have "misunderstood" something overtly inappropriate they have said or done
I just won't. I am done. It's just not worth my time. Dr Band Loser would have failed out early by my rubric.
You are welcome to live your life as you please, I'm just sharing my perspective of being SO MUCH HAPPIER with my friendships and relationships since I set these boundaries.
posted by phunniemee at 2:57 PM on November 6, 2023 [75 favorites]
It took me a minute to figure this out for myself but I no longer entertain any manner of relationship (acquaintance or otherwise) with men who:
-speak poorly about the women in their lives
-speak poorly to the women in their lives
-have any expectation that I will hold or manage their emotional state
-imply at any point that I have "misunderstood" something overtly inappropriate they have said or done
I just won't. I am done. It's just not worth my time. Dr Band Loser would have failed out early by my rubric.
You are welcome to live your life as you please, I'm just sharing my perspective of being SO MUCH HAPPIER with my friendships and relationships since I set these boundaries.
posted by phunniemee at 2:57 PM on November 6, 2023 [75 favorites]
Yeah, I appreciate the desire to stick up for yourself - you did nothing wrong here! - but with some people there is no point to doing so, you'll save yourself a headache by just cutting ties completely. If you'd like to try and branch off with the guitarist, you could just contact them directly. But I'd forget about the other two.
posted by coffeecat at 3:10 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 3:10 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
This ship has sailed. No, seriously! Let it go.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 3:37 PM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 3:37 PM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think you should be less involved with this band's drama, not more. Tell them you're done and actually mean it this time, no more going back just a few more times. Leave the group chats. If one or more of the band members wants to think badly of you, so be it - don't get caught up in defending yourself. Just go l.
posted by Stacey at 4:30 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 4:30 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
If it makes you feel any better, I’m sure they know what the drummer is like without you having to say anything. Most groups of men with a guy like this drummer in their ranks will know which one of them is a dog/player/fuckboy (or whatever the 60-something equivalent is,) even if they don’t know the specifics. And they may even think all the women who enter and quickly exit his orbit are somehow the problem—and you want NO part of a group like that.
It seems to me you already quit more than once, the drummer is only going to get worse, the only one near your age left, you are totally free to cut ties. Don’t worry about clearing your name—they either already know and don’t care or if they find out they’ll make you into a villain.
posted by kapers at 5:27 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
It seems to me you already quit more than once, the drummer is only going to get worse, the only one near your age left, you are totally free to cut ties. Don’t worry about clearing your name—they either already know and don’t care or if they find out they’ll make you into a villain.
posted by kapers at 5:27 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
You help yourself first. Don't worry about anyone else. Oxygen rules.
posted by kschang at 6:16 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kschang at 6:16 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm in favor of saying something if you can completely disengage afterwards. I believe there's internal personal value and external communal value in refusing to cover up this man's behavior for him. Be brief, direct, and then don't reply if anyone wants to talk or get details.
"Hi band members, I want to clarify why I left the band initially. Drummer was inappropriate with me a number of times. I asked him to stop, and he asked me to not tell any of you about it. He then continued being inappropriate. I won't be responding to any messages, so that I can distance myself from the situation.
Best of luck with your music,
ari sings"
posted by cocoagirl at 7:06 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Hi band members, I want to clarify why I left the band initially. Drummer was inappropriate with me a number of times. I asked him to stop, and he asked me to not tell any of you about it. He then continued being inappropriate. I won't be responding to any messages, so that I can distance myself from the situation.
Best of luck with your music,
ari sings"
posted by cocoagirl at 7:06 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all for your advice.
Yes I left once, by text message. I thought it was permanent and I don’t have to see them otherwise.
After his apology and making clear where I stand,I went back because I felt I am then depriving myself of a fun activity because of his inappropriate behavior.
This is the second time leaving and I told them in person. I said I would continue until i travel in December, after which I quit permanently. So I never really said bye but now I think it makes no sense to go at all, the way I feel. Unfortunately I never said the real reason why; I just didn’t want a big drama or fight.
But I didn’t expect that they would respond negatively towards me if I left again and hold the first departure against me. Even though it’s my right to decide that. I guess I am angry that I am receiving this negativity when it was because of someone else.
Thank you everyone for reading my long message.
I needed some clarity, thank you.
posted by ari sings at 9:34 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes I left once, by text message. I thought it was permanent and I don’t have to see them otherwise.
After his apology and making clear where I stand,I went back because I felt I am then depriving myself of a fun activity because of his inappropriate behavior.
This is the second time leaving and I told them in person. I said I would continue until i travel in December, after which I quit permanently. So I never really said bye but now I think it makes no sense to go at all, the way I feel. Unfortunately I never said the real reason why; I just didn’t want a big drama or fight.
But I didn’t expect that they would respond negatively towards me if I left again and hold the first departure against me. Even though it’s my right to decide that. I guess I am angry that I am receiving this negativity when it was because of someone else.
Thank you everyone for reading my long message.
I needed some clarity, thank you.
posted by ari sings at 9:34 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
First—for the love of all that is holy—stop going back.
Honestly, I would just tell the band the truth, block them all, and be done with it—you don’t owe silence to your harasser.
And his trying to rewrite himself as the poor misunderstood victim is shameful. His wife may be pissy because she’s been putting up with his philandering for years.
posted by blueberry at 2:30 AM on November 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
Honestly, I would just tell the band the truth, block them all, and be done with it—you don’t owe silence to your harasser.
And his trying to rewrite himself as the poor misunderstood victim is shameful. His wife may be pissy because she’s been putting up with his philandering for years.
posted by blueberry at 2:30 AM on November 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'd be very surprised if these people don't know this guy is a sleazebo. Don't worry about them judging you. If there is one of them you really get along with, you could mention it to them, as a favor to any other woman they try to recruit.
posted by BibiRose at 3:48 AM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 3:48 AM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
UGH. All of this is so, so typical of sleazeball older dudes who take advantage of clubs and hobby groups to scope out and "just appreciate the character of [unless you'd like to sleep with me!!! jkjklol why are you so sensitive but on another note I'm divorcing my wife and I'm SO SAD about it because I'm an INFJ]" younger women. Fuckin A.
All of this was already obnoxious and shady, but the part where Dr McFeelingstexts asked you not to tell the rest of the group? That part is where he took the leap from obnoxious to creepy. How dare he disrespect you like that, THEN try to tell you what you can and can't say about it to your bandmates?!
I'll tell you how he dares: it's because he's done this before, probably multiple times, and the rest of the group is either already fed up or else coming dangerously close to realizing that this guy, and not whoever he drove out, is actually the problem. For this reason I would vote for telling either the whole group or else just the member you're closest with, and then blocking them forever.
posted by peakes at 6:02 AM on November 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
All of this was already obnoxious and shady, but the part where Dr McFeelingstexts asked you not to tell the rest of the group? That part is where he took the leap from obnoxious to creepy. How dare he disrespect you like that, THEN try to tell you what you can and can't say about it to your bandmates?!
I'll tell you how he dares: it's because he's done this before, probably multiple times, and the rest of the group is either already fed up or else coming dangerously close to realizing that this guy, and not whoever he drove out, is actually the problem. For this reason I would vote for telling either the whole group or else just the member you're closest with, and then blocking them forever.
posted by peakes at 6:02 AM on November 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
To avoid abusing the edit button: actually dude's behavior was already creepy before he asked you not to tell; the latter is where it went from "ew" to "actively predatory, eliminate with extreme prejudice".
posted by peakes at 6:08 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by peakes at 6:08 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
You're not obligated to say anything but I think I would probably tell them in case it helps the next woman who joins the band - and then block them and don't go back. It's so messed up that this happens when you're just trying to have a good time being in a band.
posted by omnie at 8:56 AM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by omnie at 8:56 AM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for the input.
I left and cut ties.
posted by ari sings at 12:52 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
I left and cut ties.
posted by ari sings at 12:52 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
The band absolutely sounds like a train wreck. The guy sounds like a sleaze and I’m glad you left. The one other piece of advice I would give is to be more specific about what happened if you do talk about it. Rather than saying, “he was inappropriate”, I say be more specific, and say something like “he wrote me flirtatious text messages” or “he kept saying xyz” or “he complained about his wife constantly and kept trying to make me console him.” Etc.
Saying “he was inappropriate” is so vague that it could make it sound like he might have sexually assaulted you, and if he didn’t, just make sure you don’t use such vague language that could imply it. (Of course if he did assault you then by all means tell anyone you want!)
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:11 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Saying “he was inappropriate” is so vague that it could make it sound like he might have sexually assaulted you, and if he didn’t, just make sure you don’t use such vague language that could imply it. (Of course if he did assault you then by all means tell anyone you want!)
posted by nouvelle-personne at 2:11 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
phunniemee: I liked your rubric so much I saved it to a prominent folder. I did a lot of those things as a younger, more foolish (no longer young, but hopefully a little less foolish!) man. The rubric also works quite well across the spectrum of genders, I might add, but yeah, men are particularly guilty of these things at a higher rate than other gender categories. Interesting to consider why, I guess, but not today.
posted by nixxon at 2:03 PM on November 8, 2023
posted by nixxon at 2:03 PM on November 8, 2023
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If not, then I say just cut all ties. If they're a drama filled band, you trying to clear your name or reveal the drummer's behavior will just be more drama, even if you are truthful and honest.
I'm betting others are aware of what was happening and already understand your departure.
Having to explain to somebody in that group who doesn't already understand is just going to make things worse for you if you aren't required to see them again.
posted by AzraelBrown at 2:37 PM on November 6, 2023 [8 favorites]