How *not* to hire movers
October 7, 2023 11:35 PM Subscribe
I had a bad experience recently with cross country movers and I need help figuring out my next steps and what I want / need from the situation.
I recently moved about 2500 miles across the U.S. I had the privilege to be able to hire movers so I didn't have to drive my belongings.
I sought out bids and went with a company recommended by a friend. I also had the company price out the cost of packing my belongings. The estimator works for a local company that is affiliated with one of the large national brands of movers (United / North American / Mayflower / Allied). The estimator visited my 4br home (1500 square feet + garage) in person and provided a quote. He estimated the weight to be 7,500 lbs for a cost of $12k (with packing). I signed a binding contracting - a "guaranteed not to exceed" price.
Reader, the price went up.
First, the packers used more boxes than he estimated, so that price went up by $600, which I signed and approved the day it was packed. I wish that was the only issue. Apparently the weight of the move was closer to 11,500 lbs. This has been proven with weigh tickets, and I believe them to be accurate.
BUT, I was never informed about this until the day before it was to be delivered. Not when it was picked up, nowhere along the road, etc. When the driver called with a delivery date, they told me to call the local office to finalize payment. They can't deliver without full payment. When I called to pay, the price went up to $16k.
Interstate moves are regulated by the US DOT, and they specifically state in their Movers Rights & Responsibilities booklet, "If the mover does not give you a new binding estimate in writing, or agree in writing to convert the binding estimate to a non-binding estimate before your goods are loaded, the original binding estimate is reaffirmed. Under these circumstances, your mover should not charge or collect more than the amount of the original binding estimate at delivery for the quantities and services included in the estimate."
I was never informed of the weight increase or the cost increase, and even better I found out they increased the cost of packing even over what I agreed to on packing day.
I have been talking with the national company, and they kick it back to the local company. The local company keeps kicking it back to the national company. No one is taking responsibility. I'm torn about my next steps. Part of me feels I should let it go because my stuff was indeed the weight they are charging me for. But I've been jerked around so much, and no one is taking responsibility, nor communicating with me whatsoever. I think I've got a recourse based on the DOT text above, but that means arbitration. What would arbitration be like? Can I file a complaint with the DOT?
At this point, it's paid because I needed my stuff delivered. Should I do a chargeback on my credit card? I definitely have recourse for the extra they charged me for packing above what I signed (they charged an additional $568 that I never agreed to). But that's a drop in the bucket next to the $4k that they overcharged me.
I'm just having trouble understanding what's keeping this from underestimating all moves by 50% to get the business, then billing more. So there's an anger factor here as well, but I know my emotions aren't going to help. Do I just badmouth them on Yelp and hope I feel better?
What would you do or what have you done in this position?
I recently moved about 2500 miles across the U.S. I had the privilege to be able to hire movers so I didn't have to drive my belongings.
I sought out bids and went with a company recommended by a friend. I also had the company price out the cost of packing my belongings. The estimator works for a local company that is affiliated with one of the large national brands of movers (United / North American / Mayflower / Allied). The estimator visited my 4br home (1500 square feet + garage) in person and provided a quote. He estimated the weight to be 7,500 lbs for a cost of $12k (with packing). I signed a binding contracting - a "guaranteed not to exceed" price.
Reader, the price went up.
First, the packers used more boxes than he estimated, so that price went up by $600, which I signed and approved the day it was packed. I wish that was the only issue. Apparently the weight of the move was closer to 11,500 lbs. This has been proven with weigh tickets, and I believe them to be accurate.
BUT, I was never informed about this until the day before it was to be delivered. Not when it was picked up, nowhere along the road, etc. When the driver called with a delivery date, they told me to call the local office to finalize payment. They can't deliver without full payment. When I called to pay, the price went up to $16k.
Interstate moves are regulated by the US DOT, and they specifically state in their Movers Rights & Responsibilities booklet, "If the mover does not give you a new binding estimate in writing, or agree in writing to convert the binding estimate to a non-binding estimate before your goods are loaded, the original binding estimate is reaffirmed. Under these circumstances, your mover should not charge or collect more than the amount of the original binding estimate at delivery for the quantities and services included in the estimate."
I was never informed of the weight increase or the cost increase, and even better I found out they increased the cost of packing even over what I agreed to on packing day.
I have been talking with the national company, and they kick it back to the local company. The local company keeps kicking it back to the national company. No one is taking responsibility. I'm torn about my next steps. Part of me feels I should let it go because my stuff was indeed the weight they are charging me for. But I've been jerked around so much, and no one is taking responsibility, nor communicating with me whatsoever. I think I've got a recourse based on the DOT text above, but that means arbitration. What would arbitration be like? Can I file a complaint with the DOT?
At this point, it's paid because I needed my stuff delivered. Should I do a chargeback on my credit card? I definitely have recourse for the extra they charged me for packing above what I signed (they charged an additional $568 that I never agreed to). But that's a drop in the bucket next to the $4k that they overcharged me.
I'm just having trouble understanding what's keeping this from underestimating all moves by 50% to get the business, then billing more. So there's an anger factor here as well, but I know my emotions aren't going to help. Do I just badmouth them on Yelp and hope I feel better?
What would you do or what have you done in this position?
If you can do a chargeback on the $4000 after you get your things, please do that!! And please make sure you file a formal complaint with USDOT. This is 100% a scam. It is NOT legitimate. It's a practice known as "weight bumping."
You don't owe these folks a single moment more of your time, energy, or thought. They should not have signed a binding agreement with you if they wanted to be able to charge you based on the actual weight as opposed to estimated weight. They could have given you weight-based pricing so that you could have compared vendors based on a per-100-lb price. There were and are many different ways for them to handle this issue without trying to swindle you, but they have chosen to swindle you. Do not fall for their rationalization that the estimated weight was too low - if the estimated weight had been just right, they would have invented a different rational-sounding reason to charge you, such as "oh no, the estimate didn't specify the number of oversized items, turns out you have a much larger number of oversized items, therefore you owe us thousands of dollars more," or "oh, of course we honor our agreement but you have to pay the transportation related taxes and interstate fees and tolls, come on, these are real costs, the contract only specifies charges associated with basic labor. See?"
Having worked with interstate movers about 15 years ago, when the laws still weren't as robust as they are now, I have seen every trick in the book pulled - including moving crews who DELIBERATELY ACT DUMB at the time of delivery and insist that you owe them the "deposit" amount noted on the contract (which you have already paid, of course) in cash, right now. You'll patiently explain to them that they're not making sense, you already paid it, it says so right here, but the crew foreman will shake his head and insist that this is how it's always done, and if you refuse to pay what it says on the contract they cannot unload the truck. This is one extortion trick that's happened to me personally. There wasn't even a way for me to take them to small claims court because the movers were out of state.
Bottomline: do not waste your time on these folks. Do what you need to do to get your stuff and then do a chargeback.
posted by MiraK at 6:18 AM on October 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
You don't owe these folks a single moment more of your time, energy, or thought. They should not have signed a binding agreement with you if they wanted to be able to charge you based on the actual weight as opposed to estimated weight. They could have given you weight-based pricing so that you could have compared vendors based on a per-100-lb price. There were and are many different ways for them to handle this issue without trying to swindle you, but they have chosen to swindle you. Do not fall for their rationalization that the estimated weight was too low - if the estimated weight had been just right, they would have invented a different rational-sounding reason to charge you, such as "oh no, the estimate didn't specify the number of oversized items, turns out you have a much larger number of oversized items, therefore you owe us thousands of dollars more," or "oh, of course we honor our agreement but you have to pay the transportation related taxes and interstate fees and tolls, come on, these are real costs, the contract only specifies charges associated with basic labor. See?"
Having worked with interstate movers about 15 years ago, when the laws still weren't as robust as they are now, I have seen every trick in the book pulled - including moving crews who DELIBERATELY ACT DUMB at the time of delivery and insist that you owe them the "deposit" amount noted on the contract (which you have already paid, of course) in cash, right now. You'll patiently explain to them that they're not making sense, you already paid it, it says so right here, but the crew foreman will shake his head and insist that this is how it's always done, and if you refuse to pay what it says on the contract they cannot unload the truck. This is one extortion trick that's happened to me personally. There wasn't even a way for me to take them to small claims court because the movers were out of state.
Bottomline: do not waste your time on these folks. Do what you need to do to get your stuff and then do a chargeback.
posted by MiraK at 6:18 AM on October 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
You can try the chargeback; it worked for a coworker of mine after the truck parked a mile from his house and said they wouldn't finish the drive - or unlock the back of the truck - without more payment.
I'm just having trouble understanding what's keeping this from underestimating all moves by 50% to get the business, then billing more.
There are people here on Metafilter that have told me they were not scammed using a moving company even when it was self-paid (moving paid by a large company with a substantial relocation contract with a mover appears to be mostly hassle-free), but I do not know anyone myself who has had that experience.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:19 AM on October 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm just having trouble understanding what's keeping this from underestimating all moves by 50% to get the business, then billing more.
There are people here on Metafilter that have told me they were not scammed using a moving company even when it was self-paid (moving paid by a large company with a substantial relocation contract with a mover appears to be mostly hassle-free), but I do not know anyone myself who has had that experience.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:19 AM on October 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Classic moving scam. It's weird that they let you use a credit card at all--most of these companies insist on cash or a cash equivalent so you CAN'T do a chargeback. Otherwise this wouldn't work nearly as often as it does.
If they still have your stuff, and you want to get your stuff back, you're probably best off paying whatever they ask for with a credit card and then doing a chargeback on everything (yes, everything) once you have your stuff back.
In theory you could probably get a letter from an attorney threatening them but I wouldn't bet on it being effective. A lot of the moving scam companies constantly shut down and reorganize under new names, so they're close to judgment-proof.
posted by Slinga at 6:55 AM on October 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
If they still have your stuff, and you want to get your stuff back, you're probably best off paying whatever they ask for with a credit card and then doing a chargeback on everything (yes, everything) once you have your stuff back.
In theory you could probably get a letter from an attorney threatening them but I wouldn't bet on it being effective. A lot of the moving scam companies constantly shut down and reorganize under new names, so they're close to judgment-proof.
posted by Slinga at 6:55 AM on October 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are people here on Metafilter that have told me they were not scammed using a moving company even when it was self-paid (moving paid by a large company with a substantial relocation contract with a mover appears to be mostly hassle-free), but I do not know anyone myself who has had that experience.
I'm one of those people, where we've had moves that have been straightforward with no chicanery. But in this case, this sounds like a direct scam where they are violating the terms of the contract that was signed. I agree with all the suggestions above about trying the chargeback, filing complaints, etc. At the end of the day, you have a contract and legally, both parties should be abiding by it. In my world, $4k is enough money to be worth putting in the time to contest it.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:35 AM on October 8, 2023
I'm one of those people, where we've had moves that have been straightforward with no chicanery. But in this case, this sounds like a direct scam where they are violating the terms of the contract that was signed. I agree with all the suggestions above about trying the chargeback, filing complaints, etc. At the end of the day, you have a contract and legally, both parties should be abiding by it. In my world, $4k is enough money to be worth putting in the time to contest it.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:35 AM on October 8, 2023
I'd talk to your state's Attorney General's office.
posted by theora55 at 8:08 AM on October 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 8:08 AM on October 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
They're functionally holding your things hostage after they under-quoted you - on a binding contract! - in order to secure your business. This is fraud. They know that people are waiting for their things and are likely to pay the ransom on their personal belongings because moving is otherwise stressful and people just want to get it over with. If you can manage it, I would not pay them this money and instead inform them that you are seeking legal recourse due to their breach of contract and then do so. Otherwise, the chargeback option is a great one.
A scathing review on all review sites might help your case - I have found it to be effective with a different cross-country move with a significant incident and got us action when nothing else did. Plus, you should also be letting others know that this company does this so they don't use them as well. Be thorough in your review so people can tell it's the real deal and also leave a review on the Better Business Bureau site.
posted by urbanlenny at 9:33 AM on October 8, 2023
A scathing review on all review sites might help your case - I have found it to be effective with a different cross-country move with a significant incident and got us action when nothing else did. Plus, you should also be letting others know that this company does this so they don't use them as well. Be thorough in your review so people can tell it's the real deal and also leave a review on the Better Business Bureau site.
posted by urbanlenny at 9:33 AM on October 8, 2023
I am someone who will often value my time and peace of mind over money, and will let small things go - but for $4k and holding your stuff hostage, I would take action on this one. Do the chargeback, file the complaint.
posted by Stacey at 10:07 AM on October 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 10:07 AM on October 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, once you have all this sorted out, bad-review the shit out of these scammers on google, yelp, facebook, with exact details of their scam.
posted by lalochezia at 5:59 PM on October 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by lalochezia at 5:59 PM on October 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
The FBI has jurisdiction over interstate movers and to be brief, I have been involved in such an investigation that ended up with a successful prosecution. Get your stuff back. Write down everything you know about the companies involved and every person you deal with including names and pictures. Look online to see if you can find other scammed customers. There may already be an ongoing investigation that you can hook up with.
posted by bq at 9:32 AM on October 9, 2023
posted by bq at 9:32 AM on October 9, 2023
Also, once you have all this sorted out, bad-review the shit out of these scammers on google, yelp, facebook, with exact details of their scam.
I had a moving company attempt to withhold my refund until I signed a document saying I wouldn't bad-mouth them. I refused, pointed out that such behavior was illegal under the Consumer Review Fairness Act, and please send me that document so that I can report it to the FTC. They backed down immediately and I never got the doc but I did get the refund very quickly. Given your experience here, I suspect they might attempt the same.
posted by Runes at 7:13 PM on October 9, 2023
I had a moving company attempt to withhold my refund until I signed a document saying I wouldn't bad-mouth them. I refused, pointed out that such behavior was illegal under the Consumer Review Fairness Act, and please send me that document so that I can report it to the FTC. They backed down immediately and I never got the doc but I did get the refund very quickly. Given your experience here, I suspect they might attempt the same.
posted by Runes at 7:13 PM on October 9, 2023
OP here (I had anonymized the post... in case it went to arbitration, I didn't want anything traceable back to me.) Just want to let you know that I did indeed instigate a chargeback through my credit card. About 3 weeks after I reported the fraud, I got a phone call and an email from the local mover's agent telling me they were issuing me a refund! Once that went through properly, I canceled the chargeback with the credit card.
Thanks to everyone, especially MiraK and cocoagirl, who helped me realize I deserved this money back, that it was owed to me, and that it was an amount worth continuing to fight for. I'm so glad the chargeback got their attention, and the matter is resolved!
And yes, I filed complaints with the US DOT, but there's no action associated with that. It's just a note on their record, so to speak.
posted by hydra77 at 12:48 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thanks to everyone, especially MiraK and cocoagirl, who helped me realize I deserved this money back, that it was owed to me, and that it was an amount worth continuing to fight for. I'm so glad the chargeback got their attention, and the matter is resolved!
And yes, I filed complaints with the US DOT, but there's no action associated with that. It's just a note on their record, so to speak.
posted by hydra77 at 12:48 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
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Do a chargeback if you can. Give the cc company a copy of the invoice and contract with the relevant parts highlighted. Tell them the local and national companies are bickering (for x days, weeks) over what should be a very simple process, and that you don't want to wait longer to see how it falls out or until your rights to the chargeback elapse. You want a refund on the card.
I have "left money on the table" to be nice, to not point out to people or companies that they have not met their end of an agreement, or because it felt demoralizing to go through the process of pushing back. Then at one point I had a realization that I was paying people to take money from me that they didn't have a right to. So that shifted my attitude about my 'rights' or what's ok for me to do on my own financial behalf. But the other thing that helped me be more effective in situations where I'm torn between being nice and getting my money back, is to think of it for myself like a minor administrative matter. "Oh that $4,000 with the moving company? Yes, that's an overcharge and I'm just doing the paperwork to rectify that." It's a business, contract, impersonal event. It's the mental equivalent of waiting for the receipt from an ATM, of checking your heating bill, of returning some socks that don't fit. Because usually that's what it is for them, whoever them is. It's a few emails between customer service reps who don't know you, don't care about you, and are just pushing some buttons in the hopes one of them will result in $4000 they don't have a right to.
posted by cocoagirl at 3:50 AM on October 8, 2023 [19 favorites]