Help me be my own project manager / GC for a small project
September 6, 2023 9:11 AM Subscribe
I'm in DC and contractors are quoting me a very high price for what seems like a pretty simple project ($10K). I'm thinking that if I can break it down into steps, I can do the steps one at a time with a handyman and plumber and save a lot of money. Can you check out my process and tell me what I'm missing or haven't considered?
Here's the project: making a new washer/dryer closet. It will be in the master bedroom closet, which shares a wall with a bathroom. It will be upstairs.
These are the steps I'm envisioning:
1) have our trusted plumbing company come and confirm that they can do the plumbing and can connect to whatever's in the bathroom
2) have handyman change up the closet walls (needs to bring front wall with doors forward about 6 inches to have enough depth for the washing machine)
3) handyman fixes floor (apparently moving wall forward will mean some floor is exposed that wasn't before)
4) plumber installs plumbing
5) handyman runs electric line (our panel has empty slots)
6) handyman runs vent (the attic is right above closet, and there is already a vent connection from an old dryer in a different location that this can now replace)
7) handyman fix any holes where wall was cut to run electric.
8) handyman (or me) paint walls
8) install machines (done by bestbuy or whoever we get the machines from)
My skill level is have watched over large renovation project at home before, but with a GC. I caught and troubleshot a lot of mistakes but don't actually know a lot myself, just willing to keep an eye on things to see if everything appears to go well. I've also designed my own kitchen/bathrooms and purchased all materials and it worked out well. I don't have any actual skills like building LOL.
I really don't think this should cost $10K and our budget is tight. We had a washer/dryer closet but the washer broke and for various reasons we cannot use the same closet again. With two toddlers having a working washer/dryer at home is a high priority. So if I can manage things myself and save a few grand that would be great.
My experience so far tells me that having a great handyman and a trustworthy plumber should make this project Not a Big Deal and that I'm overthinking it. Thanks in advance for any insights, including if you think I should just hire a GC so I don't inadvertently miss something critical.
Here's the project: making a new washer/dryer closet. It will be in the master bedroom closet, which shares a wall with a bathroom. It will be upstairs.
These are the steps I'm envisioning:
1) have our trusted plumbing company come and confirm that they can do the plumbing and can connect to whatever's in the bathroom
2) have handyman change up the closet walls (needs to bring front wall with doors forward about 6 inches to have enough depth for the washing machine)
3) handyman fixes floor (apparently moving wall forward will mean some floor is exposed that wasn't before)
4) plumber installs plumbing
5) handyman runs electric line (our panel has empty slots)
6) handyman runs vent (the attic is right above closet, and there is already a vent connection from an old dryer in a different location that this can now replace)
7) handyman fix any holes where wall was cut to run electric.
8) handyman (or me) paint walls
8) install machines (done by bestbuy or whoever we get the machines from)
My skill level is have watched over large renovation project at home before, but with a GC. I caught and troubleshot a lot of mistakes but don't actually know a lot myself, just willing to keep an eye on things to see if everything appears to go well. I've also designed my own kitchen/bathrooms and purchased all materials and it worked out well. I don't have any actual skills like building LOL.
I really don't think this should cost $10K and our budget is tight. We had a washer/dryer closet but the washer broke and for various reasons we cannot use the same closet again. With two toddlers having a working washer/dryer at home is a high priority. So if I can manage things myself and save a few grand that would be great.
My experience so far tells me that having a great handyman and a trustworthy plumber should make this project Not a Big Deal and that I'm overthinking it. Thanks in advance for any insights, including if you think I should just hire a GC so I don't inadvertently miss something critical.
I feel like “change up the closet walls” by itself might be a bigger task than you’re giving it credit for. In my limited experience as a homeowner you don’t really move an existing wall per se, you demolish it and build a new wall in the desired spot. Is there any way you can pick a washer that doesn’t require this, or maybe do something just with the doors to get enough clearance?
posted by staggernation at 9:32 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by staggernation at 9:32 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Step 2 will require demo, sheetrocking, taping and plastering and YMMV with skill levels required from a handyman.
5 and 6 surely require a licensed electrician to not void your homeowners insurance?
posted by DarlingBri at 9:36 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
5 and 6 surely require a licensed electrician to not void your homeowners insurance?
posted by DarlingBri at 9:36 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
When we had our bathroom remodeled, we paid more than we had to to go with a firm that included a project manager for our project. This manager facilitated making sure the right people were on the right timelines, that they talked to each other and exchanged meaningful information, and managed making and modifying any appointments, along with providing *us* a single point of contact, so I didn't have to go chasing after any particular person.
I can't tell you what that's worth to you, but to me it was worth the premium I paid.
I don't know if your contractor is offering this kind of service, but if they are I would certainly think long and hard about what that's worth to you.
posted by kbanas at 9:40 AM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can't tell you what that's worth to you, but to me it was worth the premium I paid.
I don't know if your contractor is offering this kind of service, but if they are I would certainly think long and hard about what that's worth to you.
posted by kbanas at 9:40 AM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
You definitely, definitely want a licensed electrician to run the electric line (at least if you are in the US or Canada, can't speak to how things operate elsewhere).
You will also need a very skilled handyman whose work you trust — "changing up walls" involves demo, framing, trim, sheetrocking, tape & mud, painting — and in this case, framing and hanging doors. All of these are separate trades on their own and it's pretty rare to find a single person who is skilled in all of them (and those rare people are probably booked out for months, if you can find one). If you're OK with it looking kind of shitty then this is less critical.
Running the plumbing may or may not be straightforward — but the fact that you have a trusted plumber who's willing to give you an opinion makes this step easier. Presumably you can re-evaluate the plan if the plumber tells you it will be difficult.
Be prepared for things to go wrong and cost way more than expected — which can happen with or without a GC.
posted by mekily at 10:11 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
You will also need a very skilled handyman whose work you trust — "changing up walls" involves demo, framing, trim, sheetrocking, tape & mud, painting — and in this case, framing and hanging doors. All of these are separate trades on their own and it's pretty rare to find a single person who is skilled in all of them (and those rare people are probably booked out for months, if you can find one). If you're OK with it looking kind of shitty then this is less critical.
Running the plumbing may or may not be straightforward — but the fact that you have a trusted plumber who's willing to give you an opinion makes this step easier. Presumably you can re-evaluate the plan if the plumber tells you it will be difficult.
Be prepared for things to go wrong and cost way more than expected — which can happen with or without a GC.
posted by mekily at 10:11 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Fwiw I think if a GC is charging $10k to do all of that, it sounds like a damn good deal, and I live in a much lower COL area than DC. Add in the headaches of having to deal with overseeing all that to save what, maybe $1k? I’d just as soon go with the GC.
posted by HVACDC_Bag at 10:22 AM on September 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by HVACDC_Bag at 10:22 AM on September 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
Possible issues: government permitting, which may require submission of plans by a licensed professional; approval of the personnel and/or of the plans by a homeowners association or a condo board, if applicable; confirming that all the personnel have appropriate insurance and that you will be protected by their insurance.
posted by JimN2TAW at 10:24 AM on September 6, 2023
posted by JimN2TAW at 10:24 AM on September 6, 2023
Somewhere between steps 1 and 4 (depending on your local laws), you probably need to pull a permit from your municipality. This may require you to either certify that you are doing the work yourself as the homeowner, or to provide the names and license numbers of the people you are contracting it to, the dollar value of the project, and pay a fee. It will vary by jurisdiction what work needs permits and what doesn't, but in my jurisdiction (and, I'd expect, in most of them), adding new plumbing and new electrical (as opposed to a repair or replacement of something existing) requires a permit and inspection(s). If/when you sell, you'll probably be asked to certify if you are aware of any un-permitted plumbing or electrical work on the disclosure form, so it's better to do it right from the start.
And as DarlingBri notes, you probably need a licensed electrician for the electrical, not a handyman. In my jurisdiction, the homeowner may do their own electric in their primary residence if it's a single-family dwelling, but if it's a rental, condo, etc., you need a licensed electrician to sign off. (Some electricians are willing to let a handyman do all the work and then just show up, inspect it and make the final connections, but the electrician still holds all the liability, so unless you are known to the electrician, you probably won't be able to get them to agree to this.)
posted by yuwtze at 10:35 AM on September 6, 2023
And as DarlingBri notes, you probably need a licensed electrician for the electrical, not a handyman. In my jurisdiction, the homeowner may do their own electric in their primary residence if it's a single-family dwelling, but if it's a rental, condo, etc., you need a licensed electrician to sign off. (Some electricians are willing to let a handyman do all the work and then just show up, inspect it and make the final connections, but the electrician still holds all the liability, so unless you are known to the electrician, you probably won't be able to get them to agree to this.)
posted by yuwtze at 10:35 AM on September 6, 2023
I don't think it will be considerably less to do this and shocked the quote is that low in DC. To confirm, I would get a quote from a handyman and an electrician first. DM if you want my handyman who basically will work as a GC in DC (they redid my shower) and an amazing Electrician I've worked with.
posted by sandmanwv at 10:46 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by sandmanwv at 10:46 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
We have an amazing trusted handyman here in LA and there’s no way he’d touch this job for less than $8k; I suspect you’re hoping to find cost savings that may not be available.
posted by samthemander at 10:56 AM on September 6, 2023
posted by samthemander at 10:56 AM on September 6, 2023
My experience so far tells me that having a great handyman and a trustworthy plumber should make this project Not a Big Deal and that I'm overthinking it.
I'm unclear if you have those two resources already. If you have a great handyman and a trustworthy plumber -- who both will show up consistently in the timeframe you need -- you could save a couple thousand maybe. Definitely start by talking to handyman to get a cost idea. (I agree you need to pull a licensed electrician into the mix.) But if you don't already have them, the GC will save enough time -- in terms of both managing the project and the completion date -- that they are likely worth the cost.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 11:00 AM on September 6, 2023
I'm unclear if you have those two resources already. If you have a great handyman and a trustworthy plumber -- who both will show up consistently in the timeframe you need -- you could save a couple thousand maybe. Definitely start by talking to handyman to get a cost idea. (I agree you need to pull a licensed electrician into the mix.) But if you don't already have them, the GC will save enough time -- in terms of both managing the project and the completion date -- that they are likely worth the cost.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 11:00 AM on September 6, 2023
Also an alternative: can you fit the washer/dryer in there if you take the doors off the closet? I suspect the electric and plumbing only would be much less than 10k. you can make the closet nicer later.
posted by sandmanwv at 11:06 AM on September 6, 2023
posted by sandmanwv at 11:06 AM on September 6, 2023
As a former homeowner $10k doesn't sound completely out of pocket. You are talking about a project that touches plumbing, electrical, framing, drywall, and flooring. In most jurisdictions this would require permits.
If you want cost savings, it might be better to find a compact washer/dryer that fits in the existing space, so you only need plumbing, electrical, and finishing work.
Or yeah, remove the clos
posted by muddgirl at 11:10 AM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you want cost savings, it might be better to find a compact washer/dryer that fits in the existing space, so you only need plumbing, electrical, and finishing work.
Or yeah, remove the clos
posted by muddgirl at 11:10 AM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Running electrical, venting, framing and potentially ensuring your plan is structurally sound is a very high expectation for what a handyman can do. Electrical is on par or more important than plumbing in terms of wanting a licensed pro to do it vs a generalist given fire potential.
I do think you can GC this but whether you save $$ will be dependent on what plumbing and electric subs will quote you. Keep in mind my experience is subs quote time and material and handy people often quote time and expect you to get the materials.
posted by openhearted at 11:44 AM on September 6, 2023
I do think you can GC this but whether you save $$ will be dependent on what plumbing and electric subs will quote you. Keep in mind my experience is subs quote time and material and handy people often quote time and expect you to get the materials.
posted by openhearted at 11:44 AM on September 6, 2023
(work in interior design, do a lot of renovation work)
10k does not sound crazy at all, and I think when you add all these people up its going to end up being close to it anyway, and one company running all the subs is what you want to have. Otherwise you are going to end up with a lot of back and forth and visits that dont work cause the trade before missed something.
"5) handyman runs electric line (our panel has empty slots)" if you take away anything from this question, i really hope that its that a licensed electrician must do this. Not a guy who is "good at electric but also does other things."
If this room didnt have a washer/dryer beforehand i would really, really want someone smarter than me saying the floor was sound. Speaking of sound, please take into consideration if you really want to hear the draining/wooshing/vibration in your primary bedroom while it runs. You might want soundproofing.
Also since this will be on a second floor, please look into ways to waterproof the floor- this can be as simple as putting the unit in a pan and having an alarm, or a membrain/ Schluter system
I really dont want you to end up in a situation where you have a massive leak to the floor below/ or god forbid a fire and your insurance company fights you about it because you did this unlicensed/unpermitted. Thats going to easily eat up the (not huge) savings from going this route.
posted by zara at 11:46 AM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
10k does not sound crazy at all, and I think when you add all these people up its going to end up being close to it anyway, and one company running all the subs is what you want to have. Otherwise you are going to end up with a lot of back and forth and visits that dont work cause the trade before missed something.
"5) handyman runs electric line (our panel has empty slots)" if you take away anything from this question, i really hope that its that a licensed electrician must do this. Not a guy who is "good at electric but also does other things."
If this room didnt have a washer/dryer beforehand i would really, really want someone smarter than me saying the floor was sound. Speaking of sound, please take into consideration if you really want to hear the draining/wooshing/vibration in your primary bedroom while it runs. You might want soundproofing.
Also since this will be on a second floor, please look into ways to waterproof the floor- this can be as simple as putting the unit in a pan and having an alarm, or a membrain/ Schluter system
I really dont want you to end up in a situation where you have a massive leak to the floor below/ or god forbid a fire and your insurance company fights you about it because you did this unlicensed/unpermitted. Thats going to easily eat up the (not huge) savings from going this route.
posted by zara at 11:46 AM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
In my jurisdiction this would also require a permit - the permit cost and timeline would cost more than like 5 of the 9 items on that list. A dedicated project manager could probably help you with that cost, since any decent-sized metro will require professional drawings for the permit, not ones you draw up yourself, at least not without lots of revisions and wasted time.
Running your electrical lines would be like a $300-$500 job if the panel is relatively accessible, there is attic above with accessible space above. So IMO you should just hire an electrician. It's not a huge cost.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:06 PM on September 6, 2023
Running your electrical lines would be like a $300-$500 job if the panel is relatively accessible, there is attic above with accessible space above. So IMO you should just hire an electrician. It's not a huge cost.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:06 PM on September 6, 2023
Some out of the box thinking for you:
You may wish to look for smaller, European style appliances that fit in the space you have, rather than doing a bunch of demo/reconstruction to fit jumbo American appliances into that space. That is a shit load of work for six more inches! Surely machines are made that will fit in that closet as it is.
Imagine the savings in renovation costs, even if you pay significantly more for the machines.
Further, a ventless, condenser dryer does not require a heavy amp cable run or a vent, and thus will be cheaper to install. Bonus: uses less electricity. Extra bonus: will not catch on fire if you forget to clean the ductwork.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:39 PM on September 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
You may wish to look for smaller, European style appliances that fit in the space you have, rather than doing a bunch of demo/reconstruction to fit jumbo American appliances into that space. That is a shit load of work for six more inches! Surely machines are made that will fit in that closet as it is.
Imagine the savings in renovation costs, even if you pay significantly more for the machines.
Further, a ventless, condenser dryer does not require a heavy amp cable run or a vent, and thus will be cheaper to install. Bonus: uses less electricity. Extra bonus: will not catch on fire if you forget to clean the ductwork.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:39 PM on September 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think if you price out materials and hourly wages you are going to be pretty close to that $10k. I did not expect the scope of the project and was quite surprised you found that excessive. Electrical and plumbing are not cheap, and they’re ESPECIALLY not cheap when they’re in the same project. Get this wrong and you are looking at a live reenactment of The Money Pit. Pennywise and pound foolish…
posted by Bottlecap at 1:01 PM on September 6, 2023
posted by Bottlecap at 1:01 PM on September 6, 2023
In my jurisdiction this would also require a permit - the permit cost and timeline would cost more than like 5 of the 9 items on that list. A dedicated project manager could probably help you with that cost, since any decent-sized metro will require professional drawings for the permit, not ones you draw up yourself, at least not without lots of revisions and wasted time.
I think The_Vegetables and I might be under the same code regime, but there are some situations where there are "no plan permits" - you have to notify the jurisdiction of what you're doing, but there's not a plan or drawings necessary for it. This doesn't seem like one of those times though. In my area, there are requirements/limitations to how the dryer vent can run, and you'd probably have to at least show a plan documenting that. It would have to be "professional" in the sense of having somebody who knows what they're doing, is familiar with the code requirements, and is making a drawing to scale vs a freehand sketch, but maybe not "licensed professional designer" level.
But, that's potentially another reason to hire a GC - they may have someone in house or that they can contract who knows what kind of drawing they need and the GC can apply for and pull a permit.
posted by LionIndex at 1:02 PM on September 6, 2023
I think The_Vegetables and I might be under the same code regime, but there are some situations where there are "no plan permits" - you have to notify the jurisdiction of what you're doing, but there's not a plan or drawings necessary for it. This doesn't seem like one of those times though. In my area, there are requirements/limitations to how the dryer vent can run, and you'd probably have to at least show a plan documenting that. It would have to be "professional" in the sense of having somebody who knows what they're doing, is familiar with the code requirements, and is making a drawing to scale vs a freehand sketch, but maybe not "licensed professional designer" level.
But, that's potentially another reason to hire a GC - they may have someone in house or that they can contract who knows what kind of drawing they need and the GC can apply for and pull a permit.
posted by LionIndex at 1:02 PM on September 6, 2023
Assuming you plan to do things to code and with whatever permits are required, $10k for a turnkey project sounds like a great deal.
Where I used to live, I had the trifecta of a great plumber, great electrician, and great small-scale contractor who would all take on little projects, all on a first-name, friendly basis. (Like, I could swing by and borrow tools from them.) I'd be surprised if I could have gotten what you describe done for less than $7k, with me pulling the permits and dealing with the inspectors. Maybe a bit less if the wall and floor work were really simple?
Where I lived next, I got my fingers burned with the "really great handyman" someone recommended who turned out not to know how to do things well. Never again.
Now, if you are willing to avoid permits, avoid hiring licensed trades people, etc., then yes, I think you might save enough to notice. But you are taking on more risk that way, and should build that risk into your calculations.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:51 PM on September 6, 2023
Where I used to live, I had the trifecta of a great plumber, great electrician, and great small-scale contractor who would all take on little projects, all on a first-name, friendly basis. (Like, I could swing by and borrow tools from them.) I'd be surprised if I could have gotten what you describe done for less than $7k, with me pulling the permits and dealing with the inspectors. Maybe a bit less if the wall and floor work were really simple?
Where I lived next, I got my fingers burned with the "really great handyman" someone recommended who turned out not to know how to do things well. Never again.
Now, if you are willing to avoid permits, avoid hiring licensed trades people, etc., then yes, I think you might save enough to notice. But you are taking on more risk that way, and should build that risk into your calculations.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:51 PM on September 6, 2023
Good lord, in contrast to everyone else, I think $10k is insane and would totally do (and have done, for this exact project, a laundry closet) every step of this myself except for the electrical and plumbing. I’m genuinely surprised at these answers. An engineer, really? A GC? This is the kind of thing everyone’s dad did when I was a kid. I mean if you have money to burn or just can’t cope with this and the toddlers then of course you should pay to have it done, but if not then this is totally within the capabilities of a reasonably capable homeowner. It’s a closet!!
posted by HotToddy at 4:30 PM on September 6, 2023
posted by HotToddy at 4:30 PM on September 6, 2023
I can't comment on the costs as I live in a totally different jurisdiction but I personally would not want to do this job by myself, unless you already have laundry on the floor. This isn't just creating a closet, what you're paying for is ensuring that the area is safe for heavy vibrating machines that pump a lot of water. The costs of a leak or sagging floor would be far more than 10k. You also run the risk of laundry machine sounds that would disturb your sleep and potentially even having the machines move due to undamped vibrations.
posted by sid at 8:38 PM on September 6, 2023
posted by sid at 8:38 PM on September 6, 2023
This may seem like a lot for a small project, but you need a lot of trades and a lot of different tasks need to be done in the right order. If you were doing the same thing twice as big, the cost would probably not be much more - just a little bit of extra material. It seems high because of the small physical size of the project, but it doesn't seem too bad to me.
However, it's possible you could do most of the work yourself - demolition, a bit of wall framing, plasterboard and plastering/painting are all within the scope of a competent handyperson. It would probably take you quite a bit longer though and that might be an issue for you. If it were me, I would do most of the work myself.
posted by dg at 1:16 AM on September 7, 2023
However, it's possible you could do most of the work yourself - demolition, a bit of wall framing, plasterboard and plastering/painting are all within the scope of a competent handyperson. It would probably take you quite a bit longer though and that might be an issue for you. If it were me, I would do most of the work myself.
posted by dg at 1:16 AM on September 7, 2023
This is the kind of thing everyone’s dad did when I was a kid.
They did this work for sure, poorly. Many of us are having to live in the houses they did work in. Some people could do some of the steps themselves competently, but many can't and the OP didn't mention doing some of the work themselves (beyond painting) as an option, and there is nothing wrong with that.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:02 AM on September 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
They did this work for sure, poorly. Many of us are having to live in the houses they did work in. Some people could do some of the steps themselves competently, but many can't and the OP didn't mention doing some of the work themselves (beyond painting) as an option, and there is nothing wrong with that.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:02 AM on September 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
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It's possible that with the labor of these people + supplies it will approach $10k anyway, and a GC would have liability insurance etc that you do not have.
posted by nkknkk at 9:16 AM on September 6, 2023