Part Time All The Time - how to make that work?
September 5, 2023 10:11 AM Subscribe
This is a bit of a time-sensitive situation, but I was encouraged to post in here. Please help me think through how to negotiate being permanently part-time at a place I've already been working.
So: I was laid off from a great job in July. The following week I immediately had an interview with another position in a similar location for similar pay, and it went well; however, the next day one of the higher-ups restructured to eliminate the position, and give his wife those duties on a part-time basis. But she was going to be out for another month, and my immediate supervisor needed help and talked them into bringing me on part-time just to tide them over, and I could continue to job-hunt.
Well - today my boss asked whether I'd consider STAYING ON with them part-time. I asked the obvious (why not just hire me full time), and apparently the VP is just really stubborn about them not needing someone in full-time. I told him I'd need to do the math, and I've come up with 4 scenarios to present:
1. I work part-time, for 27 hours a week, but at an hourly rate that would match my old FULL TIME salary. (This would be an hourly rate in the 50s.)
2. I work part-time for 27 hours a week, at an hourly rate that would match my old salary, and would also look for additional part-time work elsewhere that would match that. (This would be an hourly rate in the high 30s.)
3. They suck it up and hire me full time and I take on additional duties. I've mentioned those duties.
4. We leave things as-is, with me looking for more work and staying on with them in the meantime.
Scenario 1 would be ABSOLUTELY FUCKING AWESOME. How do I get them to do that?
So: I was laid off from a great job in July. The following week I immediately had an interview with another position in a similar location for similar pay, and it went well; however, the next day one of the higher-ups restructured to eliminate the position, and give his wife those duties on a part-time basis. But she was going to be out for another month, and my immediate supervisor needed help and talked them into bringing me on part-time just to tide them over, and I could continue to job-hunt.
Well - today my boss asked whether I'd consider STAYING ON with them part-time. I asked the obvious (why not just hire me full time), and apparently the VP is just really stubborn about them not needing someone in full-time. I told him I'd need to do the math, and I've come up with 4 scenarios to present:
1. I work part-time, for 27 hours a week, but at an hourly rate that would match my old FULL TIME salary. (This would be an hourly rate in the 50s.)
2. I work part-time for 27 hours a week, at an hourly rate that would match my old salary, and would also look for additional part-time work elsewhere that would match that. (This would be an hourly rate in the high 30s.)
3. They suck it up and hire me full time and I take on additional duties. I've mentioned those duties.
4. We leave things as-is, with me looking for more work and staying on with them in the meantime.
Scenario 1 would be ABSOLUTELY FUCKING AWESOME. How do I get them to do that?
The simple math is usually that part-time work does not come with benefits. Do you need benefits? Because if you do, you need to add those into the numbers, too. 50 might end up being low.
27 hours a week is shitty for part-time - it's too many to get most other part-time jobs and stay at a reasonable (i.e. 40 or under) number of hours. You might get lucky and find a 10-15 hour a week job, so scenario 2 is *possible*, but it might be pretty unlikely.
There's not much of an argument for paying someone for full time but only having them work part time. If you present that (and I'm with heatherlogan, you should), don't frame it as "this is the salary I was making full time", frame it as "this is the salary I would need to stay long-term." Just hand your manager that and say you're willing to stay for the moment, but you ultimately need a job that has a livable salary and benefits and part-time work for less than that is not sustainable for you.
(This is unlikely to go the way you want it, I'm super sorry.)
posted by restless_nomad at 10:21 AM on September 5, 2023 [17 favorites]
27 hours a week is shitty for part-time - it's too many to get most other part-time jobs and stay at a reasonable (i.e. 40 or under) number of hours. You might get lucky and find a 10-15 hour a week job, so scenario 2 is *possible*, but it might be pretty unlikely.
There's not much of an argument for paying someone for full time but only having them work part time. If you present that (and I'm with heatherlogan, you should), don't frame it as "this is the salary I was making full time", frame it as "this is the salary I would need to stay long-term." Just hand your manager that and say you're willing to stay for the moment, but you ultimately need a job that has a livable salary and benefits and part-time work for less than that is not sustainable for you.
(This is unlikely to go the way you want it, I'm super sorry.)
posted by restless_nomad at 10:21 AM on September 5, 2023 [17 favorites]
There are big savings for them if they don't pay full-time benefits. Do you get proportional sick & vaca time? Health insurance? Life & dental ins? I'd ask for premium wages between where you are now and your old salary.
posted by theora55 at 10:48 AM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 10:48 AM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sounds like the VPs spouse realized that the workload was more akin to a full time work load. I agree with restless_nomad's line about what you would need to work part-time there. I would phrase it similarly. If I did not need or want the benefits, I would say, "Sure, I would love to stay on. Even part time. I would need an hourly rate of $57 (or whatever the number is). I am willing to forgo the benefits/health insurance. We would have to agree on PTO too, but I am sure we can come to an agreement on that."
I also would not mention option 2. You can always look for additional work. You don't need their permission to do that. If you said that, it would be a negative to them not a positive.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:48 AM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I also would not mention option 2. You can always look for additional work. You don't need their permission to do that. If you said that, it would be a negative to them not a positive.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:48 AM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Offer 1, 3, or 4. Shoot your shot, do not shoot yourself in the foot.
It's probably going to end up being 4, but you never know.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:06 AM on September 5, 2023
It's probably going to end up being 4, but you never know.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:06 AM on September 5, 2023
We leave things as-is, with me looking for more work and staying on with them in the meantime
This one is ambiguous about whether "more work" means more part-time work as a supplement, or "an actual full-time job, at which point you'll lose me". If it's the first one, they don't really have any incentive not to go with that, right?
posted by trig at 11:26 AM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
This one is ambiguous about whether "more work" means more part-time work as a supplement, or "an actual full-time job, at which point you'll lose me". If it's the first one, they don't really have any incentive not to go with that, right?
posted by trig at 11:26 AM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Oh, option 4 would be "an actual full-time job" being the other work I'm looking for, at which case I'm outta here.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:33 AM on September 5, 2023
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:33 AM on September 5, 2023
Be sure you know where you'll get health insurance and factor in what that will cost.
posted by fritley at 11:38 AM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by fritley at 11:38 AM on September 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think the only two you mention to them are 1 and 4. 2 and 3 are your back ups and get you zero negotiating points. The only benefit to hiring you part-time rather than FT is benefits and if they are willing to pay you the hourly rate you are requesting, they should be ok with you doing additional freelancing on the side.
A possible carrot for getting the full time work is that you don't need one of the benefits. For example, I'm on my husband's employers' health plan so I don't *need* a plan of my own technically. I was able to get a stipend back from my prior employer because they didn't have to pay out this money for me.
Maybe you offer a certain number of days leave without pay to get to full time. Full time seems the best option for you but you need to make them see that it is also a good idea for them as well.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 11:39 AM on September 5, 2023
A possible carrot for getting the full time work is that you don't need one of the benefits. For example, I'm on my husband's employers' health plan so I don't *need* a plan of my own technically. I was able to get a stipend back from my prior employer because they didn't have to pay out this money for me.
Maybe you offer a certain number of days leave without pay to get to full time. Full time seems the best option for you but you need to make them see that it is also a good idea for them as well.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 11:39 AM on September 5, 2023
Get paid what you're worth. You know what this job entails and how much you got paid for doing it. Ask for that and for pro-rated vacation and sick time.
Unless you really want to stay with this company full-time and long term, I'd just stick with getting the best part time deal you can so you have plenty of thime to job search.
posted by brookeb at 12:11 PM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Unless you really want to stay with this company full-time and long term, I'd just stick with getting the best part time deal you can so you have plenty of thime to job search.
posted by brookeb at 12:11 PM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Depending on your situation, it may be important to note that working 30 hours a week qualifies you for health care as a full-time employee under the ACA. So, 27 hours sounds like the worst case - not enough to cover your living expenses or qualify for benefits (depending on the benefit and corporate policy but I'm guess it's not) but also too much to mesh with another PT job.
If you like the workplace, i would opt for #3.
posted by metahawk at 12:48 PM on September 5, 2023
If you like the workplace, i would opt for #3.
posted by metahawk at 12:48 PM on September 5, 2023
1) "27 hours/week" = your old f/t position, sans lunch and regular benefits.
2) If you're responsible for your own insurance/benefits, you need to be paid more. (If you're eligible for any of the f/t employee benefits in a new, permanent p/t position, take that into consideration.)
3) Depending on the particular job, it might help to reframe this as contracting/consulting for your previous employer since they eliminated your f/t salaried position.
4) Don't be too thankful? Previous great job, great immediate boss, but this *reads* as disrespectful as hell, across several axes: restructuring and elimination, then VP's wife ended up in the mix, and that VP's "really stubborn" (embarrassed) now.
5) Don't undervalue your work. 15-20 hours at an appropriate no-benefits rate is still a huge bargain for them, and lets you look for another position (in addition to this p/t gig, or as a full-time replacement for it) with energy and focus.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:51 PM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
2) If you're responsible for your own insurance/benefits, you need to be paid more. (If you're eligible for any of the f/t employee benefits in a new, permanent p/t position, take that into consideration.)
3) Depending on the particular job, it might help to reframe this as contracting/consulting for your previous employer since they eliminated your f/t salaried position.
4) Don't be too thankful? Previous great job, great immediate boss, but this *reads* as disrespectful as hell, across several axes: restructuring and elimination, then VP's wife ended up in the mix, and that VP's "really stubborn" (embarrassed) now.
5) Don't undervalue your work. 15-20 hours at an appropriate no-benefits rate is still a huge bargain for them, and lets you look for another position (in addition to this p/t gig, or as a full-time replacement for it) with energy and focus.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:51 PM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you offer option 2, they'll take it - it's the best deal for them and they don't care if you have other work. So definitely don't do that.
I think what you want to do is present either #1 or #3, with beneficial arguments your boss can make back to the decider. So are you saving them money/time/hassle? What A+ skills are you bringing to the table that would be hard to replace? Are they a kind of esoteric business and the fact that you've ramped up already is huge? Is it that you get along with everyone?
Think of it like handing your boss ammunition for the next round of negotiation. If you haven't shared how deep a background (or how unique a background) you have, make that crystal clear.
You could also remind your boss of the history - that the organization needed a full-time person originally and that's what you were hired for and it would be so awesome to do that and maybe the VP's wife could contribute even more, so super awesome.
In your situation I would definitely be continuing to look for a job that met my needs.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:02 PM on September 5, 2023
I think what you want to do is present either #1 or #3, with beneficial arguments your boss can make back to the decider. So are you saving them money/time/hassle? What A+ skills are you bringing to the table that would be hard to replace? Are they a kind of esoteric business and the fact that you've ramped up already is huge? Is it that you get along with everyone?
Think of it like handing your boss ammunition for the next round of negotiation. If you haven't shared how deep a background (or how unique a background) you have, make that crystal clear.
You could also remind your boss of the history - that the organization needed a full-time person originally and that's what you were hired for and it would be so awesome to do that and maybe the VP's wife could contribute even more, so super awesome.
In your situation I would definitely be continuing to look for a job that met my needs.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:02 PM on September 5, 2023
Unless you have other insurance, you really should start your offer on one in the $60 an hour range. Healthcare is fucking expensive.
posted by Jon_Evil at 6:46 PM on September 5, 2023
posted by Jon_Evil at 6:46 PM on September 5, 2023
Figure out how much it would cost for you to afford health and dental and factor that in to your ask if they aren't willing to promise enough hours to provide you with benefits.
posted by canine epigram at 2:00 AM on September 6, 2023
posted by canine epigram at 2:00 AM on September 6, 2023
Response by poster: Y'all should be chuffed to hear that I also spoke with a) a high school friend who's in HR now, b) the head of HR at my old job, and c) my job coach about this, and they all agreed with you in many ways.
(And actually a point of order: the job I am at NOW has always been part time, they only INTERVIEWED me for something that was GOING to be full time but then 12 hours after that interview the VP of the company decided to eliminate the position and have his wife do the immediate work; the guy who interviewed me pushed back and asked if I could at least help until VP's wife came out of maternity leave.)
So I'm going to be planning things this way:
1. Start asking for full time at a salary rate (one that improves upon the salary I lost in July, when I got laid off and had to start looking for a job in the first place). And benefits. Point out I could do more than the narrow lane they've kept me in.
2. If that doesn't fly - okay, how about no benefits, but a stipend to offset the health insurance.
3. If that doesn't fly - okay, if you want me part time, it'll be $60 an hour.
4. If they try to talk me down on the rate - okay, I'll either need a stipend for benefits, or more hours to cope. (You only want me for $45 an hour? I'll need to come in 4 days a week.)
5. And if that doesn't fly....okay, then I guess this won't work, let's just make me open-ended and I"ll keep looking for other work like things are now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:34 AM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
(And actually a point of order: the job I am at NOW has always been part time, they only INTERVIEWED me for something that was GOING to be full time but then 12 hours after that interview the VP of the company decided to eliminate the position and have his wife do the immediate work; the guy who interviewed me pushed back and asked if I could at least help until VP's wife came out of maternity leave.)
So I'm going to be planning things this way:
1. Start asking for full time at a salary rate (one that improves upon the salary I lost in July, when I got laid off and had to start looking for a job in the first place). And benefits. Point out I could do more than the narrow lane they've kept me in.
2. If that doesn't fly - okay, how about no benefits, but a stipend to offset the health insurance.
3. If that doesn't fly - okay, if you want me part time, it'll be $60 an hour.
4. If they try to talk me down on the rate - okay, I'll either need a stipend for benefits, or more hours to cope. (You only want me for $45 an hour? I'll need to come in 4 days a week.)
5. And if that doesn't fly....okay, then I guess this won't work, let's just make me open-ended and I"ll keep looking for other work like things are now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:34 AM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Just an update - I haven't had the chance to chat with my boss about this yet, there were too many people about yesterday and he's a no-show today.
I may actually wait for HIM to come to ME to follow up, even. I'm holding a number of cards I think.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:34 AM on September 7, 2023
I may actually wait for HIM to come to ME to follow up, even. I'm holding a number of cards I think.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:34 AM on September 7, 2023
You definitely are holding some cards. If you decide to wait out your boss, think out how time is or is not on your side. I know you want to keep what you have (or better it) while you at least look for something better, but often waiting and as time passes you lose leverage. I think you want them to have some urgency in negotiating a package that meets your needs. As time goes on, they may see you willing to work at the status quo rate. Even if you are, you do not want them to think that.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:17 AM on September 8, 2023
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:17 AM on September 8, 2023
Response by poster: Update -
There are rumors of An Offer brewing, and: it would be for a full time position.
BUT.
This happened because I had a lengthy conversation someone there - the VP's wife, who is coming in to take on the bookkeeping duties. She's been gunning to get an office manager in there for a while, and I think she was building a case. At some point, as we were discussing things, she asked what my salary needs would be; I said that "I was making x at my old place; if I had that AND health insurance, I'd be happy as a clam."
The rumor has it that they would offer me health insurance, BUT that they would have to offset that quoted salary to do so. This is an extremely small business, so benefits are pretty scarce. I did some back-of-the-envelope calculation thanks to an online paycheck "gross to net" take-home calculator - and based on what I am randomly guessing the health coverage impact would be, that would be a dip in my take-home, but a manageable one; but still it would be a dip and I could use that for SOME tiny bit of leverage I think.
Again, this IS just a rumor. And I don't know what the ultimate offer would be; there would at least be time for me to look pensive when I get the offer and say "hmm, let me go home and calculate the take-home pay and how that would affect my personal budget". I've also considered negotiating with asking them to offset a couple small professional development courses I'm looking at as well - ones that would benefit them (I'm looking into becoming a notary, and I could say "Hey, if you offset that expense, it would only be a couple hundred bucks, and then you wouldn't have to send someone running five blocks away to the UPS store whenever we need something notarized becuase I'd be sitting right there").
Basically I think they have been nudged into them wanting me on full time, they just need to figure out how to afford me now. And - at present, there are no other offers looming; I've only ever gotten to the "first round of interviews, and then they move on with other people and leave me behind" stage anywhere else, so this is the strongest possibility at the moment.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:01 AM on September 8, 2023
There are rumors of An Offer brewing, and: it would be for a full time position.
BUT.
This happened because I had a lengthy conversation someone there - the VP's wife, who is coming in to take on the bookkeeping duties. She's been gunning to get an office manager in there for a while, and I think she was building a case. At some point, as we were discussing things, she asked what my salary needs would be; I said that "I was making x at my old place; if I had that AND health insurance, I'd be happy as a clam."
The rumor has it that they would offer me health insurance, BUT that they would have to offset that quoted salary to do so. This is an extremely small business, so benefits are pretty scarce. I did some back-of-the-envelope calculation thanks to an online paycheck "gross to net" take-home calculator - and based on what I am randomly guessing the health coverage impact would be, that would be a dip in my take-home, but a manageable one; but still it would be a dip and I could use that for SOME tiny bit of leverage I think.
Again, this IS just a rumor. And I don't know what the ultimate offer would be; there would at least be time for me to look pensive when I get the offer and say "hmm, let me go home and calculate the take-home pay and how that would affect my personal budget". I've also considered negotiating with asking them to offset a couple small professional development courses I'm looking at as well - ones that would benefit them (I'm looking into becoming a notary, and I could say "Hey, if you offset that expense, it would only be a couple hundred bucks, and then you wouldn't have to send someone running five blocks away to the UPS store whenever we need something notarized becuase I'd be sitting right there").
Basically I think they have been nudged into them wanting me on full time, they just need to figure out how to afford me now. And - at present, there are no other offers looming; I've only ever gotten to the "first round of interviews, and then they move on with other people and leave me behind" stage anywhere else, so this is the strongest possibility at the moment.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:01 AM on September 8, 2023
Great progress, and a clear ally in VP's wife! (Spouse wanting her to take on more office tasks when she's out for at least a month, meanwhile she's been pushing for a f/t office manager -- like, wtf, even.)
Re: additional calculations. Have you run through the state health plan marketplace, noting the different levels of insurance open to you (benefits, deductibles, prescriptions & copays, network range, what you'd pay to keep seeing your usual doctors, etc.)? If you did pay for your own, what would your acceptable coverage minimums be? What would be your ideal?
If few benefits are available at this small organization, it would hurt you to negotiate for job coverage and sacrifice salary if the employee (not executive) plan is a &%$* limited network, high-deductible HMO that doesn't meet your existing (much less future) needs.
Also -- a couple of hundred bucks is like office petty cash; talk to them about more expensive courses/certifications/degrees. Later, if you wanted, you could put in an expense report with receipts for the notary stuff (class/license/supplies) against whatever they'd allocated for professional development in your agreement.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:04 PM on September 8, 2023
Re: additional calculations. Have you run through the state health plan marketplace, noting the different levels of insurance open to you (benefits, deductibles, prescriptions & copays, network range, what you'd pay to keep seeing your usual doctors, etc.)? If you did pay for your own, what would your acceptable coverage minimums be? What would be your ideal?
If few benefits are available at this small organization, it would hurt you to negotiate for job coverage and sacrifice salary if the employee (not executive) plan is a &%$* limited network, high-deductible HMO that doesn't meet your existing (much less future) needs.
Also -- a couple of hundred bucks is like office petty cash; talk to them about more expensive courses/certifications/degrees. Later, if you wanted, you could put in an expense report with receipts for the notary stuff (class/license/supplies) against whatever they'd allocated for professional development in your agreement.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:04 PM on September 8, 2023
« Older Typical lawsuits for "easy" cash - just asking... | Best cellphone app that gives you a different cell... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by heatherlogan at 10:17 AM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]