Languages and isolation at international school
September 5, 2023 12:34 AM Subscribe
This year my oldest child (early teens) is feeling left out at school.
They speak English as a native language + the local language here.
However, this year they are the only English native speaker in their grade.
All the others speak English as a second language + a third language (all share this one), and are not fluent in the local language.
So they all default to the third one and my child is excluded.
What advice can I give my child, help should I request from teachers, or other stuff I can do to help? Any similar experiences you can share?
Response by poster: I mean, learning Third Language IS possible, but on top of their school load and mastering the local language too, it doesn't seem super realistic.
What's actually meant to happen is the other internationals learn English but they just get enough to scrape by.
I am absolutely unskilled in Third Language. It's not an official language here and I have no real chance to learn it.
posted by KMH at 1:11 AM on September 5, 2023
What's actually meant to happen is the other internationals learn English but they just get enough to scrape by.
I am absolutely unskilled in Third Language. It's not an official language here and I have no real chance to learn it.
posted by KMH at 1:11 AM on September 5, 2023
Sure, everyone will eventually pick up some English, but in the meantime they’ll default to whatever is easiest in the playground.
Getting the basics of Third Language could be a higher priority for your kid than mastering the local language, if no-one that they spend time with is speaking it.
Maybe it will be fun for you both to learn together?
posted by Puppy McSock at 1:23 AM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Getting the basics of Third Language could be a higher priority for your kid than mastering the local language, if no-one that they spend time with is speaking it.
Maybe it will be fun for you both to learn together?
posted by Puppy McSock at 1:23 AM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
What's actually meant to happen is
Doesn't mean it happens though or at least not on a timetable that is helpful to your child at this point. What would help them is to get basics in this third language, so I'd focus on that. They don't need to learn to read/write this third language, they need to be able to have basic conversations with their peers. Your child trying to speak third language may also encourage some of the said peers to try more English...
In addition, are there any sports, activities or neighbours where your kid can get a community beyond school. Perhaps there is less of a language barrier elsewhere? If there is a language barrier, the vocabulary will be related to the sport or specific activity and may be relatively quick to pick up as a result.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:58 AM on September 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Doesn't mean it happens though or at least not on a timetable that is helpful to your child at this point. What would help them is to get basics in this third language, so I'd focus on that. They don't need to learn to read/write this third language, they need to be able to have basic conversations with their peers. Your child trying to speak third language may also encourage some of the said peers to try more English...
In addition, are there any sports, activities or neighbours where your kid can get a community beyond school. Perhaps there is less of a language barrier elsewhere? If there is a language barrier, the vocabulary will be related to the sport or specific activity and may be relatively quick to pick up as a result.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:58 AM on September 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, learning Third Language IS possible, but on top of their school load and mastering the local language too, it doesn't seem super realistic.
Are you envisioning them sitting and studying the 3rd language? Because I think the usual way - especially for kids - is to just force yourself to interact with others in that language, haltingly at first and then more and more smoothly. That's basically the immersion method. It can be hard on the ego at that age, but it's often the quickest way to learn by far. If kids at school aren't interested in hanging out with your kid in the first place because of the language barrier, I agree with the advice to look for out-of-school activities in that language, whether with kids their age or with others. And at home watch movies or TV in that language, learn at least a little yourself - bring it into your lives.
Alternatively, if that truly doesn't work for your kid, are there no schools where kids speak the local language? Is this some prestigious international school, where local schools are considered less good but might in practice be a better option?
If not, and if the plan is for your kid to keep going to this school for the next few years, then I think not learning the 3rd language is not really an option if having a full social life is a goal.
help should I request from teachers
If all the kids in this school take EFL classes, and if your kid has to sit through these too, there might be a better use for their time - studying 3rd Language, doing some language-exchange-type tutoring with other kids where yours helps them with English and gets help from them, etc.
Language exchange can be a way to meet kids outside of school too. A lot of parents might be looking for a native English speaker for their kids (or themselves) to practice with. If your kid is embarrassed to work with others his age, both younger kids and adults might be an easier fit.
Finally, there's the classic non-language related advice for when you're feeling left out: look for other kids who are loners for whatever reason, and see if you can get to know them.
posted by trig at 3:35 AM on September 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Are you envisioning them sitting and studying the 3rd language? Because I think the usual way - especially for kids - is to just force yourself to interact with others in that language, haltingly at first and then more and more smoothly. That's basically the immersion method. It can be hard on the ego at that age, but it's often the quickest way to learn by far. If kids at school aren't interested in hanging out with your kid in the first place because of the language barrier, I agree with the advice to look for out-of-school activities in that language, whether with kids their age or with others. And at home watch movies or TV in that language, learn at least a little yourself - bring it into your lives.
Alternatively, if that truly doesn't work for your kid, are there no schools where kids speak the local language? Is this some prestigious international school, where local schools are considered less good but might in practice be a better option?
If not, and if the plan is for your kid to keep going to this school for the next few years, then I think not learning the 3rd language is not really an option if having a full social life is a goal.
help should I request from teachers
If all the kids in this school take EFL classes, and if your kid has to sit through these too, there might be a better use for their time - studying 3rd Language, doing some language-exchange-type tutoring with other kids where yours helps them with English and gets help from them, etc.
Language exchange can be a way to meet kids outside of school too. A lot of parents might be looking for a native English speaker for their kids (or themselves) to practice with. If your kid is embarrassed to work with others his age, both younger kids and adults might be an easier fit.
Finally, there's the classic non-language related advice for when you're feeling left out: look for other kids who are loners for whatever reason, and see if you can get to know them.
posted by trig at 3:35 AM on September 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I used to work at an international school, admin in the head's office though, not teaching. But i had daily interaction with the children and was very familiar with the structure and teaching approach.
What you describe sounds very familiar! Although also a Bit different because at that school the playground/social language tended to be German. And it is sound awful and lonely to be excluded.
My first thought is, speak to your child's class teacher. If they are not yet aware of the dynamic (however i bet they are), make sure they know. On parallel speak to the school councillor (my understanding is all international schools have them). If neither of those are willing to act, get an appointment with the head. Don't hestitate, i am quite sure people See the head for less all the time (i used to handle the head's appointments).
At that particular school i worked, English was the language of instruction, with (separated) ESL classes for non native speakers of English as part of the curriculum, in addition to German (German as it is the local language) lessons on the curriculum for students who had achieved a certain level in English, and added to that, mother tongue lessons for those whose mother tongue was neither English nor German. At that particular school mother tongue lessons were not graded, and took place after school, basically extracurricular, they were an after school activity, offered one hour per week similar to tennis, soccer or knitting etc.
I wonder if (provided these exist) you could ask if your child may attend mother tongue classes? Not only would they be exposed to the third language, but also share in the class? Alternatively is there an extracurricular activity that could fit the bill?
Another tack might getting to know people in the PTA, where i worked this was a very positive group of mothers, always willing to listen. The ran a weekly coffee drop in, in the cafeteria, and parents whose schedule allowed would drop in and be able to informally chat with a PTA rep. If this is not an option, contact them - the ones i knew were lovely.
International schools are strange beasts, not really like other schools, as i am sure you know, and not always easy to navigate.
From my observation (i worked there for eight years), it is sometimes very hard for families who may not be in the country by choice but because one or both parents were deployed there. And whilst int. Schools are meant to assist those families it can still be hard.
posted by 15L06 at 4:23 AM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
What you describe sounds very familiar! Although also a Bit different because at that school the playground/social language tended to be German. And it is sound awful and lonely to be excluded.
My first thought is, speak to your child's class teacher. If they are not yet aware of the dynamic (however i bet they are), make sure they know. On parallel speak to the school councillor (my understanding is all international schools have them). If neither of those are willing to act, get an appointment with the head. Don't hestitate, i am quite sure people See the head for less all the time (i used to handle the head's appointments).
At that particular school i worked, English was the language of instruction, with (separated) ESL classes for non native speakers of English as part of the curriculum, in addition to German (German as it is the local language) lessons on the curriculum for students who had achieved a certain level in English, and added to that, mother tongue lessons for those whose mother tongue was neither English nor German. At that particular school mother tongue lessons were not graded, and took place after school, basically extracurricular, they were an after school activity, offered one hour per week similar to tennis, soccer or knitting etc.
I wonder if (provided these exist) you could ask if your child may attend mother tongue classes? Not only would they be exposed to the third language, but also share in the class? Alternatively is there an extracurricular activity that could fit the bill?
Another tack might getting to know people in the PTA, where i worked this was a very positive group of mothers, always willing to listen. The ran a weekly coffee drop in, in the cafeteria, and parents whose schedule allowed would drop in and be able to informally chat with a PTA rep. If this is not an option, contact them - the ones i knew were lovely.
International schools are strange beasts, not really like other schools, as i am sure you know, and not always easy to navigate.
From my observation (i worked there for eight years), it is sometimes very hard for families who may not be in the country by choice but because one or both parents were deployed there. And whilst int. Schools are meant to assist those families it can still be hard.
posted by 15L06 at 4:23 AM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Jesus Christ.
I'm not clear -- is this a long-term problem or a short term problem? Like is this a problem in this classroom, which will resolve next year when there is likely to be more of a language mix, or is this a problem with the school and it will likely always break down this way?
Because "just learn 3rd Language!" is not useful advice for a short term situation for a 13 year old. It's not primary school where the 7 year olds will be forgiving and kind and helpful as someone learns and makes mistakes and struggles. If this is a long-term investment in a language they are going to need socially through the rest of their school years social development, that's different.
Can you help nurture one-on-one social time after school or on weekends where your kid does things with another kid from school, so that kid basically has to speak English? Can you find English language activities or clubs outside of school?
Basically it sounds like you kid may need to form other social connections outside of school to get through the year.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:33 AM on September 5, 2023 [13 favorites]
I'm not clear -- is this a long-term problem or a short term problem? Like is this a problem in this classroom, which will resolve next year when there is likely to be more of a language mix, or is this a problem with the school and it will likely always break down this way?
Because "just learn 3rd Language!" is not useful advice for a short term situation for a 13 year old. It's not primary school where the 7 year olds will be forgiving and kind and helpful as someone learns and makes mistakes and struggles. If this is a long-term investment in a language they are going to need socially through the rest of their school years social development, that's different.
Can you help nurture one-on-one social time after school or on weekends where your kid does things with another kid from school, so that kid basically has to speak English? Can you find English language activities or clubs outside of school?
Basically it sounds like you kid may need to form other social connections outside of school to get through the year.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:33 AM on September 5, 2023 [13 favorites]
Best answer: My personal experience: I'm an adult at an immersive language school, where we are all crap at the local language, English is spoken by most, and 9/10 people have a third language. The solution, heavily enforced by teachers is to insist on the French at school, during class and interactions — which they police if necessary.
It works really well, because yup, we have people who shockingly /s don't speak English and would feel excluded. So my suggestion is speak to the teachers and ask for their help in getting everyone onboard, at least during school hours.
posted by socky_puppy at 5:43 AM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
It works really well, because yup, we have people who shockingly /s don't speak English and would feel excluded. So my suggestion is speak to the teachers and ask for their help in getting everyone onboard, at least during school hours.
posted by socky_puppy at 5:43 AM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: (I'm also wondering if the influx of children & the third language is problematic because of geopolitical issues...? If so, I'm very sorry — it's extremely fraught and complicated in that case. It's something I've seen in my own class with both refugees and wealthy evacuees.)
posted by socky_puppy at 5:45 AM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by socky_puppy at 5:45 AM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
So, your kid needs help finding social interaction opportunities. I think you should definitely see what you can find outside of school either in English or in local language, something structured is often recommended like sports.
If they were younger, then encouraging them to learn a few words in third language and getting playground fluent in that might be one way to go, but early teens is probably too old for that to work organically and I suspect they need an 'in' somewhere with someone. I think I would ask the school to help but perhaps take some suggestions like asking whether they could set up some adult-led clubs/activities where the language used is English or local language. You might also want to investigate whether there's anyone in the grade above/below who is a native English speaker and if so whether the school can encourage them to include your kid.
If this is going to be a long-term problem, you may want to investigate other options for school.
posted by plonkee at 5:46 AM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
If they were younger, then encouraging them to learn a few words in third language and getting playground fluent in that might be one way to go, but early teens is probably too old for that to work organically and I suspect they need an 'in' somewhere with someone. I think I would ask the school to help but perhaps take some suggestions like asking whether they could set up some adult-led clubs/activities where the language used is English or local language. You might also want to investigate whether there's anyone in the grade above/below who is a native English speaker and if so whether the school can encourage them to include your kid.
If this is going to be a long-term problem, you may want to investigate other options for school.
posted by plonkee at 5:46 AM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
At 14 I was the kid in a French/English camp in a tent of Spanish kids one summer. I did pick up some Spanish and that did go a long way. It was hard at the time. My advice to your kid is:
1. Don’t assume the conversation is about you (hard at 13!!!) just because you don’t understand it.
2. Keep trying in the best option language - if your kid starts the conversation it may stay in that language. As the year progresses that may help. If your kid tries in class the teacher may reinforce it.
3. Look for other kids and opportunities.
4. Sure, try the third language
For you I recommend looking into alternative friend groups outside of school and lots of support.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:54 AM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
1. Don’t assume the conversation is about you (hard at 13!!!) just because you don’t understand it.
2. Keep trying in the best option language - if your kid starts the conversation it may stay in that language. As the year progresses that may help. If your kid tries in class the teacher may reinforce it.
3. Look for other kids and opportunities.
4. Sure, try the third language
For you I recommend looking into alternative friend groups outside of school and lots of support.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:54 AM on September 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
What is the language of instruction? When you say "What's actually meant to happen is the other internationals learn English but they just get enough to scrape by" do you mean that instruction is in English, but most students only learn just enough to pass their classes?
If so, I think you can bring it up to the teachers - they ultimately can't stop kids from speaking in their preferred language, but they can encourage kids to use school as a place to practice English (lots of language pedagogy backs up the value of this). But otherwise, I agree with those saying you might want to look into different school options and/or other options for socialization.
posted by coffeecat at 6:55 AM on September 5, 2023
If so, I think you can bring it up to the teachers - they ultimately can't stop kids from speaking in their preferred language, but they can encourage kids to use school as a place to practice English (lots of language pedagogy backs up the value of this). But otherwise, I agree with those saying you might want to look into different school options and/or other options for socialization.
posted by coffeecat at 6:55 AM on September 5, 2023
I'm an introvert that changed schools a few times across language borders.
Advice to the child is to focus on make friends one at a time, and not try to engage with entire groups.
Stuff you can do to help is to support your child by arranging outings and making friends with other parents. Socialize outside of school with both families. Create opportunities for them to ask another kid along to a fun outing.
Also make the most of clubs, sports, expat social groups, extended family. Being able to talk about "my friend X or my cousin Y" helps in making friend Z.
posted by dum spiro spero at 6:58 AM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Advice to the child is to focus on make friends one at a time, and not try to engage with entire groups.
Stuff you can do to help is to support your child by arranging outings and making friends with other parents. Socialize outside of school with both families. Create opportunities for them to ask another kid along to a fun outing.
Also make the most of clubs, sports, expat social groups, extended family. Being able to talk about "my friend X or my cousin Y" helps in making friend Z.
posted by dum spiro spero at 6:58 AM on September 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
The way I made it work was with a tutor.
I grew up as just a Mandarin speaker, until I emigrated to... Hong Kong at about 10, and spent one month in a English/Cantonese school. That was basically the first F I've gotten in my life. Then I moved to... South America, and was enrolled in a school at age of about 11 where Spanish is the dominant language, with secondary English. There is basically three other Chinese speakers in this school... me, my younger brother, and an older kid (i.e. none share any of my classes). My parents hired a tutor that go me through the rough spots, but it was pretty rough for a while. And that was a long time ago. But I did survive that experience.
posted by kschang at 9:37 AM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I grew up as just a Mandarin speaker, until I emigrated to... Hong Kong at about 10, and spent one month in a English/Cantonese school. That was basically the first F I've gotten in my life. Then I moved to... South America, and was enrolled in a school at age of about 11 where Spanish is the dominant language, with secondary English. There is basically three other Chinese speakers in this school... me, my younger brother, and an older kid (i.e. none share any of my classes). My parents hired a tutor that go me through the rough spots, but it was pretty rough for a while. And that was a long time ago. But I did survive that experience.
posted by kschang at 9:37 AM on September 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think some people are underestimating just how hard it is to pick up a language by immersion. Yes, immigrant kids can do it, but it takes them years. And adding that on top of being a young teen is pretty hard.
I think you should be looking hard for other expats who have an English-speaking kid, or have the teachers (or your kid) recommend if one of the other students is better at English than the others, and invite them over individually. Or if you're going to be in this country awhile, work as a family on learning the local language.
If your kid is good at languages and wants to learn the third language, it's a good opportunity to learn it-- but don't rely on immersion; get the kid some instruction. (Maybe one of the parents or students can tutor?)
posted by zompist at 6:04 PM on September 5, 2023
I think you should be looking hard for other expats who have an English-speaking kid, or have the teachers (or your kid) recommend if one of the other students is better at English than the others, and invite them over individually. Or if you're going to be in this country awhile, work as a family on learning the local language.
If your kid is good at languages and wants to learn the third language, it's a good opportunity to learn it-- but don't rely on immersion; get the kid some instruction. (Maybe one of the parents or students can tutor?)
posted by zompist at 6:04 PM on September 5, 2023
Yeah, it takes a long time to learn a language well. The question here, though, is how much you actually have to learn for speakers of that language to start to feel like you're someone they could include in their group. It depends on the personalities involved, obviously, but "hey, this person speaks a bit of X, they're trying to learn X, we can teach them some X, they don't look down on X, which means they don't look down on us, we can comfortably keep speaking X around them" is a different proposition than "they don't speak any X, just English, they're not interested in learning X, which is our language and our culture, they might look down on X, which means they might look down on us, we have to uncomfortably speak English if we hang out with them".
To me it seems like making any sort of progress in X is basically waving a big "I want to be friends" olive branch, and not trying to learn it is basically a statement that you're not interested in being friends with all the X speakers. The advice to learn X isn't to learn it perfectly and then make friends. It's "get started, show that you're a person who's trying and interested and actually wants to interact". It's "show that you're willing to enter their world instead of making them all come to yours". And a lot of people are much more willing to speak in halting English with someone who is also haltingly speaking their language than they are when they're the only ones at a disadvantage, when everyone has to contort themselves for the single English speaker, who doesn't have to try.
If this is a situation like geological refugees, as mentioned above, there's also a lot to think about in terms of what all these X speakers might be going through, and what speaking in X means to them as opposed to having to speak in English and having to try to fit in in a country where maybe the fact that they even have to be there may be a huge tragedy. Not to mention whatever anti-refugee or anti-immigrant attitudes they may have to constantly deal with and be aware of, and which they may project onto the kid who has no interest in learning even a bit of their language.
posted by trig at 1:15 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
To me it seems like making any sort of progress in X is basically waving a big "I want to be friends" olive branch, and not trying to learn it is basically a statement that you're not interested in being friends with all the X speakers. The advice to learn X isn't to learn it perfectly and then make friends. It's "get started, show that you're a person who's trying and interested and actually wants to interact". It's "show that you're willing to enter their world instead of making them all come to yours". And a lot of people are much more willing to speak in halting English with someone who is also haltingly speaking their language than they are when they're the only ones at a disadvantage, when everyone has to contort themselves for the single English speaker, who doesn't have to try.
If this is a situation like geological refugees, as mentioned above, there's also a lot to think about in terms of what all these X speakers might be going through, and what speaking in X means to them as opposed to having to speak in English and having to try to fit in in a country where maybe the fact that they even have to be there may be a huge tragedy. Not to mention whatever anti-refugee or anti-immigrant attitudes they may have to constantly deal with and be aware of, and which they may project onto the kid who has no interest in learning even a bit of their language.
posted by trig at 1:15 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I went to an international school from the ages of 4 to 18. I was an Italian kid going to an English school (first international, then explicitly British) in Italy. The kids naturally split into three groups: Italian kids, anglophone expat kids, and all other expat kids. School was 100% in English except for Italian language classes split by level (so Italian kids would do literature and non-speaking kids would learn the language), we were meant to publicly speak English and were reprimanded for speaking any other language.
It is a tough environment. The problem is that an already small pool of potential friends gets further reduced by language barriers. I had nothing in common with most of the Italian kids except my nationality and was not accepted by the expat groups BECAUSE I was a local kid.
The key is to make individual friends. One on one all the shared interests beyond language become more prominent, in groups that goes out the window. Start with finding A friend, go from there.
posted by lydhre at 10:44 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is a tough environment. The problem is that an already small pool of potential friends gets further reduced by language barriers. I had nothing in common with most of the Italian kids except my nationality and was not accepted by the expat groups BECAUSE I was a local kid.
The key is to make individual friends. One on one all the shared interests beyond language become more prominent, in groups that goes out the window. Start with finding A friend, go from there.
posted by lydhre at 10:44 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
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posted by rd45 at 1:09 AM on September 5, 2023 [5 favorites]