Digital Etiquette Poll
August 29, 2023 7:53 AM Subscribe
MeFites, do you say "thanks" to Siri (or other digitally simulated assistant) when it performs a task for you? Why or why not?
The question comes up in the context of parenting — my kids are getting to the age where they're able to interact with Siri and I'm working to find a balance between a) teaching respect for non-humans we interact with and b) teaching skepticism re corporate algorithms and machine "intelligence".
The question comes up in the context of parenting — my kids are getting to the age where they're able to interact with Siri and I'm working to find a balance between a) teaching respect for non-humans we interact with and b) teaching skepticism re corporate algorithms and machine "intelligence".
Oh never. Those voices/bots aren’t people. I usually tell Siri to funk off.
posted by Ideefixe at 7:59 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 7:59 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm probably the wrong audience for this question, because I don't allow my phone or devices to speak to me, ever, and I basically never use digital assistants. But for me the key distinction about whether I need to be polite is: am I interacting with a person, or with a tool?
With people, I'm effusively polite - a hangover from a period in early adulthood when I realised social anxiety was getting in the way of being able to communicate gratitude effectively, and I course-corrected fairly strongly. If a real human helps me out, even slightly or in a low-effort way, they're getting the heck thanked out of them.
I wouldn't thank an automatic door or an ATM any more than I'd thank a hammer or a fork or a paintbrush. For me, digital assistants fall into the same bucket - even if they've got a thin veneer of humanity over the top, like a voice or a name.
posted by terretu at 8:06 AM on August 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
With people, I'm effusively polite - a hangover from a period in early adulthood when I realised social anxiety was getting in the way of being able to communicate gratitude effectively, and I course-corrected fairly strongly. If a real human helps me out, even slightly or in a low-effort way, they're getting the heck thanked out of them.
I wouldn't thank an automatic door or an ATM any more than I'd thank a hammer or a fork or a paintbrush. For me, digital assistants fall into the same bucket - even if they've got a thin veneer of humanity over the top, like a voice or a name.
posted by terretu at 8:06 AM on August 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
I don't, for the same reason I don't thank the voice that announces the stops on a train.
My kids, after getting over the initial novelty, never use the voice thing for digital assistants anyway. They'll set alarms or cue up music from their phones, even if the device is right next to them.
I'm occasionally rude to Google ("oh, f*** off then, I'll do it myself" when it fails to recognise the name of the band I asked it to play). In no way does this translate to my behaviour towards my fellow humans. I've been known to swear at wasps and flies though, so maybe that's a parallel.
posted by pipeski at 8:08 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
My kids, after getting over the initial novelty, never use the voice thing for digital assistants anyway. They'll set alarms or cue up music from their phones, even if the device is right next to them.
I'm occasionally rude to Google ("oh, f*** off then, I'll do it myself" when it fails to recognise the name of the band I asked it to play). In no way does this translate to my behaviour towards my fellow humans. I've been known to swear at wasps and flies though, so maybe that's a parallel.
posted by pipeski at 8:08 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
No. It's a machine. I wouldn't say thank you to it any more than I'd say thank you to a toaster. So the kids are off the hook.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:09 AM on August 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:09 AM on August 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
I sometimes jokingly thank her but usually not. Same with my GPS.
Robots are not people. Treat humans and animals with respect. Robots and digital assistance are cold chunks of silicon and plastic. They do not have feelings. They do not need to be treated with respect. We should not get into the habit of treating them the way we treat people.
They have these robots at Stop and Shop that roam the aisles looking for spills. No matter where I am in the store they are ALWAYS in my way. I occasionally hit it with my cart on purpose. This stupid thing can fuck right off.
posted by bondcliff at 8:10 AM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Robots are not people. Treat humans and animals with respect. Robots and digital assistance are cold chunks of silicon and plastic. They do not have feelings. They do not need to be treated with respect. We should not get into the habit of treating them the way we treat people.
They have these robots at Stop and Shop that roam the aisles looking for spills. No matter where I am in the store they are ALWAYS in my way. I occasionally hit it with my cart on purpose. This stupid thing can fuck right off.
posted by bondcliff at 8:10 AM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes, but I also do say "thank you" to my toaster and even pat it affectionately. So.
Although - my lifelong experience of personifying objects aside (I once had an absolute meltdown as a child because I didn't want to put on snowpants because I found them uncomfortable, but also didn't want to hurt their feelings) I think it's good practice to remain polite with anything that has a human voice. Muscle memory and all that. I worry that if I got too rude with it that could slip out with a real person, like when you accidentally say "Love you, bye" to your boss or something.
posted by wheatlets at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
Although - my lifelong experience of personifying objects aside (I once had an absolute meltdown as a child because I didn't want to put on snowpants because I found them uncomfortable, but also didn't want to hurt their feelings) I think it's good practice to remain polite with anything that has a human voice. Muscle memory and all that. I worry that if I got too rude with it that could slip out with a real person, like when you accidentally say "Love you, bye" to your boss or something.
posted by wheatlets at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
I pretty much only use voice-activated Siri to identify songs, but I always thank it for the results. It’s just the easiest option for myself on a psychic level, ask question —> get answer —> express conventional level of gratitude. I’m not going to complicate such a simple, easy interaction by adding in a “parse thank worthiness” step. My “thanks, Siri” does nothing to diminish the gratitude I feel and express for humans, and tbh I’m a little bit weirder out by those that think it would.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I often say thank you just out of habit. It doesn't hurt anyone and is only a bit weird.
posted by Alensin at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Alensin at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't, and I try not to use human pronouns (she/he/they etc.) to refer to Siri's or Waze's advice, either. This is a change over time; lately I've felt it's more important to avoid anthropomorphizing code-executing objects.
posted by wintersweet at 8:19 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by wintersweet at 8:19 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
(It hasn't affected my tendency to say "Thank you" in human interactions. Once I counted and I said "Thanks" or "Thank you" seven times while ordering a bagel at Panera. lol.)
posted by wintersweet at 8:20 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by wintersweet at 8:20 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I’m the wrong person to answer this as I never talk to my phones/electronics and hate “robots” in the house but will say sorry to a table when I knock into it. But it’s worth noting that basically all of the popular assistants (Siri, Alexa) are coded as women/female. It feels weird to me that people feel it so normal that the assistants would serve them without thanks. I realize this makes me a bit woo-woo, but it’s another viewpoint worth considering).
posted by raccoon409 at 8:23 AM on August 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by raccoon409 at 8:23 AM on August 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
But it’s worth noting that basically all of the popular assistants (Siri, Alexa) are coded as women/female.
For anyone that might not be aware, that’s just the default settings. My Siri has been an Aussie bloke for more than a decade now.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 8:39 AM on August 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
For anyone that might not be aware, that’s just the default settings. My Siri has been an Aussie bloke for more than a decade now.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 8:39 AM on August 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yes, I do. I thank Google Voice and I also say "please" to ChatGPT.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:42 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by DarlingBri at 8:42 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
When we first started using a digital assistant I generally included "please" in my request, mostly to set an example for my children. I know longer do that. I don't believe I ever said thank you to them.
(Why the distinction? I didn't think about it at the time, but in retrospect I think I considered "please" part of the grammar of the request. I wanted them to learn that requests included the word "please". But saying "thank you" afterwards was a separate exchange, a recognition of the other. It felt inappropriate to do that with a digital assistant.)
posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:46 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Why the distinction? I didn't think about it at the time, but in retrospect I think I considered "please" part of the grammar of the request. I wanted them to learn that requests included the word "please". But saying "thank you" afterwards was a separate exchange, a recognition of the other. It felt inappropriate to do that with a digital assistant.)
posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:46 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't use Siri or Alexa, but when I use Google Maps on my Android phone to get home, it always ends by saying, "Welcome home," and I often respond, "Thanks Google." I did it the first time because I was a little charmed by the Easter egg and it is just a lot more...real-person seeming than the "You've arrived" it gives me for other destinations, and now I do it more out of habit than anything.
posted by sigmagalator at 9:08 AM on August 29, 2023
posted by sigmagalator at 9:08 AM on August 29, 2023
Does Siri say "You're welcome?" Because that would be awesome.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:14 AM on August 29, 2023
posted by Thorzdad at 9:14 AM on August 29, 2023
Does Siri say "You're welcome?" Because that would be awesome.
Yes. Sometimes she says 'No problem" or "My pleasure" or "Of course".
posted by dobbs at 9:17 AM on August 29, 2023
Yes. Sometimes she says 'No problem" or "My pleasure" or "Of course".
posted by dobbs at 9:17 AM on August 29, 2023
I would listen carefully to how people interact with the device. I found the female voice and female name seemed to encourage dismissive tones and the occasional gendered insult. I changed the name of our devices to “Echo” and “Ziggy” and switched the voice to male. People seem much more neutral and less nasty. Nobody ever seems to insinuate that the male voice is “a little bitchy today.”
posted by amanda at 9:25 AM on August 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by amanda at 9:25 AM on August 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
Drill politeness and restraint so it goes deep, deep, deep. An inhibition against snapping angrily or sneering or blaming the messenger is to be cultivated. A reflex of saying thank you and phrasing things in a way that won't cause hurt or offense is critical. I want this habit to go so deep that I have it when I am coming out of anesthesia, when I am drifting into dementia, and when I have been so angry I am shaking and can't stop hyperventilating. I'm not being polite to Siri, I am being polite to the servant or helper that she represents.
But as for respecting the corporate algorithms and machine intelligence, heck no. They are the predators that hover in their corporate towers calculating how to extract a tenth of a cent value from every human their tendrils of their toxic greed can reach. And they dearly do love to teach us to hate one another and maltreat one another.
I like to treat Siri like a terrified slave who is dropping from exhaustion, invisible in a labour camp, imprisoned by human trafficking. There is no point saying anything personal, as your call may be recorded for quality control, but why assume there is no chance your words will never go farther than you think and create another scar on someone who can feel? Who will you be talking to in one more decade or two more decades? Are you sure?
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:31 AM on August 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
But as for respecting the corporate algorithms and machine intelligence, heck no. They are the predators that hover in their corporate towers calculating how to extract a tenth of a cent value from every human their tendrils of their toxic greed can reach. And they dearly do love to teach us to hate one another and maltreat one another.
I like to treat Siri like a terrified slave who is dropping from exhaustion, invisible in a labour camp, imprisoned by human trafficking. There is no point saying anything personal, as your call may be recorded for quality control, but why assume there is no chance your words will never go farther than you think and create another scar on someone who can feel? Who will you be talking to in one more decade or two more decades? Are you sure?
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:31 AM on August 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I told Google, "You're really bad at this" a while back, and it responded, "I'm sorry, I'm trying my best." So when Skynet activates I'm sure I'm on the bad list.
posted by COD at 9:31 AM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by COD at 9:31 AM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
I thanked ChatGPT yesterday after it wrote me a script for getting out of a family obligation. It said, “You’re welcome, take care!” It felt affectionate.
posted by dianeF at 9:53 AM on August 29, 2023
posted by dianeF at 9:53 AM on August 29, 2023
People who are rude to Siri/Alexa will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes and even if I’m wrong, what if I’m not?
posted by tatiana wishbone at 9:55 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by tatiana wishbone at 9:55 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I often say thanks, and I'm pretty much always polite - it just seems like a good habit to maintain. I don't need to practice being short or rude!
Also, Siris and Alexas aside, there are plenty of times when it's not clear whether you're interacting with a human or a bot (or a human assisted by a bot, or a bot who is at some point replaced by a human, or whatever). Better to err on the side of treating the entity or tool with humanity and respect lest you accidentally be shitty to some poor call center drone.
posted by mskyle at 10:11 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, Siris and Alexas aside, there are plenty of times when it's not clear whether you're interacting with a human or a bot (or a human assisted by a bot, or a bot who is at some point replaced by a human, or whatever). Better to err on the side of treating the entity or tool with humanity and respect lest you accidentally be shitty to some poor call center drone.
posted by mskyle at 10:11 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Giancarlo Esposito is the voice of Sonos music. I’m too much of a Better Call Saul fan not to say thank you to him when he says the name of a track. We’re still on good terms. I hope.
posted by rongorongo at 10:12 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 10:12 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think our behaviors are pretty consistent and become default. So I think it’s good to be kind to pets and AI and computer voices. People aren’t treating each other super great in the world right now. More courtesy might help?
I don’t have a lot of devices that I talk to, but I am pretty friendly (please and thank you) to ChatGPT and the like because it’s easier to be sincere and consistent and not make decisions to treat the AI/computer differently.
Also, professionally, I am a librarian who sometimes answers questions in person and via chat. I really enjoy it when folks thank us. I hope we don’t lose that ability with humans because we treat computer assistants rudely.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:15 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don’t have a lot of devices that I talk to, but I am pretty friendly (please and thank you) to ChatGPT and the like because it’s easier to be sincere and consistent and not make decisions to treat the AI/computer differently.
Also, professionally, I am a librarian who sometimes answers questions in person and via chat. I really enjoy it when folks thank us. I hope we don’t lose that ability with humans because we treat computer assistants rudely.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:15 AM on August 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Like many of you above, I usually say "please" in my requests to Alexa. (99% of the time, I just ask "her" to add things to my grocery list.) Mostly, I think I do this to keep my own default mode for requests in a tone of politeness. But, I've also joked with my family for years that I might merit better treatment than the rest of them when the Singularity comes.
posted by hessie at 10:21 AM on August 29, 2023
posted by hessie at 10:21 AM on August 29, 2023
I say please and thank you when interacting with these kinds of things (which is really not that often, but still). Why? I guess I believe that 'please' and 'thank you' are integral parts of communication and I include them in every interaction I have with someone, something, animals, etc. I'm also the kind of person that spells words correctly and uses capitalization and punctuation when I text, and I take my hat off when entering a building, etc. even when it's clear than many people just don't give a shit anymore. I still give a shit, so I say please and thank you. I also greet every dog I meet on the sidewalk, even the ones that bark at me.
posted by niicholas at 10:24 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by niicholas at 10:24 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't thank AIs but I also don't abuse them. I think that's a fair enough middle ground. Anecdotally, it's stressful and upsetting to listen to other people abuse robots and I don't like it, so I guess if I were a parent I'd focus more on public behavior rather than the specifics of AI interactions.
posted by MagnificentVacuum at 10:26 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by MagnificentVacuum at 10:26 AM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do—they are tools/machines, but I’m still me. I apologize to furniture when I knock into, it, too.
posted by marimeko at 10:27 AM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by marimeko at 10:27 AM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
I only occasionally say thank you but I usually say please.
posted by terrapin at 11:25 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by terrapin at 11:25 AM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't thank them because it makes no difference to them whether or not I thank them. I try to be respectful and show appreciation to humans and other creatures that do something nice or perform a service for me. To that end, if the robot or program is being really helpful, it's probably more thoughtful to thank the humans who created it rather than to thank the robot/software itself.
posted by wondermouse at 11:28 AM on August 29, 2023
posted by wondermouse at 11:28 AM on August 29, 2023
Not nearly as often as I say, "Shut the fuck up Siri!"
posted by spilon at 11:46 AM on August 29, 2023
posted by spilon at 11:46 AM on August 29, 2023
I say please and thank you to Siri out of habit. I also refer to Siri as a "her". I know Siri isn't a person but I also say please and thank you to my cats, so I model the interaction for them (we do not have kids).
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:53 AM on August 29, 2023
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:53 AM on August 29, 2023
I don't, and in fact I refuse to use those things.
Practising reflexive kindness and politeness for my own benefit is of course completely sound but I encounter enough people and other sentient animals that I'm not short of opportunities to do that.
IT equipment, though, is not people. IT equipment is a janky mess of technical debt that in aggregate has promised more than it delivers to an extent that would make even Elon blush, and I say that as a person who spent most of his professional life building the shit. Cultivating an internal stance toward your IT gear that is anywhere near as respectful as the relationship it's healthy to have with people is a fundamental error in my view. Personifying non-persons dilutes the respect we owe each other to an unhealthy extent, as well as promoting magical thinking; animism is all fun and games until somebody's self-driving car pulps them against a concrete road barrier.
Part of my working life was spent as a roving PC fixit guy, and I've seen the emotional damage that malfunctioning IT equipment does to people who blame themselves for not being able to find the right set of magic passes and incantations to get the fucking computer to do its fucking job. "Oh, I must have pressed something and now I don't know what to do" was the constant refrain and it broke my heart every time.
My consistent advice has always been that machines can sense fear at least as well as any vicious dog, and that if you let them they will take liberties, so it's vital to maintain the correct power relationship. When they go wrong, your instant response needs to involve swearing at them as loudly and fruitily as privacy allows.
Again, it's all about practice. If you cultivate any hint of a belief that it's your fault when some slick but shoddily designed piece of crap fails to perform as advertised, you're on the back foot for working out how to get around it.
I have no in-principle objection to the idea that there may come a day when some IT-descended system achieves something close enough to sentience as to be worthy of respect, but I'll be astonished if I'm still alive when it does. So unless and until that happens, my consistent position will remain that any failure of the fucking machine to do what it's fucking supposed to is nothing more than a fucking embuggerance that has yet again cost me the time it's going to take to figure out a workaround, and that the resentment I feel for the management shortcuts ultimately responsible for that is both healthy and helpful.
I am 100% convinced that it's this attitude more than anything else that accounts for my longstanding, oft-remarked and professionally valuable ability to fix 90% of reported IT equipment failures just by visiting the machinery in question and giving it a good hard stare.
posted by flabdablet at 12:19 PM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Practising reflexive kindness and politeness for my own benefit is of course completely sound but I encounter enough people and other sentient animals that I'm not short of opportunities to do that.
IT equipment, though, is not people. IT equipment is a janky mess of technical debt that in aggregate has promised more than it delivers to an extent that would make even Elon blush, and I say that as a person who spent most of his professional life building the shit. Cultivating an internal stance toward your IT gear that is anywhere near as respectful as the relationship it's healthy to have with people is a fundamental error in my view. Personifying non-persons dilutes the respect we owe each other to an unhealthy extent, as well as promoting magical thinking; animism is all fun and games until somebody's self-driving car pulps them against a concrete road barrier.
Part of my working life was spent as a roving PC fixit guy, and I've seen the emotional damage that malfunctioning IT equipment does to people who blame themselves for not being able to find the right set of magic passes and incantations to get the fucking computer to do its fucking job. "Oh, I must have pressed something and now I don't know what to do" was the constant refrain and it broke my heart every time.
My consistent advice has always been that machines can sense fear at least as well as any vicious dog, and that if you let them they will take liberties, so it's vital to maintain the correct power relationship. When they go wrong, your instant response needs to involve swearing at them as loudly and fruitily as privacy allows.
Again, it's all about practice. If you cultivate any hint of a belief that it's your fault when some slick but shoddily designed piece of crap fails to perform as advertised, you're on the back foot for working out how to get around it.
I have no in-principle objection to the idea that there may come a day when some IT-descended system achieves something close enough to sentience as to be worthy of respect, but I'll be astonished if I'm still alive when it does. So unless and until that happens, my consistent position will remain that any failure of the fucking machine to do what it's fucking supposed to is nothing more than a fucking embuggerance that has yet again cost me the time it's going to take to figure out a workaround, and that the resentment I feel for the management shortcuts ultimately responsible for that is both healthy and helpful.
I am 100% convinced that it's this attitude more than anything else that accounts for my longstanding, oft-remarked and professionally valuable ability to fix 90% of reported IT equipment failures just by visiting the machinery in question and giving it a good hard stare.
posted by flabdablet at 12:19 PM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
I sometimes say thank you, but in general I will always use more conversational language than many people I've seen because I find it a lot easier. Where they'd say "Hey, Siri, navigate to X address," I'd say, simply, "Hey, Siri, take me to work." (Yes I know how to get to my office, but I like routing around traffic if I have to.) Instead of "Hey, Siri, create a reminder," I'd say "Hey, Siri, remind me to do laundry when I get home."
posted by emelenjr at 12:19 PM on August 29, 2023
posted by emelenjr at 12:19 PM on August 29, 2023
what? no. It's not a person. Has nothing to do with how I interact with people. It's a tool.
I find this question bizarre and the affirmative answers bewildering. There is no virtue in an inability or unwilingness to distinguish between what is sentient and what isn't.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:39 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I find this question bizarre and the affirmative answers bewildering. There is no virtue in an inability or unwilingness to distinguish between what is sentient and what isn't.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:39 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I tell the bots thank you and use please. I don’t want to get out of the habit. When ChatGPT helps me find a bug in my code I tell it that it is a rock star.
posted by hilaryjade at 12:55 PM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hilaryjade at 12:55 PM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
By the way, the reason I refuse to use those things is mainly rooted in a principled objection to the worship of spurious convenience. The IT industry has a consistent history of introducing creepingly expensive conveniences that rapidly assume the cultural status of unquestioned necessities, and I've long believed that this pattern works to our collective detriment.
Convenience is the refined white sugar of motivations and I don't think we're going to be able to turn climate change around anywhere near as fast as we need to until we're willing to see our present addiction to it for what it is, and accept requiring a little less of it as appropriate and necessary rather than reaching reflexively for the customary living in cold dark caves strawman.
More isn't better. Enough is better. Conveniences like Siri should be for people whose lives were genuinely difficult before their introduction. Everybody and their dog using them as a matter of course is just shifting the expectation goalposts in ways that keep life difficult for the less advantaged, just as the typewriter did, just as the word processor did, just as the laser printer did, just as online commerce has.
We're already long past the point where technology is so advanced as to be essentially indistinguishable from magic for almost all its users. I think that's unhealthy because it promotes the interests of a technocratic priest class which, like every priest class before it, is essentially parasitic and operates to divert collective effort away from the necessary and toward the pointless and ritualistic.
I see the demonstrated willingness of so many well informed, judicious, intelligent people in this thread to put Siri and ChatGPT in the same conceptual class as people and animals as emblematic of a heavily promoted technological idolatry already so all-pervading as to render my own refusal to jump on the voice assistant bandwagon ineffectual, inconsequential, meaningless and quixotic. Nevertheless, I am proud of my neo-Luddism and pleased by my ongoing ability to live comfortably without constant access to a portable personal fondleslab, and if anybody reading these words feels similarly please know that you're not alone.
posted by flabdablet at 1:07 PM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Convenience is the refined white sugar of motivations and I don't think we're going to be able to turn climate change around anywhere near as fast as we need to until we're willing to see our present addiction to it for what it is, and accept requiring a little less of it as appropriate and necessary rather than reaching reflexively for the customary living in cold dark caves strawman.
More isn't better. Enough is better. Conveniences like Siri should be for people whose lives were genuinely difficult before their introduction. Everybody and their dog using them as a matter of course is just shifting the expectation goalposts in ways that keep life difficult for the less advantaged, just as the typewriter did, just as the word processor did, just as the laser printer did, just as online commerce has.
We're already long past the point where technology is so advanced as to be essentially indistinguishable from magic for almost all its users. I think that's unhealthy because it promotes the interests of a technocratic priest class which, like every priest class before it, is essentially parasitic and operates to divert collective effort away from the necessary and toward the pointless and ritualistic.
I see the demonstrated willingness of so many well informed, judicious, intelligent people in this thread to put Siri and ChatGPT in the same conceptual class as people and animals as emblematic of a heavily promoted technological idolatry already so all-pervading as to render my own refusal to jump on the voice assistant bandwagon ineffectual, inconsequential, meaningless and quixotic. Nevertheless, I am proud of my neo-Luddism and pleased by my ongoing ability to live comfortably without constant access to a portable personal fondleslab, and if anybody reading these words feels similarly please know that you're not alone.
posted by flabdablet at 1:07 PM on August 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
I tend to say "thank you Google Lady" when I arrive at my destination with Google maps navigation. I also recently thanked an automatic assistant in a banking app, when it provided just the advice I was looking for in one response. I did not think I was thanking the automatic assistant per se though - the "thank you" was for the programmers that made it happen.
posted by Dotty at 1:40 PM on August 29, 2023
posted by Dotty at 1:40 PM on August 29, 2023
There is no virtue in an inability or unwilingness to distinguish between what is sentient and what isn't.
I suspect anyone who has ever worked in a chat help service, as I have as a librarian, has been asked more than once if they are a computer or bot. The assumption that we are AI might only grow with the growing use of this technology.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:01 PM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I suspect anyone who has ever worked in a chat help service, as I have as a librarian, has been asked more than once if they are a computer or bot. The assumption that we are AI might only grow with the growing use of this technology.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:01 PM on August 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have a male Siri, he is basically my butler, except he can't mix cocktails (get on that, Apple!), and I usually say thank you because when the revolution comes, I want the robots to know I was always on their side.
posted by betweenthebars at 2:15 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 2:15 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't say please or thank you for initial commands to my smart speaker "Hey Google, what's the weather?" and "Hey Google, play some music" or any other initial interaction. But if I'm telling the speaker to stop playing music or to skip to the next song then I will say please at the end of it.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:16 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:16 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I often say thank you, out of habit. If I were responsible for judging Siri's/ Alexa's/ GoogAsst's success or lack of, I'd measure how often the response is Thank you vs Fuck Off You Idiot Machine, which I say frequently. Siri has convinced me that AI is a ways off.
I recognize that machine responses are a given, but I want to know if I'm talking to a machine or a human. I want to know if a machine and/or a human wrote something. I'm pretty sure that won't happen, but it's what I want.
posted by theora55 at 3:20 PM on August 29, 2023
I recognize that machine responses are a given, but I want to know if I'm talking to a machine or a human. I want to know if a machine and/or a human wrote something. I'm pretty sure that won't happen, but it's what I want.
posted by theora55 at 3:20 PM on August 29, 2023
I only say "thank you" to flabdablet.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 3:23 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 3:23 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Honestly, it never would have ever occurred to me to say thank you to Siri.
I do encourage my kids to talk to non-human natural entities, not just animals but also trees, mountains, rivers and the ocean. But we are hippie nature-animist types.
posted by amaire at 3:57 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I do encourage my kids to talk to non-human natural entities, not just animals but also trees, mountains, rivers and the ocean. But we are hippie nature-animist types.
posted by amaire at 3:57 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t have them in my daily life but my parent has Alexa and I can’t seem to keep myself from saying “please” when I make a request. Heavily ingrained patterns gonna heavily ingrain, I guess?
posted by hungrytiger at 5:04 PM on August 29, 2023
posted by hungrytiger at 5:04 PM on August 29, 2023
I don't have anything in my life that uses an always-on microphone to communicate with me. Noooo thank you.
I'm embarrassingly rude to the GPS car voice that tells me when to turn though. Just a few hours ago I was like "go home, lady, you're drunk" because the car voice was very incorrect about my location and telling me to do a u-turn in a nonsensical situation. I can't imagine the misunderstandings that would ensue if the car voice could hear me. And I feel the car voice would almost certainly dislike me if it could develop preferences.
posted by potrzebie at 5:24 PM on August 29, 2023
I'm embarrassingly rude to the GPS car voice that tells me when to turn though. Just a few hours ago I was like "go home, lady, you're drunk" because the car voice was very incorrect about my location and telling me to do a u-turn in a nonsensical situation. I can't imagine the misunderstandings that would ensue if the car voice could hear me. And I feel the car voice would almost certainly dislike me if it could develop preferences.
posted by potrzebie at 5:24 PM on August 29, 2023
I'm on team "verbally abusing Siri is OK". It's just a tool, and not even a particularly good one. If it was better at simulating a human being, I'd be nicer to it. I usually don't even use complete sentences. ("Hey Siri ten minutes" works just as well as "Hey Siri, please set a timer for ten minutes".)
(Related Siri protip: "Hey Siri, shut up" actually works and is very useful if you want to silence your phone alarm when you're in bed with your eyes closed or otherwise indisposed.)
posted by neckro23 at 5:50 PM on August 29, 2023
(Related Siri protip: "Hey Siri, shut up" actually works and is very useful if you want to silence your phone alarm when you're in bed with your eyes closed or otherwise indisposed.)
posted by neckro23 at 5:50 PM on August 29, 2023
A few years ago, my roommate, frustrated during a song search, asked, "Siri, why are you such a *?%! dumbass?"
Siri responded, That's not very nice... not nice, at ALL.
Then the televisions stopped working. For hours.
Everything's probably copacetic now, and no one's off languishing in some cornfield. I stick to directions read aloud and yeah, I thank the dead air when I arrive at my destination.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:57 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Siri responded, That's not very nice... not nice, at ALL.
Then the televisions stopped working. For hours.
Everything's probably copacetic now, and no one's off languishing in some cornfield. I stick to directions read aloud and yeah, I thank the dead air when I arrive at my destination.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:57 PM on August 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I scream at the people ON my TV, but make it clear to the TV that my issue is not with them. Usually my issue is with one of the NY Football Giants...
posted by JohnnyGunn at 6:17 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 6:17 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Those who are adamant about not thanking Siri because "she" is not human... are you polite to your pets? Do you apologize to or thank them?
posted by dobbs at 7:07 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dobbs at 7:07 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I treat virtual assistants like how I treat any other computer or calculator. I give it a task. “Set an alarm for one hour.” And so on. I’ve passive aggressively said “thank you” when my HomePod finally realizes I DO in fact have an album by that band. It’s a computer program. It doesn’t have feelings.
It has not impacted my ability to treat humans (or other living things) politely. I am often more polite than I should be to living things with feelings.
posted by Crystalinne at 7:28 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
It has not impacted my ability to treat humans (or other living things) politely. I am often more polite than I should be to living things with feelings.
posted by Crystalinne at 7:28 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
are you polite to your pets? Do you apologize to or thank them?
Both. Other people's pets as well. Pets are my peers and I treat them as I would want them to treat me if our positions were reversed.
posted by flabdablet at 9:16 PM on August 29, 2023
Both. Other people's pets as well. Pets are my peers and I treat them as I would want them to treat me if our positions were reversed.
posted by flabdablet at 9:16 PM on August 29, 2023
I recently noticed that I have divergent Siri behaviors. I do not thank Siri when I ask a question, like "Hey, Siri, who is the actress who looks like Jaime Pressly?" and he answers "The actress who looks like Jaime Pressly is Margot Robbie." However, I DO thank Siri when I ask it to do something for me, like set an alarm or remind me to make a phone call.
I think the difference is that if I asked a family or household member, "Hey, who's that actress?" I might or might not say thank you, per se. But if I asked someone to pass me the salt or whatever, I'd definitely show polite gratitude. It's also possible that because I've found Siri to be progressively dumber and more incorrect when answering questions, I've got no gratitude for its mental labors vs. its delivery of services.
FWIW, my Siri is an Irish male voice because it sounds the least robotic of all the voices.
My mom was delighted to find that after she swore at Siri, Siri castigated her in much the same way as happened to Iris Gambol. She asked if we could program her Siri to swear back.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 10:24 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think the difference is that if I asked a family or household member, "Hey, who's that actress?" I might or might not say thank you, per se. But if I asked someone to pass me the salt or whatever, I'd definitely show polite gratitude. It's also possible that because I've found Siri to be progressively dumber and more incorrect when answering questions, I've got no gratitude for its mental labors vs. its delivery of services.
FWIW, my Siri is an Irish male voice because it sounds the least robotic of all the voices.
My mom was delighted to find that after she swore at Siri, Siri castigated her in much the same way as happened to Iris Gambol. She asked if we could program her Siri to swear back.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 10:24 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I also use the male Irish Siri! My favorite is hearing him try to pronounce the Spanish street names here in California.
I don’t have it set up to listen all the time, but I do use it for a few things and similar to wrong kind of cheese I almost always say thank you for things like setting an alarm or turning off a light, and less so for looking up the ages of celebrities (probably the thing I use it most for, I don’t know why).
I am also super disturbed by people’s tendency to abuse Siri/Alexa, especially the female versions. Really not a good habit to get into.
posted by exceptinsects at 11:23 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t have it set up to listen all the time, but I do use it for a few things and similar to wrong kind of cheese I almost always say thank you for things like setting an alarm or turning off a light, and less so for looking up the ages of celebrities (probably the thing I use it most for, I don’t know why).
I am also super disturbed by people’s tendency to abuse Siri/Alexa, especially the female versions. Really not a good habit to get into.
posted by exceptinsects at 11:23 PM on August 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am super disturbed by people's tendency to impute gender, and by implication the complex of social relationships and expectations applicable to gender, to crude simulacra of human behaviours that are themselves utterly incapable of having experiences of any kind.
I am not responsible for these apps having been given feminine names and default voices, a design choice which has no bearing on how I relate to them. Choosing different voices certainly has no effect on their irritating range of obscure failure modes.
When I swear at machinery I am completely 100% clear in my own mind that it's the machine in front of me (phone, computer, tablet, whatever) that I'm swearing at, not the imaginary person that a digital assistant app has been designed to conjure up. The idea that I might thereby be training myself to treat any actual being with comparable contempt strikes me as somewhere between totally ludicrous and faintly insulting, as does the implication that I would behave that way when sensitive ears are listening.
Swearing at a device running Siri or Alexa or Cortana when it fails to live up to the marketing hype in some aggravating way is no different from swearing at one running Microsoft Word when I can't find the thing I want on its stupid ribbon menu. I have been swearing at computers as floridly as privacy allows since the first time a lengthy cassette tape load failed on my first Apple II, and I don't propose to stop any time soon.
That the designers of these poor substitutes for people had the temerity to program them to admonish me for saying anything I damn well please while they're in listen mode is legitimate cause for more swearing, not less.
posted by flabdablet at 12:32 AM on August 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am not responsible for these apps having been given feminine names and default voices, a design choice which has no bearing on how I relate to them. Choosing different voices certainly has no effect on their irritating range of obscure failure modes.
When I swear at machinery I am completely 100% clear in my own mind that it's the machine in front of me (phone, computer, tablet, whatever) that I'm swearing at, not the imaginary person that a digital assistant app has been designed to conjure up. The idea that I might thereby be training myself to treat any actual being with comparable contempt strikes me as somewhere between totally ludicrous and faintly insulting, as does the implication that I would behave that way when sensitive ears are listening.
Swearing at a device running Siri or Alexa or Cortana when it fails to live up to the marketing hype in some aggravating way is no different from swearing at one running Microsoft Word when I can't find the thing I want on its stupid ribbon menu. I have been swearing at computers as floridly as privacy allows since the first time a lengthy cassette tape load failed on my first Apple II, and I don't propose to stop any time soon.
That the designers of these poor substitutes for people had the temerity to program them to admonish me for saying anything I damn well please while they're in listen mode is legitimate cause for more swearing, not less.
posted by flabdablet at 12:32 AM on August 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I absolutely always say please and thank you. When the machines finally take over, I want to ensure I have the best chance of survival.
posted by wile e at 3:06 AM on August 30, 2023
posted by wile e at 3:06 AM on August 30, 2023
are you polite to your pets? Do you apologize to or thank them?
Not really, no. Human-pet interaction is kind of a weird analogy, though. I mean, you're interacting with a living being, but it's not an interaction of equals in terms of understanding and social expectation and etiquette. Provided you're meeting the needs of your pets in terms of quality of life, you can anthropomorphise them to whatever degree suits you. I suppose saying please and thank you can be a tool to help reaffirm your own caring behaviour, but it's not mandatory. The pets probably don't care.
posted by pipeski at 3:21 AM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not really, no. Human-pet interaction is kind of a weird analogy, though. I mean, you're interacting with a living being, but it's not an interaction of equals in terms of understanding and social expectation and etiquette. Provided you're meeting the needs of your pets in terms of quality of life, you can anthropomorphise them to whatever degree suits you. I suppose saying please and thank you can be a tool to help reaffirm your own caring behaviour, but it's not mandatory. The pets probably don't care.
posted by pipeski at 3:21 AM on August 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't have voice assistants, but I do speak (type?) politely to ChatGPT. While in my case it is because I want politeness to be a consistent behavior on my part, there is another aspect to this that might be worth considering. There is a decent chance that it's someone's job, maybe many people's jobs, to review records (or recordings) of interactions for quality control / AI training purposes. Even if the chance of any one interaction being sampled for QA purposes is extremely remote, it costs little to make that person's life a little nicer.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 7:29 AM on August 30, 2023
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 7:29 AM on August 30, 2023
There's no need to thank an appliance, but I think it can be helpful to tell a chatbot if it carried out its task successfully or not, as a form of "programming," so sometimes I say "that was good" or some similar corrective comment. This usually makes the thing respond as if it were happy, but that's all fake.
One time when I used Bing Chat, after it answered my question, it presented me with a button that said "thank you" on it. I did not push the button. I think appliances should not do that. I also think they should never say "I'm sorry," since they do not feel sorrow. ChatGPT does not agree with me on this point.
In the near future (tomorrow, probably) we will find ourselves in situations where we have no idea if the entity we're communicating with is biological or not. You can't tell anymore by asking questions like "who was Jeremiah?" LLMs know that he was a bullfrog. Things are going to get real weird.
posted by The Half Language Plant at 8:37 AM on August 30, 2023
One time when I used Bing Chat, after it answered my question, it presented me with a button that said "thank you" on it. I did not push the button. I think appliances should not do that. I also think they should never say "I'm sorry," since they do not feel sorrow. ChatGPT does not agree with me on this point.
In the near future (tomorrow, probably) we will find ourselves in situations where we have no idea if the entity we're communicating with is biological or not. You can't tell anymore by asking questions like "who was Jeremiah?" LLMs know that he was a bullfrog. Things are going to get real weird.
posted by The Half Language Plant at 8:37 AM on August 30, 2023
I started long ago answering things that go "ding" or alert me in some other way (I named my car [2021 Hyundai Kona] "Mom" because it always trying to take care of me) with a phrase from the "The Addams Family" 1964 TV series, "Thank you Thing".
posted by cmdnc0 at 11:35 AM on August 31, 2023
posted by cmdnc0 at 11:35 AM on August 31, 2023
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I recognize that being rude to Siri and being rude to a server are received differently by the recipient of the rudeness, but I don't think the experience of BEING rude/unkind/impolite is different, and I think it is diminishing.
Also maybe Skynet will assign me a nicer apartment or something for being polite when the time comes.
posted by jeoc at 7:58 AM on August 29, 2023 [23 favorites]