My dog runs off
August 20, 2023 9:11 AM Subscribe
About two years ago we adopted a dog that had lived as a stray for his first year. He is attached to us, and has met every training challenge except for coming when called. He’s part hound.
We recently got part of our yard fenced, but due to the layout of our yard we needed to leave a section semi open. The semi open area is a six foot high rock wall. He’s figured out the weak points of the design and has escaped again today. He has a route he travels (mostly woods and farmland and a routine (he comes back every forty minutes or so.) All of our neighbors except for one are understanding. Our main concern is him getting hit by a car because we live near busy streets.
Recently we met with a trainer who said we could practice recall obsessively and we’d still need to get a correction collar. We’re worried about temperament changes with that. He’s really a joy otherwise.
For the past two years we’ve taken him to dog parks and practiced recall, but it was hard with other dogs going after the high value trees. Then tried practicing recall with ever increasing lengths of leash, but he knows the difference between leash and freedom. I had thought getting the fence installed and practicing recall off leash outdoors would be the next step. But now I’m looking to address the fences weak spots, and am losing hope he’ll ever be safely contained or able to recall. I’m looking for training tips or stories with positive outcomes.
We recently got part of our yard fenced, but due to the layout of our yard we needed to leave a section semi open. The semi open area is a six foot high rock wall. He’s figured out the weak points of the design and has escaped again today. He has a route he travels (mostly woods and farmland and a routine (he comes back every forty minutes or so.) All of our neighbors except for one are understanding. Our main concern is him getting hit by a car because we live near busy streets.
Recently we met with a trainer who said we could practice recall obsessively and we’d still need to get a correction collar. We’re worried about temperament changes with that. He’s really a joy otherwise.
For the past two years we’ve taken him to dog parks and practiced recall, but it was hard with other dogs going after the high value trees. Then tried practicing recall with ever increasing lengths of leash, but he knows the difference between leash and freedom. I had thought getting the fence installed and practicing recall off leash outdoors would be the next step. But now I’m looking to address the fences weak spots, and am losing hope he’ll ever be safely contained or able to recall. I’m looking for training tips or stories with positive outcomes.
I'll be honest with you, a number of people I know with hounds think that outdoor recall is just not a thing with them. They scent or sight something and it obliterates all else in their little heads.
Please don't use a "correction collar" unless it is overwhelmingly necessary for some reason other than your convenience in letting him go out in the backyard unleashed.
posted by praemunire at 9:24 AM on August 20, 2023 [14 favorites]
Please don't use a "correction collar" unless it is overwhelmingly necessary for some reason other than your convenience in letting him go out in the backyard unleashed.
posted by praemunire at 9:24 AM on August 20, 2023 [14 favorites]
Is your intent to leave him in the yard unattended? If so I think the only solution is a complete enclosure. Recall doesn't translate to not leaving a boundary.
I was able to recall-train my greyhound and will let him off leash in select areas. The thing is it took literally several years to get there with progressively more training, I focused all my training on recall, and it only works if I continuously watch him for any sign he's thinking about leaving and remind him I'm here. And even with that, I have to see the deer or whatever he might want to chase first, because that will over ride any listening. He doesn't care about injuries when running, I don't think a e-collar would do anything helpful.
For a scent hound I'd expect the same for smells. Hounds just aren't boundary dogs. Even the farm dogs I know have huge spaces, are herding breeds, and it took a long time before they were ever allowed to roam the farm without a person.
posted by sepviva at 9:26 AM on August 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
I was able to recall-train my greyhound and will let him off leash in select areas. The thing is it took literally several years to get there with progressively more training, I focused all my training on recall, and it only works if I continuously watch him for any sign he's thinking about leaving and remind him I'm here. And even with that, I have to see the deer or whatever he might want to chase first, because that will over ride any listening. He doesn't care about injuries when running, I don't think a e-collar would do anything helpful.
For a scent hound I'd expect the same for smells. Hounds just aren't boundary dogs. Even the farm dogs I know have huge spaces, are herding breeds, and it took a long time before they were ever allowed to roam the farm without a person.
posted by sepviva at 9:26 AM on August 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
I know a lot of people look down on correction collars but for headstrong dogs there’s no quicker method of teaching them recall (which is pretty crucial)
I understand your sentiment about it and may get some hate for this but I’d recommend them heartily. They can be misused so having a good trainer is crucial. The buzz should be annoying, not painful. My 50lb German Shepard mix had hers set at 4 out of 100 and that was enough. They learn the behavior quick enough that you should barely need it after the first few days . Make sure you’re rewarding them as well for the good behavior.
We kept it on for six months and probably used it less then 10 times after the first two weeks.
Every dog is different and the amount of time and effort everyone can put in is different. I’d prefer not to have to use the correction collar and don’t use it for “tricks” nor addressing behavioral issues just recall, sit (our sit is also a stay), leash pulling, and a “place” command (dog goes to a bed at home and needs physical contact to release. It’s used if guests are around so the dogs don’t think they’re released from normal conversation.
The way I look at it is that after the initial training was done my dogs get more freedom because I trust them.
posted by bitdamaged at 9:31 AM on August 20, 2023
I understand your sentiment about it and may get some hate for this but I’d recommend them heartily. They can be misused so having a good trainer is crucial. The buzz should be annoying, not painful. My 50lb German Shepard mix had hers set at 4 out of 100 and that was enough. They learn the behavior quick enough that you should barely need it after the first few days . Make sure you’re rewarding them as well for the good behavior.
We kept it on for six months and probably used it less then 10 times after the first two weeks.
Every dog is different and the amount of time and effort everyone can put in is different. I’d prefer not to have to use the correction collar and don’t use it for “tricks” nor addressing behavioral issues just recall, sit (our sit is also a stay), leash pulling, and a “place” command (dog goes to a bed at home and needs physical contact to release. It’s used if guests are around so the dogs don’t think they’re released from normal conversation.
The way I look at it is that after the initial training was done my dogs get more freedom because I trust them.
posted by bitdamaged at 9:31 AM on August 20, 2023
Best answer: Coming in to echo that with some dogs, you may never be able to get a trustworthy recall, and those dogs are usually hounds. The Really Reliable Recall method by Leslie Nelson has useful emergency recall tips.
I think you’re right to be worried about temperament changes with correction collars. A German Shepherd might respond to a buzz that’s merely annoying, but as sepviva said above, hounds will run ignoring injuries, so it would have to be more unpleasant than that to work.
posted by wheatlets at 10:46 AM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think you’re right to be worried about temperament changes with correction collars. A German Shepherd might respond to a buzz that’s merely annoying, but as sepviva said above, hounds will run ignoring injuries, so it would have to be more unpleasant than that to work.
posted by wheatlets at 10:46 AM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Fence. Your dog (or rather its ancestors) is bred to have instincts that go for searching and hunting.
My dog is a herding dog and I put him in the car whenever we have guests. He is very lovely and generally obedient, but if there are more than two "items", he will try to make them stay in place. Regardless if they are humans or fowls or cattle. I can make him be polite, but I can't stop his instinct.
posted by mumimor at 11:15 AM on August 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
My dog is a herding dog and I put him in the car whenever we have guests. He is very lovely and generally obedient, but if there are more than two "items", he will try to make them stay in place. Regardless if they are humans or fowls or cattle. I can make him be polite, but I can't stop his instinct.
posted by mumimor at 11:15 AM on August 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'll be honest with you, a number of people I know with hounds think that outdoor recall is just not a thing with them. They scent or sight something and it obliterates all else in their little heads.
Have owned various types of hounds my entire life and agree with this.
My last one was a coonhound escape artist and could climb fences regardless of how you reinforced them or how much training we did. As soon as he was alone, he would escape and do a loop around the neighborhood to roam, he also had his own little route (all of the neighbors who left food out for the cats - lol). He could basically climb fences as good as person and at one point figured out how to get on the roof of our house. Love those dogs but they really just can't be let off leash or alone in an area that's not highly secured, they're very smart and its a doggie instinct you can't change in most cases.
I have friends who use hounds for hunting and they equip them with GPS collars because more often than not, they have to go track them down. What did they do before GPS collars? They lost a lot of dogs. My old coonhound was one of them - when I adopted them they said they found him a state game refuge missing his collar.
posted by bradbane at 1:25 PM on August 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Have owned various types of hounds my entire life and agree with this.
My last one was a coonhound escape artist and could climb fences regardless of how you reinforced them or how much training we did. As soon as he was alone, he would escape and do a loop around the neighborhood to roam, he also had his own little route (all of the neighbors who left food out for the cats - lol). He could basically climb fences as good as person and at one point figured out how to get on the roof of our house. Love those dogs but they really just can't be let off leash or alone in an area that's not highly secured, they're very smart and its a doggie instinct you can't change in most cases.
I have friends who use hounds for hunting and they equip them with GPS collars because more often than not, they have to go track them down. What did they do before GPS collars? They lost a lot of dogs. My old coonhound was one of them - when I adopted them they said they found him a state game refuge missing his collar.
posted by bradbane at 1:25 PM on August 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
We have two standard poodles currently. One is a master of escape, a year and a half old I think, and she will not recall. Treats work sometimes, but at other times not. We had a hole in one section of fence that I blocked with everything I could find. Mab found a way through that.
I also worked on a job like 30 years ago where we took Pointers and Vizlas out into farm fields to look for dead birds. Some of the Pointers just didn't care what commands I made, and a couple of them would just take off for some fun romping around, (looking at you Dan). So our bosses got us the shock collars. Which mostly got their attention, though it felt bad using them. Dan's sister Ann though, would just stand there and glare at me when I used it on her. She was having none of that shit.
I grew up with goldens, which about the most people-pleasing dogs there are. It was a shock to work with dogs who don't give a shit about praise. "I have a job to do, and I smell something!" So I would assume with hounds, those instinctual behaviors are not going to just go away.
They were all good dogs though.
Fix your fence situation.
posted by Windopaene at 2:09 PM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I also worked on a job like 30 years ago where we took Pointers and Vizlas out into farm fields to look for dead birds. Some of the Pointers just didn't care what commands I made, and a couple of them would just take off for some fun romping around, (looking at you Dan). So our bosses got us the shock collars. Which mostly got their attention, though it felt bad using them. Dan's sister Ann though, would just stand there and glare at me when I used it on her. She was having none of that shit.
I grew up with goldens, which about the most people-pleasing dogs there are. It was a shock to work with dogs who don't give a shit about praise. "I have a job to do, and I smell something!" So I would assume with hounds, those instinctual behaviors are not going to just go away.
They were all good dogs though.
Fix your fence situation.
posted by Windopaene at 2:09 PM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I basically never left my hounds unsupervised even in our fenced backyard (because the utility guy stops by and leaves the fence open, or a part of the fence is damaged, or today is the day they decide they can jump). They have a single thought in their mind and it's chase.
A correction collar isn't going to do anything anyway unless you have eyes on him. Same with an electric fence (they will learn to run through it). My recommendation is supervision unless on a leash or maybe in a dog run.
posted by muddgirl at 3:03 PM on August 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
A correction collar isn't going to do anything anyway unless you have eyes on him. Same with an electric fence (they will learn to run through it). My recommendation is supervision unless on a leash or maybe in a dog run.
posted by muddgirl at 3:03 PM on August 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
My dog is pretty tractable but if there is something REALLY EXCITING going on, he still won't always come when called. To be honest I think it's rare for that to be a 100% thing for most dogs, especially when they're young.
Are there places other than your yard where it's important to you to be able to let your dog off leash? If not, maybe post another question to brainstorm ideas for securing your yard. If yes and you want to keep trying, make sure you set him up to succeed by practicing recall when he's good and tired and less likely to be distracted by freedom.
posted by metasarah at 4:52 PM on August 20, 2023
Are there places other than your yard where it's important to you to be able to let your dog off leash? If not, maybe post another question to brainstorm ideas for securing your yard. If yes and you want to keep trying, make sure you set him up to succeed by practicing recall when he's good and tired and less likely to be distracted by freedom.
posted by metasarah at 4:52 PM on August 20, 2023
One thing to keep in mind about electric fences - aside from the fact that a lot of dogs will just ignore it and run through it - is that if the dog runs through the electric fence, the shock will disincentivize the dog from coming back into the fenced area.
With breeds like hounds, I would only let them off leash in an area with extremely secure fencing. Honestly, that's true for most dogs.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:13 PM on August 20, 2023
With breeds like hounds, I would only let them off leash in an area with extremely secure fencing. Honestly, that's true for most dogs.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:13 PM on August 20, 2023
Best answer: Seriously?? Get a trainer from this century. No clue why the US doesn't finally outlaw shock collars. There's plenty of Youtube videos of humans trying them - check out this lady: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koRBrb3-dCI. She is so scared (and surprisingly aggressive!), even though she can take the collar off at any time, and presumably understands electricity.
If you wouldn't wear a shock collar that goes off randomly and that you cannot under any circumstances take off, you don't get to put one on your dog.
I'm glad you don't want to. And yes, temperament changes are super likely, especially for carefree dogs who are "a joy".
Sorry about the rant. As for your main question, recall is simply a different skill set from staying safely contained. I'm having a hard time coming up with an analogy of how much those two are different, but...saying "we've practiced recall, but my dog still runs off" is sort of like being perplexed that your friends accepted your birthday party invitation, had a lovely time...and then went home. It's like, of course they did? That is what they do! You never said that you wanted them to stay forever, and if you planned a pajama party or a week-long hangout, you should have made that clear.
Random Thoughts About Recall
Your recall training is an awesome achievement. Congrats! Dog trainers have a trick for the pesky canines who know when they're still on a long line: cut off small bits of the leash at about a foot per week. Many dogs can be tricked by this method.
Stray dogs are scavengers. Using a prey dummy (a fabric zippered pouch that contains treats and mimics prey by being thrown, dragged on the ground, etc) can really help.
Random Thoughts About Safe Containment
Dogs, and hounds especially, need nose work. Scatter kibble in the grass every day. You can have him search for a whole meal, take 20 minutes, and end up happy and content to chill in the grass for a bit. Make a track with a bottle of chicken broth and put a cube of cheese at the end. Randomly call your dog to show him that you, the superior scenter, have just discovered a piece of hot dog in the brush or on a tree or under a log. Point magnanimously, have him find it. Hide the prey dummy or his favourite toy, have a party when he finds it (play!).
We recently got part of our yard fenced, but due to the layout of our yard we needed to leave a section semi open. The semi open area is a six foot high rock wall.
Having trouble imagining why the section needed to remain open. There's probably a solution. Maybe post a picture?
I had thought getting the fence installed and practicing recall off leash outdoors would be the next step.
Is your long-term plan to have your dog off-leash on walks/hikes? Or only ever in dog parks and the backyard?
But now I’m looking to address the fences weak spots, and am losing hope he’ll ever be safely contained or able to recall. I’m looking for training tips or stories with positive outcomes.
Oh, man, he's only two. You still have an excellent chance of getting him safely contained and good at recall. The main trick is to find what really delights him, then pair that with only recalls for eternity. With a hound, chances of the most delightful treat being the prey dummy are not bad at all. So, keep your head up. Maybe you're just an Amazon order away from success. And if not, keep asking, and people will throw more ideas at you, and because you're tenacious and motivated, you will get this done!
PS I know it can be super hard to find a good trainer, especially now that everyone has caught on and they'll call themselves "positive" and "force-free" while handing out prong collars. But if you're comfortable sharing your general area, I can probably point you to a directory recommended by kind and gentle trainers. And if you aren't, look up Kikopup on Youtube for some excellent solo training advice.
posted by toucan at 5:15 PM on August 20, 2023 [13 favorites]
If you wouldn't wear a shock collar that goes off randomly and that you cannot under any circumstances take off, you don't get to put one on your dog.
I'm glad you don't want to. And yes, temperament changes are super likely, especially for carefree dogs who are "a joy".
Sorry about the rant. As for your main question, recall is simply a different skill set from staying safely contained. I'm having a hard time coming up with an analogy of how much those two are different, but...saying "we've practiced recall, but my dog still runs off" is sort of like being perplexed that your friends accepted your birthday party invitation, had a lovely time...and then went home. It's like, of course they did? That is what they do! You never said that you wanted them to stay forever, and if you planned a pajama party or a week-long hangout, you should have made that clear.
Random Thoughts About Recall
Your recall training is an awesome achievement. Congrats! Dog trainers have a trick for the pesky canines who know when they're still on a long line: cut off small bits of the leash at about a foot per week. Many dogs can be tricked by this method.
Stray dogs are scavengers. Using a prey dummy (a fabric zippered pouch that contains treats and mimics prey by being thrown, dragged on the ground, etc) can really help.
Random Thoughts About Safe Containment
Dogs, and hounds especially, need nose work. Scatter kibble in the grass every day. You can have him search for a whole meal, take 20 minutes, and end up happy and content to chill in the grass for a bit. Make a track with a bottle of chicken broth and put a cube of cheese at the end. Randomly call your dog to show him that you, the superior scenter, have just discovered a piece of hot dog in the brush or on a tree or under a log. Point magnanimously, have him find it. Hide the prey dummy or his favourite toy, have a party when he finds it (play!).
We recently got part of our yard fenced, but due to the layout of our yard we needed to leave a section semi open. The semi open area is a six foot high rock wall.
Having trouble imagining why the section needed to remain open. There's probably a solution. Maybe post a picture?
I had thought getting the fence installed and practicing recall off leash outdoors would be the next step.
Is your long-term plan to have your dog off-leash on walks/hikes? Or only ever in dog parks and the backyard?
But now I’m looking to address the fences weak spots, and am losing hope he’ll ever be safely contained or able to recall. I’m looking for training tips or stories with positive outcomes.
Oh, man, he's only two. You still have an excellent chance of getting him safely contained and good at recall. The main trick is to find what really delights him, then pair that with only recalls for eternity. With a hound, chances of the most delightful treat being the prey dummy are not bad at all. So, keep your head up. Maybe you're just an Amazon order away from success. And if not, keep asking, and people will throw more ideas at you, and because you're tenacious and motivated, you will get this done!
PS I know it can be super hard to find a good trainer, especially now that everyone has caught on and they'll call themselves "positive" and "force-free" while handing out prong collars. But if you're comfortable sharing your general area, I can probably point you to a directory recommended by kind and gentle trainers. And if you aren't, look up Kikopup on Youtube for some excellent solo training advice.
posted by toucan at 5:15 PM on August 20, 2023 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you for all these answers! Lots of new information and ideas to chew on. I grew up with a black lab that would never dream of leaving the family radius, so I really didn’t know to expect recall to be such an issue. Hearing feedback re hounds specifically being challenging with recall makes me feel less like a failure. The dream is to be able to take him to off leash areas so he can run and sniff, but reliably come back. I’ll adjust my expectations and settle in for more training.
The fenced area is specifically for training and he won’t be unattended. I think adding an angled barricade at the top might do the trick as far as keeping him securely contained. I really think he’d enjoy scent work, and we’ll take the “correction collar” off the table.
posted by Phyllis keeps a tight rein at 6:24 PM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
The fenced area is specifically for training and he won’t be unattended. I think adding an angled barricade at the top might do the trick as far as keeping him securely contained. I really think he’d enjoy scent work, and we’ll take the “correction collar” off the table.
posted by Phyllis keeps a tight rein at 6:24 PM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Good, now where is the puppy tax???
posted by praemunire at 7:14 PM on August 20, 2023
posted by praemunire at 7:14 PM on August 20, 2023
Greyhound owner here - our rescue group makes people sign agreements that the dogs won't be off leash anywhere enclosed because (points to above posts) and also because they can go really really fast for long enough that you'll have a really hard time catching them and they won't find their way home easily. Fix the fence. Keep training for recall, but be realistic about the risk benefit of having your hound off -leash.
posted by canine epigram at 7:51 PM on August 20, 2023
posted by canine epigram at 7:51 PM on August 20, 2023
My friend who had a hound used to say, "You can take the hound out of the pound, but you can't take the hound out of the dog.". Hounds gonna hound.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:54 PM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 8:54 PM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Our coonhound is not food motivated (which is insane and makes me wonder why she is soo incredibly weird) so recall was a pain when she was younger. We did a lot of walking around the fenced yard with her, staying close to her and when she wandered off, making a point of calling her back and giving her pets (which she loves more than treats).
At the dog park, we did the same thing, we'd walk with her and if she went to far away, we'd do a simple recall or "this way" to remind her to stay close. Lots of pets and treats if possible to reinforce it.
Now she's 9 and will stay close at the dog park and can be let off leash in the back yard as long as someone is near by. In fact, the other day her collar popped loose and she was completely off leash on the sidewalk in front of our house. She realized she was free, sauntered a few steps away and then came back to me so I could reattach her leash. 5 years ago, she'd have been in the next county. It just takes time, training, and lots of trust.
posted by teleri025 at 8:12 AM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
At the dog park, we did the same thing, we'd walk with her and if she went to far away, we'd do a simple recall or "this way" to remind her to stay close. Lots of pets and treats if possible to reinforce it.
Now she's 9 and will stay close at the dog park and can be let off leash in the back yard as long as someone is near by. In fact, the other day her collar popped loose and she was completely off leash on the sidewalk in front of our house. She realized she was free, sauntered a few steps away and then came back to me so I could reattach her leash. 5 years ago, she'd have been in the next county. It just takes time, training, and lots of trust.
posted by teleri025 at 8:12 AM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
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1. Can you build an angled fence or barricade at the top of the rock wall? If it is angled into the yard it won't have to be too big or block neighbors views if that is a concern. Or
2. Use your existing fence and add on to build a run that can be completely secure (with shade, water, etc.).
I know neither of these are perfect solutions. I've had labs and poodles and both breeds are much more trainable for recall, but even so, I never let them out without supervision and I always kept them leashed outside of fenced areas. But I am very cautious so take that into account.
posted by agatha_magatha at 9:22 AM on August 20, 2023 [9 favorites]