Help finding some sort of way to sit and use a keyboard
August 18, 2023 8:08 AM Subscribe
I think the most likely suggestion will be some sort of chair, but I can't rule out other possibilities. I have stood while using for a computer for a long time for snowflake reasons within, and while thus far there have been no complications, I don't want to rule out that long term something could come up...I'd rather have options before that happens
I've stood while using computers for quite a long time (10+ years, though there was a 3-4 year period in there where I didn't use computers very much). Thus far it's been fine, great even, but a friend scared me a bit recently with a story of his brother getting varicose veins from standing...now, his brother get them when he was much younger than I am, after standing for much less time...but still, I know it's a risk, and one I should take seriously.
I try to do all of the right things while standing, namely, moving around regularly, not being super static, etc. I'm sure there is more I can do (and I'd welcome resources for sure!), but on the whole I mean I am trying.
The reason I stand (though honestly at this point I'm used to it and like it) is that it is impossible for me to sit ergonomically in a regular chair. Please believe me on this. It's not a matter of getting a herman miller or whatever. The situation is an anatomical one. If you look at an ergonomic reference of how one should sit in a chair, you sit like this...I just found this random reference, but they're all similar: https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/ergonomics/sitting/sitting_position.html
so, here's the key: if I set up my desk like this, the table and keyboard would be in my thigh. this is why I had to stand in the first place. if I "sit properly", what happens is that what they call the elbow angle in that chart (the angle between your upper arm and your forearm) has to be a bit constricted--maybe to a 70 degree angle or so? it's hard to say exactly because it's been a very long time since I've tried (I should do that, I just don't really have a good setup at the moment to actually try sitting, I tried a long time ago and sort of gave up when I found standing worked really well)
so I've just stood, and gotten used to standing (I like it!)...but I'm aware that there are long term health risks, and that at some point I may be forced not to stand while working. if that's the case I need to have a plan, because it'd be really shitty to lose my career to something like that! (I am a programmer)
I should also say that while my RSI is under control (I finally found a decent PT and am feeling the most confident I ever have!), the reason in the first place I needed to be really careful with my setup was RSI...as part of that, I use a kinesis freestyle 2 in an 80 degree position, as one of my issues at the time was elbow issues made worse by pronation. this keyboard is great, but of course it also adds a bit of height that my hands need to reach.
money is no object when thinking about solutions to this. ok well it's an object inasmuch as I probably can't like, pay some team of mechanical engineers to make something for me (what would they even make?!), but my point is that if there is some solution that seems ideal but is a bit expensive, I'd be down to exploring and definitely want to hear about it.
in the past I've seen chairs where you sort of kneel on them such that your knees are on it, and your thighs are at an angle...I think this would work, though I don't know 1. if they are ok for your body (knees etc?) 2. if there are sufficiently adjustable ones (I don't even know what they are called or what is out there, I just remember seeing a fancier one at someone's house). I actually bought one but the only one that was available in-country wasn't very adjustable, so it was a non-starter. but it seems like one avenue? I bet somewhere in the world there have to be good ones...
in general my mind has mainly gone to sitting solutions that would allow me to sit "at an angle," but I don't know 1. what those are 2. if they'd healthy long term etc etc
it's a very frustrating problem. I wish I could just stand forever! but I'm afraid that at some point I will get foot or leg circulation problems or something and then I won't be able to, and I need to be prepared
thank you for any help or ideas!
I've stood while using computers for quite a long time (10+ years, though there was a 3-4 year period in there where I didn't use computers very much). Thus far it's been fine, great even, but a friend scared me a bit recently with a story of his brother getting varicose veins from standing...now, his brother get them when he was much younger than I am, after standing for much less time...but still, I know it's a risk, and one I should take seriously.
I try to do all of the right things while standing, namely, moving around regularly, not being super static, etc. I'm sure there is more I can do (and I'd welcome resources for sure!), but on the whole I mean I am trying.
The reason I stand (though honestly at this point I'm used to it and like it) is that it is impossible for me to sit ergonomically in a regular chair. Please believe me on this. It's not a matter of getting a herman miller or whatever. The situation is an anatomical one. If you look at an ergonomic reference of how one should sit in a chair, you sit like this...I just found this random reference, but they're all similar: https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/ergonomics/sitting/sitting_position.html
so, here's the key: if I set up my desk like this, the table and keyboard would be in my thigh. this is why I had to stand in the first place. if I "sit properly", what happens is that what they call the elbow angle in that chart (the angle between your upper arm and your forearm) has to be a bit constricted--maybe to a 70 degree angle or so? it's hard to say exactly because it's been a very long time since I've tried (I should do that, I just don't really have a good setup at the moment to actually try sitting, I tried a long time ago and sort of gave up when I found standing worked really well)
so I've just stood, and gotten used to standing (I like it!)...but I'm aware that there are long term health risks, and that at some point I may be forced not to stand while working. if that's the case I need to have a plan, because it'd be really shitty to lose my career to something like that! (I am a programmer)
I should also say that while my RSI is under control (I finally found a decent PT and am feeling the most confident I ever have!), the reason in the first place I needed to be really careful with my setup was RSI...as part of that, I use a kinesis freestyle 2 in an 80 degree position, as one of my issues at the time was elbow issues made worse by pronation. this keyboard is great, but of course it also adds a bit of height that my hands need to reach.
money is no object when thinking about solutions to this. ok well it's an object inasmuch as I probably can't like, pay some team of mechanical engineers to make something for me (what would they even make?!), but my point is that if there is some solution that seems ideal but is a bit expensive, I'd be down to exploring and definitely want to hear about it.
in the past I've seen chairs where you sort of kneel on them such that your knees are on it, and your thighs are at an angle...I think this would work, though I don't know 1. if they are ok for your body (knees etc?) 2. if there are sufficiently adjustable ones (I don't even know what they are called or what is out there, I just remember seeing a fancier one at someone's house). I actually bought one but the only one that was available in-country wasn't very adjustable, so it was a non-starter. but it seems like one avenue? I bet somewhere in the world there have to be good ones...
in general my mind has mainly gone to sitting solutions that would allow me to sit "at an angle," but I don't know 1. what those are 2. if they'd healthy long term etc etc
it's a very frustrating problem. I wish I could just stand forever! but I'm afraid that at some point I will get foot or leg circulation problems or something and then I won't be able to, and I need to be prepared
thank you for any help or ideas!
From the photo of the keyboard, it looks like you're basically saying that everything below the A key in that photo needs to be below "desk" level, because the line between the S and D keys is where the center line of your forearms would be if your elbows were at a 90º angle to vertical. If so, what you need is a way to mount each half of the keyboard separately.
There was a guy on the Keyboardio forums who clamped the halves of his keyboard onto the armrests of his chair. Assuming you have this tenting kit I were you I'd be looking at alternate ways to mount the plates in your tenting kit underneath the armrests of your chair. You might be able to fabricate a reinforcing plate, (or even perhaps just a whole new mounting plate) but the specifics will depend on the design of the armrests of the chair that works best for you otherwise.
My other idea is basically a VESA display mount on a pole, allowing you to clamp a shelf onto the same pole and put the keyboard on that. But you're still going to run into the same problem with that keyboard, where properly aligning the keys you really need most of the time so that your forearms and wrists are level would result in a significant amount of keyboard below the desk line, encroaching on your thighs. I might think about making a new metal plate that allows you to relocate where the mounting plate attaches, like so:
Instead of screwing the tenting kit's mounting plate into the keyboard, you'd screw it into your new plate, and screw that plate into the keyboard. You'd need some countersunk screws or maybe a two-plates-and-spacers idea to make it work, but that way you could "hang" part of the keyboard off the edge of the tenting setup, and then use any old narrow keyboard tray to support the middle.
posted by fedward at 9:16 AM on August 18, 2023
There was a guy on the Keyboardio forums who clamped the halves of his keyboard onto the armrests of his chair. Assuming you have this tenting kit I were you I'd be looking at alternate ways to mount the plates in your tenting kit underneath the armrests of your chair. You might be able to fabricate a reinforcing plate, (or even perhaps just a whole new mounting plate) but the specifics will depend on the design of the armrests of the chair that works best for you otherwise.
My other idea is basically a VESA display mount on a pole, allowing you to clamp a shelf onto the same pole and put the keyboard on that. But you're still going to run into the same problem with that keyboard, where properly aligning the keys you really need most of the time so that your forearms and wrists are level would result in a significant amount of keyboard below the desk line, encroaching on your thighs. I might think about making a new metal plate that allows you to relocate where the mounting plate attaches, like so:
| |
||___________||
| |
Instead of screwing the tenting kit's mounting plate into the keyboard, you'd screw it into your new plate, and screw that plate into the keyboard. You'd need some countersunk screws or maybe a two-plates-and-spacers idea to make it work, but that way you could "hang" part of the keyboard off the edge of the tenting setup, and then use any old narrow keyboard tray to support the middle.
posted by fedward at 9:16 AM on August 18, 2023
disclosure: I used to sell retail office furniture.
I test-drove a Vilno chair, and I really liked the rocking aspect. Seemed to involve a lot more core muscles, and I almost instinctively sat up straight instead of slouching.
HÅG used to make a very nice kneeling chair on a pneumatic star base, like a traditional office task chair. I don't see it in their current offerings, and all that I have been able to find in a similar style are cheap-looking models from brands like Office Star or BOSS, or Flash, etc. Probably not the best build quality or comfort. There are a bunch of designs similar to this, but since they don't have the built-in swivel, as the Office Star chair above, or a traditional task chair would, if your tasks require you to pivot frequently, you're fighting the casters the entire time, and it's kind of a crap experience.
There are a bunch of "stand, but rest your butt on this not-quite-a-stool" options like Pivot, from Lorell, or Perch, from HON. These work great with standing or sit/stand workstations. Customers either absolutely loved this option, or hated it. There was no middle ground.
posted by xedrik at 9:21 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I test-drove a Vilno chair, and I really liked the rocking aspect. Seemed to involve a lot more core muscles, and I almost instinctively sat up straight instead of slouching.
HÅG used to make a very nice kneeling chair on a pneumatic star base, like a traditional office task chair. I don't see it in their current offerings, and all that I have been able to find in a similar style are cheap-looking models from brands like Office Star or BOSS, or Flash, etc. Probably not the best build quality or comfort. There are a bunch of designs similar to this, but since they don't have the built-in swivel, as the Office Star chair above, or a traditional task chair would, if your tasks require you to pivot frequently, you're fighting the casters the entire time, and it's kind of a crap experience.
There are a bunch of "stand, but rest your butt on this not-quite-a-stool" options like Pivot, from Lorell, or Perch, from HON. These work great with standing or sit/stand workstations. Customers either absolutely loved this option, or hated it. There was no middle ground.
posted by xedrik at 9:21 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not the answer you are looking for but I think your primary approach should be maintaining the ability to work while standing. That means a daily program of maintaining your vascular and skeletal health, and your flexibility.
It also means taking your breaks and changing your position the same way you are supposed to if you work sitting down. As someone who works standing just walking away from the keyboard isn't going to do enough for the circulation in your lower extremities. You need to be lying down or sprawling, or crawling multiple times a day. I recommend a yoga mat on the floor. You can combine your three minutes of break every half hour with getting down on the mat and doing flexibility exercises.
It goes without saying that you are wearing the best damn protective shoes you can get so that your feet will maintain their health as long as possible. It's not just vascular veins you need to plan for, but also flat feet and osteoarthritis.
You know those unlikely stock photographs they constantly show of a highly attractive young woman lying on her belly using a lap top while she waves her feet in the air? The set up to do that without stressing your wrists and arms and shoulders would likely involve some complexity, because you'd want both the keyboard and the monitor to be lower than your chest, but before you can even consider working prone you need to develop the flexibility to get into that kind of an alternative position and stay in in comfortably - so again, start working with your body now.
When it comes to kneeling chairs they are very much not alike, and the manufacturers are all going to tell you that every model they sell is extremely safe and good for your body. So you need to be looking at what your physiotherapist think of the different chairs. It's no good us recommending Ikea's Spydårpratzfäl kneeling chair in turquoise, orange, or ear wax yellow, because what's good for one body will put stress on a weak point of another person, and you are planning for the future anyway. If you buy now your chair may end up getting left behind in a move, and if you buy later Spydårpratzfäl is unlikely to be still available unless it has been significantly cheapened so that our recommendations are no longer valid.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:28 AM on August 18, 2023
It also means taking your breaks and changing your position the same way you are supposed to if you work sitting down. As someone who works standing just walking away from the keyboard isn't going to do enough for the circulation in your lower extremities. You need to be lying down or sprawling, or crawling multiple times a day. I recommend a yoga mat on the floor. You can combine your three minutes of break every half hour with getting down on the mat and doing flexibility exercises.
It goes without saying that you are wearing the best damn protective shoes you can get so that your feet will maintain their health as long as possible. It's not just vascular veins you need to plan for, but also flat feet and osteoarthritis.
You know those unlikely stock photographs they constantly show of a highly attractive young woman lying on her belly using a lap top while she waves her feet in the air? The set up to do that without stressing your wrists and arms and shoulders would likely involve some complexity, because you'd want both the keyboard and the monitor to be lower than your chest, but before you can even consider working prone you need to develop the flexibility to get into that kind of an alternative position and stay in in comfortably - so again, start working with your body now.
When it comes to kneeling chairs they are very much not alike, and the manufacturers are all going to tell you that every model they sell is extremely safe and good for your body. So you need to be looking at what your physiotherapist think of the different chairs. It's no good us recommending Ikea's Spydårpratzfäl kneeling chair in turquoise, orange, or ear wax yellow, because what's good for one body will put stress on a weak point of another person, and you are planning for the future anyway. If you buy now your chair may end up getting left behind in a move, and if you buy later Spydårpratzfäl is unlikely to be still available unless it has been significantly cheapened so that our recommendations are no longer valid.
posted by Jane the Brown at 9:28 AM on August 18, 2023
I built myself a standing desk some years back. It isn't the kind that can be moved up and down -- the desktop is permanently fixed at 40" off the floor.
But I don't want to stand all the time. One solution would be what they call a drafting stool, but those do not provide a lot of ergonomic support. So what I bought was a Steelcase Leap chair, but the extra-tall drafting chair version of it.
The Steelcase Leap is the single most ergonomically perfect chair I've ever experienced. It's just about the only desk chair I've been able to sit in for long periods with no discomfort whatsoever. They aren't cheap -- think $750-$800, depending on sales, discounts, etc. -- but they are comfortable, they come with tons of adjustments for your individual physiology, and they're built like tanks. Mine is almost 10 years old, and other than some wear on the upholstery, it's good as new. The price tag is intimidating, but I figure that I spend more time using this chair than any other piece of furniture in my house, including my bed, so it's a worthwhile investment.
I added a footrest to my desk so that when I'm in the chair, my feet aren't just dangling. The drafting chair has a ring-shape footrest, but I have to bend my legs to use it, which causes the front edge of the seat to dig into my thighs slightly. The footrest under the desk lets me put my feet out in front of me at a comfortable height.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:24 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
But I don't want to stand all the time. One solution would be what they call a drafting stool, but those do not provide a lot of ergonomic support. So what I bought was a Steelcase Leap chair, but the extra-tall drafting chair version of it.
The Steelcase Leap is the single most ergonomically perfect chair I've ever experienced. It's just about the only desk chair I've been able to sit in for long periods with no discomfort whatsoever. They aren't cheap -- think $750-$800, depending on sales, discounts, etc. -- but they are comfortable, they come with tons of adjustments for your individual physiology, and they're built like tanks. Mine is almost 10 years old, and other than some wear on the upholstery, it's good as new. The price tag is intimidating, but I figure that I spend more time using this chair than any other piece of furniture in my house, including my bed, so it's a worthwhile investment.
I added a footrest to my desk so that when I'm in the chair, my feet aren't just dangling. The drafting chair has a ring-shape footrest, but I have to bend my legs to use it, which causes the front edge of the seat to dig into my thighs slightly. The footrest under the desk lets me put my feet out in front of me at a comfortable height.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:24 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like Artiface Eternity, I use a standing desk at full height with a very fancy stool. Mine is a little less fancy, the Steelcase Amia Stool. I recently learned that you can get stool conversion kits, if you can find a good quality donor chair. This lets me easily switch from standing to perched or sitting really easily. One note, if you love perching, don't replace your chair wheels for rollerblade wheels on a wood floor, it will roll out from under you with almost no resistance. This is why I now have a very nice rug in my office.
posted by advicepig at 12:59 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by advicepig at 12:59 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe the question should be “how can I do my job without using a keyboard and a monitor at the same time”, since this seems to be your obstacle to sitting.
If your job has many video calls, perhaps you can switch to audio calls and take notes on paper. This allows a wide variety of seating positions.
There are software options out there that allow you to dictate text and control screens with your voice. They work better for some jobs than others. Because you are sighted and have use of your hands, you could combine touch screens with dictation to great effect.
posted by shock muppet at 2:13 PM on August 18, 2023
If your job has many video calls, perhaps you can switch to audio calls and take notes on paper. This allows a wide variety of seating positions.
There are software options out there that allow you to dictate text and control screens with your voice. They work better for some jobs than others. Because you are sighted and have use of your hands, you could combine touch screens with dictation to great effect.
posted by shock muppet at 2:13 PM on August 18, 2023
The Vilno chair looks pretty similar to some Varier kneeling chairs.
I use a Varier Thatsit Balans and absolutely love it. I'm a programmer and have used it as my daily work chair for over 8 years now. It really improved some issues I was having with tightness in my hips and some related lower back issues. I am prone to knee problems, but this chair didn't aggravate them. No knee pain or instability, no circulation issues either.
Disclaimer: everyone's body is different, YMMV, etc. It's a good idea to try things out in person if you can. Otherwise, make sure you're ordering from somewhere that has a good return policy.
My thoughts on the Thatsit balans:
This was the most adjustable option I could find when it comes to rocking kneeling chairs. Most of them are kind of one-size-fits-all, but this one lets you change the height of the knee pads and, the height of the backrest, and the angle of the backrest relative to the seat. The seat height above the floor/relative to your desk is not adjustable, though. It works well for me, but it may not be ideal for everyone.
Since you're concerned about the angle of your elbow you may need to adjust the height of your desk a bit. If money is no object, you could get one of those nifty desks with a motor to move the desktop up and down. One of my coworkers has one with configurable sitting and standing heights to switch between. That would also let you continue standing part-time instead of totally converting your work area for sitting.
Sitting geometry: The seat on the Varier balans isn't angled too steeply, which I think makes it easier on the knees. The effect is kind of like sitting in a kneeling shape, but not with a kneeling weight distribution. The "knee" supports are really under my shins, not my knees, which helps. When I'm sitting in a more forward-leaning angle, there's some pressure on my shins, but I'd say that most of my weight is still being supported by the seat. Sitting upright, my weight is entirely on my butt.
Seat angles have been problematic for me with some of the other kneeling chairs that I've tried. I dislike this folding style of adjustment). A steeper seat angle meant my butt started to slide down the seat, which put more weight on my knees and got uncomfortable fast (slippery upholstery on one of those other chairs also contributed to the problem--you want fabric here, not leather/vinyl).
The rocking is definitely nice--I don't usually rock back and forth like you would a rocking chair, but I do shift between different angles to change up my posture. The backrest is unusual, but I like it. I think having some back support makes it more comfortable for all-day use, and it also makes a wider range of postures comfortable.
Thoughts on other chairs I've tried:
A while back I tried one of these saddle-shaped stools. Sitting in this, all of my weight was resting on the boniest part of my butt. It was not comfortable, and I did not use it for long. I have seen a number of positive reviews for this style of chair, so maybe it's one of those things that your body just needs time to adjust to, or maybe this particular model just doesn't have good padding? I personally didn't like it, but it is an option that leaves your thighs angled down more than a typical chair (these also tend to be taller than your average office chair, so I needed to raise the height of my desk while trying it out).
At my old office, there was a normal-looking office chair with a seat that could be angled forwards. It made you feel like you were sliding out of the seat, and you couldn't use your legs to counter the sliding because the chair would just roll backwards.
This chair's height was not adjustable. The lever that looked like it should adjust the height triggered the tilting instead. Surprise!
It was the most upsetting chair I have ever sat on, would not recommend under any circumstances.
posted by threecolorable at 3:26 PM on August 18, 2023
I use a Varier Thatsit Balans and absolutely love it. I'm a programmer and have used it as my daily work chair for over 8 years now. It really improved some issues I was having with tightness in my hips and some related lower back issues. I am prone to knee problems, but this chair didn't aggravate them. No knee pain or instability, no circulation issues either.
Disclaimer: everyone's body is different, YMMV, etc. It's a good idea to try things out in person if you can. Otherwise, make sure you're ordering from somewhere that has a good return policy.
My thoughts on the Thatsit balans:
This was the most adjustable option I could find when it comes to rocking kneeling chairs. Most of them are kind of one-size-fits-all, but this one lets you change the height of the knee pads and, the height of the backrest, and the angle of the backrest relative to the seat. The seat height above the floor/relative to your desk is not adjustable, though. It works well for me, but it may not be ideal for everyone.
Since you're concerned about the angle of your elbow you may need to adjust the height of your desk a bit. If money is no object, you could get one of those nifty desks with a motor to move the desktop up and down. One of my coworkers has one with configurable sitting and standing heights to switch between. That would also let you continue standing part-time instead of totally converting your work area for sitting.
Sitting geometry: The seat on the Varier balans isn't angled too steeply, which I think makes it easier on the knees. The effect is kind of like sitting in a kneeling shape, but not with a kneeling weight distribution. The "knee" supports are really under my shins, not my knees, which helps. When I'm sitting in a more forward-leaning angle, there's some pressure on my shins, but I'd say that most of my weight is still being supported by the seat. Sitting upright, my weight is entirely on my butt.
Seat angles have been problematic for me with some of the other kneeling chairs that I've tried. I dislike this folding style of adjustment). A steeper seat angle meant my butt started to slide down the seat, which put more weight on my knees and got uncomfortable fast (slippery upholstery on one of those other chairs also contributed to the problem--you want fabric here, not leather/vinyl).
The rocking is definitely nice--I don't usually rock back and forth like you would a rocking chair, but I do shift between different angles to change up my posture. The backrest is unusual, but I like it. I think having some back support makes it more comfortable for all-day use, and it also makes a wider range of postures comfortable.
Thoughts on other chairs I've tried:
A while back I tried one of these saddle-shaped stools. Sitting in this, all of my weight was resting on the boniest part of my butt. It was not comfortable, and I did not use it for long. I have seen a number of positive reviews for this style of chair, so maybe it's one of those things that your body just needs time to adjust to, or maybe this particular model just doesn't have good padding? I personally didn't like it, but it is an option that leaves your thighs angled down more than a typical chair (these also tend to be taller than your average office chair, so I needed to raise the height of my desk while trying it out).
At my old office, there was a normal-looking office chair with a seat that could be angled forwards. It made you feel like you were sliding out of the seat, and you couldn't use your legs to counter the sliding because the chair would just roll backwards.
This chair's height was not adjustable. The lever that looked like it should adjust the height triggered the tilting instead. Surprise!
It was the most upsetting chair I have ever sat on, would not recommend under any circumstances.
posted by threecolorable at 3:26 PM on August 18, 2023
HÅG Capisco
Salli Saddle Chair
Humantool Saddle Seat
Ergo Impact LeanRite
It seems that recs for active seating, standing desk seating, and ergonomic desk stools may overlap with your needs.
posted by oceano at 1:17 PM on August 19, 2023
Salli Saddle Chair
Humantool Saddle Seat
Ergo Impact LeanRite
It seems that recs for active seating, standing desk seating, and ergonomic desk stools may overlap with your needs.
posted by oceano at 1:17 PM on August 19, 2023
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posted by staggernation at 8:25 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]