loud upstairs neighbors
August 11, 2023 2:00 AM Subscribe
About a month ago, new neighbors moved in upstairs. Since then, there’s been extremely loud pounding, slamming, and banging noises that shake my apartment at all hours of the day and night, often accompanied by violent and piercing screaming (from an adult as well as a toddler). Problem is, I *just* resigned a year-long lease. Looking for suggestions/advice on how to proceed.
To underscore how serious a quality of life issue this is, I’m writing this question at 4:55 in the morning after getting almost no sleep tonight; the pounding and slamming went on continuously from midnight till 2, then again for a few minutes at 3 (waking me and my dog up), and then again starting at 4 (waking us up again). It hasn’t let up since and has only managed to get louder, somehow. This is on top of over an hour of continuous pounding in the middle of the work day today (and most days).
I think the pounding sounds are maybe coming from the toddler running around? Shaking their crib? Jumping up and down? But honestly what it sounds like is someone dropping a bowling ball on the ground over and over.
Moving out doesn’t seem like an option anytime soon (without breaking 11 months of the year-long lease), so I’d love advice on remediation. I am reluctant to complain to or about a neighbor, but I don’t know what else to do. Here are a few obstacles:
1) I don’t think it’s right for me to request that a toddler not be allowed to run around or limit whatever they’ve been doing that sounds so loud in the unit below, but I’m not sure what else the solution to the noise issue might be. I can try to wear earplugs, but my dog?
2) I believe there is one adult in the unit, and she frightens me, to be honest. At least once every couple days (and sometimes at night), she’s prone to loud rants of swear-laden screaming (often involving shouting “shut the fuck up” on repeat). One time the screaming got so bad while a guy was here doing maintenance in my unit - he said to me “damn, sounds like someone’s gonna die up there” and stopped what he was doing to go up and check if things were okay. I heard her chewing him out, although afterwards the screaming dropped in frequency. I’m not comfortable talking to her myself.
(For what it’s worth, the screaming has also given me cause for concern for the child’s welfare, and I’ve even thought about contacting child services, but I know that is a drastic move that has the potential to do more harm than good for the child and I am taking that option very seriously.)
Should I talk to building management? Any advice on how to frame it? Should I suck it up and learn to live with it? Or do I have no other option but to try to leave?
To underscore how serious a quality of life issue this is, I’m writing this question at 4:55 in the morning after getting almost no sleep tonight; the pounding and slamming went on continuously from midnight till 2, then again for a few minutes at 3 (waking me and my dog up), and then again starting at 4 (waking us up again). It hasn’t let up since and has only managed to get louder, somehow. This is on top of over an hour of continuous pounding in the middle of the work day today (and most days).
I think the pounding sounds are maybe coming from the toddler running around? Shaking their crib? Jumping up and down? But honestly what it sounds like is someone dropping a bowling ball on the ground over and over.
Moving out doesn’t seem like an option anytime soon (without breaking 11 months of the year-long lease), so I’d love advice on remediation. I am reluctant to complain to or about a neighbor, but I don’t know what else to do. Here are a few obstacles:
1) I don’t think it’s right for me to request that a toddler not be allowed to run around or limit whatever they’ve been doing that sounds so loud in the unit below, but I’m not sure what else the solution to the noise issue might be. I can try to wear earplugs, but my dog?
2) I believe there is one adult in the unit, and she frightens me, to be honest. At least once every couple days (and sometimes at night), she’s prone to loud rants of swear-laden screaming (often involving shouting “shut the fuck up” on repeat). One time the screaming got so bad while a guy was here doing maintenance in my unit - he said to me “damn, sounds like someone’s gonna die up there” and stopped what he was doing to go up and check if things were okay. I heard her chewing him out, although afterwards the screaming dropped in frequency. I’m not comfortable talking to her myself.
(For what it’s worth, the screaming has also given me cause for concern for the child’s welfare, and I’ve even thought about contacting child services, but I know that is a drastic move that has the potential to do more harm than good for the child and I am taking that option very seriously.)
Should I talk to building management? Any advice on how to frame it? Should I suck it up and learn to live with it? Or do I have no other option but to try to leave?
I have no advice on how to frame it, but talk to your building management. This is part of what you pay them for. I mean, hell, the maintenance worker said “it sounds like someone is getting killed up there” - they are almost assuredly already aware of the situation and trying to figure out how they’re going to proceed.
posted by joycehealy at 4:11 AM on August 11, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by joycehealy at 4:11 AM on August 11, 2023 [19 favorites]
This sounds awful. You should definitely take steps for your own welfare.
Check your lease - there should be a clause in there about noise levels, quality of life, or disruption to neighbors. Then call a local tenants union or tenants advocacy group. They may have a script you can follow that will help you word your complaint. And tell them that, given what you have heard, you are afraid of your neighbor.
Start recording sounds and keep a log of disruptions to sleep, etc., with dates and times.
It also sounds like you’re rightly concerned for the welfare of that child. I know this is tricky, depending on your perceived state of your local child welfare services, but calling the police or local child welfare services asking them to perform a “wellness check” is an option too. You have a right to be comfortable in your home. This sounds bad, and there is a decent chance you can get out of your lease without penalty. Good luck.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:21 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Check your lease - there should be a clause in there about noise levels, quality of life, or disruption to neighbors. Then call a local tenants union or tenants advocacy group. They may have a script you can follow that will help you word your complaint. And tell them that, given what you have heard, you are afraid of your neighbor.
Start recording sounds and keep a log of disruptions to sleep, etc., with dates and times.
It also sounds like you’re rightly concerned for the welfare of that child. I know this is tricky, depending on your perceived state of your local child welfare services, but calling the police or local child welfare services asking them to perform a “wellness check” is an option too. You have a right to be comfortable in your home. This sounds bad, and there is a decent chance you can get out of your lease without penalty. Good luck.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:21 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's no remediation you can do short of massive, costly renovation.
posted by flimflam at 4:32 AM on August 11, 2023
posted by flimflam at 4:32 AM on August 11, 2023
Please be very very careful about police wellness checks. My partner was recently the target of one due to a miscommunication with a health services agency and it was traumatic and harmful.
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:45 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:45 AM on August 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Step one: buy noise cancelling headphones. During the pandemic the building next door to us was renovated, they really helped.
Step two: start looking for other places. The people upstairs sound like they have a chaotic life and they might flame out before your lease is up, but they might not. I recommend getting up to speed on the market, so you can find somewhere.
Step three: speak to the local council or municipal authority about antisocial behaviour. However, as cautioned above, this is not a fun process and you might find impacts you and the person being loud more than you want.
Step four: get out of the space. Perhaps you can go camping, housesitting, visit friends, or join a monastery.
Good luck! Fingers crossed for you.
posted by The River Ivel at 5:00 AM on August 11, 2023
Step two: start looking for other places. The people upstairs sound like they have a chaotic life and they might flame out before your lease is up, but they might not. I recommend getting up to speed on the market, so you can find somewhere.
Step three: speak to the local council or municipal authority about antisocial behaviour. However, as cautioned above, this is not a fun process and you might find impacts you and the person being loud more than you want.
Step four: get out of the space. Perhaps you can go camping, housesitting, visit friends, or join a monastery.
Good luck! Fingers crossed for you.
posted by The River Ivel at 5:00 AM on August 11, 2023
I have no advice on how to frame it, but talk to your building management.
Seconding this. If a maintenance guy was remarking on it when he was there, it's definitely something they may already know about, especially if he went up to talk to them and got chewed out. I guarantee that HE said something to his boss, even if only because he was telling them "Look, just in case the lady with the kid in Apt. 2-E says anything, here's MY side of the story...."
If you're looking for a template script, here's what I'd do:
"Hi - I hope you can help with this. There's an increasingly serious problem with noise from the apartment above; I've been meaning to speak with them directly, but [Maintenance guy's name] tried speaking with them himself while he was working on my apartment on [date] and the tenant didn't seem willing to cooperate and even got abusive towards him. So I'm a little too uneasy introducing myself in case it makes me a target. But the noise is really getting to be a problem; here's a recording I made of the sound at [x time] on [x date] and another one from [x time] on [x date]. Here's a log I made of what the noises were like just this week. ...I know this is a complicated situation, so if you also have any suggestions for something I can do, I'm happy to hear about them. I'm already trying [thing] and [thing]. Please let me know if you have any other questions about the situation."
You know? You're polite, you're willing to work WITH them, you're also willing to do something on your end if that would help (i.e., if they told you simply repositioning your bed in the bedroom would help somehow, because of a weird acoustic fluke, you'd give it a try instead of saying something like "no, that would throw off the chi of the apartment" or whatever). It's more like, you're asking them to help you and work WITH you instead of demanding they do everything to fix it FOR you.
You'll notice I'm also leaving out any comment on the neighbor's aggression towards other people and to her child. Technically that's a separate issue (although they're related), and technically the noise is the only one that directly affects you right now. They'll learn about the aggression elsewhere; and the way you've framed it, you're also trying to avoid MAKING that part of your problem.
Of course, if you somehow run afoul of your neighbor, then that would be a much-more urgent message to your building management about how "the situation has escalated, my neighbor said [xyz] on [date]. I urgently need your help."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:24 AM on August 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
Seconding this. If a maintenance guy was remarking on it when he was there, it's definitely something they may already know about, especially if he went up to talk to them and got chewed out. I guarantee that HE said something to his boss, even if only because he was telling them "Look, just in case the lady with the kid in Apt. 2-E says anything, here's MY side of the story...."
If you're looking for a template script, here's what I'd do:
"Hi - I hope you can help with this. There's an increasingly serious problem with noise from the apartment above; I've been meaning to speak with them directly, but [Maintenance guy's name] tried speaking with them himself while he was working on my apartment on [date] and the tenant didn't seem willing to cooperate and even got abusive towards him. So I'm a little too uneasy introducing myself in case it makes me a target. But the noise is really getting to be a problem; here's a recording I made of the sound at [x time] on [x date] and another one from [x time] on [x date]. Here's a log I made of what the noises were like just this week. ...I know this is a complicated situation, so if you also have any suggestions for something I can do, I'm happy to hear about them. I'm already trying [thing] and [thing]. Please let me know if you have any other questions about the situation."
You know? You're polite, you're willing to work WITH them, you're also willing to do something on your end if that would help (i.e., if they told you simply repositioning your bed in the bedroom would help somehow, because of a weird acoustic fluke, you'd give it a try instead of saying something like "no, that would throw off the chi of the apartment" or whatever). It's more like, you're asking them to help you and work WITH you instead of demanding they do everything to fix it FOR you.
You'll notice I'm also leaving out any comment on the neighbor's aggression towards other people and to her child. Technically that's a separate issue (although they're related), and technically the noise is the only one that directly affects you right now. They'll learn about the aggression elsewhere; and the way you've framed it, you're also trying to avoid MAKING that part of your problem.
Of course, if you somehow run afoul of your neighbor, then that would be a much-more urgent message to your building management about how "the situation has escalated, my neighbor said [xyz] on [date]. I urgently need your help."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:24 AM on August 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
Bad tenants that pay steady rent are a problem for landlords only as much as they drive good tenants who pay rent away. If you are in a supply-side market with housing, the landlord may do absolutely nothing because they can just flip your unit over and over, soaking up first/last with no compromise to their income. In fact they may be able to jack the rent on your unit every time it's flipped. If it's a renter's market you'll probably have it easy but I'm not sure there's a renter's market anywhere right now.
So, you have to make them perceive the bad tenant as somehow more of a problem than the turnover of good tenants. You might mention that it's a bad look on the building to have cops called for noise (you won't call the cops, of course) or to have child support services check up on them (you won't do that, either) but these are the kind of threats you can make that would rouse a landlord to some kind of action. After all, if they can flip your unit, they can flip the noisy unit, too. The problem is, they have a lease just like you do, and it's /hard/ to get tenants out if they're paying rent and minding the lease.
I'm just saying this is not an easy problem to solve, and it may be easier to find another unit in the same complex (at the same rate hopefully) or to move altogether than to get your asshole neighbours to stop being assholes.
But, yes, keep a log, update a notebook page everytime you hear something disturbing. Then start sharing that with management.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:04 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
So, you have to make them perceive the bad tenant as somehow more of a problem than the turnover of good tenants. You might mention that it's a bad look on the building to have cops called for noise (you won't call the cops, of course) or to have child support services check up on them (you won't do that, either) but these are the kind of threats you can make that would rouse a landlord to some kind of action. After all, if they can flip your unit, they can flip the noisy unit, too. The problem is, they have a lease just like you do, and it's /hard/ to get tenants out if they're paying rent and minding the lease.
I'm just saying this is not an easy problem to solve, and it may be easier to find another unit in the same complex (at the same rate hopefully) or to move altogether than to get your asshole neighbours to stop being assholes.
But, yes, keep a log, update a notebook page everytime you hear something disturbing. Then start sharing that with management.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:04 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hello, my past self!
Unfortunately you need to move.
For the upstairs neighbors in my question, I talked to them a few times, and they plainly just didn't believe (or care) that it was as loud as I said, and I was not going to bother the landlord when we were paying something like 70% of the market rent. So after a while, every time they made loud noises for an extended period of time, I did the ol' bang on the ceiling with a broom until the noises stopped. During the day we started playing extremely loud music to cover up the constant banging and jumping above us. Interestingly, they didn't like loud noises either, and were suddenly willing to take steps to mitigate their volume level. (Things like: NOT HAVING ADULTS PLAY TAG IN THE HOUSE. No I'm not joking.)
This was truly the only thing that worked, after months of trying to be reasonable and deal with this in an adult way. However if your person is aggressive and scary this is probably going to escalate things in a way that is unpleasant. So...I'd find a subletter and get out (or talk to your landlord about getting out of your new lease).
posted by goodbyewaffles at 6:21 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately you need to move.
For the upstairs neighbors in my question, I talked to them a few times, and they plainly just didn't believe (or care) that it was as loud as I said, and I was not going to bother the landlord when we were paying something like 70% of the market rent. So after a while, every time they made loud noises for an extended period of time, I did the ol' bang on the ceiling with a broom until the noises stopped. During the day we started playing extremely loud music to cover up the constant banging and jumping above us. Interestingly, they didn't like loud noises either, and were suddenly willing to take steps to mitigate their volume level. (Things like: NOT HAVING ADULTS PLAY TAG IN THE HOUSE. No I'm not joking.)
This was truly the only thing that worked, after months of trying to be reasonable and deal with this in an adult way. However if your person is aggressive and scary this is probably going to escalate things in a way that is unpleasant. So...I'd find a subletter and get out (or talk to your landlord about getting out of your new lease).
posted by goodbyewaffles at 6:21 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Coming back in to add some more general advice re the "working with management" angle.
I spent a good part of last year in very regular contact with my building manager about a different issue; we had a big problem with rats in the back yard and in the walls, and about once a month I was reaching out to my manager about the issue. Some things that really helped were:
* I was always, ALWAYS polite. Firm when I needed to be, but polite. Early on we had one building manager who was phoning it in a little, and he would always just send an exterminator who similarly was phoning it in; I just stayed persistent. Fortunately we soon got a much more pro-active building manager who got a new exterminator who seemed similarly much more inclined to help.
* I always showed willingness to help them help me. Did they need someone on hand to show the exterminator where the problems were? Just send them to me! Did they need someone to let the exterminator into the back yard? I have a key because of my bike back there, I can do that! Did the super need to get my side of the story too? Sure, here's my number!
* If I saw the super or the manager in person by chance, I'd give them an informal update and comment on what they'd done ("oh, hey, Jose! I saw those traps you put in the back yard - thanks for that! It looks like you've caught a couple already - wow, you've caught nine in all? Awesome! Hey, by the way, the exterminator said that there was a hole in the fence between us and the next building's backyard, and he saw a rat hole in THEIR yard - who would I talk to about getting that fence fixed?").
* Since I was dealing with 3 separate people on this, I always mentioned what other people said or were doing when I saw them ("Hi Mr. Exterminator - so, the building manager just told me that they're going to be clearing out the trash in this corner of the yard here this weekend and cutting back the brush. Any tips I can pass on to them?").
All of that was received positively on all fronts. The exterminator said that I had been doing more to inform him of the problem than any other tenant had in any other building EVER, and that lead him to go back to the management company with a much more customized plan. As for my building manager - at one point I apologized for emailing her so much about it and she quickly reassured me that "this is what I'm here for, you're not a bother at all!" And as for the super - literally as I type this, he is out in the back yard and checking a bunch of traps and re-baiting them. The brush in the back is cut way back, and the fence around our back yard got reinforced with a double layer of chicken wire along the bottom. He is a lot more consistent about patrolling the back yard as well. And while it may be partly because the city is getting a better handle on the rat issue overall, the situation in this particular building has also greatly improved.
So that's the kind of approach that helps, I think - you're raising an issue as a tenant, but you're also wiling to help fix it WITH them, as opposed to just telling them there's a problem and expecting them to do all the legwork.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:28 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I spent a good part of last year in very regular contact with my building manager about a different issue; we had a big problem with rats in the back yard and in the walls, and about once a month I was reaching out to my manager about the issue. Some things that really helped were:
* I was always, ALWAYS polite. Firm when I needed to be, but polite. Early on we had one building manager who was phoning it in a little, and he would always just send an exterminator who similarly was phoning it in; I just stayed persistent. Fortunately we soon got a much more pro-active building manager who got a new exterminator who seemed similarly much more inclined to help.
* I always showed willingness to help them help me. Did they need someone on hand to show the exterminator where the problems were? Just send them to me! Did they need someone to let the exterminator into the back yard? I have a key because of my bike back there, I can do that! Did the super need to get my side of the story too? Sure, here's my number!
* If I saw the super or the manager in person by chance, I'd give them an informal update and comment on what they'd done ("oh, hey, Jose! I saw those traps you put in the back yard - thanks for that! It looks like you've caught a couple already - wow, you've caught nine in all? Awesome! Hey, by the way, the exterminator said that there was a hole in the fence between us and the next building's backyard, and he saw a rat hole in THEIR yard - who would I talk to about getting that fence fixed?").
* Since I was dealing with 3 separate people on this, I always mentioned what other people said or were doing when I saw them ("Hi Mr. Exterminator - so, the building manager just told me that they're going to be clearing out the trash in this corner of the yard here this weekend and cutting back the brush. Any tips I can pass on to them?").
All of that was received positively on all fronts. The exterminator said that I had been doing more to inform him of the problem than any other tenant had in any other building EVER, and that lead him to go back to the management company with a much more customized plan. As for my building manager - at one point I apologized for emailing her so much about it and she quickly reassured me that "this is what I'm here for, you're not a bother at all!" And as for the super - literally as I type this, he is out in the back yard and checking a bunch of traps and re-baiting them. The brush in the back is cut way back, and the fence around our back yard got reinforced with a double layer of chicken wire along the bottom. He is a lot more consistent about patrolling the back yard as well. And while it may be partly because the city is getting a better handle on the rat issue overall, the situation in this particular building has also greatly improved.
So that's the kind of approach that helps, I think - you're raising an issue as a tenant, but you're also wiling to help fix it WITH them, as opposed to just telling them there's a problem and expecting them to do all the legwork.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:28 AM on August 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
If she is yelling those words to the child repeatedly, I would think calling CPS is quite warranted. CPS gets a bad rap but in many cases they can help with preventive services and parent training. A very young child in that situation needs help urgently. (If however she's yelling at someone else, that's a separate situation).
posted by luckdragon at 9:28 AM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by luckdragon at 9:28 AM on August 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
Lots of very good advice here, especially the specifics about how to approach management. I agree that this person sounds aggressive and there's no point in you engaging with her directly. I'd also be worried about the vulnerable toddler.
In the very short term, a white noise machine (or even a large box fan) might help you and your pup at least get some sleep. There are even apps you can get for your phone, and if you crank them up, they can be quite effective, and should not bother your other neighbours.
posted by rpfields at 4:04 PM on August 11, 2023
In the very short term, a white noise machine (or even a large box fan) might help you and your pup at least get some sleep. There are even apps you can get for your phone, and if you crank them up, they can be quite effective, and should not bother your other neighbours.
posted by rpfields at 4:04 PM on August 11, 2023
I'm a mandated reporter with training on when to call Child Services and abuse vs. cultural differences (we're not encouraged to call for occasional disciplinary spanking if the home is otherwise organized and loving, for example) and I'm aware that removal can be problematic.
I would call on this situation with a quickness. What you are describing is way over the line of "parent is stressed and occasionally freaking out briefly"; this is seriously not-OK behavior. Regularly screaming profanities at a toddler is unacceptable and sleep deprivation (which sounds like it's happening here) is also a form of abuse. I think you absolutely should call Child Services as soon as possible. They'll want as much info as you can give, like approximate age of the kid, the unit they're in, etc. You can MeMail me if you want, I've had to file a couple of reports.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 6:06 PM on August 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
I would call on this situation with a quickness. What you are describing is way over the line of "parent is stressed and occasionally freaking out briefly"; this is seriously not-OK behavior. Regularly screaming profanities at a toddler is unacceptable and sleep deprivation (which sounds like it's happening here) is also a form of abuse. I think you absolutely should call Child Services as soon as possible. They'll want as much info as you can give, like approximate age of the kid, the unit they're in, etc. You can MeMail me if you want, I've had to file a couple of reports.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 6:06 PM on August 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm with goodbyewaffles. Time to leave. You aren't going to be able to solve any problems for that tenant. Call CPS on your way out.
posted by crw at 6:20 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by crw at 6:20 PM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
With many landlords I've had over the years, I've never had one that didn't discourage me from direct contact with a problem neighbor. The possibility of things going wrong is high, and good landlords see this kind of thing as their job, not yours. Definitely get property management involved, and keep the child protective services number handy.
posted by lhauser at 8:36 AM on August 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by lhauser at 8:36 AM on August 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
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posted by freethefeet at 2:29 AM on August 11, 2023 [1 favorite]