Tech support. India. Maybe more important to us than them. Culture?
July 27, 2023 2:51 PM Subscribe
I know to be nice. I know the goal is engagement/attention. Is there anything special about asking for support/possible bug fix from a large web software company in India vs. the US? What if customers are mainly female?
I'm good with tech support generally, like, really good. But this is a company with so-so documents that seem to be written by non-native speakers, based in Uttar Pradesh. The product we're using isn't the most prominently featured.
One specific area I wonder about is confidence vs. deference (I know the support contact might be female - still wondering).
The support request will be through a web form.
Any advice?
I'm good with tech support generally, like, really good. But this is a company with so-so documents that seem to be written by non-native speakers, based in Uttar Pradesh. The product we're using isn't the most prominently featured.
One specific area I wonder about is confidence vs. deference (I know the support contact might be female - still wondering).
The support request will be through a web form.
Any advice?
This post was deleted for the following reason: This has gone off the rails, and moderator request to discontinue was ignored. A bit more info. -- taz
My interpretation of your question, which I agree is not very clear, is:
If a customer is female, would it net them better results to have a more confident tone vs deferential in the support request? Does this answer change if the vendor support team is in the US vs India? Does it further change if the vendor support staff is male vs female?
And my answer is... Just be factual.
What's wrong with following the standard format for bug reporting?
Better yet, attach a screen recording of what you were doing. A video is worth a couple of paragraphs, and should help whether the support staff are in India or the US. If attachments are not allowed, you can write summary on the web form, wait for them to acknowledge/email you, then send the attachment after.
posted by tinydancer at 4:13 PM on July 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
If a customer is female, would it net them better results to have a more confident tone vs deferential in the support request? Does this answer change if the vendor support team is in the US vs India? Does it further change if the vendor support staff is male vs female?
And my answer is... Just be factual.
What's wrong with following the standard format for bug reporting?
- What you were trying to accomplish
- Steps you took
- Expected result (if there was no bug)
- Actual result (highlighting the bug/problem)
Better yet, attach a screen recording of what you were doing. A video is worth a couple of paragraphs, and should help whether the support staff are in India or the US. If attachments are not allowed, you can write summary on the web form, wait for them to acknowledge/email you, then send the attachment after.
posted by tinydancer at 4:13 PM on July 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Here is the thing, first off you think you have a bug. There are overarching questions of does this company think that addressing bugs is worthwhile?
Because if the answer is no, there is no one to fix it. You can have the most polite, native English speaking, number one customer service agent in the world but if there isn't a paid programmer to fix it, there is not a paid programmer to fix it.
You can look around other bug requests and results online if possible to determine what other people have done and think about this program/ product before moving forward.
Your bug request should be straightforward and simple. How did you find the problem, when did you find the problem. List any error messages or consequences of the problem. Finally how it impacts you followed by what you want done.
For a made up example: When using landscape layout in TextProgram and hitting bold it italized instead. I found this on date at time using blah blah operating system. There was no error message. Could you please look into this ? At my company it impacts production in y way. Thank you.
Please note, that bugs are triaged at companies that fix bugs. An obscure bug outside regular use case for the software may be ignored even if it is a legitimate bug. Because the impact on the user base is much smaller than other things that may need to be fixed.
Good luck!
posted by AlexiaSky at 4:34 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Because if the answer is no, there is no one to fix it. You can have the most polite, native English speaking, number one customer service agent in the world but if there isn't a paid programmer to fix it, there is not a paid programmer to fix it.
You can look around other bug requests and results online if possible to determine what other people have done and think about this program/ product before moving forward.
Your bug request should be straightforward and simple. How did you find the problem, when did you find the problem. List any error messages or consequences of the problem. Finally how it impacts you followed by what you want done.
For a made up example: When using landscape layout in TextProgram and hitting bold it italized instead. I found this on date at time using blah blah operating system. There was no error message. Could you please look into this ? At my company it impacts production in y way. Thank you.
Please note, that bugs are triaged at companies that fix bugs. An obscure bug outside regular use case for the software may be ignored even if it is a legitimate bug. Because the impact on the user base is much smaller than other things that may need to be fixed.
Good luck!
posted by AlexiaSky at 4:34 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Note than Indian English is its own beast and can sometimes read as odd to speakers of other Englishes. It's extremely likely the person who wrote the documentation is not a native English speaker (wiki says they're 0.1% of the Indian population), but that does not mean they are not highly proficient in English.
posted by hoyland at 5:45 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hoyland at 5:45 PM on July 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I work with Indians all day and besides what others have said here’s some quirks that will seem off to not so much native english speakers but Western speakers in general. I do not have these issues with Latin countries for example:
- Be careful of them saying “yes” or agreeing with you. I have come to learn this means “I understand what you’re saying” not necessarily “yes I can do that.”
- They’re obsessed with process and procedures over what we would consider getting the work done. This can be frustrating when things are critical and need to get done but seemingly stop because something was not followed exactly. From a perception perspective it can be frustrating.
- Somewhat similarly I find they can get defensive or territorial working with Westerners. Innocuous things can quickly become where they’ll do something which appears they’re working behind your back. As far as I can tell they usually have a way of doing things their managers want followed to the letter so I’ve done things that would save them significant time and they’ll redo it.
- They tend to stick to their roles very, very strictly. I needed a bug fix that required some backend changes and some very simple HTML changes. Like literally holding something but as they weren’t technically a “UI developer.” So where I’d go bolding text is easier then assigning a new ticket to someone else that’s not how it is seen.
- I’ve seen quite a few developers “fix” things but blindly check in code without even see if it works locally let alone in the environment it is being pushed to as that’s seen as QAs job. To me that’s just strange. Point being if something is marked as fixed don’t assume someone actually made sure it is fixed.
It took me awhile to realize these were largely cultural issues and not necessarily a sign of quality. Not to be negative but I found it best to not try to impose our standards on them and just work within their confines. It never hurts to over communicate or micromanage where I wouldn’t do the same as onshore.
posted by geoff. at 9:15 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
- Be careful of them saying “yes” or agreeing with you. I have come to learn this means “I understand what you’re saying” not necessarily “yes I can do that.”
- They’re obsessed with process and procedures over what we would consider getting the work done. This can be frustrating when things are critical and need to get done but seemingly stop because something was not followed exactly. From a perception perspective it can be frustrating.
- Somewhat similarly I find they can get defensive or territorial working with Westerners. Innocuous things can quickly become where they’ll do something which appears they’re working behind your back. As far as I can tell they usually have a way of doing things their managers want followed to the letter so I’ve done things that would save them significant time and they’ll redo it.
- They tend to stick to their roles very, very strictly. I needed a bug fix that required some backend changes and some very simple HTML changes. Like literally holding something but as they weren’t technically a “UI developer.” So where I’d go bolding text is easier then assigning a new ticket to someone else that’s not how it is seen.
- I’ve seen quite a few developers “fix” things but blindly check in code without even see if it works locally let alone in the environment it is being pushed to as that’s seen as QAs job. To me that’s just strange. Point being if something is marked as fixed don’t assume someone actually made sure it is fixed.
It took me awhile to realize these were largely cultural issues and not necessarily a sign of quality. Not to be negative but I found it best to not try to impose our standards on them and just work within their confines. It never hurts to over communicate or micromanage where I wouldn’t do the same as onshore.
posted by geoff. at 9:15 PM on July 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I also don't understand what you're asking for, and I'm a native English speaker.
Deference is quite important in Indian culture which may explain some of the behaviour described in the comment above mine. It's a culture with high "power distance" - superiors are treated with honour, their orders are final and woe betide you if you break that rule.
Shop staff over there are deferential/polite to customers regardless of gender - so expect your Indian tech support colleagues to be polite when talking to you, their customers. A female US colleague won't be talked down to by her male Indian IT support, if that's your concern.
posted by wandering zinnia at 1:21 AM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Deference is quite important in Indian culture which may explain some of the behaviour described in the comment above mine. It's a culture with high "power distance" - superiors are treated with honour, their orders are final and woe betide you if you break that rule.
Shop staff over there are deferential/polite to customers regardless of gender - so expect your Indian tech support colleagues to be polite when talking to you, their customers. A female US colleague won't be talked down to by her male Indian IT support, if that's your concern.
posted by wandering zinnia at 1:21 AM on July 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You're asking should female customers use confidence or deference to get their requests fulfilled by Indian tech support, via a web form, yes?
Female customers should use the exact same tone they would use with tech support in any other country. Same for male customers. The only thing perhaps to bear in mind is to be extra clear in your use of language, but that's good practice for any tech support request.
I am brown. The comment by geoff. above makes me uncomfortable. I'm sure it's accurate to his experience, and I am sure there are plenty of other people who would make similar generalisations about Indian service providers. But it's not cool. Let's not assume and tell each other there's a way you can deal with Indians as a whole that gets them to do better work for you.
posted by guessthis at 4:30 AM on July 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Female customers should use the exact same tone they would use with tech support in any other country. Same for male customers. The only thing perhaps to bear in mind is to be extra clear in your use of language, but that's good practice for any tech support request.
I am brown. The comment by geoff. above makes me uncomfortable. I'm sure it's accurate to his experience, and I am sure there are plenty of other people who would make similar generalisations about Indian service providers. But it's not cool. Let's not assume and tell each other there's a way you can deal with Indians as a whole that gets them to do better work for you.
posted by guessthis at 4:30 AM on July 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes, I would just treat this like any other tech support request - be a lot clearer than this question, provide any screenshots or exact texts of error messages that you can, be polite. I don't think there's a reason to change up the way you present the perceived culture or gender of the person providing the support, except to the extent of being extra clear and straightforward if you're worried about a language gap - and that's just good practice anyway.
posted by Stacey at 6:12 AM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 6:12 AM on July 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
IDK if this question is you being overly deferential by refusing to state your problem/question/concern outright? If so, then please don't be deferential in filling out the web support forms, because it's difficult to understand what you mean.
Be blunt and direct and absolutely deadpan no-frills outspoken and straightforward. Then, just to be polite (not deferential), add a please at the beginning and a thank you at the end.
posted by MiraK at 7:33 AM on July 28, 2023
Be blunt and direct and absolutely deadpan no-frills outspoken and straightforward. Then, just to be polite (not deferential), add a please at the beginning and a thank you at the end.
posted by MiraK at 7:33 AM on July 28, 2023
Response by poster: Hey, some of y'all seemed to want a bit of clarification. (Sarcasm deleted. Heaven knows I need you people. And this isn't the first time this has happened - I do not get why this wasn't clear.)
Here is my question: Is there anything special about asking for support/possible bug fix from a large web software company in India vs. the US?
Implied request for elaboration: What are those differences.
(follow-up question: How is this not clear? I seriously may post another AskMe on that.)
Many answers above: No, plus a lot of condescension + obviously looking for some other kind of question.
Some answers above: Yes. Thank you.
Add on question: Are there differences due to gender dynamics?
Implied context: In some cultures, there would be.
Implied context: I am not assuming there are, or else I wouldn't be asking the question.
Long backstory about my studies of other cultures and principles of cross-cultural communication, as well as difficulty understanding others' biases - omitted.
posted by amtho at 5:37 PM on July 28, 2023
Here is my question: Is there anything special about asking for support/possible bug fix from a large web software company in India vs. the US?
Implied request for elaboration: What are those differences.
(follow-up question: How is this not clear? I seriously may post another AskMe on that.)
Many answers above: No, plus a lot of condescension + obviously looking for some other kind of question.
Some answers above: Yes. Thank you.
Add on question: Are there differences due to gender dynamics?
Implied context: In some cultures, there would be.
Implied context: I am not assuming there are, or else I wouldn't be asking the question.
Long backstory about my studies of other cultures and principles of cross-cultural communication, as well as difficulty understanding others' biases - omitted.
posted by amtho at 5:37 PM on July 28, 2023
amtho, I'm finding your continued insistence on thinking of Indian people as basically alien to be pretty offensive. It's just a web form for a bug fix. It's not that big a deal, there are no cultural differences, this is a very minor very standard thing. Just do what you would normally do and get on with your life, okay? Your questions would be more appropriate for someone who was considering arranged-marrying into an Indian family they've never met.
posted by MiraK at 6:10 PM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 6:10 PM on July 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm so sorry! This isn't about "people", it's about corporate culture. (Also, it could be said that I view _all_ people as basically alien, so there's that.)
I view Chicago culture as different from North Carolina culture, which is really different from rural Georgia culture where I grew up. If I had a very important interaction planned with a big company in Washington State or Oregon, I would research that, I promise. If I had a need for some action from ANY big company, even one near me, I would learn everything I could about that company (I actually did that when I was trying to get a particular type of Thinkpad once - it worked. I ended up visiting a local Lenovo branch).
I am aware that in some situations, if I make jokes it offends people; in some situations, if I smile people interpret it VERY differently from my intent; in some situations, using technical jargon helps, and in others it hurts.
I am extra diligent, I am thorough, and often I am successful because of this.
It's ... hurtful that anyone would assume that the extra work I do to be considerate and good at communication is being misinterpreted.
A situation that might be closer to what you imagine: I would learn about customs before traveling, too. And the times I haven't, things have gone badly. Why is this a problem?
It could be said that researching and preparing leads to a relaxed, focused-on-the-individual-person interaction when it's time for that to happen, because one doesn't have to be constantly apologizing or making up for various flubs.
One more thing: some kind of deficit in my understanding is why you are miffed at me right now. Shouldn't I try to prevent that?
posted by amtho at 7:14 PM on July 28, 2023
I view Chicago culture as different from North Carolina culture, which is really different from rural Georgia culture where I grew up. If I had a very important interaction planned with a big company in Washington State or Oregon, I would research that, I promise. If I had a need for some action from ANY big company, even one near me, I would learn everything I could about that company (I actually did that when I was trying to get a particular type of Thinkpad once - it worked. I ended up visiting a local Lenovo branch).
I am aware that in some situations, if I make jokes it offends people; in some situations, if I smile people interpret it VERY differently from my intent; in some situations, using technical jargon helps, and in others it hurts.
I am extra diligent, I am thorough, and often I am successful because of this.
It's ... hurtful that anyone would assume that the extra work I do to be considerate and good at communication is being misinterpreted.
A situation that might be closer to what you imagine: I would learn about customs before traveling, too. And the times I haven't, things have gone badly. Why is this a problem?
It could be said that researching and preparing leads to a relaxed, focused-on-the-individual-person interaction when it's time for that to happen, because one doesn't have to be constantly apologizing or making up for various flubs.
One more thing: some kind of deficit in my understanding is why you are miffed at me right now. Shouldn't I try to prevent that?
posted by amtho at 7:14 PM on July 28, 2023
This isn't traveling. It's filling out a bug report via a web form. Your panic over the possibility of running afoul of cultural differences *in this context* is racist. You are wondering whether there's ~cultural differences~ to be cognizant of in the way "those people" do perfectly ordinary things. It's a fucking web form, amtho. There is literally no way you can practice cultural correctness here. The standard is common to most of the world.
You might as well be getting worked up over "oh no, do Indians know how to say the word hello? Will they understand me if I say it? Do I have to be ~deferential~ to help them understand? Oh no, what if they don't understand that word? I'm just trying to be culturally sensitive, hellppp." Can you understand how dehumanizing that is?? Let. This. Go.
Your intentions may not be racist. Indeed it's very clear that you're experiencing an inordinate amount of general anxiety and your anxiety has chosen to express itself as an obsession over this particular topic. However, obsessing over this particular topic is racist, no two ways about it.
My mom has generalized anxiety too, and sometimes she spins out of control perseverating about a topic just happens to be nearby within her field of vision in order to discharge that anxiety. One time what was in her field of vision happened to be a Black child, about 4 years old, running and squealing and having fun at the playground. My mom started ranting about how much noise this child was making - she was spiraling so much and starting to get so loud that I had to physically make her leave the playground. What she was saying was 100% racist. But what she was trying to express was her anxiety about having to fly the next day (she is deathly scared of flying but she tries not to think about it, tries to hide it).
Do you see what I mean? I think that's what is happening to you. You're anxious. And you're choosing to dump all that anxiety into a racist obsession with cultural differences in filling out web forms for big reports. You gotta stop. Go deal with your anxiety some other way.
posted by MiraK at 9:05 PM on July 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
You might as well be getting worked up over "oh no, do Indians know how to say the word hello? Will they understand me if I say it? Do I have to be ~deferential~ to help them understand? Oh no, what if they don't understand that word? I'm just trying to be culturally sensitive, hellppp." Can you understand how dehumanizing that is?? Let. This. Go.
Your intentions may not be racist. Indeed it's very clear that you're experiencing an inordinate amount of general anxiety and your anxiety has chosen to express itself as an obsession over this particular topic. However, obsessing over this particular topic is racist, no two ways about it.
My mom has generalized anxiety too, and sometimes she spins out of control perseverating about a topic just happens to be nearby within her field of vision in order to discharge that anxiety. One time what was in her field of vision happened to be a Black child, about 4 years old, running and squealing and having fun at the playground. My mom started ranting about how much noise this child was making - she was spiraling so much and starting to get so loud that I had to physically make her leave the playground. What she was saying was 100% racist. But what she was trying to express was her anxiety about having to fly the next day (she is deathly scared of flying but she tries not to think about it, tries to hide it).
Do you see what I mean? I think that's what is happening to you. You're anxious. And you're choosing to dump all that anxiety into a racist obsession with cultural differences in filling out web forms for big reports. You gotta stop. Go deal with your anxiety some other way.
posted by MiraK at 9:05 PM on July 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Why do you think I have panic? I don't have panic at all. There was no anxiety here.
(I'm definitely feeling anxious at your response, and I'm really sorry to have offended you. If this is a kind of offense that is unique to you, all I can do is apologize; If it's you plus a bunch of people who are similar in some way, please send me to something I can read that will allow me to simultaneously seek information in a deep way and also avoid upsetting them and you.)
Asking questions _before interacting with people_ is thoroughness and care. Cultural awareness training is something people do to avoid offending people - my worry here isn't specifically offending people, but more being dismissed or ...
Maybe this is the bit I should have explained better: I'm not worried about some kind of bizarre extreme experience.
When interacting with tech support in general, there is very definitely a special cultural understanding I have from _being a tech support provider_. It was a long time ago, but I still have enough insight to connect well, sometimes, and it's been tremendously helpful. I have maybe a little extra empathy, and I kind of know what's fun, what the boundaries are, when there's time pressure and when there's not. I know how to be considerate of people's time, and feelings, and what makes them think other people don't respect them, and why they might respect me -- which is _hard_ to figure out in many other contexts.
In a totally different context, without seeking it, I was actually put to the front of the line for a scarce resource just because I made a customer service rep genuinely happy with a truly dumb joke. I mean it was really dumb. But we had a human connection, because I _wanted_ to have a human connection, and because I knew a lot about the overall landscape of that business from having called _every single business_ like that in my area (because the thing I sought was so hard to find). (Since it's likely that a reader would have skimmed past my "without seeking it" phrase, I will reiterate: I did not seek this. Honestly I felt weird about it and tried to demur, but then that seemed to make the rep feel weird, and it wasn't _that_ scarce, so... it happened. I still feel weird about it.)
So, the thing I'm contacting tech support about, this time, is very important to me, and to a group of people who are putting their hearts and souls into making the world better in one specific way. It's also complicated and hard to explain.
I know enough about tech support to know that, if this isn't handled right by us, the report could be skimmed and assumed to be user error (when I know it's not), or we could go through the automatic-link-to-FAQ cycle, or we could be connected to the wrong department, or our issue could be sent to UI developers instead of to back-end developers -- any of these wrong turns are likely, if our report isn't read carefully. And tech support is likely to be as overloaded as everyone else.
I also know that, if a tech support person is offended, even unintentionally, or if they see "signs" that we are uninformed, or that we are rude, they will feel understandably justified in reading the first two sentences, making assumptions, and then reacting based on that.
Yes, we are being careful with the wording, and the structure, and being genuine -- but offending people can still happen when one does all those things.
posted by amtho at 9:58 PM on July 28, 2023
(I'm definitely feeling anxious at your response, and I'm really sorry to have offended you. If this is a kind of offense that is unique to you, all I can do is apologize; If it's you plus a bunch of people who are similar in some way, please send me to something I can read that will allow me to simultaneously seek information in a deep way and also avoid upsetting them and you.)
Asking questions _before interacting with people_ is thoroughness and care. Cultural awareness training is something people do to avoid offending people - my worry here isn't specifically offending people, but more being dismissed or ...
Maybe this is the bit I should have explained better: I'm not worried about some kind of bizarre extreme experience.
When interacting with tech support in general, there is very definitely a special cultural understanding I have from _being a tech support provider_. It was a long time ago, but I still have enough insight to connect well, sometimes, and it's been tremendously helpful. I have maybe a little extra empathy, and I kind of know what's fun, what the boundaries are, when there's time pressure and when there's not. I know how to be considerate of people's time, and feelings, and what makes them think other people don't respect them, and why they might respect me -- which is _hard_ to figure out in many other contexts.
In a totally different context, without seeking it, I was actually put to the front of the line for a scarce resource just because I made a customer service rep genuinely happy with a truly dumb joke. I mean it was really dumb. But we had a human connection, because I _wanted_ to have a human connection, and because I knew a lot about the overall landscape of that business from having called _every single business_ like that in my area (because the thing I sought was so hard to find). (Since it's likely that a reader would have skimmed past my "without seeking it" phrase, I will reiterate: I did not seek this. Honestly I felt weird about it and tried to demur, but then that seemed to make the rep feel weird, and it wasn't _that_ scarce, so... it happened. I still feel weird about it.)
So, the thing I'm contacting tech support about, this time, is very important to me, and to a group of people who are putting their hearts and souls into making the world better in one specific way. It's also complicated and hard to explain.
I know enough about tech support to know that, if this isn't handled right by us, the report could be skimmed and assumed to be user error (when I know it's not), or we could go through the automatic-link-to-FAQ cycle, or we could be connected to the wrong department, or our issue could be sent to UI developers instead of to back-end developers -- any of these wrong turns are likely, if our report isn't read carefully. And tech support is likely to be as overloaded as everyone else.
I also know that, if a tech support person is offended, even unintentionally, or if they see "signs" that we are uninformed, or that we are rude, they will feel understandably justified in reading the first two sentences, making assumptions, and then reacting based on that.
Yes, we are being careful with the wording, and the structure, and being genuine -- but offending people can still happen when one does all those things.
posted by amtho at 9:58 PM on July 28, 2023
Response by poster: MiraK, you are projecting a whole emotional landscape onto me that is very very far from my reality. I promise. That is not what is happening with me.
I think often people, now, read particular sentences and _hear_ them in ways that are heavily influenced by the way certain people said similar sentences in the past. Emotionally extreme, or offensive, versions are much more memorable than neutral ones, or even positive gentle ones. So we're more likely to hear the extreme/offensive versions of otherwise unemotional sentences.
It is possible to ask a lot of questions without being anxious. That's me. (I do have anxiety sometimes, but perhaps it's not baseless.)
posted by amtho at 10:07 PM on July 28, 2023
I think often people, now, read particular sentences and _hear_ them in ways that are heavily influenced by the way certain people said similar sentences in the past. Emotionally extreme, or offensive, versions are much more memorable than neutral ones, or even positive gentle ones. So we're more likely to hear the extreme/offensive versions of otherwise unemotional sentences.
It is possible to ask a lot of questions without being anxious. That's me. (I do have anxiety sometimes, but perhaps it's not baseless.)
posted by amtho at 10:07 PM on July 28, 2023
Best answer: To expand on my previous answer - The main difference culturally is that Indians are (and note this is a generalisation) less likely to treat their managers/bosses as friends; they won't contradict or push back on orders they disagree with. Instead of assuming they will be as combative as Americans, take the initiative to ask if they have any problems or need help. Make it clear there are no consequences for being honest. i.e:
"Let me know if you need any more information to fix the bug. I'm happy to help!"
"Are you sure you can fix the bug in this time frame? It's OK if you can't - I just need to know for planning purposes".
Being friendly and understanding goes a long way. Asking instead of assuming is good practice in the corporate world regardless of the country your colleagues come from.
posted by wandering zinnia at 3:14 AM on July 29, 2023
"Let me know if you need any more information to fix the bug. I'm happy to help!"
"Are you sure you can fix the bug in this time frame? It's OK if you can't - I just need to know for planning purposes".
Being friendly and understanding goes a long way. Asking instead of assuming is good practice in the corporate world regardless of the country your colleagues come from.
posted by wandering zinnia at 3:14 AM on July 29, 2023
I understand your good intentions, amtho. But the examples you give, of Southerners and small town dwellers, are both white and/or US coded. Your question may be reasonable, but it feels inappropriate for you, a presumably non-brown person, to ask it in this diverse global forum that includes some of those you are treating as a subject of collective study. I can’t tell you you’re wrong, but I can tell you in it does feel dehumanising to me. You get to decide if you’re being racist.
posted by guessthis at 4:38 AM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by guessthis at 4:38 AM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Comparing fist fights to filling out a web form is one of the reasons people think you may be overly anxious about this, for the record.
It's so much more important that you fill out the form clearly and without extraneous detail - ie, unlike this question/comments - than it is that you know what gender/nationality/whatever the tech support person is.
You're pointing your research in a really strange direction for what are still somewhat unclear reasons, and in a way that doesn't really line up with how most people prep for these things.
Why not submit the bug report, and then come back here to ask for advice if things don't work out? That way, you'll have something to base your concerns, rather than attempting to think through every possible hypothetical.
posted by sagc at 7:45 AM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's so much more important that you fill out the form clearly and without extraneous detail - ie, unlike this question/comments - than it is that you know what gender/nationality/whatever the tech support person is.
You're pointing your research in a really strange direction for what are still somewhat unclear reasons, and in a way that doesn't really line up with how most people prep for these things.
Why not submit the bug report, and then come back here to ask for advice if things don't work out? That way, you'll have something to base your concerns, rather than attempting to think through every possible hypothetical.
posted by sagc at 7:45 AM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
And I want to point out - you *do* seem to think that by writing the perfect bug report, you're going to avoid:
posted by sagc at 7:49 AM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
assumed to be user error (when I know it's not), or we could go through the automatic-link-to-FAQ cycle, or we could be connected to the wrong department, or our issue could be sent to UI developers instead of to back-end developers -- any of these wrong turns are likely, if our report isn't read carefullyThis is far more likely to be the result of things entirely outside your control, not based on whether you had a female name or were appropriately deferential.
posted by sagc at 7:49 AM on July 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Couple of comments removed, including some from the OP.
Folks, don't accuse the OP of playing dumb, period.
OP, consider dialing back responding to comments. Keep in mind that Ask Metafilter isn't for back and forth discussion on a topic, but to get answers to a specific question. It's fine to pop in to clarify if people want or need more info, but otherwise just take in the answers, and determine for yourself what is useful for your purposes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:01 AM on July 29, 2023
Folks, don't accuse the OP of playing dumb, period.
OP, consider dialing back responding to comments. Keep in mind that Ask Metafilter isn't for back and forth discussion on a topic, but to get answers to a specific question. It's fine to pop in to clarify if people want or need more info, but otherwise just take in the answers, and determine for yourself what is useful for your purposes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:01 AM on July 29, 2023
A better, clearer, more respectful way to ask this would be,
I have a very important tech support question about a piece of software that does ABC. Unfortunately, instead of ABC, it's doing DEF, and we've tried HIJ but it still isn't working. How best should I phrase my question to get a quick and accurate response from the software company's customer service team, who likely do not speak English as a first language?
The part where people are speculating and monologuing about what "they" "Indians" do? That's... wild. My jaw dropped reading this thread.
I kind of love these types of threads though, because I get gaslit a lot when I say I can tell that, very often, certain people just do not see brown-skinned people as real people. Threads like this show me I'm not wrong. There's truly not some secret level of, like, mysterious brown-appeasing submissiveness that you need to enact, in order to get your website to website.
Customer service reps in (gasp) India are literally just PEOPLE doing a job. Like you at your own job, the Indian customer service rep would like to fulfil their job description by solving the problems they're paid to solve; reach their target numbers, and get positive feedback. This means they'll: do their best to understand your problem and help you solve it; do it efficiently; and absorb the brunt of your personality with a pleasant and polite attitude.
If "they" understand what you're asking, "they" will try to help you. I promise. Even if you're, like, not "deferential" or whatever. So just work on that part - being clear about what the issue is and what you'd like them to try.
No extra Indian-spice needed, honestly.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:31 AM on July 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
I have a very important tech support question about a piece of software that does ABC. Unfortunately, instead of ABC, it's doing DEF, and we've tried HIJ but it still isn't working. How best should I phrase my question to get a quick and accurate response from the software company's customer service team, who likely do not speak English as a first language?
The part where people are speculating and monologuing about what "they" "Indians" do? That's... wild. My jaw dropped reading this thread.
I kind of love these types of threads though, because I get gaslit a lot when I say I can tell that, very often, certain people just do not see brown-skinned people as real people. Threads like this show me I'm not wrong. There's truly not some secret level of, like, mysterious brown-appeasing submissiveness that you need to enact, in order to get your website to website.
Customer service reps in (gasp) India are literally just PEOPLE doing a job. Like you at your own job, the Indian customer service rep would like to fulfil their job description by solving the problems they're paid to solve; reach their target numbers, and get positive feedback. This means they'll: do their best to understand your problem and help you solve it; do it efficiently; and absorb the brunt of your personality with a pleasant and polite attitude.
If "they" understand what you're asking, "they" will try to help you. I promise. Even if you're, like, not "deferential" or whatever. So just work on that part - being clear about what the issue is and what you'd like them to try.
No extra Indian-spice needed, honestly.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 11:31 AM on July 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: the examples you give, of Southerners and small town dwellers
That's *me*, that's where I come from. That's why I gave that as an example. And it's not "small town dwellers" - the paper I referenced pointed to Scots-Irish culture as a strong influence, not "smallness".
Forgive me for adding this - it's upsetting to be cast as various stereotypes, personally, as in people are personally making assumptions about my motivations and internal reasoning. I believe that if I don't try to present some kind of counter then I'm not doing my part to balance the narrative. Also, I want _everyone_ to feel _safe_ asking actual, open-hearted, truth-seeking questions, without constantly fearing being characterized as mean. It's very, very important.
Curiosity and inquiry are the better part of human nature, and they are the opposite of what some people are fearing here; they are the opposite of making assumptions. Asking questions is good, even if it reminds you of the way some non-curious people answer questions for themselves without asking. Being _afraid_ to ask questions is incredibly destructive. Please don't cause that.
posted by amtho at 2:45 PM on July 29, 2023
That's *me*, that's where I come from. That's why I gave that as an example. And it's not "small town dwellers" - the paper I referenced pointed to Scots-Irish culture as a strong influence, not "smallness".
Forgive me for adding this - it's upsetting to be cast as various stereotypes, personally, as in people are personally making assumptions about my motivations and internal reasoning. I believe that if I don't try to present some kind of counter then I'm not doing my part to balance the narrative. Also, I want _everyone_ to feel _safe_ asking actual, open-hearted, truth-seeking questions, without constantly fearing being characterized as mean. It's very, very important.
Curiosity and inquiry are the better part of human nature, and they are the opposite of what some people are fearing here; they are the opposite of making assumptions. Asking questions is good, even if it reminds you of the way some non-curious people answer questions for themselves without asking. Being _afraid_ to ask questions is incredibly destructive. Please don't cause that.
posted by amtho at 2:45 PM on July 29, 2023
Gently, amtho, it’s also very very important to call out racism when you see it. If I think you’re being racist and you disagree with me, we both get to say our piece. Brown people challenging your words is not an act of aggression. Please respect that you may feel wronged, but others also feel wronged by you. Both sides should feel safe to engage. And now I’m done.
posted by guessthis at 3:45 PM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by guessthis at 3:45 PM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
You should be afraid to ask racist questions. Far from being destructive, instilling a fear of social repercussions is a great tool to shut racism down.
posted by MiraK at 7:11 PM on July 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 7:11 PM on July 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Fear? You're pro-fear? Intentionally? You're _trying_ to make me afraid? Why? What happens next, I shut up and just stew in my own unanswered questions and... how do you think that affects peoples' world view, or their comfort with people different from themselves?
It's one thing to say, "It's not my responsibility to make the world better because some people not understanding things isn't a thing I caused", it's another to say, "I'm busy, but I will take time to make this person be afraid of me because that's how I think the world will be improved."
Reasonable and constructive might sound something like, "Hey, when some people say this they mean it in a biased way," not "I know I've never met you, but you're X, and the more you defend yourself, the more X you seem to me, because I assume you're dismissing my feelings if you don't apologize for the thing I accused you of." AAAARgh.
I get that you're mad. But you're not mad at me. I can't prove you're wrong. But you can't prove you're right - all you have are inferences and the impression that some group of words I said vaguely resembled something your mother said.
guessthis: Respectfully, the "if I think you're X and you don't and we both get to say our piece" is only fair in a court session, where each party is guaranteed adequate time and attention to present their cases, to people who are primed and/or trained to listen objectively. Strongly negative accusations are much more memorable and powerful than "no I didn't" or any less emotionally powerful counterargument. Making emotionally powerful, context-free, reactionary accusations in conversation, or on a forum, or in a newspaper - that's perhaps legal, perhaps common, but not reasonable, and quite destructive.
posted by amtho at 8:04 PM on July 29, 2023
It's one thing to say, "It's not my responsibility to make the world better because some people not understanding things isn't a thing I caused", it's another to say, "I'm busy, but I will take time to make this person be afraid of me because that's how I think the world will be improved."
Reasonable and constructive might sound something like, "Hey, when some people say this they mean it in a biased way," not "I know I've never met you, but you're X, and the more you defend yourself, the more X you seem to me, because I assume you're dismissing my feelings if you don't apologize for the thing I accused you of." AAAARgh.
I get that you're mad. But you're not mad at me. I can't prove you're wrong. But you can't prove you're right - all you have are inferences and the impression that some group of words I said vaguely resembled something your mother said.
guessthis: Respectfully, the "if I think you're X and you don't and we both get to say our piece" is only fair in a court session, where each party is guaranteed adequate time and attention to present their cases, to people who are primed and/or trained to listen objectively. Strongly negative accusations are much more memorable and powerful than "no I didn't" or any less emotionally powerful counterargument. Making emotionally powerful, context-free, reactionary accusations in conversation, or on a forum, or in a newspaper - that's perhaps legal, perhaps common, but not reasonable, and quite destructive.
posted by amtho at 8:04 PM on July 29, 2023
The way we learn is by asking questions and absorbing the result. You framed this particular question in a pretty racist way, but that doesn't have to mean you're intrinsically "a racist" or that everything you say is going to be racist or whatever other doom-takes you seem to be jumping to.
You messed up here, in my view. People mess up. I have messed up. (there's a recent meta including a way I messed up here once)! That's ok. It's unreasonable to expect perfection from anyone. The differentiator here is how you react to messing up, and hopefully how you learn and grow. A bunch of people here are giving you information that the way you framed this question is not a great look. Are you going to take that information and learn and grow and question your assumptions, or are you going to double down?
posted by Alterscape at 8:14 PM on July 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
You messed up here, in my view. People mess up. I have messed up. (there's a recent meta including a way I messed up here once)! That's ok. It's unreasonable to expect perfection from anyone. The differentiator here is how you react to messing up, and hopefully how you learn and grow. A bunch of people here are giving you information that the way you framed this question is not a great look. Are you going to take that information and learn and grow and question your assumptions, or are you going to double down?
posted by Alterscape at 8:14 PM on July 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Also - I think the thing that upset you initially, MiraK, is that you thought I _was_ afraid. So from your own perspective, you're meeting someone who is afraid, and you're dealing with that by trying to make them more afraid.
I'm internally assessing whether that's simplifying things to the degree that it's essentially untrue, but I don't think it is.
I think you're meeting what you see as fear, and it makes you angry, and you let that anger push you into wanting to make the other person more fearful.
Racism is one of the most destructive forces on earth. Other-hatred, other-fear -- they have to be met with overwhelming force because they are into everything and messing everything up. I think that deserves a more thoughtful approach, because they need to be suffocated at the source - and honestly I've always thought that source was something very close to fear.
posted by amtho at 8:17 PM on July 29, 2023
I'm internally assessing whether that's simplifying things to the degree that it's essentially untrue, but I don't think it is.
I think you're meeting what you see as fear, and it makes you angry, and you let that anger push you into wanting to make the other person more fearful.
Racism is one of the most destructive forces on earth. Other-hatred, other-fear -- they have to be met with overwhelming force because they are into everything and messing everything up. I think that deserves a more thoughtful approach, because they need to be suffocated at the source - and honestly I've always thought that source was something very close to fear.
posted by amtho at 8:17 PM on July 29, 2023
Response by poster: Hey Alterscape, of course I've learned from it and will continue to do so. I'm reacting strongly not to those bits of information.
Just like it's important to call out racism (gently, I think, because people do mess up and treating them as sub-human because of that doesn't help anything), I am not going to stand by and let "you should be afraid" or "this really gross image from my childhood is you" pass by, whether it's directed at me or at you or _even at MiraK_. It's very very bad. No one should intentionally try to make another person feel awful or ashamed or afraid. That's the bigger enemy.
Not even the person doing it - just the pattern, the belief that this is how to fight. It's not.
posted by amtho at 8:22 PM on July 29, 2023
Just like it's important to call out racism (gently, I think, because people do mess up and treating them as sub-human because of that doesn't help anything), I am not going to stand by and let "you should be afraid" or "this really gross image from my childhood is you" pass by, whether it's directed at me or at you or _even at MiraK_. It's very very bad. No one should intentionally try to make another person feel awful or ashamed or afraid. That's the bigger enemy.
Not even the person doing it - just the pattern, the belief that this is how to fight. It's not.
posted by amtho at 8:22 PM on July 29, 2023
Look. You framed this question in a way that emphasized how other these people were to you. People are trying to point that out, and you're trying to make it about them doing something wrong.
That's why people are getting more exasperated, I think.
posted by sagc at 8:24 PM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
That's why people are getting more exasperated, I think.
posted by sagc at 8:24 PM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: I'll probably ask to have this question deleted, and it might be anyway, but I'm not ready yet. I think there is an important idea that hasn't really been framed perfectly, but it's important. Discussions like this do happen, and just ignoring them or saying they are "bad" means we collectively can't learn from them -- and we need to. As a group. The upset-ness that's happening here - if we could understand the root of it, the underlying misunderstanding, maybe we could find a way around it other than "you should be afraid to ask". Argh.
posted by amtho at 8:26 PM on July 29, 2023
posted by amtho at 8:26 PM on July 29, 2023
Right, but you could have just... read the answers and taken them on board. People don't need to also absolve you of your sins.
posted by sagc at 8:29 PM on July 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:29 PM on July 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: in a way that emphasized how other
Dude, I was made to sit through a class and take tests to make sure I wouldn't forget that it was important to acknowledge people have different expectations of each other. Then I worked to make other people comfortable by spending extra time and energy just to _find out_ how different or not different their expectations might be - it's all probability, no member of a group is exactly the average of that group - and just ASKING THE QUESTION, in your opinion, makes me a bad person.
No. That's not right.
posted by amtho at 8:32 PM on July 29, 2023
Dude, I was made to sit through a class and take tests to make sure I wouldn't forget that it was important to acknowledge people have different expectations of each other. Then I worked to make other people comfortable by spending extra time and energy just to _find out_ how different or not different their expectations might be - it's all probability, no member of a group is exactly the average of that group - and just ASKING THE QUESTION, in your opinion, makes me a bad person.
No. That's not right.
posted by amtho at 8:32 PM on July 29, 2023
Response by poster: No they don't need to absolve me of my nonexistent sins. Yes I have taken the answers on board.
posted by amtho at 8:32 PM on July 29, 2023
posted by amtho at 8:32 PM on July 29, 2023
Response by poster: What I'm doing that's unusual is not allowing people to shame me for asking a dang question, and I'm not allowing the idea that fear is anything but destructive to stand unchallenged.
posted by amtho at 8:33 PM on July 29, 2023
posted by amtho at 8:33 PM on July 29, 2023
Response by poster: I also have not called anyone names, nor implied that anyone was stupid or less deserving of respect, nor tried to intimidate anyone, nor shame them. Which honestly isn't difficult if you actually focus on the real enemy here.
posted by amtho at 8:35 PM on July 29, 2023
posted by amtho at 8:35 PM on July 29, 2023
if we could understand the root of it, the underlying misunderstandingBased on your responses here, I think you might want to reflect on white fragility/defensiveness, amtho. I say that as a white person who is still doing the work himself and is far from perfect here, for what it's worth. Questioning your worldview and the assumptions you were socialized with is not always easy or pleasant, but it's necessary and valuable work.
posted by Alterscape at 9:41 PM on July 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Closing this up. For future interaction: If your assumptions are challenged, that can be a completely valid answer. If the problem is that there is missing or misunderstood info, ask for a delete and repost in a clearer way. Or reflect that your assumptions were problematic, and go forth with better understanding, because that is helpful too. But please do not use this space to debate, defend, argue, lash out, etc.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:02 PM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:02 PM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
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*More clear than this question. Draft your support request and then come back to it at least a few hours later to check that you have actually expressed what you want to communicate, with everything laid out in a logical order.
posted by heatherlogan at 3:21 PM on July 27, 2023 [8 favorites]