Why do most Jews maintain their attachment to Judaism after 2,000 years?
July 4, 2023 5:51 PM Subscribe
Asking for a Jewish friend: For 2,000 years, Jews have faced social stigma, physical harm, and
emotional trauma for the sake of their religion. Why do most Jews maintain their attachment to Judaism?
This may be jarring to some some, but it has been a positive survival trait.
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posted by LonnieK at 6:09 PM on July 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by LonnieK at 6:09 PM on July 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
First recorded persecution was, what, 605BCE? But I think it’s safe to assume there were events prior to that.
Judaism is not just a religion, and it’s really important to remember that: it is an ethnic group, a genetic lineage, and a full culture of song and dress and story and food that INCLUDES religion. It’s an entire ethnicity. The question is so confusing to me: would you ask this same question in other similar situations; why don’t the Uyghurs just stop being Uyghurs, or why don’t Kurds just stop being Kurds, or why don’t Diné just stop being Diné? Outsiders - non- Jews - I think are more prone to see Judaism as “only” a religion, I suspect because Christianity, predominantly, sees Christianity as something you can choose to be or not. As my old rabbi used to say, you can choose to be a practicing Jew or a non-practicing Jew, but you can never choose to not be a Jew.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:23 PM on July 4, 2023 [103 favorites]
Judaism is not just a religion, and it’s really important to remember that: it is an ethnic group, a genetic lineage, and a full culture of song and dress and story and food that INCLUDES religion. It’s an entire ethnicity. The question is so confusing to me: would you ask this same question in other similar situations; why don’t the Uyghurs just stop being Uyghurs, or why don’t Kurds just stop being Kurds, or why don’t Diné just stop being Diné? Outsiders - non- Jews - I think are more prone to see Judaism as “only” a religion, I suspect because Christianity, predominantly, sees Christianity as something you can choose to be or not. As my old rabbi used to say, you can choose to be a practicing Jew or a non-practicing Jew, but you can never choose to not be a Jew.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:23 PM on July 4, 2023 [103 favorites]
It's a very complicated and highly politicized topic, but one way you might approach it is by reframing the question a little. For some, Jewish identity is tied to religion. For others, it's more of an ethnicity. For others, it's both, an ethnoreligious identity. Not all self-identified Jews are attached to Judaism as a belief system -- it has more to do with a sense of ancestry, culture, and more. Or, on preview, see above.
posted by pleasant_confusion at 6:25 PM on July 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by pleasant_confusion at 6:25 PM on July 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, why does any group of people (religious or otherwise) hold dear the foods, culture, beliefs, ethics, and traditions of their ancestors? These are meaningful parts of a person's life, not easily discarded.
But also, I disagree a bit with your premise - like other religions, there is a growing percentage of people who may identify as Jewish, but as a culture, not a religion. And certainly, there is a reason (well, multiple reasons) a number of Jewish Americans either adopted totally new last names or modified their last name.
Edit: on preview, what others have said.
posted by coffeecat at 6:26 PM on July 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
But also, I disagree a bit with your premise - like other religions, there is a growing percentage of people who may identify as Jewish, but as a culture, not a religion. And certainly, there is a reason (well, multiple reasons) a number of Jewish Americans either adopted totally new last names or modified their last name.
Edit: on preview, what others have said.
posted by coffeecat at 6:26 PM on July 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Who says "most" Jews do? I don't mean that sarcastically -- I identify as Jewish for sure, and rarely go to synagogue, and happily do some kinds of observances at home. But I don't know that "most" Jewish people do any one particular thing.
posted by BlahLaLa at 6:27 PM on July 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 6:27 PM on July 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
One last thought: there are plenty of non-practicing Jewish people who have been harassed and assaulted. Antisemitism - and I’m extending the term to other non-Jewish semitic people- is complicated in its ugliness: not practicing the religion does not necessarily make you one whit safer.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:32 PM on July 4, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:32 PM on July 4, 2023 [28 favorites]
Antisemitism - and I’m extending the term to other non-Jewish semitic people- is complicated in its ugliness: not practicing the religion does not necessarily make you one whit safer.
Exactly. Beginning in the 19th century, German Jews (as a population) were the most secularized in the world, with a high percentage of them abandoning religious practices altogether. This meant precisely nothing once the Nazis came to power in 1933.
posted by paper scissors sock at 7:00 PM on July 4, 2023 [34 favorites]
Exactly. Beginning in the 19th century, German Jews (as a population) were the most secularized in the world, with a high percentage of them abandoning religious practices altogether. This meant precisely nothing once the Nazis came to power in 1933.
posted by paper scissors sock at 7:00 PM on July 4, 2023 [34 favorites]
Shabbat is super nice. I'm pretty sure that's the answer. "More than the Jews have kept Shabbat, Shabbat has kept the Jews," etc.
posted by shadygrove at 7:30 PM on July 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by shadygrove at 7:30 PM on July 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
(Non-religious Jew here:) maintaining our culture, identity, and traditions becomes more and more valuable the more others try to destroy them. It is an act of resilience, of resistance. It's showing the ones who tried to destroy us that they can't.
posted by capricorn at 7:48 PM on July 4, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by capricorn at 7:48 PM on July 4, 2023 [29 favorites]
I mean, the fact that they are, according to one source, God’s chosen people might have something to do with it. I mean, if the Creator of the Universe told you He chose you, would you really just be like, “nah, I’m good, I feel like being a Unitarian”?
posted by kevinbelt at 8:09 PM on July 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kevinbelt at 8:09 PM on July 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Spite. No seriously, a lot of it is spite. But like, productive spite, if that’s a thing? We will endure, despite all you throw at us. I will endure, in no small part because it pisses you off. And that means remembering, and sharing, and taking stock of what makes us who we are and incorporating new ideas, embracing forgotten ones, studying and talking and doing what it takes to keep on keeping on. Nothing quite brings the energy to persist like spitting in the eye of those who would rather I not.
posted by Mizu at 8:18 PM on July 4, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 8:18 PM on July 4, 2023 [19 favorites]
I mean, if the Creator of the Universe told you He chose you
I spent some time living in the Navajo Nation, and I felt great kinship with how traditionals talked to me about how they saw their practices. I’ve never been comfortable with the word “Chosen” — more for me like, “Hey, you, you part of my Creation! These are the things I need you to do, every day, to benefit everything I created.” It’s not chosen with a capital “c”, but more like “chosen” as in a loving and beloved obligation.
posted by Silvery Fish at 8:25 PM on July 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
I spent some time living in the Navajo Nation, and I felt great kinship with how traditionals talked to me about how they saw their practices. I’ve never been comfortable with the word “Chosen” — more for me like, “Hey, you, you part of my Creation! These are the things I need you to do, every day, to benefit everything I created.” It’s not chosen with a capital “c”, but more like “chosen” as in a loving and beloved obligation.
posted by Silvery Fish at 8:25 PM on July 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think persecution makes a certain kind of person more dedicated to a belief system, not less. And then, the guilt of abandoning a belief system you know your ancestors died to defend is pretty hard to take too.
posted by potrzebie at 8:48 PM on July 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 8:48 PM on July 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
I suspect that the correct answer is, "As opposed to what?" No group of people is suddenly going to abandon their culture and traditions and be something else. I'm not sure it's possible to do that, and even if one could, the result wouldn't, for at least a few generations, be seamless enough that people wouldn't persecute you.
I suppose that if someone said, "Do this and you won't be persecuted," and could reasonably guarantee that, it might be a proposition people would look at, but I wouldn't trust such an offer to hold up over months, never mind generations.
I like people who belong to other cultures, and I find them interesting, but I'm comfortable with my culture and think it's pretty good. It would take a lot to get me to change, and I'd feel very awkward and artificial performing ceremonies and following customs that meant nothing to me. At gunpoint, I'd probably pretend to do that, but really? I doubt it.
Some people have tried, mostly under threat of violence, to give the impression that they've abandoned Jewish culture. They're called crypto-Jews, and there are a number of articles about them on the web. Their customs seem to be superficially not Jewish, but under that they pretty much are, after centuries.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 9:36 PM on July 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I suppose that if someone said, "Do this and you won't be persecuted," and could reasonably guarantee that, it might be a proposition people would look at, but I wouldn't trust such an offer to hold up over months, never mind generations.
I like people who belong to other cultures, and I find them interesting, but I'm comfortable with my culture and think it's pretty good. It would take a lot to get me to change, and I'd feel very awkward and artificial performing ceremonies and following customs that meant nothing to me. At gunpoint, I'd probably pretend to do that, but really? I doubt it.
Some people have tried, mostly under threat of violence, to give the impression that they've abandoned Jewish culture. They're called crypto-Jews, and there are a number of articles about them on the web. Their customs seem to be superficially not Jewish, but under that they pretty much are, after centuries.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 9:36 PM on July 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Speaking as a non-Jew, there are some things about Judaism that are really cool?
Also, as someone else pointed out, you can get persecuted just for your genetics on this one. Converting to Christianity a la The Merchant of Venice may not save your bacon from persecution.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:51 PM on July 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, as someone else pointed out, you can get persecuted just for your genetics on this one. Converting to Christianity a la The Merchant of Venice may not save your bacon from persecution.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:51 PM on July 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Antisemitism doesn't make me think less of myself or my community. It makes me think less of whoever's being antisemitic.
With regard to persecution, here aren't a lot of better ways to demonstrate that whatever you're trying to get me to do by force (e.g. not be a Jew) is a bunch of shit, than trying to make me do it by force.
Also, plenty of advantages accrue to being a member of any organized ethnoreligious community. All I have to do to get access to shared cultural activities, community, intellectual tradition, friends with similar backgrounds who more or less get me, clubs and activities for my kids to enjoy, etc., is show up.
(Plenty of studies have shown that geriatric physical and mental health is strongly correlated with being part of a faith based community (any faith based community.) Secular society sneers at it, but facts is facts.)
More broadly, at the end of the day, it simply is what it is, I couldn't change it even if I wanted to.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:51 PM on July 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
With regard to persecution, here aren't a lot of better ways to demonstrate that whatever you're trying to get me to do by force (e.g. not be a Jew) is a bunch of shit, than trying to make me do it by force.
Also, plenty of advantages accrue to being a member of any organized ethnoreligious community. All I have to do to get access to shared cultural activities, community, intellectual tradition, friends with similar backgrounds who more or less get me, clubs and activities for my kids to enjoy, etc., is show up.
(Plenty of studies have shown that geriatric physical and mental health is strongly correlated with being part of a faith based community (any faith based community.) Secular society sneers at it, but facts is facts.)
More broadly, at the end of the day, it simply is what it is, I couldn't change it even if I wanted to.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:51 PM on July 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
You are getting some very flippant answers here, but the question you are asking is very profound, and one that people have pondered for a long time, Jews and non-Jews alike.
George Eliot—one of the great writers of the English language and one of the great humanists of any language—put this very question at the center of her final novel. She spent years researching and writing Daniel Deronda.
Many people wonder in this Victorian novel, “why stay a Jew? Why not be normal?” Not only Christians, but even Jews ask the question. The answer might be, “because we don’t have a choice, it is who we are” or it might be, “because being a Jew is the greatest gift. How could we refuse it?”
An interesting facet of this question is that Judaism is not an evangelical religion. Jews don’t try to convert others to Judaism. Jews are not made, they are born. Conversion to Judaism is often discouraged rather than encouraged. The fervor of evangelism is instead directed towards encouraging those born Jews to remain faithful Jews.
Every generation asks and answers this question. It’s is at the center of the Passover Seder, when the ritual says, “because on that day the Lord brought me out of Egypt, out of slavery and into freedom.”
I attended a Bat Mitvah a couple of months ago. It was beautiful, the girl was so strong, so happy. And afterwards, at the party, I thought, “this has been going on for thousands of years, from parent to child, from generation to generation, this unbroken chain.” It was profound, and very strengthening and life affirming to to see that girl to step in and own this thing and say, “yes. We will live for another generation.”
posted by Winnie the Proust at 10:57 PM on July 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
George Eliot—one of the great writers of the English language and one of the great humanists of any language—put this very question at the center of her final novel. She spent years researching and writing Daniel Deronda.
Many people wonder in this Victorian novel, “why stay a Jew? Why not be normal?” Not only Christians, but even Jews ask the question. The answer might be, “because we don’t have a choice, it is who we are” or it might be, “because being a Jew is the greatest gift. How could we refuse it?”
An interesting facet of this question is that Judaism is not an evangelical religion. Jews don’t try to convert others to Judaism. Jews are not made, they are born. Conversion to Judaism is often discouraged rather than encouraged. The fervor of evangelism is instead directed towards encouraging those born Jews to remain faithful Jews.
Every generation asks and answers this question. It’s is at the center of the Passover Seder, when the ritual says, “because on that day the Lord brought me out of Egypt, out of slavery and into freedom.”
I attended a Bat Mitvah a couple of months ago. It was beautiful, the girl was so strong, so happy. And afterwards, at the party, I thought, “this has been going on for thousands of years, from parent to child, from generation to generation, this unbroken chain.” It was profound, and very strengthening and life affirming to to see that girl to step in and own this thing and say, “yes. We will live for another generation.”
posted by Winnie the Proust at 10:57 PM on July 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
A lot of persecution has taken the form, You're not allowed to assimilate.
posted by grobstein at 11:20 PM on July 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by grobstein at 11:20 PM on July 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think persecution makes a certain kind of person more dedicated to a belief system, not less.
I think that's a human universal, I think it takes a tremendous amount of very skilful, carefully targeted and highly sympathetic interpersonal work to overcome it, and I think almost none of the people who choose Jews as a persecution target have those skills.
posted by flabdablet at 11:32 PM on July 4, 2023
I think that's a human universal, I think it takes a tremendous amount of very skilful, carefully targeted and highly sympathetic interpersonal work to overcome it, and I think almost none of the people who choose Jews as a persecution target have those skills.
posted by flabdablet at 11:32 PM on July 4, 2023
Well…my great-grandparents did. When the family came over to the United States, most of the siblings changed their names and attempted to assimilate…so much so that they became Christian Scientists. This (probably with other things) messed my paternal grandfather up quite a lot, along with fighting in the Pacific Theatre during WWII after he ran away from his family. He was obsessed with my father marrying into a high-status WASP family and was upset that he married his high school girlfriend, my mother, instead, who was at least WASP enough.
By the time I knew him he was an alcoholic, abusive, unpredictable person, who was also deeply connected to family (I can see the shadow of Shabbat in the way he would prepare the table for dinners; I can see the afikomen in the way he taped a chocolate bar under things for my sister and I to find halfway through Easter supper of all things.) I don’t know his story, not really - just the parts he told at high volume, with so many gaps. If I were writing him as a character I would called him a shredded person - these amazing, creative, musical pieces of a caring person, rent through by addiction, need to control things, clear PTSD from the war at least, and the capability to rape a child. I don’t associate his capacity for cruelty with being Jewish, at all, but I feel like the forces that tore him apart included anti-Semitism very much, perhaps most within himself.
After his death we inherited his family papers and learned about the assimilation. I’m not Jewish, especially as this is the paternal line. But it was both a shock and a recognition anyway. It makes me deeply sad sometimes. If he had practiced Judaism and married a Jewish girl, I wouldn’t exist. But at the rare times I can let myself remember how much and why I loved him despite the evil he did to me, I wish his parents had resisted a little more…maybe that would have kept things afloat. Easy to imagine when it’s just that, I guess. And for me…when I have been invited to a Shabbat or a Seder it has somehow, ghostly, felt like home.
When I started picking the ways my family would celebrate things in our home and when I was working in a food and holiday based magazine especially I included latkes, rugelach, challah, etc. and I told my kids a tiny bit about our family heritage, just the papers and assimilation. And also tales of survival followed by food. I guess I felt like the food is the part I can reclaim the least offensively.
My youngest took it in, and when one of his teachers went into detail about her trip to Auschwitz, he reacted so strongly she thought we were Jewish. He didn’t want to correct her and that’s how it kind of came full circle when she invited me to come to class to talk about our traditions and I learned about the whole thing. I cried and laughed…there you have it, my great-grandfather’s attempt at assimilation boiling down to the moment I had to explain to my son’s social justice-driven Trinidadian-Canadian teacher that my kid wasn't trying to appropriate a culture, he was just holding fragments of it (and maybe I had done the appropriation? But were those fragments mine?)
So…maybe that’s an answer too.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:20 AM on July 5, 2023 [15 favorites]
By the time I knew him he was an alcoholic, abusive, unpredictable person, who was also deeply connected to family (I can see the shadow of Shabbat in the way he would prepare the table for dinners; I can see the afikomen in the way he taped a chocolate bar under things for my sister and I to find halfway through Easter supper of all things.) I don’t know his story, not really - just the parts he told at high volume, with so many gaps. If I were writing him as a character I would called him a shredded person - these amazing, creative, musical pieces of a caring person, rent through by addiction, need to control things, clear PTSD from the war at least, and the capability to rape a child. I don’t associate his capacity for cruelty with being Jewish, at all, but I feel like the forces that tore him apart included anti-Semitism very much, perhaps most within himself.
After his death we inherited his family papers and learned about the assimilation. I’m not Jewish, especially as this is the paternal line. But it was both a shock and a recognition anyway. It makes me deeply sad sometimes. If he had practiced Judaism and married a Jewish girl, I wouldn’t exist. But at the rare times I can let myself remember how much and why I loved him despite the evil he did to me, I wish his parents had resisted a little more…maybe that would have kept things afloat. Easy to imagine when it’s just that, I guess. And for me…when I have been invited to a Shabbat or a Seder it has somehow, ghostly, felt like home.
When I started picking the ways my family would celebrate things in our home and when I was working in a food and holiday based magazine especially I included latkes, rugelach, challah, etc. and I told my kids a tiny bit about our family heritage, just the papers and assimilation. And also tales of survival followed by food. I guess I felt like the food is the part I can reclaim the least offensively.
My youngest took it in, and when one of his teachers went into detail about her trip to Auschwitz, he reacted so strongly she thought we were Jewish. He didn’t want to correct her and that’s how it kind of came full circle when she invited me to come to class to talk about our traditions and I learned about the whole thing. I cried and laughed…there you have it, my great-grandfather’s attempt at assimilation boiling down to the moment I had to explain to my son’s social justice-driven Trinidadian-Canadian teacher that my kid wasn't trying to appropriate a culture, he was just holding fragments of it (and maybe I had done the appropriation? But were those fragments mine?)
So…maybe that’s an answer too.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:20 AM on July 5, 2023 [15 favorites]
Your question is baffling.
I've never heard an antisemite say they hated a Jew because of Judaism. They hate them because they control the media, control the banks, run the government/illuminati, or any other bullshit reason a simpleton can come up with to make themself feel put-upon and downtrodden so that they can justify their hatred.
Asking why Jews don't change in order to be less loathed is like asking why black men don't just pull over and shut up when hit with sirens. It misunderstands that the oppressor doesn't need a reason to oppress because their main job is manufacturing that reason out of thin air.
posted by dobbs at 4:52 AM on July 5, 2023 [27 favorites]
I've never heard an antisemite say they hated a Jew because of Judaism. They hate them because they control the media, control the banks, run the government/illuminati, or any other bullshit reason a simpleton can come up with to make themself feel put-upon and downtrodden so that they can justify their hatred.
Asking why Jews don't change in order to be less loathed is like asking why black men don't just pull over and shut up when hit with sirens. It misunderstands that the oppressor doesn't need a reason to oppress because their main job is manufacturing that reason out of thin air.
posted by dobbs at 4:52 AM on July 5, 2023 [27 favorites]
Re: the chosen people thing
This is often misunderstood by Christians ( and others.) We were taught that we were chosen to be held to a higher standard - 613 commandments, rather than the 10 commandments in the Bible that everyone (Jewish or not) are expected to follow. It has nothing to do with G-d favoring Jews.
(Secular Jew reporting here, but one who had years of Hebrew school as a kid.)
posted by wittgenstein at 4:55 AM on July 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is often misunderstood by Christians ( and others.) We were taught that we were chosen to be held to a higher standard - 613 commandments, rather than the 10 commandments in the Bible that everyone (Jewish or not) are expected to follow. It has nothing to do with G-d favoring Jews.
(Secular Jew reporting here, but one who had years of Hebrew school as a kid.)
posted by wittgenstein at 4:55 AM on July 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Judaism is not just a religion, and it’s really important to remember that: it is an ethnic group, a genetic lineage, and a full culture of song and dress and story and food that INCLUDES religion. It’s an entire ethnicity.
Not to deny that jewish families do have a genetic lineage, but it is also useful to remember that ethnicity does not have to be genetic, several studies have compared jews and palestinians and found no genetic differences.
In other words, ethnicity, religion and genetics are all separate things you can't imply one from another even if there is a lot of correlation.
posted by Lanark at 5:32 AM on July 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Not to deny that jewish families do have a genetic lineage, but it is also useful to remember that ethnicity does not have to be genetic, several studies have compared jews and palestinians and found no genetic differences.
In other words, ethnicity, religion and genetics are all separate things you can't imply one from another even if there is a lot of correlation.
posted by Lanark at 5:32 AM on July 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
it is also useful to remember that ethnicity does not have to be genetic, several studies have compared jews and palestinians and found no genetic differences.
Yes. My comment was not intended to imply as much.
Judaism is famously a matrilineal culture, hence the ‘genetic lineage’ phrase.
It also embraces converts to Judaism fully: the Rabbinical edict is that once a person completes all the steps of conversion, it should never be spoken of again. The are fully a member of the tribe.
(Of course, it is mentioned. People are people. But the sentiment is lovely, it reminds me of marrying into a really good family - the full embrace of “you are our child now too” by the new in-laws).
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:51 AM on July 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes. My comment was not intended to imply as much.
Judaism is famously a matrilineal culture, hence the ‘genetic lineage’ phrase.
It also embraces converts to Judaism fully: the Rabbinical edict is that once a person completes all the steps of conversion, it should never be spoken of again. The are fully a member of the tribe.
(Of course, it is mentioned. People are people. But the sentiment is lovely, it reminds me of marrying into a really good family - the full embrace of “you are our child now too” by the new in-laws).
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:51 AM on July 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Antisemitism - and I’m extending the term to other non-Jewish semitic people....
How.....anachronistic? Is that even the right word? Not even wrong?
posted by atomicstone at 6:14 AM on July 5, 2023
How.....anachronistic? Is that even the right word? Not even wrong?
posted by atomicstone at 6:14 AM on July 5, 2023
How.....anachronistic? Is that even the right word? Not even wrong?
Possibly. But I’d like to think that any word used to describe “that group of people from that (hand-wavy) part of the globe who to me, that do not come from that region, look vaguely similar in ways that I do not look” is anachronistic.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:40 AM on July 5, 2023
Possibly. But I’d like to think that any word used to describe “that group of people from that (hand-wavy) part of the globe who to me, that do not come from that region, look vaguely similar in ways that I do not look” is anachronistic.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:40 AM on July 5, 2023
The answer is - in part, at least - the very nature of faith.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:24 AM on July 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:24 AM on July 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Antisemites are the ones in the wrong. Why should the Jews be the ones who have to change?
posted by corey flood at 7:31 AM on July 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by corey flood at 7:31 AM on July 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think the answer to this is larger than just the question of active or passive decision making on the part of Jews to be Jewish or not, but boils down to human nature and the nature of how ethnicity is assigned and/or embraced and how it shifts over time; very much tied up in theories of how ethnicity is formed.
Jewish people - and people of all races - don't really have a choice of whether to be or not be their ethnicity because ethnicities are both adopted by the people who decide they share a trait (which is called the instrumentalist theory of ethnicity) and they are also assigned by others and are thus inescapable by the people who have been given that label (primordialist ethnicity). Often it's a shifting combination of the two forces at work, in an action and reaction tug-of-war.
When an ethnic label has been attached to an ethnic group by others (ie primordial) with negative intentions, often there is a reaction among that ethnic group to re-entrench themselves in the values of that label in order to strengthen that common set of traditions and values to create a unified bloc of people in the group to protect themselves, because there is safety in being part of an in-group that is being persecuted by others in some way, and comfort in tradition and its associated rites.
This type of labelling and reaction has been seen throughout history in ethnic groups and not just Jews. It's self-protection, self-preservation, even though it's not what every individual person would do to protect themselves; some abandon that group, if they can feasibly integrate themselves in the persecuting ethnicity, but not everyone can pass.
posted by urbanlenny at 7:42 AM on July 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Jewish people - and people of all races - don't really have a choice of whether to be or not be their ethnicity because ethnicities are both adopted by the people who decide they share a trait (which is called the instrumentalist theory of ethnicity) and they are also assigned by others and are thus inescapable by the people who have been given that label (primordialist ethnicity). Often it's a shifting combination of the two forces at work, in an action and reaction tug-of-war.
When an ethnic label has been attached to an ethnic group by others (ie primordial) with negative intentions, often there is a reaction among that ethnic group to re-entrench themselves in the values of that label in order to strengthen that common set of traditions and values to create a unified bloc of people in the group to protect themselves, because there is safety in being part of an in-group that is being persecuted by others in some way, and comfort in tradition and its associated rites.
This type of labelling and reaction has been seen throughout history in ethnic groups and not just Jews. It's self-protection, self-preservation, even though it's not what every individual person would do to protect themselves; some abandon that group, if they can feasibly integrate themselves in the persecuting ethnicity, but not everyone can pass.
posted by urbanlenny at 7:42 AM on July 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Totally agree with the points above. Jews value their cultural and religious heritage (like so many others). Persecution often enhances, rather than diminishes affinity. And the inalienable inheritance of Jewishness as an ethnic identity is -- even when not a concept embraced by Jews themselves -- imposed by more dominant cultural forces.
Many Jews did assimilate into European cultures, under more or less duress depending on the period, from the Inquisition up through the early 20th Century. In the worst circumstances, this could save your life or be a prerequisite to gaining certain rights. In the best circumstances, aligning one's self and family closely with the rapidly rising national identities brought you closer to your neighbors, securing your social and economic position in post-Industrial Revolution, liberal society. But fat lot of good that did you come the Nuremberg Laws. Simply put, "giving up" Jewishness isn't really an option, even if you wanted to.
To make some of the analogies more concrete, Catholics have been persecuted pretty brutally throughout Great Britain and Ireland for hundreds of years and sectarian violence continues to this day. Should they have also given up and joined the Church of England? Would they have been allowed to?
A little bit of an aside, but on the topic of Jewish ethnic identities, I do think its important to emphasize that Jews are no more monolithic than other religious groups. There are the main, traditionally recognized distinct ethnic branches of the diaspora (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Mizrahi) depending on where your family settled. But there's also many more pretty unique Jewish ethnic identities across the world, including in Africa, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, etc. So best not to paint with too-wide a brush.
posted by voiceofreason at 8:29 AM on July 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Many Jews did assimilate into European cultures, under more or less duress depending on the period, from the Inquisition up through the early 20th Century. In the worst circumstances, this could save your life or be a prerequisite to gaining certain rights. In the best circumstances, aligning one's self and family closely with the rapidly rising national identities brought you closer to your neighbors, securing your social and economic position in post-Industrial Revolution, liberal society. But fat lot of good that did you come the Nuremberg Laws. Simply put, "giving up" Jewishness isn't really an option, even if you wanted to.
To make some of the analogies more concrete, Catholics have been persecuted pretty brutally throughout Great Britain and Ireland for hundreds of years and sectarian violence continues to this day. Should they have also given up and joined the Church of England? Would they have been allowed to?
A little bit of an aside, but on the topic of Jewish ethnic identities, I do think its important to emphasize that Jews are no more monolithic than other religious groups. There are the main, traditionally recognized distinct ethnic branches of the diaspora (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Mizrahi) depending on where your family settled. But there's also many more pretty unique Jewish ethnic identities across the world, including in Africa, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, etc. So best not to paint with too-wide a brush.
posted by voiceofreason at 8:29 AM on July 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I love all these answers, and I don’t think there is or can be one definitive one (plus there’s a classic trope in Judaism, “Two Jews = three opinions”).
But I’ll add a midrash (rabbinic story passed down by tradition, often found in the Talmud) that I’ve always loved:
When G-d was trying to decide which nation to give the Torah to, he went one by one to all the nations on earth, asking whether they would accept it. And each nation asked, “What’s in it?” To which G-d would answer with some of the commandments that keeping the Torah entailed. And one by one, each nation would say, “No thanks, we’re not interested.” Finally, G-d came to the Jews and asked if they wanted the Torah, and the Jews responded “Na’aseh v’nishma - “we will do, and we will listen.” We accepted without even knowing the terms ahead of time.
The midrash continues that that commitment wasn’t enough for G-d. So he asked the Jews what collateral they could provide, to show that they would keep the promise they had chosen. They said “we promise on the strength of our ancestors.” G-d said that was nice, but they were in the past and not good security for the future. So the people said “our prophets are our guarantors” - they prophesied that we would merit this gift. And again G-d said that it was not enough. So then the people said “Baneinu orvim otanu” - our children will be our guarantors. And that was the promise that G-d accepted in return for giving the Torah.
So when people ask me why I keep Judaism the way I do, my answer is that it’s because my grandmother’s grandmother’s grandmother’s grandmother’s grandmother all the way back to Mount Sinai promised I would, and who am I to break the chain?
Of course, a few days after those original Jews made that promise, they were already worshiping a golden calf while the words were still sizzling into the tablets on the way down the mountain, so you know, your miles may vary.
posted by Mchelly at 8:44 AM on July 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
But I’ll add a midrash (rabbinic story passed down by tradition, often found in the Talmud) that I’ve always loved:
When G-d was trying to decide which nation to give the Torah to, he went one by one to all the nations on earth, asking whether they would accept it. And each nation asked, “What’s in it?” To which G-d would answer with some of the commandments that keeping the Torah entailed. And one by one, each nation would say, “No thanks, we’re not interested.” Finally, G-d came to the Jews and asked if they wanted the Torah, and the Jews responded “Na’aseh v’nishma - “we will do, and we will listen.” We accepted without even knowing the terms ahead of time.
The midrash continues that that commitment wasn’t enough for G-d. So he asked the Jews what collateral they could provide, to show that they would keep the promise they had chosen. They said “we promise on the strength of our ancestors.” G-d said that was nice, but they were in the past and not good security for the future. So the people said “our prophets are our guarantors” - they prophesied that we would merit this gift. And again G-d said that it was not enough. So then the people said “Baneinu orvim otanu” - our children will be our guarantors. And that was the promise that G-d accepted in return for giving the Torah.
So when people ask me why I keep Judaism the way I do, my answer is that it’s because my grandmother’s grandmother’s grandmother’s grandmother’s grandmother all the way back to Mount Sinai promised I would, and who am I to break the chain?
Of course, a few days after those original Jews made that promise, they were already worshiping a golden calf while the words were still sizzling into the tablets on the way down the mountain, so you know, your miles may vary.
posted by Mchelly at 8:44 AM on July 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
Handwavey or not, antisemitism has a specific history and definition, ironic as it is. We have other words for anti Arab hate and anti Islam hate (I would HATE for gatekeepers of this word to be seen as anti Muslims or arabs!).
posted by atomicstone at 9:19 AM on July 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by atomicstone at 9:19 AM on July 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
I guess "strong in-group with liveable external antagonism" is quite culturally stable. It takes a lot to leave your family and culture.
In addition, throughout history there have always been locations where Jews could live more freely even if imperfectly. So there has always been an alternative to assimilation, an existing community to connect to. With that choice, you can see that even if some people assimilate, and others are killed, it's always possible for a group to survive somewhere.
posted by plonkee at 9:46 AM on July 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
In addition, throughout history there have always been locations where Jews could live more freely even if imperfectly. So there has always been an alternative to assimilation, an existing community to connect to. With that choice, you can see that even if some people assimilate, and others are killed, it's always possible for a group to survive somewhere.
posted by plonkee at 9:46 AM on July 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
It calls to us, its the way we are, its the blood in our veins, the lion by our side. Our songs and prayers speak of l'dor v'dor - from generation to generation, and we look to raise Jewish children (see: rationale against intermarriage).
A lot of synagogues engage with patrilineal Jews ("Jews?") or others with fragmented Jewish heritage. Conversion is possible for those who feel called / choose to become part of the Tribe.
posted by p_nathan at 9:50 AM on July 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
A lot of synagogues engage with patrilineal Jews ("Jews?") or others with fragmented Jewish heritage. Conversion is possible for those who feel called / choose to become part of the Tribe.
posted by p_nathan at 9:50 AM on July 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is a bizarre question, akin to asking Black people why they persist in being Black. I’m an atheist. I’m also a Jew. Jewishness is a culture that also often, but not always, has a religion attached. The older I get, the more I realize how much of my personality comes from being Jewish, despite being raised by atheist parents who were themselves raised by atheists. It’s in my speech, my thought patterns, my moral values and ethics. It’s why my family has always valued education more than pretty much anything else. (“Better there’s books on the shelves than steak on the table!”) It’s why I have the facial features and general build that I do. I can’t stop being Jewish.
Also, what Mizu said about spite. For real.
posted by MexicanYenta at 10:09 AM on July 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
Also, what Mizu said about spite. For real.
posted by MexicanYenta at 10:09 AM on July 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
So then the people said “Baneinu orvim otanu” - our children will be our guarantors. And that was the promise that G-d accepted in return for giving the Torah.
Even reading these words, my eyes filled with tears. Yes, and YES.
What you wrote about our grandmother and great-grandmothers: I feel this every time when I am singing in shul on Sabbath — I feel myself as part of a wave of prayer that encircles the entire globe every seven days, a wave that literally flows over the earth, following the path of the sun, an exaltation and wishes for ourselves and all tribes…. and that this has been happening for ***7,000 years***, this prayer, and me just a drop in an ocean of praise and joy, and I am both tiny in this and essential in the way that every drop in the ocean is essential to the movement of life and waves in the whole, v’imru amen.
Why would I ever give this up just to not be threatened?
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:19 AM on July 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
Even reading these words, my eyes filled with tears. Yes, and YES.
What you wrote about our grandmother and great-grandmothers: I feel this every time when I am singing in shul on Sabbath — I feel myself as part of a wave of prayer that encircles the entire globe every seven days, a wave that literally flows over the earth, following the path of the sun, an exaltation and wishes for ourselves and all tribes…. and that this has been happening for ***7,000 years***, this prayer, and me just a drop in an ocean of praise and joy, and I am both tiny in this and essential in the way that every drop in the ocean is essential to the movement of life and waves in the whole, v’imru amen.
Why would I ever give this up just to not be threatened?
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:19 AM on July 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
Whether I count as Jewish is a matter of opinion and belief (patrilineal Jew, atheist, it's complicated, blah blah blah). Whether I feel like that heritage is something I get to claim for myself is equally complicated and if you ask me on different days you might get different answers.
But in all the wrestling I've done with that question I have given very little thought to "oh, but people hate Jews, why are you even thinking about this, why not cheerfully fling the whole question into the sun?" I don't understand why I would drop the whole question just to appease some bigots.
A, appeasing bigots isn't a great reason to do much of anything, and B, it wouldn't do me any damn good if my concern were personal safety. People who hate Jewish people are not going to decide that I'm fine, actually. There's a guy on trial in my city right now for murdering my colleagues and fellow citizens in a synagogue shooting. I promise you that guy doesn't wish me well and would not suddenly decide that I'm a-okay if I explained to him that actually my Jewish grandmother disowned me at birth because my mother was a shiksa, so I'm not really one of those people he hates. I feel entirely certain he doesn't have a nuanced opinion on patrilineal descent and whether it matters that I didn't have a bat mitzvah. Throwing my ancestry under the bus would not save me from that guy or any of his friends, and I wouldn't do it if it did. Spite or honoring the ancestors or just deciding who I want to be in community with and who I very much do not want to be in community with are all part of the equation.
posted by Stacey at 11:05 AM on July 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
But in all the wrestling I've done with that question I have given very little thought to "oh, but people hate Jews, why are you even thinking about this, why not cheerfully fling the whole question into the sun?" I don't understand why I would drop the whole question just to appease some bigots.
A, appeasing bigots isn't a great reason to do much of anything, and B, it wouldn't do me any damn good if my concern were personal safety. People who hate Jewish people are not going to decide that I'm fine, actually. There's a guy on trial in my city right now for murdering my colleagues and fellow citizens in a synagogue shooting. I promise you that guy doesn't wish me well and would not suddenly decide that I'm a-okay if I explained to him that actually my Jewish grandmother disowned me at birth because my mother was a shiksa, so I'm not really one of those people he hates. I feel entirely certain he doesn't have a nuanced opinion on patrilineal descent and whether it matters that I didn't have a bat mitzvah. Throwing my ancestry under the bus would not save me from that guy or any of his friends, and I wouldn't do it if it did. Spite or honoring the ancestors or just deciding who I want to be in community with and who I very much do not want to be in community with are all part of the equation.
posted by Stacey at 11:05 AM on July 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
I really second what MexicanYenta said about it being a bizarre question to ask, like asking a Black person why they continue to be Black even though racism is so prevalent and hard. I don’t think it’s “bad” that your friend asked this question because they’re coming from a place of genuinely wanting to understand. But what I immediately notice is that they must easily fit into what society has deemed a group of power, like a straight white cis man who’s financially secure. Maybe they’re not but I feel anyone in a marginalized group could understand why someone would continue with an identity that’s discriminated against or even downright persecuted. It’s because people choose to and/or because it isn’t a choice and they have to. There are so many reasons and they are all valid. Awkward wording aside, I’m glad your friend asked and is ready to listen. I hope they are inspired to take what they hear one step further to find new ways to support Jewish people in their community, for example. It can be scary not to know and it’s true that people in marginalized groups shouldn’t have to educate people belonging to the majority. However, there are always some people willing and excited about having a genuine exchange of ideas and values and histories in the name of solidarity and understanding! It
posted by smorgasbord at 1:35 PM on July 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 1:35 PM on July 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
i think it's dumb to shame someone for a question that produced such fascinating responses, and that people shouldn't do it.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:23 PM on July 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 3:23 PM on July 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
Secular/cultural but strongly identified Jew here. "You don't get to tell me what to be" is an ethos that is deeply and lastingly embedded in Judaism. Perhaps I'm begging the question, but this is all I can say about it.
posted by less-of-course at 3:25 PM on July 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by less-of-course at 3:25 PM on July 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is a bizarre question, akin to asking Black people why they persist in being Black.
And yet there is a history of Black Americans choosing to pass as white. This is a fraught and complex topic, and one which generates a lot of anger but also comprehension. But it's not absurd. It is difficult and complex.
The short novel, Passing, by Nella Larsen, published in 1929, is a master class in the complex attitudes towards passing that existed in the Black community in the early 20th century. There's anger directed towards people who leave the Black community to "become white" full time, and also a good deal of resignation. But in the book, even some of the Blacks who are most angry will sometimes themselves choose to "pass" if it means they can have a nice lemonade at the fancy hotel restaurant that doesn't serve Blacks.
There's a fascinating intersection of personal choice, community membership, and judgement that plays into these decisions. I expect it is similarly complex for Jews who are facing questions of assimilation. There are potential benefits, but also for some people a deep loss of core identity.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 10:14 AM on July 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
And yet there is a history of Black Americans choosing to pass as white. This is a fraught and complex topic, and one which generates a lot of anger but also comprehension. But it's not absurd. It is difficult and complex.
The short novel, Passing, by Nella Larsen, published in 1929, is a master class in the complex attitudes towards passing that existed in the Black community in the early 20th century. There's anger directed towards people who leave the Black community to "become white" full time, and also a good deal of resignation. But in the book, even some of the Blacks who are most angry will sometimes themselves choose to "pass" if it means they can have a nice lemonade at the fancy hotel restaurant that doesn't serve Blacks.
There's a fascinating intersection of personal choice, community membership, and judgement that plays into these decisions. I expect it is similarly complex for Jews who are facing questions of assimilation. There are potential benefits, but also for some people a deep loss of core identity.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 10:14 AM on July 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for the responses. Even as a a non Jew I find them interesting.
My friend writes: "Thanks to all the people who responded to my query. I appreciate the time you took to reply. Your comments give me food for thought."
posted by Kevin S at 3:24 PM on July 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
My friend writes: "Thanks to all the people who responded to my query. I appreciate the time you took to reply. Your comments give me food for thought."
posted by Kevin S at 3:24 PM on July 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am a quarter Jewish on my father's side but still identify as Jewish from a cultural/secular standpoint and have since I was very little. I agree wholeheartedly with something someone said above which is that it calls to you, in spite of everything. It just does, and I grew up in a Hindu-Christian household. My parents are also culturally Jewish but are very dedicated to their other beliefs so they don't identify with it in the same way I do.
However, yes, I am afraid. I've experienced antisemitism since middle school. I am afraid to go to a synagogue. Two temples in my hometown were the targets of violent hate crimes. Friends of friends died. I am still at odds with myself over whether my grief is valid since I have never been to temple. But my identity will not change, in the same way I will not change the fact that I am queer, no matter the threats and the violence. It's who I am. Why deny myself the ability to be true to what has been my emotional home in so many ways since I was a little girl?
No. It's mine, and I will not let fear take it from me.
posted by The Adventure Begins at 10:33 PM on July 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
However, yes, I am afraid. I've experienced antisemitism since middle school. I am afraid to go to a synagogue. Two temples in my hometown were the targets of violent hate crimes. Friends of friends died. I am still at odds with myself over whether my grief is valid since I have never been to temple. But my identity will not change, in the same way I will not change the fact that I am queer, no matter the threats and the violence. It's who I am. Why deny myself the ability to be true to what has been my emotional home in so many ways since I was a little girl?
No. It's mine, and I will not let fear take it from me.
posted by The Adventure Begins at 10:33 PM on July 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:09 PM on July 4, 2023 [14 favorites]