If you ever got close to a human
June 27, 2023 8:41 PM Subscribe
I think I need space from a decade-long friend. I've learned a lot about friendship and cultivating secure connection in the past decade, but also struggle with codependency and finding the right/healthy point of connection.
How do I find a place that feels most healthy in one of my more long-term, and also more difficult-at-times, friendships?
Context here: I have been managing my people-pleasing tendencies born from childhood stuff for most of my adult life (I'm mid-30s now). I'm getting much better at having explicit conversations about dynamics, noticing what I'm feeling, and cultivating stable relationships. I have several close, secure-attached friends -- yay! However, I have struggled the most with one of my closest friends, who I met at one of my most unhealthy early-20s times.
K is a kind, devoted, thoughtful friend. We got close when we dated in the same city a decade ago, and stayed close after breaking up; visited each other's cities a couple times a year for many years; and now are again very close geographically. K supported me through some tough times, especially earlier in our friendship, and I supported K through tough times too. For the first time in a long time, we hang out about once or twice a month for a weekend! Yay! We have tons in common and go on lots of adventures.
EXCEPT. It can be tricky. I noticed that I felt very emotionally exhausted after our time together - and our time essentially becomes an endless monologue of K seeking affirmation about their life + coolness + desirability, or about how suepr super close we are, or treating me as a sounding board for the same panoply of issues with their ex. K went through a nasty breakup a couple years back and I provided a LOT of support for the first year. After this time, about a year ago from now, I realized I was feeling pretty resentful and zapped after our visits. After introspecting a bit, I realized I wasn't getting my needs met by my time with K, and was falling into people-pleasing patterns. I was mistaking affirming K for how close besties we were with actually feeling that sustaining intimacy and closeness.
I asked for some adjustments in our dynamic, then a no-contact break for several weeks to figure out what was going on. We took the break, and afterwards I gave a very honest accounting of things. K listened and affirmed it, and it seemed promising that we'd hit a better balance (although K didn't really apologize for anything - I don't think there was anything to apologize for, just incompatibility).
...
A year passes
...
Shit! We're back in the same dynamic! I'm seeing K more than ever. Meanwhile, we've both got a lot of other things going on in our lives too - friends, dating, hobbies, etc. I'm feeling happy and the least mentally ill I've ever felt. Fucking wild!! But my time with K is getting draining again, in ways mostly similar to before. K and I continue to have a bit of a mismatch with values and goals. (Ask MeFI sidebar: I know whenever someone describes something like this, they tend to come across as judgmental assholes (b/c it's making a judgment in friendship which can suck!) but I'll try to be honest with y'all.) Basically, K leans on our friendship as a pro-flexing, gassing up space to affirm our shared identities (queer, etc.) and to affirm how they are cool and stylish and desirable. While I consider myself very pro-sex, pro-queers-being-fucking-badass, etc., the specific demands of affirmation feel very... inward-focused and not really my emotional and personal focus. I also have a specific stumbling block on K's focus on being cool (their words), because for me, I am super uninterested in coolness and social desirability and value authenticity, warmth, and empathy most highly. K will sometimes do things like brag about my accomplishments to other people in a way that makes it clear that they are aware of some amount of social cache I have (??) and internally I just think that's a combination of circumstance and privilege and random factors - in another cultural moment or context, I'd be a super huge weirdo in an undesirable way, and I'm good with that!!! I also am ace and don't date, so the physical focus on desirability is sort of not my thing. Granted, K can be plenty warm and empathetic and everything!! They're great, and I don't need every friend to approach the world in exactly the same way. But, yeah, I think you can see a bit of what I struggle with on the values side (I try to be generous and see this as K also just working through their anxiety and fears of exclusion, which is real!!, but it grates on me).
More practically, they are constantly stoned when we hang out. Like almost every minute. I'm sober. I actually fell off the wagon recently, and I was really disappointed with K's level of support (minimal to the point of being almost cagey). It sucked. When they get stoned-stoned (like noticably unsober, which is usually only at night), they are extra hard to relate to, but usually they're just ever so slightly tipsy. Whatever. At one point in the winter, I had talked with them about how I sometimes feel weird relating to them when they're fried; they changed their behavior one hangout, and then had reverted by the next. I don't think they want to "change" for me nor do I think it's appropriate to ask them. I just don't really like it. And the specific dynamic of people pleasing someone with constant substance use is the literal exact nature of my childhood abuse. lol.
After my slip/relapse, and after their muted reaction left me feeling resentful, I again asked for some space, but this time just for a week. When we started talking again, I AGAIN immediately slipped my boundaries (went right back into supporting their ex stuff, agreed to a plan I didn't really want to do). I didn't really get into how hurt I felt about the lack of support around using b/c I feel like they signaled they would see it as a judgment of them. And yet. I realized how much of my relapse and codependency were combined for me - that is, I tended to get high and drunk to be socially pleasing to others, and that was the nature of this time, too. It's not good for me.
Obviously, so much of my behavior in this friendship is textbook codependence. But I'm out here trying to take care of a very significant, long-term friendship and be real and show up with my feelings! Grah! Sorry, it's frustrating. I truly am much healthier and more securely attached in friendships in many areas of my life than I was a decade ago. But this friendship continues to challenge me.
I'd love to hear if others have navigated a similar situation, or if you have thoughts on this one. What's a good level to hit? As I write this all out, I notice that I have many more complaints than warm things to say, which is sad. I think I just feel sad in general about the ways I've felt exhausted and disappointed in our friendship, despite there being a very sweet core of care and connected experience together. Thanks for your time.
Context here: I have been managing my people-pleasing tendencies born from childhood stuff for most of my adult life (I'm mid-30s now). I'm getting much better at having explicit conversations about dynamics, noticing what I'm feeling, and cultivating stable relationships. I have several close, secure-attached friends -- yay! However, I have struggled the most with one of my closest friends, who I met at one of my most unhealthy early-20s times.
K is a kind, devoted, thoughtful friend. We got close when we dated in the same city a decade ago, and stayed close after breaking up; visited each other's cities a couple times a year for many years; and now are again very close geographically. K supported me through some tough times, especially earlier in our friendship, and I supported K through tough times too. For the first time in a long time, we hang out about once or twice a month for a weekend! Yay! We have tons in common and go on lots of adventures.
EXCEPT. It can be tricky. I noticed that I felt very emotionally exhausted after our time together - and our time essentially becomes an endless monologue of K seeking affirmation about their life + coolness + desirability, or about how suepr super close we are, or treating me as a sounding board for the same panoply of issues with their ex. K went through a nasty breakup a couple years back and I provided a LOT of support for the first year. After this time, about a year ago from now, I realized I was feeling pretty resentful and zapped after our visits. After introspecting a bit, I realized I wasn't getting my needs met by my time with K, and was falling into people-pleasing patterns. I was mistaking affirming K for how close besties we were with actually feeling that sustaining intimacy and closeness.
I asked for some adjustments in our dynamic, then a no-contact break for several weeks to figure out what was going on. We took the break, and afterwards I gave a very honest accounting of things. K listened and affirmed it, and it seemed promising that we'd hit a better balance (although K didn't really apologize for anything - I don't think there was anything to apologize for, just incompatibility).
...
A year passes
...
Shit! We're back in the same dynamic! I'm seeing K more than ever. Meanwhile, we've both got a lot of other things going on in our lives too - friends, dating, hobbies, etc. I'm feeling happy and the least mentally ill I've ever felt. Fucking wild!! But my time with K is getting draining again, in ways mostly similar to before. K and I continue to have a bit of a mismatch with values and goals. (Ask MeFI sidebar: I know whenever someone describes something like this, they tend to come across as judgmental assholes (b/c it's making a judgment in friendship which can suck!) but I'll try to be honest with y'all.) Basically, K leans on our friendship as a pro-flexing, gassing up space to affirm our shared identities (queer, etc.) and to affirm how they are cool and stylish and desirable. While I consider myself very pro-sex, pro-queers-being-fucking-badass, etc., the specific demands of affirmation feel very... inward-focused and not really my emotional and personal focus. I also have a specific stumbling block on K's focus on being cool (their words), because for me, I am super uninterested in coolness and social desirability and value authenticity, warmth, and empathy most highly. K will sometimes do things like brag about my accomplishments to other people in a way that makes it clear that they are aware of some amount of social cache I have (??) and internally I just think that's a combination of circumstance and privilege and random factors - in another cultural moment or context, I'd be a super huge weirdo in an undesirable way, and I'm good with that!!! I also am ace and don't date, so the physical focus on desirability is sort of not my thing. Granted, K can be plenty warm and empathetic and everything!! They're great, and I don't need every friend to approach the world in exactly the same way. But, yeah, I think you can see a bit of what I struggle with on the values side (I try to be generous and see this as K also just working through their anxiety and fears of exclusion, which is real!!, but it grates on me).
More practically, they are constantly stoned when we hang out. Like almost every minute. I'm sober. I actually fell off the wagon recently, and I was really disappointed with K's level of support (minimal to the point of being almost cagey). It sucked. When they get stoned-stoned (like noticably unsober, which is usually only at night), they are extra hard to relate to, but usually they're just ever so slightly tipsy. Whatever. At one point in the winter, I had talked with them about how I sometimes feel weird relating to them when they're fried; they changed their behavior one hangout, and then had reverted by the next. I don't think they want to "change" for me nor do I think it's appropriate to ask them. I just don't really like it. And the specific dynamic of people pleasing someone with constant substance use is the literal exact nature of my childhood abuse. lol.
After my slip/relapse, and after their muted reaction left me feeling resentful, I again asked for some space, but this time just for a week. When we started talking again, I AGAIN immediately slipped my boundaries (went right back into supporting their ex stuff, agreed to a plan I didn't really want to do). I didn't really get into how hurt I felt about the lack of support around using b/c I feel like they signaled they would see it as a judgment of them. And yet. I realized how much of my relapse and codependency were combined for me - that is, I tended to get high and drunk to be socially pleasing to others, and that was the nature of this time, too. It's not good for me.
Obviously, so much of my behavior in this friendship is textbook codependence. But I'm out here trying to take care of a very significant, long-term friendship and be real and show up with my feelings! Grah! Sorry, it's frustrating. I truly am much healthier and more securely attached in friendships in many areas of my life than I was a decade ago. But this friendship continues to challenge me.
I'd love to hear if others have navigated a similar situation, or if you have thoughts on this one. What's a good level to hit? As I write this all out, I notice that I have many more complaints than warm things to say, which is sad. I think I just feel sad in general about the ways I've felt exhausted and disappointed in our friendship, despite there being a very sweet core of care and connected experience together. Thanks for your time.
Best answer: I feel like you’re using a lot of therapy language to describe what’s really just two people who have kind of grown apart. It’s not necessarily your codependence or people pleasing tendencies that are driving some of the difficulties here. You guys are just different. Some people really value a friendship where they affirm each other and build each other up. Some people want to feel cool and enjoy having that validated by their friends. And if your friend is a person who desires romantic relationships, they may want to talk about that more than you do. You’re sober and they use substances sometimes. The differences go on.
None of that is inherently problematic; it’s just different from where you are in life. You don’t need to handle that with huge conversations or cutting your friend off and reintroducing them multiple times or anything of the sort. You can just start to step back a little. Be busy more. Try to expand your friendships a bit. And when you do hang out, be prepared to re-route the conversation a bit if they’re going on and on about something that’s just not of interest to you. It doesn’t need to be dramatic or all or nothing. Friendships change and we adapt with them.
Of course if you want to cut this person out, you can. But I would encourage you to remember that this is a normal human experience and not necessarily something we need to pathologize with mental health terminology. We lose friends and gain friends and grow along the way, and it’s all ok.
If you DO keep this person as a friend, I would encourage you to really work at just accepting them for who they are. You seem to slightly judge their desire for coolness or desirability, but it’s so normal and hums to want to be desired and like who we are, which for many people means feeling “cool”. The wonderful thing about friendship is the way we can befriend SO many different kinds of people and keep those relationships alive despite those differences.
Good luck!
posted by Amy93 at 9:07 PM on June 27, 2023 [39 favorites]
None of that is inherently problematic; it’s just different from where you are in life. You don’t need to handle that with huge conversations or cutting your friend off and reintroducing them multiple times or anything of the sort. You can just start to step back a little. Be busy more. Try to expand your friendships a bit. And when you do hang out, be prepared to re-route the conversation a bit if they’re going on and on about something that’s just not of interest to you. It doesn’t need to be dramatic or all or nothing. Friendships change and we adapt with them.
Of course if you want to cut this person out, you can. But I would encourage you to remember that this is a normal human experience and not necessarily something we need to pathologize with mental health terminology. We lose friends and gain friends and grow along the way, and it’s all ok.
If you DO keep this person as a friend, I would encourage you to really work at just accepting them for who they are. You seem to slightly judge their desire for coolness or desirability, but it’s so normal and hums to want to be desired and like who we are, which for many people means feeling “cool”. The wonderful thing about friendship is the way we can befriend SO many different kinds of people and keep those relationships alive despite those differences.
Good luck!
posted by Amy93 at 9:07 PM on June 27, 2023 [39 favorites]
Something to add -- I think their desires and what they are vocalizing and their approach to it isn't inherently bad, like maybe they feel safe enough to be vulnerable with you and that's awesome, but if it isn't compatible with you, it isn't and you don't actually have to listen to it. Sometimes we just focus on details we don't like about people because we want to figure out whether we want to spend time with them or not.
Are you also giving yourself permission to focus on what you like and dislike? Do you let yourself say what you want to do and what you dislike? It can be rough being a recovering people pleaser, and to remember that people also like to hear whether you like or dislike something. Even different opinions or pushing back is a form of conversation -- do you feel comfortable doing that with this friend? Would they welcome hearing you disagree and engage about it?
posted by yueliang at 9:12 PM on June 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Are you also giving yourself permission to focus on what you like and dislike? Do you let yourself say what you want to do and what you dislike? It can be rough being a recovering people pleaser, and to remember that people also like to hear whether you like or dislike something. Even different opinions or pushing back is a form of conversation -- do you feel comfortable doing that with this friend? Would they welcome hearing you disagree and engage about it?
posted by yueliang at 9:12 PM on June 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Would it feel ok to just communicate that you need to have less together time? It sounds like the no contact breaks have been useful, so maybe just being clear that you need to ramp down togetherness will also work. Entire weekends are exhausting even when you’re fully aligned with someone, but when you’re not they can really be a drain. I would try some set length hangouts instead of all day/night/weekends. I think it’s also really great that you have explicitly said things in the past, and this can probably be another one of those times. I wouldn’t center it on them, but rather on you needing more space to be around sober people for your own health and growth, so can we make a specific plan to do a thing instead of having multiday hangs? Because honestly it does sound like that’s what you need.
I know that for me finding a sober queer family has involved moving away from some relationships that I really value. I’m glad that I didn’t snap them off completely but just ramped down contact.
posted by Bottlecap at 9:16 PM on June 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I know that for me finding a sober queer family has involved moving away from some relationships that I really value. I’m glad that I didn’t snap them off completely but just ramped down contact.
posted by Bottlecap at 9:16 PM on June 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I'm not trying to be flippant, but: all these words simply add up to the fact that you are more emotionally mature than your friend. Which is not uncommon. However, I would say that you are at the lifestage in which these mismatched friendships often start naturally drying up, so it's not surprising that you're looking for an exit. This can be a weirder experience in the queer world, though, because straight people often pair off in traditionally domestic and child-having ways, which accelerates the whole process. A partner who's honest about not wanting to socialize with Stoner Friend, or who says no WAY are you hanging out with THAT GUY instead of taking care of our newborn, or whatever, tends to be pretty clarifying for people. Without similar pressures, it can feel tougher to find your way forward. Especially since part of the narrative of queer culture is that we must be ultraloyal to friends because they are chosen family.
But valuing friends does not mean forcing a friendship to continue when it is naturally petering out, which it sounds like it is. Give yourself permission to let it peter out. Don't respond to texts about annoying things. Don't go places you don't want to go. Don't get stoned. Don't continue conversations you aren't enjoying, as if you are a passenger on a bus with a very talkative driver who has locked all the doors. Remember that you can also drive the bus. Or else signal to be let off the bus entirely ("Well, I'm beat today, thanks for inviting me out, but I'm going home now").
However: I would not do some kind of formal friendship breakup. This seems to be a common temptation among people fluent in therapy culture, and I would just remind you that therapy is not real life, and that formalizing a natural emotional shift can in fact be counterproductive and hurtful. People on the receiving end don't tend to notice/care about a friendship that steadily fades, but people who have been specifically told, "I need to stop being friends with you! For valid reasons!," will carry that shit for years. It doesn't matter how valid your reasons are or how much less anxiety-inducing you would find it to set a firm definition on this relationship. On a human level, it's almost always a mistake. So just don't.
(If you do do it, DEFINITELY do not put it in writing. No texts, no emails, no beautiful letters. Do not give this already insecure person words to reread and obsess over.)
I say this all as someone who has been thoroughly therapized, btw. I'm not knocking that process or its general emotional goals. But its guidelines can easily be co-opted into a stunted and dehumanizing cultural construct that wreaks havoc on personal relationships. Like, it is almost a foreign language from actual emotional intelligence. (I'm not saying you are emotionally unintelligent! To the contrary, you're clearly very perceptive and value genuine connection, which is all you really need.)
posted by desert outpost at 11:12 PM on June 27, 2023 [31 favorites]
But valuing friends does not mean forcing a friendship to continue when it is naturally petering out, which it sounds like it is. Give yourself permission to let it peter out. Don't respond to texts about annoying things. Don't go places you don't want to go. Don't get stoned. Don't continue conversations you aren't enjoying, as if you are a passenger on a bus with a very talkative driver who has locked all the doors. Remember that you can also drive the bus. Or else signal to be let off the bus entirely ("Well, I'm beat today, thanks for inviting me out, but I'm going home now").
However: I would not do some kind of formal friendship breakup. This seems to be a common temptation among people fluent in therapy culture, and I would just remind you that therapy is not real life, and that formalizing a natural emotional shift can in fact be counterproductive and hurtful. People on the receiving end don't tend to notice/care about a friendship that steadily fades, but people who have been specifically told, "I need to stop being friends with you! For valid reasons!," will carry that shit for years. It doesn't matter how valid your reasons are or how much less anxiety-inducing you would find it to set a firm definition on this relationship. On a human level, it's almost always a mistake. So just don't.
(If you do do it, DEFINITELY do not put it in writing. No texts, no emails, no beautiful letters. Do not give this already insecure person words to reread and obsess over.)
I say this all as someone who has been thoroughly therapized, btw. I'm not knocking that process or its general emotional goals. But its guidelines can easily be co-opted into a stunted and dehumanizing cultural construct that wreaks havoc on personal relationships. Like, it is almost a foreign language from actual emotional intelligence. (I'm not saying you are emotionally unintelligent! To the contrary, you're clearly very perceptive and value genuine connection, which is all you really need.)
posted by desert outpost at 11:12 PM on June 27, 2023 [31 favorites]
“I am a little busy as have started this hobby”
“Sorry I haven’t responded to your text on time, I am just trying to cut down my social media use”
No drama. Just some distance. Your friend does not need diagnosing or fixing. You have grown apart but would like to remain friends of some form, not this form. You already had your Big Chat.
posted by moiraine at 11:29 PM on June 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
“Sorry I haven’t responded to your text on time, I am just trying to cut down my social media use”
No drama. Just some distance. Your friend does not need diagnosing or fixing. You have grown apart but would like to remain friends of some form, not this form. You already had your Big Chat.
posted by moiraine at 11:29 PM on June 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
I second Moiraine above- you value and care about this person, but the friendship is draining you. Can' you cut down on the time you spend with them, like to once a month? I don't think you need to have a formal conversation about it (unless they ask for reasons)- you can just say you're busy with other things and need more time to yourself. I think establishing boundaries and resetting the friendship style - not a temporary, scheduled break, but shifting into a looser 'friend I hang out with once a month and text with once a week or so' will fulfill your goals. I had some more intense friendships in my 20s that faded into looser, more "adult" friendships in my 30s naturally, as people moved, had kids, career demands, new partnerships, etc. Many friends I used to see multiple times a week I now only see a few times a year but our friendships still feel close and healthy. You seem like the more mature one in this friendship so it might just be time for you to steer this friendship into something less intense that nurtures rather than drains you.
posted by emd3737 at 1:58 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 1:58 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think the "coolness" issue here is a red herring. This person uses in what appears to be a problematic way, uses consistently around their sober friend who they say they're so very very close to, even though you've asked them to stop/cut down/said this is bad for you, and didn't support you in a relapse from your sobriety, which you value. I don't understand why you feel you can't communicate openly about their substance use problem as it affects you. You mention being worried about being judgmental, but this person says they strongly value your friendship and consider you two "besties," and the reality is that their problematic use has brought them to the brink of losing your friendship whether they know it or not. I'd draw a boundary around them using during your interactions -- "To bolster my sobriety, I no longer want to hang out with you if you've been using. If I think you're high when we hang out, I'm going home and will be upset you didn't honor my boundary around this." Do that, and then see if they're less exhausting to be around when you're both sober (or if their inability to manage their potential addiction leads to more space from them for you).
posted by shadygrove at 3:03 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by shadygrove at 3:03 AM on June 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: One really obvious boundary you could set here is that you don't hang out with them when they're so stoned you have trouble relating to them. Like, when they're "stoned-stoned," as you describe it, what's stopping you from just leaving the situation, saying, "Hey, I love you but I'm not up for this tonight, I'll see you soon!"?
Strongly agree with those suggesting you plan more time-limited hangs with this person, and I'd build on that by saying you should have an exit strategy - like, if you're not having a good time, you are allowed to leave and given that you know that sometimes you don't have a good time with this friend, you should have a plan
You are allowed to say, "I'm excited to hang out with you today but I have to take off at 8," or, "OK, I need to head out now - the next bus isn't for an hour and I have stuff I need to get done at home," or whatever. For me, it's a little harder to get rid of people who are visiting my own home but try to remember that it's totally OK for you to say, "I'm heading out to do an errand, can I walk you to the subway/drop you off somewhere on the way/call you an Uber?" or even just, "OK, I need to go to bed now!" If there are specific places/types of hangouts that are particularly hard for you to escape, avoid them.
posted by mskyle at 4:05 AM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Strongly agree with those suggesting you plan more time-limited hangs with this person, and I'd build on that by saying you should have an exit strategy - like, if you're not having a good time, you are allowed to leave and given that you know that sometimes you don't have a good time with this friend, you should have a plan
You are allowed to say, "I'm excited to hang out with you today but I have to take off at 8," or, "OK, I need to head out now - the next bus isn't for an hour and I have stuff I need to get done at home," or whatever. For me, it's a little harder to get rid of people who are visiting my own home but try to remember that it's totally OK for you to say, "I'm heading out to do an errand, can I walk you to the subway/drop you off somewhere on the way/call you an Uber?" or even just, "OK, I need to go to bed now!" If there are specific places/types of hangouts that are particularly hard for you to escape, avoid them.
posted by mskyle at 4:05 AM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: These answers are fantastic, and so perceptive, for so many reasons. Thank you. I will resist more back-and-forth but I wanted to bring up one additional question:
Given a goal of pulling back a bit and avoiding big therapized friend breakup… how would you recommend pulling back from upcoming plans in the breeziest way possible? K really wanted to make plans around a special day for me, and rather than recognize my inner resistance, I said yes. I don’t have an obvious reason to cancel, and the pushback will probably feel pretty overt.
In other words, how do I practice putting my “no, I don’t really want to” feelings into practice without feeling like an asshole? Thank you!
posted by Sock Meets Body at 5:32 AM on June 28, 2023
Given a goal of pulling back a bit and avoiding big therapized friend breakup… how would you recommend pulling back from upcoming plans in the breeziest way possible? K really wanted to make plans around a special day for me, and rather than recognize my inner resistance, I said yes. I don’t have an obvious reason to cancel, and the pushback will probably feel pretty overt.
In other words, how do I practice putting my “no, I don’t really want to” feelings into practice without feeling like an asshole? Thank you!
posted by Sock Meets Body at 5:32 AM on June 28, 2023
“Hey, I thought about it and I actually want to celebrate that day on my own! Thank you for thinking of me and being cool with me wanting to do something different for myself.”
posted by Bottlecap at 5:52 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 5:52 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
In other words, you can just say you have reconsidered what you want. No need to deep dive, especially if it’s a special day for you. And in terms of backing off a friendship, a valid strategy is to let existing plans play out but not make any more. Or keep those plans and have a script ready for leaving if you aren’t vibing. “It turns out I am more worn down than I thought and I am ready to just go spend some alone time in the bath/shower/napping.”
posted by Bottlecap at 5:56 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Bottlecap at 5:56 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
You may have to practice being more comfortable feeling like an asshole. You won't die from being more protective of your boundaries - and neither will K.
It sounds like you do value K as a long throughline in your life, and without all the therapy words it sounds like y'all are what most people would call "close", and you might be slacking in your friend responsibilities to bust a friend on their shit sometimes? Like IN the moment instead of analyzing for months and years: "Babe, you know I love you and think you're a star, but I'm not a vending machine. I'm here to encourage YOU to affirm yourself instead of having to outsource it so much." What are friends for if not the knowing look of "I love you but you are back on your bullshit again", as well as "hey now, don't be mean to my friend" and "are you kidding me, of course you should apply for your dream job"? If you two can do all this really earnest therapy talk, surely there is room for you to go, "I mean, you're cool enough for me, I don't know what the actual Cool Kids think." With long-long time friends, sometimes you gotta be more like siblings.
One thing you mentioned is that when the two of you get together it's for A WHOLE WEEKEND??? This is too much togetherness for most adults, especially with someone whose personality is better off sipped than chugged. But like, seriously, most of the time my own spouse and I do not interact a ton during "work" hours most weekends because we can only sustain so much togetherness (while recovering from work weeks, especially) before someone has an introvert flameout.
I think you should find ways to spend shorter bursts of time with K - even if it's a little inconvenient. And you absolutely get to draw a hard line about his intoxication levels when you're together - stoners seem to be the worst about thinking everyone else enjoys them being stoned as much as they do, but it is actually insulting and you can say so. And maybe that's your opening for these upcoming plans, just ask if he plans to be fried the whole time, explain that's just not a comfortable experience for you, and maybe renegotiate down to just meeting up for a meal or an event, or move it to another time when a shorter interaction makes more sense.
After that, initiate less or initiate/negotiate very strategic time together where you know it's not going to cross over into entirely exhausting.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:57 AM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
It sounds like you do value K as a long throughline in your life, and without all the therapy words it sounds like y'all are what most people would call "close", and you might be slacking in your friend responsibilities to bust a friend on their shit sometimes? Like IN the moment instead of analyzing for months and years: "Babe, you know I love you and think you're a star, but I'm not a vending machine. I'm here to encourage YOU to affirm yourself instead of having to outsource it so much." What are friends for if not the knowing look of "I love you but you are back on your bullshit again", as well as "hey now, don't be mean to my friend" and "are you kidding me, of course you should apply for your dream job"? If you two can do all this really earnest therapy talk, surely there is room for you to go, "I mean, you're cool enough for me, I don't know what the actual Cool Kids think." With long-long time friends, sometimes you gotta be more like siblings.
One thing you mentioned is that when the two of you get together it's for A WHOLE WEEKEND??? This is too much togetherness for most adults, especially with someone whose personality is better off sipped than chugged. But like, seriously, most of the time my own spouse and I do not interact a ton during "work" hours most weekends because we can only sustain so much togetherness (while recovering from work weeks, especially) before someone has an introvert flameout.
I think you should find ways to spend shorter bursts of time with K - even if it's a little inconvenient. And you absolutely get to draw a hard line about his intoxication levels when you're together - stoners seem to be the worst about thinking everyone else enjoys them being stoned as much as they do, but it is actually insulting and you can say so. And maybe that's your opening for these upcoming plans, just ask if he plans to be fried the whole time, explain that's just not a comfortable experience for you, and maybe renegotiate down to just meeting up for a meal or an event, or move it to another time when a shorter interaction makes more sense.
After that, initiate less or initiate/negotiate very strategic time together where you know it's not going to cross over into entirely exhausting.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:57 AM on June 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
the pushback will probably feel pretty overt…without feeling like an asshole
Your friend may not like you changing your mind but their reaction is on them, not you.
You’re allowed to change your mind, have different priorities etc. None of that makes you an asshole. If they claim it does, that would be another reason to cool the friendship.
posted by koahiatamadl at 5:59 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Your friend may not like you changing your mind but their reaction is on them, not you.
You’re allowed to change your mind, have different priorities etc. None of that makes you an asshole. If they claim it does, that would be another reason to cool the friendship.
posted by koahiatamadl at 5:59 AM on June 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It's clear what K is getting out of your friendship, but it's not clear what you're getting. If the goal is to avoid people-pleasing behavior at your own expense, I feel like that's a good place to start. Are you getting anything from this? Does what you're getting feel like it's, sorry to use an unavoidably capitalist metaphor, worth as much as what you're giving them?
I'd also add that K themself might benefit from some distance. In addition to the "whole weekend" thing, it jumped out at me that you had to ask for a break for a week. I'm not especially isolated and I can't think of a single friend who would notice if we didn't hang out for a week! That's partner stuff. So between your past dating, their constant requests for affirmation specifically on their physical desirability, and that intense level of closeness... I dunno, I'm getting the "using you as a substitute partner" vibe and I don't love it. You mentioned a core of care and past connection as the thing worth preserving about this friendship, but I wonder if you see that care through the same lens that they do.
posted by babelfish at 6:19 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd also add that K themself might benefit from some distance. In addition to the "whole weekend" thing, it jumped out at me that you had to ask for a break for a week. I'm not especially isolated and I can't think of a single friend who would notice if we didn't hang out for a week! That's partner stuff. So between your past dating, their constant requests for affirmation specifically on their physical desirability, and that intense level of closeness... I dunno, I'm getting the "using you as a substitute partner" vibe and I don't love it. You mentioned a core of care and past connection as the thing worth preserving about this friendship, but I wonder if you see that care through the same lens that they do.
posted by babelfish at 6:19 AM on June 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
“I have gotten into reading the entirety of Elena Ferrante’s Neapolitan quartet [or entire set of Breaking Bad or rewatch of Game of Thrones etc] so I am going to be a really flakey friend for a while and having some quality me time! Catch you in a bit. I mean, it’s just so good.”
The mention of you being a ‘flakey friend’ will set her expectations. Alternatively, you could use ‘unreliable’ or ‘absent’.
posted by moiraine at 6:24 AM on June 28, 2023
The mention of you being a ‘flakey friend’ will set her expectations. Alternatively, you could use ‘unreliable’ or ‘absent’.
posted by moiraine at 6:24 AM on June 28, 2023
Best answer: how do I practice putting my “no, I don’t really want to” feelings into practice without feeling like an asshole?
It may be helpful to ignore the forest and pick one tree, for practical purposes. A straightforward detail that might fit here is how you describe your feelings about him being stoned. A lot of us deal with personal change in a similar way, so there's a lot of writing out there (including but not exclusively from 12 step circles) about how to acknowledge how you're deviating, why you're deviating, and why it matters for you both. Maybe that's something like this:
Geez, I just have such a difficult time with being around weed/pills/whatever these days. I make myself so uncomfortable trying to keep it from being an issue between us, but I can't avoid how anxious that's left me feeling. I just need a clean and clear distance between me and that stuff. I'm so sorry that means I need to back out of these plans I've made with you. It's just how I have to be right now. I hope you understand, because it's very difficult to say this to you without feeling like I'm not acknowledging how important you've been to me.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 6:29 AM on June 28, 2023
It may be helpful to ignore the forest and pick one tree, for practical purposes. A straightforward detail that might fit here is how you describe your feelings about him being stoned. A lot of us deal with personal change in a similar way, so there's a lot of writing out there (including but not exclusively from 12 step circles) about how to acknowledge how you're deviating, why you're deviating, and why it matters for you both. Maybe that's something like this:
Geez, I just have such a difficult time with being around weed/pills/whatever these days. I make myself so uncomfortable trying to keep it from being an issue between us, but I can't avoid how anxious that's left me feeling. I just need a clean and clear distance between me and that stuff. I'm so sorry that means I need to back out of these plans I've made with you. It's just how I have to be right now. I hope you understand, because it's very difficult to say this to you without feeling like I'm not acknowledging how important you've been to me.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 6:29 AM on June 28, 2023
"hey sorry to bail on you but I need to cancel plans for my birthday, I've got a lot on my plate and just not feeling up to it. We can catch up later in the month/next month instead. Thanks for understanding!" Then say no to any followup or alternative plans your friend suggests.
Saying no to things is a good life skill to practice. I have a coupe of friends who just flat out say "no thanks" without giving any reason when they don't feel like doing something, and they feel zero guilt about it. It's like a superpower and I am envious. I have gotten better about not doing things only because I'd feel guilty saying no.
posted by emd3737 at 6:40 AM on June 28, 2023
Saying no to things is a good life skill to practice. I have a coupe of friends who just flat out say "no thanks" without giving any reason when they don't feel like doing something, and they feel zero guilt about it. It's like a superpower and I am envious. I have gotten better about not doing things only because I'd feel guilty saying no.
posted by emd3737 at 6:40 AM on June 28, 2023
Best answer: I'm a big fan of just saying no, and I've set that expectation with my friends through repeated action and transparency in my excuses, and for the most part they get it.
"Bleh I'm honestly just not really feeling it, can we reschedule"
"I need a night to myself, let's check in again at a later date"
"I'm tired so gonna stay in tonight, I'll hit you up another time"
"I don't think I'm going to enjoy that, so gonna skip out this time, you go have fun"
"I don't have the energy for a full weekend, let's just get dinner or catch up over a phone call"
And if you want to do the full slow fade, just do these repeatedly with less suggestion of rescheduling.
posted by greta simone at 7:11 AM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Bleh I'm honestly just not really feeling it, can we reschedule"
"I need a night to myself, let's check in again at a later date"
"I'm tired so gonna stay in tonight, I'll hit you up another time"
"I don't think I'm going to enjoy that, so gonna skip out this time, you go have fun"
"I don't have the energy for a full weekend, let's just get dinner or catch up over a phone call"
And if you want to do the full slow fade, just do these repeatedly with less suggestion of rescheduling.
posted by greta simone at 7:11 AM on June 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
This sounds a lot like friends I've had in the past who weren't really in the place to take responsibility for their own feelings and paths towards life, and might be trending towards a level of substance use that isn't necessarily great to be around. It's not inherently queer culture to have toxic codependency, but there are so many societal and individual factors that encourage it, that it is a facet that sometimes requires navigation.
1) You don't need permission to not hang out with people.
2) Have you talked with them and asked them to explicitly consider some options, and stating your own needs?
3) They aren't practicing mindfulness or checking in or consent with you, but are you making sure to rebuff and support those boundaries too whenever they cross them? Are you also checking in consent with those convos with your perspective? How do you feel whenever you do that? Is it exhausting? It's okay to prioritize yourself first.
4) I think it's okay to distance yourself if you aren't feeling it, and to spend more time with other friends. You can also have an explicit conversation about it, but my main question for you is, do you have support? Do you have a therapist or other community members with healthier habits to lean on?
posted by yueliang at 9:04 PM on June 27, 2023 [2 favorites]