Was this child abuse or not?
June 10, 2023 2:10 PM Subscribe
Last night I attended my step nephew’s 8th birthday party at my dad and stepmom’s. During the party, his cousin, my other 10yo step nephew was being berated by my stepmom in the room over from everyone and I felt sick. Part of me wanted to go and confront her to stop verbally and emotionally abusing her grandson but everyone acted like it was okay and normal disciplining. Was it?
While we were all in one room playing with presents, my stepmom (who I believe is abusive and was abusive and neglectful emotionally to me all the time as a kid, though she can act likable around others) began disciplining my 10yo (step)nephew in the other room.
All other family members tout how great my stepmom is and say I’m too sensitive.
She was screaming at him about how he better stop, he’s too old to act like that, and yelling threatening to beat him over and over. I can’t emphasize enough how loud and out of control the screaming was. He was sobbing loudly and crying that he wasn’t doing anything and that she was mean and she was screaming she’d show him mean. Apparently it was because he “had an attitude” but really I think she enjoys and looks for reason to yell and threaten to beat people. She kept screaming he better stop growling at her, which I didn’t hear any growling. An hour prior we were out at the pool and he was playing with a water gun and was squirting people with it and my stepmom and stepsister kept yelling at him about how he better stop. He got mad after a while and said since he isn’t allowed to do anything he’s just going to get out of the pool.
Just listening to the absolute screaming and sobbing in the other room over made my stomach tight, I couldn’t focus on talking with my dad, while her kids (my two stepsisters) and dad just acted like nothing was happening and it was all cool. She wouldn’t and doesn’t ever act like that in front of my older sister, which my older sister wasn’t there.
Idk. It felt wrong and reminded me how she used to talk to us all the time as kids and how helpless and abused I felt, like she was cruel and mean for no actual good reason and loves to intimidate and overpower children and others and how as a kid you can’t do anything about it. She was always yelling and threatening to beat our behinds. I dealt with it as a kid by withdrawing and keeping quiet and to myself eventually, I did talk back a couple times but my dad would hit me, so I stopped. Now I’m accused of being withdrawn and not involved especially with my nieces and nephews but all my parents and my sister I believe are abusive (my sister is really narcissistic and kinda wacko) and my stepsisters are extremely loyal to their mom. And it feels like my dads loyalty lies with my stepmom.
Her kids, my two stepsisters have had a rough go at life, both of them have two kids each, one with two different men, and neither of them are still with the fathers, and they are constantly struggling financially, and making poor decisions, getting CPS called on them, their exes threatening to call the cops, kids have oppositional defiant disorders, my one stepsister is always high on weed and inattentive to the kids, she only gets to see them for 3 days this summer, constant custody issues, baby daddy issues, etc.
I know disciplining kids is normal but how she acts is just over the top and overly cruel with no respect, only this weird feeling of her nasty desire to crush people into submission around her.
She tried saying she loved him when he was leaving but he wouldn’t say anything back to her. She tried acting like everything was normal and alright and so did her kids and my dad.
It just felt abusive and dysfunctional. This nephew has oppositional defiant disorder and her mom is single and has another son with a different father. But I’m not sure how to act in my position. I just try to be a supportive presence but it kinda reminded me how alone I felt as a child dealing with abuse from all angles and no one helping me and everyone siding with the abuser and ignoring it because what do you do when there is abuse going on. Adults just mostly ignore it. Idk. It’s infuriating to have to deal with abuse from caregivers and then treated lowly because you’re a child and cannot provide for yourself and are dependent on them. She would try and make us feel bad for “not making that money.”
My other stepsister and I were the ones really abused and my stepsister who is the mother of the 10yo was the golden child and extremely loyal to her mom, so that’s what she was last night, saying he deserved it because he had an attitude
I still question whether I’m too sensitive and what happened was normal discipline or whether it was abusive. It made me feel really comfortable and I’m almost at a point where I want to go NC, change my phone number, delete them on socials, and move away. It feels like the twilight zone though because everyone acted like it wasn’t a big deal.
While we were all in one room playing with presents, my stepmom (who I believe is abusive and was abusive and neglectful emotionally to me all the time as a kid, though she can act likable around others) began disciplining my 10yo (step)nephew in the other room.
All other family members tout how great my stepmom is and say I’m too sensitive.
She was screaming at him about how he better stop, he’s too old to act like that, and yelling threatening to beat him over and over. I can’t emphasize enough how loud and out of control the screaming was. He was sobbing loudly and crying that he wasn’t doing anything and that she was mean and she was screaming she’d show him mean. Apparently it was because he “had an attitude” but really I think she enjoys and looks for reason to yell and threaten to beat people. She kept screaming he better stop growling at her, which I didn’t hear any growling. An hour prior we were out at the pool and he was playing with a water gun and was squirting people with it and my stepmom and stepsister kept yelling at him about how he better stop. He got mad after a while and said since he isn’t allowed to do anything he’s just going to get out of the pool.
Just listening to the absolute screaming and sobbing in the other room over made my stomach tight, I couldn’t focus on talking with my dad, while her kids (my two stepsisters) and dad just acted like nothing was happening and it was all cool. She wouldn’t and doesn’t ever act like that in front of my older sister, which my older sister wasn’t there.
Idk. It felt wrong and reminded me how she used to talk to us all the time as kids and how helpless and abused I felt, like she was cruel and mean for no actual good reason and loves to intimidate and overpower children and others and how as a kid you can’t do anything about it. She was always yelling and threatening to beat our behinds. I dealt with it as a kid by withdrawing and keeping quiet and to myself eventually, I did talk back a couple times but my dad would hit me, so I stopped. Now I’m accused of being withdrawn and not involved especially with my nieces and nephews but all my parents and my sister I believe are abusive (my sister is really narcissistic and kinda wacko) and my stepsisters are extremely loyal to their mom. And it feels like my dads loyalty lies with my stepmom.
Her kids, my two stepsisters have had a rough go at life, both of them have two kids each, one with two different men, and neither of them are still with the fathers, and they are constantly struggling financially, and making poor decisions, getting CPS called on them, their exes threatening to call the cops, kids have oppositional defiant disorders, my one stepsister is always high on weed and inattentive to the kids, she only gets to see them for 3 days this summer, constant custody issues, baby daddy issues, etc.
I know disciplining kids is normal but how she acts is just over the top and overly cruel with no respect, only this weird feeling of her nasty desire to crush people into submission around her.
She tried saying she loved him when he was leaving but he wouldn’t say anything back to her. She tried acting like everything was normal and alright and so did her kids and my dad.
It just felt abusive and dysfunctional. This nephew has oppositional defiant disorder and her mom is single and has another son with a different father. But I’m not sure how to act in my position. I just try to be a supportive presence but it kinda reminded me how alone I felt as a child dealing with abuse from all angles and no one helping me and everyone siding with the abuser and ignoring it because what do you do when there is abuse going on. Adults just mostly ignore it. Idk. It’s infuriating to have to deal with abuse from caregivers and then treated lowly because you’re a child and cannot provide for yourself and are dependent on them. She would try and make us feel bad for “not making that money.”
My other stepsister and I were the ones really abused and my stepsister who is the mother of the 10yo was the golden child and extremely loyal to her mom, so that’s what she was last night, saying he deserved it because he had an attitude
I still question whether I’m too sensitive and what happened was normal discipline or whether it was abusive. It made me feel really comfortable and I’m almost at a point where I want to go NC, change my phone number, delete them on socials, and move away. It feels like the twilight zone though because everyone acted like it wasn’t a big deal.
Concur
posted by kensington314 at 2:36 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 2:36 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
FWIW, I overheard something similar from my neighbours once (out of control abusive shouting from parent to child, ending with a 10 year old being told to just fuck off, and then the sound of someone leaving, which I assumed was the kid doing as he was told and fucking off). After deliberation and discussion with a friend, I tried calling social services, who told me to call the non-emergency police number.
I did that, spoke to an operator who just noted down what I said had happened and said she’d pass it on (ie. I didn’t beg them to come out; I told them I hadn’t heard any physical violence) I got a call later that day from a cop saying he’d been round to see them and everyone was safe and that I’d done absolutely the right thing by calling it in, and they wished more people would report that kind of thing.
I’m not saying that you should call the police (I happen to live somewhere that the police are generally trusted, for starters). But just to affirm that your instinct is right and that the police where I live would consider that kind of behaviour abusive and worth reporting. They came out for an in-person visit just based on my account of what I’d heard said.
posted by penguin pie at 2:51 PM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
I did that, spoke to an operator who just noted down what I said had happened and said she’d pass it on (ie. I didn’t beg them to come out; I told them I hadn’t heard any physical violence) I got a call later that day from a cop saying he’d been round to see them and everyone was safe and that I’d done absolutely the right thing by calling it in, and they wished more people would report that kind of thing.
I’m not saying that you should call the police (I happen to live somewhere that the police are generally trusted, for starters). But just to affirm that your instinct is right and that the police where I live would consider that kind of behaviour abusive and worth reporting. They came out for an in-person visit just based on my account of what I’d heard said.
posted by penguin pie at 2:51 PM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, this is absolutely abuse.
For context, I work in social services looking after vulnerable children and young people in foster care and we would classify that (yelling, swearing at the child, threatening to beat the child) as a serious incident that would potentially have the child removed from that person's care for their safety. What you experienced as a child was emotional and physical abuse, and I'm so sorry you were put through that. Please protect yourself if you feel you can.
posted by fight or flight at 3:00 PM on June 10, 2023 [29 favorites]
For context, I work in social services looking after vulnerable children and young people in foster care and we would classify that (yelling, swearing at the child, threatening to beat the child) as a serious incident that would potentially have the child removed from that person's care for their safety. What you experienced as a child was emotional and physical abuse, and I'm so sorry you were put through that. Please protect yourself if you feel you can.
posted by fight or flight at 3:00 PM on June 10, 2023 [29 favorites]
If you can, take the kid aside privately and let him know that what he experienced wasn't ok. Even if you don't share anything at all about your own experiences, you may be the only adult to acknowledge that his feelings are valid (and if you feel comfortable saying it, that he can come to you for help -- but only if you 100% mean it). It sounds like you didn't have anyone like that in your own childhood, for which I am truly sorry.
posted by basalganglia at 3:12 PM on June 10, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by basalganglia at 3:12 PM on June 10, 2023 [26 favorites]
Bullies feel powerful by making others feel weak. She sounds like a bully. It sounds like this is a pattern of behavior so common she felt free to behave this way in front of a group of others. You've been conditioned to accept her behavior and it takes time and effort to overcome that.
Write it all down. Talk to others about it to verify facts and make notes. In my state, they'd likely record this event, possibly have a CPS caseworker visit. But repeated events get more attention. If you report it, use your notes, be clear and factual and honest.
Decide how much actual energy you have to help the child, because it's better to know your actual boundaries. Talk to the child about the event, how they feel. Offer as much help as you are able, but don't over-promise. It makes an enormous difference to kids if they are seen and believed and have any allies. And, for you, therapy. It's hard to overcome this stuff.
posted by theora55 at 3:16 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Write it all down. Talk to others about it to verify facts and make notes. In my state, they'd likely record this event, possibly have a CPS caseworker visit. But repeated events get more attention. If you report it, use your notes, be clear and factual and honest.
Decide how much actual energy you have to help the child, because it's better to know your actual boundaries. Talk to the child about the event, how they feel. Offer as much help as you are able, but don't over-promise. It makes an enormous difference to kids if they are seen and believed and have any allies. And, for you, therapy. It's hard to overcome this stuff.
posted by theora55 at 3:16 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, this was abusive. The harder question is what you can do about it, since the poor kid wasn't in immediate physical danger and it sounds like you don't see that part of the family all the time. Only you can know whether the kid's life would be improved by getting ACS involved, and that becomes an even more challenging call if the family is of color. If this happens again, and only if you feel you can do this calmly, I would suggest going into the room and speaking to your stepmom as if she was behaving as though she were unusually upset or tired. "Hey, Alice, are you okay? C'mon, it's little Bob's birthday and you're missing all the fun. Come on back in here with the rest of us." If she goes and leaves you a minute with the kid, see if you can do a little in-the-moment soothing, if not, maybe suggest that he should go wash his face and get a drink of water to give him a chance to reset.
Note: this is far from an ideal solution. Anyone who tells you there is an ideal solution for this kind of situation is unfortunately living in a much simpler imaginary world than this kid is actually in. The point is to try to break it up in a way that diverts stepmom's attention without totally normalizing that behavior. It may or may not work. But you want to try to stop it in the moment and signal to the kid that this isn't totally normal. Only do this if you feel physically safe and as if you can handle the emotional aftershocks.
posted by praemunire at 3:18 PM on June 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
Note: this is far from an ideal solution. Anyone who tells you there is an ideal solution for this kind of situation is unfortunately living in a much simpler imaginary world than this kid is actually in. The point is to try to break it up in a way that diverts stepmom's attention without totally normalizing that behavior. It may or may not work. But you want to try to stop it in the moment and signal to the kid that this isn't totally normal. Only do this if you feel physically safe and as if you can handle the emotional aftershocks.
posted by praemunire at 3:18 PM on June 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
You should talk to the child's parents. Before you talk to the child, talk to the parent. You are not their parent. Their parent is the person who must take the lead here.
You should absolutely talk to the child and make it clear you are a supportive person for them. I would not talk directly about the grandma, but focus on building the child's self esteem and building trust. This is a sensitive situation, and maybe there are plans in motion to protect the children that are not yet fully fleshed. Talk to the parents.
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 3:19 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
You should absolutely talk to the child and make it clear you are a supportive person for them. I would not talk directly about the grandma, but focus on building the child's self esteem and building trust. This is a sensitive situation, and maybe there are plans in motion to protect the children that are not yet fully fleshed. Talk to the parents.
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 3:19 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Threatening to beat the child? Openly? Screaming this where everyone can hear it? OH GOOD LORD. It shows how "safe" this woman feels that she can literally scream threats of physical abuse in the wide open without fear of reprisal. I'm guessing the entire family is conditioned to think this is as normal as breathing, apparently. I'd personally be about ready to shit myself with fear in this environment and then think, "Shit, I'm a mandated reporter due to my job, I'm going to have to deal with this lady's reprisal if/when I report it to authorities."
This may be normal in your family. It isn't everywhere. Like you could probably at least get tokenly listened to by police or child services or a school or somebody if you called it in, even if I have no idea if authorities would actually do something these days. I truly have no idea if anyone would actually intervene if you said something and/or if that might make it worse if the authorities make a token attempt and then leave her be.
I’m almost at a point where I want to go NC, change my phone number, delete them on socials, and move away. It feels like the twilight zone though because everyone acted like it wasn’t a big deal.
Do it. Seriously, go NC with these people. I don't know if you feel up to openly fighting with stepmom or not or if it would do any good/traumatize you more (I suspect definitely the latter and I'm not sure you could stop her) to try, but at the very least, as an adult, you hopefully aren't forced to be in these environments any more.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:25 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
This may be normal in your family. It isn't everywhere. Like you could probably at least get tokenly listened to by police or child services or a school or somebody if you called it in, even if I have no idea if authorities would actually do something these days. I truly have no idea if anyone would actually intervene if you said something and/or if that might make it worse if the authorities make a token attempt and then leave her be.
I’m almost at a point where I want to go NC, change my phone number, delete them on socials, and move away. It feels like the twilight zone though because everyone acted like it wasn’t a big deal.
Do it. Seriously, go NC with these people. I don't know if you feel up to openly fighting with stepmom or not or if it would do any good/traumatize you more (I suspect definitely the latter and I'm not sure you could stop her) to try, but at the very least, as an adult, you hopefully aren't forced to be in these environments any more.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:25 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
It made me feel a bit sick imagining that kid getting threatened like that. I've never witnessed discipline like that. My kid will never be disciplined like that. It's not okay and I'm so sorry for what happened to you and what's happening to him.
posted by stray at 3:33 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by stray at 3:33 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Your idea of going no contact is a splendid idea! What that lady was doing is absolutely abuse, and I do not wish her anything good whatsoever.
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 3:43 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 3:43 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
sounds like a horrible situation and a horrible person. The kid sounds hard to deal with, but that doesn't make your stepmother's behavior ok.
If you care about the kid, you could try taking him aside, quietly, to tell him that you see what's going on there, and that grownups aren't supposed to act like screaming brats, and he doesn't deserve to be treated that way, and your stepmom is in fact a piece of work and he shouldn't believe what she says.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:49 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you care about the kid, you could try taking him aside, quietly, to tell him that you see what's going on there, and that grownups aren't supposed to act like screaming brats, and he doesn't deserve to be treated that way, and your stepmom is in fact a piece of work and he shouldn't believe what she says.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:49 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Your instincts are correct, as everyone says. As a mother of two and grandmother of two more I have only once been in a loud fight with a child, and it happened privately, and I immediately sought help for both of us (and it was resolved to the degree my daughter doesn't even remember the incident).
The bigger challenge is what you should do. When I was a child with an abusive mother, both my grans and my aunt took on a lot of responsibility. Are you up for that? I went to one grandmother on every Monday after school and the other every Thursday. Thursday gran gradually took on more days. I could always go over to my aunt's house, even late at night, though we never had a fixed agreement, at one point, I even had my own room there, which I didn't even have at my dad's house. That way, I had a sense of normality and could handle the absurdity and abuse I experienced at "home". I did chores at those other homes, which was not a bad thing.
All of my relatives denied knowing about the abuse I experienced. On hindsight, I think they were scared that the authorities would take me away even from them, and I can understand that. But it was confusing for me. I don't think it would be exactly the same today, but it is something you need to think about. My aunt is still today more like the grandmother for my kids than my mother.
posted by mumimor at 3:49 PM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
The bigger challenge is what you should do. When I was a child with an abusive mother, both my grans and my aunt took on a lot of responsibility. Are you up for that? I went to one grandmother on every Monday after school and the other every Thursday. Thursday gran gradually took on more days. I could always go over to my aunt's house, even late at night, though we never had a fixed agreement, at one point, I even had my own room there, which I didn't even have at my dad's house. That way, I had a sense of normality and could handle the absurdity and abuse I experienced at "home". I did chores at those other homes, which was not a bad thing.
All of my relatives denied knowing about the abuse I experienced. On hindsight, I think they were scared that the authorities would take me away even from them, and I can understand that. But it was confusing for me. I don't think it would be exactly the same today, but it is something you need to think about. My aunt is still today more like the grandmother for my kids than my mother.
posted by mumimor at 3:49 PM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: screaming at him about how he better stop, he’s too old to act like that
Unfortunately, some people never bother examining their own behaviour closely enough to understand that they're too old act like that.
100% abuse.
This nephew has oppositional defiant disorder
If I were ten years old and that's how I were routinely treated by the adults in my life, bet your arse I'd be oppositional and defiant to the point of getting disordered about it as well.
posted by flabdablet at 4:02 PM on June 10, 2023 [25 favorites]
Unfortunately, some people never bother examining their own behaviour closely enough to understand that they're too old act like that.
100% abuse.
This nephew has oppositional defiant disorder
If I were ten years old and that's how I were routinely treated by the adults in my life, bet your arse I'd be oppositional and defiant to the point of getting disordered about it as well.
posted by flabdablet at 4:02 PM on June 10, 2023 [25 favorites]
Yeah your stepmom sounds awful and yeah probably abusing her grandson.
It sounds like you felt pretty triggered by this and if you have someone you can talk to about this, I think that might allow you to get some clarity about how you want to respond. Could be a therapist, partner, friend, crisis line, whoever. I think when you can relax a bit from the episode you witnessed you might be able to think about if you want to intervene, with whom, how you want to approach that, how deep do you want your involvement to be, etc.
You have a lot of options here. You could go no contact. You could speak directly with other adults involved. You could foster a supportive relationship with the kids. You could even consider, if there were custody issues with CPS/the kid would you want to care for them yourself? I'm not saying you should do any of these specifically, only you can decide those things. Seems like you need some space to explore the feelings this brought up before you can make decisions about what to do.
posted by Summers at 4:14 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
It sounds like you felt pretty triggered by this and if you have someone you can talk to about this, I think that might allow you to get some clarity about how you want to respond. Could be a therapist, partner, friend, crisis line, whoever. I think when you can relax a bit from the episode you witnessed you might be able to think about if you want to intervene, with whom, how you want to approach that, how deep do you want your involvement to be, etc.
You have a lot of options here. You could go no contact. You could speak directly with other adults involved. You could foster a supportive relationship with the kids. You could even consider, if there were custody issues with CPS/the kid would you want to care for them yourself? I'm not saying you should do any of these specifically, only you can decide those things. Seems like you need some space to explore the feelings this brought up before you can make decisions about what to do.
posted by Summers at 4:14 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
but really I think she enjoys and looks for reason to yell and threaten to beat people
I just want to validate this experience specifically. This is absolutely a thing some people have. I don’t know if it’s common; I’ve only met a few people who give me that impression (although two of them have ended up becoming physically violent toward me), but the vast majority of people I meet don’t give that impression. Just think: that’s the kind of thing that most people would try to cover up in public. They’d dial it back a few notches. So if you’re feeling this strongly, that means that either she *is* dialing it back and she can be even worse, or that she doesn’t care that other people get child abuser vibes from her, which is also not great. I don’t have a solution to offer. Even having been in your nephew’s situation before, I still don’t really have an idea what would’ve made things better for me. But I just want to validate your feelings and tell you to trust your gut on this.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:15 PM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
I just want to validate this experience specifically. This is absolutely a thing some people have. I don’t know if it’s common; I’ve only met a few people who give me that impression (although two of them have ended up becoming physically violent toward me), but the vast majority of people I meet don’t give that impression. Just think: that’s the kind of thing that most people would try to cover up in public. They’d dial it back a few notches. So if you’re feeling this strongly, that means that either she *is* dialing it back and she can be even worse, or that she doesn’t care that other people get child abuser vibes from her, which is also not great. I don’t have a solution to offer. Even having been in your nephew’s situation before, I still don’t really have an idea what would’ve made things better for me. But I just want to validate your feelings and tell you to trust your gut on this.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:15 PM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't know what your relationship with your step-nephews is like and whether is makes sense in terms of your family dynamics and your mental health to get involved in their lives.
If you need to go no contact with your step-sister and her family then your mental health is the first priority. If you do have contact with them, then you can make a difference just by being someone who accepts your nephews just as they are and finds them be wonderful just by being themself. (I'm using plural because I'm sure both boys could benefit from a dose of unconditional acceptance) Be happy to see them, be willing to spend time with them, be interested in things that interest them. If it is just at holidays, it will still be good for them. If you can stay in touch more often, all the better.
Bonus level: let them know that even if they mess up, you still really like them - everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes and you know that so you expect sometimes they will make mistakes and you still love them all the time. Option 1: if it feels right you add something like "I didn't see you give Grandma any attitude but even if you did, it wasn't right for her to yell like that and say those things, we all mess up sometimes" Option 2: "Grandma used to yell at me like that and it was awful but you know what, eventually I grew up and moved out and now I get to be in charge of my own life and I don't have to put up with it any more. It's hard now but I promise someday it will get better"
Lots of other people commented on the pros and cons of confronting your family and/or calling Child Protective Services or the police. I just want to affirm for you that you only need to do what feels right and safe for you. Also that whether or not you directly confront the abusive behavior, there are these other things you can do that will still be value to your nephews. But again, I don't want you feel like you are a bad guy if you can't do even that. As I said above, you need to use your judgement, weighing both the family dynamics and your own mental health to decide what feels like the right response.
posted by metahawk at 4:18 PM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you need to go no contact with your step-sister and her family then your mental health is the first priority. If you do have contact with them, then you can make a difference just by being someone who accepts your nephews just as they are and finds them be wonderful just by being themself. (I'm using plural because I'm sure both boys could benefit from a dose of unconditional acceptance) Be happy to see them, be willing to spend time with them, be interested in things that interest them. If it is just at holidays, it will still be good for them. If you can stay in touch more often, all the better.
Bonus level: let them know that even if they mess up, you still really like them - everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes and you know that so you expect sometimes they will make mistakes and you still love them all the time. Option 1: if it feels right you add something like "I didn't see you give Grandma any attitude but even if you did, it wasn't right for her to yell like that and say those things, we all mess up sometimes" Option 2: "Grandma used to yell at me like that and it was awful but you know what, eventually I grew up and moved out and now I get to be in charge of my own life and I don't have to put up with it any more. It's hard now but I promise someday it will get better"
Lots of other people commented on the pros and cons of confronting your family and/or calling Child Protective Services or the police. I just want to affirm for you that you only need to do what feels right and safe for you. Also that whether or not you directly confront the abusive behavior, there are these other things you can do that will still be value to your nephews. But again, I don't want you feel like you are a bad guy if you can't do even that. As I said above, you need to use your judgement, weighing both the family dynamics and your own mental health to decide what feels like the right response.
posted by metahawk at 4:18 PM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Threatening to beat a kid isn’t discipline. It’s abuse. I don’t know anything about these people but I feel like that’s pretty black and white.
Family dynamics like this are not my area of expertise but if you were going to go no contact - a totally reasonable thing to do - I’d consider sending a letter or email saying that you thought her treatment of nephew was abuse by any definition, nephew is a child, nobody deserves that but children in particular do not deserve that. Good luck.
posted by kat518 at 4:25 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Family dynamics like this are not my area of expertise but if you were going to go no contact - a totally reasonable thing to do - I’d consider sending a letter or email saying that you thought her treatment of nephew was abuse by any definition, nephew is a child, nobody deserves that but children in particular do not deserve that. Good luck.
posted by kat518 at 4:25 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is absolutely not okay. If you want to delete every adult who is okay with that, it completely makes sense. Re: the kid, one thing that has helped me in (a much less bad) situation was that someone later approached me to say "hey, the way they treated you was just totally not okay. I told them that myself." The situation was different because intervening didn't make sense given a lot of contextual factors, but just having someone say "that was totally fucked up" was really valuable in calibrating my own understanding of right/wrong, what I "deserved," and how I wanted to steer in terms of my relationship with that person going forward, etc. I hoped they'd hear that person and modulate their behavior but they didn't in the least; it made no impact. But it made a huge impact on me.
Part of what made it work was a very "I see you and how strong you are" kind of vibe to the whole thing that acknowledged that it was my relationship with that person at stake, and my stamina / approach to psychologically processing the whole thing that was what would get me through. It wasn't "poor you," it was "hey, I know we both know this, but I just want to say, that way they were treating you was totally wrong. I talked to them. Just wanted you to know you had someone on your side." In this case maybe you could pair it with some offer of actual support because being 10 ... that's a lot of years to go and almost no options/power (compared to a kid who is, say, 17, who can drive, get an after-school job, etc).
posted by slidell at 5:27 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Part of what made it work was a very "I see you and how strong you are" kind of vibe to the whole thing that acknowledged that it was my relationship with that person at stake, and my stamina / approach to psychologically processing the whole thing that was what would get me through. It wasn't "poor you," it was "hey, I know we both know this, but I just want to say, that way they were treating you was totally wrong. I talked to them. Just wanted you to know you had someone on your side." In this case maybe you could pair it with some offer of actual support because being 10 ... that's a lot of years to go and almost no options/power (compared to a kid who is, say, 17, who can drive, get an after-school job, etc).
posted by slidell at 5:27 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yes, that was abusive, just as was your stepmother and father's treatment of you as a child (as described in your past posts, which I recalled as soon as I started reading this one).
I don't know if you need to go permanently no-contact with all or part of your family, but I suspect that you are not going to be able to meaningfully work through these issues while your family members still have opportunities to add more to the walls of text you've already shared here about them. I am not sure of your capacity to access therapy right now, but please consider whether professional support is available to you, especially before committing to any intervention on behalf of your step-nephew(s) that will involve further entanglement with the adults in your family or expose you to potential blowback from them. I think your nephews are in a terrible place, but the fact that there are diagnoses circulating and that they are school-age suggests that they may have at least some extrinsic support systems. From what I can tell, you do not, and this is decidedly a "remotely related adult puts their own oxygen mask on first" situation.
posted by LadyInWaiting at 6:42 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know if you need to go permanently no-contact with all or part of your family, but I suspect that you are not going to be able to meaningfully work through these issues while your family members still have opportunities to add more to the walls of text you've already shared here about them. I am not sure of your capacity to access therapy right now, but please consider whether professional support is available to you, especially before committing to any intervention on behalf of your step-nephew(s) that will involve further entanglement with the adults in your family or expose you to potential blowback from them. I think your nephews are in a terrible place, but the fact that there are diagnoses circulating and that they are school-age suggests that they may have at least some extrinsic support systems. From what I can tell, you do not, and this is decidedly a "remotely related adult puts their own oxygen mask on first" situation.
posted by LadyInWaiting at 6:42 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, it's abusive. I wonder if you may have been experiencing a bit of PTSD as a result of hearing her repeat her abuse with your nephew? I'd say it's a good sign that you might benefit from a few sessions with a counselor - especially one with a specialty in PTSD. There are some great therapies out there - EMDR, for example - that are successfully treating others in your situation.
posted by summerstorm at 7:20 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by summerstorm at 7:20 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
You used the word "discipline" several times. I'm sure that's what they'd like to call it, but it's not. Leaving aside the question of whether any punishment was "necessary," the punishment in question was unjust. You know that. But really take a moment to think about that in the context of "discipline," because it sounds like they've left you feeling powerless to judge this kind of thing for yourself. If punishments are going to be part of a system of discipline–and they don't have to be!–then they need to be meaningful so they are something the person can actually understand and learn from. Whereas in this case you as an adult observer can't even make sense of it except by concluding that she's a bully and likes it.
One: it's entirely unclear what his infraction even was. "Getting upset about the pool incident" is not a valid thing to try to punish out of someone. It's an emotional response, and he handled it reasonably: by leaving. I guess he could have skipped the remark about how he's not allowed to do anything, but it sounds like nobody's helped him learn any better way to say things like "I feel frustrated, I feel disrespected, I feel inferior." From my perspective, he's actually trying very hard to communicate, and it's being dismissed as "attitude" because the adults don't actually care about his feelings. Punishing someone into silence about the effects one's words and actions have on them is always abusive.
Two: the punishment couldn't have been predicted by him (so it couldn't have effectively deterred his behavior except via generalized fear), and fundamentally was completely unconnected with whatever it was that he'd allegedly done. What did being yelled at and threatened have to do with... squirting people? leaving angrily? anything??
Also, think of the timing: it sounds like it was significantly later, which disconnects it even more, especially for a kid. Why did it happen during presents? If it's "to deprive him of a nice time," that's already a(n arbitrary) punishment in its own right, and it's at cross-purposes to building up relationships. If it's "to publicly shame him, and help keep others in line," that's a couple extra layers of abusiveness.
Three: it was carried out by someone who was angry and who was allowing the unspecified "crime" to continue to compound itself inside her head based on his reactions to the punishment. Again: people get to have their emotional responses. If (if!) he'd deserved some kind of punishment, he shouldn't also receive additional punishments ad infinitum for not liking it. That's what punishments are: things one dislikes. Moreover, this punishment is one that is worse the longer it goes on, but its duration was never set and she just kept spooling more and more out until she was sated. It was mean and he was correct and brave to call it that.
So then. What is not abusive, and still teaches a child how to behave? Rewinding way back to the pool scene, let's say maybe he was squirting people who weren't actually wanting to play that way. Someone could have actually said those words to him instead of sitting there yelling at him. They could have suggested an acceptable alternative activity: only squirt people who also have water toys; use the squirt gun to propel a ball around in the pool; whatever. They could have just played with him, this ten-year-old child. If he truly wouldn't stop squirting people anyway, that's harder, but still: engagement is what's called for, not screaming at him. If he chooses to leave and go do something else though, that actually conforms to reasonable expectations: he shouldn't have to just hang out at the pool like an adult might, and if he's not allowed to play the way he wants, well, he probably would rather go do something else. It would be nice though if someone would check on him sooner rather than later and make sure he's not lonely and/or regretful about leaving the pool.
Considering what actually happened, honestly, I'm genuinely impressed he chose to just leave. That is discipline. That is a valid example of appropriate behavior in this situation. He did a good job. I don't even care if he sassed someone on the way out: clearly the adults don't provide good examples of any other ways to interact and, like I said, he had a legitimate complaint. And later, if he was "growling"? Well, why not growl at someone who's verbally and emotionally attacking you?? Growling could easily be what he was doing instead of attacking back. I hope those skills mean there's someone else out there providing him coaching on this stuff, and that he's not just desperately clinging to an inmate sense of rightness on his own. I hope he holds on to that "opposition" and "defiance." And I'm glad that you're pushing back in your own mind about the narrative they have taught you, and listening to the parts of you that know it's wrong for someone to treat a person that way.
posted by teremala at 7:23 PM on June 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
One: it's entirely unclear what his infraction even was. "Getting upset about the pool incident" is not a valid thing to try to punish out of someone. It's an emotional response, and he handled it reasonably: by leaving. I guess he could have skipped the remark about how he's not allowed to do anything, but it sounds like nobody's helped him learn any better way to say things like "I feel frustrated, I feel disrespected, I feel inferior." From my perspective, he's actually trying very hard to communicate, and it's being dismissed as "attitude" because the adults don't actually care about his feelings. Punishing someone into silence about the effects one's words and actions have on them is always abusive.
Two: the punishment couldn't have been predicted by him (so it couldn't have effectively deterred his behavior except via generalized fear), and fundamentally was completely unconnected with whatever it was that he'd allegedly done. What did being yelled at and threatened have to do with... squirting people? leaving angrily? anything??
Also, think of the timing: it sounds like it was significantly later, which disconnects it even more, especially for a kid. Why did it happen during presents? If it's "to deprive him of a nice time," that's already a(n arbitrary) punishment in its own right, and it's at cross-purposes to building up relationships. If it's "to publicly shame him, and help keep others in line," that's a couple extra layers of abusiveness.
Three: it was carried out by someone who was angry and who was allowing the unspecified "crime" to continue to compound itself inside her head based on his reactions to the punishment. Again: people get to have their emotional responses. If (if!) he'd deserved some kind of punishment, he shouldn't also receive additional punishments ad infinitum for not liking it. That's what punishments are: things one dislikes. Moreover, this punishment is one that is worse the longer it goes on, but its duration was never set and she just kept spooling more and more out until she was sated. It was mean and he was correct and brave to call it that.
So then. What is not abusive, and still teaches a child how to behave? Rewinding way back to the pool scene, let's say maybe he was squirting people who weren't actually wanting to play that way. Someone could have actually said those words to him instead of sitting there yelling at him. They could have suggested an acceptable alternative activity: only squirt people who also have water toys; use the squirt gun to propel a ball around in the pool; whatever. They could have just played with him, this ten-year-old child. If he truly wouldn't stop squirting people anyway, that's harder, but still: engagement is what's called for, not screaming at him. If he chooses to leave and go do something else though, that actually conforms to reasonable expectations: he shouldn't have to just hang out at the pool like an adult might, and if he's not allowed to play the way he wants, well, he probably would rather go do something else. It would be nice though if someone would check on him sooner rather than later and make sure he's not lonely and/or regretful about leaving the pool.
Considering what actually happened, honestly, I'm genuinely impressed he chose to just leave. That is discipline. That is a valid example of appropriate behavior in this situation. He did a good job. I don't even care if he sassed someone on the way out: clearly the adults don't provide good examples of any other ways to interact and, like I said, he had a legitimate complaint. And later, if he was "growling"? Well, why not growl at someone who's verbally and emotionally attacking you?? Growling could easily be what he was doing instead of attacking back. I hope those skills mean there's someone else out there providing him coaching on this stuff, and that he's not just desperately clinging to an inmate sense of rightness on his own. I hope he holds on to that "opposition" and "defiance." And I'm glad that you're pushing back in your own mind about the narrative they have taught you, and listening to the parts of you that know it's wrong for someone to treat a person that way.
posted by teremala at 7:23 PM on June 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
I have always thought that one of the worst things about being abused as a child must be the fact that as a child you don't know that the situation is abnormal; it's just how things are in your world. If you can't conceive of a different reality, how can you perceive the abuse as "wrong" and speak up about what's going on? How can you do anything about the situation other than to try and make "sense" of it by, for example, blaming yourself? One of my students once told me that they didn't realize they were being abused at home until they spent some time studying abroad in high school and stayed with a host family, who treated them properly and with kindness; it was only after experiencing that that the student realized their own family was abusive (the student is now an adult and doing well).
All this is to say that if you decide it is appropriate and something that you can comfortably do, I think you would be helping the child a great deal if you could be there for him in some way as a kind and supportive presence.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 7:47 PM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
All this is to say that if you decide it is appropriate and something that you can comfortably do, I think you would be helping the child a great deal if you could be there for him in some way as a kind and supportive presence.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 7:47 PM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
It’s a matter for thought whether you back out slowly, quietly avoiding this branch of your family in the future, OR whether you state one time what you are feeling about the family dynamic you witnessed.
Not making a grand exit with oratory has a lot to recommend it in terms of avoiding the tumult of feelings that being sneered at, blamed or hated would result from saying anything. But, let’s say you feel somewhat robust, that you have a mental health support system around you in the form of a therapist, *maybe* you can say a one time statement as you exit.
You could get it absolutely clear in your mind how you see this traumatic event so that any tantrums from others will be viewed with critical distance, not threaten you psychically.
So. What you have witnessed is generational trauma being duplicated on your step-nephew, just as it was in your life. You have witnessed the precise dynamic that has produced the abusive environment: a particular person who entered the family when you were a child and gained license to act out some kind of domination complex over you and others in the home. Her violent approach was licensed by your father, who abrogated his responsibility by not protecting you. He also abrogated his responsibility to her children who absorbed both her mindset from birth, and learned from your father’s behaviour to accept her approach when he came into their lives.
The environment in which her disregulation was normalised still exists. Others mask the dysfunction because they haven’t learned that it was wrong, OR that even if they were uncomfortable they didn’t have the words, or the energy and psychological distance to address her directly to improve the lives of everyone around her.
Because this incident is so recent, I would try to distill my thoughts around these facts in the shortest communication to your father as possible and send it soon. Just saying these sentences could end the relationship, but you’d have said something true about the situation you witnessed, and the experience you had as a child.
Maybe, “X’s very bad treatment of children, and your okayness with it, is unacceptable to me. It never was acceptable to me, a person who also suffered her bullying behaviour as a child. It is certainly unacceptable to me as an adult witnessing it again yesterday. X [child’s name] was abused in our presence. He was screamed at, humiliated, and threatened with physical violence. No child deserves that kind of treatment, and adults witnessing abuse should be stopping it happening.”
You don’t need to threaten not to be in contact or anything more. Just saying the true things about what you saw, and what you experienced is taking a stand for yourself and your nephew.
[Although as others above have suggested, getting child services involved wouldn’t be out of order here.]
posted by honey-barbara at 9:40 PM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Not making a grand exit with oratory has a lot to recommend it in terms of avoiding the tumult of feelings that being sneered at, blamed or hated would result from saying anything. But, let’s say you feel somewhat robust, that you have a mental health support system around you in the form of a therapist, *maybe* you can say a one time statement as you exit.
You could get it absolutely clear in your mind how you see this traumatic event so that any tantrums from others will be viewed with critical distance, not threaten you psychically.
So. What you have witnessed is generational trauma being duplicated on your step-nephew, just as it was in your life. You have witnessed the precise dynamic that has produced the abusive environment: a particular person who entered the family when you were a child and gained license to act out some kind of domination complex over you and others in the home. Her violent approach was licensed by your father, who abrogated his responsibility by not protecting you. He also abrogated his responsibility to her children who absorbed both her mindset from birth, and learned from your father’s behaviour to accept her approach when he came into their lives.
The environment in which her disregulation was normalised still exists. Others mask the dysfunction because they haven’t learned that it was wrong, OR that even if they were uncomfortable they didn’t have the words, or the energy and psychological distance to address her directly to improve the lives of everyone around her.
Because this incident is so recent, I would try to distill my thoughts around these facts in the shortest communication to your father as possible and send it soon. Just saying these sentences could end the relationship, but you’d have said something true about the situation you witnessed, and the experience you had as a child.
Maybe, “X’s very bad treatment of children, and your okayness with it, is unacceptable to me. It never was acceptable to me, a person who also suffered her bullying behaviour as a child. It is certainly unacceptable to me as an adult witnessing it again yesterday. X [child’s name] was abused in our presence. He was screamed at, humiliated, and threatened with physical violence. No child deserves that kind of treatment, and adults witnessing abuse should be stopping it happening.”
You don’t need to threaten not to be in contact or anything more. Just saying the true things about what you saw, and what you experienced is taking a stand for yourself and your nephew.
[Although as others above have suggested, getting child services involved wouldn’t be out of order here.]
posted by honey-barbara at 9:40 PM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
"Apparently it was because he “had an attitude”
This is just shit violent people say to justify their anger and abuse. Everyone always has an attitude, it's impossible not to, so using it as an excuse for punishment is like punishing someone for having blood cells.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:59 AM on June 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is just shit violent people say to justify their anger and abuse. Everyone always has an attitude, it's impossible not to, so using it as an excuse for punishment is like punishing someone for having blood cells.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:59 AM on June 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Just here to echo that this was abuse.
I’ve never witnessed anything quite like this. I have witnessed a family member (who grew up in an abusive home) speak very, very, very harshly to their child. It made me feel sick. Like I couldn’t even look at them. I still feel guilty. And honestly, I still think she is an overall decent parent, just struggling with her own childhood traumas bubbling up. If it had been harsher, I don’t know what I would have done.
posted by samthemander at 2:38 PM on June 11, 2023
I’ve never witnessed anything quite like this. I have witnessed a family member (who grew up in an abusive home) speak very, very, very harshly to their child. It made me feel sick. Like I couldn’t even look at them. I still feel guilty. And honestly, I still think she is an overall decent parent, just struggling with her own childhood traumas bubbling up. If it had been harsher, I don’t know what I would have done.
posted by samthemander at 2:38 PM on June 11, 2023
So, I was this kid. I got screamed at nearly every day that I can remember as a child, for things as small as reading a book instead of socializing with other children “like a loser”. Here’s what I wish someone had done—
Step 1: Remember to center the child. Many of the above comments seem to be about how to deal with the abusive adult, but from my perspective that is just continuing to give her power and attention that she is seeking by acting out in this way. If possible, have interactions with the child (even small, innocuous ones) in which you praise any positive behavior and/or developing hobbies, really emphasize anything that he is doing that shows his own personality shining through. He loves water guns? Cool! Likes dinosaurs? How fascinating! Or whatever. Children (or grandchildren) of abusive adults often are consumed by those adults, never being allowed to develop themselves differently from their caregivers. Praise him and lift him up for what makes him HIM.
Step 2: Please PLEASE do not confront her directly about this incident. Someone with a personality who can do this to a child will not be receptive, and it will only cause further punishment for the child in question. You might want to talk to other adults in his life about keeping him away from this woman, but again, speaking from experience, she may smile and nod if you bring this up but he will get it later for airing their personal business. Even if he said nothing, he may be blamed and further abuse may occur.
Step 3: If you can handle it and it is possible, please stay in his life. I had several family members, one in particular, always on the fringes of my life as a kid. They never condoned my abusive parents behavior, but they were never openly opposed enough to it that the parent forbid contact. When I got older and began realizing what I had been through and started healing, this family member was right there to catch me. And I already had a good relationship/trust with her, as she was consistent and PAINFULLY kind to me as a young child, even if I wasn’t allowed to see her often.
posted by leafmealone at 5:39 PM on June 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
Step 1: Remember to center the child. Many of the above comments seem to be about how to deal with the abusive adult, but from my perspective that is just continuing to give her power and attention that she is seeking by acting out in this way. If possible, have interactions with the child (even small, innocuous ones) in which you praise any positive behavior and/or developing hobbies, really emphasize anything that he is doing that shows his own personality shining through. He loves water guns? Cool! Likes dinosaurs? How fascinating! Or whatever. Children (or grandchildren) of abusive adults often are consumed by those adults, never being allowed to develop themselves differently from their caregivers. Praise him and lift him up for what makes him HIM.
Step 2: Please PLEASE do not confront her directly about this incident. Someone with a personality who can do this to a child will not be receptive, and it will only cause further punishment for the child in question. You might want to talk to other adults in his life about keeping him away from this woman, but again, speaking from experience, she may smile and nod if you bring this up but he will get it later for airing their personal business. Even if he said nothing, he may be blamed and further abuse may occur.
Step 3: If you can handle it and it is possible, please stay in his life. I had several family members, one in particular, always on the fringes of my life as a kid. They never condoned my abusive parents behavior, but they were never openly opposed enough to it that the parent forbid contact. When I got older and began realizing what I had been through and started healing, this family member was right there to catch me. And I already had a good relationship/trust with her, as she was consistent and PAINFULLY kind to me as a young child, even if I wasn’t allowed to see her often.
posted by leafmealone at 5:39 PM on June 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: Update: I am not totally sure what I’m going to do. His mother (my stepsister) as well as my dad and other stepsister and their 3 other kids were all in the same room as me and didn’t seem too bothered. My dad, who is abusive too, did recognize that I couldn’t focus on our conversation and said, “What’s going on in there? What did he do?” And his mom said, “Well he was having an attitude.” His mom wouldn’t ever disagree with her mom (my step nephew’s grandma). After socializing a bit more they left.
They all think it is normal and okay. I felt so angry and triggered and confused. My stepmom has loving relationships with the kids almost of the time but then will threaten to beat their @$$ and this was the worst I’ve personally seen her go off on one of the little ones, though it happened a lot when I was growing up. My stepsisters dad passed of cancer when they were in middle school but he was also in and out of jail and things like that. So I feel they rely heavily on their mom and take right after her.
I am not really very close with my nieces and nephews because I try and keep distance from my family in general and when I am around them don’t ever feel very comfortable although you probably wouldn’t see why a lot of the times unless you knew the history. I am a bit awkward with kids but I do like talking to this nephew about things he likes like sports and gymnastics, although it seems when I try to engage him a lot of the time his mom will butt in and yell at him about something, like if we’re eating, she will start picking at what he’s eating and he better take a bite of that or she’ll kinda threaten him if he doesn’t eat then he can’t do that and I feel our conversations are short circuited a lot.
My stepmom can be “loving” and cuddles the kids and gives them kisses and attends to their needs but I see it all as fake because I know how she behaves behind closed doors and I detest her for that. If I ever accused her of mistreatment she would scream nastily that it’s all in my head and I’m too sensitive and my mom put it in my head and I just want sympathy, well that’s what she used to say.
I saw them again today at my sister’s and they all acted happy and normal and no bad blood that I saw.
If I were to call her out I don’t know what would happen because as I’ve said before when I did that as a child my dad instantly turned to rage and physical abuse and my stepmom lapped that up. I could see her turning around and yelling at me and telling me to get out of her house or pushing my dad to do something like that. Her daughter would defend her mom and say her son deserved it I’m sure.
I’m not surprised he has “issues” either, in fact I think he is a great kid doing his best with split up parents and I know at least his mom and grandma yell at him too much. They think they’re great moms though.
I really don’t know what I’m going to do, it will definitely blow up family relationships if I say anything. I’ve been distant from the family for a while now.
posted by anon1129 at 9:51 PM on June 11, 2023
They all think it is normal and okay. I felt so angry and triggered and confused. My stepmom has loving relationships with the kids almost of the time but then will threaten to beat their @$$ and this was the worst I’ve personally seen her go off on one of the little ones, though it happened a lot when I was growing up. My stepsisters dad passed of cancer when they were in middle school but he was also in and out of jail and things like that. So I feel they rely heavily on their mom and take right after her.
I am not really very close with my nieces and nephews because I try and keep distance from my family in general and when I am around them don’t ever feel very comfortable although you probably wouldn’t see why a lot of the times unless you knew the history. I am a bit awkward with kids but I do like talking to this nephew about things he likes like sports and gymnastics, although it seems when I try to engage him a lot of the time his mom will butt in and yell at him about something, like if we’re eating, she will start picking at what he’s eating and he better take a bite of that or she’ll kinda threaten him if he doesn’t eat then he can’t do that and I feel our conversations are short circuited a lot.
My stepmom can be “loving” and cuddles the kids and gives them kisses and attends to their needs but I see it all as fake because I know how she behaves behind closed doors and I detest her for that. If I ever accused her of mistreatment she would scream nastily that it’s all in my head and I’m too sensitive and my mom put it in my head and I just want sympathy, well that’s what she used to say.
I saw them again today at my sister’s and they all acted happy and normal and no bad blood that I saw.
If I were to call her out I don’t know what would happen because as I’ve said before when I did that as a child my dad instantly turned to rage and physical abuse and my stepmom lapped that up. I could see her turning around and yelling at me and telling me to get out of her house or pushing my dad to do something like that. Her daughter would defend her mom and say her son deserved it I’m sure.
I’m not surprised he has “issues” either, in fact I think he is a great kid doing his best with split up parents and I know at least his mom and grandma yell at him too much. They think they’re great moms though.
I really don’t know what I’m going to do, it will definitely blow up family relationships if I say anything. I’ve been distant from the family for a while now.
posted by anon1129 at 9:51 PM on June 11, 2023
Being screamed at like that did me a lot of harm. My therapist reports that if one adult had stood up for me it might not have been so traumatic, but I was alone with it and convinced I must deserve such treatment. Stand up for the kid, I guess?
posted by chiorlemas at 12:24 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by chiorlemas at 12:24 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh, man, I'm so sorry this happened. All of it, present and past. I imagine it's doubly and triply triggering, because you grew up being the target of this yourself and being brainwashed to think it was not abuse. Now you're seeing it happen to the next generation, and all the doubts come flooding back, watching people tell this poor kid that he deserves it somehow. It's like you're experiencing the brainwashing all over again. Yes, it is abuse, no question.
I agree with those who have said maybe let the kid know you see and you understand. It's a bit of a dilemma, because this is not a normal situation and sometimes you can end up sounding like you're telling them that it is. But abuse is terribly isolating and I think any sense of being seen and validated has got to be positive.
posted by BibiRose at 5:55 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I agree with those who have said maybe let the kid know you see and you understand. It's a bit of a dilemma, because this is not a normal situation and sometimes you can end up sounding like you're telling them that it is. But abuse is terribly isolating and I think any sense of being seen and validated has got to be positive.
posted by BibiRose at 5:55 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I do agree that this child needs to be validated and needs to understand that how they are treating him isn’t his fault and he isn’t a bad kid. He can be “annoying and defiant” but I think that’s a natural response to being constantly yelled at and “disciplined” through abuse. I did the same thing as him and was brave in standing up for what I felt was right and called out my stepmom’s wrong behavior but around 12 years old after being physically abused for it, that’s when I started to back down and go quiet and withdrawn, for which I’m now criticized for. I don’t want that to happen to him and I recognize myself in him and looking back I wish I would have went in there and called her out for it, and let him know it wasn’t okay, but I feel violence would have been directed towards me and it would have severed all relationships and directed a lot of hostility and anger towards me, which shouldn’t feel as big of an issue as it did in that moment, that child’s mental well-being is more important.
I don’t have a very close relationship with this nephew due to keeping my distance and being awkward and feel that anything I said he might probably repeat or talk about it to his mom or who knows who else.
posted by anon1129 at 7:34 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don’t have a very close relationship with this nephew due to keeping my distance and being awkward and feel that anything I said he might probably repeat or talk about it to his mom or who knows who else.
posted by anon1129 at 7:34 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Anon, a few thoughts:
1. You witnessed an incident of abuse. No doubt about it. I hope that this thread has validated your perception that this IS indeed abuse. That might help a little (though only a little) with the triggered feelings. You were a victim, too. This little kid was being abused in the same way you were. You are right to be alarmed. People who act like this is nothing are normalizing abuse and gaslighting you.
2. You don't have any allies among the other witnesses, no other voices of reason, and thus no support within this group. If you decide to confront the abuser, you will be utterly alone and they will band together against you. You are already triggered and and feeling alone - and you will be made to feel even worse when they all decide you are their common enemy.
3. Confronting the abuser is likely to do much more harm than good. Right now they all have an unspoken consensus to tolerate abuse and shut down questions about abusive behavior. As horrible as this is, it's not nearly as bad as the whole family explicitly and openly embracing abuse as good and necessary. If you stand against all of them, that is quite likely what will happen. They will likely band together on the principle of "abuse is good and right!" in order to take an opposing stance to yours in the confrontation. The next time the abuser yells at a child, she'll turn to the others and say, "And that's how it's done! None of that namby pamby Anon-style coddling, no sir!" and the whole group will loudly agree, pat her on the back, cheer her on, just to show that they are united against you. You can see how this is much worse for the abused child than merely a quiet tolerance of abuse and unspoken consensus not to question it.
4. But you can help by talking to the child. Even if you aren't close. Even if you will never see that child again. Even if this is a one-time conversation. Even if you can't keep the kid safe in any meaningful way, and this seems like such a paltry "nothing". It will help the kid IMMENSELY to be validated by you that yes, grandma *was* being mean and yes, the kid did nothing to deserve that meanness, and yes, the kid was *right* to stand up for himself. As an adult you are a voice to authority to any child. It will give him strength and solace to know that you agree with him. It may seem like nothing to you but it's not nothing to the child. It also poses no risk to you (won't make your triggered feelings worse) and it won't make life worse for him (doesn't change the dynamic of abuse in the family into something much worse).
The worst that can happen is that he tells someone, but so what if he does? What can they do? They might call you and try to yell at you, but you're an adult - you can hang up the phone or you can say, "No, let's talk when you're not yelling at me." And in general your response can just be, "Oh I felt bad for him, he seemed so hurt, and I comforted him. *shrug*" Like, you are not answerable to them. You are an independent adult. You don't have to give them the exact answers they are demanding. You can deflect and shrug and pretend there's someone at the door and change the subject and ask about their surgery and get very busy with making coffee and act excited about someone's new baby and say you were just trying to be nice in a "duh" kind of voice and pretend you're too stupid to properly understand their question and ask "what?" repeatedly and and and. Many MANY safe options are available to you. You are not going to be in any danger from this.
posted by MiraK at 8:04 AM on June 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
1. You witnessed an incident of abuse. No doubt about it. I hope that this thread has validated your perception that this IS indeed abuse. That might help a little (though only a little) with the triggered feelings. You were a victim, too. This little kid was being abused in the same way you were. You are right to be alarmed. People who act like this is nothing are normalizing abuse and gaslighting you.
2. You don't have any allies among the other witnesses, no other voices of reason, and thus no support within this group. If you decide to confront the abuser, you will be utterly alone and they will band together against you. You are already triggered and and feeling alone - and you will be made to feel even worse when they all decide you are their common enemy.
3. Confronting the abuser is likely to do much more harm than good. Right now they all have an unspoken consensus to tolerate abuse and shut down questions about abusive behavior. As horrible as this is, it's not nearly as bad as the whole family explicitly and openly embracing abuse as good and necessary. If you stand against all of them, that is quite likely what will happen. They will likely band together on the principle of "abuse is good and right!" in order to take an opposing stance to yours in the confrontation. The next time the abuser yells at a child, she'll turn to the others and say, "And that's how it's done! None of that namby pamby Anon-style coddling, no sir!" and the whole group will loudly agree, pat her on the back, cheer her on, just to show that they are united against you. You can see how this is much worse for the abused child than merely a quiet tolerance of abuse and unspoken consensus not to question it.
4. But you can help by talking to the child. Even if you aren't close. Even if you will never see that child again. Even if this is a one-time conversation. Even if you can't keep the kid safe in any meaningful way, and this seems like such a paltry "nothing". It will help the kid IMMENSELY to be validated by you that yes, grandma *was* being mean and yes, the kid did nothing to deserve that meanness, and yes, the kid was *right* to stand up for himself. As an adult you are a voice to authority to any child. It will give him strength and solace to know that you agree with him. It may seem like nothing to you but it's not nothing to the child. It also poses no risk to you (won't make your triggered feelings worse) and it won't make life worse for him (doesn't change the dynamic of abuse in the family into something much worse).
The worst that can happen is that he tells someone, but so what if he does? What can they do? They might call you and try to yell at you, but you're an adult - you can hang up the phone or you can say, "No, let's talk when you're not yelling at me." And in general your response can just be, "Oh I felt bad for him, he seemed so hurt, and I comforted him. *shrug*" Like, you are not answerable to them. You are an independent adult. You don't have to give them the exact answers they are demanding. You can deflect and shrug and pretend there's someone at the door and change the subject and ask about their surgery and get very busy with making coffee and act excited about someone's new baby and say you were just trying to be nice in a "duh" kind of voice and pretend you're too stupid to properly understand their question and ask "what?" repeatedly and and and. Many MANY safe options are available to you. You are not going to be in any danger from this.
posted by MiraK at 8:04 AM on June 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
That is a very wise response MiraK.
I made the assumption the OP was really considering No Contact in response to what she witnessed and felt about their upbringing.
I was a kid who could have used a comforting ally and this is a good way of providing the child with what he needs from at least one adult. I think studies have shown that even one ally in a dysfunctional natal family structure can salve mental and physical health in the years to come.
posted by honey-barbara at 6:02 PM on June 12, 2023
I made the assumption the OP was really considering No Contact in response to what she witnessed and felt about their upbringing.
I was a kid who could have used a comforting ally and this is a good way of providing the child with what he needs from at least one adult. I think studies have shown that even one ally in a dysfunctional natal family structure can salve mental and physical health in the years to come.
posted by honey-barbara at 6:02 PM on June 12, 2023
Response by poster: Last update, I would in an ideal world like to be no contact but I’m for some reason terrified of doing that. I do feel a call towards telling my nephew something to the effect of letting him know his feelings are valid. I don’t know what his overall feelings are towards his grandma but he said in that moment she was mean and he was absolutely right, she is a child abuser and bully which her kids will never see her as. I think at least his dad’s side has more wits about them, they don’t seem like abusers, at least not his grandma and great grandma on his dad’s side.
My dad is always offering help with things lately and checking in over text. So I feel bad going no contact but I’m still really angry about everyone just ignoring the child abuse. I saw them all again Sunday and now I’m burnt out and in need of restoration emotionally. And next weekend is Father’s Day. I should have went no contact a long time ago. I don’t even know how I’d get the opportunity to speak to my nephew in private, there has only been one instance of me talking with him alone ever about my new puppy.
I know there are more problems than I know of. About a year ago him and his mom got in a fight and he tried to run away and the cops were called. Idk. Like I said they think they’re the greatest moms and that the children are the problem. They parent through yelling and domination. I’m so sick of it.
posted by anon1129 at 7:43 PM on June 12, 2023
My dad is always offering help with things lately and checking in over text. So I feel bad going no contact but I’m still really angry about everyone just ignoring the child abuse. I saw them all again Sunday and now I’m burnt out and in need of restoration emotionally. And next weekend is Father’s Day. I should have went no contact a long time ago. I don’t even know how I’d get the opportunity to speak to my nephew in private, there has only been one instance of me talking with him alone ever about my new puppy.
I know there are more problems than I know of. About a year ago him and his mom got in a fight and he tried to run away and the cops were called. Idk. Like I said they think they’re the greatest moms and that the children are the problem. They parent through yelling and domination. I’m so sick of it.
posted by anon1129 at 7:43 PM on June 12, 2023
Best answer: You can reach out to your nephew openly, no need to keep your contact with him a secret. You can text his mom and say, "Hey, I was speaking with nephew about my puppy, thought he would like an update. Can I call him this evening?"
You won't be able to validate him about his grandma on this first call but you will have opened the door to to start communicating directly with him. Maybe you'll email him or follow him on Instagram or keep in touch on discord. Next time you see him at a family gathering, this gives you an opening to tell him what you need to tell him.
posted by MiraK at 6:14 AM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
You won't be able to validate him about his grandma on this first call but you will have opened the door to to start communicating directly with him. Maybe you'll email him or follow him on Instagram or keep in touch on discord. Next time you see him at a family gathering, this gives you an opening to tell him what you need to tell him.
posted by MiraK at 6:14 AM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I agree with everyone else that what you witnessed was absolutely abuse and absolutely unacceptable. Your family knows that you were abused by the elders in the current group too, and knows that you're still sticking around to some extent - since you're still showing up to family gatherings and so on. So they feel that you find it "acceptable" as well, through your tacit participation in family events - acceptable that it happened to you, that is. I agree with the others that there's no point in confronting any of the other adults here, because that will likely only injure the child more - if the adults get angry about you saying something about it to them, guess who they will take that anger out on? I also think it makes sense to try to reach out to your nephew (& nieces) more to let them know you are a "safe" adult - this can be really indirect contact, though, like sending birthday cards with positive affirming messages with "happy birthday, I am so proud of you" and that sort of thing. And you can make a point to see them and not overshare your own experience with the elders in the family with them - but that would take a good deal of work managing your own triggers and is perhaps not something you feel comfortable doing. I'm so sorry you and the children are going through this. It is awful. Hang in there.
posted by erattacorrige at 7:54 AM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by erattacorrige at 7:54 AM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Also wanted to add that I believe the reason for the fight was that everyone was playing with presents and socializing in one room (2 stepsisters, 3 other kids, my dad and stepmom) while my 10yo nephew was sitting in the living room on the couch, keeping to himself. I believe my stepmom went in there to see what he was doing and yelled at him to get in there and stop acting like that, to which he said he wasn’t doing anything, she said he’s too old to act like this, screaming ensued and she was threatening to beat him basically because he was “growling” back at her being abusive and she just wanted him to go in the party room and socialize, but he was upset, probably in part because he just got yelled at over and over at the pool and who knows what else.
posted by anon1129 at 10:31 AM on June 13, 2023
posted by anon1129 at 10:31 AM on June 13, 2023
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