Hydromancy help!
May 21, 2023 2:37 PM Subscribe
My high school students are trying out several methods of ancient (Roman) divination in class to learn how they worked. For years, I have used a method of hydromancy where they throw a piece of bread into a container of water and sinking = "yes"/floating = "no." However, due to food allergies, I really need to stop using bread in class. Can you think of a substitute that would also sometimes float/sometimes sink that we could use in the same way or an entirely different method of hydromancy that would still be simple that I could substitute? NO FOOD.
My previous method worked well because it's simple to do and interpret and only requires things I have around anyway (bread + a container + water from the sink), but the food thing is really a problem; I have to do something else. From Googling, I know hydromancy can involve things like observing ripple patterns from a cast stone or scrying (perhaps via oil in the water?) to observe shapes in the water. I don't know how to tell the students in a simple manner how to do/interpret either of those things (since I don't know how), and I don't know what non-food oil I could use anyway (Romans used olive oil for everything, which is right back to the "no food in the classroom" problem).
I could make something up for "number of ripples" (>5 = yes or something) and have them just throw a stone into the dish, but is there a better solution I'm not seeing here?
A million bonus points for something based on actual attested ancient practice (like the bread thing).
My previous method worked well because it's simple to do and interpret and only requires things I have around anyway (bread + a container + water from the sink), but the food thing is really a problem; I have to do something else. From Googling, I know hydromancy can involve things like observing ripple patterns from a cast stone or scrying (perhaps via oil in the water?) to observe shapes in the water. I don't know how to tell the students in a simple manner how to do/interpret either of those things (since I don't know how), and I don't know what non-food oil I could use anyway (Romans used olive oil for everything, which is right back to the "no food in the classroom" problem).
I could make something up for "number of ripples" (>5 = yes or something) and have them just throw a stone into the dish, but is there a better solution I'm not seeing here?
A million bonus points for something based on actual attested ancient practice (like the bread thing).
Rice cakes? This random sort, not the Korean kind. I think they'd float initially and sink once they soak up enough water.
posted by atomicstone at 2:49 PM on May 21, 2023
posted by atomicstone at 2:49 PM on May 21, 2023
Response by poster: If it helps, we also already do: astragalomancy (with [clay] knucklebones), bibliomancy (via a copy of the Aeneid), alectryomancy (I have a children's toy animal* that sings [i.e. eats] only sometimes when you feed it some plastic shapes), augury (via a video of birds), haruspicy (a little toy sheep with some "entrails" inside to interpret), oracle (a magic 8 ball), astrology (via some made-up horoscopes), and oneiromancy (a made-up dream with relevant sections from Artemidorus). The hydromancy one fills the niche of "requires (almost) no skill or travel or money" and therefore accessible to most people in the ancient world.
*It's a hippo not a rooster but it was the best I could do!
posted by lysimache at 3:09 PM on May 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
*It's a hippo not a rooster but it was the best I could do!
posted by lysimache at 3:09 PM on May 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
A clod of potting soil, peat moss, or something similar?
posted by Winnie the Proust at 3:17 PM on May 21, 2023
posted by Winnie the Proust at 3:17 PM on May 21, 2023
Seeds/beans. Many people put seeds in water and use whether or not they sink as an indicator of viability.
posted by xo at 3:32 PM on May 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by xo at 3:32 PM on May 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Rude, but sometimes poop floats (high fat content) and sometimes sinks.
Paper - shredded or confetti usually floats, but not for long, so you could use the length of time. I don't know if glossy, clay-coated paper floats for a shorter or longer time.
Dollar bills are made of linen paper and the floatability has to do with age and moisture content.
Seeds are a great idea, dry beans are seeds. Students could look outside for seeds, too.
posted by theora55 at 3:35 PM on May 21, 2023
Paper - shredded or confetti usually floats, but not for long, so you could use the length of time. I don't know if glossy, clay-coated paper floats for a shorter or longer time.
Dollar bills are made of linen paper and the floatability has to do with age and moisture content.
Seeds are a great idea, dry beans are seeds. Students could look outside for seeds, too.
posted by theora55 at 3:35 PM on May 21, 2023
One form of traditional Russian New Year's Eve divination is dripping wax into a bowl of water, then interpreting the patterns on the underside. I don't know if that would work for your purposes, since water is kind of a secondary agent there.
posted by virve at 3:39 PM on May 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by virve at 3:39 PM on May 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Scrying is often just soft-focusing your eyes in a trance state, preferably being in a dim room by candlelight, and kinda hallucinating into the water, to some extent. Maybe hard to do with kids (the concentration/quiet needed for trance, plus the dark, I mean). There are people who drip ink, wax (like virve said), or food dye into the water and interpret the swirls or blobs -- there's not a "key," really, from what I've seen, it's just things like "Ooh, that kinda looks like a knife! Maybe I should cut them off!" (Think how you'd "interpret" clouds.)
posted by lapis at 7:15 PM on May 21, 2023
posted by lapis at 7:15 PM on May 21, 2023
You say no food. Raw eggs float or sink depending on how old they are. You could even choose your probability distribution by aging your eggs, assuming you have easy access to fresh eggs.
posted by at at 8:29 PM on May 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by at at 8:29 PM on May 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
A floating sinking submarine object using baking powder [instructables]. Submarines not very Roman, could 3-D print a hollow wolf? Or Sugru is your pal. There's a meta-project in there about fixing the system [more powder, less powder] to get the answer The Priest wants. See also The Dipping Bird.
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:40 PM on May 21, 2023
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:40 PM on May 21, 2023
How about substituting pieces of sponge? Natural or synthetic, different types colours could be good. No idea if they do sink or float but could be worth experimenting.
posted by ElasticParrot at 2:47 AM on May 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ElasticParrot at 2:47 AM on May 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
How about Carromancy, where you pour molten wax into water, and use the resulting solidified shapes to try and predict what the future holds? Wikipedia says (admittedly slightly vaguely) that it has roots in ancient Celtic and Roman times.
I was once at a party where someone was doing the same kind of thing but with molten tin, which is probably a little harder to swing in a classroom setting (though I'm guessing he was someone who moulded his own action figures for RPGs, so not impossible if you can get your hands on that kit).
It's fun because the weird shapes are so abstract and open to interpretation, (and with the metal ones, people can keep them as a souvenir!): "Oh, hey! It looks like... you're going to get a small dog soon, but it'll only have three legs and will have a banana in its mouth and an incredibly long nose!" or whatever.
The metal version, FWIW, is Molybdomancy, which has even more citations for real-world use, so you could teach about both, but only demonstrate with wax.
I guess you could achieve the wax version with a candle, let it burn down a little so there's a pool of molten wax near the top, blow out the flame, hand it to someone and let them pour the wax into water. Or I think you can get burners that have a flame underneath a bowl with wax beads in the top, in which case you just make sure the experimentee is wearing gloves, hand them the wee bowl, and let them pour.
posted by penguin pie at 3:59 AM on May 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was once at a party where someone was doing the same kind of thing but with molten tin, which is probably a little harder to swing in a classroom setting (though I'm guessing he was someone who moulded his own action figures for RPGs, so not impossible if you can get your hands on that kit).
It's fun because the weird shapes are so abstract and open to interpretation, (and with the metal ones, people can keep them as a souvenir!): "Oh, hey! It looks like... you're going to get a small dog soon, but it'll only have three legs and will have a banana in its mouth and an incredibly long nose!" or whatever.
The metal version, FWIW, is Molybdomancy, which has even more citations for real-world use, so you could teach about both, but only demonstrate with wax.
I guess you could achieve the wax version with a candle, let it burn down a little so there's a pool of molten wax near the top, blow out the flame, hand it to someone and let them pour the wax into water. Or I think you can get burners that have a flame underneath a bowl with wax beads in the top, in which case you just make sure the experimentee is wearing gloves, hand them the wee bowl, and let them pour.
posted by penguin pie at 3:59 AM on May 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Paper towel seems like it might do a similar thing depending on its surface area and absorbancy. Tear a sheet into rough quarters, perhaps, and have each student crumple theirs as they are so moved?
posted by teremala at 4:52 AM on May 22, 2023
posted by teremala at 4:52 AM on May 22, 2023
Are you willing to cheat? I'm thinking you may be able to find things that don't sink in clean waterdue to surface tension but which would sink in soapy water.
I also wonder if a small square of, say, bedsheets would sink if clean, but would float if sprayed with Scotchgard in advance and set on the water gently.
You can change the buoyancy properties of water by dissolving a lot of salt in it. You can change the surface tension by adding some detergent. There are tricks based on the properties of lycopodium powder.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:18 AM on May 22, 2023
I also wonder if a small square of, say, bedsheets would sink if clean, but would float if sprayed with Scotchgard in advance and set on the water gently.
You can change the buoyancy properties of water by dissolving a lot of salt in it. You can change the surface tension by adding some detergent. There are tricks based on the properties of lycopodium powder.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:18 AM on May 22, 2023
I think instead of real eggs, just use the plastic Easter egg ones. Fill them up with a few things for sink versus floats, they'll last forever in a little kit, no allergens. The person holding it may know if it's going to float or not but if gives you an easy yes/no framework and is constantly reproducible without any thought.
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:36 AM on May 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by AlexiaSky at 6:36 AM on May 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
The person holding it may know if it's going to float or not
You could devise a divining ritual that involves dissolving a handful of salt into the water in a suitably mystical looking testing vessel before dropping in a randomly selected plastic egg.
When you're preparing the eggs, weight them so that they all sink reliably in fresh water but each needs a different minimum amount of dissolved salt to make it float, somewhere between half a handful and two. The weights will still end up close enough to each other that you'd need scales to pick the difference. That, plus the imprecision inherent in measuring salt by the handful, should let you build a workably unpredictable oomancy kit.
posted by flabdablet at 8:36 AM on May 22, 2023
You could devise a divining ritual that involves dissolving a handful of salt into the water in a suitably mystical looking testing vessel before dropping in a randomly selected plastic egg.
When you're preparing the eggs, weight them so that they all sink reliably in fresh water but each needs a different minimum amount of dissolved salt to make it float, somewhere between half a handful and two. The weights will still end up close enough to each other that you'd need scales to pick the difference. That, plus the imprecision inherent in measuring salt by the handful, should let you build a workably unpredictable oomancy kit.
posted by flabdablet at 8:36 AM on May 22, 2023
Place a sieve or basket on the water. If it sinks you get one answer, if it floats the other.
The Romans actually used the act of carrying water in a sieve to judge the guilt of a vestal virgin. Tuccia was able to carry a basket of water from the Tiber to the Temple of Vesta which established her perfect chastity and sinless state.
You might prefer to attempt to carry or raise the basket of water without it spilling the way Tuccia did - and bonus, it might be unpredictable, depending on the humidity.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:48 PM on May 22, 2023
The Romans actually used the act of carrying water in a sieve to judge the guilt of a vestal virgin. Tuccia was able to carry a basket of water from the Tiber to the Temple of Vesta which established her perfect chastity and sinless state.
You might prefer to attempt to carry or raise the basket of water without it spilling the way Tuccia did - and bonus, it might be unpredictable, depending on the humidity.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:48 PM on May 22, 2023
Also, have you told them why Haruspexy genuinely works?
When the Romans wanted to decide where to place farms or camps and things they would pick a likely looking bit of land and capture a wild animal from that location. The examination of its entrails would reveal different things. Mineral deficiencies would be indicated by the colour of the liver and other organs. Lack of iron meant the organs would be paler than normal. The presence of toxins would be indicated if the liver of a young animal was in bad condition. The presence of parasites in a wild goat would indicate that you wouldn't want to pasture domestic sheep or goats there either, so they searched carefully for the sort of worms that get into calves nostrils while they graze and end up in their lungs, as well as for tapeworms and trichina.
"This would be a very bad place to settle! The Gods have spoken! If we pasture our herds here they will sicken and die!"
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:55 PM on May 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
When the Romans wanted to decide where to place farms or camps and things they would pick a likely looking bit of land and capture a wild animal from that location. The examination of its entrails would reveal different things. Mineral deficiencies would be indicated by the colour of the liver and other organs. Lack of iron meant the organs would be paler than normal. The presence of toxins would be indicated if the liver of a young animal was in bad condition. The presence of parasites in a wild goat would indicate that you wouldn't want to pasture domestic sheep or goats there either, so they searched carefully for the sort of worms that get into calves nostrils while they graze and end up in their lungs, as well as for tapeworms and trichina.
"This would be a very bad place to settle! The Gods have spoken! If we pasture our herds here they will sicken and die!"
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:55 PM on May 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
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boatbread)? You can look up cleromancy or osteomancy for ideas on how to arrange this although if you're a high school teacher with a course on ancient divination you probably know more than Google does!posted by babelfish at 2:48 PM on May 21, 2023