The Grand Old Duke of North York

March 1, 2023 7:26 AM

Can the king appoint dukes and other noble titles for places in Canada? Like why not make Harry the Duke of Vancouver?
posted by If only I had a penguin... to Grab Bag (17 answers total)

It would seem that this debate was largely settled in 1917, and this concept was replaced by awards like Order of Canada.

I’m pretty sure Prince Harry is not a citizen of Canada anyway, and I certainly don’t want him (or anyone) as the Duke of my city.
posted by vanitas at 7:44 AM on March 1, 2023 [2 favorites]

No, not for the past hundred years or so. Canada has its own system of honours (see Order of Canada) and these aren't hereditary.

Also of note is that the Governor General has been a Canadian since Vincent Massey.
posted by TORunner at 7:45 AM on March 1, 2023

Response by poster: It would seem that this debate was largely settled in 1917, and this concept was replaced by awards like Order of Canada.

But the Wikipedia article says this:

establish a Government of Canada policy requesting the sovereign, in the right of the United Kingdom, not to grant knighthoods, baronetcies and peerages to Canadians, and set the precedent for later policies restricting Canadians from accepting titles from foreign countries.

But I'm not talking about the king doing it in the right of the United Kingdom, but rather in the right of the King of Canada and it wouldn't be a title from a foreign country, it would be a title from Canada. So yes, if you have to be a citizen of the place you're a duke of, then Harry wouldn't currently qualify...but the harry addendum was just an example, and not really the gist of my question.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:55 AM on March 1, 2023

Point of curiosity, though: there's still one title remaining from the Ancien Régime in Canada – the Baron de Longueuil. Longueuil is a suburb of Montreal, and Wikipedia says the current holder of the title is a Scottish doctor (and second cousin to King Charles III).

There are also two extant British titles with connections to Montreal: the Baron Strathcona and Mount Royal, and the Baron Shaughnessy.

The first Baron Strathcona and Mount Royal was a Scot who came to Canada in the 19th century and did a lot of business and building, including endowing the Royal Victoria hospital and lots of other philanthropy. Eventually he left Canada and died in England.

Baron Shaughnessy was a railway baron, originally American, who built a magnificent house in Montreal which is now part of the Canadian Centre for Architecture. The neighbourhood around the museum is known as Shaughnessy Village. The current holder of the title is the actor Charles Shaughnessy, who played the father in the TV show The Nanny.

As far as I know, none of these people have lived in Canada for generations.
posted by zadcat at 8:01 AM on March 1, 2023 [3 favorites]

Further point of curiosity: Conrad Black, born in Montreal, renounced his Canadian citizenship so he could accept a British title. It was the only way he was allowed to do it.

Black also had an Order of Canada but it was removed after his conviction in the U.S. for fraud.

He has tried to resume his Canadian citizenship but, so far, no dice.
posted by zadcat at 8:04 AM on March 1, 2023 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: He has tried to resume his Canadian citizenship but, so far, no dice.

But has been allowed to immigrate to Canada and live here as an immigrant despite having been convicted of a serious crime. [angry emoji].
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:14 AM on March 1, 2023 [4 favorites]

But I'm not talking about the king doing it in the right of the United Kingdom, but rather in the right of the King of Canada and it wouldn't be a title from a foreign country, it would be a title from Canada. So yes, if you have to be a citizen of the place you're a duke of, then Harry wouldn't currently qualify...but the harry addendum was just an example, and not really the gist of my question.

I don't think it's a right of the King of Canada. We don't have peerages.

https://gg.ca/en/honours/canadian-honours
https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/protocol-guidelines-special-event/table-precedence-canada.html
https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/protocol-guidelines-special-event/table-titles-canada.html
posted by TORunner at 9:10 AM on March 1, 2023 [1 favorite]

I don't believe the King or Queen of Canada can name Canadian peers or baronets because there's no legal right for them to do that in Canada. All the historical and extant "Canadian" peers are really either UK peers or French peers.

I'm not sure if there is a specific constitutional ban on peerage in Canada the way there is in the US but it seems like it would certainly be contrary to the Canadian charter on rights and freedoms.
posted by muddgirl at 9:54 AM on March 1, 2023

There are orders of honour in Canada but no peerage.

Canada doesn't have a House of Lords. Our upper house is the Senate (which isn't elected like the U.S. senate, but is appointed by the sitting government). Getting an Order of Canada doesn't make you a senator, they're separate things.
posted by zadcat at 10:58 AM on March 1, 2023 [1 favorite]

I can find an example of the Queen appointing a New Zealand citizen as a life peer of the United Kingdom: Lord Cooke of Thorndon, the pre-eminent New Zealand judge of the 20th century. (Thorndon is a suburb in Wellington, very close to the courts where Cooke sat).

From skimming the Life Peer page on Wikipedia, it seems as though it is open to UK or Commonwealth citizens.

So it's not an honour within the New Zealand honours system (we don't have Dukes or Barons either). But it is open to New Zealanders. I'd assume that, like Cooke, someone appointed under the system would take a title that reflected their place of birth or work, so you could presumably have Lord X of Vancouver, if Lord X were Canadian.
posted by Pink Frost at 12:28 PM on March 1, 2023

I'd assume that, like Cooke, someone appointed under the system would take a title that reflected their place of birth or work, so you could presumably have Lord X of Vancouver, if Lord X were Canadian.

Nope. See the Conrad Black stuff above. He had to give up his Canadian citizenship to accept a UK peerage.
posted by TORunner at 12:52 PM on March 1, 2023

Response by poster: Nope. See the Conrad Black stuff above. He had to give up his Canadian citizenship to accept a UK peerage.

Again, I'm not talking about a UK peerage. I was asking about a Canadian title. Which I assumed would not get yo a seat in the upper house, just like I think most UK peerages don't get you a seat anymore. I think mudgirl answered it, though, maybe? I'm not sure which section it would violate exactly, but it seems like certainly the spirit of equality rights would be violated if not any of the specific things metioned.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:22 PM on March 1, 2023

I think it's a "rose by any other name" thing. Perhaps the King could start naming "Barons of Canada" but they would have none of the rights or privileges that peers had in the 1800s when Canada became independent. For example one of the last remaining rights of the UK peerage is the right to counsel the sovereign, either on a privy council or one-on-one audience. Well the Canadian constitution instead defines how the Canadian privy council is formed and so notionally, it has little to do with which king your father's father's father backed in a civil war.

Over the last 150ish years the rights & privileges of the UK peerage have eroded so there is certainly less distinction today than in 1860.
posted by muddgirl at 3:07 PM on March 1, 2023

The Wikipedia article cited above, The Canadian Titles Debate, while sounding dry, describes the current situation and some anomalous situations that have arisen, mostly due to a kind of porousness between Canada and the UK which has slowly been solidifying over time.

Like many things in the UK constitutional realm, some of this stuff hangs in an area where it's understood, but not exactly actionable in law.

I think it would be fair to say that if King Charles started handing out honours to Canadian citizens at this point, it would cause something of a constitutional crisis. So he isn't going to do that.
posted by zadcat at 4:05 PM on March 1, 2023 [4 favorites]

Which I assumed would not get yo a seat in the upper house, just like I think most UK peerages don't get you a seat anymore

If you are given a life peerage in the UK you are entitled to a seat in the House of Lords (but some don't bother at all, or to varying degrees). Although it's no longer the case that hereditary peers automatically get a seat.
posted by fabius at 5:19 AM on March 2, 2023 [1 favorite]

Nope. See the Conrad Black stuff above. He had to give up his Canadian citizenship to accept a UK peerage.


Oh gosh, I'm so sorry. Really must remember to always read the whole thread. Apologies to If only I had a penguin.... The danger of having a little knowledge (NZ and Canada are both ex-British colonies with similar systems) but not enough knowledge to recognise the differences.
posted by Pink Frost at 11:26 AM on March 2, 2023

Maybe somewhat tangential (?) but Louis Mountbatten was created "Earl Mountbatten of Burma" which is one of those very weird British titles that doesn't follow the typical pattern (see also "Earl Spencer" not "Earl of Spencer"). The Burma bit was because he was Allied commander when the Allies retook Burma from Japan, but the title was not a life peerage so there is now a 3rd Earl Mountbatten of Burma who has nothing whatsoever to do with Burma.

So theoretically it could be "Prince Harry, Duke Mountbatten-Windsor of Vancouver"? (tongue firmly in cheek here).
posted by Preserver at 5:28 PM on March 2, 2023