How do I help my kid develop perseverance and recover after setbacks?
February 27, 2023 10:49 AM Subscribe
My daughter is 5 years old. She is amazing, hits all her milestones, she's learning to read, she's very social. I have very few concerns. However, at the beginning of the year her teacher mentioned that she has a tendency towards getting very frustrated and simply stopping doing what she is supposed to be doing after small setbacks. More recently this has become a pattern at home where something small goes wrong, she gets very frustrated, has a meltdown and refuses to engage.
Example 1: she was drawing a picture of a mermaid for her uncle, she didn't do it exactly right like she had before, she tore up the drawing, proceeded to have an irrecoverable meltdown.
Example 2: while working on reading, she will fly through what she knows, when she encounters a word she doesn't know she will try once or twice but if she can't get it she will just stop and refuse to move on despite encouragement.
Example 3: she asked to be signed up for the soccer team, during practice it was clear that some kids were better than her, when she struggled with dribbling or kicking she would get frustrated and just lay down on the turf. She could recover from time to time but not without a ton of effort and coaching, and even then it was like pulling teeth.
I asked her if she has meltdowns like this at school, and she said she doesn't because she knows she's "not allowed to". But clearly her teacher is picking up on it enough to mention it to us.
Are there strategies that work well to help teach perseverance? Or how to recover after small setbacks? For the past year I just thought this was developmentally normal, but I've been seeing it more than I'd expect especially this far into the school year, and it seems to have gotten more pronounced at home. I normally don't hyper focus on behaviors and take a more relaxed parenting approach, but I worry that this behavioral pattern will lead to issues both in and outside of school. I'm a huge believer in learning through failure and trial and error, and I'm just worried she's missing the capacity to do the same.
No other big changes in her life outside of starting kindergarten on the youngish side (she turned 5 in September). She does snore and so we had her evaluated for possible sleep related breathing problems but the ENT reassured us, but this winter has been tough with so many URIs and so this may be playing a small role.
Example 1: she was drawing a picture of a mermaid for her uncle, she didn't do it exactly right like she had before, she tore up the drawing, proceeded to have an irrecoverable meltdown.
Example 2: while working on reading, she will fly through what she knows, when she encounters a word she doesn't know she will try once or twice but if she can't get it she will just stop and refuse to move on despite encouragement.
Example 3: she asked to be signed up for the soccer team, during practice it was clear that some kids were better than her, when she struggled with dribbling or kicking she would get frustrated and just lay down on the turf. She could recover from time to time but not without a ton of effort and coaching, and even then it was like pulling teeth.
I asked her if she has meltdowns like this at school, and she said she doesn't because she knows she's "not allowed to". But clearly her teacher is picking up on it enough to mention it to us.
Are there strategies that work well to help teach perseverance? Or how to recover after small setbacks? For the past year I just thought this was developmentally normal, but I've been seeing it more than I'd expect especially this far into the school year, and it seems to have gotten more pronounced at home. I normally don't hyper focus on behaviors and take a more relaxed parenting approach, but I worry that this behavioral pattern will lead to issues both in and outside of school. I'm a huge believer in learning through failure and trial and error, and I'm just worried she's missing the capacity to do the same.
No other big changes in her life outside of starting kindergarten on the youngish side (she turned 5 in September). She does snore and so we had her evaluated for possible sleep related breathing problems but the ENT reassured us, but this winter has been tough with so many URIs and so this may be playing a small role.
A tip I got from a coach is to make it explicit with my kids like this: "Are you exercising your stick-to-it (persistence) muscle right now, or are you exercising your quit muscle?"
In this particular coach's case if my child said "...my quit muscle" he would, with cheer, say, "well why would you practice THAT?"
It takes a certain joie de vivre to pull it off but we still use that language in our family. We don't win every battle but hopefully the war is not lost. :)
posted by warriorqueen at 11:16 AM on February 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
In this particular coach's case if my child said "...my quit muscle" he would, with cheer, say, "well why would you practice THAT?"
It takes a certain joie de vivre to pull it off but we still use that language in our family. We don't win every battle but hopefully the war is not lost. :)
posted by warriorqueen at 11:16 AM on February 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
When she does something well, do you frame the praise in terms of results or in terms of effort? When she is struggling with something, do you explicitly praise her for trying hard? It sounds like she might be invested in being good at [x], so much that a struggle to do something else threatens her self-perception and it's easier to just quit. This can definitely be an issue for precocious kids. But being good at trying hard is its own important skill!
(Note: you don't have to be insane about this approach the way some parents are. It's still okay to say that the picture she drew is pretty. Just sometimes also say "wow, I can see you really worked hard on this!" or "I saw you erasing and redrawing a few times, that's really good effort!")
posted by praemunire at 11:40 AM on February 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
(Note: you don't have to be insane about this approach the way some parents are. It's still okay to say that the picture she drew is pretty. Just sometimes also say "wow, I can see you really worked hard on this!" or "I saw you erasing and redrawing a few times, that's really good effort!")
posted by praemunire at 11:40 AM on February 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
Right, so let's take a few steps back. Right now you're focusing on the behavior you'd prefer, rather than what your kiddo is dealing with. It sounds like she's frustrated or mad when she's not "good" at something, or when she's not as good as she perceives others to be. Maybe try talking to her about that and validating her feelings?
It totally sucks when you can't kick the ball as well as you want, or as well as those other kids. It sucks when you can't color in the lines. It sucks that you can't make bread like grandma did. Whatever. Sometimes it feels easier not to do something than to do it poorly. It's a kind of perfectionism thing.
So I think it would be great to talk about the frustration. "It's tough when you can't do something well, isn't it?"
Also, some ways you and your co-parent might unintentionally be contributing to this: do you ever praise your kiddo for outcomes or or perceived traits or being good/smart more than effort? I think a lot of us do this without realizing it. "You're so smart! You are so strong! You are really pretty! Your drawing is beautiful!" Instead of, "Wow, you tried really hard!" Or, "I love the colors in your picture. Did you have fun drawing it?"
This research is a handful of years old, but when my kids were little, I remember reading a bunch about how important it is to teach kids that we grow in skills and smarts and talent. If we tell kids they are smart, then they don't want to do things that might make it seem like they aren't smart. If we tell kids they're fast, they don't want to run around with kids who can run faster.
Kids who are taught that the brain is a muscle that has to be exercised are less scared of failing on tests because they know that failure is part of learning. Kids who are taught that you have to practice kicking the ball around are less frustrated when they can't kick it well. Same with art, same with life.
If you and your co-parent have any perfectionist tendencies, or if you emphasize how amazing she is (and I suspect that based on the comment about her hitting milestones), then you might think about reframing the way you talk about other people and yourselves and your kiddo. Praise effort, focus on the fun of sports and creativity, less on outcome and perceived traits.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:47 AM on February 27, 2023 [26 favorites]
It totally sucks when you can't kick the ball as well as you want, or as well as those other kids. It sucks when you can't color in the lines. It sucks that you can't make bread like grandma did. Whatever. Sometimes it feels easier not to do something than to do it poorly. It's a kind of perfectionism thing.
So I think it would be great to talk about the frustration. "It's tough when you can't do something well, isn't it?"
Also, some ways you and your co-parent might unintentionally be contributing to this: do you ever praise your kiddo for outcomes or or perceived traits or being good/smart more than effort? I think a lot of us do this without realizing it. "You're so smart! You are so strong! You are really pretty! Your drawing is beautiful!" Instead of, "Wow, you tried really hard!" Or, "I love the colors in your picture. Did you have fun drawing it?"
This research is a handful of years old, but when my kids were little, I remember reading a bunch about how important it is to teach kids that we grow in skills and smarts and talent. If we tell kids they are smart, then they don't want to do things that might make it seem like they aren't smart. If we tell kids they're fast, they don't want to run around with kids who can run faster.
Kids who are taught that the brain is a muscle that has to be exercised are less scared of failing on tests because they know that failure is part of learning. Kids who are taught that you have to practice kicking the ball around are less frustrated when they can't kick it well. Same with art, same with life.
If you and your co-parent have any perfectionist tendencies, or if you emphasize how amazing she is (and I suspect that based on the comment about her hitting milestones), then you might think about reframing the way you talk about other people and yourselves and your kiddo. Praise effort, focus on the fun of sports and creativity, less on outcome and perceived traits.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:47 AM on February 27, 2023 [26 favorites]
I think...growing up is a marathon and not a sprint. I would focus less correcting the specific behaviors when she doesn't do as well as she likes (try not to feed them by paying too much mind to them in the moment, but do sportscast her feelings if that doesn't annoy her too much) and more on trying to reduce stress and create more opportunities for a light-hearted and warm and silly and fun environment overall. That may mean more/better sleep, more downtime, physical activity, whatever. I think she'll get there - she's very young and kindergarten is new and stressful, and it's got to be hard to be one of the youngest in her class. Modeling behavior where something doesn't go your way and you feel frustrated but then just say, "Whoops! That sure didn't go how I wanted it! Let me try again!" might go a long way, but I think she'll get there as the developmental differences in her cohort even out a bit.
Oh and anecdata that my kid is generally a lot less meltdown prone at 7 than she was at 4-5. We get obnoxious behavior and slammed doors instead but much less paralysis and upset.
posted by vunder at 12:02 PM on February 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh and anecdata that my kid is generally a lot less meltdown prone at 7 than she was at 4-5. We get obnoxious behavior and slammed doors instead but much less paralysis and upset.
posted by vunder at 12:02 PM on February 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
With reading words she doesn't know, if she knows strategies like sounding out syllable by syllable? One good technique for that is to cover the word with your finger and then slowly reveal the word bit by bit, which forces you to break the word up into parts instead of tackling it all at once. If she's not willing to do that, maybe you could tell her it's okay but to read the word but if she can't then she should say (sing? rap?) the names of the letters? Again as a way of getting her to at last grapple with the actual word a bit instead of just skipping it.
Besides modeling a "oops, let's try again" approach, you can also model turning mistakes into something good. Like if you draw a mermaid and it's not perfect then maybe you can put some googly eyes on it and make it into something funny. Or if you make some food and it doesn't come out the way you wanted, sometimes you can make a smiley face on it with ketchup, or put some other tasty ingredients or flavorings in it. And so on.
I too was wondering if she was getting enough sleep, since I know I have less patience the more tired I get. It sounds like you have that covered, but maybe it's worth casually tracking her behavior a bit to see if this tens to happen more when she's hungry or hadn't slept as much and so on.
With sports I wish I had known as a kid how much of a difference practice makes, but delayed gratification and faith in an eventual, possibly far-off payoff are hard to teach even for an adult.
posted by trig at 12:50 PM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Besides modeling a "oops, let's try again" approach, you can also model turning mistakes into something good. Like if you draw a mermaid and it's not perfect then maybe you can put some googly eyes on it and make it into something funny. Or if you make some food and it doesn't come out the way you wanted, sometimes you can make a smiley face on it with ketchup, or put some other tasty ingredients or flavorings in it. And so on.
I too was wondering if she was getting enough sleep, since I know I have less patience the more tired I get. It sounds like you have that covered, but maybe it's worth casually tracking her behavior a bit to see if this tens to happen more when she's hungry or hadn't slept as much and so on.
With sports I wish I had known as a kid how much of a difference practice makes, but delayed gratification and faith in an eventual, possibly far-off payoff are hard to teach even for an adult.
posted by trig at 12:50 PM on February 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have a 5 year old and I have noticed improvement in this after doing two things:
1. Like trig mentioned, modeling making mistakes myself and how to recover / make them into something different. I sometimes even make a mistake on purpose now and then, especially when we're working on something together like a drawing.
2. Talking about what we can do when we are frustrated. For a while my kid would hit himself in the head when frustrated, it was horrible. After he was calm I said something like, "I noticed you were really frustrated there. It makes sense - putting those Legos together can be so tough sometimes! Let's brainstorm some other things we can do when we are frustrated." and it ended up with him telling me a hug would help in those moments, and he also thought of some things he could say to express his frustration. Now when I see him starting to get frustrated, I offer him a hug. (and he doesn't necessarily ask for / need it, but the behavior got better).
posted by beyond_pink at 1:31 PM on February 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
1. Like trig mentioned, modeling making mistakes myself and how to recover / make them into something different. I sometimes even make a mistake on purpose now and then, especially when we're working on something together like a drawing.
2. Talking about what we can do when we are frustrated. For a while my kid would hit himself in the head when frustrated, it was horrible. After he was calm I said something like, "I noticed you were really frustrated there. It makes sense - putting those Legos together can be so tough sometimes! Let's brainstorm some other things we can do when we are frustrated." and it ended up with him telling me a hug would help in those moments, and he also thought of some things he could say to express his frustration. Now when I see him starting to get frustrated, I offer him a hug. (and he doesn't necessarily ask for / need it, but the behavior got better).
posted by beyond_pink at 1:31 PM on February 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
I saw a quote on social media (if anyone knows the original source…) that hit me hard.
We teach our boys to be brave and our girls to be perfect.
It was in the context of women/girls in coding classes and how they would rather show nothing, than something that wasn’t perfect. That girls would say they didn’t know what to code, but in reality they had written code, and erased it.
As someone with perfectionism traits and gets easily frustrated by it, even into my 30s, I agree it’s about the journey, not the goal. Also about removing the idea of “perfect” or “right” or “good” and “bad”. Bob Ross’s phrase “we don’t make mistakes, only happy accidents” is helpful.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:32 PM on February 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
We teach our boys to be brave and our girls to be perfect.
It was in the context of women/girls in coding classes and how they would rather show nothing, than something that wasn’t perfect. That girls would say they didn’t know what to code, but in reality they had written code, and erased it.
As someone with perfectionism traits and gets easily frustrated by it, even into my 30s, I agree it’s about the journey, not the goal. Also about removing the idea of “perfect” or “right” or “good” and “bad”. Bob Ross’s phrase “we don’t make mistakes, only happy accidents” is helpful.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:32 PM on February 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
So, I was like this as a kid, and to some degree am still like this as an adult. Around age 8 I had a meltdown about how I couldn't draw as well as Leonardo da Vinci (yes, really) and that meant I shouldn't draw at all.
The best thing I can say is, let her see you struggle with something you care about. Talk about what it feels like for you when something doesn't go as planned. Talk about how you're a bit sad and disappointed you have to switch plans, and how it's okay to feel those things, and how you choose what to do instead. Let her see you (and your drawing/music/cooking/etc. skills) as less than perfect. If you can model it for her, she is more likely to pick it up.
The other thing could be to try a redirecting habit. Maybe make it a habit that if she tries 3 times and it's not working, she goes to drink a cup of milk. Every time. Or get a hug from you. Or talk to a doll about how frustrated she is. Or go for a walk.
When she's not in the middle of this kind of meltdown, you could talk to her about how practice works. Don't compare your beginning to someone else's end, practice means breaking things down into tiny steps and doing the parts you're bad at over and over until they're better (so finding out what you're bad at is an advantage, otherwise you'd just be repeating stuff that doesn't need to be repeated), enjoyment of the task itself matters too, everyone (even adults! even Leonardo da Vinci!) needs to practice, and you are likely to have good taste before you have good skill.
I would have really loved to hear something like "This mermaid is really important to you! It's okay to feel disappointed that you can't get it right now. Would you like a hug? Okay, and do you want to make a plan to practice this again tomorrow?"
posted by danceswithlight at 1:51 PM on February 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
The best thing I can say is, let her see you struggle with something you care about. Talk about what it feels like for you when something doesn't go as planned. Talk about how you're a bit sad and disappointed you have to switch plans, and how it's okay to feel those things, and how you choose what to do instead. Let her see you (and your drawing/music/cooking/etc. skills) as less than perfect. If you can model it for her, she is more likely to pick it up.
The other thing could be to try a redirecting habit. Maybe make it a habit that if she tries 3 times and it's not working, she goes to drink a cup of milk. Every time. Or get a hug from you. Or talk to a doll about how frustrated she is. Or go for a walk.
When she's not in the middle of this kind of meltdown, you could talk to her about how practice works. Don't compare your beginning to someone else's end, practice means breaking things down into tiny steps and doing the parts you're bad at over and over until they're better (so finding out what you're bad at is an advantage, otherwise you'd just be repeating stuff that doesn't need to be repeated), enjoyment of the task itself matters too, everyone (even adults! even Leonardo da Vinci!) needs to practice, and you are likely to have good taste before you have good skill.
I would have really loved to hear something like "This mermaid is really important to you! It's okay to feel disappointed that you can't get it right now. Would you like a hug? Okay, and do you want to make a plan to practice this again tomorrow?"
posted by danceswithlight at 1:51 PM on February 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I realised when a kid I was caring for was about 2, that they were an utter little perfectionist!
They reeeeaally didn't like getting anything 'wrong', or making mistakes, and when they were 1 they clearly didn't even like walking if there was a chance someone would see them fall, they'd 'practice' by themselves! They were sooo frustrated by any mistakes that they or anyone else made in a game.
It reminded me of the growth mindset theories, and how bad it is for gifted kids to be praised for being 'smart' because then they will try to avoid potentially failing, and won't stretch themselves, as failure would mean they were 'dumb', but if you praise *effort* then kids are more likely to try harder in response to challenges. I was definitely able to empathise with this in my own life.
So I started a campaign of brainwashing basically. Always praised effort.
It felt awkward at first but got more and more natural.
From 2-6 especially -
Repeatedly referenced and reminded them how they weren't always good at the things they are good at now - but they kept trying and practicing, and now they were so good!
From things like, how when they were little, they were no good at walking, and they kept trying, and now they were running.
To learning the alphabet, how they didn't know it but now they did, to how they'd progressed in the computer game they enjoyed playing.
I managed to convince them of things like, that they hadn't been able to get to the level they did now, so clearly they really had been improving! And pointing out little kids and how they had been like that, and look how they had practiced and improved!
Just over and over and over reinforcing that they used to not know how to do things, and they made more mistakes than they do now, but they kept trying at *thing* and now they could do it!
I really made a point of - now *only* when I was praising them for having now succeeded - pointing out how I'd noticed that early on they had been so frustrated by *a specific tiny mistake* when they were learning, and that I was *soooo* proud that they had kept trying, and look at them now! They practiced and now weren't making that mistake, and had done a really good job, and *would spend at least 5 times longer praising the specific things about their current work/skill*.
But it was really really important with this kid to remind them constantly, even slightly artificially (eg on things they didn't get *really* frustrated about!), that they had made mistakes in the past and it was fine, because they'd kept practicing and now they were much better.
And pointing out if other kids made mistakes, that they were still learning, and if they kept practicing, they'd get better, and that they could help their friend learn, if it was a game or something like that.
This kid is now a teenager, and... so far, it really looks like it has worked?
They are doing well in all their subjects, are very self motivated about homework, and have taught themselves several musical instruments - which is basically an excellent example of their underlying perfectionism kind of channeled into *practicing* if something isn't quite how they want, which is waaay more functional that the avoidant style perfectionism.
posted by Elysum at 2:14 PM on February 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
They reeeeaally didn't like getting anything 'wrong', or making mistakes, and when they were 1 they clearly didn't even like walking if there was a chance someone would see them fall, they'd 'practice' by themselves! They were sooo frustrated by any mistakes that they or anyone else made in a game.
It reminded me of the growth mindset theories, and how bad it is for gifted kids to be praised for being 'smart' because then they will try to avoid potentially failing, and won't stretch themselves, as failure would mean they were 'dumb', but if you praise *effort* then kids are more likely to try harder in response to challenges. I was definitely able to empathise with this in my own life.
So I started a campaign of brainwashing basically. Always praised effort.
It felt awkward at first but got more and more natural.
From 2-6 especially -
Repeatedly referenced and reminded them how they weren't always good at the things they are good at now - but they kept trying and practicing, and now they were so good!
From things like, how when they were little, they were no good at walking, and they kept trying, and now they were running.
To learning the alphabet, how they didn't know it but now they did, to how they'd progressed in the computer game they enjoyed playing.
I managed to convince them of things like, that they hadn't been able to get to the level they did now, so clearly they really had been improving! And pointing out little kids and how they had been like that, and look how they had practiced and improved!
Just over and over and over reinforcing that they used to not know how to do things, and they made more mistakes than they do now, but they kept trying at *thing* and now they could do it!
I really made a point of - now *only* when I was praising them for having now succeeded - pointing out how I'd noticed that early on they had been so frustrated by *a specific tiny mistake* when they were learning, and that I was *soooo* proud that they had kept trying, and look at them now! They practiced and now weren't making that mistake, and had done a really good job, and *would spend at least 5 times longer praising the specific things about their current work/skill*.
But it was really really important with this kid to remind them constantly, even slightly artificially (eg on things they didn't get *really* frustrated about!), that they had made mistakes in the past and it was fine, because they'd kept practicing and now they were much better.
And pointing out if other kids made mistakes, that they were still learning, and if they kept practicing, they'd get better, and that they could help their friend learn, if it was a game or something like that.
This kid is now a teenager, and... so far, it really looks like it has worked?
They are doing well in all their subjects, are very self motivated about homework, and have taught themselves several musical instruments - which is basically an excellent example of their underlying perfectionism kind of channeled into *practicing* if something isn't quite how they want, which is waaay more functional that the avoidant style perfectionism.
posted by Elysum at 2:14 PM on February 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Sometimes it takes just one experience to affect how a kid feels about themselves. Did somebody in a position of authority give overly critical feedback? If you can get her to talk about it, that might help.
Also, model not being goal-oriented. Instead of "let's draw a mermaid," frame it as "let's draw something and see how it goes, isn't that fun." Also, draw along with her, make obvious mistakes, goof off, and have fun. This goes for daily activities: if everything at home planned and purposeful, maybe dial that down and emphasize that the best thing to do is doing things together, whatever it is.
posted by dum spiro spero at 2:20 PM on February 27, 2023
Also, model not being goal-oriented. Instead of "let's draw a mermaid," frame it as "let's draw something and see how it goes, isn't that fun." Also, draw along with her, make obvious mistakes, goof off, and have fun. This goes for daily activities: if everything at home planned and purposeful, maybe dial that down and emphasize that the best thing to do is doing things together, whatever it is.
posted by dum spiro spero at 2:20 PM on February 27, 2023
We're dealing with this with our 5 year old now. Seconding everyone's suggestions of praising her effort and hard work, being really cheesy and talking through your own mistake and how you are going to try again. Another thing we do if our son's reaction is extreme is we calmly say "let's try that again" and talk him through how to explain his frustration without melting down and what he can do differently. So instead of instant meltdown, he'll say "ugh my mermaid is not coming out, I'm sad but it's okay, I'm going to take 3 breaths and try again. Maybe I can try drawing it this way next time or make something silly out of this one."
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 2:29 PM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 2:29 PM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
We have a similar issue with our 4 year old. We are doing the same things commenters mentioned including modeling behavior we would like to see in a very exaggerated fashion - making a big mistake and talking through what we do about it. In addition, we are reading books about overcoming obstacles. Some books to check out are:
- Beautiful Oops
- The Dot
- The Book of Mistakes
- The Little Engine That Could
- Giraffes Can't Dance
posted by ichimunki at 3:04 PM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
- Beautiful Oops
- The Dot
- The Book of Mistakes
- The Little Engine That Could
- Giraffes Can't Dance
posted by ichimunki at 3:04 PM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can really relate to your daughter's experience, except that you sound like a much more mature and understanding parent than I had; I received a lot of "tough love" and criticism about how I was lazy and a quitter that, I am sure you can imagine, did not help.
With a lot of therapy and reflection (and a diagnosis of ADHD in my 30s), I realized that what I needed most to prevent those meltdowns was two things: care/compassion, which you have already received a lot of good models for, but also explicit instruction and help.
I don't know if your child feels this way, but I was never able to understand why adults were so gassed up about "trying again." It always seemed to me that if I couldn't do something the first time, what would be the purpose in trying it again with no additional knowledge of how to do it better? In my mind, trying again meant I would keep doing the same thing over and over with the same outcome, and I used to be furious that adults wanted me to keep failing again and again with no hope for succeeding. It felt like punishment for the initial failure, and resulted in both a lot of meltdowns and a bad feedback loop. (Within this context, even being praised for my effort felt kind of sadistic, like, why do you enjoy seeing me struggle?)
It wasn't until I was much older that I realized "trying again" did not, in fact, mean that I was supposed to do the exact same thing again and again. Trying again usually means trying something different: using a different color or stroke in the drawing, using a different technique to figure out a word, kicking the ball at a slightly different angle than before, etc. Maybe most kids just intuit that, but when I was young I literally didn't know that was what people meant. (It wasn't what they said! They just said to do it again!) And even if I had known, my ADHD would have made it very difficult to break a task down into its component parts in order to think through what I could change, especially when I was already overwhelmed, emotional, and reactive.
It would have saved me so much childhood strain and shame if, instead of just being told to try again, someone had sat with me and talked me through ways I could vary my approach next time, or how I could figure out what new things to try myself. (Or, in the case of something like running, how repetition actually has an internal effect you can't see, that builds muscle and stamina over time.) I didn't need to learn to try, I needed to learn how to try.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 3:05 PM on February 27, 2023 [23 favorites]
With a lot of therapy and reflection (and a diagnosis of ADHD in my 30s), I realized that what I needed most to prevent those meltdowns was two things: care/compassion, which you have already received a lot of good models for, but also explicit instruction and help.
I don't know if your child feels this way, but I was never able to understand why adults were so gassed up about "trying again." It always seemed to me that if I couldn't do something the first time, what would be the purpose in trying it again with no additional knowledge of how to do it better? In my mind, trying again meant I would keep doing the same thing over and over with the same outcome, and I used to be furious that adults wanted me to keep failing again and again with no hope for succeeding. It felt like punishment for the initial failure, and resulted in both a lot of meltdowns and a bad feedback loop. (Within this context, even being praised for my effort felt kind of sadistic, like, why do you enjoy seeing me struggle?)
It wasn't until I was much older that I realized "trying again" did not, in fact, mean that I was supposed to do the exact same thing again and again. Trying again usually means trying something different: using a different color or stroke in the drawing, using a different technique to figure out a word, kicking the ball at a slightly different angle than before, etc. Maybe most kids just intuit that, but when I was young I literally didn't know that was what people meant. (It wasn't what they said! They just said to do it again!) And even if I had known, my ADHD would have made it very difficult to break a task down into its component parts in order to think through what I could change, especially when I was already overwhelmed, emotional, and reactive.
It would have saved me so much childhood strain and shame if, instead of just being told to try again, someone had sat with me and talked me through ways I could vary my approach next time, or how I could figure out what new things to try myself. (Or, in the case of something like running, how repetition actually has an internal effect you can't see, that builds muscle and stamina over time.) I didn't need to learn to try, I needed to learn how to try.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 3:05 PM on February 27, 2023 [23 favorites]
This is 100% my kid and at almost 8yo it is slowly getting better. I want to emphasize that you are playing the long game here. YEARS long. Her brain needs to grow still. I like what Elysum said a lot. I would just add that it helps to come from other people too not just parents, so coaches and music teachers are the village here. And when I saw him do something that he was proud of, give him a hug and say warmly: well done.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 3:37 PM on February 27, 2023
posted by St. Peepsburg at 3:37 PM on February 27, 2023
I have a 4.5 year old like this. One who refused to scribble at 2 because she thinks she. should just be able to draw like literal adults. My kiddo will try to get other people to do her work for her especially with coloring! She asks teachers, she asks us, she'll even ask other kids ! Everybody just redirects her back, and she does what she can do. We praise her a ton.
Like many of the above we talk about mistakes. We also circle things back around once calm, to encourage her to try again. We talk about what it means to learn something, as first you start without knowing.
We also have done some can we try for one more minute with a timer for kid activities to try and get her to re-engage and use some of those persistance skills.
We also tell stories to her about how we learned how to do things, because learning takes time. This is kind of abstract for four, but hopefully as she gets older it will stick.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:11 PM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like many of the above we talk about mistakes. We also circle things back around once calm, to encourage her to try again. We talk about what it means to learn something, as first you start without knowing.
We also have done some can we try for one more minute with a timer for kid activities to try and get her to re-engage and use some of those persistance skills.
We also tell stories to her about how we learned how to do things, because learning takes time. This is kind of abstract for four, but hopefully as she gets older it will stick.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:11 PM on February 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
My kiddo is only 3, but she also struggles with having a very clear idea of how she wants something to go, but not yet having the ability to make it happen just so, and then getting frustrated. In addition to praise for effort over results, modelling making mistakes myself, and reading books about it, I've also found that the TV show Bluey has been helpful.
Watching Bluey work through similar struggles seems to have given my kiddo a useful framework for helping herself. She will now quote lines or situations from relevant episodes when she's frustrated ("It's like Muffin's backpack!" or "It's like Bluey's Father's Day card!"), which also gives me a hint about why she's frustrated (she lacks the physical skill needed, or the drawing isn't what she wanted it to be) and something to latch onto to help her work through the problem ("If Muffin were here, what would you tell her to do? Can you try that?"). Mapping the problem onto a cartoon character also seems to help by giving her some emotional distance from whatever is bothering her, which I think makes it easier to regulate and problem solve.
The two episodes I've found most useful in this context are "Bike" (S1, e11) and "Perfect" (S3, e1). I'm sure there are more. We watch together and then talk about the episodes later, in the car or over dinner, and it's surprising how often they come up again.
posted by notquitejane at 6:43 AM on February 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Watching Bluey work through similar struggles seems to have given my kiddo a useful framework for helping herself. She will now quote lines or situations from relevant episodes when she's frustrated ("It's like Muffin's backpack!" or "It's like Bluey's Father's Day card!"), which also gives me a hint about why she's frustrated (she lacks the physical skill needed, or the drawing isn't what she wanted it to be) and something to latch onto to help her work through the problem ("If Muffin were here, what would you tell her to do? Can you try that?"). Mapping the problem onto a cartoon character also seems to help by giving her some emotional distance from whatever is bothering her, which I think makes it easier to regulate and problem solve.
The two episodes I've found most useful in this context are "Bike" (S1, e11) and "Perfect" (S3, e1). I'm sure there are more. We watch together and then talk about the episodes later, in the car or over dinner, and it's surprising how often they come up again.
posted by notquitejane at 6:43 AM on February 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
To clarify, I didn't go heavy on the pep talks about "trying again after making mistakes" while they *were* frustrated after making a mistake - I felt like they would have been, understandably, not in a great frame of mind to believe me?
Very sceptical, this toddler/kid/young person!
I actually started heavily on the things they were already good at/succeeding at.
So when they succeeded at something, I'd point out for a computer game how impressed I was that I had seen them struggling with a level at the beginning, and saw them keep trying, and they kept making less and less mistakes (jumping in the right place or whatever) , and now look at them, they were able to do that really fast, with no mistakes - they'd usually say it was easy now!
And I would point out that yeah, things are harder when we're new, but with practice, they become easy.
These are new concepts for little kids.
I picked things where it was irrefutably true that they had *already* got better, so that they actually believed me?
(Such a great kid, very sceptical! Had to carefully build my case!).
We really built on the concept that they had learned to make less mistakes over time, with practice.
See the things they *liked* to do meant that they naturally spent *more time* getting better at it - pointing out that that was true even for things they liked less, was something I built a case for, with evidence.
Once they believed me about things they really liked, we could then show that it was also true about things they were pretty neutral about, and then even things they didn't like.
They didn't get so worked up about mistakes, because we had a whole background of talking about how they'd made mistakes in things they liked, where they were less frustrated about it, and how they had just naturally practiced and stopped making those mistakes.
Kind of like desensitisation therapy? You don't start with things that freak people out, but with things they are feeling almost entirely comfortable with, because you are staying in a state of safety and comfort the whole time.
So starting with talking about mistakes where it hadn't bothered them, and they'd already overcome the mistake, just to get it really clear that the mistake hadn't stopped them from succeeding, and that that was objectively true.
When they were about 12, I even succeeded in convincing them that learning touch typing on a weekend would be worth it -
I just discussed whether they thought they'd use a keyboard a lot over the next, like, decade or two, and they thought about it and concluded it would be a loooot. Then we discussed that some people typed very slowly, and others very fast, and they were very impressed by some YouTubers and how very veeerrry fast they typed.
So we established that they definitely wanted to learn to type fast at some point by the time they were an adult.
And I pointed out that it might be a little frustrating at first to learn touch typing instead of looking at the keyboard and pecking, because it would be a little slower at first while their brain and fingers learned how to do this, but that then typing would get easier and much much faster - and that if they were going to learn it at some point in their life, it could be now if they wanted?
And we were at a relatives with a crap computer but a typing tutor game - they willingly spent a bunch of hours that weekend learning to touch type.
I did not blow my hard earned trust with them, because again, it was something where it was clear that this was true, and this was just built on the same kind of carefully building a case that I had been doing since they were a frustrated toddler.
posted by Elysum at 8:18 PM on March 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Very sceptical, this toddler/kid/young person!
I actually started heavily on the things they were already good at/succeeding at.
So when they succeeded at something, I'd point out for a computer game how impressed I was that I had seen them struggling with a level at the beginning, and saw them keep trying, and they kept making less and less mistakes (jumping in the right place or whatever) , and now look at them, they were able to do that really fast, with no mistakes - they'd usually say it was easy now!
And I would point out that yeah, things are harder when we're new, but with practice, they become easy.
These are new concepts for little kids.
I picked things where it was irrefutably true that they had *already* got better, so that they actually believed me?
(Such a great kid, very sceptical! Had to carefully build my case!).
We really built on the concept that they had learned to make less mistakes over time, with practice.
See the things they *liked* to do meant that they naturally spent *more time* getting better at it - pointing out that that was true even for things they liked less, was something I built a case for, with evidence.
Once they believed me about things they really liked, we could then show that it was also true about things they were pretty neutral about, and then even things they didn't like.
They didn't get so worked up about mistakes, because we had a whole background of talking about how they'd made mistakes in things they liked, where they were less frustrated about it, and how they had just naturally practiced and stopped making those mistakes.
Kind of like desensitisation therapy? You don't start with things that freak people out, but with things they are feeling almost entirely comfortable with, because you are staying in a state of safety and comfort the whole time.
So starting with talking about mistakes where it hadn't bothered them, and they'd already overcome the mistake, just to get it really clear that the mistake hadn't stopped them from succeeding, and that that was objectively true.
When they were about 12, I even succeeded in convincing them that learning touch typing on a weekend would be worth it -
I just discussed whether they thought they'd use a keyboard a lot over the next, like, decade or two, and they thought about it and concluded it would be a loooot. Then we discussed that some people typed very slowly, and others very fast, and they were very impressed by some YouTubers and how very veeerrry fast they typed.
So we established that they definitely wanted to learn to type fast at some point by the time they were an adult.
And I pointed out that it might be a little frustrating at first to learn touch typing instead of looking at the keyboard and pecking, because it would be a little slower at first while their brain and fingers learned how to do this, but that then typing would get easier and much much faster - and that if they were going to learn it at some point in their life, it could be now if they wanted?
And we were at a relatives with a crap computer but a typing tutor game - they willingly spent a bunch of hours that weekend learning to touch type.
I did not blow my hard earned trust with them, because again, it was something where it was clear that this was true, and this was just built on the same kind of carefully building a case that I had been doing since they were a frustrated toddler.
posted by Elysum at 8:18 PM on March 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: This has been very helpful!
I should have clarified in the original post that I had been rewarding effort as opposed to outcomes as I had read about this being an issue over time.
Some of the strategies that I've incorporated after reading this:
- I have been even more explicit about talking about complimenting on them after they recovered from mistakes (as opposed to just identifying effort). I've also been really clear about identifying places where she practices and doesn't realize it (swimming and dancing are the two big ones) as like touchstones for where she has struggled but overcome challenges.
- I hadn't realized the extent to which I wasn't modeling mistakes (or practice!) in my own life (this is sort of weird, because as a physician I help oversee training in medical students and residents where I do this exact thing all the time) and have definitely become more cognizant about being explicit about these things to both of my kids.
Thanks again everyone!
posted by ghostpony at 7:42 AM on March 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I should have clarified in the original post that I had been rewarding effort as opposed to outcomes as I had read about this being an issue over time.
Some of the strategies that I've incorporated after reading this:
- I have been even more explicit about talking about complimenting on them after they recovered from mistakes (as opposed to just identifying effort). I've also been really clear about identifying places where she practices and doesn't realize it (swimming and dancing are the two big ones) as like touchstones for where she has struggled but overcome challenges.
- I hadn't realized the extent to which I wasn't modeling mistakes (or practice!) in my own life (this is sort of weird, because as a physician I help oversee training in medical students and residents where I do this exact thing all the time) and have definitely become more cognizant about being explicit about these things to both of my kids.
Thanks again everyone!
posted by ghostpony at 7:42 AM on March 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by heatherlogan at 10:54 AM on February 27, 2023 [7 favorites]