Parents: how do you handle non-negotiable extracurriculars?
February 1, 2023 4:41 PM Subscribe
In general, our philosophy is "If you want to do x (e.g. soccer) that's great but you have to see the season through, you can't quit whenever you want." Or with music, it's "You can quit piano but only if you do a different instrument, we want you learning something musical." So there is wiggle room. But one of the few things we don't want to negotiate is tennis, because it's important to my SO and I and we really want them to get a foundation in that sport when they're young. Does anyone have strategies for how to approach it when they resist something that you don't want to budge on? Obviously there's bribing... what else?
I took piano. Parents said I had to take piano for seven years. I hated it. After my seven years were up I never touched it again. I love classical music and attend the symphony regularly. To this day the sound of a solo piano sets my teeth on edge.
I took dance, a few different kinds. Parents said I had to take ballet for five years. I hated it. After my five years were up I never touched it again. To this day I don't enjoy dancing.
I played sports. Parents said I had to letter in a varsity sport through high school or I "wouldn't get in to college." At my school, volleyball was the only sport where this was viable. They made me continue playing volleyball even after being diagnosed with a neurological condition that makes it dangerous for me to tilt my neck up. Neat.
I could continue here. My childhood was CRAMMED full of activities that I may have chosen at one point (as children do) and then realized were not for me (as children do) and then I was forced to continue them for completely arbitrary and stupid reasons until it became a battle of wills that I honestly think did permanent damage to the way that I'm able to engage with hobbies.
I don't talk to my parents.
posted by phunniemee at 4:52 PM on February 1, 2023 [207 favorites]
I took dance, a few different kinds. Parents said I had to take ballet for five years. I hated it. After my five years were up I never touched it again. To this day I don't enjoy dancing.
I played sports. Parents said I had to letter in a varsity sport through high school or I "wouldn't get in to college." At my school, volleyball was the only sport where this was viable. They made me continue playing volleyball even after being diagnosed with a neurological condition that makes it dangerous for me to tilt my neck up. Neat.
I could continue here. My childhood was CRAMMED full of activities that I may have chosen at one point (as children do) and then realized were not for me (as children do) and then I was forced to continue them for completely arbitrary and stupid reasons until it became a battle of wills that I honestly think did permanent damage to the way that I'm able to engage with hobbies.
I don't talk to my parents.
posted by phunniemee at 4:52 PM on February 1, 2023 [207 favorites]
So I guess as a constructive response to your question: WHY is tennis important to you, and can you articulate that to your child in a way that is reasonable?
As an example, my dad tried to get me into golf as a preteen. (Tennis too, actually.) The rationale was that girls who could golf could get scholarships to college easier. THAT spoke a language I understood. And then when I demonstrated zero aptitude or interest in golf, and it became obvious that no college would give me money to suck at golf for them, I was allowed to quit golf.
posted by phunniemee at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2023 [52 favorites]
As an example, my dad tried to get me into golf as a preteen. (Tennis too, actually.) The rationale was that girls who could golf could get scholarships to college easier. THAT spoke a language I understood. And then when I demonstrated zero aptitude or interest in golf, and it became obvious that no college would give me money to suck at golf for them, I was allowed to quit golf.
posted by phunniemee at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2023 [52 favorites]
I have a friend who is pretty good at piano after training for years at her parents behest up through the end of high school.
Not only does she not play piano, I don't think she's ever played for fun in the 25 years since, because whatever interest she had in it was lost among all the resentment their pushing engendered. And I don't think she's even really trying to teach anything musical to her young children either.
I also want my kid to learn music while young, but whenever I want to do anything more than suggest a few times in a row, I think about my friend, and her parents, and how they did it—exactly, tragically, and ironically—fucking wrong.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:58 PM on February 1, 2023 [25 favorites]
Not only does she not play piano, I don't think she's ever played for fun in the 25 years since, because whatever interest she had in it was lost among all the resentment their pushing engendered. And I don't think she's even really trying to teach anything musical to her young children either.
I also want my kid to learn music while young, but whenever I want to do anything more than suggest a few times in a row, I think about my friend, and her parents, and how they did it—exactly, tragically, and ironically—fucking wrong.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:58 PM on February 1, 2023 [25 favorites]
Yeah, seconding phunniemee that I'm not sure this is going to accomplish what you're hoping to accomplish. I was forced to attend classical music performances because my mom felt it was important, and to this day, you couldn't get me to attend one without the application of chloroform.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 4:59 PM on February 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 4:59 PM on February 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
The idea of forcing a child to participate in a purely recreational activity is grotesque. Our kids already have the majority of their day as non-negotiable time. Physical activity is important, but why force them to do something they don't enjoy, when there are a myriad of other physical activities that they may prefer? I can understand compelling a child to learn a language that is important to your culture, or even religious instruction if that's part of your heritage, but tennis? C'mon.
posted by sid at 5:00 PM on February 1, 2023 [87 favorites]
posted by sid at 5:00 PM on February 1, 2023 [87 favorites]
You say tennis is important to you, and I get it. But imagine your kid was no longer physically capable of playing. Would it just permanently damage your relationship with them? Or would you find some other important thing to share? I'm hoping it's the latter, and if you could do it in that scenario, you can do it in this one.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:00 PM on February 1, 2023 [33 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:00 PM on February 1, 2023 [33 favorites]
I am having my child learn to touch type right now because I think it will be good for him. He has basically agreed that he is not unwilling to learn it, and trusts that I am right when I say he will appreciate having done it. But he doesn't actually want to do it. So I just encourage him to do it in small increments, in a gamified way that is not unpleasant, and at a time when I am also working on something that isn't too fun, like folding laundry or paying bills. I think doing it together is good for the camaraderie and for showing that we all sometimes do things that we don't love because they will be useful later on.
posted by xo at 5:00 PM on February 1, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by xo at 5:00 PM on February 1, 2023 [29 favorites]
If tennis is something you and your SO enjoy and so it's something you think would be fun to do as a family, that's fine! That's one way to approach it -- it's just having a good time and so they don't need to be good at it. If it's something other than that ... well, I think you need to figure out why that is before you put that pressure on your children.
I took up a lot of things and dropped them for whatever reason. As did my brother. I am grateful my mom let me explore these things but never pressured me to continue if I didn't want to.
posted by edencosmic at 5:02 PM on February 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
I took up a lot of things and dropped them for whatever reason. As did my brother. I am grateful my mom let me explore these things but never pressured me to continue if I didn't want to.
posted by edencosmic at 5:02 PM on February 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
Why is tennis important to you? Does a big part of your social lives revolve around it and you want to be able to play tennis with your kids? Is it vital that they be good at tennis, or can they just know enough to enjoy it?
I think your best bet is finding ways to make it be a fun and, ideally, low-pressure thing for them. Do you know any other kids who play tennis, or have some local courts where kids play non-competitively? Can you play with them for fun? Make it be a fun family activity?
If you're trying to force them to be serious about it, that's very likely to backfire in the ways described above. Let them learn the basics such that they can participate in it as a social activity, and if they feel competitive on their own, then great. If not, let them be! And if they turn out to be miserable doing it... then for everyone's sake, do not make this random hobby non-negotiable.
If, as phunniemee says, there's some particular reasoning that you can share with them that will actually make sense to them, that can also help. But if it's just something like "we personally like tennis more than soccer, so we care about you playing tennis and not soccer", then that's likely to not sound very reasonable to them.
posted by trig at 5:05 PM on February 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think your best bet is finding ways to make it be a fun and, ideally, low-pressure thing for them. Do you know any other kids who play tennis, or have some local courts where kids play non-competitively? Can you play with them for fun? Make it be a fun family activity?
If you're trying to force them to be serious about it, that's very likely to backfire in the ways described above. Let them learn the basics such that they can participate in it as a social activity, and if they feel competitive on their own, then great. If not, let them be! And if they turn out to be miserable doing it... then for everyone's sake, do not make this random hobby non-negotiable.
If, as phunniemee says, there's some particular reasoning that you can share with them that will actually make sense to them, that can also help. But if it's just something like "we personally like tennis more than soccer, so we care about you playing tennis and not soccer", then that's likely to not sound very reasonable to them.
posted by trig at 5:05 PM on February 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the constructive replies everyone. Just FYI this is not about scholarships or anything, it's about having them participate in something we do as a family. We don't care if they never join a tennis team in their lives.
posted by malhouse at 5:10 PM on February 1, 2023
posted by malhouse at 5:10 PM on February 1, 2023
Ironically, the way to foster genuine interest in something is to do the exact opposite of what you're doing here--do not force involvement in it. Making your kids play tennis will turn it into work and deplete any of the joy from it. Don't make them play it. Don't make them participate as an extracurricular. Instead, openly and honestly model your love for the sport, and invite--but do not force--your children to join you in it. If it becomes a source of joy they will love it forever. But it will only be a source of joy if they're allowed to approach it with curiosity, on their terms. I would also urge you to take genuine interest in what they love, if you are not already, even if it is the opposite of what you care about.. Modeling what open curiosity looks like will show your kids how to approach this sport you love with an open mind. Good luck!
posted by Amy93 at 5:13 PM on February 1, 2023 [83 favorites]
posted by Amy93 at 5:13 PM on February 1, 2023 [83 favorites]
If it was in our house, we would back off and just make tennis be a part of vacation and some Saturdays "activities." This is where each person in the group gets to pick something that we all have to do together (so you or your SO could pick tennis and your kid (s) could pick whatever they wanted). That is how my kids have learned to ice skate - their dad keeps picking skating. It is almost a joke now but the kids are in on the joke and their dad has learned to spend that time with them going over some basics, making up games, and then letting them flail around.
But to add something else that is a little rough but maybe ... there are a lot of non-negotiables you talk about (some music, finishing seasons in sports, and, you don't mention this but, school) and you may have found the end of your kids tolerance. You can only play the same ("have to") card so many times before it does not work anymore.
posted by mutt.cyberspace at 5:19 PM on February 1, 2023 [39 favorites]
But to add something else that is a little rough but maybe ... there are a lot of non-negotiables you talk about (some music, finishing seasons in sports, and, you don't mention this but, school) and you may have found the end of your kids tolerance. You can only play the same ("have to") card so many times before it does not work anymore.
posted by mutt.cyberspace at 5:19 PM on February 1, 2023 [39 favorites]
Are you my cousin-in-law? Because he was very very adamant that his children (2 girls, one teen and one pre-teen, but this was especially applied towards the teen) continue to pursue tennis to an almost pro level, even when the teen emphatically said that she wasn't enjoying it anymore. It seemed to me like he was trying to live vicariously through his kid, but didn't consider at all what his kid wanted to do. And it's not like she was short on activities! She just seemed super burnt out.
Maybe lay off the tennis for now? It's not like they can never revisit it in the future.
posted by creatrixtiara at 5:25 PM on February 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Maybe lay off the tennis for now? It's not like they can never revisit it in the future.
posted by creatrixtiara at 5:25 PM on February 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Ask them how much they want to be paid to play tennis with you. Stipulate that they aren't allowed to complain about playing, and they have to really try. Then decide whether it's worth it to you to pay that much. That's the respectful way to get your kid to do something optional like this that they don't want to do.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:26 PM on February 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:26 PM on February 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
We do non-negotiables as a sold front as a team. You must to them. There is no other way. Non-negotiables are taking meds, eating, and going to school (most days.) He understands why, because these things are necessary for a good and healthy life. Pretty much everything else is negotiable.
I don’t know why kiddo has to do what you demand in this case. Why don’t you do the family activities the kid wants? Tennis isn’t meds and food, it’s an arbitrary thing you picked. If it’s just about doing something as a family, pick something your kid’s actually interested in.
posted by Ookseer at 5:28 PM on February 1, 2023 [31 favorites]
I don’t know why kiddo has to do what you demand in this case. Why don’t you do the family activities the kid wants? Tennis isn’t meds and food, it’s an arbitrary thing you picked. If it’s just about doing something as a family, pick something your kid’s actually interested in.
posted by Ookseer at 5:28 PM on February 1, 2023 [31 favorites]
I told my son piano was non-negotiable. He hated it. My rationale was that he hated math too, but no one was suggesting I let him quit math. I felt that music was as important as math, and that if he learned piano, he would have the basics for any instrument he wanted to play later. I think the idea of what is considered an optional activity is completely arbitrary. If their gym class had a tennis unit, your child would have to play tennis and no one would say they should be able to get out of it.
When my son was old enough, he quit piano for a while. He played guitar. He played drums. He went back to piano and got really good at it. At one point, he called me and literally said, "I want to thank you for forcing me to take piano lessons against my will." My point is that the nature of this question means you are going to hear from a lot of people with bad experiences with being forced to do something, but it doesn't always work out badly. There are also a lot of people who are sorry their parents let them quit something - I am sorry my parents let me quit piano.
I would suggest coming up with a minimum required involvement - maybe playing once a week for an hour. You aren't trying to force him to be a tennis pro. You want him to have the competence to be able to enjoy playing later. It's not unreasonable to just say, as I'm sure you do with other things, this is just something you have to do.
posted by FencingGal at 5:29 PM on February 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
When my son was old enough, he quit piano for a while. He played guitar. He played drums. He went back to piano and got really good at it. At one point, he called me and literally said, "I want to thank you for forcing me to take piano lessons against my will." My point is that the nature of this question means you are going to hear from a lot of people with bad experiences with being forced to do something, but it doesn't always work out badly. There are also a lot of people who are sorry their parents let them quit something - I am sorry my parents let me quit piano.
I would suggest coming up with a minimum required involvement - maybe playing once a week for an hour. You aren't trying to force him to be a tennis pro. You want him to have the competence to be able to enjoy playing later. It's not unreasonable to just say, as I'm sure you do with other things, this is just something you have to do.
posted by FencingGal at 5:29 PM on February 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Is there any reason they can't get a foundation in the sport by playing with the family? Maybe some light instruction that the family does together before a day at the courts?
I'll say that if there's any resentment they have about taking lessons that will absolutely translate to family tennis time as well, which will majorly backfire for you and your SO.
Also yes to the question about age. Very important!
posted by wemayfreeze at 5:29 PM on February 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
I'll say that if there's any resentment they have about taking lessons that will absolutely translate to family tennis time as well, which will majorly backfire for you and your SO.
Also yes to the question about age. Very important!
posted by wemayfreeze at 5:29 PM on February 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
I want to thank phunniemee for saying what I was tempted to say with a lot more rudeness and profanity.
I really feel deeply for these unfortunate children.
posted by ivanthenotsoterrible at 5:30 PM on February 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
I really feel deeply for these unfortunate children.
posted by ivanthenotsoterrible at 5:30 PM on February 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
If you're talking to my kid, who has a well of stubbornness a mile deep and only 1-2 types of punishment she would care about it, you don't waste your ammo on something like this.
Could you instead pick a range of activities you could do as a family and either rotate them or let the kids vote? Almost all kids do better when they get some kind of choice. If there's something important about tennis-like activities, what about adding in pickleball or pingpong or badminton options?
posted by emjaybee at 5:36 PM on February 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Could you instead pick a range of activities you could do as a family and either rotate them or let the kids vote? Almost all kids do better when they get some kind of choice. If there's something important about tennis-like activities, what about adding in pickleball or pingpong or badminton options?
posted by emjaybee at 5:36 PM on February 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
I think we really need some more information about the kid in question- age, temperament, do they like sports? Is this something that could be considered fun for them?
Like, i could see an athletic kid enjoying playing a sport with their parents, even if its not their favorite sport, because its at least in the ballpark of things they enjoy (sports). A couple lessons with a pro could help, and take away the parent is teaching you (potentially getting frustrated with you) aspect.
I was a book kid. I am an adult who loves to work out, who did crew in high school, has run marathons, and describe myself as a "non ball sport" person. Forced playing tennis is my personal hell and the idea of this being "fun family time" gives me anxiety and Im a fully formed adult.
Which kid do you have?
posted by zara at 5:38 PM on February 1, 2023 [21 favorites]
Like, i could see an athletic kid enjoying playing a sport with their parents, even if its not their favorite sport, because its at least in the ballpark of things they enjoy (sports). A couple lessons with a pro could help, and take away the parent is teaching you (potentially getting frustrated with you) aspect.
I was a book kid. I am an adult who loves to work out, who did crew in high school, has run marathons, and describe myself as a "non ball sport" person. Forced playing tennis is my personal hell and the idea of this being "fun family time" gives me anxiety and Im a fully formed adult.
Which kid do you have?
posted by zara at 5:38 PM on February 1, 2023 [21 favorites]
Forcing your kids to do an activity so you can "enjoy" it as a family is really so that the parents can enjoy it. And requiring tennis and an instrument keeps kids pretty busy and doesn't give a lot of space for other activities. What if they want to engage in a visual art? What if they really love team sports on a field?
If these are required "extracurriculars," then they aren't really extracurricular, but an extension of their school day, where other people are deciding what they do and they have no control. Worse, they are probably supposed to pretend to enjoy it?
I played tennis as a kid with my dad, and I started taking lessons when I asked.
Here's a suggestion: you demand your kid play tennis, but then let them choose an activity that they love that both parents also have to do. So then you each spend three or four hours a week learning Pokemon or watching the anime of their choice or examining insects. If you won't do that, stop making them play (play! play is supposed to be fun!) a sport you have chosen.
Kids have so little control and autonomy. Letting them figure out what they like and want to pursue is healthy for them and you.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:44 PM on February 1, 2023 [43 favorites]
If these are required "extracurriculars," then they aren't really extracurricular, but an extension of their school day, where other people are deciding what they do and they have no control. Worse, they are probably supposed to pretend to enjoy it?
I played tennis as a kid with my dad, and I started taking lessons when I asked.
Here's a suggestion: you demand your kid play tennis, but then let them choose an activity that they love that both parents also have to do. So then you each spend three or four hours a week learning Pokemon or watching the anime of their choice or examining insects. If you won't do that, stop making them play (play! play is supposed to be fun!) a sport you have chosen.
Kids have so little control and autonomy. Letting them figure out what they like and want to pursue is healthy for them and you.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:44 PM on February 1, 2023 [43 favorites]
I think like phunniemee, if you force the kid to play tennis when they don't want to, they will hate every minute of it and quit doing it the second they can and never do it again. Tennis isn't typing or math, you don't HAVE to do it in order to live, and I'm sure your kid knows that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:44 PM on February 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:44 PM on February 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
If it's truly about a family activity ... don't keep score and just make it fun. And if one kid isn't into it, maybe do the sort of thing where they have to play a bit but then if they want to sit out while the rest of the family plays, that's perfectly OK. My mom and my brother were (and are!) way more athletic than I was and so maybe we'd all toss the frisbee around for a bit but then if I wanted to sit and read and just enjoy being outside while they played, that was good too! We were still doing a family thing, but it was just what each of us enjoyed.
Are there other physical things your kids like to do that you may not love? I could see a reasonable trade of "we'll play one game of tennis and then we'll do this other thing you like." So like, maybe you're bad at basketball but your kid enjoys it. Then it's just about having fun doing a physical activity without pressure.
posted by edencosmic at 5:45 PM on February 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Are there other physical things your kids like to do that you may not love? I could see a reasonable trade of "we'll play one game of tennis and then we'll do this other thing you like." So like, maybe you're bad at basketball but your kid enjoys it. Then it's just about having fun doing a physical activity without pressure.
posted by edencosmic at 5:45 PM on February 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
To answer your question, when it comes to extrinsic motivation, the other lever you have other than bribing is consequences. Sometimes it’s natural consequences, other times it’s artificial consequences. The first is much more appealing but if your kid has only very limited “currency,” your options that they care about are limited.
Let’s say it’s screen time. You could sweeten the pot with extra screen time after tennis — or you could take away screen time if the kid doesn’t practice.
If I could solve for intrinsic motivation, my life would be easier, but it’s too intrinsic.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 5:46 PM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Let’s say it’s screen time. You could sweeten the pot with extra screen time after tennis — or you could take away screen time if the kid doesn’t practice.
If I could solve for intrinsic motivation, my life would be easier, but it’s too intrinsic.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 5:46 PM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
There should NEVER be non-negotiable extracurriculars. I don’t understand why you would want to force your kids to do something they don’t enjoy which isn’t a necessary skill?
posted by Samarium at 5:49 PM on February 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by Samarium at 5:49 PM on February 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
Yes, it's possible that years later your child will look back and thank you for making them learn piano/tennis/whatever.
It's also possible that they will be grateful, then as the years go on they seem to avoid calling or visiting you. Maybe they can articulate the sadness that balls up at the memory of childhood, of being treated not like a person with thoughts and feelings, but rather some material to be moulded and sculpted. Or maybe not.
It's a chance you take.
posted by dum spiro spero at 5:59 PM on February 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
It's also possible that they will be grateful, then as the years go on they seem to avoid calling or visiting you. Maybe they can articulate the sadness that balls up at the memory of childhood, of being treated not like a person with thoughts and feelings, but rather some material to be moulded and sculpted. Or maybe not.
It's a chance you take.
posted by dum spiro spero at 5:59 PM on February 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
I think you can force your kid to go with you on designated Family Tennis Time, until they are old enough you can't force them to go. You can't force them to play, to enjoy it, to get better at it.
You'd be better off trying to appeal to them rather than strongarming. But at least be honest with yourself that tennis is not a family bonding activity - you get more bonding in the car on the way there and back. This is a weird non-negotiable, and kind of a dangerous one because it's such an insular form of team play that not being interested in tennis (or having it be actively uncomfortable in a way that kids can't articulate) or in Being A Tennis Family puts a kid in the position of family outcast. Are y'all really going to like your kid less if they don't want to share this interest with you? And if the answer is no, how do you intend to show them that but also force them to do it anyway?
The unconditional acceptance part of parenting is on the parents, not the kids. For every "I'm so glad you forced me to do that thing that it turns out I like" there's probably more like ten "my parents cared more about who they wanted me to be than who I was" (and maybe one extra "I'm so grateful my parents made it possible to pursue - and continue to love - my big interest, to the point of serious sacrifice").
Some kind of middle ground would be "you have to come with us, but if you don't want to play you can read a book or ride your bike nearby" (or whatever), because that leaves room for them to choose to join in. But even that should leave room and acceptance that they may end up with some other thing they want to do in the same timeslot as Family Tennis Time and you will have to hope at that point you haven't made your kid feel like they can't ask to do it for fear of being thrown out of the family. Which is a thing kids fear. One thing that most kids are pretty fragile on is about whether they are considered "okay" by the people around them. Whatever it is you decide to do here, it shouldn't turn your kid into an enemy or outcast, or one who fears that your love is conditional on...playing tennis.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:05 PM on February 1, 2023 [24 favorites]
You'd be better off trying to appeal to them rather than strongarming. But at least be honest with yourself that tennis is not a family bonding activity - you get more bonding in the car on the way there and back. This is a weird non-negotiable, and kind of a dangerous one because it's such an insular form of team play that not being interested in tennis (or having it be actively uncomfortable in a way that kids can't articulate) or in Being A Tennis Family puts a kid in the position of family outcast. Are y'all really going to like your kid less if they don't want to share this interest with you? And if the answer is no, how do you intend to show them that but also force them to do it anyway?
The unconditional acceptance part of parenting is on the parents, not the kids. For every "I'm so glad you forced me to do that thing that it turns out I like" there's probably more like ten "my parents cared more about who they wanted me to be than who I was" (and maybe one extra "I'm so grateful my parents made it possible to pursue - and continue to love - my big interest, to the point of serious sacrifice").
Some kind of middle ground would be "you have to come with us, but if you don't want to play you can read a book or ride your bike nearby" (or whatever), because that leaves room for them to choose to join in. But even that should leave room and acceptance that they may end up with some other thing they want to do in the same timeslot as Family Tennis Time and you will have to hope at that point you haven't made your kid feel like they can't ask to do it for fear of being thrown out of the family. Which is a thing kids fear. One thing that most kids are pretty fragile on is about whether they are considered "okay" by the people around them. Whatever it is you decide to do here, it shouldn't turn your kid into an enemy or outcast, or one who fears that your love is conditional on...playing tennis.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:05 PM on February 1, 2023 [24 favorites]
Are the kids old enough for a real discussion about why this is so important to you, and if they don't like it, what it is about it that they don't like? Are you prepared to have that conversation reasonably without making them feel badly for not enjoying tennis just because you do?
If so, I'd start there. Try to understand what isn't working for them and think about other ways to incorporate tennis in some way that doesn't hit those specific buttons. Maybe they'd like it as a very occasional family activity, or to do it with kids their own age and not you, or they really don't like playing it at all but would cheerfully attend games with you as a spectator.
I really encourage you to think hard about finding *some* room for negotiation here, if you want to leave your kids with any warm feelings at all for the sport and the meaning it seems to have for you and your partner.
posted by Stacey at 6:05 PM on February 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
If so, I'd start there. Try to understand what isn't working for them and think about other ways to incorporate tennis in some way that doesn't hit those specific buttons. Maybe they'd like it as a very occasional family activity, or to do it with kids their own age and not you, or they really don't like playing it at all but would cheerfully attend games with you as a spectator.
I really encourage you to think hard about finding *some* room for negotiation here, if you want to leave your kids with any warm feelings at all for the sport and the meaning it seems to have for you and your partner.
posted by Stacey at 6:05 PM on February 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
when they resist something that you don't want to budge on?
Maybe you can elaborate on what you're saying and doing, and what they're saying and doing. Have all the children taken the same position and approach to this? The details may help you get more specific answers about what you're doing wrong.
Just a data point, my son found his own sports, is fanatical about them, and I can't do those sports with him. Whatever, I spectate, and we enjoy other things in common.
posted by JimN2TAW at 6:06 PM on February 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe you can elaborate on what you're saying and doing, and what they're saying and doing. Have all the children taken the same position and approach to this? The details may help you get more specific answers about what you're doing wrong.
Just a data point, my son found his own sports, is fanatical about them, and I can't do those sports with him. Whatever, I spectate, and we enjoy other things in common.
posted by JimN2TAW at 6:06 PM on February 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
How do I handle non-negotiable extracurriculars? I don’t. My kids are still young but I’ve already learned that it’s very difficult to force them to do something they don’t want to do so I only force them to do things that are very important like taking medicine and not playing in the street. The idea that they would learn to like doing things I force them to do seems extremely slim so if you want them to eventually like playing tennis, this doesn’t seem like a good strategy.
I get wanting to have activities you do as a family. I would love it if my kids were interested in running, hiking and biking. But I love them for who they are, not for who I want them to be, and we can’t find out what they like to do if they’re forced to do things they don’t want to do. Good luck.
posted by kat518 at 6:14 PM on February 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
I get wanting to have activities you do as a family. I would love it if my kids were interested in running, hiking and biking. But I love them for who they are, not for who I want them to be, and we can’t find out what they like to do if they’re forced to do things they don’t want to do. Good luck.
posted by kat518 at 6:14 PM on February 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
I have one child, who is currently 6. So, maybe he's younger than your kids, but I have found that there tends to be a lot of willingness to do things when it's a single parent doing something where the child is getting focused attention. So in your situation, I would maybe not focus on tennis lessons, but instead going with a kid one-on-one for a special outing of playing tennis together and then maybe getting a treat or having a special snack and having time to have conversation. So tennis because part of a nice experience together. Then you can build on this and suggest that more fun could be had if their tennis skills improved, with some tennis lessons.
I think in our family, the thing analogous to tennis, is biking. My partner and I both bike a lot both for transportation and for recreation. When our child was small, we offered the opportunity to do cycling often, and when he said it was done with his balance bike or whatever, we said okay, no problem. He saw both of us cycling frequently. Then we starting going to near by places by bike that were fun for him or my partner would take him for short rides on local trails, but always with a nice snack and maybe they would go to a playground. Now my kid is going to the indoor bike park and riding up ramps and he's able to bike far enough to accompany on any errand in the neighbourhood. I think trying to built positive associations and not putting too much pressure on the skill is a good way to handle the situation.
posted by ice-cream forever at 6:14 PM on February 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
I think in our family, the thing analogous to tennis, is biking. My partner and I both bike a lot both for transportation and for recreation. When our child was small, we offered the opportunity to do cycling often, and when he said it was done with his balance bike or whatever, we said okay, no problem. He saw both of us cycling frequently. Then we starting going to near by places by bike that were fun for him or my partner would take him for short rides on local trails, but always with a nice snack and maybe they would go to a playground. Now my kid is going to the indoor bike park and riding up ramps and he's able to bike far enough to accompany on any errand in the neighbourhood. I think trying to built positive associations and not putting too much pressure on the skill is a good way to handle the situation.
posted by ice-cream forever at 6:14 PM on February 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
Honestly, the one way to make sure your children will *NOT* share your love of tennis is to make it mandatory. Instead, can you as a family weave it into your together time? Take them out on Saturday mornings to hit a bucket of balls (for fun! with no expectations!) and then get lunch where they get to tell you about their favorite movie/Pokemon/whatever.
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 6:17 PM on February 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 6:17 PM on February 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
A lot depends on what it is about tennis that's a problem for them. Are you attempting to teach them tennis? Being coached by a parent can be a particular form of torture. Maybe there is something specific you can do, like let them try a few group lessons without you being present. Whatever it is, I think you need to ask them, and listen, and be flexible-- right up to the point of not requiring them to do the sport at all.
posted by BibiRose at 6:20 PM on February 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 6:20 PM on February 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
How much do you want to fight? Do your kids like tennis at least a little?
When I was young I had non-negotiable swimming lessons (every week for years year round; I was actually a good swimmer but I still had to go to the same class over and over) and piano lessons, every week for years.
I loved to swim. Even though I didn't like the classes and was bullied a lot every time, I enjoyed being in the water enough that it was okay, and of course I loved to swim outside the classes. We didn't really fight at home about swim class even though I had some pretty bad experiences there. (Like, objectively bad - stuff that I'm a bit shocked was allowed to happen to me.)
I hated piano and was bad at it. I fought it all the time, and I was in general a pretty tractable kid who was never in trouble and never had late homework. My parents used guilt and yelling, mostly, which "worked" because, as I say, I was a tractable kid. When I was allowed to quit lessons I never played again.
My parents made my brother and me go hiking with them, although to be fair this was much more because we were too young to stay home alone. We were generally not fun hiking companions. Mostly I think it was a drag for my parents to have to haul two whiny, unhappy kids along on an activity that they both really enjoyed. We were all a lot happier when I was old enough to watch my brother and we could just stay home. I am not totally averse to a walk in the woods if it's fall or winter so it isn't muddy or buggy, but that's about it.
You know what actually worked well for us bonding as a family? We all like to read, so we've all read and discussed many of the same books. That was what made us close. We also had some wonderful road trips together, but usually it was either a trip somewhere my parents liked (the Smoky Mountains - borrrrrrrrrring!!!!) or somewhere they put up with because the kids would like it (waterparks!!!! the best!!!!). We had a good time because we were together and even a no-fun destination would be seeded with little fun stuff (bookstores, often).
My point being that if your kids like tennis at least okay, then family tennis time is probably good and some lessons are probably okay even if the actual going to the lessons is not the kids' favorite - but not every week all year round, though, give them some time off.
But if your kids really don't like tennis, it's not going to be the family bonding Tennis Family thing you hope it will be. If your kids have played tennis for six months or so and really, actively don't like it, that probably won't change in time to be a Tennis Family.
posted by Frowner at 6:20 PM on February 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
When I was young I had non-negotiable swimming lessons (every week for years year round; I was actually a good swimmer but I still had to go to the same class over and over) and piano lessons, every week for years.
I loved to swim. Even though I didn't like the classes and was bullied a lot every time, I enjoyed being in the water enough that it was okay, and of course I loved to swim outside the classes. We didn't really fight at home about swim class even though I had some pretty bad experiences there. (Like, objectively bad - stuff that I'm a bit shocked was allowed to happen to me.)
I hated piano and was bad at it. I fought it all the time, and I was in general a pretty tractable kid who was never in trouble and never had late homework. My parents used guilt and yelling, mostly, which "worked" because, as I say, I was a tractable kid. When I was allowed to quit lessons I never played again.
My parents made my brother and me go hiking with them, although to be fair this was much more because we were too young to stay home alone. We were generally not fun hiking companions. Mostly I think it was a drag for my parents to have to haul two whiny, unhappy kids along on an activity that they both really enjoyed. We were all a lot happier when I was old enough to watch my brother and we could just stay home. I am not totally averse to a walk in the woods if it's fall or winter so it isn't muddy or buggy, but that's about it.
You know what actually worked well for us bonding as a family? We all like to read, so we've all read and discussed many of the same books. That was what made us close. We also had some wonderful road trips together, but usually it was either a trip somewhere my parents liked (the Smoky Mountains - borrrrrrrrrring!!!!) or somewhere they put up with because the kids would like it (waterparks!!!! the best!!!!). We had a good time because we were together and even a no-fun destination would be seeded with little fun stuff (bookstores, often).
My point being that if your kids like tennis at least okay, then family tennis time is probably good and some lessons are probably okay even if the actual going to the lessons is not the kids' favorite - but not every week all year round, though, give them some time off.
But if your kids really don't like tennis, it's not going to be the family bonding Tennis Family thing you hope it will be. If your kids have played tennis for six months or so and really, actively don't like it, that probably won't change in time to be a Tennis Family.
posted by Frowner at 6:20 PM on February 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
You have to make it so it’s easier for them to engage in the activity than to refuse it. I was a depressed, cynical kid with horrific coordination and no physical aptitudes, but because we had a basketball hoop in our driveway I could make a basket fairly reliably by highschool and knew how to dribble and pass okay and all that. I didn’t often spend time outside but my dad would play horse with me sometimes, we’d take breaks from gardening (which I always was pretty interested in) and mess around with the basketball, when I was an especially angsty tween I used to blast bad music on a boombox in the garage and fidget by practicing free throws… All that said if I had been pushed by my dad to join even an intramural super casual team or like just go to a community center for a pickup game I would have balked and fought and vehemently refused.
So, for your situation, I would suggest making tennis as accessible as possible. Can you have a court in your yard if you have a yard? Keep racquets and such ready to go at any time, don’t be precious about any of it and let the kids mess around. Model good behavior about not being too competitive and being generous about scoring and rules adjustments. Make it feel like there isn’t a standard of perfection that should be reached but instead that it’s a skill to become comfortable with so you can do a fun activity, like paddling a canoe or bowling.
posted by Mizu at 6:21 PM on February 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
So, for your situation, I would suggest making tennis as accessible as possible. Can you have a court in your yard if you have a yard? Keep racquets and such ready to go at any time, don’t be precious about any of it and let the kids mess around. Model good behavior about not being too competitive and being generous about scoring and rules adjustments. Make it feel like there isn’t a standard of perfection that should be reached but instead that it’s a skill to become comfortable with so you can do a fun activity, like paddling a canoe or bowling.
posted by Mizu at 6:21 PM on February 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I could list a bunch of educational psychological studies by reputable university researchers that explain how deeply your entire ask presents a parenting philosophy that is damaging to your kids mental and physical health and childhood development, but that would probably go against Ask Metafilter policy, so I will refrain.
posted by yueliang at 6:22 PM on February 1, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 6:22 PM on February 1, 2023 [23 favorites]
I am so thankful that my father did two things (among others) for me growing up. One was that he always invited me to do stuff he was doing, whether it was building radios, collecting cacti, installing an electrical panel, typing his dissertation or coding. His excitement and interest and skill were real, and being invited into an "adult" task or hobby was a treat I cherished. He didn't dumb anything down, he let me help, observe, and pick knowledge up almost by osmosis.
The other thing he did was express interest in things we kids liked doing, like photography, reading Sherlock Holmes, kayaking, cycling, or soccer. He genuinely enjoyed being in our "realm," he wasn't insecure about asking newbie questions, and would basically assume we were the experts compared to him. He talks to this day (he's 80) about how much he appreciates the many things he got to learn about just by being open to what we were interested in.
If you can express your genuine love and enthusiasm for something, and then invite your kid into that world, it's great. (YMMV. Excess boredom may facilitate this process. May not work for kids over a certain age or of a certain temperament.)
posted by cocoagirl at 6:23 PM on February 1, 2023 [50 favorites]
The other thing he did was express interest in things we kids liked doing, like photography, reading Sherlock Holmes, kayaking, cycling, or soccer. He genuinely enjoyed being in our "realm," he wasn't insecure about asking newbie questions, and would basically assume we were the experts compared to him. He talks to this day (he's 80) about how much he appreciates the many things he got to learn about just by being open to what we were interested in.
If you can express your genuine love and enthusiasm for something, and then invite your kid into that world, it's great. (YMMV. Excess boredom may facilitate this process. May not work for kids over a certain age or of a certain temperament.)
posted by cocoagirl at 6:23 PM on February 1, 2023 [50 favorites]
Hi, I was your child, only with dance instead of tennis. I was essentially bribed with costume jewelry from Hecht's, new pair of earrings once a week for ten years. I had zero talent, aptitude, or interest, but my mom had wanted to take dance classes when she was young but her folks couldn't afford it, so she was determined to give me this thing even though I repeatedly expressed how much I hated it. She would drop me off at class, go to the mall, and buy cheap earrings that she could give me on the car ride home.
Was it deeply psychologically damaging? No.
Would I have preferred my parents to acknowledge my preferences over their own? Yes
But I have an amaaaaaazing earring collection now. So my only advice, if you insist on tennis lessons, is to find a bribe that your kid can carry forward for the next eleventy-mumble years.
posted by basalganglia at 6:28 PM on February 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
Was it deeply psychologically damaging? No.
Would I have preferred my parents to acknowledge my preferences over their own? Yes
But I have an amaaaaaazing earring collection now. So my only advice, if you insist on tennis lessons, is to find a bribe that your kid can carry forward for the next eleventy-mumble years.
posted by basalganglia at 6:28 PM on February 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
I agree 100% that you shouldn't force it, the kid will just hate it. It doesn't even make sense to force it on the grounds of being a shared family activity. Would you really be able to enjoy family tennis yourself if your kid obviously hates it? Surely some family activity can be found that everyone enjoys.
That being said, one concrete suggestion that hasn't been mentioned yet: try a different teacher.
I took piano lessons for a few years as a kid--initially I liked it, eventually I grew to hate it, and I'm very glad my parents let me quit when I did. But what I was too young to figure out back then was that I really just hated that particular style of piano education. I had no interest in pushing my physical technique any further, I hated the classical music I was given, I hated playing from a score. What I needed was ear training, music theory, pop music that I was actually listening to, improvisation even. If I'd had a different teacher who worked on those things instead, I would've loved it. But I couldn't express that, I just thought I had come to hate piano.
So it could be worth trying a different instructor with a different style. But again, if the kid still hates it, then for god's sake drop it!
posted by equalpants at 6:29 PM on February 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
That being said, one concrete suggestion that hasn't been mentioned yet: try a different teacher.
I took piano lessons for a few years as a kid--initially I liked it, eventually I grew to hate it, and I'm very glad my parents let me quit when I did. But what I was too young to figure out back then was that I really just hated that particular style of piano education. I had no interest in pushing my physical technique any further, I hated the classical music I was given, I hated playing from a score. What I needed was ear training, music theory, pop music that I was actually listening to, improvisation even. If I'd had a different teacher who worked on those things instead, I would've loved it. But I couldn't express that, I just thought I had come to hate piano.
So it could be worth trying a different instructor with a different style. But again, if the kid still hates it, then for god's sake drop it!
posted by equalpants at 6:29 PM on February 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
It's getting a little judge-y of different parenting styles in here. I think everybody should take a deep breath. Making a kid play tennis is not child abuse.
I'm with you on holding kids to the commitments they make to their teams and coaches rather than letting them quit when they get bored.
A friend of mine grew up with their parents dragging them camping and hiking. She hated it. Her parents thought they were instilling a love of the outdoors. Instead, she avoided outdoor activities for most of her childhood and young adulthood because she'd only ever had miserable experiences. Instead of excitement and freedom and self-reliance, she learned boredom and captivity. Much later in life, she started enjoying being outdoors, but she's expressed regret to me that her parents pushed it so hard when she was a kid.
It sounds like you're a tennis family. Great! Your kids are going to have a decent familiarity with tennis whether you compel them into lessons or not.
posted by sportbucket at 6:29 PM on February 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
I'm with you on holding kids to the commitments they make to their teams and coaches rather than letting them quit when they get bored.
A friend of mine grew up with their parents dragging them camping and hiking. She hated it. Her parents thought they were instilling a love of the outdoors. Instead, she avoided outdoor activities for most of her childhood and young adulthood because she'd only ever had miserable experiences. Instead of excitement and freedom and self-reliance, she learned boredom and captivity. Much later in life, she started enjoying being outdoors, but she's expressed regret to me that her parents pushed it so hard when she was a kid.
It sounds like you're a tennis family. Great! Your kids are going to have a decent familiarity with tennis whether you compel them into lessons or not.
posted by sportbucket at 6:29 PM on February 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
I feel like I need so much more info - age of the child, but also what’s the commitment and is this kind of a recent change that might be related to other things or does the child just genuinely not like tennis?
If this is a kind of twice a month family thing and the child isn’t old enough to stay home alone for that length of time, then in my family it’s basically “we do this together” and then sure, we sweeten the pot with a treat or stacking activities- like after swimming you can go on the rock climbing wall, type of thing.
I also love the invitation approach.
If your requirement is that the child achieve a certain proficiency then I think it’s a kind of negotiation, like you pay them or at that stage they get something or to pick an activity they want and you buy the drum kit or whatever. In that case though I’d try to get them to the required level as fast as possible, and then let them stop. You could give them a choice between two weeks of tennis camp or a term of lessons, for example. I’d also be 100% honest with them about why you are doing it and let them hate it.
I will say that there are kids who will learn fundamental techniques under family pressure, but there are more who just won’t reeeeeeaaally learn because they don’t want to be there. So it might be worth waiting to see if your child changes their mind. In a year, they might be more enthusiastic and ready, and end up progressing faster then.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:43 PM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
If this is a kind of twice a month family thing and the child isn’t old enough to stay home alone for that length of time, then in my family it’s basically “we do this together” and then sure, we sweeten the pot with a treat or stacking activities- like after swimming you can go on the rock climbing wall, type of thing.
I also love the invitation approach.
If your requirement is that the child achieve a certain proficiency then I think it’s a kind of negotiation, like you pay them or at that stage they get something or to pick an activity they want and you buy the drum kit or whatever. In that case though I’d try to get them to the required level as fast as possible, and then let them stop. You could give them a choice between two weeks of tennis camp or a term of lessons, for example. I’d also be 100% honest with them about why you are doing it and let them hate it.
I will say that there are kids who will learn fundamental techniques under family pressure, but there are more who just won’t reeeeeeaaally learn because they don’t want to be there. So it might be worth waiting to see if your child changes their mind. In a year, they might be more enthusiastic and ready, and end up progressing faster then.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:43 PM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
My parents did this with church, as was the norm then, I think. I’m an atheist now.
For us the non negotiable is swimming. The reason is clear — we are surrounded by water where we live and wanted to ensure that Little eirias would be okay if she wandered a block away and fell in the river. Hasn’t happened yet. Turns out she loves swimming and it’s in fact the only athletic thing we can convince her to do. But if she didn’t, we’d still have done it, but we’d have bribed her. She’s very bribeable.
posted by eirias at 6:43 PM on February 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
For us the non negotiable is swimming. The reason is clear — we are surrounded by water where we live and wanted to ensure that Little eirias would be okay if she wandered a block away and fell in the river. Hasn’t happened yet. Turns out she loves swimming and it’s in fact the only athletic thing we can convince her to do. But if she didn’t, we’d still have done it, but we’d have bribed her. She’s very bribeable.
posted by eirias at 6:43 PM on February 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Making a kid learn to swim so they are less likely to drown someday could work. Making a kid play tennis so you guys can all have fun playing tennis together seems much less likely to work. Bribing is probably your best bet, and maybe group lessons with other kids their age. (On preview: it is complete coincidence that I mentioned swimming, the comment above was posted while I was writing.)
posted by snofoam at 6:44 PM on February 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 6:44 PM on February 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
I suggest that it might be worthwhile to reflect on a couple of things:
* What is the opportunity cost, to you, your child, and your family's sense of togetherness, to continuing to insist on tennis?
* What implicit expectations of yours re tennis and tennis proficiency might your child be picking up on? How might that be warping this whole situation?
Rationales for the first question: Maybe focusing so hard on tennis means your family is missing out on a completely different activity that everybody would get something out of, and there wouldn't be any (or maybe "would be less") conflict over. Maybe if the tennis time could go toward other things -- including experimentation -- it could be fun and less stressful for everybody, and if family members take turns suggesting things, it would feel more egalitarian.
When I think back on my childhood, my parents actually gave me a lot of room to experiment, and a lot of exposure to different things. I didn't love all of them, but I did love some (theatre and music, particularly) that are part of my life to this day. I'm grateful. I definitely had friends whose parents you-must-you-must-you-must pushed them toward depth rather than breadth, and I genuinely believe I was happier than my friends were, at least about that piece of my life.
Rationale for the second question: On the other hand, my parents got weirdly invested into a notion that I would mature into an epic polyglot. I um. Didn't. And I still have several miserable scenes around that, one or the other of my parents pushing me a lot harder than I was really ready for or perhaps even capable of, and refusing to accept me expressing my own limitations, embedded indelibly in my memory.
It wasn't a you-must-you-must-you-must or imposed-hyperfocus thing. I nominally had choice! Just as you are saying that you don't expect Total Tennis Excellence from your child! But implicit expectations are still expectations, and kids absolutely do pick up on them, and... I don't know, I feel like this can devolve into a well-meaning but no less awful form of underhand manipulation? In my case my parents' implicit expectations kinda warped my self-image into something it probably shouldn't have been, with long-ranging negative consequences for me. (Snowflakes omitted; easiest if you take my word for it.) I don't know that you've reached this point with your child, but... maybe think about what point you might have reached, and whether it's a point you and your child really should be at.
posted by humbug at 6:53 PM on February 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
* What is the opportunity cost, to you, your child, and your family's sense of togetherness, to continuing to insist on tennis?
* What implicit expectations of yours re tennis and tennis proficiency might your child be picking up on? How might that be warping this whole situation?
Rationales for the first question: Maybe focusing so hard on tennis means your family is missing out on a completely different activity that everybody would get something out of, and there wouldn't be any (or maybe "would be less") conflict over. Maybe if the tennis time could go toward other things -- including experimentation -- it could be fun and less stressful for everybody, and if family members take turns suggesting things, it would feel more egalitarian.
When I think back on my childhood, my parents actually gave me a lot of room to experiment, and a lot of exposure to different things. I didn't love all of them, but I did love some (theatre and music, particularly) that are part of my life to this day. I'm grateful. I definitely had friends whose parents you-must-you-must-you-must pushed them toward depth rather than breadth, and I genuinely believe I was happier than my friends were, at least about that piece of my life.
Rationale for the second question: On the other hand, my parents got weirdly invested into a notion that I would mature into an epic polyglot. I um. Didn't. And I still have several miserable scenes around that, one or the other of my parents pushing me a lot harder than I was really ready for or perhaps even capable of, and refusing to accept me expressing my own limitations, embedded indelibly in my memory.
It wasn't a you-must-you-must-you-must or imposed-hyperfocus thing. I nominally had choice! Just as you are saying that you don't expect Total Tennis Excellence from your child! But implicit expectations are still expectations, and kids absolutely do pick up on them, and... I don't know, I feel like this can devolve into a well-meaning but no less awful form of underhand manipulation? In my case my parents' implicit expectations kinda warped my self-image into something it probably shouldn't have been, with long-ranging negative consequences for me. (Snowflakes omitted; easiest if you take my word for it.) I don't know that you've reached this point with your child, but... maybe think about what point you might have reached, and whether it's a point you and your child really should be at.
posted by humbug at 6:53 PM on February 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Don't force them.
You go play tennis. Bring them, but they can do whatever they want – colouring books, video games, whatever. Make tennis fun and maybe they'll join you.
posted by lookoutbelow at 6:54 PM on February 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
You go play tennis. Bring them, but they can do whatever they want – colouring books, video games, whatever. Make tennis fun and maybe they'll join you.
posted by lookoutbelow at 6:54 PM on February 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
We have some non-negotiable extra curriculars for our kids. Swimming lessons because they need to be able to swim for their own safety, our older kid is fine and stopped but the younger one will need to do a bit more. Skating lessons up to the point where they can comfortably skate (we're in Canada and you aren't going to enjoy winter if there aren't activities to look forward to), again the older one is done but the younger still needs more lessons. Their heritage language so that they can speak with their grandparents and cousins. They know the reasons why these are non-negotiable but also that the only one they'll have to do long-term are the language lessons.
You can probably force them to do one session of lessons but beyond that they're going to need to be at least somewhat willing participants otherwise they may come to hate tennis. Are you able to convince any of their friends to take the lessons too? They may be more willing to take the lessons if it means more socializing with friends. Also you may be able to string them along a bit longer if you give them some arbitrary goal, like they have to be able to return your serve, before they can quit. But if by that time they don't develop their own love of the game then you're really risking them never wanting to play tennis again. There's also nothing wrong with them just sitting watching or being on their phone while you play tennis. They can appreciate that you're doing a physical activity that you enjoy and that can motivate them to find their own activity.
My wife really likes volleyball and she signed up my daughter for lessons last year and she enjoyed it too. My daughter watched a volleyball anime and is now on a team and volleyball is now one of her things. My son likes whatever his big sister is doing so he likes volleyball now too and they all practice at home every day (we have a room with very high ceilings). It's something they can all bond with and make fun of my attempts to join in but if the kids didn't want to do it then they'd be back to going to parkour lessons on the weekend instead or doing something else.
I've got a dream to go on a big bikepacking trip with my kids in a couple of years, like take a month and see how far we can go on the GDMBR (Great Divide Mountain Bike Route). My goal between now and then is to get them to like biking and camping enough that it'll be something they want to do to because there's no way they can go unless they're 100% on board with the idea. If it turns out they aren't into the idea once they're old enough to do it then they'll probably go visit relatives for the summer and I'll do the bikepacking trip by myself.
Also, have they already expressed an unwillingness to take tennis lessons or is this more a "what if" scenario? If it is a what if then just do your best to make sure their first lessons are really good so that they'll want to continue and that scenario won't come to pass.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:59 PM on February 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
You can probably force them to do one session of lessons but beyond that they're going to need to be at least somewhat willing participants otherwise they may come to hate tennis. Are you able to convince any of their friends to take the lessons too? They may be more willing to take the lessons if it means more socializing with friends. Also you may be able to string them along a bit longer if you give them some arbitrary goal, like they have to be able to return your serve, before they can quit. But if by that time they don't develop their own love of the game then you're really risking them never wanting to play tennis again. There's also nothing wrong with them just sitting watching or being on their phone while you play tennis. They can appreciate that you're doing a physical activity that you enjoy and that can motivate them to find their own activity.
My wife really likes volleyball and she signed up my daughter for lessons last year and she enjoyed it too. My daughter watched a volleyball anime and is now on a team and volleyball is now one of her things. My son likes whatever his big sister is doing so he likes volleyball now too and they all practice at home every day (we have a room with very high ceilings). It's something they can all bond with and make fun of my attempts to join in but if the kids didn't want to do it then they'd be back to going to parkour lessons on the weekend instead or doing something else.
I've got a dream to go on a big bikepacking trip with my kids in a couple of years, like take a month and see how far we can go on the GDMBR (Great Divide Mountain Bike Route). My goal between now and then is to get them to like biking and camping enough that it'll be something they want to do to because there's no way they can go unless they're 100% on board with the idea. If it turns out they aren't into the idea once they're old enough to do it then they'll probably go visit relatives for the summer and I'll do the bikepacking trip by myself.
Also, have they already expressed an unwillingness to take tennis lessons or is this more a "what if" scenario? If it is a what if then just do your best to make sure their first lessons are really good so that they'll want to continue and that scenario won't come to pass.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:59 PM on February 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
So my parents made me take piano and golf as a kid, and I did not enjoy it at the time and quit as soon as they let me (several years in) but eventually came back to both as an adult. This is what I think would have made me more likely to stick with it:
- for piano, if my parents were actually interested in engaging with music beyond taking me to class and nagging me to practice.
-- following on to that, because they didn't engage with it they had no idea how I should actually be practicing, so when I did practice they'd always come by and tell me to stop playing the same phrase over and over and instead play. Which is exactly the wrong way to practice! And also the wrong way to encourage a kid to practice more.
- for both piano and golf, if they'd made it fun. All of our golf lessons were me and my brother at the driving range hitting endless balls. We never got out on the course because my dad insisted we needed to get good enough first. And with piano, I didn't do anything other than take lessons and take ABRSM exams, so it was like just another school subject I was obliged to take and that's not very motivational.
- it would probably have been helpful to have peers (idk, piano recitals or group golf lessons) who found the activity fun and could provide social pressure and/or motivation to stick with it
posted by Xany at 7:02 PM on February 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
- for piano, if my parents were actually interested in engaging with music beyond taking me to class and nagging me to practice.
-- following on to that, because they didn't engage with it they had no idea how I should actually be practicing, so when I did practice they'd always come by and tell me to stop playing the same phrase over and over and instead play
- for both piano and golf, if they'd made it fun. All of our golf lessons were me and my brother at the driving range hitting endless balls. We never got out on the course because my dad insisted we needed to get good enough first. And with piano, I didn't do anything other than take lessons and take ABRSM exams, so it was like just another school subject I was obliged to take and that's not very motivational.
- it would probably have been helpful to have peers (idk, piano recitals or group golf lessons) who found the activity fun and could provide social pressure and/or motivation to stick with it
posted by Xany at 7:02 PM on February 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Just FYI this is not about scholarships or anything, it's about having them participate in something we do as a family. We don't care if they never join a tennis team in their lives.
Then don't play regulation tennis. Be extremely goofy and fun with it, change the rules about it, mix it up. You have to make it seem interesting and fun and tennis probably doesn't for most kids.
But overall, if they don't want to do it, they don't want to do. If you and your SO love it, then make it an activity between the two of you and find some other family thing to do with everyone. Otherwise, you're probably setting yourself for a lot arguing and bad feelings, thus destroying the family affect you're trying to achieve.
Find out what the kids like and want to do and then fashion family activities around THAT.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:06 PM on February 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
Then don't play regulation tennis. Be extremely goofy and fun with it, change the rules about it, mix it up. You have to make it seem interesting and fun and tennis probably doesn't for most kids.
But overall, if they don't want to do it, they don't want to do. If you and your SO love it, then make it an activity between the two of you and find some other family thing to do with everyone. Otherwise, you're probably setting yourself for a lot arguing and bad feelings, thus destroying the family affect you're trying to achieve.
Find out what the kids like and want to do and then fashion family activities around THAT.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:06 PM on February 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
What do they want to do for family time?
posted by haplesschild at 7:22 PM on February 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by haplesschild at 7:22 PM on February 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
My father did this. He loves tennis, and he wanted me and my siblings to learn to play, so we could all play together. One of my siblings liked it, and played throughout high school. The other two of us hated it, and begged to quit constantly. I wasn't very good, and I got picked on at tennis camp and was ashamed to tell my father because I knew it was important to him, so I just got bullied in silence. My other sibling wasn't half bad, but just hated it, and again would ask repeatedly not to have to go, but my father forced it.
In middle school, I simply refused to play anymore. When it was time to go, I'd sit in the middle of the floor and refuse to get in the car. If they had picked me up and forced me into the car and over to the tennis center, I would have sat down on the court and refused to play. There is no punishment my father could have imposed that would have gotten me to play once I had decided not to. I have not played since sixth grade, and I doubt I ever will again. The most important lesson I learned from being forced to play tennis was how to set and enforce boundaries against people who are being unreasonable and trying to make me do optional things I don't want to do. That, and I watched a lot of Batman reruns in the tennis club waiting room while my siblings played.
If you want to do an activity as a family, why make it one you like and your kids don't? Why not pick an activity you all like? Or one they like and you don't, to show them that it's worth stretching your boundaries to try new things, even as an adult, so maybe someday they'll willingly do the same for you?
But the answer to your actual question is, if they don't like it and don't want to do it, you only have two options: you just fight with them constantly about it, and either you cow them into submission, or they eventually get too big for you to force them and then it stops.
posted by decathecting at 7:32 PM on February 1, 2023 [39 favorites]
In middle school, I simply refused to play anymore. When it was time to go, I'd sit in the middle of the floor and refuse to get in the car. If they had picked me up and forced me into the car and over to the tennis center, I would have sat down on the court and refused to play. There is no punishment my father could have imposed that would have gotten me to play once I had decided not to. I have not played since sixth grade, and I doubt I ever will again. The most important lesson I learned from being forced to play tennis was how to set and enforce boundaries against people who are being unreasonable and trying to make me do optional things I don't want to do. That, and I watched a lot of Batman reruns in the tennis club waiting room while my siblings played.
If you want to do an activity as a family, why make it one you like and your kids don't? Why not pick an activity you all like? Or one they like and you don't, to show them that it's worth stretching your boundaries to try new things, even as an adult, so maybe someday they'll willingly do the same for you?
But the answer to your actual question is, if they don't like it and don't want to do it, you only have two options: you just fight with them constantly about it, and either you cow them into submission, or they eventually get too big for you to force them and then it stops.
posted by decathecting at 7:32 PM on February 1, 2023 [39 favorites]
I’m going to give a fundamental lesson of improv: the scene is not about WHAT you’re doing. It’s about your relationship with your scene partner.
Life is also like that. When I think back to my loved ones and the time we’ve spent together, WHAT we were doing literally doesn’t matter. We could have been playing board games. We could have been knitting blankets. We could have been robbing banks. What mattered is that we were spending time with each other, being present and enjoying each others’ company.
You and your partner love tennis. That’s great! Your children are not extensions of your relationship with your partner.
I would suggest that you need to play around as a family and discover, together, what that thing is you enjoy doing.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:36 PM on February 1, 2023 [44 favorites]
Life is also like that. When I think back to my loved ones and the time we’ve spent together, WHAT we were doing literally doesn’t matter. We could have been playing board games. We could have been knitting blankets. We could have been robbing banks. What mattered is that we were spending time with each other, being present and enjoying each others’ company.
You and your partner love tennis. That’s great! Your children are not extensions of your relationship with your partner.
I would suggest that you need to play around as a family and discover, together, what that thing is you enjoy doing.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:36 PM on February 1, 2023 [44 favorites]
maybe perhaps find a few other things that can be done as a family, so in case ya know one or both kids just isn't into tennis.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:43 PM on February 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:43 PM on February 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Oh also, I should add, my father forcing us to play tennis has had lasting effects into adulthood. The sibling who played in high school hasn't played since high school hasn't played since high school, and only sort of halfheartedly flits among other possible forms of adult recreation and exercise. I haven't played since middle school, and the bullying turned me off to all organized sports, but I was able to find solo exercise activities I enjoyed once I was an adult and allowed to choose my own activities. So now I cycle and do yoga and take really long walks and dance badly. My other sibling who hated tennis was so turned off by it that once they were old enough that they couldn't be forced to play anymore, they not only quit tennis, but basically all athletic or exercise activities. They are now an adult who gets zero intentional exercise, despite medical advice that they should find an activity to do. They've said that they just "don't like sports or working out," but if you drill down, what they really mean is that they don't like tennis, and tennis turned them off to everything else. Also, none of us are close with our father, in part because we feel like he doesn't make any effort to meet us on our own terms and care about the things he cares about, and we feel that he gets upset when we don't care about the things he cares about.
If you don't care if they ever join a tennis team, I hope you'll at least care whether they ever enjoy any athletic activity ever again. Because that's one possible outcome of pushing in this way. And weirdly, the sibling who ended up responding that way was less angry about being forced to play when we were kids than I was; they were the one who acquiesced when I threw a tantrum and refused. So you can't always predict from their reaction now how being forced into things they don't like will affect them later.
posted by decathecting at 7:44 PM on February 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
If you don't care if they ever join a tennis team, I hope you'll at least care whether they ever enjoy any athletic activity ever again. Because that's one possible outcome of pushing in this way. And weirdly, the sibling who ended up responding that way was less angry about being forced to play when we were kids than I was; they were the one who acquiesced when I threw a tantrum and refused. So you can't always predict from their reaction now how being forced into things they don't like will affect them later.
posted by decathecting at 7:44 PM on February 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
Our non-negotiable is that each child partake in an extracurricular activity of their choosing. The activity can change at natural cutovers but once it starts they need to finish it. For example, if you start soccer you finish the season. If you start art class you finish the series.
Sometimes they’ll do something for years, like 1 child did karate for 3 years.
Other things are 1 session and done. Gymnastics was a 1 and done 8 weeks of classes thing.
posted by MadMadam at 7:58 PM on February 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Sometimes they’ll do something for years, like 1 child did karate for 3 years.
Other things are 1 session and done. Gymnastics was a 1 and done 8 weeks of classes thing.
posted by MadMadam at 7:58 PM on February 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
You can try asking them what would help them enjoy tennis more / what they don't like about playing tennis with their parents. It's possible that they may give you actionable feedback.
However, nthing you can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink. It's not a fun family activity if it isn't fun for everyone. You can try turning family activity time into a round robin so that at least some of the time parent choice is tennis.
Also, any chance that a growing dislike of tennis is due to vision difficulties?
posted by oceano at 7:58 PM on February 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
However, nthing you can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink. It's not a fun family activity if it isn't fun for everyone. You can try turning family activity time into a round robin so that at least some of the time parent choice is tennis.
Also, any chance that a growing dislike of tennis is due to vision difficulties?
posted by oceano at 7:58 PM on February 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
My dad made me play tennis. I hated playing as a kid for a few reasons.
First, I hated playing in the sun when it was hot.
Second, my dad was always sort of yelling at me to “hustle” and play seriously but I didn’t eve like tennis that much.
Third, to avoid the heat we would get up early to play which I came to absolutely hate as I became a sleep deprived teen.
If you are playing tennis as a family activity and your kids are not that into it I’d think about things like the weather and if they’re comfortable or whether the level of competitive is actually fun for them. My dad wanted us to play hard to win, and that was just never fun for me. If we had played as a more leisurely activity and an opportunity to hang out and get some exercise I may not have been so not into it.
posted by forkisbetter at 7:59 PM on February 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
First, I hated playing in the sun when it was hot.
Second, my dad was always sort of yelling at me to “hustle” and play seriously but I didn’t eve like tennis that much.
Third, to avoid the heat we would get up early to play which I came to absolutely hate as I became a sleep deprived teen.
If you are playing tennis as a family activity and your kids are not that into it I’d think about things like the weather and if they’re comfortable or whether the level of competitive is actually fun for them. My dad wanted us to play hard to win, and that was just never fun for me. If we had played as a more leisurely activity and an opportunity to hang out and get some exercise I may not have been so not into it.
posted by forkisbetter at 7:59 PM on February 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
According to a recent question, your kids are 7 and 9. At that age, I wouldn't have enjoyed literal tennis, but I did enjoy making up games with weird funny rules to play on the tennis courts in the public park near my house.
posted by donnagirl at 8:15 PM on February 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by donnagirl at 8:15 PM on February 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
I explain. I don't force.
I think if you can explain rationally and lovingly why it's important, you may be able to get somewhere. "We love you and really want to spend time with you. Parent2 really wants to share their love of the game with you. We know it's rough in the beginning, because you don't have the skills yet, but we're asking you to stick with it enough to get comfortable, so that it becomes something we can do for fun together."
But be ready to bend -- to do things like not keep score, for instance. They don't need to keep score in order to learn game skills. Maybe think of some fun reward to do that increases with, like, how long they can keep a rally going. And, fair's fair: if they have to spend time on this game that only Parent2 enjoys, then you should also offer to spend time playing a game they like, even if it's a board game or a video game or something you ordinarily wouldn't like to do.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:46 PM on February 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think if you can explain rationally and lovingly why it's important, you may be able to get somewhere. "We love you and really want to spend time with you. Parent2 really wants to share their love of the game with you. We know it's rough in the beginning, because you don't have the skills yet, but we're asking you to stick with it enough to get comfortable, so that it becomes something we can do for fun together."
But be ready to bend -- to do things like not keep score, for instance. They don't need to keep score in order to learn game skills. Maybe think of some fun reward to do that increases with, like, how long they can keep a rally going. And, fair's fair: if they have to spend time on this game that only Parent2 enjoys, then you should also offer to spend time playing a game they like, even if it's a board game or a video game or something you ordinarily wouldn't like to do.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:46 PM on February 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you were going on vacation with beloved friends, and one of them was averse to heights, would you declare that all of you had to go to a mountain cabin that you owned just because the mountain cabin was a place you loved? You'd find something, or somewhere, that you all could enjoy.
Your child might have an amazing talent for trampoline, or sculpture, or painting, or robotics, but if they have to spend time at tennis lessons and music lessons they might never get a chance to discover or express it. Yes, they might be exposed to it at school (in a high-pressure and implicitly competitive setting), but that's not time exploring, practicing, discovering, or just creating -- those things have to happen outside of a class, even if they are partly in a class. They also need to be self chosen and self directed, at least after a certain age.
Also: cats love boxes, they love sitting in boxes, they love crawling into boxes -- unless you try to shove one into a box he didn't choose himself.
posted by amtho at 9:53 PM on February 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
Your child might have an amazing talent for trampoline, or sculpture, or painting, or robotics, but if they have to spend time at tennis lessons and music lessons they might never get a chance to discover or express it. Yes, they might be exposed to it at school (in a high-pressure and implicitly competitive setting), but that's not time exploring, practicing, discovering, or just creating -- those things have to happen outside of a class, even if they are partly in a class. They also need to be self chosen and self directed, at least after a certain age.
Also: cats love boxes, they love sitting in boxes, they love crawling into boxes -- unless you try to shove one into a box he didn't choose himself.
posted by amtho at 9:53 PM on February 1, 2023 [16 favorites]
There’s a lot of text for you to read through here but what about something like, “sure, not tennis lessons, but choose X, Y, or Z activities and I’d still like you to do a series of 6 lessons over a year just to keep exploring it.”
The only extracurricular I press is swimming because I feel like it’s a life skill. My explanation is, “if you fall in the water and you can’t swim, you could die.” Tennis is hard to sell that way.
posted by vunder at 10:33 PM on February 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
The only extracurricular I press is swimming because I feel like it’s a life skill. My explanation is, “if you fall in the water and you can’t swim, you could die.” Tennis is hard to sell that way.
posted by vunder at 10:33 PM on February 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
forcing children to follow through on a commitment they willingly made in the first flush of enthusiasm for a new activity is one thing, if the compulsory follow-through time has a set limit they were aware of at the outset. like, if they begged you for tennis lessons and then got bored six weeks in, I personally think it is fine to force them to keep going to lessons for the duration of the (let's say) six months you paid for in advance, to teach them several lessons. whether or not they hate you for it, it's still worth doing.
forcing them to keep playing tennis when it was never their idea in the first place, because you want them to be tennis players so that they can be like you, is a completely different thing. there aren't any serious defenses for it.
if you, the adults, want the whole family to have one interest or activity in common, you can pick something your kids love to do and learn to do that thing yourselves.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:33 PM on February 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
forcing them to keep playing tennis when it was never their idea in the first place, because you want them to be tennis players so that they can be like you, is a completely different thing. there aren't any serious defenses for it.
if you, the adults, want the whole family to have one interest or activity in common, you can pick something your kids love to do and learn to do that thing yourselves.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:33 PM on February 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
I thought about your question a little more. It may well be that your little one doesn't actually know anything about tennis yet, and hasn't actually tried it, or hasn't tried it enough. In which case, I apologize for my presumptuous earlier take.
If you want to encourage your kid to try tennis and to see it as something fun (which is important -- they _have_ to feel that it's fun, because that's the whole point!), here are some ideas:
- Have them watch you and your spouse, or some other person, play tennis, casually, and see how much fun it is for you (be real about it though!). Let them in on some of the complexities - "My swing was supposed to be this way (demonstrate), but I have a tendency to do this instead (demonstrate). But when I do it right, it feels awesome!
- You gotta gotta read this book: "The Inner Game of Tennis" is inspiring in its approach to all kinds of teaching and skill building; it inspired "A Soprano on Her Head" (which is mainly about playing piano), and it's all about how to _actually_ get better at something without stressing about it. There's a lot about what not to do, but a big theme is focus on just noticing what _is_ happening. If you can do that, you can (and should) relax about everything else. Just focus on the moment, and how things feel. This isn't relevant to your tiny child yet (I hope), but it does give a perspective on how a skill can be enjoyable and stay enjoyable, PLUS it can give you something to look for when and if you interview potential instructors for any skill.
- You child -- and most people -- will probably be influenced by how you present the activity. If it's something they are "allowed" to do sometimes as a treat -- or as maybe part of a program for a family fun day -- I think it might be more well received.
- In the same vein: start very informally and very connectedly. Are there some fun parent-and-child activities that can be done with the racket and ball, or some component skills that can be built together off the court? Is there a way to do it in short 10-minute sessions that don't have a chance to get boring or stressful? Is there a way to play that's not about competing/defeating someone else, but more cooperatively (as: if we can work together to keep the ball in play for 10 returns with no misses, we all get to get ice cream! And if not, we can just have yogurt at the house and hang for a while.)
posted by amtho at 10:35 PM on February 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
If you want to encourage your kid to try tennis and to see it as something fun (which is important -- they _have_ to feel that it's fun, because that's the whole point!), here are some ideas:
- Have them watch you and your spouse, or some other person, play tennis, casually, and see how much fun it is for you (be real about it though!). Let them in on some of the complexities - "My swing was supposed to be this way (demonstrate), but I have a tendency to do this instead (demonstrate). But when I do it right, it feels awesome!
- You gotta gotta read this book: "The Inner Game of Tennis" is inspiring in its approach to all kinds of teaching and skill building; it inspired "A Soprano on Her Head" (which is mainly about playing piano), and it's all about how to _actually_ get better at something without stressing about it. There's a lot about what not to do, but a big theme is focus on just noticing what _is_ happening. If you can do that, you can (and should) relax about everything else. Just focus on the moment, and how things feel. This isn't relevant to your tiny child yet (I hope), but it does give a perspective on how a skill can be enjoyable and stay enjoyable, PLUS it can give you something to look for when and if you interview potential instructors for any skill.
- You child -- and most people -- will probably be influenced by how you present the activity. If it's something they are "allowed" to do sometimes as a treat -- or as maybe part of a program for a family fun day -- I think it might be more well received.
- In the same vein: start very informally and very connectedly. Are there some fun parent-and-child activities that can be done with the racket and ball, or some component skills that can be built together off the court? Is there a way to do it in short 10-minute sessions that don't have a chance to get boring or stressful? Is there a way to play that's not about competing/defeating someone else, but more cooperatively (as: if we can work together to keep the ball in play for 10 returns with no misses, we all get to get ice cream! And if not, we can just have yogurt at the house and hang for a while.)
posted by amtho at 10:35 PM on February 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
As a child, I was forced to go to church no matter how much I protested.
As an adult, I will never voluntarily attend a church service ever again. (I have even skipped friends weddings if I thought they would be too religious of a service!)
Do you want this to be your kids, but with tennis?
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 10:38 PM on February 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
As an adult, I will never voluntarily attend a church service ever again. (I have even skipped friends weddings if I thought they would be too religious of a service!)
Do you want this to be your kids, but with tennis?
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 10:38 PM on February 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Oh: and you can _talk_ about tennis with your spouse or other playing partner, around your kids, and try to a) figure out how to say what's so fun about it, but mainly b) let them see how excited you are by it, and how much fun you have around it. They should associate tennis (or any activity) with non-verbal signals that communicate positive emotions, as much as possible, and from a genuine place. If your child is sitting at the table while you talk with someone else rather than at your child, you can be very genuine and actually enjoy the conversation or the anticipation of or reflection on a game.
Some kids won't observe this kind of thing without prompting, so it's OK to say something like, "I just get so excited about tennis, and it's so great to be able to play with my family! Of course we could do Putt-Putt together, but something about [whatever aspect you like -- the exertion? The sun? The mental aspect] really makes us feel great, and then we have the best conversations afterward." Then _don't_ bring up tennis lessons, or their participation -- this is just you showing that aspect of yourself, and sharing your joy, and being happy, full stop.
posted by amtho at 10:44 PM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some kids won't observe this kind of thing without prompting, so it's OK to say something like, "I just get so excited about tennis, and it's so great to be able to play with my family! Of course we could do Putt-Putt together, but something about [whatever aspect you like -- the exertion? The sun? The mental aspect] really makes us feel great, and then we have the best conversations afterward." Then _don't_ bring up tennis lessons, or their participation -- this is just you showing that aspect of yourself, and sharing your joy, and being happy, full stop.
posted by amtho at 10:44 PM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I guess you are feeling a bit piled on… reading through all this has made me think a lot about my own parent who also pushed me down paths that made sense to them but weren’t right for me. And sometimes the difference was quite subtle - with a bit more listening things could have been very different (and so much better) for both of us.
This might have been where their thinking started, with an idea that should have been fun and beneficial.
I am not them and don’t share their passions. It was too difficult for them to relinquish that dream so they kept trying to force it “for my own good”, and not in the constructive ways that have been suggested here. One of them, I don’t speak to at all any more. The fallout has all been too great and they can’t see it or ever admit to it. It’s a shame.
It is so heartening to read so many constructive suggestions centring on building a happy family. Parents in previous generations didn’t have this huge, varied sounding board. I wonder if this is where so many unfortunate parental relationships started, with parents looking for this solution and going in the wrong direction, with only a small pool of people to bounce ideas off.
So much great advice you’ve been given. Parenting is so very difficult. Wishing you the best of luck working through it .
posted by tardigrade at 12:35 AM on February 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
This might have been where their thinking started, with an idea that should have been fun and beneficial.
I am not them and don’t share their passions. It was too difficult for them to relinquish that dream so they kept trying to force it “for my own good”, and not in the constructive ways that have been suggested here. One of them, I don’t speak to at all any more. The fallout has all been too great and they can’t see it or ever admit to it. It’s a shame.
It is so heartening to read so many constructive suggestions centring on building a happy family. Parents in previous generations didn’t have this huge, varied sounding board. I wonder if this is where so many unfortunate parental relationships started, with parents looking for this solution and going in the wrong direction, with only a small pool of people to bounce ideas off.
So much great advice you’ve been given. Parenting is so very difficult. Wishing you the best of luck working through it .
posted by tardigrade at 12:35 AM on February 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
If you want your children to know music, fill your home with music. Talk about the music you love, text each other Spotify links, take up new instruments yourselves, go see live music together.
If you want them to play tennis, play tennis together and watch movies about tennis and historic matches on YouTube and otherwise show them why you love it. (This scene in Field of Dreams is an idealized example.)
Save your non-negotiables for the teen years. You'll need them!
I agree with you on quitting a sport mid-season. They've made a commitment to their coach and teammates, and seeing a season through is a low-stakes way of teaching them to honor their commitments.
posted by headnsouth at 1:42 AM on February 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you want them to play tennis, play tennis together and watch movies about tennis and historic matches on YouTube and otherwise show them why you love it. (This scene in Field of Dreams is an idealized example.)
Save your non-negotiables for the teen years. You'll need them!
I agree with you on quitting a sport mid-season. They've made a commitment to their coach and teammates, and seeing a season through is a low-stakes way of teaching them to honor their commitments.
posted by headnsouth at 1:42 AM on February 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
If I was wanting to ensure my child hated an activity and avoided it like the plague, I’d employ OP’s strategy of forcing them to do it. As soon as most people are told they have to do something, they’ll get their back up just because you’ve taken away their free will - that’s just natural.
If I was wanting to convince someone of the fun in a hobby, I’d just take them along and let them watch while I played and see how much fun I was having. I wouldn’t invite them to join in. Just watch. Do that for a while. Eventually they’ll probably ask if they can have a turn. Relent, but not every time. Then play with them, and let them stop when they’ve had enough.
Take them out for ice cream afterwards. Make sure everything about it is a positive experience at least at the start. Let them do it on their terms and they’ll probably end up loving it because it becomes a bonding experience between you two instead of a chore.
posted by Jubey at 1:57 AM on February 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
If I was wanting to convince someone of the fun in a hobby, I’d just take them along and let them watch while I played and see how much fun I was having. I wouldn’t invite them to join in. Just watch. Do that for a while. Eventually they’ll probably ask if they can have a turn. Relent, but not every time. Then play with them, and let them stop when they’ve had enough.
Take them out for ice cream afterwards. Make sure everything about it is a positive experience at least at the start. Let them do it on their terms and they’ll probably end up loving it because it becomes a bonding experience between you two instead of a chore.
posted by Jubey at 1:57 AM on February 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m going to jump in one more time because this is feeling a little pile-on-y and say that I have also found another role for making choices my kid objects to. It’s a little bit different because it’s not actually that I intend to mandate a specific activity that reflects family values, necessarily, although one of the activities is actually one I did as a kid too. It’s more: you need to learn to get on with other kids, because mere exposure in the classroom is not cutting it; here are some extracurriculars that involve some structured social give and take and that I think you would like if you gave them a chance; I’m going to sign you up for one round against your cries of protest because I know from experience that you always protest new stuff and then like a week into it you’re like OMG GREATEST THING EVER. But from the cries themselves you’d think I was farming her out for hard labor on an asteroid. Sometimes kids are ridiculous, is my point, and left to their own devices it would be nothing but Animal Crossing. I think it’s okay to force, a little bit, sometimes.
I really like the suggestions you’ve had above about making each tennis round short, low stakes, and followed by a treat. This is more or less how we approached piano practicing when we were trying to build the habit. Again, slightly different because she chose piano, but she would not have chosen practicing. Some of the protest may indeed be the discomfort of pushing through learning a skill, and that is absolutely worth insisting that they do, in some domain.
posted by eirias at 3:54 AM on February 2, 2023
I really like the suggestions you’ve had above about making each tennis round short, low stakes, and followed by a treat. This is more or less how we approached piano practicing when we were trying to build the habit. Again, slightly different because she chose piano, but she would not have chosen practicing. Some of the protest may indeed be the discomfort of pushing through learning a skill, and that is absolutely worth insisting that they do, in some domain.
posted by eirias at 3:54 AM on February 2, 2023
I'm with you on holding kids to the commitments they make to their teams and coaches rather than letting them quit when they get bored.
Who is "they"?
I don't see any indication in the question that the kids made any commitments or expressed any interest in tennis. In fact I see a note that the kids are resistant, i.e. they literally don't want to play tennis, which is the opposite of "making a commitment" to this activity.
It's fair (to me) to set a policy that kids should follow through for a minimum time on hobbies or extracurriculars that they want to do, but that's not the situation here!
posted by andrewesque at 4:35 AM on February 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Who is "they"?
I don't see any indication in the question that the kids made any commitments or expressed any interest in tennis. In fact I see a note that the kids are resistant, i.e. they literally don't want to play tennis, which is the opposite of "making a commitment" to this activity.
It's fair (to me) to set a policy that kids should follow through for a minimum time on hobbies or extracurriculars that they want to do, but that's not the situation here!
posted by andrewesque at 4:35 AM on February 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't see any indication in the question that the kids made any commitments or expressed any interest in tennis.
No, they were referring to the first sentence of the post about other activities ("e.g. soccer").
posted by fabius at 5:10 AM on February 2, 2023
No, they were referring to the first sentence of the post about other activities ("e.g. soccer").
posted by fabius at 5:10 AM on February 2, 2023
My family made me take piano, horse riding, tennis camp, and a numer of other things as one-offs. I don't do any of those. Only the piano part was horrible, though (I tried for a while, because my whole family is musical and everyone played instruments, but my teacher finally had a talk with my mother) (they really wanted me to be able to participate in the impromptu musicality that was so big a part of our family), because the others were presented as one-offs.
I followed the same sort of strategy with my own kid - chorus, rowing, etc. - and the only thing that took was fencing. The neighbor kids were going to fencing lessons, and my fourth grade kid went along with them. After they quit, my kid kept going. It was frustrating and often difficult, but the test was that every time we asked our kid if they wanted to quit, they were offended at the idea. They fenced allt the way through college and I ended up fencing myself.
In my years of teaching, I saw plenty of kids who were expected to learn skills as part of family culture, and for many of them it worked out fine but they stopped as soon as they were on their own. The kids who kept going were the ones who, like my kid, couldn't imagine quitting when it got hard because they loved it.
Quitting is always an option. You can quit anything.
posted by Peach at 6:05 AM on February 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
I followed the same sort of strategy with my own kid - chorus, rowing, etc. - and the only thing that took was fencing. The neighbor kids were going to fencing lessons, and my fourth grade kid went along with them. After they quit, my kid kept going. It was frustrating and often difficult, but the test was that every time we asked our kid if they wanted to quit, they were offended at the idea. They fenced allt the way through college and I ended up fencing myself.
In my years of teaching, I saw plenty of kids who were expected to learn skills as part of family culture, and for many of them it worked out fine but they stopped as soon as they were on their own. The kids who kept going were the ones who, like my kid, couldn't imagine quitting when it got hard because they loved it.
Quitting is always an option. You can quit anything.
posted by Peach at 6:05 AM on February 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
A followup to my comment/suggestion above: it comes from my experience as the parent, not as the kid. My son got interested in rocks, music, etc. so I curriculumed up some geology instruction, piano lessons, etc. that absolutely took the fun out of it for him. Looking back, I turned several of his idle curiosities into subject matter, making everything a thing to learn instead of just be curious about. Among the things he learned was to keep his interests to himself. I regret that the most, because it took from him not only the enthusiasms themselves but the excitement of sharing new discoveries with others. That's not something a child should learn at home.
posted by headnsouth at 6:12 AM on February 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by headnsouth at 6:12 AM on February 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
At your kids' ages, tennis is really difficult and not fun for most kids. Is there actual research showing that (outside of pro-level stuff; you absolutely don't want to get your kids in that scene unless they actively want to) it makes a huge difference for them to get the early foundation you're concerned about? Because it seems to me that waiting until they are teenagers (and likely to find it more rewarding) to push this makes sense.
Until then, offer to play tennis-adjacent-skill games with them, watch and discuss tennis on TV so they absorb the rules and such (if they don't find this interesting make it an event with special snacks etc. and don't watch more than one match), buy them tennis clothes if they like that sort of thing, etc.
posted by metasarah at 6:19 AM on February 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Until then, offer to play tennis-adjacent-skill games with them, watch and discuss tennis on TV so they absorb the rules and such (if they don't find this interesting make it an event with special snacks etc. and don't watch more than one match), buy them tennis clothes if they like that sort of thing, etc.
posted by metasarah at 6:19 AM on February 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I play tennis as an adult and started as a kid. When I was young I just played with my mom (she & her sisters are all enthusiasts), and she was very chill and low-stakes about it, which made it fun. Later on I took some parks & rec "classes" that were mostly just playing around with other kids while on a tennis court. Over time I got okay at it and was on the tennis team in high school. I am not good at tennis by any means, but I definitely play at the level of "have fun with your family", and I think that's a really achievable goal for your kids as long as you keep it fun and low-pressure.
Just play tennis with your kids the same way you go for walks or to the playground, and don't worry about formal lessons until they're older (if ever, it's not that hard to pick up "do as a family" level tennis -- my husband has never taken a tennis lesson in his life and plays with me just fine)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 6:36 AM on February 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Just play tennis with your kids the same way you go for walks or to the playground, and don't worry about formal lessons until they're older (if ever, it's not that hard to pick up "do as a family" level tennis -- my husband has never taken a tennis lesson in his life and plays with me just fine)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 6:36 AM on February 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I gently invite you to consider that children are people with their own tastes and preferences, and not simply extensions of oneself.
Yes, there are reasons to encourage a child to persevere at challenging things, but that must be lightly applied or you risk turning apathy into hatred and resentment that can last a lifetime and expand to include you as a parent, as well.
posted by ananci at 6:43 AM on February 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yes, there are reasons to encourage a child to persevere at challenging things, but that must be lightly applied or you risk turning apathy into hatred and resentment that can last a lifetime and expand to include you as a parent, as well.
posted by ananci at 6:43 AM on February 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Veering a bit off trend here, I'm one of the rare kid who was strongly encouraged to stick with the hobby inspite of a certain lack of enthusiasm (and talent), where it more or less paid off, in the sense that I'm now rather glad I did. I took years and years of piano lessons, inspite of being neither terribly good at nor particularly into it, because of a certain implication my mother would be rather disappointed if I quit, and now I play very badly, but I do play, and I'm disproportionally pleased with having the little skill I do have.
Couple of things:
I wasn't terribly good, and not terribly enthusiastic, but I also didn't have a strong distate for the affair. I took private lessons with our neighbour, who was very patient and never scolded my for not praticising enough. My mother wanted me to take the lessons, but she didn't make me practice, which lead to me not progressing very much in many, many years, but also prevented me from developing any particular resentment towards the activity.
Most importantly I knew that I could quit if I was willing to have that argument with mum. It seemed to me a bit more work than just continuing with the lessons, so I didn't, but my brother for instance quit very early.
I also generally just liked my piano teacher, our neighbour, who was widowed and lived (still lives) on a small pension, and I guessed she could use the money.
Ultimately, I still agree with everyone that there really should not be such a thing as a non-negotiable extra-curricular. If your kid really wants to quit, you really need to let them.
But I do think that sticking with things even if they don't seem to provide much immediate gratifciation can sometimes be quite rewarding in the long term - it think it's a good character building exercise to try to learn something that doesn't come to you easily and where you don't get much external validation because you'll always suck a bit compared to other people with actual talent. I feel this has really served me well in all kinds of contexts in later life; teaches a valueable lesson about learning just for the joy of learning. But it's easy to see why a lot people will think that's just not enough of a justification to use precious leisure time for something that's only intermittently rewarding.
And of course there are always opportunity costs. If you make your kid play tennis, they may lack the time and energy to discover their true passion for the piano and vice versa. In that light, that's maybe not worth the character building exercise.
If you really want to keep pushing tennis as the family-bonding-activity, you definitely have to make it as low-key, low-pressure as possible. Never any critical comments if your kids are bad at it and never improve. Never any competitions. I would even advise avoiding all occasions that invite comparison. I would have quit piano immediately if my mom had sent me to music school instead of paying for private lessons. It's all good and right to find my peace with the idea of sucking compared to others, but I don't need to see constant evidence.
You could also try to talk up the character-building element, regale your kids with stories of all the times you wanted to quit something prematurely, and now are really glad you stuck with it, and definitely talk up all the non-competition orieted benefits of tennis - try to make it seem fun, even one isn't skilled enough to win. No idea whether that can actually be done, but if you want to sell tennis as a low-pressure bonding thing, you absolutely need to try.
posted by sohalt at 7:08 AM on February 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Couple of things:
I wasn't terribly good, and not terribly enthusiastic, but I also didn't have a strong distate for the affair. I took private lessons with our neighbour, who was very patient and never scolded my for not praticising enough. My mother wanted me to take the lessons, but she didn't make me practice, which lead to me not progressing very much in many, many years, but also prevented me from developing any particular resentment towards the activity.
Most importantly I knew that I could quit if I was willing to have that argument with mum. It seemed to me a bit more work than just continuing with the lessons, so I didn't, but my brother for instance quit very early.
I also generally just liked my piano teacher, our neighbour, who was widowed and lived (still lives) on a small pension, and I guessed she could use the money.
Ultimately, I still agree with everyone that there really should not be such a thing as a non-negotiable extra-curricular. If your kid really wants to quit, you really need to let them.
But I do think that sticking with things even if they don't seem to provide much immediate gratifciation can sometimes be quite rewarding in the long term - it think it's a good character building exercise to try to learn something that doesn't come to you easily and where you don't get much external validation because you'll always suck a bit compared to other people with actual talent. I feel this has really served me well in all kinds of contexts in later life; teaches a valueable lesson about learning just for the joy of learning. But it's easy to see why a lot people will think that's just not enough of a justification to use precious leisure time for something that's only intermittently rewarding.
And of course there are always opportunity costs. If you make your kid play tennis, they may lack the time and energy to discover their true passion for the piano and vice versa. In that light, that's maybe not worth the character building exercise.
If you really want to keep pushing tennis as the family-bonding-activity, you definitely have to make it as low-key, low-pressure as possible. Never any critical comments if your kids are bad at it and never improve. Never any competitions. I would even advise avoiding all occasions that invite comparison. I would have quit piano immediately if my mom had sent me to music school instead of paying for private lessons. It's all good and right to find my peace with the idea of sucking compared to others, but I don't need to see constant evidence.
You could also try to talk up the character-building element, regale your kids with stories of all the times you wanted to quit something prematurely, and now are really glad you stuck with it, and definitely talk up all the non-competition orieted benefits of tennis - try to make it seem fun, even one isn't skilled enough to win. No idea whether that can actually be done, but if you want to sell tennis as a low-pressure bonding thing, you absolutely need to try.
posted by sohalt at 7:08 AM on February 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
My parents always did the "you have to stick with it through the season/year/batch of lessons" for music, sports, etc. The vast majority of those things I ended up hating at worst, or not continuing once I was an adult at best.
But there is one exception: downhill skiing. I guess technically my parents forced me and my siblings to ski, but it never felt like it. That's because we did it together as a family, starting at age 5 or 6. Every Saturday, we'd pile into the minivan with our gear and drive to the ski resort. We would take group lessons geared toward our age and ability for the first half of the day, then we'd ski together as the family for the afternoon. There was never an expectation that we got "good" or did it competitively in any way, but there was also not an option to stay home on Saturdays. Once we were old enough if we were having a bad day they'd let us just hang out in the lodge by the fire and read or people watch or whatever after our lessons. But we grew up to love skiing and snow sports in general and those are some of my happiest memories.
I wonder if the structure of it (every Saturday in the winter, no exceptions) helped. There's also the fact that skiing isn't competitive. Sports was much less enjoyable to me any time I had to be "good" or risk letting down myself or my team.
I think lessons are okay, especially if trying to teach them yourselves is fraught with conflict and frustration. But it really has to be a family activity some of the time, with "outs" like sitting outside watching instead of playing for days when they are just not feeling it.
posted by misskaz at 7:18 AM on February 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
But there is one exception: downhill skiing. I guess technically my parents forced me and my siblings to ski, but it never felt like it. That's because we did it together as a family, starting at age 5 or 6. Every Saturday, we'd pile into the minivan with our gear and drive to the ski resort. We would take group lessons geared toward our age and ability for the first half of the day, then we'd ski together as the family for the afternoon. There was never an expectation that we got "good" or did it competitively in any way, but there was also not an option to stay home on Saturdays. Once we were old enough if we were having a bad day they'd let us just hang out in the lodge by the fire and read or people watch or whatever after our lessons. But we grew up to love skiing and snow sports in general and those are some of my happiest memories.
I wonder if the structure of it (every Saturday in the winter, no exceptions) helped. There's also the fact that skiing isn't competitive. Sports was much less enjoyable to me any time I had to be "good" or risk letting down myself or my team.
I think lessons are okay, especially if trying to teach them yourselves is fraught with conflict and frustration. But it really has to be a family activity some of the time, with "outs" like sitting outside watching instead of playing for days when they are just not feeling it.
posted by misskaz at 7:18 AM on February 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
So here's the actual answer. You need to bribe them, and you need to bribe them with something they value enough to make it worth it to them. This is great practice for things like "having a job", because most people do not actually love the thing that they do but like receiving money.
I would say your best path here is to bribe them on a per-occasion basis. Give them a bribe for every time they play tennis. If you want them to "try hard", give them additional bribes for every point they score, or some other arbitrary standard. And again, these have to be *real bribes*. It might wind up being too expensive for you, in which case you have to accept that it's not possible. You can't give them a shitty bribe and then be like "well but also you love me."
You can say: "every time we play tennis we will go out to eat at X restaurant afterwards" or "you can buy a video game".
You cannot bribe them with things that they would want to do and have a reasonable expectation of doing anyway. Ie, no "an hour of tennis gets you two hours of TV", because they have a reasonable expectation of watching TV, and that just means you're placing limitations on their consumption of the fun thing so you have something to bribe them with.
There is no other way to approach this, because there is no other fair way to approach this and no other effective way to approach this that doesn't lead to resentment.
posted by corb at 7:29 AM on February 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
I would say your best path here is to bribe them on a per-occasion basis. Give them a bribe for every time they play tennis. If you want them to "try hard", give them additional bribes for every point they score, or some other arbitrary standard. And again, these have to be *real bribes*. It might wind up being too expensive for you, in which case you have to accept that it's not possible. You can't give them a shitty bribe and then be like "well but also you love me."
You can say: "every time we play tennis we will go out to eat at X restaurant afterwards" or "you can buy a video game".
You cannot bribe them with things that they would want to do and have a reasonable expectation of doing anyway. Ie, no "an hour of tennis gets you two hours of TV", because they have a reasonable expectation of watching TV, and that just means you're placing limitations on their consumption of the fun thing so you have something to bribe them with.
There is no other way to approach this, because there is no other fair way to approach this and no other effective way to approach this that doesn't lead to resentment.
posted by corb at 7:29 AM on February 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
If they are resisting playing tennis, they already know that you want them to learn to play tennis. I agree with Corb that if you go with external motivation like a bribe, it has to be every time and worth their while to be effective.
I feel like there is one way to build internal motivation. You need to go hang out somewhere where there is literally nothing to do except there are a bunch of kids their age who are already playing tennis. Bonus points if one of their friends is there playing tennis. Like sign them up for drop in lessons, casually tell the instructor who they are, you bring them along to you and your partner playing tennis and if they get bored just be like, "oh well you can hang out with the kids over there if you want to, I guess. Your racquets are in the bag if you want them." Give them a chance to find the fun on their own.
Also fwiw most olympians don't just stick with one sport in childhood but bounce from sport to sport until they find one that sticks. NYT source
posted by donut_princess at 7:44 AM on February 2, 2023
I feel like there is one way to build internal motivation. You need to go hang out somewhere where there is literally nothing to do except there are a bunch of kids their age who are already playing tennis. Bonus points if one of their friends is there playing tennis. Like sign them up for drop in lessons, casually tell the instructor who they are, you bring them along to you and your partner playing tennis and if they get bored just be like, "oh well you can hang out with the kids over there if you want to, I guess. Your racquets are in the bag if you want them." Give them a chance to find the fun on their own.
Also fwiw most olympians don't just stick with one sport in childhood but bounce from sport to sport until they find one that sticks. NYT source
posted by donut_princess at 7:44 AM on February 2, 2023
Ask them how much they want to be paid to play tennis with you. Stipulate that they aren't allowed to complain about playing, and they have to really try.
We did this with our daughter and piano practice. At first, daughter begged for a piano at the age of 7. We have a spectacular piano teacher in our town, but we didn’t have a piano so at first we would use her school’s after hours. I wanted her to earn her piano at home. So when she showed signs of sticking with it after a couple of months, we got a piano. Then it was a battle to get her to practice for the next four years. If I didn’t make her do it, she wouldn’t practice. They had two concerts a year to prepare for, so she definitely had external pressure, but as he just wanted to know how to play without having to work at it, heh. I didn’t want her to quit because she had made a verbal commitment, so I told her I would pay her to practice OR she could clean the house the same number of hours per week for half the wage. Being a musician is a skill so that job earns more. That worked pretty well for a couple of years, but in middle school she was so done with it. Now she cleans the house , her choice. I’ve offered to get her lessons in anything where she’s learning a skill and she’s not interested right now. She runs track during spring so she doesn’t have to work as many hours house cleaning. Running is a skill! Forcing kids to do things is so completely unsatisfying for everyone, but I would insist on them doing something, or they clean the house those same hours.
posted by waving at 8:09 AM on February 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
We did this with our daughter and piano practice. At first, daughter begged for a piano at the age of 7. We have a spectacular piano teacher in our town, but we didn’t have a piano so at first we would use her school’s after hours. I wanted her to earn her piano at home. So when she showed signs of sticking with it after a couple of months, we got a piano. Then it was a battle to get her to practice for the next four years. If I didn’t make her do it, she wouldn’t practice. They had two concerts a year to prepare for, so she definitely had external pressure, but as he just wanted to know how to play without having to work at it, heh. I didn’t want her to quit because she had made a verbal commitment, so I told her I would pay her to practice OR she could clean the house the same number of hours per week for half the wage. Being a musician is a skill so that job earns more. That worked pretty well for a couple of years, but in middle school she was so done with it. Now she cleans the house , her choice. I’ve offered to get her lessons in anything where she’s learning a skill and she’s not interested right now. She runs track during spring so she doesn’t have to work as many hours house cleaning. Running is a skill! Forcing kids to do things is so completely unsatisfying for everyone, but I would insist on them doing something, or they clean the house those same hours.
posted by waving at 8:09 AM on February 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not going to address whether you should do this or not, because there are already really strong feelings about it. I'm going to try to give constructive advice on how to do this because that is what you asked for.
Never criticize or push your child to perform better, or give them an idea that they can fail at it. Treat it like breathing. If they are struggling they need some compassion, and to change what they are doing; If they don't change what they are doing themself instinctively, then you can change what all of you are doing so that they don't keep doing what isn't working. This is on par with getting them to slow down when they are out of breath, bringing them inside when the brutally cold air is making them bark, or taking them to a doctor to be checked for asthma. It isn't about telling them to tilt their head back, seal their lips and breathe through their nose, or coaching them on their technique in any way.
Make time spent with parents deeply desirable positive times and the best times with parents be tennis. Scale the play to what they can do, with what they can do being the centre, and adjunct to what you can do. So if they are very little and can't hit a ball you send the ball to their racquet so they can't miss, patiently for hours while they scramble around happily, as opposed to letting them be your ball boy/girl. They may think being ball boy/girl is a privilege the first time, but pretty soon they will see it as a chore and you as a jerk.
Spend hours playing with them so that they are having masses of fun and are not challenged. Plan to enjoy your kids' company NOT the tennis you are playing with them. If you are not willing to spend hours swatting balls at them and laughing and scrambling to retrieve balls that they send in the entirely wrong direction and enjoying the scramble, then you should expect them to not be willing to spend hours at it either. If you resent spending kid level playing time with them, then you can expect them to resent it too and to start resisting and not trying. They will be miserable that you are making them be there.
When very small, play for a few minutes at most, stopping before they get bored. Only increase the amount of play with the increase in their attention span. Ideally they should finish a session when you end it because you have noticed they are getting tired, or getting a trifle distracted. Don't tell them it was because they were losing focus though, tell them that it is time for Daddy to practice his overhand serve now. This will ensure that they are fresh and eager to go back to it again next time.
Find them peers that they like who also play tennis. Ideally you want to find several families with kids who also play tennis with their kids and hang out.
Don't give them a lot of positive reinforcement for improving. You don't want them playing tennis for your approval, you want them playing tennis because they got that angle right and they are sure they can do it again. You can point out to them that practice is paying off, or that they are ready to try a new move, but "I'm really proud of you for practicing so hard!" is a non-starter. The latter will make them feel that you are not proud of them if they don't practice hard. You aren't proud of your kids for breathing. You don't need to be proud of them for growing, developing and getting physical proficiency. That's what you are glad of and expect, but they are in no way failing you if they fail to breathe right, or fail to grow tall, or fail to be anything but clumsy, clueless or slow.
Do NOT link your approval and affection and support to tennis. Tennis is what your family does because it is fun. Approval, affection and support goes across the board to all members of the family for everything. The kid that is good at tennis and wants to come out and practice with you when they are thirteen does not get more approval, affection and support, especially of money and time, than the one who decides they aren't going to spend every Saturday at the court anymore.
For several years playing tennis should be kid level fun, while discussions of tennis technique should be general and include the parents and other players. You want the kid to hear lots of talk about what people are doing and why and how so that they absorb your discussion of how you are changing the way you hold your elbow, and how someone else's hit was timed so they start to think that way about their own tennis performance. These discussions should never be emotionally loaded. Frustration at your own tennis, or sneering at someone else's, is the wrong way to go. Lots of small amounts of objective analysis is good, including "I've been holding my elbow too high, so I am practicing holding it lower. So far it just keeps coming up automatically. So I figure I'll slow down my play for the next few weeks so I can really concentrate on lowering my elbow..."
Find them playing partners at their own level or lower so that they get exposed to the concept that it is absolutely fine to suck at tennis, and that still not very good tennis players are desirable people because they provide you with another opportunity to play. You really don't want them feeling inadequate compared to their parents, and you really don't want them feeling like they are the only person who are still bad at tennis and that it will require a lot of work to reach a decent standard and that they are no good until then.
Once they are interested in getting better and talking about what they are doing in order to get better you can find them tennis instructors. If you delegate their lessons to tennis instructors from the very beginning you will be giving up the opportunity to shape their experience. At the very least play as much tennis with the kids as they do with an instructor, and sit through the instruction so you can make sure that they are actually having fun and enjoying and benefiting from the instruction. Don't rely on what the tennis instructor tells you is happening. Both be there to observe and listen to what your kid tells you. The tennis instructors impressions of what is happening comes third after your kid's impression (first) and your own (second).
Teach them to LOVE tennis because tennis is great and there is nothing better than a morning playing with different partners.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:21 AM on February 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
Never criticize or push your child to perform better, or give them an idea that they can fail at it. Treat it like breathing. If they are struggling they need some compassion, and to change what they are doing; If they don't change what they are doing themself instinctively, then you can change what all of you are doing so that they don't keep doing what isn't working. This is on par with getting them to slow down when they are out of breath, bringing them inside when the brutally cold air is making them bark, or taking them to a doctor to be checked for asthma. It isn't about telling them to tilt their head back, seal their lips and breathe through their nose, or coaching them on their technique in any way.
Make time spent with parents deeply desirable positive times and the best times with parents be tennis. Scale the play to what they can do, with what they can do being the centre, and adjunct to what you can do. So if they are very little and can't hit a ball you send the ball to their racquet so they can't miss, patiently for hours while they scramble around happily, as opposed to letting them be your ball boy/girl. They may think being ball boy/girl is a privilege the first time, but pretty soon they will see it as a chore and you as a jerk.
Spend hours playing with them so that they are having masses of fun and are not challenged. Plan to enjoy your kids' company NOT the tennis you are playing with them. If you are not willing to spend hours swatting balls at them and laughing and scrambling to retrieve balls that they send in the entirely wrong direction and enjoying the scramble, then you should expect them to not be willing to spend hours at it either. If you resent spending kid level playing time with them, then you can expect them to resent it too and to start resisting and not trying. They will be miserable that you are making them be there.
When very small, play for a few minutes at most, stopping before they get bored. Only increase the amount of play with the increase in their attention span. Ideally they should finish a session when you end it because you have noticed they are getting tired, or getting a trifle distracted. Don't tell them it was because they were losing focus though, tell them that it is time for Daddy to practice his overhand serve now. This will ensure that they are fresh and eager to go back to it again next time.
Find them peers that they like who also play tennis. Ideally you want to find several families with kids who also play tennis with their kids and hang out.
Don't give them a lot of positive reinforcement for improving. You don't want them playing tennis for your approval, you want them playing tennis because they got that angle right and they are sure they can do it again. You can point out to them that practice is paying off, or that they are ready to try a new move, but "I'm really proud of you for practicing so hard!" is a non-starter. The latter will make them feel that you are not proud of them if they don't practice hard. You aren't proud of your kids for breathing. You don't need to be proud of them for growing, developing and getting physical proficiency. That's what you are glad of and expect, but they are in no way failing you if they fail to breathe right, or fail to grow tall, or fail to be anything but clumsy, clueless or slow.
Do NOT link your approval and affection and support to tennis. Tennis is what your family does because it is fun. Approval, affection and support goes across the board to all members of the family for everything. The kid that is good at tennis and wants to come out and practice with you when they are thirteen does not get more approval, affection and support, especially of money and time, than the one who decides they aren't going to spend every Saturday at the court anymore.
For several years playing tennis should be kid level fun, while discussions of tennis technique should be general and include the parents and other players. You want the kid to hear lots of talk about what people are doing and why and how so that they absorb your discussion of how you are changing the way you hold your elbow, and how someone else's hit was timed so they start to think that way about their own tennis performance. These discussions should never be emotionally loaded. Frustration at your own tennis, or sneering at someone else's, is the wrong way to go. Lots of small amounts of objective analysis is good, including "I've been holding my elbow too high, so I am practicing holding it lower. So far it just keeps coming up automatically. So I figure I'll slow down my play for the next few weeks so I can really concentrate on lowering my elbow..."
Find them playing partners at their own level or lower so that they get exposed to the concept that it is absolutely fine to suck at tennis, and that still not very good tennis players are desirable people because they provide you with another opportunity to play. You really don't want them feeling inadequate compared to their parents, and you really don't want them feeling like they are the only person who are still bad at tennis and that it will require a lot of work to reach a decent standard and that they are no good until then.
Once they are interested in getting better and talking about what they are doing in order to get better you can find them tennis instructors. If you delegate their lessons to tennis instructors from the very beginning you will be giving up the opportunity to shape their experience. At the very least play as much tennis with the kids as they do with an instructor, and sit through the instruction so you can make sure that they are actually having fun and enjoying and benefiting from the instruction. Don't rely on what the tennis instructor tells you is happening. Both be there to observe and listen to what your kid tells you. The tennis instructors impressions of what is happening comes third after your kid's impression (first) and your own (second).
Teach them to LOVE tennis because tennis is great and there is nothing better than a morning playing with different partners.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:21 AM on February 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
My experience has been that the best way to build up a resentment of a thing and of you is to force someone to participate in something they're not interested in. I would strongly reconsider the non-negotiable status of tennis. Invite them, help them develop their own interest if it's there but do not force them.
posted by Aleyn at 12:51 PM on February 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Aleyn at 12:51 PM on February 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Some kids don't ever fit in with their families and don't ever thrive in compulsory family activities, and those kids often feel terrible about it. Lyn Never's comment made me feel seen, in my experience as a fat, pale, shy, sad, book reading kid growing up with a tanned white athletic loud family. I wished I was different and hated myself throughout my childhood, and never realized how much my intolerance of the noise and harsh sun and groups of people and other sensory inputs of sports was not even my fault, it is just how I am. Don't think your family has to be a certain way - kids pick up on that and it causes damage.
posted by lizard music at 3:22 PM on February 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by lizard music at 3:22 PM on February 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
My kids are 14 and 11. One of my kids is the more flaky child who only does things they like, and frequently changes their mind. My other child is extremely committed - knows what they want and sticks with it. But for both of them if they want to quit an important activity tomorrow, all of a sudden, my approach would be the same.
1. I'd have to have a talk with the kid to understand why. I'd make my best effort to see their POV.
2. Try to work around any specific issues in a collaborative way. "I don't like my coach," okay, let's see if you can switch to a different group. "I'm too tired after school," okay, let's see if you can move to a weekend class. "I just don't feeeeeeeel like it anymore, whine whine whine," okay, how about you temporarily suck it up and we'll see how you feel about it a month from now.
2a. I might try a sneaky campaign of pure parental propaganda. Like Tom Sawyer whitewashing the fence, those sorts of tactics. Kids are very easy to manipulate. Muahaha. Twirl mustache.
3. If we can't find a workaround for their legit issue, or if they still feel whiny after a month or if I can't manipulate them, then, okay, they quit.
That's fine. I may personally believe this activity is irreplaceable and teaches them skills essential for a good life... But I don't think the irreplaceability quotient or "essential for a good life" quotient of ANY extra-curricular activity is meets the threshold of "that's worth forcing them to do it kicking/screaming/miserable/whining against their will."
In general I try to empower the kids to make their own decisions as often as possible. To me, THAT is the "essential for a good life" skill worth teaching at almost any costs.
- Making responsible, thoughtful decisions on their own.
- Learning to trust their own judgment.
- Relating to me as a guide/mentor rather than as an authority.
- Understanding that other people are not the boss of them, and that other people - even adults, even parents - should respect their feelings and above all respect their autonomy.
- If someone is forcing them to do things against their will, that's extremely abnormal! That's not the way their lives should be lived. That's not something they should ever put up with.
Heck, these lessons are fully worth sacrificing school itself, let alone extra curriculars.
posted by MiraK at 6:36 PM on February 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
1. I'd have to have a talk with the kid to understand why. I'd make my best effort to see their POV.
2. Try to work around any specific issues in a collaborative way. "I don't like my coach," okay, let's see if you can switch to a different group. "I'm too tired after school," okay, let's see if you can move to a weekend class. "I just don't feeeeeeeel like it anymore, whine whine whine," okay, how about you temporarily suck it up and we'll see how you feel about it a month from now.
2a. I might try a sneaky campaign of pure parental propaganda. Like Tom Sawyer whitewashing the fence, those sorts of tactics. Kids are very easy to manipulate. Muahaha. Twirl mustache.
3. If we can't find a workaround for their legit issue, or if they still feel whiny after a month or if I can't manipulate them, then, okay, they quit.
That's fine. I may personally believe this activity is irreplaceable and teaches them skills essential for a good life... But I don't think the irreplaceability quotient or "essential for a good life" quotient of ANY extra-curricular activity is meets the threshold of "that's worth forcing them to do it kicking/screaming/miserable/whining against their will."
In general I try to empower the kids to make their own decisions as often as possible. To me, THAT is the "essential for a good life" skill worth teaching at almost any costs.
- Making responsible, thoughtful decisions on their own.
- Learning to trust their own judgment.
- Relating to me as a guide/mentor rather than as an authority.
- Understanding that other people are not the boss of them, and that other people - even adults, even parents - should respect their feelings and above all respect their autonomy.
- If someone is forcing them to do things against their will, that's extremely abnormal! That's not the way their lives should be lived. That's not something they should ever put up with.
Heck, these lessons are fully worth sacrificing school itself, let alone extra curriculars.
posted by MiraK at 6:36 PM on February 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
Take a look at how tennis camps for kids make it fun. When I was a kid it was mostly repetition, chances are there are quick games/variations that build a skill while appealing more to kids. Realize that how you came to enjoy tennis might not work the same way as you at their age, Siblings give each other support, which is something you want in their lifetime relationship. Mix it up a little. Do any of the kids friends families play tennis? See if one kid would like to go to a tennis activity with the friend to try it out in a different context. Do they have an older cousin that likes tennis, bring them to a family tennis outing. Just floating some balloons here.
posted by childofTethys at 9:32 PM on February 2, 2023
posted by childofTethys at 9:32 PM on February 2, 2023
Making kids learn an activity because it's important to the parent is pretty narcissistic.
Our kids are on this planet to be who they are, not to be who we want them to be.
I say that as someone who really wishes my kid enjoyed yoga so we could do it together more. And as a parent who got special help adding my son to an extracurricular he wanted to do after the deadline, only to have my son tell me he no longer wants to do it because he's not as competent at baseline as he thought. I spent about a week deciding whether to push it. Life's too short and our kids are under a lot of pressure already so I decided to let it go. I am in the same class as the parents that do intensive parenting and fill their kids' schedules with activities (I think?) But if I'm exhausted by all of that I can only imagine how exhausting it is for a little person.
I think not budging on this will cause resentment in your children. But if you insist: Explain the rationale. If they don't want to after that then offer a trade rather than a bribe maybe. Do this thing you don't want to do and then I'll do the thing I don't want to do either.
posted by crunchy potato at 9:02 AM on February 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Our kids are on this planet to be who they are, not to be who we want them to be.
I say that as someone who really wishes my kid enjoyed yoga so we could do it together more. And as a parent who got special help adding my son to an extracurricular he wanted to do after the deadline, only to have my son tell me he no longer wants to do it because he's not as competent at baseline as he thought. I spent about a week deciding whether to push it. Life's too short and our kids are under a lot of pressure already so I decided to let it go. I am in the same class as the parents that do intensive parenting and fill their kids' schedules with activities (I think?) But if I'm exhausted by all of that I can only imagine how exhausting it is for a little person.
I think not budging on this will cause resentment in your children. But if you insist: Explain the rationale. If they don't want to after that then offer a trade rather than a bribe maybe. Do this thing you don't want to do and then I'll do the thing I don't want to do either.
posted by crunchy potato at 9:02 AM on February 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
If you're talking about having fun, you can go out with a kid and just let them enjoy running around trying to hit the ball over the net. Just fun, no pressure.
Are you wanting him to have fun, or are you demanding that he learn the sport so he can compete with you? That way you're having all the fun. You're requiring that he memorize the rules, learn the stance, drill his serve, attempt to be the best, because if he doesn't work at it, he won't win. It's pretty obvious you expect him to do it right.
Family time is important. Go out together,, let him wack a few balls for you while you warm up, let him hang out while you play. Go for ice cream after. Maybe he'll get into it little by little. Then you might offer lessons. Or maybe he just wants to spectate or read a book while you play.
It's 'family fun' only if everybody involved enjoys it. Quit conscripting him.
I'm getting vibes that this isn't just about family fun time. Feels like there's social pressure for him to be seen hanging with the right crowd at the country club, developing contacts, networking.... maybe he feels like there's more to your expectations of him then just learning tennis?
posted by BlueHorse at 1:45 PM on February 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Are you wanting him to have fun, or are you demanding that he learn the sport so he can compete with you? That way you're having all the fun. You're requiring that he memorize the rules, learn the stance, drill his serve, attempt to be the best, because if he doesn't work at it, he won't win. It's pretty obvious you expect him to do it right.
Family time is important. Go out together,, let him wack a few balls for you while you warm up, let him hang out while you play. Go for ice cream after. Maybe he'll get into it little by little. Then you might offer lessons. Or maybe he just wants to spectate or read a book while you play.
It's 'family fun' only if everybody involved enjoys it. Quit conscripting him.
I'm getting vibes that this isn't just about family fun time. Feels like there's social pressure for him to be seen hanging with the right crowd at the country club, developing contacts, networking.... maybe he feels like there's more to your expectations of him then just learning tennis?
posted by BlueHorse at 1:45 PM on February 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's possible that consuming tennis-related media as a family might make tennis more appealing? For instance, there are books and anime. (Obviously you will need to prescreen media for suitability purposes).
posted by oceano at 1:15 AM on February 5, 2023
posted by oceano at 1:15 AM on February 5, 2023
Washington Post: My child wants to quit piano lessons. Do I let her?
I can virtually guarantee that almost every parent who is reading this is nodding along. Playing piano, participating in soccer, drawing, swimming, you name it: Many children reach a point where what they started doing as toddlers no longer brings them joy. Serious avoidance, negotiations and tantrums ensue, creating total misery in the house and between the parent and child. Not to mention the waste of money and time.posted by jenfullmoon at 8:40 AM on February 15, 2023
What are you to do? It is clear that your daughter is fairly miserable, and she is letting you know that piano is no longer her passion. I know many children who are reluctant to begin lessons, but once they start, they enjoy their time. This appears to not be the case with your daughter.
But before you quit piano altogether, I am wondering whether your daughter can choose a new practice schedule that works with her goals and her life. Have a meeting and truly listen to her needs, and see whether there is a compromise that can make both of you happy. If your daughter has become too miserable, suggest a “break” from the instrument, and choose a month to revisit how she feels about it. Maybe some time off will let some pressure off, and your daughter may return to it.
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by obliterati at 4:51 PM on February 1, 2023 [2 favorites]