Does my friend have the right to complain?

January 18, 2023 12:38 PM

My friend is in their early forties and is constantly complaining about how little money they have and that they are behind in paying student loans and all kinds of bills. This person graduated from university a few years ago due to personal issues and feels behind in life.

Yet, they refuse to work minimum wage, which I imagine, would help pay off their student loans from their undergraduate studies and other bills. They run their house as an air B an B and tutor students on the side but they are still sinking in debt and renovations. What kind of gentle advice would you offer this friend? I do not want them to stress about debt and bills, but I feel they are too stubborn at the same time.

posted by RearWindow to Work & Money (27 answers total)

Have they asked for my advice in this scenario? If not, I would start by asking if they *want* advice or just venting and support.

If they did specifically want advice, I suppose I would ask what their specific concerns are about the kinds of jobs they’re deciding not to go for, and to try to help them brainstorm ways to overcome those obstacles or find other jobs that wouldn’t have the same issues, or build up their tutoring business. I might also suggest they hold off on renovations, but that would really depend on whether the renovations are necessary to keep renting out the house.

If they did not want advice, and I did not feel I could listen to the complaints any more, I would tell them I’d like to spend less time as the venting sound board, and work harder in actively changing subjects.
posted by Stacey at 1:00 PM on January 18, 2023 [11 favorites]

Do they have the right to complain? Sure! That doesn’t mean they have to complain to you, or that you have to listen to it though
posted by raccoon409 at 1:09 PM on January 18, 2023 [37 favorites]

Your friend’s problems are not yours to solve. Sometimes people just want to vent. If I complain about something to a friend I’m not expecting them to come with solutions. If their complaints make you uncomfortable you should let them know that.
posted by vanitas at 1:12 PM on January 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

Everyone has the right to complain about anything, even if they, themselves, are the cause of that (I totally complained that I had procrastinated, not hung out my washing on a hot day, and now the cool change had arrived.) "Argh this sucks" is an expression of how it feels, not apportioning blame.

Of course, everyone also has the right to decline participation in that complaints process, Stacey has some good tips there.
posted by freethefeet at 1:12 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

The point around you not having to listen has been made. What happens if you make complaining less rewarding? Instead of commiserating or giving them space to rant you say 'that sounds difficult' and change the topic..every time. If they insist on reverting to their topic after a couple of re-directions, you need to run off to do things other than listen to them.
posted by koahiatamadl at 1:15 PM on January 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

Everyone has the right to complain; and I agree that your friend seems to be making poor financial choices... which is also their right.

But you have rights too, including the right to not listen to a litany of complaints you find boring or annoying!

You can change the subject, or avoid them, or give them some honest advice. You could ask if they want advice, I guess, but frankly after I listen to endless nonconsensual venting, I feel that giving unsolicited advice is a reasonable response.

I find that the kind of feedback I give can actually shape and reinforce the kind of convos I want to have. If I just listen to venting without much response, I find people see me as a "venting sounding board", which I find exhausting and boring.

My preference is to be honest with my opinions and insights, as well as kind and constructive about the solveability of their problems (encouraging but not dismissive or toxically positive). I enjoy troubleshooting and giving advice, so it makes the convo way more fun for me. I try to redirect venting to thoughtful, invested, fairly healthy planning, to actually solve the problem, not marinate in it.

This means I'm not that fun to vent to - if someone wants to go on and on, they'll be annoyed at my questions and eventual suggestions - but it means I'm quite fun to solve problems with.

So now people come to me not when they want to vent, but when they want to change a pattern and are looking for motivation or advice. Those convos are what I'm better at anyway, and they're also much more interesting and rewarding to me, so we all win.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:16 PM on January 18, 2023 [9 favorites]

Serious question: do you know how cash the Airbnb and tutoring bring in for this person? Because minimum wage is... not much. If they're renting the house two nights a week for $200/night, and tutoring four kids an hour each per week for $50/hour, over fifty weeks in a year, that's as much as you'd make working full time for minimum wage, and with significantly less time and effort. And if they're doing these renovations themselves (which, if they're not working a "real" job, they should be), that time and effort *is* being used by something else.

Working for minimum wage is a short-term strategy. They'll only be able to make minimal payments on debt, and depending on interest rates, they might only be paying off interest, not principal. Building equity in a house through renovation is a longer-term strategy that won't pay off until the renovations are done. What that means is that, in the short term, they're going to feel some pain, but over the long term, they're probably going to be better off than if they'd just gotten a minimum wage job. Renovating the house is essentially their job; it just doesn't have a regular paycheck.

So if you want to offer your friend advice, remind them that they've chosen to follow a path of delayed gratification. They'll need to be patient, but it should pay off in the long run. (Unless your friend isn't doing the renovations themselves. Although if they hired a contractor with no income and significant pre-existing debt, well, that's just stupid.)
posted by kevinbelt at 1:45 PM on January 18, 2023 [28 favorites]

There are awesome consultants out there that can help you spiff up your airbandb listing, photos and staging to get more trade/hike your rates. (I wouldn’t work a minimum wage job either, due to disabilities. Maybe your friend is in the same boat? Anyway, advice of hiring an airbandb consultant or simply finding a great community of hosts that is willing to help is a likely helpful suggestion.)
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 1:48 PM on January 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

Hi, I am your friend, 40 but with a decent job making low six figures but still feel like I'm super far behind bc I didn't get a solid career going until I was in my 30s. I'm terminally single, and have no financial support other than what I myself can conjure up, and have student loans and credit card debt from when I was making much less money. I'm pretty frugal and don't live beyond my means and save/pay down debt aggressively. And I'm freaked out as fuck about my future. It is basically 90% of my anxiety, bc it really feels like no matter what I do (short of making a TON more money, which sure, easy peasy), I'll never be able to retire comfortably and will likely be unable to weather a financial catastrophe (medical, extended unemployment) without destroying what little I've built.

I find myself having to explain why I can't do things my more well-off friends do bc it's just not financially responsible for me. At the same time, sometimes I just need a vacation or a fancy dinner so it feels like I'm fucking LIVING. So what may look irresponsible or frivolous may actually be the only bit of joy or whatever that they have going on.

I vent to my friends often bc it's literally what's on my mind a lot of the time. I know they are tired of it (one of my more...direct...friends said as much) I appreciate a distraction bc most people's advice doesn't really apply to my situation, and I'm similarly stubborn AF and have to do it MY WAY.

Pivoting away from the conversation/changing the subject after a 'ugh yeah that fucking sucks, sorry you're struggling, let me know if I can ever help you with resume writing/a referral/advice etc". But also realize that maybe it's her way of letting you know that she's just not able to participate in life in the same ways that you do, and she's maybe just looking for a little extra understanding.
posted by greta simone at 2:00 PM on January 18, 2023 [19 favorites]

Apologies for gendering your friend, I was thinking of myself female self in this position, hence the chosen pronoun.
posted by greta simone at 2:17 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

Your friend has the right to complain.

Don't give advice unless someone is asking for advice, especially when it is not great advice. Minimum wage jobs pay shit and do not help with paying off debt.

If you're tired of their complaints, then redirect the conversation.
posted by betweenthebars at 2:21 PM on January 18, 2023 [14 favorites]

Everyone is fighting their own hardest battle. Whether or not they have the "right" to complain, their discomfort is real and they feel the need to talk about it.

As others have said that doesn't mean you have to listen, but her emotions are real one way or another.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:02 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

A different approach might be "OK, so how can I help?" Think of a couple of things in advance that you might suggest if they seem to want your opinion. You don't have to be critical of your friend, just someone who can offer a couple of practical suggestions. Could you help them to set up a spreadsheet for budgeting and recordkeeping? Or help connect them with some opportunities for better-paying work? It obviously depends on how much you value this friend, and on how good you are at communicating in a way that doesn't cause friction. I think sometimes confronting a complaint in a kind of "OK. Well, what are we going to do about it?" way does a lot to head off further complaints, as you're implicitly saying "I'll help you if you want help, but I'm damned if I'm going to just nod and sigh while you tell me your woes".
posted by pipeski at 3:13 PM on January 18, 2023

I have typed out and deleted a couple of responses, so hopefully this is a little less harsh, but, here we go:
I, like your friend, have a 4 year university degree and a small mountain of debt. I do have a job, but it certainly pays considerably less than six figures. I used to think of myself as being poor but OK. The last five years have changed that, as I now both make more money than I ever have before AND am much more firmly in the desperately poor category. And I am the rich one among my close relations, several of whom also have four year degrees or even a Masters! Hi there, we're the poor. We get to complain.

It's really not entirely our fault that we are poor and being poor really sucks.

We get that you do not want to see us, do not want to hear about our situation and think we could be in a vastly better situation if only we had tugged on our bootstraps harder. You're right! Systemic inequities in an increasingly unforgiving late stage capitalist hellscape are certainly avoidable if only our morals / practicality / work ethic / idk, sneakers? were Better. We certainly wouldn't want you to feel uncomfortable if confronted by the reality that a minimum wage job will do exactly nothing to pay down debt, to pay rent, to pay our many outstanding bills. It would be terrible for you to hear that poverty is not actually attributable to individual moral failings. /sarcasm

Your friend actually sounds like they are more together than many people who are desperately trying to figure out how to both pay the electric bill and the ever increasing interest on the debts. Those people may also want to get the house fixed before it collapses around them, go figure. Now, there are circumstances where people need to just go get a damn minimum wage job, but it does not sound like your friend, who has other income streams, is there.

I get that a constant stream of complaints is uncomfortable to listen to. Other people have given you some good ideas for gently changing the subject. I would like to urge you to be more empathetic than your question sounds. Poverty really, absolutely, genuinely sucks. It is not easy to be running a constant balance sheet in your head. If you want to offer them better advice, keep an eye out for jobs in your field - which presumably pays more than minimum wage - and pass them along. Write a letter of recommendation. Pitch in to help out with the house. Take them out for a meal once in a while and mean it when you say the check is on you.
posted by mygothlaundry at 3:21 PM on January 18, 2023 [38 favorites]

Respectfully, people who are convinced that their friends need their advice are often the least qualified to give it. That's because the certainty that other people are making bad choices often comes from a place of ignorance or immaturity.

Obviously, sometimes people do make bad choices, but it can be very difficult to tell from the outside. Maybe they should just take a minimum wage job, but maybe they shouldn't; minimum wage jobs don't pay a livable wage and also cost in time and energy you might be putting toward other things. Plus, and I hate that this is true, but having a minimum wage job in your work history at that age can be a black mark when job hunting later. If they can hold out until they find a better opportunity that might be a smarter long term strategy.

But notice how I'm saying things like "maybe" and "might" - because I don't know their situation that well, and I'm betting that you don't, either. You just say they "refuse" to take a minimum wage job, but you don't say why.

All of this is to say: Keep your advice to yourself unless they ask for it. If their complaining bothers you, tell them gently that you'd like to talk about something else, but don't say "I don't like your complaining because your situation is your fault" or even hint at that, even though that seems to be what you really think. Maybe money talk gets you down, and you'd like to talk about something else unless they want advice!

They have a right to complain, and a good friend will listen - but does not have to listen endlessly.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 3:23 PM on January 18, 2023 [10 favorites]

I’d give my friend a hug and say “I’m so sorry it’s a struggle right now.” And then maybe change the subject or remind them of how awesome they are. Like, it’s fine to need a break from complaining. But I think your friend actually has two pretty solid income streams already, so they probably will find their way.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:42 PM on January 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

they refuse to work minimum wage, which I imagine

You can imagine all you want, but we already know that even a $15/hr minimum wage won't cover living expenses for millions of Americans. Refusing to take a low-paying job is not necessarily a sign of financial irresponsibility.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:45 PM on January 18, 2023 [30 favorites]

Here’s one of my most deeply held beliefs, which I think applies in this situation; if you see a person who is not doing what seems to you like an obvious course of action in a given situation, assume that they have good reasons.

“Get a job, any job, even if it’s minimum wage” isn’t some deeply held secret that only you know. It’s only the prevailing attitude spread by, I don’t know, every out of touch opinion columnist at multiple papers of record, every meme shared about how “no one wants to work anymore,” etc. Do you believe that your friend hasn’t somehow absorbed this extremely pervasive cultural message?

What it sounds like to me is that you have legitimate annoyance about being your friend’s sounding board so often, and that annoyance is hardening into resentment, which triggers the “they should just work harder” thoughts. When I find myself in this mild annoyance to bitch eating crackers slide, it’s either a sign that I need to disengage from the person who’s triggering it, or a sign that the triggering person reminds me of a part of myself that I dislike and would rather not be reminded of. YMMV.
posted by ActionPopulated at 6:06 PM on January 18, 2023 [16 favorites]

When they complain, ask if they are looking for suggestions or just venting. If they want help, think carefully about the help and suggestions you offer. If they want to vent, let them vent for some reasonable time. Try to spend some time listening hard and empathizing, if you can. You can ask What do you think you could do about X? Offer sympathy; warriorqueen's answer is exactly right.
posted by theora55 at 6:32 PM on January 18, 2023

My question for you: Do you want to maintain this friendship? It sounds like maybe you don't want to, which is understandable because it's annoying to listen to people complain 24/7 and act against their own best interest. If we like someone enough, we can accept their cognitive dissonance just as they accept our quirks and we ask them to stop whining and/or try to be more understanding.

However, if you are losing your patience and respect for this friend -- for any reason, not just serious stuff -- you have the right to end the friendship. You say you feel you've grown apart but genuinely wish them the best! If you no longer respect this friend for their situation and/or decisions -- or any reason at all -- ending the friendship might be the best choice. Empathy is pretty essential for a friendship and it sounds like you've simply run out of it for this person. That's OK: it doesn't mean you're bad or they're bad but simply it is what it is.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:40 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

Does he have "the right to complain"?

When you complain to your friend, you usually aren't saying "I'm objectively less lucky than average! Let's argue about whether how many of my problems are my own fault!"

Usually you're saying "hey, like literally every human life, mine is sometimes frustrating; could you express a little support for me?"
posted by foursentences at 7:48 PM on January 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

Are they “refusing” actual jobs offered, though? Or is it more that they’ve decided a minimum wage job, which is typically a lot of draining work during hours you can’t predict for no benefits and inadequate pay, is not better than their current arrangement?

A minimum wage job is not likely to put a dent in student debt, especially when there are more pressing expenses. Everyone in debt for school has a right to complain IMO. I made more than minimum wage and had five roommates and a comically modest lifestyle, and I still had to defer my loans for a decade.

Also. It’s a common misconception that minimum wage jobs are just…there for the taking. I used to hear “just get a job at Walmart or Starbucks” from Boomers like it was so easy, and it drove me crazy because those were the good jobs in our town, and they only hired people who could afford to be part-time, aka kids who lived with their parents.

Obviously you don’t have to be this person’s sounding board! It is frustrating to hear people complain, especially when we think we know the solution and they aren’t making the changes we think would be optimal.

I think knowing how to change the subject is a lost art. It’s okay to hear them out for a few minutes then pivot to something you’d rather discuss.
posted by kapers at 1:06 AM on January 19, 2023 [8 favorites]

The advice I give in these sorts of situations is simple:

Be a friend, not a management consultant.

In other words, listen, put yourself in their shoes, try to understand their situation and express sympathy. Being broke sucks, and it's not an easy solve. Unless your friend asks for solutions, unsolicited advice is going to feel like criticism.

And, yes, you have the right to draw boundaries, especially if the friendship feels one-sided to you.

Don't treat a friend or family member like you're a management consultant and they're a failing business. In other words, don't parachute in, walk around with a clipboard, rattle off all their flaws, and start lobbing "why don't you just..." easy peasy solutions at them.

In the vast majority of cases, you don't have the experience and knowledge to pull it off (have you been poor? Under a mountain of debt? Why would your friend take a minimum wage job with unpredictable scheduling, and a high chance of fatigue and injury, that would likely interfere with their ability to take on lucrative tutoring clients?).

It's going to feel very condescending, you'll get tuned out, and your friend will slide further into a funk.

(I know I tune out and mistrust the "why don't you just..." suggestions from "management consultants" who fervently believe they can press a button and solve my disabilities, despite an extreme lack of medical qualifications or life experience.)
posted by champers at 3:17 AM on January 19, 2023 [9 favorites]

Getting a minimum wage job can be financially counterproductive in the long run if it leaves you too exhausted to continue hunting for a high-paying professional position.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:41 PM on January 19, 2023 [4 favorites]

Many minimum wage jobs are hard on the body and can cause physical health problems in the short and long term. Add to this transportation costs, having to deal with how to eat at work if meals are involved, and the loss of time at home to take care of things there, it's very likely it's literally not financially worth it for your friend to take a minimum wage job.
posted by augustimagination at 3:27 PM on January 19, 2023 [3 favorites]

Tutoring and Air BnB are both more lucrative than a minimum wage job. Minimum wage jobs are hard and have unpredictable hours. If the boss at Starbucks schedules your friend to work when he has a tutoring client, guess who's getting fired when he picks tutoring over his minimum wage job?
posted by Mavri at 4:41 PM on January 19, 2023 [2 favorites]

As someone who has a looooot of student loan debt, there are also other mathematical factors to consider than a straightforward "working for money" = "paying off loan" attitude. Because that is not necessarily true. For example, if you have federal student loans, are on an income based repayment plan, and your income is small enough (around $21000), your payment every month is literally $0, but those months of paying $0 will count toward the total repayment months necessary for the loan. However, if you start making just slightly more money, i.e. in a shitty minimum wage job that sucks up all of your time, looks questionable on a CV, and may have negative health effects, you will be told to pay more every month, but the "more" may still not even cover your interest payments. If their student loan interest is accruing more quickly than they are paying a month (which is very easy, even if they put a significant amount of minimum wage earning into it and not just the required payment), they would not be making a dent in their loan with this strategy. It is growing faster than they are paying. They are getting the exact same number of months counted toward "pay-off" that they would have paying zero. They will still be paying for 20 or 25 years, but they will have paid in more money and worked for more hours.

tldr; In addition to everything everyone else has mentioned, making more money can mean paying more over the lifetime of the loan than making less money. You have to be making enough money to make payments significantly higher than the interest accruing for it to really matter for income based repayment, because otherwise, you can wait it out and the loan can be forgiven eventually, at "payments" of $0. So it would not just be unasked for advice, but possibly also not good financial advice. Also, if your friend is in/will be in a field with public service loan forgiveness options, that "wait it out" span is only ten years.

But it is hard to listen to people constantly complain about the same thing. I think other people spoke more eloquently to solutions for that than I would. I just very definitely would not offer what may likely be poor financial advice on top of that. I would be livid from the sheer ignorance and patronizing attitude of the statement if someone had "gently" said that to me back when I was struggling. I'm reasonably certain your friend knows fast food jobs exist, and unless they are exceedingly bad at math, they can do some calculations on whether they will *actually* make more money and pay off more loans that way, or if they will just have a lower quality of life for no reason. If they genuinely seem to be looking for advice, however, you could point them to studentaid.gov and check out the calculators and repayment options with them (if they have federal loans - I'm not as up on all of the financial strategies for private loans, though I know there are some).
posted by wending my way at 11:37 PM on January 19, 2023 [7 favorites]