How to plan 5K USD trip to Europe

December 16, 2022 7:52 AM

Two buddies want to fly from San Francisco to Europe summer 2023 for three weeks. Problem: 1. They have about 5,000 USD each to cover flights and travel and 2. They want to visit London, Rome, Venice, Paris, and maybe Amsterdam. Is that even possible with that budget?

Trying to plan the trip seems pretty overwhelming. This many be the first and only trip to Europe they can manager. They are middle-aged, somewhat sedentary, and want to see the most famous sights. I have no idea how to help, which is why I am turning to the hive mind for advice. Thanks for any suggestions, including vacation packages that let you customise your itinerary, or other approaches to help reduce costs when they are traveling during the high season. Thanks!

posted by Bella Donna to Travel & Transportation (17 answers total)

So, with the way airline ticket prices have been lately, I would expect even a coach flight from the West Coast in high season to run ~$1500 pp, especially if you need an open-jaw ticket. That leaves $3500 pp for three weeks, or ~$1200 pp per week, or less than $200/day, for everything else, including ground transport between the four cities. This could probably be done on a broke young person budget--barebones hotels, walking or taking public transit everywhere, eating from supermarkets rather than restaurants, the el cheapoest bus or train to get from city to city. I think a sedentary middle-aged couple on their first trip to Europe might find it less than comfortable. The exchange rate is more in their favor now than it's been in a long time, but will it be in six months? Who knows.

Basically, they're going to have to be very realistic with themselves about what will be fun for them over three weeks (probably enough time for the thrill of roughing it to give way to middle-aged achy bones). My recommendation would be to drop at least one of these cities, probably Venice. And when in London, book well in advance (like, now) for a place like the Jesmond Hotel, which is barebones but clean and includes a full English breakfast that's yummy if your tastes run that way. Realistically, they should probably cut back to two weeks and three cities (*), but I hate to step on the enthusiasm. Europe is so much fun!

(*) The longest intercity trip and worst travel expense is the Italy leg--it requires you to go from northern to southern Europe. So if famous works of art are included among the sights they'd like to see, I would do five days in London, the weekend in Amsterdam, and then five days in Paris, looping back to London for the return flight. If this is their first time, there will be plenty to keep them busy that whole time. But I do understand not wanting to give up on the dream of Italy, too.
posted by praemunire at 8:19 AM on December 16, 2022 [7 favorites]

If they can travel in May/June or from end of August onwards that will get them out of the peak, peak season. It is also most likely a bit less hot and easier to travel around these cities. This last summer has demonstrated that most of Europe gets much hotter than it used to and is not set up to deal with the heat. And the people who live in Rome have always tried to get out of Rome in August....so there is that.

Your friends should talk to an actual travel agent. This strikes me as the kind of trip where a travel agent could add a lot of value. Especially if they simply want to hit the highlights. A lot of that can be achieved by one or more tours, stitched together, and judicious choice of flights, possibly flying into one city and home from another. So I'd start there. At least in my experience, it is difficult to match the price of a tour with independent travel without investing endless hrs in research and booking. I imagine middle aged people have other things to do with their time.
posted by koahiatamadl at 8:20 AM on December 16, 2022 [11 favorites]

If someone can coach them into the credit card mileage game, that will likely get at least one flight out of the way.
posted by sandmanwv at 8:33 AM on December 16, 2022 [3 favorites]

Google Flights is a very useful tool for planning a trip that is somewhat flexible and budget conscious. I would just start playing around with putting in a range of dates and running it with multiple cities (this is a little tricky, but if you type in the airport code, it should allow you to put in a few different options).

Here's a quick example.

Then click on the date grid and play around with different dates and trip lengths to figure out the cheapest options.
posted by geegollygosh at 8:34 AM on December 16, 2022 [1 favorite]

I'd recommend looking into an established tour company that has better access to airfares, hotels, and transport on the ground. I saw Australia + New Zealand this way and while it felt kind of fuddy-duddy to get on and off a bus multiple times in a day, it was a really easy way to get to the key sights in comfort and not stress about rental cars and checkin times.

Globus is the company I used and it looks like they have a European Itinerary (with a stop in London) that might be within the budget and scope of what your friends want to do.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:35 AM on December 16, 2022 [4 favorites]

Scott's cheap flights has had flights to various european cities for as low as 500 pp in the past few months. if you're flexible, you could use that as a resource to snipe cheaper seats, but it takes a bit of vigilance because some of the deals only last a day.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:39 AM on December 16, 2022 [2 favorites]

So, with the way airline ticket prices have been lately, I would expect even a coach flight from the West Coast in high season to run ~$1500 pp, especially if you need an open-jaw ticket.

I actually think that's a bit of a pessimistic estimate, especially if they're fairly flexible in terms of dates and are potentially booking far in advance (although tbh you don't necessarily have to book far ahead of time to get good prices, it's just that there are likely to be more options).

Will they be sharing a room? Do they have any frequent flyer miles or travel points, or big enough credit card expenses that opening a miles reward card would make a difference? Are they expecting to stay in, say, standard 3-5 star hotels the entire time, or are they flexible? Are they expecting to eat out in nice restaurants every day, or are they also happy to buy basic cheap groceries and street food for at least part of their meals? Are they comfortable with public transportation?

I'd start exploring: what cities are the cheapest to fly in or out of. (Use the many advanced search options on kayak, Google flights, ita matrix, etc.) How much does it cost to travel to/from the airport. What are the costs for hotels, hostels (there are nice ones!), pensions, airbnbs, etc. in these places. How much do trains cost vs flights vs car rental. What about public transportation costs. How much are tickets to various attractions and events they're interested in. And so on. After they have a sense of these things and a list of price ranges, they can start getting a rough idea of possible itineraries and costs.

One expense to keep in mind is travel insurance, especially travel health insurance. They should make sure to get it from a good, well-reviewed company, and definitely not just buy whatever insurance some booking site happens to have a partnership with.
posted by trig at 9:11 AM on December 16, 2022 [4 favorites]

I doubt any managed tour would come in at that price for a three-week trip to those locations. How comfortable would they be arranging their own travel?

For reference, in 2015, my then-girlfriend and I flew to Rome, spent 3 days there, flew to Dubrovnik, spent 3 days there, took a boat to Hvar for 2 nights, spent a night in Zadar, drove through Croatia and Slovenia for 2 nights, spent 2 nights at Biathlon training center in the Jovian Alps, and took the train to Venice for 3 nights. We stayed in mid-range hotels and some airbnbs and were generally cost-conscious but not frugal. 16 nights total, and the total cost per person excluding flights was $1,700 ($106/person/day).

Inflation is a thing, and the itinerary you outlined included more expensive cities and is longer. So I'd say it's possible to do the trip at this budget, but it depends on their proclivities and expectations. I like this website's calculator for general-but-personalized travel cost estimates.
posted by benbenson at 9:15 AM on December 16, 2022 [1 favorite]

I always think it’s useful to check out a travel company’s tour for their itinerary and use it as a starting point. They might find the provided itinerary overwhelming, or missing something they really want to see, but it helps to start from somewhere rather than “we could do anything.”

Depending on dates (and not including airfare) this 11 day trip with a tour company to London, Paris and Rome would cost about $3000 per person (plus other meals, souvenirs, etc).

Looking at what trip provides might provide insight into how much in a day is reasonable, how to group activities, etc

It sounds like a great trip and I hope they have fun
posted by raccoon409 at 9:23 AM on December 16, 2022 [8 favorites]

I'd look into booking an open jaw trip so that they don't waste time and money coming back to their starting city. $5000 pp is not a lot of money for three weeks, and none of those cities are inexpensive. As another datapoint, my wife and I spent roughly $160 CAD per person per day plus flights for a similar length trip mostly in Spain in 2018; but like benbenson's Croatia trip, Spain is cheaper than your friend's bucket list.

If they can push into the shoulder season, that would help with pricing. Particularly good would be if they could push into September/October. I would recommend inexperienced international travellers starting with more "comfortable" places culturally and pushing into more "difficult" ones; this is starting in London and ending in Rome. But I'd want to be doing this at the end of the summer, so that they aren't going into the hottest places at the hottest time.

The actual planning mechanism is iterative; they've got a broad sense of where and when they want to go, that's great. Throw down a rough schedule in a spreadsheet; just each day, what city do they want to be in; what days are travel days.

Then add costs and times; I'd start looking quickly to get a sense of hotel prices in each city; my rough guide is that meals, incidentals and local public transport cost roughly as much as a shared hotel room, so double it and that's a basic cost without major sights or intercity travel.

Get a rough idea of airfare (SFO-LHR June 5, FCO-SFO June 26th is $1300 pp). Roughly price out and schedule out intercity travel; it's $75 or so for Eurostar London-Paris (and it takes 2.5 hours, which is really half a day once you go to and from the stations), do the same for Paris-Amsterdam, a flight to Venice and the train Venice-Rome.

Price some major sites; the Rijksmuseum, Stedelijk, Van Gogh musems and Anne Frank house are all €20 or so each. Are they going to want to do guided tours or any special excursions? Price those in, too. Now step back and look at what everything costs; is it over the budget? Are they spending too much time in transport? Are there cheaper cities that they'd be interested in instead?

Then refine it again; adjust schedules, look for travel deals, read up more carefully on destinations. Then refine again, and book hotels. Etc.

A great resource for this is Rick Steves. His work (both his online site and guide books) are aimed exactly at moderate-budget middle-aged Americans making their first trip to Europe.
posted by Superilla at 10:44 AM on December 16, 2022 [5 favorites]

I think it's doable. Planning in advance as much as possible helps because you get better rates for set plans.

To start, they will want to watch out for times when good flight prices hit - usually around and just after Christmas time. They can also probably save by planning to fly into and out of the same airport: Paris-Charles-de-Gaulle or Amsterdam-Schipol would be good options. Between Paris, London and Amsterdam, the train is your best bet. I would then take a budget flight (like Ryan Air) to Rome and then take the train to Venice and a budget flight back, though do note that those airlines typically charge for both carry-on and checked luggage. You can save on those by carrying only essentials with you and putting your luggage in a locker at a train station or asking your hotel to store it if you're returning to the same hotel.

You can also save a lot by paying for your hotels in advance on a booking site like Expedia and booking your train trips just after the itineraries get posted will also help them spread the cost out over time as well as staying in slightly less popular areas and in budget hotels. Amsterdam is somewhat cheaper for hotels than Paris or London so would be a good hub city to fly into and out of. It's also easier to get between the airport on public transit and the main central area is much smaller than Paris and London's are.

Food, of course, is cheapest if you buy it yourself and make cheap sandwiches and such and bring stuff to make your own coffees in the hotel rather than buying. Always check to see if breakfast is included, though often it's not really worth it to pay extra for because you can do it for way cheaper. Look at the hotel room information to see if they have fridges, kettles and/or coffee makers.

If it were me, I would do the following itinerary:
1. Fly to Amsterdam - stay in Amsterdam for 5 nights (an extra night to adjust to time zone)
2. Take the Eurostar to London (4h). Stay in London for 4 nights.
3. Take a budget flight to Rome (3h), storing luggage if large to avoid luggage fees. Stay in Rome for 4 nights (near the train station the hotels are usually cheapest).
4. Take the train to Venice (3h 30 on high speed). Stay in Venice for 3 nights.
5. Take a budget flight to London, picking up luggage if stored. Take the Eurostar to Paris (2h 20). Stay in Paris for 4 nights.
6. Take a train to Amsterdam (3h 20). Stay 1 night if necessary for flight times (they usually leave in the afternoon). Fly home.
posted by urbanlenny at 10:51 AM on December 16, 2022 [1 favorite]

That list of cities includes some of the more expensive in Europe for tourists.

I would suggest they pick one or two cities from their dream list and then augment the trip with other stops in less expensive places, smaller towns or cities in countries where their fund will go further. People always tend to overlook Eastern Europe, for instance, but it's much cheaper than say, London. And there is awesome stuff to see in Dubrovnik, Bucureşti, Sofia, etc. There are famous sites in those places, too. And it might be easier for sedentary middle-aged people not to have to hustle from hostel to hostel.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:53 AM on December 16, 2022 [3 favorites]

This isn't directly related to booking a trip but do your buddies have passports, and are they valid through the end of 2023?

Given the increased possibility of a government shutdown in the upcoming year I'd make sure they put in an application or a renewal now if necessary.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:39 AM on December 16, 2022 [6 favorites]

It is definitely doable. Go to any of the flight aggregators (Kayak, Google Flights, etc.) and start setting up flight alerts, so you get notified when the flights drop to your acceptable range. You can definitely get flights for under $1000 each and probably under $700 if you work hard enough at it.

That leaves ~$8000 for a week's trip; that's plenty. Start planning now. Look at cities that have Ryanair, Easyjet, or other budget airlines. Also, look into train deals. Again, start watching all this now because sales/deals pop up throughout the winter.

Hostels, camping, budget hotels, and Couchsurfing (or whatever site is current these days) will help extend your time and money while traveling.

As mentioned earlier, credit card mileage deals are a huge help. Start following The Points Guy or other similar blogs. For example, with Chase Sapphire, you can get ~75,000 points as a sign-up if you hit their spending needs (not hard). 75,000 points will equate to close to $1000 that can be used toward flight tickets.

Also, remember that you can pool resources. One hotel room instead of two. One checked bag instead of two (if needed).

Good luck! Don't be intimidated; it is quite easy once you get into it.
posted by wile e at 11:40 AM on December 16, 2022 [2 favorites]

Here are my tips to add to the otherwise excellent advice above. Europeans, as a rule, tend to have vacation all August, but their summer break is somewhat shorter overall, so June tends to be a bit into shoulder season, more so than August. They could save considerably by traveling in the last two weeks of May, if possible. The weather will almost certainly be nicer, to boot. With the heat waves I would avoid budget accomodation in Europe, which typically lacks air conditioning. Even mid June is pushing it.

I would look for longer tours from organized operator and see what cities they tend to string together. That said, if you book in advance the short haul European airlines are cheaper than trains. The reason for this is that they offer a mostly terrible experience. There are fees for everything from hand luggage (not carry-on, your personal item) to boarding passes, and the airports tend to be at the outskirts of town in the best case. That said, they are almost always the cheapest way to get from Point A to B. Trains don't open for booking as early but you save as much by booking early as you do with planes.

If you eat like a European, you will save a ton of money. They don't call it continental breakfast because you eat it in a Lincoln Continental. Lunch as the main meal of the day, especially at places with a set menu, is by far the cheapest. The house wine will be quite good, typically, and yes, it will probably be the same price as a Coca-Cola. There's no such thing as open container laws, and much more public space, so you can also take a gourmet picnic to a park.

That said, the proposed itinerary sounds exhausting, and I have been extremely lucky to spend several months in Europe. Have they gone on an independent six-city 3-week vacation in the U.S.? It's going to take a lot of planning. The best parts of most European cities are on the street, and you will often save a lot by taking transit instead of taxis, so I would also start walking now.
posted by wnissen at 2:30 PM on December 16, 2022 [6 favorites]

(I recently got into the credit card miles/point game and I would caution against jumping in now in order to get your plane flight- for a hotel stay, sure, but not the plane. The miles/points usually don’t show up until the end of the statement period so that automatically a month after you first sign up you’ll have ANY points and then sign up bonus points can take up to 4 weeks to show up in the state after after you hit the spend minimum which might be another two months for the date you get it, plus whatever time it takes you to normally spend that money but you’ll also want time to book your hotel in advance and that can leave you with a small window. I’m not saying it’s not worth doing at all, just don’t expect to pull it all off on this trip. It may be better to open a card for this trip with the idea that it will help pay off your NEXT trip).
posted by raccoon409 at 3:09 PM on December 16, 2022 [4 favorites]

This isn't quite as big a trip as what your friends are proposing, but I took my daughter for two weeks in Ireland and the UK this summer, and we managed three days based in Dublin, four in Edinburgh, and week in London for $6000 total for both of us, airfare from Houston included.

How we did it for that price:

(1) We got round trip airfare from Houston to Manchester, England for $800. Scott's Cheap Flights alerted us to that deal. I know it doesn't fit your friends' schedule, but just for example: a person flying from San Francisco to Paris next September could buy that ticket for $460 right now. (You might not be able to see that without a SCF membership.)

(2) For about $60 each we flew from Manchester to Dublin on RyanAir. We also flew RyanAir to Edinburgh for about the same price. RyanAir is an extremely budget airline and no one's idea of a good time, but it was fine for a short hop. Right now, they have London to Rome for under $100 next summer.

(3) Hostels/cheap small hotels. We basically had a room big enough for a bed or two, that's it.

(4) We mainly ate from grocery stores. In the UK/Ireland, there's a lunch deal at Tesco Express where you get a sandwich, fruit, and a drink for five pounds. We did that a lot.

(5) Busses, trains, and the Tube. Public transport everywhere. The Google Maps app is incredibly helpful for that. Just punch in your destination and it'll tell you exactly which bus to hop on when and where to change busses. Never led us astray.

(6) Yes, a lot of walking. A lot. Often 5 or 6 miles over the course of a day. The peak day was just under 10 miles. Part of that, though, was because we signed up for quite a few walking tours in the places we stayed.

For someone with more means than we have, none of that would sound like a fun time. But I enjoyed the logistical challenge of getting us from place to place on our small budget so we had money left over for tours and admissions fees and some shows. We saw Hamilton and the Glass Menagerie in London, Richard III in Stratford, and went to any museum/castle/historical site we wanted to and still stayed under $6000 for two weeks--and it was one of the best times of my life. I think $5000 each for the trip your pals are planning is absolutely possible, probably without being quite as spartan as we were.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:05 AM on December 17, 2022 [3 favorites]