Should I send a letter to a friend after a fallout?
November 5, 2022 11:23 PM Subscribe
I had two mutual friends, let’s call them "Richard" and "Carol". I introduced them to each other about five years ago. They fell in love and bought a condo together. Things were going great until they broke up about two years ago. Right now, Richard is tied up in a court case because of an accusation Carol brought upon him, and I’m in the middle. How do I fix this?
Brief backstory:
After buying the condo together, Richard and Carol’s relationship went downhill, and they broke up after an ugly spat. Richard wound up suing Carol for a non-trivial amount of money, and Carol shared with me how dismayed she felt. I felt terrible, but unfortunately, understood both sides and remained neutral. I continued being friends with both, but eventually, Carol stopped engaging with me and ignored me altogether. I continued being close with Richard. He was supportive and there for me. At a party last year, Carol, who was drunk, angrily screamed behind Richard’s back for “stealing my money” to the crowd. She was obviously still angry about the situation, perhaps bitter. I felt terrible, but there wasn't much I could do.
Recently, something criminal-related happened against Carol, and she assumed Richard was the one behind it. I cannot share more details because of the pending court case, but I know (both logically and emotionally) that Richard didn’t do it. Unfortunately, the state brought criminal charges against Richard (the state vs. him, not Carol vs. Richard) following Carol’s accusation. Richard asked me to be a “character witness” for him in court, in which I would say positive things about his character. I agreed to that because I know Richard is a good person, he doesn’t deserve this, and he needed the support from his friends. To clarify, I would only give a testimonial for Richard’s character, and say nothing about, or against, Carol.
The problem:
Carol found out that I was going to be a character witness for Richard. Allegedly, she talked with her best friend, who was hosting a Halloween party that I was invited to, and got me uninvited from the party. Additionally, Carol blocked me on her social media. It really hurt, because of the following reasons:
1) I never said or did anything against Carol. In fact, a few of Richard’s friends were really fired up against her, and I defended her, explaining that she could have had her own reasons for accusing Richard that we don’t know about, and encouraged them to look at the situation from different perspectives. (Carol did not see this exchange.)
2) I miss our friendship, and wished she could have given me a chance to explain my version of the situation, or allow me to remain friends with Richard and remain neutral. If she had, I would have explained I was simply saying positive things about Richard, and that if I was asked to give a testimony against her, I wouldn’t do that.
3) Hey, it sucks being uninvited to a party and being blocked, especially when I didn’t do anything wrong.
I was thinking about writing Carol a letter, explaining that I always valued our friendship and that I was simply being a positive character witness for Richard, and apologizing for any hurt feelings on her end. Would this somehow jeopardize the court case, or risk hurting anything? I want to mend things and help her to understand why I am doing what I am doing, to at least give some closure. Carol can be a very fiery and stubborn person, but I figured an old-fashioned letter might help soften things.
Would this help mend the situation, do you think? It sucks being stuck in the middle (even though for the past two years, I’ve been closer to Richard, but have nothing against Carol). This has been a very ugly situation, and I’m caught in the crossfire. It's hard because I can understand both sides, too. I also feel guilty because I’m the one who introduced them to each other, and they fell in love from there.
Brief backstory:
After buying the condo together, Richard and Carol’s relationship went downhill, and they broke up after an ugly spat. Richard wound up suing Carol for a non-trivial amount of money, and Carol shared with me how dismayed she felt. I felt terrible, but unfortunately, understood both sides and remained neutral. I continued being friends with both, but eventually, Carol stopped engaging with me and ignored me altogether. I continued being close with Richard. He was supportive and there for me. At a party last year, Carol, who was drunk, angrily screamed behind Richard’s back for “stealing my money” to the crowd. She was obviously still angry about the situation, perhaps bitter. I felt terrible, but there wasn't much I could do.
Recently, something criminal-related happened against Carol, and she assumed Richard was the one behind it. I cannot share more details because of the pending court case, but I know (both logically and emotionally) that Richard didn’t do it. Unfortunately, the state brought criminal charges against Richard (the state vs. him, not Carol vs. Richard) following Carol’s accusation. Richard asked me to be a “character witness” for him in court, in which I would say positive things about his character. I agreed to that because I know Richard is a good person, he doesn’t deserve this, and he needed the support from his friends. To clarify, I would only give a testimonial for Richard’s character, and say nothing about, or against, Carol.
The problem:
Carol found out that I was going to be a character witness for Richard. Allegedly, she talked with her best friend, who was hosting a Halloween party that I was invited to, and got me uninvited from the party. Additionally, Carol blocked me on her social media. It really hurt, because of the following reasons:
1) I never said or did anything against Carol. In fact, a few of Richard’s friends were really fired up against her, and I defended her, explaining that she could have had her own reasons for accusing Richard that we don’t know about, and encouraged them to look at the situation from different perspectives. (Carol did not see this exchange.)
2) I miss our friendship, and wished she could have given me a chance to explain my version of the situation, or allow me to remain friends with Richard and remain neutral. If she had, I would have explained I was simply saying positive things about Richard, and that if I was asked to give a testimony against her, I wouldn’t do that.
3) Hey, it sucks being uninvited to a party and being blocked, especially when I didn’t do anything wrong.
I was thinking about writing Carol a letter, explaining that I always valued our friendship and that I was simply being a positive character witness for Richard, and apologizing for any hurt feelings on her end. Would this somehow jeopardize the court case, or risk hurting anything? I want to mend things and help her to understand why I am doing what I am doing, to at least give some closure. Carol can be a very fiery and stubborn person, but I figured an old-fashioned letter might help soften things.
Would this help mend the situation, do you think? It sucks being stuck in the middle (even though for the past two years, I’ve been closer to Richard, but have nothing against Carol). This has been a very ugly situation, and I’m caught in the crossfire. It's hard because I can understand both sides, too. I also feel guilty because I’m the one who introduced them to each other, and they fell in love from there.
I find it hard to get past "something criminal-related happened against Carol". Did you mean she was victim of a crime? Because from other details you provided it doesn't seem that she was charged with / suspected of a crime.
So unless you believe nothing actually happened to her it seems like she must be pretty shaken.
First she was sued by her former live-in boyfriend for a non-trivial amount of money, then something "criminal-related" (?) happened "against her".
I don't think it matters that you introduced them to each other. It's more that they now have an adversarial relationship where she believes she was badly wronged by him.
There's no middle ground where you keep both of them as friends. And doubly so if you are publicly taking a stand for him. That's not staying neutral, that's coming forward on his side.
Maybe that's justified - maybe he's right and she's wrong. But you're not staying neutral cause there's no neutral here any more.
All this to say, I don't think you have anything to gain from writing a letter. Why should she care what your motives were? There's a criminal case and you are testifying against her. You may be justified - no one here can tell - but you don't get to do that and stay friends with her or any of her friends.
posted by M. at 12:37 AM on November 6, 2022 [44 favorites]
So unless you believe nothing actually happened to her it seems like she must be pretty shaken.
First she was sued by her former live-in boyfriend for a non-trivial amount of money, then something "criminal-related" (?) happened "against her".
I don't think it matters that you introduced them to each other. It's more that they now have an adversarial relationship where she believes she was badly wronged by him.
There's no middle ground where you keep both of them as friends. And doubly so if you are publicly taking a stand for him. That's not staying neutral, that's coming forward on his side.
Maybe that's justified - maybe he's right and she's wrong. But you're not staying neutral cause there's no neutral here any more.
All this to say, I don't think you have anything to gain from writing a letter. Why should she care what your motives were? There's a criminal case and you are testifying against her. You may be justified - no one here can tell - but you don't get to do that and stay friends with her or any of her friends.
posted by M. at 12:37 AM on November 6, 2022 [44 favorites]
How do I fix this?
Short answer: You can't.
A lot of what you say is about how you feel, which is fine because you're the one asking the question here, but in the context of the situation your feelings are irrelevant.
It sucks being stuck in the middle
It sounds like it sucks a lot more for Richard and, regardless of who was responsible for the criminality against her, particularly Carol. You writing a letter to her right now and adding pressure to her situation is hardly going to help. Especially when you're providing a character witness for her ex who the police have enough evidence to charge him with committing a crime against her.
I’m caught in the crossfire. It's hard because I can understand both sides, too.
You're looking at this logically, Carol (understandably) is looking at it emotionally. You're not caught in the crossfire between them, you're caught in the cross fire between how you think and how Carol feels (otherwise you'd be getting it from Richard as well, and you're not). She knows a lot more about him and the situation than you do and she might be entirely justified in feeling this way abut you. (In the interests of balance she might not be justified, either, but you can't know either way)
I also feel guilty because I’m the one who introduced them to each other, and they fell in love from there.
You're not responsible for other people falling in love but also, politely, that's a bit self-centred. They've gone through an acrimonious break up, he's suing her, now the police have charged him with a crime against her, and what you're most concerned about is your feelings of guilt about introducing two adults who went on to have an adult relationship? This really, really is not about you in any way.
I know (both logically and emotionally) that Richard didn’t do it. Unfortunately, the state brought criminal charges against Richard
You don't know, unless you were literally with Richard at the time he's accused of doing whatever he was accused of. It's not "unfortunate" that the state bought criminal charges, they generally don't do that without some evidence. That doesn't mean he did it, but you're far too certain about his innocence based on what you're telling us.
I figured an old-fashioned letter might help soften things. Would this help mend the situation, do you think?
No it won't, and no it won't. She's made her choice, it hurts and I feel for you because you've technically done nothing wrong, but you chose your side when you agreed to give him a character reference. As soon as you did that your friendship with her was over. She's got enough on her plate and the kindest thing you can do is let her get on with it.
posted by underclocked at 1:22 AM on November 6, 2022 [38 favorites]
Short answer: You can't.
A lot of what you say is about how you feel, which is fine because you're the one asking the question here, but in the context of the situation your feelings are irrelevant.
It sucks being stuck in the middle
It sounds like it sucks a lot more for Richard and, regardless of who was responsible for the criminality against her, particularly Carol. You writing a letter to her right now and adding pressure to her situation is hardly going to help. Especially when you're providing a character witness for her ex who the police have enough evidence to charge him with committing a crime against her.
I’m caught in the crossfire. It's hard because I can understand both sides, too.
You're looking at this logically, Carol (understandably) is looking at it emotionally. You're not caught in the crossfire between them, you're caught in the cross fire between how you think and how Carol feels (otherwise you'd be getting it from Richard as well, and you're not). She knows a lot more about him and the situation than you do and she might be entirely justified in feeling this way abut you. (In the interests of balance she might not be justified, either, but you can't know either way)
I also feel guilty because I’m the one who introduced them to each other, and they fell in love from there.
You're not responsible for other people falling in love but also, politely, that's a bit self-centred. They've gone through an acrimonious break up, he's suing her, now the police have charged him with a crime against her, and what you're most concerned about is your feelings of guilt about introducing two adults who went on to have an adult relationship? This really, really is not about you in any way.
I know (both logically and emotionally) that Richard didn’t do it. Unfortunately, the state brought criminal charges against Richard
You don't know, unless you were literally with Richard at the time he's accused of doing whatever he was accused of. It's not "unfortunate" that the state bought criminal charges, they generally don't do that without some evidence. That doesn't mean he did it, but you're far too certain about his innocence based on what you're telling us.
I figured an old-fashioned letter might help soften things. Would this help mend the situation, do you think?
No it won't, and no it won't. She's made her choice, it hurts and I feel for you because you've technically done nothing wrong, but you chose your side when you agreed to give him a character reference. As soon as you did that your friendship with her was over. She's got enough on her plate and the kindest thing you can do is let her get on with it.
posted by underclocked at 1:22 AM on November 6, 2022 [38 favorites]
If you were the victim of a crime, you believed your ex had done it, the authorities subsequently found enough evidence against the person to charge them with it, and a friend said, "I know logically and emotionally that your ex didn't do it and I'm going to be a character witness for your ex at the trial because he needs the support," would you really feel that they hadn't chosen a side and hadn't done anything against you?
You have chosen a side here, and the consequence of that is that Carol doesn't want to be friends with you anymore or to have to encounter you at a party. She's having a very difficult time dealing a really shitty sequence of events, her attitude is very understandable, and the last thing she needs is for to you to effectively tell her that she's wrong to not want to be friends with you anymore. Let her be.
And if I were you, I would seriously reconsider your conviction of Richard's innocence. Unless you have some sort of definitive evidence that he didn't do it, you don't "know" that he didn't. You could at least sit in at the trial and hear the evidence for and against before you make up your mind on that score.
posted by orange swan at 2:51 AM on November 6, 2022 [48 favorites]
You have chosen a side here, and the consequence of that is that Carol doesn't want to be friends with you anymore or to have to encounter you at a party. She's having a very difficult time dealing a really shitty sequence of events, her attitude is very understandable, and the last thing she needs is for to you to effectively tell her that she's wrong to not want to be friends with you anymore. Let her be.
And if I were you, I would seriously reconsider your conviction of Richard's innocence. Unless you have some sort of definitive evidence that he didn't do it, you don't "know" that he didn't. You could at least sit in at the trial and hear the evidence for and against before you make up your mind on that score.
posted by orange swan at 2:51 AM on November 6, 2022 [48 favorites]
I think other people are right that it’s going to be hard to remain friends with Carol, but I’ll also add that the nature of the crime in question probably matters here. It’s one thing to be a character witness for someone who’s accused of, like, stealing mail or smashing a car window. It’s another to be one for someone who’s accused of stabbing someone 32 times. If there’s any sort of violence toward Carol involved, of the theft or damage of a non-trivial amount of her money or property, it’s going to be awfully hard for her to ever feel safe around people who had any sort of defense for Richard ever again.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:13 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 4:13 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Did Richard in fact "steal" Carol's money? For example, did Carol put in more than half the down payment or mortgage payments, but then Richard took half the condo's value?
Being a character witness for Richard means being on his side and not being neutral. The truly neutral solution would be to stay out of the court case.
Think about it this way: to stay neutral and balanced, you should be providing as much help to Carol's side of the court case as Richard's. Hypothetically, you should also serve as a witness to testify on Carol's behalf for the prosecutor. But you cannot, because the court forces you to choose one side. You have chosen: Richard's. So then how can you say that you are neutral and didn't choose sides?
posted by cheesecake at 4:31 AM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Being a character witness for Richard means being on his side and not being neutral. The truly neutral solution would be to stay out of the court case.
Think about it this way: to stay neutral and balanced, you should be providing as much help to Carol's side of the court case as Richard's. Hypothetically, you should also serve as a witness to testify on Carol's behalf for the prosecutor. But you cannot, because the court forces you to choose one side. You have chosen: Richard's. So then how can you say that you are neutral and didn't choose sides?
posted by cheesecake at 4:31 AM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Unfortunately I think you’re kidding yourself if you think you’re not taking sides against Carol, by testifying for Richard. You took a side when you agreed to testify to support him in the trial and you’ll unfortunately have to live with Carol’s predictable feelings about that.
Sending the letter would be about trying to ease your feelings, it’s very unlikely to soften Carol’s feelings one iota, and might even make her angrier if she feels you’re trying to deny taking Richard’s side, while literally testifying for him in a court case for a crime against her.
But I don’t think you should be feeling guilty about introducing them to each other. They’re autonomous adults who made their own decisions at every step of their relationship, which could at any point have included stepping away from it, or not antagonising each other. They made those choices, not you.
posted by penguin pie at 4:31 AM on November 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Sending the letter would be about trying to ease your feelings, it’s very unlikely to soften Carol’s feelings one iota, and might even make her angrier if she feels you’re trying to deny taking Richard’s side, while literally testifying for him in a court case for a crime against her.
But I don’t think you should be feeling guilty about introducing them to each other. They’re autonomous adults who made their own decisions at every step of their relationship, which could at any point have included stepping away from it, or not antagonising each other. They made those choices, not you.
posted by penguin pie at 4:31 AM on November 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
The kind of crime really matters here, along with what evidence exists such that criminal charges have been brought, and what you know beyond “but he seems like a good guy!” that makes you disbelieve that evidence.
Maybe you really do absolutely know he is innocent. But the world is full of people who did terrible things and remain supported by friends and family who “just know” they would NEVER, and that is what it is, but the victims of those terrible things are allowed to decide not to associate with them. That is one interpretation of what’s happening here, or at least what she sees as happening here.
But even if you literally know for certain because you were with him at the time of the crime, you are supporting his side against her in a lawsuit - that can’t be interpreted neutrally. Even if you’re just a character witness. You’ve stepped beyond neutrality here and she is reacting accordingly.
I doubt a letter will help here and suspect it will hurt. But if you want to send it, okay - just check with the lawyer first and make sure you’re not harming Richard’s case. You don’t want to take sides and then also harm that side, or this was for nothing.
You can take a big step back from the guilt - you did nothing wrong in introducing them or trying to stay friends with both of them. But you did make a choice between them even if you tried to convince yourself you hadn’t and this is the logical fallout of that choice.
posted by Stacey at 4:39 AM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Maybe you really do absolutely know he is innocent. But the world is full of people who did terrible things and remain supported by friends and family who “just know” they would NEVER, and that is what it is, but the victims of those terrible things are allowed to decide not to associate with them. That is one interpretation of what’s happening here, or at least what she sees as happening here.
But even if you literally know for certain because you were with him at the time of the crime, you are supporting his side against her in a lawsuit - that can’t be interpreted neutrally. Even if you’re just a character witness. You’ve stepped beyond neutrality here and she is reacting accordingly.
I doubt a letter will help here and suspect it will hurt. But if you want to send it, okay - just check with the lawyer first and make sure you’re not harming Richard’s case. You don’t want to take sides and then also harm that side, or this was for nothing.
You can take a big step back from the guilt - you did nothing wrong in introducing them or trying to stay friends with both of them. But you did make a choice between them even if you tried to convince yourself you hadn’t and this is the logical fallout of that choice.
posted by Stacey at 4:39 AM on November 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
I never said or did anything against Carol
Uh, the court case will feel absolutely like you did. You are on the other side, no matter your reasons. You picked Richard and are basically willing to vouch for him that you are one who believes (contrary to Carol) that he didn't do what he's accused of. That is against her.
You can't fix this, I'm sorry. Do not write her a letter, especially since there are now legal wranglings.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:51 AM on November 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
Uh, the court case will feel absolutely like you did. You are on the other side, no matter your reasons. You picked Richard and are basically willing to vouch for him that you are one who believes (contrary to Carol) that he didn't do what he's accused of. That is against her.
You can't fix this, I'm sorry. Do not write her a letter, especially since there are now legal wranglings.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:51 AM on November 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
You seem to have a blind spot regarding your relationship with Carol. She stopped talking to you before the legal issue. She’s not your friend anymore.
As others have pointed out, by being a character witness to the person she hates, you are not “in the middle,” you are actively supporting Richard. A true neutral position would be you not participating in the legal situation or any of their drama.
So, unless you are going to change course and say “Carol you are right, Richard is a thieving snake”, there is nothing you can say that would appease Carol. And, if Carol is a liar seeking revenge on her ex, why you want to stay friends with that kind of person?
I’m not sure I buy the “Richard is innocent” line, although obviously I don’t know the whole story. In any case, you are being a loyal and supportive friend to Richard. Acknowledge that reality and you might understand Carol’s mindset.
I think it would be extremely frustrating for Carol to receive a letter from you. You are essentially wanting her to tend to your discomfort about her break up. She had been clear she does not want to be in contact with someone who is helping her ex.
I know, it is not fun to be friend dumped, but I think the adult thing to do would be move on.
As far as being disinvited to the party—it hurts, but if you believe you are doing the right thing, you need to accept the fall out. If Carol is part of your friend group, this might continue to be an issue. Not sure how solvable any of it is, but one thing you could do is be genuine and stop pretending she doesn't have a reason to be upset. She has every right to not want to be friends with you, respect that.
As far as being blocked, you’ll get over it.
posted by rhonzo at 5:22 AM on November 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
As others have pointed out, by being a character witness to the person she hates, you are not “in the middle,” you are actively supporting Richard. A true neutral position would be you not participating in the legal situation or any of their drama.
So, unless you are going to change course and say “Carol you are right, Richard is a thieving snake”, there is nothing you can say that would appease Carol. And, if Carol is a liar seeking revenge on her ex, why you want to stay friends with that kind of person?
I’m not sure I buy the “Richard is innocent” line, although obviously I don’t know the whole story. In any case, you are being a loyal and supportive friend to Richard. Acknowledge that reality and you might understand Carol’s mindset.
I think it would be extremely frustrating for Carol to receive a letter from you. You are essentially wanting her to tend to your discomfort about her break up. She had been clear she does not want to be in contact with someone who is helping her ex.
I know, it is not fun to be friend dumped, but I think the adult thing to do would be move on.
As far as being disinvited to the party—it hurts, but if you believe you are doing the right thing, you need to accept the fall out. If Carol is part of your friend group, this might continue to be an issue. Not sure how solvable any of it is, but one thing you could do is be genuine and stop pretending she doesn't have a reason to be upset. She has every right to not want to be friends with you, respect that.
As far as being blocked, you’ll get over it.
posted by rhonzo at 5:22 AM on November 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'm hard-pressed to see how being a character witness in a criminal proceeding is "staying neutral."
By saying, in effect, "Richard is such a nice guy, I just know he would never hurt Carol," you are saying that Carol has made a false accusation, which is itself a Really Big Deal.
It's also striking that you point out that Richard needs the support of his friends at a difficult time, but what about Carol who apparently had "something criminal-related happen." (What a strange grammatical construction!)
You're not responsible for Carol and Richard's relationship going south, but you ARE responsible for your decision to support Richard over Carol.
posted by basalganglia at 5:44 AM on November 6, 2022 [16 favorites]
By saying, in effect, "Richard is such a nice guy, I just know he would never hurt Carol," you are saying that Carol has made a false accusation, which is itself a Really Big Deal.
It's also striking that you point out that Richard needs the support of his friends at a difficult time, but what about Carol who apparently had "something criminal-related happen." (What a strange grammatical construction!)
You're not responsible for Carol and Richard's relationship going south, but you ARE responsible for your decision to support Richard over Carol.
posted by basalganglia at 5:44 AM on November 6, 2022 [16 favorites]
In an acrimonious breakup it's difficult or impossible to really maintain a relationship with both parties. As others have said, whatever your initial intentions, Carol felt that you were taking Richard's side (even though you may have intended to take both/neither).
The court case, however, is a different thing. If you believe person X has committed a crime against you, then why would you want to be friends or acquaintances with person' X's character witness? Being a characters witness is absolutely definitely taking someone's side, that is the entire point.
Stop trying to have your cake and eat it. You seem to believe that it's wrong to take sides when people split up, and as a result you're having a hard time accepting that you have taken Richard's side. That might have been accidental at first, but agreeing to be a character witness is an active choice. Accept that it's ok to remain closer to one party in a former relationship than the other, even when both parties are decent people. You don't need an unselfish reason to be better/lesser friends with different people.
(I am not really convinced by your claims about Richard. He may well be everything you say he is, or you may have been misled by him.)
posted by plonkee at 7:02 AM on November 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
The court case, however, is a different thing. If you believe person X has committed a crime against you, then why would you want to be friends or acquaintances with person' X's character witness? Being a characters witness is absolutely definitely taking someone's side, that is the entire point.
Stop trying to have your cake and eat it. You seem to believe that it's wrong to take sides when people split up, and as a result you're having a hard time accepting that you have taken Richard's side. That might have been accidental at first, but agreeing to be a character witness is an active choice. Accept that it's ok to remain closer to one party in a former relationship than the other, even when both parties are decent people. You don't need an unselfish reason to be better/lesser friends with different people.
(I am not really convinced by your claims about Richard. He may well be everything you say he is, or you may have been misled by him.)
posted by plonkee at 7:02 AM on November 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
My sibling in $deity, anybody can do anything and anybody can have a bad day. You may hold someone in very high esteem, and they could still have committed a crime.
My father in law was warm, funny, caring, a fantastic singer, a good cook (he took his BBQ recipe with him to the great beyond, sadly), and adored my wife. I would have said any number of good things about him. I have a very large memorial tattoo for him. My wife was a character witness at her father's trial, and I first met him in the visitation room of a prison. (Lest there be any doubt, he did it; he may well have been the only man in our state's prison system who copped to what he did.) While our CJ system is deeply flawed, if the state picked up the charges, there's something they're worth investigating.
So you're serving as a character witness for her ex, you're saying you don't believe her (because you don't think he did it AND you're going to court to play character witness for him), and you still want her to be your friend?
Leave her alone.
posted by joycehealy at 7:53 AM on November 6, 2022 [20 favorites]
My father in law was warm, funny, caring, a fantastic singer, a good cook (he took his BBQ recipe with him to the great beyond, sadly), and adored my wife. I would have said any number of good things about him. I have a very large memorial tattoo for him. My wife was a character witness at her father's trial, and I first met him in the visitation room of a prison. (Lest there be any doubt, he did it; he may well have been the only man in our state's prison system who copped to what he did.) While our CJ system is deeply flawed, if the state picked up the charges, there's something they're worth investigating.
So you're serving as a character witness for her ex, you're saying you don't believe her (because you don't think he did it AND you're going to court to play character witness for him), and you still want her to be your friend?
Leave her alone.
posted by joycehealy at 7:53 AM on November 6, 2022 [20 favorites]
Carol does not owe you her friendship, esteem, respect, attention, or access to her social or social media life. Period. It does not matter how much you think she should owe you these things, she does not. You absolutely do not get to try to manipulate or force her to feel other than how she feels. Your hurt feelings are not more important than her unsafe feelings.
This is a person who - for whatever reason, and you don't know because you weren't in the relationship - is afraid of Richard, believes he has harmed her financially and now criminally. And you're on his side. It is logically and emotionally reasonable for her to want nothing to do with you because you cannot be trusted, and to communicate that to others in her social circle for her own safety and theirs.
There's a reason we say things like "believe women", because society's inclination is to give the man way more leeway than they might deserve, and women get less. It is technically possible that she's entirely wrong about a person she knew that well, and it is not unheard of for someone to manufacture a situation that gives them an opportunity to profit in some way, but...that's not the simplest explanation, is it?
And when you ask your friend his opinion on why she feels this way - which of course you have done, at length, for the sake of your own integrity - do you get a sincere answer that takes into consideration her own experiences and concerns, or is the answer something that absolves him of any responsibility (like the classic "somehow all my exes are 'cr*zy' and I'm definitely not the common denominator")?
You may deeply feel that it is the right choice to back up your friend here. If it's that important to you, then you should be prepared to accept any consequences that come from it. At the bottom line, it looks like Carol got the social group in the breakup, and you are not neutral here, you have made a choice, and that choice means you'll have to find a new social group. That happens periodically in life, things just come together and fall apart around various events or shifts in priorities. You should probably accept that and move on.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:42 AM on November 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
This is a person who - for whatever reason, and you don't know because you weren't in the relationship - is afraid of Richard, believes he has harmed her financially and now criminally. And you're on his side. It is logically and emotionally reasonable for her to want nothing to do with you because you cannot be trusted, and to communicate that to others in her social circle for her own safety and theirs.
There's a reason we say things like "believe women", because society's inclination is to give the man way more leeway than they might deserve, and women get less. It is technically possible that she's entirely wrong about a person she knew that well, and it is not unheard of for someone to manufacture a situation that gives them an opportunity to profit in some way, but...that's not the simplest explanation, is it?
And when you ask your friend his opinion on why she feels this way - which of course you have done, at length, for the sake of your own integrity - do you get a sincere answer that takes into consideration her own experiences and concerns, or is the answer something that absolves him of any responsibility (like the classic "somehow all my exes are 'cr*zy' and I'm definitely not the common denominator")?
You may deeply feel that it is the right choice to back up your friend here. If it's that important to you, then you should be prepared to accept any consequences that come from it. At the bottom line, it looks like Carol got the social group in the breakup, and you are not neutral here, you have made a choice, and that choice means you'll have to find a new social group. That happens periodically in life, things just come together and fall apart around various events or shifts in priorities. You should probably accept that and move on.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:42 AM on November 6, 2022 [19 favorites]
Unfortunately, the state brought criminal charges against Richard (the state vs. him, not Carol vs. Richard) following Carol’s accusation.
It sounds like you think that you're not really taking sides because it's the state vs Richard rather than Carol vs Richard. However, since Carol believes that Richard is guilty, being a character witness for Richard in the state vs Richard is the same in Carol's mind as being a character witness for him in Carol vs Richard. It feels to Carol like it is her vs Richard and you are on Team Richard.
If you really want to mend things with Carol, I imagine you would need to withdraw as a witness in the upcoming court case and reach out to Carol offering your support due to her being the victim of a crime. But there's a good chance Carol still won't want to be your friend, and in doing these things you will probably lose Richard's friendship too.
posted by whitelily at 9:56 AM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
It sounds like you think that you're not really taking sides because it's the state vs Richard rather than Carol vs Richard. However, since Carol believes that Richard is guilty, being a character witness for Richard in the state vs Richard is the same in Carol's mind as being a character witness for him in Carol vs Richard. It feels to Carol like it is her vs Richard and you are on Team Richard.
If you really want to mend things with Carol, I imagine you would need to withdraw as a witness in the upcoming court case and reach out to Carol offering your support due to her being the victim of a crime. But there's a good chance Carol still won't want to be your friend, and in doing these things you will probably lose Richard's friendship too.
posted by whitelily at 9:56 AM on November 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I agree with the prevailing answer to your main question, which is that no, you should not send a letter to Carol. It is unlikely to mend your friendship and could also place unfair pressure on her.
However, as someone who has been accused of being overly logical and dispassionate in similar situations, I feel for you, too. As others have pointed out, without knowing the specifics of the crime under discussion, there is usually a pretty high bar for the state to press charges against someone. Generally, they need to have more evidence than somebody's angry ex saying "he must have been behind it." You might not know everything about the case against Richard, or even about your friend.
But, I can also see how being a character witness for Richard is not necessarily taking sides against Carol, even if he is in the wrong. You know him in a certain context, and you have your own history with him. Testifying to that is not necessarily discrediting anybody else, it is simply offering another angle on a human being who is going to be overwhelmingly presented a certain way in an adversarial system. It might help you to start framing it this way in your own mind, and in any discussions you have to have with others. You are not a bad person for seeing things this way. (I do wish we knew more about what Richard was accused of, though, since the seriousness of the attack on Carol makes a difference here.)
Ultimately, though, I think others are right that you should let things go with Carol for the foreseeable future. She's going through a whole range of things that mean she's not going to be able to understand your perspective on this, nor should she be expected to. Recognizing and honouring her perception and need for distance would be a kindness.
posted by rpfields at 10:46 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
However, as someone who has been accused of being overly logical and dispassionate in similar situations, I feel for you, too. As others have pointed out, without knowing the specifics of the crime under discussion, there is usually a pretty high bar for the state to press charges against someone. Generally, they need to have more evidence than somebody's angry ex saying "he must have been behind it." You might not know everything about the case against Richard, or even about your friend.
But, I can also see how being a character witness for Richard is not necessarily taking sides against Carol, even if he is in the wrong. You know him in a certain context, and you have your own history with him. Testifying to that is not necessarily discrediting anybody else, it is simply offering another angle on a human being who is going to be overwhelmingly presented a certain way in an adversarial system. It might help you to start framing it this way in your own mind, and in any discussions you have to have with others. You are not a bad person for seeing things this way. (I do wish we knew more about what Richard was accused of, though, since the seriousness of the attack on Carol makes a difference here.)
Ultimately, though, I think others are right that you should let things go with Carol for the foreseeable future. She's going through a whole range of things that mean she's not going to be able to understand your perspective on this, nor should she be expected to. Recognizing and honouring her perception and need for distance would be a kindness.
posted by rpfields at 10:46 AM on November 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
1. You took a side by agreeing to testify for Richard.
2. Criminal charges are by definition “the state v defendant.” “Carol v Richard” is for civil suits. This is because criminal charges are about wrongs committed against society. There is nothing mitigating about the fact that Richard’s case was brought by the state.
posted by saltykitten at 10:47 AM on November 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
2. Criminal charges are by definition “the state v defendant.” “Carol v Richard” is for civil suits. This is because criminal charges are about wrongs committed against society. There is nothing mitigating about the fact that Richard’s case was brought by the state.
posted by saltykitten at 10:47 AM on November 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think others have covered the "why you shouldn't write this letter/how you aren't really in the middle" aspect quite well (and I agree with that take) and I just want to add that it seems quite clear that Carol does not want -- nor need -- explanations or closure from you.
posted by sm1tten at 10:53 AM on November 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by sm1tten at 10:53 AM on November 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
You have to assume that Carol “knows (both emotionally and logically)” that Richard DID do it, just as sure as you are of the opposite.
You’re standing up for him in court. For him means against her, that’s how it works. You’ve sealed the fate of your relationship with Carol. Leave her alone.
And yes, writing her on this topic is legally inadvisable on top of that.
posted by kapers at 2:22 PM on November 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
You’re standing up for him in court. For him means against her, that’s how it works. You’ve sealed the fate of your relationship with Carol. Leave her alone.
And yes, writing her on this topic is legally inadvisable on top of that.
posted by kapers at 2:22 PM on November 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
if you "know logically" that Richard is innocent, surely it would be more helpful to him for you to testify to that in court than a character testimonial could ever be. perhaps I am missing something? if his lawyer isn't aware that you have this knowledge, better tell them right away.
if you just think he didn't do it because you like him, you don't actually know anything.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:11 PM on November 6, 2022 [18 favorites]
if you just think he didn't do it because you like him, you don't actually know anything.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:11 PM on November 6, 2022 [18 favorites]
Sometimes it helps me to write out my feelings regardless of what I do with the written product. Like, sometimes I write Ask MeFi posts and then don't post them, but the process allows me to think through the situation myself. I agree that you probably don't need to send Carol a letter/it doesn't sound like it would be welcome, but maybe you could write one just as an exercise for your own closure in the relationship? Good luck in any case. Sounds like a challenging situation.
posted by knownfossils at 10:01 PM on November 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by knownfossils at 10:01 PM on November 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
Have you actually spoken to Richard's lawyer about what it means to be a character witness? You can't just get on the witness stand and say that Richard is a nice guy. If you're in the US or a place with a similar code of evidence, there are only very specific sorts of character evidence that are admissible in a criminal trial. You're going to be asked specific questions about character traits relevant to the crime Richard is accused of. You'll then be subject to cross examination to try to show that you are lying to assist Richard, or that you don't actually know Richard as well as you claim to. You may be asked about specific incidents unrelated to the crime he's accused of: both situations you've been part of with Richard, and things that you've witnessed Richard participate in. You may be asked about other people you and Richard know in common, including Carol's friends, and what his reputation is among those other people.
This isn't just you saying Richard is a nice guy. You're going to be asked to swear under oath, and subject to cross examination, that you know enough about Richard's character to swear that the accusation against him is inconsistent with his character. You can also be asked about your relationship with Carol. That includes, if you communicate with her in any way, about any letter you send her. If you actually want to be helpful to Richard, you really need to talk to his lawyer before you communicate with Carol in any way. And yes, by testifying for Richard, you are destroying any hope of ever having a friendship with Carol.
posted by decathecting at 6:06 PM on November 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
This isn't just you saying Richard is a nice guy. You're going to be asked to swear under oath, and subject to cross examination, that you know enough about Richard's character to swear that the accusation against him is inconsistent with his character. You can also be asked about your relationship with Carol. That includes, if you communicate with her in any way, about any letter you send her. If you actually want to be helpful to Richard, you really need to talk to his lawyer before you communicate with Carol in any way. And yes, by testifying for Richard, you are destroying any hope of ever having a friendship with Carol.
posted by decathecting at 6:06 PM on November 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
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And it may be worth taking a minute to consider that you’re not giving a character reference for a job application or such, you’re being a witness in a criminal case. In most jurisdictions, the hurdles for a criminal case are higher than for private claims. Prosecutors tend not to accept clearly frivolous claims, they tend to want there to be enough evidence to support the claim. So your friend’s innocence may be clear to you but it doesn’t sound all that clear cut if it’s actually going to criminal court. Irrespective of what you plan to say or not say or the outcome of the case, your wider circle of friends is bound to have views and they don’t have to stay neutral. Do you deserve to lose friends here, probably not. Are you going to lose some, probably.
posted by koahiatamadl at 12:01 AM on November 6, 2022 [9 favorites]