Tell me how you radically changed your sleep/wake cycle
September 8, 2022 11:29 AM Subscribe
Looking for the most painless ways to fall asleep/wake up earlier and "reset" my sleep cycle.
Due to a combination of medications that affect sleep, years of night shift work, and what I suspect is some form of a circadian rhythm disorder, I generally sleep from 4am-1pm, give or take an hour. (Once I'm asleep I have no trouble staying asleep).
I want to ultimately change this to closer to, say, 1am-10am, which will be more compatible with my current work situation. I do need a full 9 hours to feel rested enough.
If you or your spouse has made a change like this, what has worked best?
(Note that I don't have sleep apnea, and am not looking for medical advice)
Due to a combination of medications that affect sleep, years of night shift work, and what I suspect is some form of a circadian rhythm disorder, I generally sleep from 4am-1pm, give or take an hour. (Once I'm asleep I have no trouble staying asleep).
I want to ultimately change this to closer to, say, 1am-10am, which will be more compatible with my current work situation. I do need a full 9 hours to feel rested enough.
If you or your spouse has made a change like this, what has worked best?
(Note that I don't have sleep apnea, and am not looking for medical advice)
I am like this. I will slip back and forth between your current pattern and what you describe as ideal.
I don't think this is possible without waking up earlier, and tiring yourself out during the day. Ideally it should be at a consistent time. I use an alarm with a bright light, to reinforce the pattern.
As tedious as it is, I do also find avoiding light and screens in the couple hours right before sleeping to be helpful.
posted by lookoutbelow at 11:36 AM on September 8, 2022
I don't think this is possible without waking up earlier, and tiring yourself out during the day. Ideally it should be at a consistent time. I use an alarm with a bright light, to reinforce the pattern.
As tedious as it is, I do also find avoiding light and screens in the couple hours right before sleeping to be helpful.
posted by lookoutbelow at 11:36 AM on September 8, 2022
The only thing that has worked for me is:
1. Arrange the work schedule so that I only have one day a week when I can lie in. Two days in a row and my sleep schedule will slip too far to recover. This has to be something that I can't make excuses to miss, or start later, etc.
2. I always sleep slightly less than I feel I need. For me, that's 7 hours, instead of the 8-ish I need to feel fully rested. This means I'm not as well-rested as I like, but the balance is that I'm also not completely exhausted on the days I get 4 hours of sleep because my schedule is effed up.
There are other things I do, like stopping stimulating activities at least an hour before bedtime, but I don't think they're nearly as important.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:02 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
1. Arrange the work schedule so that I only have one day a week when I can lie in. Two days in a row and my sleep schedule will slip too far to recover. This has to be something that I can't make excuses to miss, or start later, etc.
2. I always sleep slightly less than I feel I need. For me, that's 7 hours, instead of the 8-ish I need to feel fully rested. This means I'm not as well-rested as I like, but the balance is that I'm also not completely exhausted on the days I get 4 hours of sleep because my schedule is effed up.
There are other things I do, like stopping stimulating activities at least an hour before bedtime, but I don't think they're nearly as important.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:02 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'd suggest asking your doctor if Modafinil could be helpful. It's widely used for jet lag and to help people adjust to shift work. Taking doses at the right time could potentially help you shift your body clock.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 12:04 PM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 12:04 PM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
When I had a job that required me to get up around 2 a.m., all it took to get me on my new schedule of going to bed around 7 p.m. was getting up before dawn a couple days in a row. If I were you, I would just set my alarm for 10 a.m. and stay awake all day without napping and then I'm sure I would be ready to fall asleep by 1:00 - if not on the very first day I tried it, certainly by the end of the second day. I guess it's not that simple for everyone, but it is that simple for me.
posted by Redstart at 12:05 PM on September 8, 2022
posted by Redstart at 12:05 PM on September 8, 2022
The only painless way I have found to do this for me is to just keep going to bed later and later until you wrap around. I have a pretty high but not 100% success rate with doing that, but obviously there are a handful of days where you'll have a extremely strange schedule, which might not work depending on your lifestyle.
Trying to shift earlier is quicker, but for me usually involves several days where I'm basically useless at doing anything.
I think I'm pretty unusual in this regard, though, so YMMV.
posted by wesleyac at 12:23 PM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Trying to shift earlier is quicker, but for me usually involves several days where I'm basically useless at doing anything.
I think I'm pretty unusual in this regard, though, so YMMV.
posted by wesleyac at 12:23 PM on September 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Learning that a 300mcg (0.3mg) dose of Melatonin was effective without leaving me groggy in the morning helped me reset faster when travelling, and helped with sleep in general. (See https://news.mit.edu/2005/melatonin) I couldn't find 300mcg doses in stores, but it was easy to order from Amazon. From there, it was whack-a-mole with other factors: light, temperature, watching what I drank after dinner to avoid having to make bathroom trips in the middle of the night. Fasting in advance of a big adjustment seems to help.
posted by dws at 12:35 PM on September 8, 2022
posted by dws at 12:35 PM on September 8, 2022
I've been able to readjust sleep schedules with a combination of getting up early for a day or two to short myself on sleep a bit, then setting myself up for the new bedtime with melatonin about half an hour beforehand, and ruthlessly getting phones/tv out of my bedroom for at least an hour before bed. Paper books or e-ink ereaders only. In dire straits, CBD oil tincture seems to also help me get to sleep, but that's a new addition and I haven't really tested it enough to be sure it's anything besides a bit of placebo help, YMMV there. The second I start to feel sleepy I turn off the light; pushing through any initial sleepiness sometimes finds me on the far side of it wide awake agian.
If all of that doesn't work, a body scan meditation done while lying in bed with the lights off sometimes provides the final push to get me to sleep; I pretty much never actually get through it all the way, I put myself to sleep partway through.
posted by Stacey at 12:54 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
If all of that doesn't work, a body scan meditation done while lying in bed with the lights off sometimes provides the final push to get me to sleep; I pretty much never actually get through it all the way, I put myself to sleep partway through.
posted by Stacey at 12:54 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Go camping for a week so that it gets really dark when the sun goes down and the light is unmistakably becoming strong as the sun rises.
To make it work more effectively don't bring any screens, and don't sit up with a bonfire either. You can sit up and talk or sing around the embers of a fire if you want, and it is okay to use a dim flashlight to light your way to the outhouse but don't be around, let alone use, halogen lights, super bright LED's, a Coleman lamp with a mantle, or car headlights.
If the neighbourhood is dark you can do this in a backyard.
posted by Jane the Brown at 1:20 PM on September 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
To make it work more effectively don't bring any screens, and don't sit up with a bonfire either. You can sit up and talk or sing around the embers of a fire if you want, and it is okay to use a dim flashlight to light your way to the outhouse but don't be around, let alone use, halogen lights, super bright LED's, a Coleman lamp with a mantle, or car headlights.
If the neighbourhood is dark you can do this in a backyard.
posted by Jane the Brown at 1:20 PM on September 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
I have the same sleep cycle as you (other than needing less sleep overall) which if you're not aware lines up with Delayed Sleep Disorder in case an accommodation would help with your work. The only thing that's ever worked for me to wake up earlier is lots and lots of natural light at dawn. Like huge windows that face the sunrise. A bunch of the Hue or similar bulbs that can simulate sunrise.
posted by Candleman at 1:32 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Candleman at 1:32 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Quit or lower caffeine brings your body to parity with natural sleep cycle/times.
posted by artificialard at 2:32 PM on September 8, 2022
posted by artificialard at 2:32 PM on September 8, 2022
Best answer: I'm an emergency physician/medical toxicologist.
I know your not asking for medical advice, but I wanted to weigh in with some practical advice about melatonin
Specifically, avoid over-the-counter melatonin products/supplements. Here's why:
A) Melatonin supplement makers don't practice truth in labelling or advertising.
B) They're not required to get third-party scientific analyses of ingredient purity and quality, so they don't. The ingredient list on a bottle may or may not be what's actually in the product
C) They're not subject to any formal oversight of manufacturing practices: Factories may or may not get inspected for sanitation, proper storage of raw ingredients/finished product, instrument and machinery calibration, and so on....
which means
Instead of OTC melatonin, use prescription melatonin; specifically, the class of medications called melatonin receptor agonists (MRAs).
Three MRAs are currently available: Ramelteon, Agomelatine, and Tasimelteon. I have no idea how they differ, but there are sleep specialists in your area that do. Talk to them
posted by BadgerDoctor at 3:22 PM on September 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
I know your not asking for medical advice, but I wanted to weigh in with some practical advice about melatonin
Specifically, avoid over-the-counter melatonin products/supplements. Here's why:
A) Melatonin supplement makers don't practice truth in labelling or advertising.
B) They're not required to get third-party scientific analyses of ingredient purity and quality, so they don't. The ingredient list on a bottle may or may not be what's actually in the product
C) They're not subject to any formal oversight of manufacturing practices: Factories may or may not get inspected for sanitation, proper storage of raw ingredients/finished product, instrument and machinery calibration, and so on....
which means
Instead of OTC melatonin, use prescription melatonin; specifically, the class of medications called melatonin receptor agonists (MRAs).
Three MRAs are currently available: Ramelteon, Agomelatine, and Tasimelteon. I have no idea how they differ, but there are sleep specialists in your area that do. Talk to them
posted by BadgerDoctor at 3:22 PM on September 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
Seconding the 'go camping' trick. It really does work. If that's not an option, this weekend start getting out of bed at 10am and turning your lights out at 1am. No screens in between, no naps during the day.
You probably won't fall asleep for a while the first couple days, and have some short nights of sleep, but after a while your body will eventually give in and cooperate. Use melatonin or CBD or rosemary tea or cherry juice or valarian root tincture or all of the above to help with the falling asleep bit, but try to to over-caffenate during the day.
Do something physical like a long walk or light workout. The goal is to be *tired* at bedtime. Try not to disrupt your schedule at all, even on weekends, for at least 4 months. This has worked for me to quickly adjust to new time zones and when my work schedule changed.
posted by ananci at 4:19 PM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
You probably won't fall asleep for a while the first couple days, and have some short nights of sleep, but after a while your body will eventually give in and cooperate. Use melatonin or CBD or rosemary tea or cherry juice or valarian root tincture or all of the above to help with the falling asleep bit, but try to to over-caffenate during the day.
Do something physical like a long walk or light workout. The goal is to be *tired* at bedtime. Try not to disrupt your schedule at all, even on weekends, for at least 4 months. This has worked for me to quickly adjust to new time zones and when my work schedule changed.
posted by ananci at 4:19 PM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
The two things that helped me with this were
posted by panic at 5:44 PM on September 8, 2022
- developing an evening routine and
- having something to eat as soon as possible after waking up.
posted by panic at 5:44 PM on September 8, 2022
I love my sunrise simulating alarm clock. It goes from a dull red light to a bright white light over 20 or 30 minutes to trick your body into producing the hormones involved in waking up. On the extremely rare occasion I forget to set it I really notice a difference when my back up (traditional, loud and annoying) alarm goes off.
posted by ticketmaster10 at 8:20 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ticketmaster10 at 8:20 PM on September 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just based on my own experience, I think if you have a messed up circadian rhythm, strategies aimed at insomnia aren't likely to help. All that helps me is melatonin. It is possible to find OTC melatonin that is third-party tested.
Don't start with a melatonin dose over 0.5 mg (too much can cause vivid nightmares). Take it about an hour before you want to be fully asleep, at the same time every day.
posted by Comet Bug at 8:49 PM on September 8, 2022
Don't start with a melatonin dose over 0.5 mg (too much can cause vivid nightmares). Take it about an hour before you want to be fully asleep, at the same time every day.
posted by Comet Bug at 8:49 PM on September 8, 2022
Response by poster: "It is possible to find OTC melatonin that is third-party tested."
Comet Bug, how would I do this? I've been taking 5mg of the OTC supplements but the comment about these not being reliable has me second guessing!
posted by CancerSucks at 11:52 PM on September 8, 2022
Comet Bug, how would I do this? I've been taking 5mg of the OTC supplements but the comment about these not being reliable has me second guessing!
posted by CancerSucks at 11:52 PM on September 8, 2022
I mostly sleep only six hours a night on a twenty eight hour day making a six day week. My left alone sleep cycle is just going to bed about four hours later every night. When I do have to joggle things around for a while like for a meeting or going to a conference or such I usually take the long way around and just stay up all 'day' until I'll just plonk into bed and be asleep. Then to continue the cycle at least for a good while... there are tricks to luring yourself into sleep.
Lay down and tense up every part of your body as hard as you can, face, neck, arms, chest, gut, legs, feet, toes, fingers, everything. Hold it for a bit, then stop and relax everything letting yourself melt into the bed. Let all that tension just float away.
Then you start at your forehead and focus all of your attention there, just imagine a little spot there until you can focus your thoughts enough to feel that little dot, relax that bit. Then move the dot down to your throat, do the same, focus, feel, relax. Then the dot moves to the top of your chest. Repeat. Then it moves to your right shoulder. Repeat. then the elbow, then the wrist, then the base of the thumb, then the joint of the thumb. Then back to the base of the thumb before moving to the base of the index finger, then up and back down that finger then over to the next. After the pinkie it's back to the wrist and back to the elbow and back to the shoulder then chest then same for other arm. Then back to the top of the chest and move down to the middle of the chest, then down to just below the belly, then down and back the right leg like the arms, then back to the belly and down and back the left leg back to the belly and back to the middle and back to the top and back to the throat and back to the forehead and then finally the very top of your head.
It's like counting sheep, you'll likely fall asleep before you finish. Tense everything up as much as possible, relax it. Keep you mind focused and occupied on a long yet trivial task of just making sure everything is relaxed. Zonk! probably asleep before you finish.
posted by zengargoyle at 3:34 AM on September 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Lay down and tense up every part of your body as hard as you can, face, neck, arms, chest, gut, legs, feet, toes, fingers, everything. Hold it for a bit, then stop and relax everything letting yourself melt into the bed. Let all that tension just float away.
Then you start at your forehead and focus all of your attention there, just imagine a little spot there until you can focus your thoughts enough to feel that little dot, relax that bit. Then move the dot down to your throat, do the same, focus, feel, relax. Then the dot moves to the top of your chest. Repeat. Then it moves to your right shoulder. Repeat. then the elbow, then the wrist, then the base of the thumb, then the joint of the thumb. Then back to the base of the thumb before moving to the base of the index finger, then up and back down that finger then over to the next. After the pinkie it's back to the wrist and back to the elbow and back to the shoulder then chest then same for other arm. Then back to the top of the chest and move down to the middle of the chest, then down to just below the belly, then down and back the right leg like the arms, then back to the belly and down and back the left leg back to the belly and back to the middle and back to the top and back to the throat and back to the forehead and then finally the very top of your head.
It's like counting sheep, you'll likely fall asleep before you finish. Tense everything up as much as possible, relax it. Keep you mind focused and occupied on a long yet trivial task of just making sure everything is relaxed. Zonk! probably asleep before you finish.
posted by zengargoyle at 3:34 AM on September 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
My natural inclination is to go to sleep between midnight and 2am, and sleep through till at least 8 or 9. That's been normal for me throughout adulthood, despite having to get up earlier than that for work right the way through.
This year, I've been successfully getting up early (between 5 and 7, depending on the time of sunrise) and going for a 90-minute walk first thing. I'm not doing so well at getting to bed on time - I'm getting sleepy at the right time, but then failing to actually follow through and go to bed - so I've had a few days off here and there to catch up on sleep, but whether it's the early-morning exposure to a solid chunk of daylight (er, figuratively speaking) or just having something I actually want to do (instead of something I *have* to do) in the morning, it's been surprisingly sustainable.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 3:41 AM on September 9, 2022
This year, I've been successfully getting up early (between 5 and 7, depending on the time of sunrise) and going for a 90-minute walk first thing. I'm not doing so well at getting to bed on time - I'm getting sleepy at the right time, but then failing to actually follow through and go to bed - so I've had a few days off here and there to catch up on sleep, but whether it's the early-morning exposure to a solid chunk of daylight (er, figuratively speaking) or just having something I actually want to do (instead of something I *have* to do) in the morning, it's been surprisingly sustainable.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 3:41 AM on September 9, 2022
Echoing everyone who suggested dawn simulation alarm clocks or light bulbs. I recently moved into an east facing apartment in a city far more north than my previous home and in the weeks prior to getting curtains I woke up with the birds... at 5 am (just the mini blinds were not enough to keep the room from flooding with light). I really didn't want to shift my schedule so drastically, but it was only on the cloudy mornings that I could sleep past 5:30am.
posted by spamandkimchi at 8:26 AM on September 9, 2022
posted by spamandkimchi at 8:26 AM on September 9, 2022
Comet Bug, how would I do this?
I just did a search for “melatonin third party tested” and got useful results. The one I take is only tested in-house, though (Source Naturals).
posted by Comet Bug at 10:54 AM on September 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I just did a search for “melatonin third party tested” and got useful results. The one I take is only tested in-house, though (Source Naturals).
posted by Comet Bug at 10:54 AM on September 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Andrew Huberman (neuroscientist focusing on visual systems) has covered this and I have used the protocols he mentions to great success. I believe this is the specific podcast episode.
posted by firefly5 at 7:54 AM on September 10, 2022
posted by firefly5 at 7:54 AM on September 10, 2022
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:30 AM on September 8, 2022 [2 favorites]