What's going to happen with misinformation & civil war enthusiasts?
August 30, 2022 7:32 AM Subscribe
Even if we did get rid of the out and out fascists in American politics, what happens to all of the regular citizens who were primed to go right along with them?
In the online liberal/leftist spaces I occupy, it seems lots of people are mostly focusing on hypocrisy of U.S government officials/politicians like Marjorie Taylor Greene, Clarence Thomas, the folks against student loans who received PPP forgiveness, etc. and/or mocking how ridiculous they are. And they are ridiculous and hypocritical, of course -- this has been going on for a while.
But much like the politician who voted against gay marriage after attending his son's gay wedding, they don't care about hypocrisy. They care about "us versus them" mentality and spreading lies to gain power. 'Our' definition of 'bringing them around' seems entirely futile.
My question is: Even if somehow we remove these jokers from power, what's the end game for all of the regular citizens who BELIEVE the stuff they say, and in fact are just eager to start a new civil war? How do we deal with this without having an actual war?
I would love to know any historical precedent, as well as any folks looking at our current predicament and making predictions for what the end game is.
Thanks in advance!
In the online liberal/leftist spaces I occupy, it seems lots of people are mostly focusing on hypocrisy of U.S government officials/politicians like Marjorie Taylor Greene, Clarence Thomas, the folks against student loans who received PPP forgiveness, etc. and/or mocking how ridiculous they are. And they are ridiculous and hypocritical, of course -- this has been going on for a while.
But much like the politician who voted against gay marriage after attending his son's gay wedding, they don't care about hypocrisy. They care about "us versus them" mentality and spreading lies to gain power. 'Our' definition of 'bringing them around' seems entirely futile.
My question is: Even if somehow we remove these jokers from power, what's the end game for all of the regular citizens who BELIEVE the stuff they say, and in fact are just eager to start a new civil war? How do we deal with this without having an actual war?
I would love to know any historical precedent, as well as any folks looking at our current predicament and making predictions for what the end game is.
Thanks in advance!
Optimistic me's answer to this is to look at all the things that the radical right is trying to undo and do more of those things.
For example: They're trying to push back on talking about gay families, accepting trans people as people, teaching actual history about racism, women's rights, etc. We need to aggressively and without apology keep doing those things. ("Doing those things" meaning teaching, supporting, protecting, etc.)
Why? Because the only way to rid the country of MTG supporters is to educate people, embrace facts, and teach empathy and kindness. People like to point out the stupidity of MTG and the like, but the stupidity isn't the dangerous part. It's the cruelty. I know and have know people who, well, just aren't smart. But they are/were kind and I'd rather have a society full of people who might not be smart but are kind and willing to learn and change.
Pessimistic me says... you don't. Not if the MAGA folks are unwilling to allow progress without violence. We coddled them after the Civil War and that's how we're still here today. (I am, of course, radically oversimplifying things, but.)
We cannot, as a society, continue to tolerate intolerance. We just can't. As long as Nazis, fascists, MAGAs, whatever can show their faces in public and recruit, we're in danger.
Even a whisper of MAGA rhetoric should be ostracizing. And we were headed in that direction! Which is why they're in a frenzy now. The whole panic over "cancel culture" is and was that without being able to - without any consequences, even social ones - dehumanize others in public, they can't recruit. They can't continue as-is.
posted by jzb at 7:58 AM on August 30, 2022 [10 favorites]
For example: They're trying to push back on talking about gay families, accepting trans people as people, teaching actual history about racism, women's rights, etc. We need to aggressively and without apology keep doing those things. ("Doing those things" meaning teaching, supporting, protecting, etc.)
Why? Because the only way to rid the country of MTG supporters is to educate people, embrace facts, and teach empathy and kindness. People like to point out the stupidity of MTG and the like, but the stupidity isn't the dangerous part. It's the cruelty. I know and have know people who, well, just aren't smart. But they are/were kind and I'd rather have a society full of people who might not be smart but are kind and willing to learn and change.
Pessimistic me says... you don't. Not if the MAGA folks are unwilling to allow progress without violence. We coddled them after the Civil War and that's how we're still here today. (I am, of course, radically oversimplifying things, but.)
We cannot, as a society, continue to tolerate intolerance. We just can't. As long as Nazis, fascists, MAGAs, whatever can show their faces in public and recruit, we're in danger.
Even a whisper of MAGA rhetoric should be ostracizing. And we were headed in that direction! Which is why they're in a frenzy now. The whole panic over "cancel culture" is and was that without being able to - without any consequences, even social ones - dehumanize others in public, they can't recruit. They can't continue as-is.
posted by jzb at 7:58 AM on August 30, 2022 [10 favorites]
Best answer: My question is: Even if somehow we remove these jokers from power, what's the end game for all of the regular citizens who BELIEVE the stuff they say, and in fact are just eager to start a new civil war? How do we deal with this without having an actual war?
A lot of the regular citizens are followers who needed a leader. Right now they have leaders. If we take away the leaders...then the followers have no leader, and chances are slim that many of them would be willing and/or able to step forward and become the new leader, so....they're just going to fade back into lower-level local community grumbling, probably.
This isn't a left/right value judgement thing, or is it a unique scenario. This is human nature. It's hard trying to create and sustain a movement from scratch; it's easy to sit around and talk all day about "wouldn't it be cool if....." and it's way harder to then take those ideas and go "so this is how we make that happen." That's true of every situation where you have a group of people trying to achieve a goal - hell, we're running into that problem with my community garden, for God's sake.
Take away the leaders, and suddenly John Q. Bigot and Karen F. Fascist have to make all their own decisions themselves, and the majority of them are going to be all "Uh....okay, someone else take the lead here, I don't know what to do" and will slink back off home, where they may occasionally grumble or write pointed letters to the editor of their local paper or get into hissy-fit fights in supermarket parking lots. Maybe once in a blue moon someone better at community organizing will come up with some letter writing campaign about the Drag Story Hours at their schools and they'll glom onto that, but very few of them would organize such a campaign on a grass-roots level themselves.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:17 AM on August 30, 2022 [14 favorites]
A lot of the regular citizens are followers who needed a leader. Right now they have leaders. If we take away the leaders...then the followers have no leader, and chances are slim that many of them would be willing and/or able to step forward and become the new leader, so....they're just going to fade back into lower-level local community grumbling, probably.
This isn't a left/right value judgement thing, or is it a unique scenario. This is human nature. It's hard trying to create and sustain a movement from scratch; it's easy to sit around and talk all day about "wouldn't it be cool if....." and it's way harder to then take those ideas and go "so this is how we make that happen." That's true of every situation where you have a group of people trying to achieve a goal - hell, we're running into that problem with my community garden, for God's sake.
Take away the leaders, and suddenly John Q. Bigot and Karen F. Fascist have to make all their own decisions themselves, and the majority of them are going to be all "Uh....okay, someone else take the lead here, I don't know what to do" and will slink back off home, where they may occasionally grumble or write pointed letters to the editor of their local paper or get into hissy-fit fights in supermarket parking lots. Maybe once in a blue moon someone better at community organizing will come up with some letter writing campaign about the Drag Story Hours at their schools and they'll glom onto that, but very few of them would organize such a campaign on a grass-roots level themselves.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:17 AM on August 30, 2022 [14 favorites]
I wonder if you were inspired by this week's New Yorker Radio Hour? They went back to an interview from the recent past about civil war and the spectrum between democracy and autocracy. I found it fascinating. You might like the interview and want to read something by Barbara Walter.
posted by Snowishberlin at 8:57 AM on August 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Snowishberlin at 8:57 AM on August 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
If an actual civil war happens, I'd assume they'd end up in various militias, flee, lose their possessions, go hungry, and die, just like people have in other civil conflicts. The same thing will happen to you.
Personally I think that rather than have all this fussing and fighting and stress, they'll just remove the vote altogether. Democracy is slow, it promotes demagogues and fools (fill in your demagogue and fool of choice), and if you take it seriously it can get in the way of money and good taste... and does it reaaaaaaally do anything for you, the voter, anyway? Wouldn't you feel more secure with a little less representation? And anyway, American democracy is based on the racist Founding Fathers and unfit for purpose/has deviated so far from the holy Founding Fathers that it's unfit for purpose... Set yourselves free from the lie, brothers and sisters!
posted by kingdead at 9:21 AM on August 30, 2022
Personally I think that rather than have all this fussing and fighting and stress, they'll just remove the vote altogether. Democracy is slow, it promotes demagogues and fools (fill in your demagogue and fool of choice), and if you take it seriously it can get in the way of money and good taste... and does it reaaaaaaally do anything for you, the voter, anyway? Wouldn't you feel more secure with a little less representation? And anyway, American democracy is based on the racist Founding Fathers and unfit for purpose/has deviated so far from the holy Founding Fathers that it's unfit for purpose... Set yourselves free from the lie, brothers and sisters!
posted by kingdead at 9:21 AM on August 30, 2022
This is something that happens fairly often around the world: the Truth and Reconciliation Commission after apartheid, de-Nazification after WWII, Reconstruction after our Civil War. The general idea is that the people who committed crimes go to court for those crimes, and those who didn't commit crimes and just kind of went along go back to regular life. Then, presumably, you can democratically out-vote them, often with a revised constitution to set some guardrails. The most common alternative, which has also been implemented numerous times across history, is to send them all to death camps. That's not generally considered best practice, though. Especially if your side is not victorious.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:23 AM on August 30, 2022
posted by kevinbelt at 9:23 AM on August 30, 2022
I find your question fascinating. I make it a point to understand both sides. Or, rather, to hear what both sides are saying. I watch both CNN and Fox. Even a little MSNBC. The right is saying the exact same thing about the left. That the left is heading us to a civil war. They complain about the Deep State. It seems absurd on the face of it. Then, FBI agent responsible for the Hunter Biden laptop is either fired or asked to resign because of the coverup. Obviously, Trump has a bijillion things he has done too. Your question presumes that the progressive left's way is the right way and will win out. Maybe. Maybe not.
I think you will find that similar to the Tea Party movement in the Republican party, the AOC Squad progressives will have their day and will be pushed back because ultimately, a great majority of Americans are centrists looking for a middle ground between almost every issue you can find. Abortion is a perfect example. From the polls I have seen, most people would oppose abortion up until the day of birth and most are opposed to making abortion illegal entirely. I think most settle into the middle ground that up until the end of some period (2nd trimester?) and for health emergencies to the mother and rape and incest, let the woman choose.
One person's misinformation is another's truth. And vice versa. The end game is that the majority will win out. Meaning, we will end up electing centrist president's like how Clinton pivoted to, or Pappy Bush, or someone not yet on the radar. Sometimes that takes time. Years. As far to the right as Trump is, (and god forbid he runs again and wins), Biden is to the left. Look at Reagan and Carter. Two successive presidents on the opposite side of the spectrum. America tried Carter and his inflation and energy policies drove the economy into a tailspin paving the way for Reagan conservatives and supply side economics. It is actually quite similar to today.
The pendulum swings. I think that is why Biden and the left are trying to enact as many of their policies and ideas as quickly as possible. They know that one day, maybe not in 2024, but one day, the Republicans will be back in power and start doing the same thing their way. What happens to the lemmings blindly following the extremist views? They either continue to make a big stink or the fade into the background waiting for their day to come again. I also think if there is ever a charismatic leader who can find a third middle way, people from both parties (independents?), will coalesce behind them.
I also think that this has been the case for hundreds of years. The difference now is social media and access to (hate) speech being easy for anyone with a phone or a keyboard. Politics is not binary. There is compromise and middle ground that can appeal to a majority. People understand and appreciate there is compromise. Most people just want to be left alone to pursue their own happiness. Just because some people are loud does not mean they represent the majority.
If you are looking for a point where MAGA or the Squadies are declared defeated, I do not think that will happen. Civil war is not always in the form of guns pointed at each other a la Gettysburg. We are in a civil war right now. The country cannot be more divided. The country is fighting with rhetoric, with State's rights, with local, state and federal legislation. Civil dialogue is, shall I say, on the back burner. We have become a country of hot takes and little thought. Both sides.
Look at CNN. Apparently, the new head has declared he wants to move the station to the middle away from the far left. I guess left does not pay. Too much fragmentation? The right has FOX and the left has too many competing voices. Watch FOX from 7pm to 11pm. Makes your head want to explode. But it is clear that all the anchors, Waters, Carlson, Hannity, Ingram, they all coordinate messaging. What i find is interesting is that FOX fights against policies, CNN fights against personalities. The anti-Trump focus is wrong. He loves that shit. Attack his ideas not his asshole insane personality. CNN just feeds into Trump's ego. Trump is like your teeth. Ignore him and he will rot away.
While I do agree it is as bad as it looks right now, I do not think the end game is catastrophic or is a literal war with weapons or that we have to send people to re-education camps. (Although why was Antifa carrying AR-15s to the rally yesterday?) The end game is that the majority wins out and retakes control. They get sick of the rhetoric on both sides and a centrist leader, maybe, hopefully, one from each party emerges to bring the heat down. Biden pledged that and it shows that people will vote for that. He failed on that front, but the American people will keep trying to find a centrist leader.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:40 AM on August 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think you will find that similar to the Tea Party movement in the Republican party, the AOC Squad progressives will have their day and will be pushed back because ultimately, a great majority of Americans are centrists looking for a middle ground between almost every issue you can find. Abortion is a perfect example. From the polls I have seen, most people would oppose abortion up until the day of birth and most are opposed to making abortion illegal entirely. I think most settle into the middle ground that up until the end of some period (2nd trimester?) and for health emergencies to the mother and rape and incest, let the woman choose.
One person's misinformation is another's truth. And vice versa. The end game is that the majority will win out. Meaning, we will end up electing centrist president's like how Clinton pivoted to, or Pappy Bush, or someone not yet on the radar. Sometimes that takes time. Years. As far to the right as Trump is, (and god forbid he runs again and wins), Biden is to the left. Look at Reagan and Carter. Two successive presidents on the opposite side of the spectrum. America tried Carter and his inflation and energy policies drove the economy into a tailspin paving the way for Reagan conservatives and supply side economics. It is actually quite similar to today.
The pendulum swings. I think that is why Biden and the left are trying to enact as many of their policies and ideas as quickly as possible. They know that one day, maybe not in 2024, but one day, the Republicans will be back in power and start doing the same thing their way. What happens to the lemmings blindly following the extremist views? They either continue to make a big stink or the fade into the background waiting for their day to come again. I also think if there is ever a charismatic leader who can find a third middle way, people from both parties (independents?), will coalesce behind them.
I also think that this has been the case for hundreds of years. The difference now is social media and access to (hate) speech being easy for anyone with a phone or a keyboard. Politics is not binary. There is compromise and middle ground that can appeal to a majority. People understand and appreciate there is compromise. Most people just want to be left alone to pursue their own happiness. Just because some people are loud does not mean they represent the majority.
If you are looking for a point where MAGA or the Squadies are declared defeated, I do not think that will happen. Civil war is not always in the form of guns pointed at each other a la Gettysburg. We are in a civil war right now. The country cannot be more divided. The country is fighting with rhetoric, with State's rights, with local, state and federal legislation. Civil dialogue is, shall I say, on the back burner. We have become a country of hot takes and little thought. Both sides.
Look at CNN. Apparently, the new head has declared he wants to move the station to the middle away from the far left. I guess left does not pay. Too much fragmentation? The right has FOX and the left has too many competing voices. Watch FOX from 7pm to 11pm. Makes your head want to explode. But it is clear that all the anchors, Waters, Carlson, Hannity, Ingram, they all coordinate messaging. What i find is interesting is that FOX fights against policies, CNN fights against personalities. The anti-Trump focus is wrong. He loves that shit. Attack his ideas not his asshole insane personality. CNN just feeds into Trump's ego. Trump is like your teeth. Ignore him and he will rot away.
While I do agree it is as bad as it looks right now, I do not think the end game is catastrophic or is a literal war with weapons or that we have to send people to re-education camps. (Although why was Antifa carrying AR-15s to the rally yesterday?) The end game is that the majority wins out and retakes control. They get sick of the rhetoric on both sides and a centrist leader, maybe, hopefully, one from each party emerges to bring the heat down. Biden pledged that and it shows that people will vote for that. He failed on that front, but the American people will keep trying to find a centrist leader.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:40 AM on August 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
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What happened to the white people in South Africa who were tacit or explicit supporters of apartheid when it ended? What happened to the people who were in favour of the 1981 attempted coup in Spain? Or to the people in Greece who supported the more successful coups there, after its later transition to democracy?
posted by plonkee at 7:57 AM on August 30, 2022 [4 favorites]