What happens if you fail out of US Navy SEAL training?
August 30, 2022 7:12 AM Subscribe
Does one enlist in the Navy with the sole goal of becoming a Navy SEAL? And if they drop out of training, what becomes of their Navy career?
In today's NYT there's an upsetting article about deaths of men (only men are allowed to be SEALS, that's a question for another day) during Navy SEAL training.It seems the Navy doesn't find the deaths avoidable or problematic with 11 deaths since 1953, but these are young men at possibl peak physical health.
So it highlighted the death of one recent Yale grad who wanted to become a SEAL. His rank was just two above the lowest rank, which confuses me, because I thought all college grads started as Ensigns.
And apparently if one drops out of SEAL training, they are punished by working at a snack bar on base for the remainder of their enlistment. How is that possible? Sorry for my ignorance, I have little knowledge about the US military.
In today's NYT there's an upsetting article about deaths of men (only men are allowed to be SEALS, that's a question for another day) during Navy SEAL training.It seems the Navy doesn't find the deaths avoidable or problematic with 11 deaths since 1953, but these are young men at possibl peak physical health.
So it highlighted the death of one recent Yale grad who wanted to become a SEAL. His rank was just two above the lowest rank, which confuses me, because I thought all college grads started as Ensigns.
And apparently if one drops out of SEAL training, they are punished by working at a snack bar on base for the remainder of their enlistment. How is that possible? Sorry for my ignorance, I have little knowledge about the US military.
BTW, SEAL is a dangerous job, so no, they probably don't find a few deaths in training over 20+ years problematic. You have to train close to death because they will be in deadly situations. It's not a job that OSHA is going to protect you from in all situations.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:16 AM on August 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:16 AM on August 30, 2022 [6 favorites]
Best answer: So there's the process of joining the military and the process of being trained for a specific job.
Enlisting commits you to 4 years (in most cases) as a non-officer rank. When you enlist you can sometimes get a commitment for a particular job or Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) but your enlistment stands. So if you enlist directly into the SEALs and wash out, you still have to fulfill your enlistment contract in a different job (MOS/military occupational specialty). If you tried SEAL training after being in a particular MOS, you return to that.
Having a college degree qualifies you to become an officer, but you need to go through an officer training program (US Naval Academy--combines college and officer qual at a military institution; ROTC--combines civilian college with military training outside of class hours; or a "boot camp" style qualification course that takes place as a standalone program once you have a degree or are advanced towards a degree (the Marines call this Platoon Leader's Course--no idea what the Navy calls theirs).
posted by limagringo at 7:47 AM on August 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Enlisting commits you to 4 years (in most cases) as a non-officer rank. When you enlist you can sometimes get a commitment for a particular job or Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) but your enlistment stands. So if you enlist directly into the SEALs and wash out, you still have to fulfill your enlistment contract in a different job (MOS/military occupational specialty). If you tried SEAL training after being in a particular MOS, you return to that.
Having a college degree qualifies you to become an officer, but you need to go through an officer training program (US Naval Academy--combines college and officer qual at a military institution; ROTC--combines civilian college with military training outside of class hours; or a "boot camp" style qualification course that takes place as a standalone program once you have a degree or are advanced towards a degree (the Marines call this Platoon Leader's Course--no idea what the Navy calls theirs).
posted by limagringo at 7:47 AM on August 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: So it highlighted the death of one recent Yale grad who wanted to become a SEAL. His rank was just two above the lowest rank, which confuses me, because I thought all college grads started as Ensigns.
I think this is conflating other things. Pretty much, all officers start out as ensigns. Also, nearly all officers have college degrees before they become ensigns. However it is perfectly possible to enlist in the ranks as a college grad. Indeed I think some navy jobs are not available to officers, so if you want one of those you will have to enlist as a sailor.
posted by plonkee at 7:47 AM on August 30, 2022
I think this is conflating other things. Pretty much, all officers start out as ensigns. Also, nearly all officers have college degrees before they become ensigns. However it is perfectly possible to enlist in the ranks as a college grad. Indeed I think some navy jobs are not available to officers, so if you want one of those you will have to enlist as a sailor.
posted by plonkee at 7:47 AM on August 30, 2022
Abusing the edit window because I didn't read your more inside, which I just summarized...
posted by hwyengr at 7:48 AM on August 30, 2022
posted by hwyengr at 7:48 AM on August 30, 2022
He wasn’t a Yale grad. He left the university before his senior year while under investigation of sexual assault. This sounds awful and I’m sorry he died but just wanted to set the record straight. I don’t know if he graduated from another place.
posted by acidic at 7:52 AM on August 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by acidic at 7:52 AM on August 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Best answer: which confuses me, because I thought all college grads started as Ensigns.
No, this isn't true. You would have to go through Officer Candidate School or ROTC and get a commission to be an officer (there are a few other methods but they can't be SEALs); it isn't automatic. You can still enlist as a college grad and get some rank for that, likely why he was an E3 at the time.
There are definitely people who sign up just to go to BUD/S. When I went through basic training in 2000, you had to give up any guaranteed job you might have signed up for to go to the training (at least from basic). If you failed out, you'd end up in the fleet as an undesignated seaman, without a pre-set career path. they usually get the really crappy jobs, but can try out different paths to some extent (called "striking for rate") and be sent to a different career school later.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 7:56 AM on August 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
No, this isn't true. You would have to go through Officer Candidate School or ROTC and get a commission to be an officer (there are a few other methods but they can't be SEALs); it isn't automatic. You can still enlist as a college grad and get some rank for that, likely why he was an E3 at the time.
There are definitely people who sign up just to go to BUD/S. When I went through basic training in 2000, you had to give up any guaranteed job you might have signed up for to go to the training (at least from basic). If you failed out, you'd end up in the fleet as an undesignated seaman, without a pre-set career path. they usually get the really crappy jobs, but can try out different paths to some extent (called "striking for rate") and be sent to a different career school later.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 7:56 AM on August 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
And apparently if one drops out of SEAL training, they are punished by working at a snack bar on base for the remainder of their enlistment.
That's completely false.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:56 AM on August 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
That's completely false.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:56 AM on August 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm pretty sure SEALs are volunteers from the regular ranks, and if they fail out or drop out, they go back to doing their previous job.
It used to be that way, but you can enlist directly into Naval Occupational Specialty E300 (Special Warfare Operator) these days, or volunteer for it while in Basic Training before you have any "previous job" training. For people who do either of those things and fail out of SEAL training (which is actually several different schools, including underwater demolition and language training), then they're generally offered the option of assessing for another rating (job) or leaving the Navy.
However, if you're injured (as Seaman Caserta from the NYT story was), you may end up being assigned to some low-level tasking while you recover, and since he (probably) didn't have any other rating, he couldn't fill any "regular" role (e.g., clerk duty). Unfortunately, people in this status do sometimes get forgotten or discarded.
posted by Etrigan at 7:58 AM on August 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
It used to be that way, but you can enlist directly into Naval Occupational Specialty E300 (Special Warfare Operator) these days, or volunteer for it while in Basic Training before you have any "previous job" training. For people who do either of those things and fail out of SEAL training (which is actually several different schools, including underwater demolition and language training), then they're generally offered the option of assessing for another rating (job) or leaving the Navy.
However, if you're injured (as Seaman Caserta from the NYT story was), you may end up being assigned to some low-level tasking while you recover, and since he (probably) didn't have any other rating, he couldn't fill any "regular" role (e.g., clerk duty). Unfortunately, people in this status do sometimes get forgotten or discarded.
posted by Etrigan at 7:58 AM on August 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: acidic, thank you for setting the record straight about the sexual assault investigation. I wanted to highlight that, but obviously it's not a best answer. :P
posted by honey badger at 8:17 AM on August 30, 2022
posted by honey badger at 8:17 AM on August 30, 2022
Also, women are no longer excluded from special warfare. There are several Army Rangers who are women and at least one SWCC woman in the Navy. I have heard of women washing out of MARSOC, but it’s only a matter of time until one or more make it through. I do not know if there are any women PJs.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 8:21 AM on August 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by sara is disenchanted at 8:21 AM on August 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: SEALs are the elite of the elite of the elite, having evolved from the frogmen and UDT of WW2 doing beach surveys before amphib invasion. I'm surprised there are ONLY so many training casualties. But then, regular SEAL school, while challenging, is more about mental pressure and working through exhaustion, and the buddy system was another layer in the safety involved.
As others explained, most SEALs are enlisted. Only those who got in through ROTC or went through Annapolis, or OCS, get to be officers, not all college grads. SEAL teams were never large to begin with, and are deployed in only small numbers (usually just a squad or two, rarely a whole platoon). Don't need that many officers to start with. IIRC, a SEAL "Team" is lead by a navy Commander. Ensign barely gets to lead a squad and will often defer to the senior NCO (who'd have been in the teams much longer).
To answer the original question, if you quit BUD/S or had to be invalidated out, you have two paths.
1) if you are medically unfit, you'd be placed among the "recovering" folks, usually housed VERY close to the Coronado base, while you recover. This has apparently lead to depression as you're constantly reminded of "so close and yet so far". Jobs will be just busywork. When you recover, you go to 2) below.
2) If you are medically fit, you're sent to North Island NAS where you get evaluated and reassigned based on what the Navy needs and what you are good for.
posted by kschang at 9:25 AM on August 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
As others explained, most SEALs are enlisted. Only those who got in through ROTC or went through Annapolis, or OCS, get to be officers, not all college grads. SEAL teams were never large to begin with, and are deployed in only small numbers (usually just a squad or two, rarely a whole platoon). Don't need that many officers to start with. IIRC, a SEAL "Team" is lead by a navy Commander. Ensign barely gets to lead a squad and will often defer to the senior NCO (who'd have been in the teams much longer).
To answer the original question, if you quit BUD/S or had to be invalidated out, you have two paths.
1) if you are medically unfit, you'd be placed among the "recovering" folks, usually housed VERY close to the Coronado base, while you recover. This has apparently lead to depression as you're constantly reminded of "so close and yet so far". Jobs will be just busywork. When you recover, you go to 2) below.
2) If you are medically fit, you're sent to North Island NAS where you get evaluated and reassigned based on what the Navy needs and what you are good for.
posted by kschang at 9:25 AM on August 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Admiral McRaven's book "Make Your Bed: Little Things That Can Change Your Life...And Maybe the World" went into a good bit of detail about Navy Seal training. Based on that (assuming the book doesn't exaggerate) The_Vegatables comment above about training "close to death" sounds right to me. And I gather there's a bell (???) that you can ring at any time to resign.
posted by forthright at 9:55 AM on August 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by forthright at 9:55 AM on August 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
On mobile, so no links, sorry, but Dick Couch has written many excellent books on the various SpecOps branches and their training. The Warrior Elite is about BUD/S, and The Finishing School is about the training those guys do once they've won the opportunity to try and be a SEAL. (They get the trident at the end of said training, if they qualify.) It's been a while, but I think both books did talk about the guys who didn't make it for whatever reason.
posted by Tamanna at 1:16 PM on August 30, 2022
posted by Tamanna at 1:16 PM on August 30, 2022
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posted by The_Vegetables at 7:15 AM on August 30, 2022 [3 favorites]