Playbook for interacting with cis het white men?
August 1, 2022 7:19 AM Subscribe
I'm a cis queer white woman, and I have loved ones who are cis het white men. I want to understand their communication style(s) better. I'm looking for explanation resources and especially anything with pointers about how I can interact with them in their style (without trying to change it).
I have cis het white men in my life who communicate a lot like the stereotypical men described in Deborah Tannen's You Just Don't Understand, including:
* They don't actively ask questions during conversation.
* If you talk about a problem of yours, their default reaction is to suggest solutions (without asking if you want suggestions or if you're just venting).
* They bristle at anything that sounds like artificial therapy-speak.
I love these guys and they love me. I love having them in my life. It's not my place or my responsibility to "train" them or make them change how they interact. I just want to be able to blend in a little more with them conversationally and understand their communication style better.
I'm seeing this as like if I went to a foreign country or visited a community that's completely unlike mine. I would feel like, "Look, I just want to blend in respectfully, listen and learn, and not put my foot in it when I speak to them."
Any resources or recommendations are welcome, even stuff with big caveats attached (like "Yes, it's a Christian dating guide, but it's got these 2 really insightful chapters").
I have cis het white men in my life who communicate a lot like the stereotypical men described in Deborah Tannen's You Just Don't Understand, including:
* They don't actively ask questions during conversation.
* If you talk about a problem of yours, their default reaction is to suggest solutions (without asking if you want suggestions or if you're just venting).
* They bristle at anything that sounds like artificial therapy-speak.
I love these guys and they love me. I love having them in my life. It's not my place or my responsibility to "train" them or make them change how they interact. I just want to be able to blend in a little more with them conversationally and understand their communication style better.
I'm seeing this as like if I went to a foreign country or visited a community that's completely unlike mine. I would feel like, "Look, I just want to blend in respectfully, listen and learn, and not put my foot in it when I speak to them."
Any resources or recommendations are welcome, even stuff with big caveats attached (like "Yes, it's a Christian dating guide, but it's got these 2 really insightful chapters").
As a probably not-entirely-neutrotypical cis het white guy who is currently separating from a spouse, I have no advice you should trust. But, a few comments to consider:
This might sound harsh - I genuinely appologize if so and I am absolutely extrapolating from my own experience in ways that might not apply to you at all. But, do consider that they might not actually want you to be both their friend/lover and also their psychiatrist. In the same way that you don't want their advice when you're just venting. Not every relationship has to be all things to all people. (I have plenty of therapists already without friends volunteering without solicitation. There are people I care about but just can't talk to any more because they cannot stop themselves from offering an analysis that I didn't ask for.)
Sympathy and best wishes. And I will be following this thread for suggestions when approaching this in the future from the other side.
posted by eotvos at 8:28 AM on August 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
They don't actively ask questions during conversation.This part, I find kind of weird. Actively engaging in a conversation is a learned skill. But, most adults sure ought to have learned it. If they can't do that and you value their company for other reasons, be bold and volunteer information without being asked. If you have the time and inclination, tell them about it and how it makes you feel. Hopefully they're not doing it on purpose and will be interested to hear about it.
If you talk about a problem of yours, their default reaction is to suggest solutions (without asking if you want suggestions or if you're just venting).This is definitly a learned skill. Gentle corrections from a friend are invaluable. It's not your job to fix them, but they'll probably be grateful if you decide to. I have been very grateful to be corrected about similar things in the past.
They bristle at anything that sounds like artificial therapy-speak.Whenever vocabulary that sounds like Freud or Jung come up, I find it incredibly hard to pay attention to the the rest of the conversation. I recognize those frameworks are useful for understanding many things, but they're so entirely contrary to my world view that it really does make it challenging for me to believe anything else that is said.
This might sound harsh - I genuinely appologize if so and I am absolutely extrapolating from my own experience in ways that might not apply to you at all. But, do consider that they might not actually want you to be both their friend/lover and also their psychiatrist. In the same way that you don't want their advice when you're just venting. Not every relationship has to be all things to all people. (I have plenty of therapists already without friends volunteering without solicitation. There are people I care about but just can't talk to any more because they cannot stop themselves from offering an analysis that I didn't ask for.)
Sympathy and best wishes. And I will be following this thread for suggestions when approaching this in the future from the other side.
posted by eotvos at 8:28 AM on August 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
As a cis man, I've struggled with not doing the problem-solving thing ever since I became aware of it (especially since some women in my life do it too). I think the biggest obstacles for me are a) on a personal level, I feel threatened by other people's pain and vulnerability, which creates the desire to remove those things by applying a solution; and b) on a practical level, saying "wow, that sounds hard" feels fake and superficial--I feel a need to engage constructively with what the person is saying by bringing in my own experiences or other ways of looking at the problem, which can easily be read as problem-solving behavior. More generally, I think a lot of men feel a need to be seen and recognized as helping. So I really like rustybullrake's approach. "Hey, it would be really helpful to me right now if I could just talk through something" - and when they say "Wow, that sucks, have you tried X?" just gently be like "Hey, I just need to talk through this, I'm not looking for advice right now."
posted by derrinyet at 8:51 AM on August 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by derrinyet at 8:51 AM on August 1, 2022 [5 favorites]
Sounds like you know a bunch of engineers. Just tell them you want them to ask you questions and not to try to make suggestions. Be prepared for the subject of the conversation to become conversation itself.
posted by michaelh at 8:56 AM on August 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by michaelh at 8:56 AM on August 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
In terms of reframing, I reimagine what I want from the relationship. I can love someone deeply and hope they are well, but not invest in a friendship with them. If they aren’t asking me questions about myself or engaging in actual conversation, then I need to stop expecting conversation from them. Perhaps they can be my friend or a loved one who shows up on holidays, or quietly mows the lawn when I’m in the hospital, or is just wants to sit at Friday night dinner but can’t express themselves. Perhaps they are fun at a backyard cook out but never text to see how you’re doing. Those are all ok, but don’t expect a fish to fly.
Basically I’ve stopped expecting female friendships from men. Obviously this isn’t everyone’s solution, but it works for me. My husband is the one man who defies typical male friendship “standards” that I’ve experience the rest of my life. (I’m a cis het woman if it matters).
posted by raccoon409 at 9:01 AM on August 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
Basically I’ve stopped expecting female friendships from men. Obviously this isn’t everyone’s solution, but it works for me. My husband is the one man who defies typical male friendship “standards” that I’ve experience the rest of my life. (I’m a cis het woman if it matters).
posted by raccoon409 at 9:01 AM on August 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
What do you actually want to change about your interactions? Are you trying to make these men more comfortable, or make yourself more comfortable? It's hard to know how to answer without knowing that, and your question does not give much detail.
posted by wesleyac at 9:04 AM on August 1, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by wesleyac at 9:04 AM on August 1, 2022 [10 favorites]
On the not asking questions (IE exhibiting active listening behaviour), do they also do this with their fellow guys? Having that as comparison might tell me more if this is just their manner, or they're not actually invested in the conversation. It does also correlate with how they perceive you as a potential romantic interest, ime - so if you're not a woman in that category (even if they never ever mean it) you're not likely to get their interested persona.
If my sense of these men in particular is right, their way of conversational bonding can strike you as quite unidirectional. Reciprocity isn't from engaging with your conversation content but from giving you their time, even if they might not remember most of it (and if they do, the recollection will come at the oddest times, as it'll seem to you). But it's also why i find guys consider themselves not particularly people with a lot of friends because it's the kind of mode that makes you agreeable without particularly being deep with anyone, until some crisis happens and then whoever comes through gets their lifelong gratitude.
posted by cendawanita at 9:10 AM on August 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
If my sense of these men in particular is right, their way of conversational bonding can strike you as quite unidirectional. Reciprocity isn't from engaging with your conversation content but from giving you their time, even if they might not remember most of it (and if they do, the recollection will come at the oddest times, as it'll seem to you). But it's also why i find guys consider themselves not particularly people with a lot of friends because it's the kind of mode that makes you agreeable without particularly being deep with anyone, until some crisis happens and then whoever comes through gets their lifelong gratitude.
posted by cendawanita at 9:10 AM on August 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
My experience with stereotypical white males is that they talk about experiences in a way that eschews vulnerability. Like, a (steteotypical!) woman might talk about a run in with a coworker and how it upset her and that she wasn't sure she'd handled it correctly and best case is that her female friends will offer reassurance and empathy. A sterotypical man will talk about how obviously the other guy was an idiot and how he himself managed to one up him (or how he'll get his own back). At most, he'll talk about how pissed off he is. Then his friends will agree and offer their own stories on how other people are idiots.
This is grossly oversimplified.
If you want to emulate that, everything you say about yourself in a group setting has to be based on the assumption that you are kind of awesome and have no self doubts and other people can annoy you but they can't hurt your feelings. Cultivate an air of playful showing off and teasing the others that you're better at x thing than them - that's how these types of men bond.
That's not to say men never say they feel insecure. They will in more intimate settings or with close friends one on one. Just, this is a stereotypical male socialising experience.
posted by Omnomnom at 9:13 AM on August 1, 2022 [10 favorites]
This is grossly oversimplified.
If you want to emulate that, everything you say about yourself in a group setting has to be based on the assumption that you are kind of awesome and have no self doubts and other people can annoy you but they can't hurt your feelings. Cultivate an air of playful showing off and teasing the others that you're better at x thing than them - that's how these types of men bond.
That's not to say men never say they feel insecure. They will in more intimate settings or with close friends one on one. Just, this is a stereotypical male socialising experience.
posted by Omnomnom at 9:13 AM on August 1, 2022 [10 favorites]
The flip side of the "don't ask questions" thing is that talking about yourself without having been asked is a lot more acceptable. You can just start a conversation (or step into a pause in a conversation) with "So you won't believe what happened to me this morning," or whatever. And then, if your conversation partner says "Oh?" or "Yeah, what happened?" or whatever, then you have the floor and have permission to tell your story, just like you would if someone had asked "How was your day?"
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:24 AM on August 1, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:24 AM on August 1, 2022 [10 favorites]
* If you talk about a problem of yours,
What are they interested in? Do some research, know your wrenches, or car models, or better bone up on a topic everyone should know about, say, SpaceX. Stuff, actual physical stuff. Size, quality, effectiveness of a technique, like say how to unstick a bolt.
Feel free to mess with their opinions, a hard bit of data that a specific ford is better than chevy will go a long way. But not if they're into european cars. Data counts. They'll talk for hours on a hobby. But we are a different species, we do know about this theoretical concept, feelings, but what size spanner do you use to fix them?
posted by sammyo at 9:33 AM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
What are they interested in? Do some research, know your wrenches, or car models, or better bone up on a topic everyone should know about, say, SpaceX. Stuff, actual physical stuff. Size, quality, effectiveness of a technique, like say how to unstick a bolt.
Feel free to mess with their opinions, a hard bit of data that a specific ford is better than chevy will go a long way. But not if they're into european cars. Data counts. They'll talk for hours on a hobby. But we are a different species, we do know about this theoretical concept, feelings, but what size spanner do you use to fix them?
posted by sammyo at 9:33 AM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
In a sufficiently bro-y setting, the way you set a conversational boundary is by turning whatever the other person was doing into a joke. If you're griping about your boss, and the guy you're talking to says "You should go in there and tell her exactly what you think of her," then "I wasn't asking for advice" may or may not work, since it feels... well, artificial and like therapy-speak. But you can get good mileage out of "Hah! Yeah, just tear her a new one! I bet that'd go over real well, she just loooooooves honest feedback, hehehe. So anyway, then she was like..."
On one level, this is fucking annoying. On another level, though, you're doing the same thing two women would do in that context: You're affirming that you still think positively of him, but also making it clear that you didn't want that advice. A woman might do that more explicitly: "Hey, [friend], I love that you're trying to look out for me, but I really just want to vent about this for a minute." The guy version does it indirectly, with a joke for the affirmation (guys use jokes so much as a way of saying "I like you, please don't take this the wrong way"), and a sudden return to the story to reject his attempt at changing the subject.
(As a woman, you may not be able to get away with this with everyone. Some men are assholes who will see it as stepping out of your role, and will want you to take their advice no matter what as a show of submission. Fuck those guys. The ones this will work on are clueless non-asshole men—ones who recognize your autonomy but don't really speak Woman fluently)
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:43 AM on August 1, 2022 [24 favorites]
On one level, this is fucking annoying. On another level, though, you're doing the same thing two women would do in that context: You're affirming that you still think positively of him, but also making it clear that you didn't want that advice. A woman might do that more explicitly: "Hey, [friend], I love that you're trying to look out for me, but I really just want to vent about this for a minute." The guy version does it indirectly, with a joke for the affirmation (guys use jokes so much as a way of saying "I like you, please don't take this the wrong way"), and a sudden return to the story to reject his attempt at changing the subject.
(As a woman, you may not be able to get away with this with everyone. Some men are assholes who will see it as stepping out of your role, and will want you to take their advice no matter what as a show of submission. Fuck those guys. The ones this will work on are clueless non-asshole men—ones who recognize your autonomy but don't really speak Woman fluently)
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:43 AM on August 1, 2022 [24 favorites]
I'm a white cis lady. I have been told over the years by multiple people, coworkers specifically, not really my friends, that I argue like a man or lead like a man or problem solve like a man. Which. Eye roll. But maybe this makes my experience relevant to your goals.
The only remarkable thing about how I act/talk/whatever is that I'm extremely confident. Really that's the big secret. I just assume that everything I say is good and important and that people will be better off for having heard me say it. No matter who else is in the room, my input is just as valid.
Like ok other people's opinions are nice, I guess, but they're wholly irrelevant to the point I'm making right now. My voice will be heard, and then we can consider other things. I don't need to ask questions to hear myself talk. You have a problem? Obviously you're talking to me about it so I can fix it for you, because I have the good opinions.
Now, I look at this and see that a lot of my interaction style is because I'm an asshole, but countless numbers of people over the years have interpreted this as a "masculine" trait. Interpret that how you will, I guess.
I'm also funny, and lots of shitty men just don't think it's possible for women to be funny. So rather than meet me and think oh women are funny they meet me and think oh this woman is funny like a man. That's part of it too I think for sure.
posted by phunniemee at 9:57 AM on August 1, 2022 [26 favorites]
The only remarkable thing about how I act/talk/whatever is that I'm extremely confident. Really that's the big secret. I just assume that everything I say is good and important and that people will be better off for having heard me say it. No matter who else is in the room, my input is just as valid.
Like ok other people's opinions are nice, I guess, but they're wholly irrelevant to the point I'm making right now. My voice will be heard, and then we can consider other things. I don't need to ask questions to hear myself talk. You have a problem? Obviously you're talking to me about it so I can fix it for you, because I have the good opinions.
Now, I look at this and see that a lot of my interaction style is because I'm an asshole, but countless numbers of people over the years have interpreted this as a "masculine" trait. Interpret that how you will, I guess.
I'm also funny, and lots of shitty men just don't think it's possible for women to be funny. So rather than meet me and think oh women are funny they meet me and think oh this woman is funny like a man. That's part of it too I think for sure.
posted by phunniemee at 9:57 AM on August 1, 2022 [26 favorites]
You asked about "men", but
I'm a woman, and that's how I participate in conversations lately :( Perhaps I was always like that, and begin to realize it only in the last few years?
Anyway, what if you ask this question as "about people who participate in conversations in this way?" instead of "some particular species of men"?
posted by Sky12 at 10:01 AM on August 1, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'm a woman, and that's how I participate in conversations lately :( Perhaps I was always like that, and begin to realize it only in the last few years?
Anyway, what if you ask this question as "about people who participate in conversations in this way?" instead of "some particular species of men"?
posted by Sky12 at 10:01 AM on August 1, 2022 [10 favorites]
Some people have a conversational ease across different groups and different styles. I assume this is what the poster is asking for. Example: I work with highly educated engineers in offices and maybe-not-as-educated welders on site. They require different styles of communication. Being able to communicate with both is a skill. Often these folks are actually very good listeners but the right delivery helps. They're listening for something specific.
First, be yourself. Speak in an unapologetically direct way about your experience. Say what you mean. Don't say something indirect and expect your meaning to be inferred.
Second, be short. If you want to get questions you can't tell everything up front.
Third, leave out the doubt. Don't express doubt about the correctness of your feelings or your position UNLESS you really feel it. You might be used to expressing doubt as a way of bringing people along with your story or as a way of communicating your self-awareness. You can drop this for the most part. It is not about high confidence, rather the absence of a need for reassurance.
Fourth, call out disagreements or point out errors. Give shit or be funny about it if needed. Again, don't doubt yourself on this.
Fifth, laugh off stuff that is uncomfortable, stupid, or wrong. Appear robust. Have fun when you can. I'm an overly serious person and this is my main defense. You can also bring this stuff up later if you are a bit stunned by it in the moment.
Sixth, never be afraid to ask about something already said long after it's said. Like "Wait, did you say X did Y??" or "Wait, did I get that right, an XYZ is coming tomorrow??" Checking your understanding is common, and a hundred times better than assuming something incorrect.
These are the broad strokes that work for me personally. There's a lot that's not perfect in this approach. It's specific to the people, the area, and so on. I think you'll find these folks will seem less stereotypical and more engaged once you have a mutually agreeable style. I hope you find clear and straightforward ways to have great conversations with these people that you love, and that love you back.
posted by fake at 10:04 AM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
First, be yourself. Speak in an unapologetically direct way about your experience. Say what you mean. Don't say something indirect and expect your meaning to be inferred.
Second, be short. If you want to get questions you can't tell everything up front.
Third, leave out the doubt. Don't express doubt about the correctness of your feelings or your position UNLESS you really feel it. You might be used to expressing doubt as a way of bringing people along with your story or as a way of communicating your self-awareness. You can drop this for the most part. It is not about high confidence, rather the absence of a need for reassurance.
Fourth, call out disagreements or point out errors. Give shit or be funny about it if needed. Again, don't doubt yourself on this.
Fifth, laugh off stuff that is uncomfortable, stupid, or wrong. Appear robust. Have fun when you can. I'm an overly serious person and this is my main defense. You can also bring this stuff up later if you are a bit stunned by it in the moment.
Sixth, never be afraid to ask about something already said long after it's said. Like "Wait, did you say X did Y??" or "Wait, did I get that right, an XYZ is coming tomorrow??" Checking your understanding is common, and a hundred times better than assuming something incorrect.
These are the broad strokes that work for me personally. There's a lot that's not perfect in this approach. It's specific to the people, the area, and so on. I think you'll find these folks will seem less stereotypical and more engaged once you have a mutually agreeable style. I hope you find clear and straightforward ways to have great conversations with these people that you love, and that love you back.
posted by fake at 10:04 AM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
I do the problem solving thing. And like, while I understand some people don't want me to do that, and I try to respect their wishes, I really don't understand why it's such a problem. I'm honestly trying to help. I see you feeling confused or hurt or vulnerable (and maybe I'm making an assumption that you don't want to feel confused or hurt or vulnerable), and I try to think of things that will make you feel less confused or hurt or vulnerable. From my perspective, it's like if you told me you didn't have enough money to pay your electric bill, so I wrote you a check, and instead of using that money to pay your electric bill, you get upset because you just want to talk about not being able to pay your electric bill. It's just a weird way of thinking to me. So yeah, my advice to you is, when someone does this in conversation, remember that they're trying to be helpful. They're trying to leave you in a better place than when they found you. It's not because of some impulse to assert domination or something.
My wife is a therapist, so I run into the "artificial therapy speak" issue a lot. My problem there is that it sounds like you're using a lot of buzzwords and possibly not knowing what they mean. Like, OK, you read your psychology textbook. So did I. Let's think outside of the box and synergize some externalities on the time horizon. But my major (history) didn't allow me to just quote my textbook. I had to synthesize a bunch of different ideas and then present them in my own words. So like, I might talk to you the Jungian individuation of the self, but I probably wouldn't use the words "individuation of the self", because to me, that sounds like I'm just reading out of a textbook. And for people who haven't studied psychology, it comes across as kind of exclusionary. All disciplines have their terms of art, but I wouldn't expect you to immediately understand what I meant if I referred to something as pre-Kleisthenian, for example. Why would you, unless you'd studied Classical Greek history? IMO, using a term of art in conversation with someone who hasn't studied that is just a power move to establish your authority as someone who has studied it. If I'm trying to make a point about pre-Kleisthenian Athens with someone who wasn't a history or classics major, I can paraphrase to explain the concept more clearly. You can probably do the same with therapy-speak.
But also, a lot of people (not just guys) are turned off by therapy-speak. It's pretty easy to misuse psychological concepts to be manipulative, sometimes even encouraged (psych is a common major for sports coaches, in order to be able to "motivate" players), and even if that's not what you're trying to do, it can come off as maybe a bit triggering. For me, as someone who has some anxiety and depression stuff, it can come across as othering and ableist, and can feel like it's invalidating or minimizing my feelings because they fit an established pattern. ("Oh, he's having a panic attack again.") It feels almost deterministic in some cases, like you don't have free will and your actions are just a product of your neuroses. Nobody wants to feel like an archetype; they want to feel like they're a unique individual having unique experiences. In that sense, therapy-speak is kind of the flip side of the problem solving coin.
I don't know if there's any blanket advice on how to speak to nearly half the population, because there are a lot of different ways to be a guy. But personally, I watch a lot of sports, and I find sports analogies useful in conversation. I like analogical examples in general, but some of my hobbies can be pretty esoteric and hard for other people to understand what I'm talking about, whereas sports are a widely understood cultural shorthand. I can say that so-and-so is my Scottie Pippen, and anyone who knows who Scottie Pippen is knows exactly what I mean by that. Having an understanding of the basic rules, history, and currently prominent figures in various sports (baseball, football, and basketball in the US; hockey in Canada; soccer in Europe) is helpful for communicating with guys who like sports. And if you do this, and succeed, it'll build instant rapport.
On preview: one reason I think the "men" framing is appropriate is because, having observed adult women interacting with their parents, I think a lot of women have been socialized to just... not have opinions. I think that's actually part of the appeal of therapy-speak, in that it legitimizes an opinion via appeal to authority. Whereas I, as a guy, don't need to legitimize my opinion. I'm allowed to have opinions, and you're stuck hearing them, man.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:07 AM on August 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
My wife is a therapist, so I run into the "artificial therapy speak" issue a lot. My problem there is that it sounds like you're using a lot of buzzwords and possibly not knowing what they mean. Like, OK, you read your psychology textbook. So did I. Let's think outside of the box and synergize some externalities on the time horizon. But my major (history) didn't allow me to just quote my textbook. I had to synthesize a bunch of different ideas and then present them in my own words. So like, I might talk to you the Jungian individuation of the self, but I probably wouldn't use the words "individuation of the self", because to me, that sounds like I'm just reading out of a textbook. And for people who haven't studied psychology, it comes across as kind of exclusionary. All disciplines have their terms of art, but I wouldn't expect you to immediately understand what I meant if I referred to something as pre-Kleisthenian, for example. Why would you, unless you'd studied Classical Greek history? IMO, using a term of art in conversation with someone who hasn't studied that is just a power move to establish your authority as someone who has studied it. If I'm trying to make a point about pre-Kleisthenian Athens with someone who wasn't a history or classics major, I can paraphrase to explain the concept more clearly. You can probably do the same with therapy-speak.
But also, a lot of people (not just guys) are turned off by therapy-speak. It's pretty easy to misuse psychological concepts to be manipulative, sometimes even encouraged (psych is a common major for sports coaches, in order to be able to "motivate" players), and even if that's not what you're trying to do, it can come off as maybe a bit triggering. For me, as someone who has some anxiety and depression stuff, it can come across as othering and ableist, and can feel like it's invalidating or minimizing my feelings because they fit an established pattern. ("Oh, he's having a panic attack again.") It feels almost deterministic in some cases, like you don't have free will and your actions are just a product of your neuroses. Nobody wants to feel like an archetype; they want to feel like they're a unique individual having unique experiences. In that sense, therapy-speak is kind of the flip side of the problem solving coin.
I don't know if there's any blanket advice on how to speak to nearly half the population, because there are a lot of different ways to be a guy. But personally, I watch a lot of sports, and I find sports analogies useful in conversation. I like analogical examples in general, but some of my hobbies can be pretty esoteric and hard for other people to understand what I'm talking about, whereas sports are a widely understood cultural shorthand. I can say that so-and-so is my Scottie Pippen, and anyone who knows who Scottie Pippen is knows exactly what I mean by that. Having an understanding of the basic rules, history, and currently prominent figures in various sports (baseball, football, and basketball in the US; hockey in Canada; soccer in Europe) is helpful for communicating with guys who like sports. And if you do this, and succeed, it'll build instant rapport.
On preview: one reason I think the "men" framing is appropriate is because, having observed adult women interacting with their parents, I think a lot of women have been socialized to just... not have opinions. I think that's actually part of the appeal of therapy-speak, in that it legitimizes an opinion via appeal to authority. Whereas I, as a guy, don't need to legitimize my opinion. I'm allowed to have opinions, and you're stuck hearing them, man.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:07 AM on August 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
Oh, and one more thing, about questions. When I'm presenting information, I hope to avoid questions. My goal, when preparing the presentation, was to anticipate potential questions and incorporate them into my presentation, obviating the need for you to ask. If someone asks a question, it means I didn't do a good enough job preparing. So if I don't ask you a question, it's quite possibly a compliment. You're so knowledgeable and well prepared that there's no other information I need from you.
Alternatively, of course, it could be a sign that I'm not interested in the conversation. It takes skill to figure out which applies.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:11 AM on August 1, 2022
Alternatively, of course, it could be a sign that I'm not interested in the conversation. It takes skill to figure out which applies.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:11 AM on August 1, 2022
As these answers indicate there is no one way people communicate and while there are gendered stereotypes for interaction styles they are nowhere near universal. For very close friends, family members and intimate partners you can have a meta conversation about your preferred communication styles and what you are looking for in a listener...and then be prepared to be frustrated about the "no solutions" bit because that is amazingly hard thing for us problem solvers to deal with. I've mostly been trained out of that habit but is a hard one to follow even if you have the emotional IQ to know it is an issue.
On the other hand if you are talking to less close friends or coworkers or people participating in your hobby, etc. you can frame the conversation that you are venting rather than looking for solutions. It is a recognition that everyone does conversations differently.
As for the artificial therapy speak point, I feel it is hard to know more without the examples of the words and what they bristle at. Again, if these are close people you can have the meta-conversation but otherwise I think you have to translate your words and idioms and metaphors to whom you are having the conversation. The whole "know your audience" principal. I work for a global company and interact with people all around the world, many of which English isn't their first language. The more abstract and less universal the reference is, the more apt for there to be confusion. There is less bristling which is perhaps because it is a business setting vs. an interpersonal one but I know to be understood I have to use what my audience expects.
Lastly on the questions...it is hard to say what is going on...kevinbelt offers one suggestion that a lack of questions is a sign you did good...I think that is likely an extreme example...that sounds more like a successful presentation than a successful interpersonal exchange. Do you know what types of questions you want? Is it the "good listener hygiene ones" that effectively amount to "and then what happened?" or do you want ones that interrogate the story you are telling?
posted by mmascolino at 10:40 AM on August 1, 2022
On the other hand if you are talking to less close friends or coworkers or people participating in your hobby, etc. you can frame the conversation that you are venting rather than looking for solutions. It is a recognition that everyone does conversations differently.
As for the artificial therapy speak point, I feel it is hard to know more without the examples of the words and what they bristle at. Again, if these are close people you can have the meta-conversation but otherwise I think you have to translate your words and idioms and metaphors to whom you are having the conversation. The whole "know your audience" principal. I work for a global company and interact with people all around the world, many of which English isn't their first language. The more abstract and less universal the reference is, the more apt for there to be confusion. There is less bristling which is perhaps because it is a business setting vs. an interpersonal one but I know to be understood I have to use what my audience expects.
Lastly on the questions...it is hard to say what is going on...kevinbelt offers one suggestion that a lack of questions is a sign you did good...I think that is likely an extreme example...that sounds more like a successful presentation than a successful interpersonal exchange. Do you know what types of questions you want? Is it the "good listener hygiene ones" that effectively amount to "and then what happened?" or do you want ones that interrogate the story you are telling?
posted by mmascolino at 10:40 AM on August 1, 2022
Response by poster: These responses are so helpful! Thank you, and please keep them coming!
Replying and adding some thoughts:
- I got a bit too specific with my original post. The bullet list was meant to be examples, not the specific issues I wanted pointers on. Happy to keep getting your thoughts on them, but feel free to bring in other things I hadn't thought of.
- My goal is to feel comfortable in conversation with them and to modify my own expectations. For example, I know these guys are not likely to ask "Do you want advice or are you just venting?" And it doesn't feel worth my time to insist that they change that. I'm happy just going into the conversation knowing this fact and working with it.
- I know what they're into and the general structure of their lives, and my conversation style is to ask questions, so I'll happily throw out "What's new with $hobby? How's $job going?" as conversation starters. They know the same about me, but they don't usually ask questions. A lot of my male friends don't. That's a place where I get stuck. I guess just start talking about a topic I want to talk about, like my job or my artistic practice? And try to gauge if they're interested? It's hard because I get sensitive about feeling like I'm fishing for attention in a bad way, like someone who does a dramatic sigh and expects others to ask what's wrong.
- I felt awkward limiting the gender on this question. But the framing I meant was "I have a bunch of this type of guy in my life. How can I better interact with them? Here are some examples of their style." I didn't mean it like "How can I better interact with any people who use this style?"
posted by cadge at 10:41 AM on August 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
Replying and adding some thoughts:
- I got a bit too specific with my original post. The bullet list was meant to be examples, not the specific issues I wanted pointers on. Happy to keep getting your thoughts on them, but feel free to bring in other things I hadn't thought of.
- My goal is to feel comfortable in conversation with them and to modify my own expectations. For example, I know these guys are not likely to ask "Do you want advice or are you just venting?" And it doesn't feel worth my time to insist that they change that. I'm happy just going into the conversation knowing this fact and working with it.
- I know what they're into and the general structure of their lives, and my conversation style is to ask questions, so I'll happily throw out "What's new with $hobby? How's $job going?" as conversation starters. They know the same about me, but they don't usually ask questions. A lot of my male friends don't. That's a place where I get stuck. I guess just start talking about a topic I want to talk about, like my job or my artistic practice? And try to gauge if they're interested? It's hard because I get sensitive about feeling like I'm fishing for attention in a bad way, like someone who does a dramatic sigh and expects others to ask what's wrong.
- I felt awkward limiting the gender on this question. But the framing I meant was "I have a bunch of this type of guy in my life. How can I better interact with them? Here are some examples of their style." I didn't mean it like "How can I better interact with any people who use this style?"
posted by cadge at 10:41 AM on August 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: An example of therapy-speak that would make them roll their eyes would be "When you do ABC, it makes me feel XYZ, and so I react by LMNOP." Now that I've written this out, they're probably reacting to it sounding rehearsed and therefore inauthentic. If it came out way more conversationally, they'd probably be fine.
posted by cadge at 10:44 AM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by cadge at 10:44 AM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
I had a hilarious conversation with my partner the other day. We had run into an old girlfriend of his and I was remarking that she was fun to talk to and he, a stereotypical cis het white man who never and I mean never asks questions in a conversation, said “Yeah but you never learn anything about her because she’s always asking you questions about yourself.” The idea of asking questions himself has not crossed his mind; instead he thinks she’s the one with the problem and she should just hold forth about herself without being asked. So, there you go. Vive la difference, I guess.
posted by HotToddy at 10:45 AM on August 1, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 10:45 AM on August 1, 2022 [17 favorites]
> "Look, I just want to blend in respectfully, listen and learn, and not put my foot in it when I speak to them."
I feel like you've answered your own question here. If you want to blend in with someone else's conversation style, then the answer is always going to be the same, almost regardless of the style that you're targeting - hang back a bit, let the others take the lead, listen to them & then once you've recognised the patterns you can mirror their style back. Absolutely the same would apply to a lone cishet guy who wanders into a social setting that's mostly female - he should hold back for a while & contribute only when he's sure that he can match the tone of what he's already heard.
If they don't ask questions - then probably you shouldn't either. Maybe it's just not their thing to ask questions, and if I've understood the question correctly, the goal here is that you learn their thing.
posted by rd45 at 10:46 AM on August 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
I feel like you've answered your own question here. If you want to blend in with someone else's conversation style, then the answer is always going to be the same, almost regardless of the style that you're targeting - hang back a bit, let the others take the lead, listen to them & then once you've recognised the patterns you can mirror their style back. Absolutely the same would apply to a lone cishet guy who wanders into a social setting that's mostly female - he should hold back for a while & contribute only when he's sure that he can match the tone of what he's already heard.
If they don't ask questions - then probably you shouldn't either. Maybe it's just not their thing to ask questions, and if I've understood the question correctly, the goal here is that you learn their thing.
posted by rd45 at 10:46 AM on August 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
I guess I'd say the male alternative to asking a bunch of questions isn't just "holding forth about yourself without being asked." The way you do this is you come up with a relatively compressed anecdote or story about yourself that is funny, bizarre, interesting, whatever, and functions as a conversational opener. You toss that out there and see how the other people in the conversation react to it, often by sharing something of their own or joking about what you said, then, if you really need to, follow up with more detail, or let the conversation flow naturally around the topics you've set. The way you get your "I want to be listened to" needs met in this context is by actively working with the material everyone else in the conversation provides, not waiting passively to be questioned.
posted by derrinyet at 10:51 AM on August 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by derrinyet at 10:51 AM on August 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm a cis het white guy who has always had mostly women friends and now spends as much time in queer spaces/community as possible – I've never quite figured out cis/het men.
My advice from experience is that you either go in and try to fight for your needs by speaking up (which I hear you don't want to do), or work on compartmentalization. Recognize what you love about someone and why and accentuate those moments. Build in more space and time for the connections you value and try to minimize the times when you feel alienated. If my cup is filled with a particular friend/family member because we got to play foosball together or whatever, I can roll with their somewhat narcissistic conversational style.
Similarly, I've learned to set my expecations when sharing my own story/life in a way that helps me get a a net positive expreience. I don't share in a particularly vulnerable way, but try to think of it more as telling a story — this insulates me somewhat from the pain of an unempathetic response. I try to value that they made space for me even if I didn't feel really seen; I try value their solutions as an alternative perspective that might help me imagine a different way of being; etc.
Two caveats: 1. this works insofar as you ARE getting your needs met elsewhere, otherwise you're just going to be stuck and frustrated in these loops over and over. 2. for me once I started down the path of asking "what do I really get from these relationships, what actually works?" I ended having to move on from a number of those relationships :/ There were some people who I realized I was attached to and wanted to be close with but their communication styles meant I was perpetually feeling lonely and alienated with them. As always opening these hard boxes can precipitate unexpected change.
posted by wemayfreeze at 10:53 AM on August 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
My advice from experience is that you either go in and try to fight for your needs by speaking up (which I hear you don't want to do), or work on compartmentalization. Recognize what you love about someone and why and accentuate those moments. Build in more space and time for the connections you value and try to minimize the times when you feel alienated. If my cup is filled with a particular friend/family member because we got to play foosball together or whatever, I can roll with their somewhat narcissistic conversational style.
Similarly, I've learned to set my expecations when sharing my own story/life in a way that helps me get a a net positive expreience. I don't share in a particularly vulnerable way, but try to think of it more as telling a story — this insulates me somewhat from the pain of an unempathetic response. I try to value that they made space for me even if I didn't feel really seen; I try value their solutions as an alternative perspective that might help me imagine a different way of being; etc.
Two caveats: 1. this works insofar as you ARE getting your needs met elsewhere, otherwise you're just going to be stuck and frustrated in these loops over and over. 2. for me once I started down the path of asking "what do I really get from these relationships, what actually works?" I ended having to move on from a number of those relationships :/ There were some people who I realized I was attached to and wanted to be close with but their communication styles meant I was perpetually feeling lonely and alienated with them. As always opening these hard boxes can precipitate unexpected change.
posted by wemayfreeze at 10:53 AM on August 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
One conversational style is a sort of story-trading. You don't really ask questions, but you can trade stories or snippets of things. So if someone tells you about what they did today, you can just respond with some other anecdote that seems related. There's no explicit "hey, what did you do today?" but the implication is, because I told you something, you can tell me something in return that's related or similar or thematically relevant.
- "such and such"
"oh yeah, such-and-such is happening a lot, isn't it? Why, yesterday I foo-and-such!"
- "Anyway, I've been doing foo and bar lately."
"Cool! I've been doing fizz and buzz."
- "That reminds me of the time Old Man Buzzer did something weird. Let me tell you about it."
And so on.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:55 AM on August 1, 2022 [12 favorites]
- "such and such"
"oh yeah, such-and-such is happening a lot, isn't it? Why, yesterday I foo-and-such!"
- "Anyway, I've been doing foo and bar lately."
"Cool! I've been doing fizz and buzz."
- "That reminds me of the time Old Man Buzzer did something weird. Let me tell you about it."
And so on.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:55 AM on August 1, 2022 [12 favorites]
As a cis het woman who also super sucks at asking questions in the way you describe, it's because actually, I don't tend to know as much about other peoples' lives as they think I do?? I'm not on a ton of social media, for example, so if someone is waiting for me to ask them about their new nibling well, I'm not gonna, because I don't know they have one. My memory is for shit, so if you got a new job 6 months ago and mentioned it then, I might not have that info handy in my conversational memory anymore. And frankly I'm also just kind of crap at staying caught up with people outside of work because my job is so draining.
I do have enough Lady Presenting Socialization to know that I'm supposed to kick off the convo at least half the time. So I tend to lead with a sort of "so what's up with you?!" and from there I'm kind of counting on them to be forthcoming about anything that they really really want to talk about.
You don't mention whether they ever come out with that sort of vague, open-ended gambit but if so, you can use that as your cue to fill them in on the stuff you want them to chat about re: your life. I know at least I would be thrilled, and definitely would have follow-up questions once you'd sort of ... situated me?
Additionally, (and I have to remind myself of this too), don't take "how are you" purely literally. The answer to "how are you" is not "fine thanks" it's "oh, man, work has been blah blah or I just moved and it was foo..." and an anecdote that kind of gets across The Main Thing with You Lately. Then follow ups and questions and reactions come a bit more naturally.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:01 AM on August 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
I do have enough Lady Presenting Socialization to know that I'm supposed to kick off the convo at least half the time. So I tend to lead with a sort of "so what's up with you?!" and from there I'm kind of counting on them to be forthcoming about anything that they really really want to talk about.
You don't mention whether they ever come out with that sort of vague, open-ended gambit but if so, you can use that as your cue to fill them in on the stuff you want them to chat about re: your life. I know at least I would be thrilled, and definitely would have follow-up questions once you'd sort of ... situated me?
Additionally, (and I have to remind myself of this too), don't take "how are you" purely literally. The answer to "how are you" is not "fine thanks" it's "oh, man, work has been blah blah or I just moved and it was foo..." and an anecdote that kind of gets across The Main Thing with You Lately. Then follow ups and questions and reactions come a bit more naturally.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:01 AM on August 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
Oh and this line of yours resonated with another experience in my life, "I guess just start talking about a topic I want to talk about, like my job or my artistic practice?"
I moved out to NYC from SF about 7 years ago and WOW the difference in conversation styles. There's a LOT more of just … talking about yourself out here and it's taken me a long time to learn that it's totally valid and accepted and in fact a hoped for part of conversation. If people are your friends/fam and close to you they are often ready and excited to hear what's going on with you even though they don't ask.
Some folks absolutely are ready for you to just start talking about whatever is going on in your life and I suggest you start trying it out, see how it goes. It is definitely awk at first (and still sometimes, for me) but I realized I was kind of waiting for folks to clear space for me all the time before I spoke up (thx mom/dad …) and that's just now how a lot of people roll. But I've ended up a lot closer to unexpected people by trying on this new style. Does it hit all the notes I want? No. But there's some real connection there to be had.
posted by wemayfreeze at 11:01 AM on August 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
I moved out to NYC from SF about 7 years ago and WOW the difference in conversation styles. There's a LOT more of just … talking about yourself out here and it's taken me a long time to learn that it's totally valid and accepted and in fact a hoped for part of conversation. If people are your friends/fam and close to you they are often ready and excited to hear what's going on with you even though they don't ask.
Some folks absolutely are ready for you to just start talking about whatever is going on in your life and I suggest you start trying it out, see how it goes. It is definitely awk at first (and still sometimes, for me) but I realized I was kind of waiting for folks to clear space for me all the time before I spoke up (thx mom/dad …) and that's just now how a lot of people roll. But I've ended up a lot closer to unexpected people by trying on this new style. Does it hit all the notes I want? No. But there's some real connection there to be had.
posted by wemayfreeze at 11:01 AM on August 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
I feel like we're not exactly answering your question here -- you wanted resources. I don't have any resources to offer, but FWIW I'll give you some of my own experience :)
What you're describing is 100% my (cis-het white woman) natural communications style, so I can tell you what I do and why, and maybe that can help you do it too, where & when you want to.
-- I don't ask questions because I assume if you have something you want to tell me, you'll just do it. Women are socialized to wait to be asked/invited, and for a long time I didn't realize that. So I assumed people would just say stuff, so I didn't invite them to do it.
-- My family of origin was uncomfortable expressing emotion, so I default to assuming everybody is like that. That works well with men, because they are raised not to express emotions (except anger). That's another reason I don't ask questions, especially about how people feel -- because I assume they might not want to answer them, and I don't want to put them on the spot.
-- I do naturally suggest solutions because, like kevinbelt, I want to help. My family of origin taught me (as many men were taught) that venting/processing was .. selfish? Childish? So I feel weird about it. I don't do it myself naturally, and I forget that other people do sometimes want to do it.
-- I bristle at therapy-speak because I don't have a lot of facility with it or vocabulary for it. To me it feels woolly and vague and highly personal. I might read about stuff like that, or think about it, but I am not super-comfortable talking about it.
-- Your therapy-speak example is a good one. I feel like an earlier version of me would have felt manipulated by that, like you had a plan for what you wanted to happen and you were shepherding me towards a specific goal. That might have made me feel suspicious or defensive. I think I would have been more receptive to (and would have found more natural) what is probably a more male way of handling that same thing. Like I don't know, 'dude, cut it out' or something. I think a lot goes unstated in male conversations, unarticulated, but the conversation is happening.
-- Like phunniemee, I don't feel weird taking up conversational space. I assume that what I have to say is at least as interesting as the things other people are saying. It is not natural for me to talk the way women are supposed to talk, with apologies and self-deprecation, and asking whether it's okay to keep going. If I'm with a group of men and I behave with a more 'female' conversational style, I literally never get to speak. So I am okay interrupting and holding forth and resisting interruption.
-- I was always pretty good at active listening, but most men IME are not. I used to wonder why I wasn't getting more encouragement in storytelling etc., but eventually I decided that men just aren't good at that. (The nodding, the tiny questions, the emoting.) Again I think it's a 'comfort with emotions' thing. I do find that men are pretty good at guarding their own interests -- like they will cut you off or change the subject if they want to. So I don't worry about whether I am boring them anymore. And honestly even if I am boring them I don't really care: sometimes they are boring me!
-- I think men are socialized to express themselves more through action than words, especially because so much emotional self-expression is off-limits. So a man will show up and help you move, or help you install something, or advise you on how to do it. Just being present is considered a form of affection. So there's that too. Again, a lot goes unstated.
This is just a bunch of scattered stuff and of course massively reductive -- hopefully some of it will be helpful :)
posted by Susan PG at 11:11 AM on August 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
What you're describing is 100% my (cis-het white woman) natural communications style, so I can tell you what I do and why, and maybe that can help you do it too, where & when you want to.
-- I don't ask questions because I assume if you have something you want to tell me, you'll just do it. Women are socialized to wait to be asked/invited, and for a long time I didn't realize that. So I assumed people would just say stuff, so I didn't invite them to do it.
-- My family of origin was uncomfortable expressing emotion, so I default to assuming everybody is like that. That works well with men, because they are raised not to express emotions (except anger). That's another reason I don't ask questions, especially about how people feel -- because I assume they might not want to answer them, and I don't want to put them on the spot.
-- I do naturally suggest solutions because, like kevinbelt, I want to help. My family of origin taught me (as many men were taught) that venting/processing was .. selfish? Childish? So I feel weird about it. I don't do it myself naturally, and I forget that other people do sometimes want to do it.
-- I bristle at therapy-speak because I don't have a lot of facility with it or vocabulary for it. To me it feels woolly and vague and highly personal. I might read about stuff like that, or think about it, but I am not super-comfortable talking about it.
-- Your therapy-speak example is a good one. I feel like an earlier version of me would have felt manipulated by that, like you had a plan for what you wanted to happen and you were shepherding me towards a specific goal. That might have made me feel suspicious or defensive. I think I would have been more receptive to (and would have found more natural) what is probably a more male way of handling that same thing. Like I don't know, 'dude, cut it out' or something. I think a lot goes unstated in male conversations, unarticulated, but the conversation is happening.
-- Like phunniemee, I don't feel weird taking up conversational space. I assume that what I have to say is at least as interesting as the things other people are saying. It is not natural for me to talk the way women are supposed to talk, with apologies and self-deprecation, and asking whether it's okay to keep going. If I'm with a group of men and I behave with a more 'female' conversational style, I literally never get to speak. So I am okay interrupting and holding forth and resisting interruption.
-- I was always pretty good at active listening, but most men IME are not. I used to wonder why I wasn't getting more encouragement in storytelling etc., but eventually I decided that men just aren't good at that. (The nodding, the tiny questions, the emoting.) Again I think it's a 'comfort with emotions' thing. I do find that men are pretty good at guarding their own interests -- like they will cut you off or change the subject if they want to. So I don't worry about whether I am boring them anymore. And honestly even if I am boring them I don't really care: sometimes they are boring me!
-- I think men are socialized to express themselves more through action than words, especially because so much emotional self-expression is off-limits. So a man will show up and help you move, or help you install something, or advise you on how to do it. Just being present is considered a form of affection. So there's that too. Again, a lot goes unstated.
This is just a bunch of scattered stuff and of course massively reductive -- hopefully some of it will be helpful :)
posted by Susan PG at 11:11 AM on August 1, 2022 [8 favorites]
"So, what's going on with $hobby?", in some situations, comes across as flirty, and I'm pretty reluctant to be flirty, especially with people I don't know well. I don't want my wife to think I'm interested in my female friends or co-workers, and even more so, I don't want my female friends or co-workers to think I'm being awkward or inappropriate. If you come out guns blazing about your hobby, I'm happy to listen, but there's a lot of gray area about me initiating that conversation, and I tend to err on the side of caution.
If you're actually fishing for attention in a way that's annoying, someone will probably tell you. (Maybe nonverbally, but you'll know.) If no one has said "it's annoying that you always talk about ___", it's probably not annoying that you're talking about it.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:12 AM on August 1, 2022
If you're actually fishing for attention in a way that's annoying, someone will probably tell you. (Maybe nonverbally, but you'll know.) If no one has said "it's annoying that you always talk about ___", it's probably not annoying that you're talking about it.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:12 AM on August 1, 2022
An example of therapy-speak that would make them roll their eyes would be "When you do ABC, it makes me feel XYZ, and so I react by LMNOP." Now that I've written this out, they're probably reacting to it sounding rehearsed and therefore inauthentic.
You’re spot on with this analysis. If I was on the receiving end of that comment there would definitely be part of me that was like “oh no, I’m getting blindsided by a scripted interaction that needs to be handled in a particular way and I really don’t have the energy for it right now”, combined with some “oh shit I just got pulled into the principal’s office”-style anxiety.
I think just phrasing it less formally/formulated-ly would make a big difference, like “as you probably noticed in [situation], I reacted to [x] by [y]. Here’s why I did that. I think things might be go better if [something about the interaction] was done differently”. Keep it tied to a concrete occurrence and hope they have the emotional intelligence to apply this new info to their behavior in general.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:17 AM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
You’re spot on with this analysis. If I was on the receiving end of that comment there would definitely be part of me that was like “oh no, I’m getting blindsided by a scripted interaction that needs to be handled in a particular way and I really don’t have the energy for it right now”, combined with some “oh shit I just got pulled into the principal’s office”-style anxiety.
I think just phrasing it less formally/formulated-ly would make a big difference, like “as you probably noticed in [situation], I reacted to [x] by [y]. Here’s why I did that. I think things might be go better if [something about the interaction] was done differently”. Keep it tied to a concrete occurrence and hope they have the emotional intelligence to apply this new info to their behavior in general.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:17 AM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
An example of therapy-speak that would make them roll their eyes would be "When you do ABC, it makes me feel XYZ, and so I react by LMNOP."
I can speak to this:!
I am a person who goes to therapy regularly, and this kind of thing still drives me up the wall. The reason is that it feels really disingenuous to me. If you say, for example, "when you do ABC, it makes me feel sad," what you want is for me to stop doing ABC. It's frustrating to me when people don't just say this, and instead act as though they're just giving me information to do with what I will, when there's really only one way for a non-monster to react to that information.
But also, honestly, discussing the relationship is something that I mostly reserve for intimate and family relationships. I don't really expect to be having that kind of meta-conversation in the context of a friendship.
posted by Ragged Richard at 11:26 AM on August 1, 2022 [14 favorites]
I can speak to this:!
I am a person who goes to therapy regularly, and this kind of thing still drives me up the wall. The reason is that it feels really disingenuous to me. If you say, for example, "when you do ABC, it makes me feel sad," what you want is for me to stop doing ABC. It's frustrating to me when people don't just say this, and instead act as though they're just giving me information to do with what I will, when there's really only one way for a non-monster to react to that information.
But also, honestly, discussing the relationship is something that I mostly reserve for intimate and family relationships. I don't really expect to be having that kind of meta-conversation in the context of a friendship.
posted by Ragged Richard at 11:26 AM on August 1, 2022 [14 favorites]
Two hopefully helpful things to add:
1. "When ABC happens, I feel XYZ" is way better than "when you do ABC, it makes me feel XYZ." We are each responsible for our own emotions, and no one can make you feel any particular way. The way you phrase it could be coming across as blamey, judgey, controlling. I might bristle too.
2. The book Self-Made Man might be interesting to read. It's a story of a queer woman who lives as a man for a year. Several parts of the book talk about the stereotypical cis het male mindset and how incredibly stunted their emotional lives often are =/ The patriarchy hurts everyone.
posted by acridrabbit at 11:46 AM on August 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
1. "When ABC happens, I feel XYZ" is way better than "when you do ABC, it makes me feel XYZ." We are each responsible for our own emotions, and no one can make you feel any particular way. The way you phrase it could be coming across as blamey, judgey, controlling. I might bristle too.
2. The book Self-Made Man might be interesting to read. It's a story of a queer woman who lives as a man for a year. Several parts of the book talk about the stereotypical cis het male mindset and how incredibly stunted their emotional lives often are =/ The patriarchy hurts everyone.
posted by acridrabbit at 11:46 AM on August 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think just phrasing it less formally/formulated-ly would make a big difference, like “as you probably noticed in [situation], I reacted to [x] by [y]. Here’s why I did that. I think things might be go better if [something about the interaction] was done differently”
Actually, I'm thinking about this, and I think just saying the last sentence is enough. "Next time, let's do it ___ instead". This would then tie into the question-asking thing. If they want to know why you want to do it that way, they'll ask, and then you can explain "because I felt ____ when we did it the other way". But if they don't ask, they don't care, so starting out with "you did ___ and I felt ____ so next time let's do ____" is more information than is needed.
Segue alert
I'm thinking about my interactions with women (mostly my wife, since I WFH and don't see a lot of other people in person anymore), and one thing she gets frustrated with me about is when we're doing something with a sense of urgency, and I'll seemingly bark out a command. Like, if we're moving furniture, I don't say "honey, thank you for helping me move this sofa up the stairs, but my arms are getting tired, and I'd appreciate if you could set your end down for a second so that I could rest, if that's OK with you". I say "set your side down". When time is of the proverbial essence, brevity is important, and I skip some of the frilly niceties that she might like. Likewise, if we're driving, and our turn is coming up, I'll say "turn here", because if I say "you're going to turn left in about 850 feet, just past that driveway with the blue Ford", we'll be past the turn before I can say where to turn. I *know* it comes off as gruff, but I have to be concise or else it'll cause problems.
One other thing I've realized I do is that I'll start telling a story by asking a question that's not really all that important to the actual story. "Have any of you ever been to that new burger place downtown?" Then I'll start telling the story about how I went last night and the burgers came out cold and then some people get in a bar fight and then the place got robbed. Like, merely eating at the place was the least interesting thing about that story, but it's a low-friction way to bring up the subject.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:59 AM on August 1, 2022
Actually, I'm thinking about this, and I think just saying the last sentence is enough. "Next time, let's do it ___ instead". This would then tie into the question-asking thing. If they want to know why you want to do it that way, they'll ask, and then you can explain "because I felt ____ when we did it the other way". But if they don't ask, they don't care, so starting out with "you did ___ and I felt ____ so next time let's do ____" is more information than is needed.
Segue alert
I'm thinking about my interactions with women (mostly my wife, since I WFH and don't see a lot of other people in person anymore), and one thing she gets frustrated with me about is when we're doing something with a sense of urgency, and I'll seemingly bark out a command. Like, if we're moving furniture, I don't say "honey, thank you for helping me move this sofa up the stairs, but my arms are getting tired, and I'd appreciate if you could set your end down for a second so that I could rest, if that's OK with you". I say "set your side down". When time is of the proverbial essence, brevity is important, and I skip some of the frilly niceties that she might like. Likewise, if we're driving, and our turn is coming up, I'll say "turn here", because if I say "you're going to turn left in about 850 feet, just past that driveway with the blue Ford", we'll be past the turn before I can say where to turn. I *know* it comes off as gruff, but I have to be concise or else it'll cause problems.
One other thing I've realized I do is that I'll start telling a story by asking a question that's not really all that important to the actual story. "Have any of you ever been to that new burger place downtown?" Then I'll start telling the story about how I went last night and the burgers came out cold and then some people get in a bar fight and then the place got robbed. Like, merely eating at the place was the least interesting thing about that story, but it's a low-friction way to bring up the subject.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:59 AM on August 1, 2022
Read these two books, which are useful even your interlocutors are not right wing:
The Man They Wanted Me to Be: Toxic Masculinity and a Crisis of Our Own Making
Dying of Whiteness: How the Politics of Racial Resentment Is Killing America's Heartland
posted by jocelmeow at 12:06 PM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Man They Wanted Me to Be: Toxic Masculinity and a Crisis of Our Own Making
Dying of Whiteness: How the Politics of Racial Resentment Is Killing America's Heartland
posted by jocelmeow at 12:06 PM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, just start talking to them about what you're up to and what you want to share. You might think about a few topics in advance of seeing them. I would probably not go to them for venting when you want some validation. But, you know what they might love? Bring them problems where you actually would like some helping solving them. Even if their advice isn't great, this might be a good experiment for you to see how that goes.
An example of therapy-speak that would make them roll their eyes would be "When you do ABC, it makes me feel XYZ, and so I react by LMNOP." Now that I've written this out, they're probably reacting to it sounding rehearsed and therefore inauthentic. If it came out way more conversationally, they'd probably be fine.
I just spoke with my therapist about situations sort of along these lines this morning! Her suggestion of a way to call attention to your hurt without making a huge production of explaining it:
Ouch!
So, let's say they say something a bit biting or sarcastic where you feel a bit hurt. You respond, "Ouch."
posted by bluedaisy at 12:08 PM on August 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
An example of therapy-speak that would make them roll their eyes would be "When you do ABC, it makes me feel XYZ, and so I react by LMNOP." Now that I've written this out, they're probably reacting to it sounding rehearsed and therefore inauthentic. If it came out way more conversationally, they'd probably be fine.
I just spoke with my therapist about situations sort of along these lines this morning! Her suggestion of a way to call attention to your hurt without making a huge production of explaining it:
Ouch!
So, let's say they say something a bit biting or sarcastic where you feel a bit hurt. You respond, "Ouch."
posted by bluedaisy at 12:08 PM on August 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm a cis woman, but I generally find talking to men easier and less stressful than talking to women. I used to feel like women had a whole set of unwritten rules about how to interact with each other and I didn't know any of them. Then when I started reading about emotional labor, that gave me a new way of looking at it. I realized that it might really all boil down to one basic rule: Do emotional labor when you're with other people. Be aware of the other person's emotional state and (if you like the person or want them to like you) try to say things that will make them feel good (or that will at least be seen as efforts to make them feel good) and try not to say things that might make them feel bad.
I feel like men aren't focused on the other person's emotions to the same extent; they don't feel they need to manage the other person's emotions and they don't worry about how the other person feels toward them as long as the other person hasn't actually expressed anger or insulted them. There's an assumption that things are fine if no one says otherwise and that each person will manage their own emotions.
If I'm on the right track here (and I may not be), then if there are things you tend to say mainly to boost the other person's emotional state or to signal that you're being considerate of their emotions, maybe you don't need to bother saying those things when you're talking to a man. And maybe you can also drop any expectation of being on the receiving end of that kind of emotional labor and not see men as rude or uncaring if they don't do it. Just say the stuff you actually want to say and ask the questions you actually are interested in hearing answers to and skip the stuff that's only about showing yourself to be a nice person.
posted by Redstart at 12:41 PM on August 1, 2022 [7 favorites]
I feel like men aren't focused on the other person's emotions to the same extent; they don't feel they need to manage the other person's emotions and they don't worry about how the other person feels toward them as long as the other person hasn't actually expressed anger or insulted them. There's an assumption that things are fine if no one says otherwise and that each person will manage their own emotions.
If I'm on the right track here (and I may not be), then if there are things you tend to say mainly to boost the other person's emotional state or to signal that you're being considerate of their emotions, maybe you don't need to bother saying those things when you're talking to a man. And maybe you can also drop any expectation of being on the receiving end of that kind of emotional labor and not see men as rude or uncaring if they don't do it. Just say the stuff you actually want to say and ask the questions you actually are interested in hearing answers to and skip the stuff that's only about showing yourself to be a nice person.
posted by Redstart at 12:41 PM on August 1, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm a Cis white male. The only times I realize that I should probably ask more questions conversationally is when telling my wife about conversations I've had with (usually) guy friends. She asks detailed questions that I don't have the answer to because I never asked my friends. The thing is...I NEVER think of these questions while in a conversation, unless my wife is there prompting me for details during the conversation. Even later while talking with my wife, i'm blindsided by the questions.
Nthing the suggestion to lead with "I'm not looking for suggestions..." because even though I know not everyone is looking for solutions to a problem, that's what my brain jumps to and that's what I will always offer unless told not to.
posted by schyler523 at 12:43 PM on August 1, 2022
Nthing the suggestion to lead with "I'm not looking for suggestions..." because even though I know not everyone is looking for solutions to a problem, that's what my brain jumps to and that's what I will always offer unless told not to.
posted by schyler523 at 12:43 PM on August 1, 2022
Just gonna chime in to say that people have no idea how emotionally stunted men are who are raised in US culture. The patriarchy does indeed hurt everyone. It took me (cis, white, male) MONTHS to cry after my mom's death. And that was with a lot of therapy and I still felt like it was shameful and weak. Our culture is sick. "I've never cried at school" was a bragging point when I was a kid. Things are not right. And I know everyone who isn't a cis white male has it much, much worse. Hopefully we can do better at some point, but my optimism about that is fading.
I have a carefully selected group of friends around whom I can be vulnerable and they'll get it. But that took decades?
(Look! -- I made this about me! Because of course I did)
posted by nixxon at 2:08 PM on August 1, 2022 [9 favorites]
I have a carefully selected group of friends around whom I can be vulnerable and they'll get it. But that took decades?
(Look! -- I made this about me! Because of course I did)
posted by nixxon at 2:08 PM on August 1, 2022 [9 favorites]
Consider reframing "they don't ask me questions" as "they like me to volunteer information unprompted."
I like a conversation style where people reply to what was said or go off on a related but interesting tangent instead of waiting for questions to volunteer a reply. It also feels a bit like an interrogation sometimes when I'm with a very eager, constant questioner -- I know they don't mean it that way, but it raises my hackles in an involuntary, "should I get a lawyer" sort of way.
posted by Hollywood Upstairs Medical College at 4:40 PM on August 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
I like a conversation style where people reply to what was said or go off on a related but interesting tangent instead of waiting for questions to volunteer a reply. It also feels a bit like an interrogation sometimes when I'm with a very eager, constant questioner -- I know they don't mean it that way, but it raises my hackles in an involuntary, "should I get a lawyer" sort of way.
posted by Hollywood Upstairs Medical College at 4:40 PM on August 1, 2022 [3 favorites]
One conversational style is a sort of story-trading. You don't really ask questions, but you can trade stories or snippets of things. So if someone tells you about what they did today, you can just respond with some other anecdote that seems related. There's no explicit "hey, what did you do today?" but the implication is, because I told you something, you can tell me something in return that's related or similar or thematically relevant.
Ding ding ding ding !!
I'm a cis het male who works in a cis-het-male-dominated industry and as it so happens I just basically spent a week with a bunch of guys I've been friends with since childhood and BungaDunga's description is e x a c t l y how we all communicate. (We did more directly asking questions amongst the old friends - but a lot of that was because we all live in different states and so most of our communication is in sporadic bursts of emails and texts and Zooms.)
my conversation style is to ask questions
Maybe think of it this way; you are used to pretty directly offering the conversational ball to another person - in the story-trading style the conversational ball is in play for anyone to take up as soon as the previous person stops talking.
I guess just start talking about a topic I want to talk about, like my job or my artistic practice?
So yeah, pretty much. If you can find even an indirect segue of sorts (Guy A tells a story about how supply chain issues have complicated his hobby, then you pick up with a story about how supply chain issues have affected your hobby), you might feel more comfortable.
And try to gauge if they're interested? It's hard because I get sensitive about feeling like I'm fishing for attention in a bad way, like someone who does a dramatic sigh and expects others to ask what's wrong.
Mmmmmm. Without denying the general emotional stuntedness of how US cis het males are raised, I will say this sounds like some gender socialization the other way - as a cis woman you've been raised to be constantly evaluating whether people are interested in the things you're saying and if there's a chance they're not then you need to Stop Immediately and "fishing for attention" is inherently Bad.
Whereas with cis het males (in friendly casual conversation) there's often an unspoken etiquette thing of "Let The Guy Talk." Like, I don't care at ALL about golf, never played a lick in my life, don't watch it on TV, don't read about it in the sports pages or on the web, nothin'. But when co-worker wants to gimme 10 minutes on their game this past weekend, I let them. (Also, "active listening" tends to be more like, "Whoa!" "no fuckin' way!" "wow!" interjected sporadically rather than a more constant and regular nodding and emoting and stuff.) And then I follow up with 10 minutes on whatever I did that weekend ("thing we did on the weekend" being the commonality of our stories), and we're all good - we've had a friendly conversation where we both were heard.
IOW, we're interested enough in whatever you're talking about if we don't interrupt and actively change the subject - you don't necessarily need to be constantly gauging their interest via subtle signals.
Also I would not be at all surprised if you will get follow-up questions if you start snagging the conversational ball when it's available, which would be a definite sign of interest.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:20 PM on August 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ding ding ding ding !!
I'm a cis het male who works in a cis-het-male-dominated industry and as it so happens I just basically spent a week with a bunch of guys I've been friends with since childhood and BungaDunga's description is e x a c t l y how we all communicate. (We did more directly asking questions amongst the old friends - but a lot of that was because we all live in different states and so most of our communication is in sporadic bursts of emails and texts and Zooms.)
my conversation style is to ask questions
Maybe think of it this way; you are used to pretty directly offering the conversational ball to another person - in the story-trading style the conversational ball is in play for anyone to take up as soon as the previous person stops talking.
I guess just start talking about a topic I want to talk about, like my job or my artistic practice?
So yeah, pretty much. If you can find even an indirect segue of sorts (Guy A tells a story about how supply chain issues have complicated his hobby, then you pick up with a story about how supply chain issues have affected your hobby), you might feel more comfortable.
And try to gauge if they're interested? It's hard because I get sensitive about feeling like I'm fishing for attention in a bad way, like someone who does a dramatic sigh and expects others to ask what's wrong.
Mmmmmm. Without denying the general emotional stuntedness of how US cis het males are raised, I will say this sounds like some gender socialization the other way - as a cis woman you've been raised to be constantly evaluating whether people are interested in the things you're saying and if there's a chance they're not then you need to Stop Immediately and "fishing for attention" is inherently Bad.
Whereas with cis het males (in friendly casual conversation) there's often an unspoken etiquette thing of "Let The Guy Talk." Like, I don't care at ALL about golf, never played a lick in my life, don't watch it on TV, don't read about it in the sports pages or on the web, nothin'. But when co-worker wants to gimme 10 minutes on their game this past weekend, I let them. (Also, "active listening" tends to be more like, "Whoa!" "no fuckin' way!" "wow!" interjected sporadically rather than a more constant and regular nodding and emoting and stuff.) And then I follow up with 10 minutes on whatever I did that weekend ("thing we did on the weekend" being the commonality of our stories), and we're all good - we've had a friendly conversation where we both were heard.
IOW, we're interested enough in whatever you're talking about if we don't interrupt and actively change the subject - you don't necessarily need to be constantly gauging their interest via subtle signals.
Also I would not be at all surprised if you will get follow-up questions if you start snagging the conversational ball when it's available, which would be a definite sign of interest.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:20 PM on August 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
They don't actively ask questions during conversation.
My idea of a good conversation involves a certain degree of back-and-forth, some sort of indication that the other person is actually interested and listening, and ideally, even understanding. But I can accept that this notion is not universal. Some people are perfectly fine or even prefer a conversation style where you are just sporadically monologuing at each other, and once I know that about someone, and assuming that I happen to be in an expansive mood, I don't actually find it that hard to just roll with that. I personally don't mind listening to the occasional monologue (even if it's a topic I'm not necessarily drawn to; I can be reasonably entertained by fun facts about areas outside of my domain); and I can actually get carried away a little myself, when I'm going on about some of my pet issues. I feel a bit bad afterwards when it occurs to me that I probably lost my audience half-way in, and I finally notice everyone's eyes glazing over and sense the air of relief when I'm finally done and the topic is changed. But part of that might well be projection, some unhealed wound of the past, that has nothing to do with the current situation.
Point is, some people feel fairly neutral about unprompted monologues, they might do it themselves and don't mind it about others, and even if they might not be terribly interested exactly, it at least doesn't bother them too much either. So with that sort of person, you can just say whatever's on your mind if you're in the mood for sharing without worrying too much about boring them. As long as they're not interrupting you to change the topic, you're probably good to go. Are they paying attention? No one will ever know, but best-case scenario, they very well might, and worst-case scenario, they don't, but you have had an opportunity to practice your bit for future use with a hopefully more receptive audience.
I will never find that sort of thing as satisfying as my own idea of a good conversation, but I have learned to appreciate the super-low stakes nature of the affair. But as I said, I need to be in a certain mood to go in for that, otherwise it does feel too much like talking into a void and that just depresses me. So when I'm not in the mood, I just don' talk. If someone doesn't show interest in a conversation with me, we don't need to have a conversation. Silence is perfectly fine. We are not obliged to entertain each other, people can entertain themselves. Let's just peacefully co-exist for a moment, that's nice enough; there's no need for constant interaction.
I think my biggest issue with this sort of one-sided conversation used to be my own sense of pressure to keep the conversation going, by making up for all the questions the other party failed to ask by asking questions of my own. That's actually quite a bit of labour, that tends to go completely unappreciated, which then tends to make me resentful, so I stopped doing it. I only ask the questions that actually interest me, and when I'm done with those, and the other party doesn't come up with questions of their own, well, that's just it. As I said, silence is perfectly fine. It can feel awkward at first, but I've stopped feeling responsible for the awkwardness and now I don't mind it anymore.
If I still feel like deepening the connection with that person I will look for ways of bonding other than conversation (eg. going hiking with my dad; my dad and I can actually have very lively conversation, but those tend to be fierce ideological disagreements, so for bonding purposes, hiking is better.) If I can't think of any, I just make my peace with the fact this particular relationship is always going to be slightly more shallow than other relationships, and that's okay, there is value in shallow relationships too; there are situations where it's easier/more helpful to turn to someone you're less close to, especially if you have a problem they can actually solve.
If you talk about a problem of yours, their default reaction is to suggest solutions (without asking if you want suggestions or if you're just venting).
If they can't solve my problem however, I just give them the excecutive summary, so that they have some notion why I might not be at the top of my game right now, and then change the topic myself. Sitting with someone in pain, when you can't do anything about it, requires an ability to face your own powerlessness - some people just don't have it in them. Turn to them once the sky clears, and you need to pick up the rubble, when they can actually make themselves useful, but turn to someone else while you're within the eye of the storm.
So that's my final advice in dealing with these limiations without trying to change anyone: Identify your own needs that are not met in these interactions (having your feelings validated, getting feedback that you're interesting, intelligent, witty....), and invest in relationship with other people who can meet them. The the way to not feel resentful about going to a barbecue that won't cater to your dietary needs is to go eat somewhere else before. You are more likely to actually enjoy the music, and the company and the balmy summer night, once you're no longer hungry.
posted by sohalt at 1:12 AM on August 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
My idea of a good conversation involves a certain degree of back-and-forth, some sort of indication that the other person is actually interested and listening, and ideally, even understanding. But I can accept that this notion is not universal. Some people are perfectly fine or even prefer a conversation style where you are just sporadically monologuing at each other, and once I know that about someone, and assuming that I happen to be in an expansive mood, I don't actually find it that hard to just roll with that. I personally don't mind listening to the occasional monologue (even if it's a topic I'm not necessarily drawn to; I can be reasonably entertained by fun facts about areas outside of my domain); and I can actually get carried away a little myself, when I'm going on about some of my pet issues. I feel a bit bad afterwards when it occurs to me that I probably lost my audience half-way in, and I finally notice everyone's eyes glazing over and sense the air of relief when I'm finally done and the topic is changed. But part of that might well be projection, some unhealed wound of the past, that has nothing to do with the current situation.
Point is, some people feel fairly neutral about unprompted monologues, they might do it themselves and don't mind it about others, and even if they might not be terribly interested exactly, it at least doesn't bother them too much either. So with that sort of person, you can just say whatever's on your mind if you're in the mood for sharing without worrying too much about boring them. As long as they're not interrupting you to change the topic, you're probably good to go. Are they paying attention? No one will ever know, but best-case scenario, they very well might, and worst-case scenario, they don't, but you have had an opportunity to practice your bit for future use with a hopefully more receptive audience.
I will never find that sort of thing as satisfying as my own idea of a good conversation, but I have learned to appreciate the super-low stakes nature of the affair. But as I said, I need to be in a certain mood to go in for that, otherwise it does feel too much like talking into a void and that just depresses me. So when I'm not in the mood, I just don' talk. If someone doesn't show interest in a conversation with me, we don't need to have a conversation. Silence is perfectly fine. We are not obliged to entertain each other, people can entertain themselves. Let's just peacefully co-exist for a moment, that's nice enough; there's no need for constant interaction.
I think my biggest issue with this sort of one-sided conversation used to be my own sense of pressure to keep the conversation going, by making up for all the questions the other party failed to ask by asking questions of my own. That's actually quite a bit of labour, that tends to go completely unappreciated, which then tends to make me resentful, so I stopped doing it. I only ask the questions that actually interest me, and when I'm done with those, and the other party doesn't come up with questions of their own, well, that's just it. As I said, silence is perfectly fine. It can feel awkward at first, but I've stopped feeling responsible for the awkwardness and now I don't mind it anymore.
If I still feel like deepening the connection with that person I will look for ways of bonding other than conversation (eg. going hiking with my dad; my dad and I can actually have very lively conversation, but those tend to be fierce ideological disagreements, so for bonding purposes, hiking is better.) If I can't think of any, I just make my peace with the fact this particular relationship is always going to be slightly more shallow than other relationships, and that's okay, there is value in shallow relationships too; there are situations where it's easier/more helpful to turn to someone you're less close to, especially if you have a problem they can actually solve.
If you talk about a problem of yours, their default reaction is to suggest solutions (without asking if you want suggestions or if you're just venting).
If they can't solve my problem however, I just give them the excecutive summary, so that they have some notion why I might not be at the top of my game right now, and then change the topic myself. Sitting with someone in pain, when you can't do anything about it, requires an ability to face your own powerlessness - some people just don't have it in them. Turn to them once the sky clears, and you need to pick up the rubble, when they can actually make themselves useful, but turn to someone else while you're within the eye of the storm.
So that's my final advice in dealing with these limiations without trying to change anyone: Identify your own needs that are not met in these interactions (having your feelings validated, getting feedback that you're interesting, intelligent, witty....), and invest in relationship with other people who can meet them. The the way to not feel resentful about going to a barbecue that won't cater to your dietary needs is to go eat somewhere else before. You are more likely to actually enjoy the music, and the company and the balmy summer night, once you're no longer hungry.
posted by sohalt at 1:12 AM on August 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
Seconding the recommendation for Self Made Man, which is one of the most thought-provoking books I've ever read about gender.
But I'd definitely follow it up with the absolutely amazing memoir Amateur by Thomas Page McBee. In which a transman turns into a mansplaining a-hole after he transitions, but (thanks to his girlfriend and sister calling him on his shit) recognizes it and then works to unlearn some of the conversational ticks he had picked up. So a lot of discussion of exactly the things you are interested in: how to recognize and perform masculine conversation, intimacy, and emotion, but without being an a-hole.
Both books are fascinating and surprisingly tender.
posted by EllaEm at 7:32 AM on August 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
But I'd definitely follow it up with the absolutely amazing memoir Amateur by Thomas Page McBee. In which a transman turns into a mansplaining a-hole after he transitions, but (thanks to his girlfriend and sister calling him on his shit) recognizes it and then works to unlearn some of the conversational ticks he had picked up. So a lot of discussion of exactly the things you are interested in: how to recognize and perform masculine conversation, intimacy, and emotion, but without being an a-hole.
Both books are fascinating and surprisingly tender.
posted by EllaEm at 7:32 AM on August 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
Some people are perfectly fine or even prefer a conversation style where you are just sporadically monologuing at each other,
See, as a cis-het white male, listening to someone venting without offering solutions and expecting me to agree (it could very well be that I approve of whomever or whatever is making you mad) with you and commiserate is about as much a monologue as you can get. The better way (IMO) is to angrily mutter to yourself or get a dog than make me listen to that.
I guess different strokes for different folks.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:51 AM on August 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
See, as a cis-het white male, listening to someone venting without offering solutions and expecting me to agree (it could very well be that I approve of whomever or whatever is making you mad) with you and commiserate is about as much a monologue as you can get. The better way (IMO) is to angrily mutter to yourself or get a dog than make me listen to that.
I guess different strokes for different folks.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:51 AM on August 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
BungaDunga's description is e x a c t l y how we all communicate
I will add that there are "nice" and "fucking awful" variants of this. The fucking awful variants include 1) when someone uses their turn to one-up whatever it is the other person said, or 2) they use their turn to shit on whatever it was the other person said. I knew a guy who could find reasons to be down on anything you brought up to the point of comedy ("Oh, it's sunny? Hurts my eyes."). These suck! A lot!
The "nice" variant is when this ends up turning a conversation toward things that are mutually interesting and feels like you're collaborating in something. You absolutely can ask questions in this mode as long as you don't mind that it's going to just prolong the other person's turn as they respond to the question. Best employed when you really are interested.
The "meh" variant is when you're just sort of gabbing past each other about different things. This is, you know, fine, and passes the time. In a family that communicates like this you've probably already heard half the stories anyway; the unspoken agreement is probably that you never mention that you've heard it before.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:56 AM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
I will add that there are "nice" and "fucking awful" variants of this. The fucking awful variants include 1) when someone uses their turn to one-up whatever it is the other person said, or 2) they use their turn to shit on whatever it was the other person said. I knew a guy who could find reasons to be down on anything you brought up to the point of comedy ("Oh, it's sunny? Hurts my eyes."). These suck! A lot!
The "nice" variant is when this ends up turning a conversation toward things that are mutually interesting and feels like you're collaborating in something. You absolutely can ask questions in this mode as long as you don't mind that it's going to just prolong the other person's turn as they respond to the question. Best employed when you really are interested.
The "meh" variant is when you're just sort of gabbing past each other about different things. This is, you know, fine, and passes the time. In a family that communicates like this you've probably already heard half the stories anyway; the unspoken agreement is probably that you never mention that you've heard it before.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:56 AM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
See, as a cis-het white male, listening to someone venting without offering solutions and expecting me to agree (it could very well be that I approve of whomever or whatever is making you mad) with you and commiserate is about as much a monologue as you can get
But so, usually, is the solution-focused reaction. If you react more in the spirit of a back-and-forth with a question rather than a suggestion ("Have you considered..... "), the whole thing is often nipped in the bud, because it turns out that the other person has indeed already considered the solution you were about to suggest and it just won't work in this specific case.
Again, monologues are not necessarily a bad thing, but people often have more patience for that sort of thing when they are not currently in a moment of crisis. We all, at turns, require patience from each other, but I think the person who currently doesn't have the problem should be the patient one.
posted by sohalt at 8:13 AM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
But so, usually, is the solution-focused reaction. If you react more in the spirit of a back-and-forth with a question rather than a suggestion ("Have you considered..... "), the whole thing is often nipped in the bud, because it turns out that the other person has indeed already considered the solution you were about to suggest and it just won't work in this specific case.
Again, monologues are not necessarily a bad thing, but people often have more patience for that sort of thing when they are not currently in a moment of crisis. We all, at turns, require patience from each other, but I think the person who currently doesn't have the problem should be the patient one.
posted by sohalt at 8:13 AM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
This thread is great. I have a new appreciation for both styles of conversation and I think will feel a lot less aggrieved by the stereotypically male one from now on, and not like the stereotypically female one is the “right” way. Both ways have their merits and demerits. Nicely done, Metafilter!
I think the info dump, where it doesn’t even matter who you’re taking to, you’re just spewing out your story, is a failure mode of both ways. It’s exhausting and boring to be the recipient and yeah sometimes you do it for someone you love but it’s way better if they care about your particular opinion.
posted by HotToddy at 10:20 AM on August 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think the info dump, where it doesn’t even matter who you’re taking to, you’re just spewing out your story, is a failure mode of both ways. It’s exhausting and boring to be the recipient and yeah sometimes you do it for someone you love but it’s way better if they care about your particular opinion.
posted by HotToddy at 10:20 AM on August 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
If you react more in the spirit of a back-and-forth with a question rather than a suggestion ("Have you considered..... "), the whole thing is often nipped in the bud, because it turns out that the other person has indeed already considered the solution you were about to suggest and it just won't work in this specific case.
Eh, I mean maybe we are getting deep into semantics, but if they briefly explain why my suggestion doesn't work, then isn't it still a conversation [which seems to be the ultimate goal], and I gain more insight into their life and thought processes and maybe make better suggestions? I'm not Jesus and can't force anyone to follow my suggestions. I guess I just don't see that much difference in outcome even if the conversational flow is different.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:33 AM on August 2, 2022
Eh, I mean maybe we are getting deep into semantics, but if they briefly explain why my suggestion doesn't work, then isn't it still a conversation [which seems to be the ultimate goal], and I gain more insight into their life and thought processes and maybe make better suggestions? I'm not Jesus and can't force anyone to follow my suggestions. I guess I just don't see that much difference in outcome even if the conversational flow is different.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:33 AM on August 2, 2022
They don't actively ask questions during conversation.
Many [white, cis-gender, American] men are socialized to find direct questions intrusive at best, and an unexpected interrogation at worst. Authority figures, like parents, grandparents, teachers, and coaches, posed direct questions when these men were young (often when they had made a mistake), and, due to the power differential, there was no way to wriggle out of answering. Being asked questions can still bring about that called-on-the-carpet feeling, and suppressing that feeling is reserved for intimate relationships (whether romantic or familial) and dealing with the boss -- where the stakes are pretty high. Casual conversation with friends is valued because it's not "demanding."
You: What did you do over the weekend?
Guy: [what is with the third degree?!?]
Guy: Not much.
=vs.=
You: *I* spent the weekend doing #hobby
Guy: [an invitation to talk about my weekend and/or my hobby!]
Guy: Cool. This weekend, I... / My hobby is...
Soon or later, in between "cool" (acknowledgement) and "this weekend" (begins own anecdote), Guy may ask a question, now that you've volunteered (approved) your hobby as a topic. But it may take a few instances of you talking about #hobby before that happens? (If Guy finds your hobby uninteresting, it still might not happen.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:33 AM on August 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
Many [white, cis-gender, American] men are socialized to find direct questions intrusive at best, and an unexpected interrogation at worst. Authority figures, like parents, grandparents, teachers, and coaches, posed direct questions when these men were young (often when they had made a mistake), and, due to the power differential, there was no way to wriggle out of answering. Being asked questions can still bring about that called-on-the-carpet feeling, and suppressing that feeling is reserved for intimate relationships (whether romantic or familial) and dealing with the boss -- where the stakes are pretty high. Casual conversation with friends is valued because it's not "demanding."
You: What did you do over the weekend?
Guy: [what is with the third degree?!?]
Guy: Not much.
=vs.=
You: *I* spent the weekend doing #hobby
Guy: [an invitation to talk about my weekend and/or my hobby!]
Guy: Cool. This weekend, I... / My hobby is...
Soon or later, in between "cool" (acknowledgement) and "this weekend" (begins own anecdote), Guy may ask a question, now that you've volunteered (approved) your hobby as a topic. But it may take a few instances of you talking about #hobby before that happens? (If Guy finds your hobby uninteresting, it still might not happen.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:33 AM on August 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
Consider reframing "they don't ask me questions" as "they like me to volunteer information unprompted."
When I ran into a similar conversation style mismatch between the Midwest (more likely to ask questions and wait for answers) and Boston (more likely to barge in and volunteer info), a nice Bostonian helpfully told me that my conversation style felt to him like I was a judgy teacher, first waiting silently for all the conversation to quiet down and then presenting the class with a question. They found the more raucous conversation style friendlier and less formal. Somehow that framing flipped the switch for me -- I'd known THAT Bostonians found my conversation style offputting, but now I could see WHY. Idk if this helps you understand the gendered version of this dynamic, but maybe it will.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:57 AM on August 2, 2022 [6 favorites]
When I ran into a similar conversation style mismatch between the Midwest (more likely to ask questions and wait for answers) and Boston (more likely to barge in and volunteer info), a nice Bostonian helpfully told me that my conversation style felt to him like I was a judgy teacher, first waiting silently for all the conversation to quiet down and then presenting the class with a question. They found the more raucous conversation style friendlier and less formal. Somehow that framing flipped the switch for me -- I'd known THAT Bostonians found my conversation style offputting, but now I could see WHY. Idk if this helps you understand the gendered version of this dynamic, but maybe it will.
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:57 AM on August 2, 2022 [6 favorites]
I've heard the two styles compared to sports - the slower, back-and-forth is like tennis; while the more raucous, where people interrupt each other, is like basketball.
posted by Rash at 12:54 PM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Rash at 12:54 PM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
Part of it is changing what you expect from the conversation. With my friends, the conversation has a high exchange of emotional content. One person shares something with emotional resonance for them now, and the other seeks to understand and validate the emotional importance for them. The goal is basically emotional closeness.
With people in this other mode, all of that is like "maybe you should write that in your diary" stuff. We're adults in public here. Our inner world is what it is, no need to share or even really examine it. (We've got it figured out. Plus that sounds exhausting.) Instead, let's talk about something interesting. Something happening in front of us. A mutual interest like running or professional sports. A restaurant the other person might like. A story with a punchline. Maybe share a news snippet like "we're starting to think about moving," but then pivot -- not to emotional content like the stress of househunting -- but to something like mortgage interest rates, the real estate market, or a notable house tour.
Personally I love the emotional content and initially find this fairly stultifying and distancing. But it's possible to find it peaceful. Nobody is trying to pry into your emotions or spilling their own all over the place in a way that requires your energy. Once I adjust my expectations, I can usually settle into it.
posted by slidell at 1:07 AM on August 3, 2022
With people in this other mode, all of that is like "maybe you should write that in your diary" stuff. We're adults in public here. Our inner world is what it is, no need to share or even really examine it. (We've got it figured out. Plus that sounds exhausting.) Instead, let's talk about something interesting. Something happening in front of us. A mutual interest like running or professional sports. A restaurant the other person might like. A story with a punchline. Maybe share a news snippet like "we're starting to think about moving," but then pivot -- not to emotional content like the stress of househunting -- but to something like mortgage interest rates, the real estate market, or a notable house tour.
Personally I love the emotional content and initially find this fairly stultifying and distancing. But it's possible to find it peaceful. Nobody is trying to pry into your emotions or spilling their own all over the place in a way that requires your energy. Once I adjust my expectations, I can usually settle into it.
posted by slidell at 1:07 AM on August 3, 2022
Eh, I mean maybe we are getting deep into semantics, but if they briefly explain why my suggestion doesn't work, then isn't it still a conversation [which seems to be the ultimate goal], and I gain more insight into their life and thought processes and maybe make better suggestions?
Or, sometimes, accept that there really isn't much to be done in the moment, because otherwise the other person would be doing it already. I think this is, where these "conversations" often break down, because the solution-proposer isn't really open to that possibility and isn't flexible enough to switch gears when that's where it's headed.
Sure, ideally, it's a collective brainstorming, where you share relevant information and cooperate to find a workable solution and I really don't think that's what anyone has in mind when they complain about the "jumping to suggestions of solutions"-tendency of certain people. But you really can't solve some problems on the spot like that, and then you need to have other tools in your conversational repertoire.
Because if you don't, this is when things can get ugly. You either refuse to actually hear that your solution isn't workable and power through anyway or you start accusing the other person of just looking for excuses and questioning the validity of their own insights into their own problem and they suddenly find themselves in a position where they have to justify themselves why they're not working hard enough to solve their problem, which is really the last thing anyone needs when they're having a shitty time already. I think it's some type of just-world-fallady - it's hard to accept that sometimes you can't solve a problem, so surely, the people who can't solve their problem must be in some way at fault, they probably don't even want to solve their problem, they just want to complain, etc.
Non one resents suggestions of actually workable solutions, what people resent is the "you're just looking for excuses"-vibes, when they shut unworkable suggestions down.
posted by sohalt at 4:06 AM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Or, sometimes, accept that there really isn't much to be done in the moment, because otherwise the other person would be doing it already. I think this is, where these "conversations" often break down, because the solution-proposer isn't really open to that possibility and isn't flexible enough to switch gears when that's where it's headed.
Sure, ideally, it's a collective brainstorming, where you share relevant information and cooperate to find a workable solution and I really don't think that's what anyone has in mind when they complain about the "jumping to suggestions of solutions"-tendency of certain people. But you really can't solve some problems on the spot like that, and then you need to have other tools in your conversational repertoire.
Because if you don't, this is when things can get ugly. You either refuse to actually hear that your solution isn't workable and power through anyway or you start accusing the other person of just looking for excuses and questioning the validity of their own insights into their own problem and they suddenly find themselves in a position where they have to justify themselves why they're not working hard enough to solve their problem, which is really the last thing anyone needs when they're having a shitty time already. I think it's some type of just-world-fallady - it's hard to accept that sometimes you can't solve a problem, so surely, the people who can't solve their problem must be in some way at fault, they probably don't even want to solve their problem, they just want to complain, etc.
Non one resents suggestions of actually workable solutions, what people resent is the "you're just looking for excuses"-vibes, when they shut unworkable suggestions down.
posted by sohalt at 4:06 AM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
If you talk about a problem of yours, their default reaction is to suggest solutions (without asking if you want suggestions or if you're just venting).
I resemble this remark!
This is something that gave my partner and I a lot of grief for years before we figured it out, because we both had different expectations when interacting this way.
In my experience, the best thing you can do is preempt it explicitly when you know someone is likely to do that. "Hey, I know you're going to want to help me solve this problem, but right now I don't want any solutions, I'm just looking to vent about it ." I don't believe this would count as attempting to change or "train" anyone, you're just being upfront and unambiguous about what you're looking for with an interaction, so everyone is on the same page and they won't waste the energy trying. They will likely appreciate it.
I would also highly recommend preceding this (and all venting) with some form of "hey, do you have the spoons/emotional energy/time/[non-therapy-speak synonym] for me to vent about something right now?"
For me, not having a lot of spoons/emotional energy/[non-therapy-speak synonym] in a given moment greatly increases the likelihood that I am going to try to "solve" the problem in an effort to preserve said spoons/emotional energy. Not having the spoons and not being able to solve said problem in order to eliminate it can be very distressing. Being asked first if I am ok with participating in that kind of emotional labor has been a big change for the better.
They don't actively ask questions during conversation.
Are you sure they're interested in the conversation? I know I tend to default to passive listening mode when I'm not. If you're sure they are, perhaps providing the details unbidden would be fine. Sometimes folks don't know the kinds of questions to ask, or don't know whether the questions are OK to ask or not, or don't want to be rude and interrupt. Or they may be confused as to why you don't just get to the point already.
Perhaps prompting them to respond might also coax them to engage with you more, eg "you know what I mean?" "I don't know, what do you think?" "Has this ever happened to you?" etc. Be advised that depending on the prompt given, you may inadvertently lead them to believe you are looking for solutions again, so just keep that in mind.
FWIW I think it's great that you're trying to facilitate good interactions with guys you care about by meeting them where they are. Good luck!
posted by rustybullrake at 8:17 AM on August 1, 2022 [7 favorites]