Friend, not nice words, frankly I'm offended, need to say good-bye
May 31, 2022 1:10 PM Subscribe
While assisting a friend in putting together an event, he said some offensive things.
I was showing him how to make a FB event page. First we discussed the directions and locations (he had the location a block off before and at least two people didn't find it).
He said, "Well, I know you girls (!), you aren't that good with directions."
I reminded him I drove halfway across the country before, alone, and he acquiesced a bit.
Then later he picked up a small figurine, "See my figurine?" It said Blonde Lives Matter.
We are all at our wits' end with the current news (which is now not news but sadly commonplace) of all kinds. I have always thought of him as a mostly good guy if not particularly politically correct.
I can just hear him saying, "I was just kidding, can't you take humor?" No, I have no sense of humor about sexism and racism.
Know over ten years and he shows his clay feet.
I want OUT of this event and I also want a brief script to get out. And I don't what to argue.
Say,
"Since I have become aware of your racism and your sexism, I can no longer support you." Or somesuch..b..
I was showing him how to make a FB event page. First we discussed the directions and locations (he had the location a block off before and at least two people didn't find it).
He said, "Well, I know you girls (!), you aren't that good with directions."
I reminded him I drove halfway across the country before, alone, and he acquiesced a bit.
Then later he picked up a small figurine, "See my figurine?" It said Blonde Lives Matter.
We are all at our wits' end with the current news (which is now not news but sadly commonplace) of all kinds. I have always thought of him as a mostly good guy if not particularly politically correct.
I can just hear him saying, "I was just kidding, can't you take humor?" No, I have no sense of humor about sexism and racism.
Know over ten years and he shows his clay feet.
I want OUT of this event and I also want a brief script to get out. And I don't what to argue.
Say,
"Since I have become aware of your racism and your sexism, I can no longer support you." Or somesuch..b..
This is just a friend, as opposed to someone who's paying you?
I would just suddenly be unexpectedly very busy. "Yikes - sorry, work just got nuts because some shit went down, I can't help you with this, sorry."
Let him think whatever he wants about why you dropped out, who gives a shit about this turdnugget's opinion.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:14 PM on May 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
I would just suddenly be unexpectedly very busy. "Yikes - sorry, work just got nuts because some shit went down, I can't help you with this, sorry."
Let him think whatever he wants about why you dropped out, who gives a shit about this turdnugget's opinion.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:14 PM on May 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
Best answer: Dear [name],
While we have known each other for some time, our recent interaction has brought into focus certain issues that I wish to bring to your attention. In specific, while I was helping you plan [EVENT], you made disparaging comments about women and the Black Lives Matter movement [add details if you want - you said/did A, I felt/did B]. When I noted that your comments were both factually inaccurate and offensive, you attempted to pretend you had been joking. Since we both know you were not joking, it is time for me to say farewell - I will be spending my time with people who do not disparage women and people of color. Good luck with your event and the rest of your life.
Sincerely,
Rumi'sLeftSock
and then block him.
posted by bile and syntax at 1:19 PM on May 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
While we have known each other for some time, our recent interaction has brought into focus certain issues that I wish to bring to your attention. In specific, while I was helping you plan [EVENT], you made disparaging comments about women and the Black Lives Matter movement [add details if you want - you said/did A, I felt/did B]. When I noted that your comments were both factually inaccurate and offensive, you attempted to pretend you had been joking. Since we both know you were not joking, it is time for me to say farewell - I will be spending my time with people who do not disparage women and people of color. Good luck with your event and the rest of your life.
Sincerely,
Rumi'sLeftSock
and then block him.
posted by bile and syntax at 1:19 PM on May 31, 2022 [17 favorites]
”I don’t want to organize events with you or be associated with you because of the racist and sexist things you’ve said recently. Here are (the passwords, the contacts, whatever else he needs for the event organization that only you have). I’m done effective right now.”
That’s it. Do it at the same time you transfer any knowledge he needs, and be done.
One caveat: what’s up with this event? Is it the sort of thing where you stepping out leaves people beyond your friend in the lurch, or where you might have a moral obligation to let others know the reason you’re leaving rather than leaving them with a racist, sexist collaborator they may not realize is the way he is? If so, then you might want to talk with them first, arrange a replacement, or whatever you need to do to feel okay about walking away.
posted by Stacey at 1:19 PM on May 31, 2022 [19 favorites]
That’s it. Do it at the same time you transfer any knowledge he needs, and be done.
One caveat: what’s up with this event? Is it the sort of thing where you stepping out leaves people beyond your friend in the lurch, or where you might have a moral obligation to let others know the reason you’re leaving rather than leaving them with a racist, sexist collaborator they may not realize is the way he is? If so, then you might want to talk with them first, arrange a replacement, or whatever you need to do to feel okay about walking away.
posted by Stacey at 1:19 PM on May 31, 2022 [19 favorites]
It's kind of amazing to me that in 10 years, this is the first time he's displaying these prejudices. I would wait for some of the (justifiable) anger to subside, and try to reflect on past interactions. Not only is that likely to help formulate a better response, but it may also help inform what you say next. If, upon reflection, you realize there have been other signs, the script might have the theme "I've put up with this for a long time and I've had it"; if this is a new pattern of behavior, the theme of the script might be "I don't know what's happened to you but I'm not going to stand for it". (I wouldn't use these literal words, of course! This is just shorthand for expressing the point.)
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:23 PM on May 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by StrawberryPie at 1:23 PM on May 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Is the goodbye script for you or for him? Has he always been this way and do you just now have new eyes for it?
I think you need to give up on any idea of convincing him or engaging with him about it because he won’t get it. You say you don’t want that, but make sure. You won’t get an acknowledgment from him that you’re right.
But if you’re doing this for you, for your sake, then keep it simple: “Hey, I always knew our values didn’t align perfectly, but the casual sexism and racism is too much for me at his point. Good luck to you.”
posted by bluedaisy at 1:33 PM on May 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
I think you need to give up on any idea of convincing him or engaging with him about it because he won’t get it. You say you don’t want that, but make sure. You won’t get an acknowledgment from him that you’re right.
But if you’re doing this for you, for your sake, then keep it simple: “Hey, I always knew our values didn’t align perfectly, but the casual sexism and racism is too much for me at his point. Good luck to you.”
posted by bluedaisy at 1:33 PM on May 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
You said that you don't want to argue so my advice is to remove yourself from the situation with whatever random excuse you like as suggested by others. Keep it simple, don't give details. "I can't be a part of this event anymore due to some personal issues." It's also not a lie since it sounds like you very understandably have issues with his person. That's one of many reasons that people make excuses: to prevent arguments/conflict.
If you want to be clear about why you don't want to do the event, I think you will probably end up arguing unless this dude is unlike most people. Most people do not take criticism well, even if it is constructive and kindly phrased.
Me, I would want to be clear and I would not care about any conflict that resulted. I would say: "you recently said some super offensive and unacceptable things, x thing and y thing. I'm not going to hang out with you anymore. It's a shame that our friendship has to end but I am done here."
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 3:20 PM on May 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
If you want to be clear about why you don't want to do the event, I think you will probably end up arguing unless this dude is unlike most people. Most people do not take criticism well, even if it is constructive and kindly phrased.
Me, I would want to be clear and I would not care about any conflict that resulted. I would say: "you recently said some super offensive and unacceptable things, x thing and y thing. I'm not going to hang out with you anymore. It's a shame that our friendship has to end but I am done here."
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 3:20 PM on May 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
However you end it, don’t say “I’m sorry.”
You’re not, nor should you be.
posted by BostonTerrier at 3:49 PM on May 31, 2022 [11 favorites]
You’re not, nor should you be.
posted by BostonTerrier at 3:49 PM on May 31, 2022 [11 favorites]
I disagree with some of the advice here about making a statement as you leave. While it certainly would feel good to tell him off, I think it will accomplish the opposite of what you want in multiple ways.
Your question said you don't want to argue: if that's the case, I don't think it make sense to make a statement that is essentially the beginning of an argument as you leave. It sounds like, based on the jocular way this person has made these comments, he feels very comfortable around you, and doesn't think you would take offence to these statements. If you drop a message to him saying "the casual sexism and racism is too much for me at his point" (to use one suggested phrasing) and then try to ghost him, he will likely have a moment of total whiplash and misunderstanding.
Then, as I see it, one of two things will happen.
One, he will try to reach out to you to explain/disagree/debate/counter. This runs against your stated desire not to argue.
Two, he will not reach out (or give up reaching out), but will take the offense and confusion he feels and... well probably do something counter-productive to the goals you want to achieve. He will not be hurt or 'owned' or at all put in his place, from his perspective. I seriously doubt he will take your words as an opportunity for reflection, or reconsideration, or self-growth. I do not doubt that he would share your email/message (or an exaggerated retelling of it) with likeminded others as an example of [right-wing talking point #5165]. This will reaffirm his existing beliefs, reaffirm the existing beliefs of others he shares it with (who will only have his context), and run counter to your desire to do some good in this situation (which is evident).
In my experience, the only way to really do some good in a situation with an individual like this is to sit down and have an exhausting conversation with them, which is (very rightfully) something you aren't interested in. So I think making up a neutral excuse and disappearing is the best, least harmful approach.
Again, I understand the desire to say something and tell him how wrong he is. But, in this particular situation, with your particular set of circumstances, it ain't worth it.
posted by ordinary_magnet at 4:12 PM on May 31, 2022 [9 favorites]
Your question said you don't want to argue: if that's the case, I don't think it make sense to make a statement that is essentially the beginning of an argument as you leave. It sounds like, based on the jocular way this person has made these comments, he feels very comfortable around you, and doesn't think you would take offence to these statements. If you drop a message to him saying "the casual sexism and racism is too much for me at his point" (to use one suggested phrasing) and then try to ghost him, he will likely have a moment of total whiplash and misunderstanding.
Then, as I see it, one of two things will happen.
One, he will try to reach out to you to explain/disagree/debate/counter. This runs against your stated desire not to argue.
Two, he will not reach out (or give up reaching out), but will take the offense and confusion he feels and... well probably do something counter-productive to the goals you want to achieve. He will not be hurt or 'owned' or at all put in his place, from his perspective. I seriously doubt he will take your words as an opportunity for reflection, or reconsideration, or self-growth. I do not doubt that he would share your email/message (or an exaggerated retelling of it) with likeminded others as an example of [right-wing talking point #5165]. This will reaffirm his existing beliefs, reaffirm the existing beliefs of others he shares it with (who will only have his context), and run counter to your desire to do some good in this situation (which is evident).
In my experience, the only way to really do some good in a situation with an individual like this is to sit down and have an exhausting conversation with them, which is (very rightfully) something you aren't interested in. So I think making up a neutral excuse and disappearing is the best, least harmful approach.
Again, I understand the desire to say something and tell him how wrong he is. But, in this particular situation, with your particular set of circumstances, it ain't worth it.
posted by ordinary_magnet at 4:12 PM on May 31, 2022 [9 favorites]
Be prepared for "can't you take a joke?" and "you're just too sensitive " and "everything is so (finger quotes) politically correct these days"and "I guess I'm just old school/an old fuddy-duddy" and "blonde jokes aren't racist or sexist".
I've recently very strategically tried to carefully and to allow certain individuals save face when talking about similar issue, and I'm reminded again that you can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into, and that a person changed against their will is of the same opinion still.
On preview, I see you are ready for the "no sense of humour" response.
posted by b33j at 4:18 PM on May 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've recently very strategically tried to carefully and to allow certain individuals save face when talking about similar issue, and I'm reminded again that you can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into, and that a person changed against their will is of the same opinion still.
On preview, I see you are ready for the "no sense of humour" response.
posted by b33j at 4:18 PM on May 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
If you want your quitting to act as a corrective on his behavior, you should ideally wait until he says something shitty and immediately respond "I've had it with your shit, friend'sname, I'm out." And then walk away. Correctives are more effective when they're administered immediately after the undesirable behavior.
If you just want out, send him an e-mail right now. The wording in your post is fine. Or just tell him "I can no longer contribute to this event" without an explanation. You're not making a statement, you're just maintaining a minimum level of politeness by not leaving him hanging.
posted by adamrice at 4:56 PM on May 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
If you just want out, send him an e-mail right now. The wording in your post is fine. Or just tell him "I can no longer contribute to this event" without an explanation. You're not making a statement, you're just maintaining a minimum level of politeness by not leaving him hanging.
posted by adamrice at 4:56 PM on May 31, 2022 [7 favorites]
I've had to deal with this a few times, to varying degrees. My go-to phrase is "Because of your [racist / misogynist] language on [date], I'm no longer able to [do the thing.]" Then block.
posted by basalganglia at 6:13 PM on May 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by basalganglia at 6:13 PM on May 31, 2022 [1 favorite]
Please do let him know that his racism and sexism have alienated you and cost him your friendship. It’s rather important that people get the feedback about what is and is not acceptable in polite society and that being racist and sexist is NOT.
posted by Bottlecap at 6:16 PM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 6:16 PM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: A real friend, not just someone I was helping with.
I was friends with his wife for 10 years before that, in a specialized group.
After she got too sick to do anything, he would take me out to breakfast a few times a year.
I know it sounds like I'm setting up a punchline here, but...he respected her too much and I simply have rules about these things (rules=no married).
So, yes, a real friend.
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 8:14 PM on May 31, 2022
I was friends with his wife for 10 years before that, in a specialized group.
After she got too sick to do anything, he would take me out to breakfast a few times a year.
I know it sounds like I'm setting up a punchline here, but...he respected her too much and I simply have rules about these things (rules=no married).
So, yes, a real friend.
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 8:14 PM on May 31, 2022
“I know it sounds like I'm setting up a punchline here, but...he respected her too much and I simply have rules about these things (rules=no married)”
Pardon? I’m not sure what this means.
posted by miles1972 at 8:25 PM on May 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
Pardon? I’m not sure what this means.
posted by miles1972 at 8:25 PM on May 31, 2022 [10 favorites]
"I'm not going to be able to continue helping you with the event. Here are all the passwords, information etc you need to continue on your own." Then leave, if in person, if doing it online, then just don't check your messages for while and leave them unread, unless you want him out of your life then just block him. Don't apologise, don't explain. You decide if you help him when the problems come up and he asks for more info or help. I would personally just restate, I'm sorry I can't help you with this event or tell him to fuck off which ever suits your endgoal here the best.
posted by wwax at 8:30 PM on May 31, 2022
posted by wwax at 8:30 PM on May 31, 2022
How I might go about it:
_____, I have been glad to count you as a friend for years, but your comments the other day were surprising and offensive. The casual sexism and racism you showed, in talking down to us as "girls" and then mocking a serious and important social movement, made it clear to me that I can't continue to work on this event with you.
(Any pertinent details you must pass off go here)
I am also questioning whether you are someone I will choose to spend my own time with in the future. In the meantime I would prefer you do not contact me for any reason.
-Rumi'sLeftSock
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 8:37 PM on May 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
_____, I have been glad to count you as a friend for years, but your comments the other day were surprising and offensive. The casual sexism and racism you showed, in talking down to us as "girls" and then mocking a serious and important social movement, made it clear to me that I can't continue to work on this event with you.
(Any pertinent details you must pass off go here)
I am also questioning whether you are someone I will choose to spend my own time with in the future. In the meantime I would prefer you do not contact me for any reason.
-Rumi'sLeftSock
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 8:37 PM on May 31, 2022 [3 favorites]
Consider separating the two issues.
1) opting out of the event 2)having a conversation about why you are opting out.
Do 1) now as neutrally and clearly as you can. No need to get into the reasons why Do 2) later, when the first emotional reaction has passed and you have had time to decide what you want to achieve from the conversation.
posted by Zumbador at 9:55 PM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
1) opting out of the event 2)having a conversation about why you are opting out.
Do 1) now as neutrally and clearly as you can. No need to get into the reasons why Do 2) later, when the first emotional reaction has passed and you have had time to decide what you want to achieve from the conversation.
posted by Zumbador at 9:55 PM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Your follow up needs some clarification because at the moment it’s raising ALL the questions and if you’re implying what I think you miiiighhht be, I would in no way consider this person to be a real friend and my interaction with him would have ended at those breakfasts.
posted by Jubey at 10:49 PM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 10:49 PM on May 31, 2022 [2 favorites]
Between I have always thought of him as a mostly good guy if not particularly politically correct and A real friend, not just someone I was helping with, it doesn't sound like this type of behaviour should be a sudden shock.
You're clearly angry and justifiably so, but act in haste, repent in leisure, as the saying goes. It feels like there might be more going on here than these two specific comments he made. Is this a pattern of behaviour? Is this something you've educated yourself on and are seeing with fresh eyes for the first time? Is he getting too emotionally close ("he respected her too much and I simply have rules about these things") and you need an out that you don't have to feel guilty about?
If it is just those two comments then people above have given you plenty of ideas on things you can say to him. But I agree with those commentators who suggested cooling down and thinking about this before making an irrevocable decision.
This is a long relationship to throw away, and if he is your friend and he is a good guy then maybe he's earned the right for you to explain your position and give him a chance to apologise, rather than just cutting him off. It's not your responsibility to teach him (or anyone), but by the same token perhaps you have a chance to help someone you care about see the reality that others live in, and open his eyes. That's a powerful gift.
Whatever path you choose, I wish you well.
posted by underclocked at 12:20 AM on June 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
You're clearly angry and justifiably so, but act in haste, repent in leisure, as the saying goes. It feels like there might be more going on here than these two specific comments he made. Is this a pattern of behaviour? Is this something you've educated yourself on and are seeing with fresh eyes for the first time? Is he getting too emotionally close ("he respected her too much and I simply have rules about these things") and you need an out that you don't have to feel guilty about?
If it is just those two comments then people above have given you plenty of ideas on things you can say to him. But I agree with those commentators who suggested cooling down and thinking about this before making an irrevocable decision.
This is a long relationship to throw away, and if he is your friend and he is a good guy then maybe he's earned the right for you to explain your position and give him a chance to apologise, rather than just cutting him off. It's not your responsibility to teach him (or anyone), but by the same token perhaps you have a chance to help someone you care about see the reality that others live in, and open his eyes. That's a powerful gift.
Whatever path you choose, I wish you well.
posted by underclocked at 12:20 AM on June 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
So, it's been a long friendship and it may have verged on romantic at some point? Maybe that means this guy needs or deserves more clarification than would be the case otherwise. If so, clarify and be precise. For me, someone making fun of Black Lives Matter at this point in time would be an absolute deal breaker, a one-and-done. If I were breaking things off with someone over something on that level, I would spell it out.
On the other hand, if he was just someone who's always held somewhat retrograde views and it's getting to be more obvious now, I's say just disengage.
posted by BibiRose at 5:55 AM on June 1, 2022
On the other hand, if he was just someone who's always held somewhat retrograde views and it's getting to be more obvious now, I's say just disengage.
posted by BibiRose at 5:55 AM on June 1, 2022
It isn’t clear if you’re looking to end the friendship completely or just back out of this event. If the latter, I’d make up some excuse that something personal came up and I won’t be able to assist anymore, and then maybe do some amount of ghosting. In fact, I’d probably do that in either case.
If you think he’s decent and open-minded enough for a thoughtful conversation about why what he said is harmful, do it in person sometime. Don’t expect him to be receptive though. The comment about directions, and not only having but showing off the blonde figurine, are really juvenile and ignorant behaviors.
posted by wondermouse at 7:36 AM on June 1, 2022
If you think he’s decent and open-minded enough for a thoughtful conversation about why what he said is harmful, do it in person sometime. Don’t expect him to be receptive though. The comment about directions, and not only having but showing off the blonde figurine, are really juvenile and ignorant behaviors.
posted by wondermouse at 7:36 AM on June 1, 2022
Yeah I'll still reeling that a person would find that figurine funny, let alone want to PURCHASE and DISPLAY it. What a gross double whammy of racism and sexism.
It sounds like maybe you're giving him extra "good guy" points because he didn't try to hook up with you while married? You don't owe him friendship because he cleared that very low bar, if that's giving you pause.
posted by doift at 6:23 PM on June 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
It sounds like maybe you're giving him extra "good guy" points because he didn't try to hook up with you while married? You don't owe him friendship because he cleared that very low bar, if that's giving you pause.
posted by doift at 6:23 PM on June 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Well he responded alright, It's amusing to me when I am very specific (thanks to you all) and he responds with, "I too am tired of your bad behavior." Not very helpful. Well, I knew that he might not take kindly to my words, and that's okay. At least I said my piece.
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 6:29 PM on June 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 6:29 PM on June 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
He’s tired of YOUR bad behavior???? When I say that my eyebrows shot up so far they made acquaintance with the roof… You are well rid of him.
posted by Bottlecap at 8:50 PM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Bottlecap at 8:50 PM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Well, I guess if you write, you can assume someone will answer.
I get the feeling I'mswer. being baited, but look at this response:
I would appreciate if you would fulfill your commitment this Sunday to the open mike.
After that you and I can part company.
I don't believe I caused such a grevios [sic] offense.
But I too have had enough of your bad behavior.
Please fulfill you commitment and then you can choose not to participate with other ventures if you so choose.
Please be a professional.
I don't remember signing anything (I certainly gave him many free hours of my advice and input) and I always laugh when unprofessional people tell me I should be professional. Not to mention a sweeping generalization of my character ("your bad behavior") that is useless for contemplation or change.
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 11:17 AM on June 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I get the feeling I'mswer. being baited, but look at this response:
I would appreciate if you would fulfill your commitment this Sunday to the open mike.
After that you and I can part company.
I don't believe I caused such a grevios [sic] offense.
But I too have had enough of your bad behavior.
Please fulfill you commitment and then you can choose not to participate with other ventures if you so choose.
Please be a professional.
I don't remember signing anything (I certainly gave him many free hours of my advice and input) and I always laugh when unprofessional people tell me I should be professional. Not to mention a sweeping generalization of my character ("your bad behavior") that is useless for contemplation or change.
posted by Rumi'sLeftSock at 11:17 AM on June 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
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"The other day, you said, 'I know you girls aren't good with directions'. It's disrespectful and demeaning that you called me a girl - I'm a woman - and it's insulting to imply that I'm not good with directions. Assumptions like that keep women out of tech fields and contribute to a climate that presents women as unintelligent. I also take issue with your "blonde lives matter" figurine. Black Lives Matter is a serious and necessary movement to protect Black communities from unfair policing and racism, including state-sanctioned execution by racist police officers. It's not something to make fun of, and mocking it is disrespectful and racist. Both of those instances left me with a bad impression of you as someone who is disrespectful and disparaging of women's intelligence, and unsupportive of Black people's right to due process. I won't be coming to the event. I wanted to tell you directly because I think you need to know the impact of your comments and the slogans you display."
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:13 PM on May 31, 2022 [52 favorites]