I've been sober for 1.5 years, has anyone gone back to drinking?
May 7, 2022 10:12 PM Subscribe
This will be controversial but I'll be blunt in that I'm incredibly unhappy since I stopped drinking. I enjoy getting a full night's sleep, not getting hangovers and saving money. I'm lonely, bored and miss the camaraderie of drinking at a bar. I really got a sense of community from being a regular at a bar that I've not gotten elsewhere. I hate spending the weekends inside and not making smalltalk, it was really the only social outlet I had. Some details inside.
I'm not going to claim to be a saint, or say I wasn't a heavy drinker. I only drank at bars but I did drink frequently and heavily. After 15 years of hitting the local bar after work I stopped on my own, and it wasn't easy but once my sleep recovered I felt fine.
I work remotely, I'm male and in my 40s. I have no family and spend holidays alone. My friends from college all have families, and while they all pushed me to get sober no one reached out to me afterwards or always got busy when I wanted to hang out. I tried several AA groups but they didn't ring true to me. I tried biking groups, meetups, dating apps, etc. but nothing was the same as sitting at a bar next to someone you've known for 10 years and striking up a conversation.
Not that it matters but there were times before I quit where I noticed my drinking got much heavier and I stopped that way before I got sober. I never drank at home and tried actively monitor my drinking. I'm also not convinced all my friends from the bar were down and out, or extras from the movie Barfly. Even if they were, at this point I don't care. I enjoyed going somewhere that people were happy to see me and have intelligent or entertaining conversations.
Again, I've tried diverse groups but I'm in a medium sized town in the midwest. In most groups, people in my age range have outside social groups like existing friends or family or seem to have social issues. That may be me too, but I know a group I guess I fit in with. I've seen people go back to moderate drinking and I've also seen people convince themselves they can drink moderately and fall back into bad habits. I've also been apart of enough hobby groups to know that while drinking costs a lot and is supposedly a waste of time, I see it no different than someone hitting the golf course multiple times a week, taking expensive golf trips and spending it on gadgets.
My question more concretely is that I doubt people will say go back to drinking, or give it a chance. But has anyone noticed someone who might actually have gone back to moderate drinking? I've heard so many things from support groups that no one can go back to moderate drinking or that people convince themselves they can moderately drink but they can't that I'm hesitant but I've also heard things that are patently false. That I could never stop drinking on my own, or I'd fall into drinking immediately, or after I quit I'd realize how much better things were. And I've seen people for which all the above is true, so frankly I do not know who to believe.
The language and culture around alcohol and addiction are so loaded and full of myths and contradictions even from well intentioned organizations I am having a hard time navigating it.
I'm not going to claim to be a saint, or say I wasn't a heavy drinker. I only drank at bars but I did drink frequently and heavily. After 15 years of hitting the local bar after work I stopped on my own, and it wasn't easy but once my sleep recovered I felt fine.
I work remotely, I'm male and in my 40s. I have no family and spend holidays alone. My friends from college all have families, and while they all pushed me to get sober no one reached out to me afterwards or always got busy when I wanted to hang out. I tried several AA groups but they didn't ring true to me. I tried biking groups, meetups, dating apps, etc. but nothing was the same as sitting at a bar next to someone you've known for 10 years and striking up a conversation.
Not that it matters but there were times before I quit where I noticed my drinking got much heavier and I stopped that way before I got sober. I never drank at home and tried actively monitor my drinking. I'm also not convinced all my friends from the bar were down and out, or extras from the movie Barfly. Even if they were, at this point I don't care. I enjoyed going somewhere that people were happy to see me and have intelligent or entertaining conversations.
Again, I've tried diverse groups but I'm in a medium sized town in the midwest. In most groups, people in my age range have outside social groups like existing friends or family or seem to have social issues. That may be me too, but I know a group I guess I fit in with. I've seen people go back to moderate drinking and I've also seen people convince themselves they can drink moderately and fall back into bad habits. I've also been apart of enough hobby groups to know that while drinking costs a lot and is supposedly a waste of time, I see it no different than someone hitting the golf course multiple times a week, taking expensive golf trips and spending it on gadgets.
My question more concretely is that I doubt people will say go back to drinking, or give it a chance. But has anyone noticed someone who might actually have gone back to moderate drinking? I've heard so many things from support groups that no one can go back to moderate drinking or that people convince themselves they can moderately drink but they can't that I'm hesitant but I've also heard things that are patently false. That I could never stop drinking on my own, or I'd fall into drinking immediately, or after I quit I'd realize how much better things were. And I've seen people for which all the above is true, so frankly I do not know who to believe.
The language and culture around alcohol and addiction are so loaded and full of myths and contradictions even from well intentioned organizations I am having a hard time navigating it.
If the thing you’re missing is just the social aspect, and you don’t feel like being in a bar would be upsetting, why not ask your local to stock Lagunitas Hop, or Bitberger Drive, or grapefruit juice, strong ginger beer, and lime slices, or kombucha, or whatever NA drink you enjoy most? Even if they won’t stock it, many bars will allow you to pay corkage - in DC, I think I paid $5ish to have them open and serve a kombucha, and here in SF, I paid $24 for a 6-pack of Bitberger Drive to be served in nice cold glasses at a jazz club.
As long as the drinkers around you aren’t assholes who can’t handle a non-drinker, is there any problem with you forging a relationship with your local where you’re just a different kind of regular? Sleep is precious - I stopped drinking a few years ago in my late 30s because my sleep was garbage, and it’s made such a difference.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:31 PM on May 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
As long as the drinkers around you aren’t assholes who can’t handle a non-drinker, is there any problem with you forging a relationship with your local where you’re just a different kind of regular? Sleep is precious - I stopped drinking a few years ago in my late 30s because my sleep was garbage, and it’s made such a difference.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:31 PM on May 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
Here is my question for you. I don't know the answer.
If what you miss is the camraderie of being a regular at a bar, if you are otherwise perfectly content being sober, what is stopping you from going to your local bar, hanging out there, but drinking coke or seltzer water?
On preview other people have framed this differently but as someone who was sober I want you to explicitly ask yourself, would I be comfortable going to a bar and staying sober? Since what I am missing is the friendships?
posted by muddgirl at 10:35 PM on May 7, 2022 [14 favorites]
If what you miss is the camraderie of being a regular at a bar, if you are otherwise perfectly content being sober, what is stopping you from going to your local bar, hanging out there, but drinking coke or seltzer water?
On preview other people have framed this differently but as someone who was sober I want you to explicitly ask yourself, would I be comfortable going to a bar and staying sober? Since what I am missing is the friendships?
posted by muddgirl at 10:35 PM on May 7, 2022 [14 favorites]
And try and listen objectively to what excuses you are, perhaps, telling yourself for why you must drink.
posted by muddgirl at 10:37 PM on May 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 10:37 PM on May 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
Much of this is going to be down to your personal style — I’m that asshole that’s managed to be a drunk, then a junkie, then a drunk again, then a psychedelic ranger, then a tee-totaler and then a dilettante. In one life.
So, IMO, find a non-destructive drink that they’ll serve you at a bar (as repeatedly noted above).
…if you can’t manage that, then you need to not be around bars at all (IMO). Like, um, seriously. If seltzer doesn’t work, maybe you don’t need to be there after all because the reason you’re there is not the reason you’re telling yourself you’re there.
YMMV.
posted by aramaic at 10:42 PM on May 7, 2022 [22 favorites]
So, IMO, find a non-destructive drink that they’ll serve you at a bar (as repeatedly noted above).
…if you can’t manage that, then you need to not be around bars at all (IMO). Like, um, seriously. If seltzer doesn’t work, maybe you don’t need to be there after all because the reason you’re there is not the reason you’re telling yourself you’re there.
YMMV.
posted by aramaic at 10:42 PM on May 7, 2022 [22 favorites]
I think there’s something that was key for me that might be helpful for you - saving money, nicer skin, some other surface-level benefits were a nice bonus I got when I stopped drinking, but I didn’t stop drinking to save money or have less wrinkles or what have you. I stopped drinking to *feel better, and feel happier*. I didn’t expect emotions to come up when I did, but making that choice brought up tons of feelings that I’m still working with… five? years later (wow, it’s been a while!). I hadn’t found a partner, was working on the other side of the world, didn’t have any close friends… for me, not-drinking let me encounter those challenging feelings with gentleness and care, rather than pretending I didn’t feel them (in my case, by hanging out with the perfectly-nice but not-my-people people I worked with and who were by dint of circumstance the only people around to make friends with - and who all drank like fish).
Are you in therapy? That also might be a good place to talk about your wants and needs for a social life, and to learn more about yourself in ways that could really help you build a life you want, rather than one where you go back to a habit that didn’t serve you because you don’t feel you can make the connections you want without it.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:47 PM on May 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Are you in therapy? That also might be a good place to talk about your wants and needs for a social life, and to learn more about yourself in ways that could really help you build a life you want, rather than one where you go back to a habit that didn’t serve you because you don’t feel you can make the connections you want without it.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:47 PM on May 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm not an expert on alcoholism, but is your problem that you are totally unable to hang out in a bar and not get drunk? Because if that's the case, then that's a totally different question than "Can you just hang out in the bar and pretend you're the designated driver and be cool?" Because hanging out in the bar not drinking alcohol (maybe volunteer to be a DD to someone?) is doable. I know plenty of people who do it. I had one friend who literally could not consume anything in the bar but would still hang out in the bar.
But if you are mentally in "If I'm in a bar I gotta chug 'em" mode, then unfortunately it sounds like "can you hang out there sober" is not the answer. Your "can I be a moderate drinker?" question unfortunately sounds like it's leaning towards "nope, gotta drink in the bar." And since you've apparently tried every single meetup (and I'm guessing coffee shop hangouts) and nothing remotely works for you...I dunno, man. Maybe the best answer I got is that you can't hang out sober in a bar until you well... can hang out sober in a bar without it being a big issue. Sorry I don't have a better answer on that one.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:50 PM on May 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
But if you are mentally in "If I'm in a bar I gotta chug 'em" mode, then unfortunately it sounds like "can you hang out there sober" is not the answer. Your "can I be a moderate drinker?" question unfortunately sounds like it's leaning towards "nope, gotta drink in the bar." And since you've apparently tried every single meetup (and I'm guessing coffee shop hangouts) and nothing remotely works for you...I dunno, man. Maybe the best answer I got is that you can't hang out sober in a bar until you well... can hang out sober in a bar without it being a big issue. Sorry I don't have a better answer on that one.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:50 PM on May 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Also you were going to your local for 15 years and you've been sober for less than 2. Of course you won't have community outside the bar. That doesn't mean that 13 years from now, if you stay sober and keep showing up to places where you don't drink, you won't have a community.
posted by muddgirl at 11:02 PM on May 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 11:02 PM on May 7, 2022 [29 favorites]
I knew two hardcore ex alcoholics that went back to drinking after an extremely long period of sobriety. It didn’t go well for them. (They both eventually passed away from their addictions).
I know people in AA develop strong ties but maybe it’s not as light hearted as hanging out at a bar for you? You could go to a gym and work out for two hours a day, 5 days a week, and make friends. Someone I know told me about a friend who competes in weightlifting competitions. Or learn an instrument and play in bands and go to open mics. Or join a softball team or a tennis league or a bowling league. I think it’s about the consistency of doing something fun with the same people.
posted by gt2 at 11:36 PM on May 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
I know people in AA develop strong ties but maybe it’s not as light hearted as hanging out at a bar for you? You could go to a gym and work out for two hours a day, 5 days a week, and make friends. Someone I know told me about a friend who competes in weightlifting competitions. Or learn an instrument and play in bands and go to open mics. Or join a softball team or a tennis league or a bowling league. I think it’s about the consistency of doing something fun with the same people.
posted by gt2 at 11:36 PM on May 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
You've been sober for 1.5 years, which has also overlapped with this bonkers pandemic. Are you sure part of your struggles to socialize outside of drinking aren't related to that? You said you've tried meet ups, biking groups, and dating apps... how much of a try have you given them? A lot of folks I know only started biking in groups again last summer, and things slowed down again over the winter. Dating can be great, but yeah, you're not going to make a friend there who is the same as someone you've known for ten years.
I'm in my late 40s and rebuilt almost my entire social life following a divorce a few years ago. It's shifted a bit during the past few years, but it isn't impossible to find and a build a new set of friends.
As for the folks you've known for ten years: could you get in touch with them and ask them to go for a walk?
posted by bluedaisy at 12:19 AM on May 8, 2022 [32 favorites]
I'm in my late 40s and rebuilt almost my entire social life following a divorce a few years ago. It's shifted a bit during the past few years, but it isn't impossible to find and a build a new set of friends.
As for the folks you've known for ten years: could you get in touch with them and ask them to go for a walk?
posted by bluedaisy at 12:19 AM on May 8, 2022 [32 favorites]
I've known people who were actually moderate drinkers who stopped and then later resumed moderate drinking. This doesn't sound like you. This question sounds like it was written by a serious, but functional alcoholic looking to jump headfirst off the wagon for social reasons.
I'd bet you're headed back to the bar regardless of what you read here, but I'd challenge you: stay sober all night while there, then come back and read this post again. If your friends and camaderie are truly meaningful, you won't need a drop of alcohol. If this question is what I think it is, it shouldn't take more than one night to find out.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 12:23 AM on May 8, 2022 [35 favorites]
I'd bet you're headed back to the bar regardless of what you read here, but I'd challenge you: stay sober all night while there, then come back and read this post again. If your friends and camaderie are truly meaningful, you won't need a drop of alcohol. If this question is what I think it is, it shouldn't take more than one night to find out.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 12:23 AM on May 8, 2022 [35 favorites]
The aging out of college friendships thing and Seek You loneliness stuff is REAL so hold space for that in your heart.
But! It's not like bars are some silver bullet third space. There are LOTS of third spaces. The most insta-community group I know is CrossFit. Man, CrossFit people just love HANGIN OUT, talkin CrossFit, grillin, hikin, etc.
Become a coffeeshop regular. Become a library regular. Become a local park regular and watch the cycle of the seasons with fresh eyes, make friends with your local birds (totally not kidding, birdwatching is amazing).
Otherwise I would steel my nerves and ask your best buddy from your local to join you for a walk. Or bowling. Or a burger.
My best advice is "choose the bigger life." You got this.
posted by athirstforsalt at 2:02 AM on May 8, 2022 [25 favorites]
But! It's not like bars are some silver bullet third space. There are LOTS of third spaces. The most insta-community group I know is CrossFit. Man, CrossFit people just love HANGIN OUT, talkin CrossFit, grillin, hikin, etc.
Become a coffeeshop regular. Become a library regular. Become a local park regular and watch the cycle of the seasons with fresh eyes, make friends with your local birds (totally not kidding, birdwatching is amazing).
Otherwise I would steel my nerves and ask your best buddy from your local to join you for a walk. Or bowling. Or a burger.
My best advice is "choose the bigger life." You got this.
posted by athirstforsalt at 2:02 AM on May 8, 2022 [25 favorites]
Came in to say what muddgirl said - if what you miss is striking up conversation with people you’ve known for 10 years, then you need to give your new social outlets a lot longer to bed in. Absolutely, going to a mountain biking club for a couple of months won’t give you the same depth of friendship you had with your decade-long bar buddies, but going consistently for a couple of years will get you there. And the best thing you can do is start the clock now.
Here’s another thought test similar to those above - all those great buddies you have in bars, would they be prepared to meet you for a totally non-alcohol/bar based activity? Would they come for a walk with you, or a bike ride or a picnic (without bringing beers)? If the answer is no, or it’s “Yes, but it wouldn’t be fun the way hanging with them at the bar is fun,” that does slightly suggest that you were friends with the drink, not with the person.
posted by penguin pie at 2:09 AM on May 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
Here’s another thought test similar to those above - all those great buddies you have in bars, would they be prepared to meet you for a totally non-alcohol/bar based activity? Would they come for a walk with you, or a bike ride or a picnic (without bringing beers)? If the answer is no, or it’s “Yes, but it wouldn’t be fun the way hanging with them at the bar is fun,” that does slightly suggest that you were friends with the drink, not with the person.
posted by penguin pie at 2:09 AM on May 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
I tried biking groups, meetups, dating apps, etc.
FWIW all of those sound pretty different than what you're looking for - I'd imagine there's not a ton of conversation you can have while on a bike; dating is conversations but with people you don't already know or feel comfortable with. Meetups I guess would depend on what type of meetup they are. Anyway, trying to think about what kinds of activities might be more social in the way that you're looking for. Regular tabletop rpg groups, regular knitting groups, and regular dinner groups come to mind - things where talking and being social is a big part of the event. I don't know if things like that match your interests, but if not maybe try looking outside your normal interests for activities where you meet the same people on a regular basis and the activity invites conversation.
posted by trig at 2:28 AM on May 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
FWIW all of those sound pretty different than what you're looking for - I'd imagine there's not a ton of conversation you can have while on a bike; dating is conversations but with people you don't already know or feel comfortable with. Meetups I guess would depend on what type of meetup they are. Anyway, trying to think about what kinds of activities might be more social in the way that you're looking for. Regular tabletop rpg groups, regular knitting groups, and regular dinner groups come to mind - things where talking and being social is a big part of the event. I don't know if things like that match your interests, but if not maybe try looking outside your normal interests for activities where you meet the same people on a regular basis and the activity invites conversation.
posted by trig at 2:28 AM on May 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
There's a point in any habit/activity/change, when you want to go back - when going back seems like it will obviously be _better_ than the status quo. I quit smoking about 12 years ago and I _still_ think about starting up again.
One of the insidious things about drinking (for me) is that it acts like a small cloud that follows you, everywhere all the time. It brings its own weather, it shapes how you get through the day and the night and over time it becomes familiar and welcome. I loved drinking: I love wine and I love whiskey and I love beer. But it doesn't love me. And it took me about 35 years to recognise that. I thought we had a thing going but, no, not really. It's been a really hard relationship to break because it was also keeping other relationships at bay. Better relationships. Yes, frankly, it's all been a bit weird but also better that we split up. Deeper. And it's the deeper, really, that I've needed.
(A lot of the answers here reads as though they are from hard-won experience.
I'd bet you're headed back to the bar regardless ... but I'd challenge you: stay sober all night while there, then come back and read this post again. is a challenge I don't think I would have met. But it is 100% font-of-wisdom truth. You've asked the question, the answer, as is so often the case, is DTMF - however incredibly hard that may be. )
(One last thing, at times alcohol elicited big emotions from me: it might be helpful to look for an activity that is at least as stimulating as drinking can be. What that might be is up to you but think big, and then think bigger.)
It's not easy, but none of the worthwhile shit is.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:51 AM on May 8, 2022 [13 favorites]
One of the insidious things about drinking (for me) is that it acts like a small cloud that follows you, everywhere all the time. It brings its own weather, it shapes how you get through the day and the night and over time it becomes familiar and welcome. I loved drinking: I love wine and I love whiskey and I love beer. But it doesn't love me. And it took me about 35 years to recognise that. I thought we had a thing going but, no, not really. It's been a really hard relationship to break because it was also keeping other relationships at bay. Better relationships. Yes, frankly, it's all been a bit weird but also better that we split up. Deeper. And it's the deeper, really, that I've needed.
(A lot of the answers here reads as though they are from hard-won experience.
I'd bet you're headed back to the bar regardless ... but I'd challenge you: stay sober all night while there, then come back and read this post again. is a challenge I don't think I would have met. But it is 100% font-of-wisdom truth. You've asked the question, the answer, as is so often the case, is DTMF - however incredibly hard that may be. )
(One last thing, at times alcohol elicited big emotions from me: it might be helpful to look for an activity that is at least as stimulating as drinking can be. What that might be is up to you but think big, and then think bigger.)
It's not easy, but none of the worthwhile shit is.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:51 AM on May 8, 2022 [13 favorites]
Are there any men's sheds in your area? You're not the only one who wants conversations and community.
You say you're in the midwest, so I'm going to assume that means USA, so I gave you the link for that.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:54 AM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
You say you're in the midwest, so I'm going to assume that means USA, so I gave you the link for that.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:54 AM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think AA just doesn’t fit all people. There are other models such as Club Soda in the UK that might be a better and more supportive fit - I am not sure what you have where you live but a lot of their stuff is online.
posted by ozgirlabroad at 4:28 AM on May 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by ozgirlabroad at 4:28 AM on May 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Respectfully and with much compassion, I don’t think starting to drink again will solve your problem. Your problem is a lack of social connection, companionship, laughter, relaxation, warm happy community… all the things that alcohol gives us (until… it doesn’t any more).
It seems to me that THIS is the precise challenge, for many people, of being sober. This is the work before us. How do we once again find these easy social connections and camaraderie which make life joyful and meaningful, when the shortcut to them has suddenly been removed? It’s not easy but it’s definitely possible. I would strongly encourage you to keep looking for this in your life, and not to give up on your sobriety. Support groups don’t have the monopoly on healthy community nor on happy, committed sobriety. You don’t have to buy into the mythology and moralising around addiction and recovery, nor the 12 step way of thinking, in order to heal and get well and be part of a community.
I wish I had time to write more, but for now I wish you luck, and the ability to play the tape forward. I would encourage you to look for a therapist or teacher who shares your values, has an outlook on life you admire or can learn from, and can help you tackle the very deep, real, and profoundly painful challenge of your existential loneliness, without resorting to substance abuse. Sending you all the good and healing vibes possible. I’m 4.5 years sober and I felt like you for almost 2 years. I’m grateful every day that I stuck it out. It gets so much better.
posted by Weng at 4:54 AM on May 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
It seems to me that THIS is the precise challenge, for many people, of being sober. This is the work before us. How do we once again find these easy social connections and camaraderie which make life joyful and meaningful, when the shortcut to them has suddenly been removed? It’s not easy but it’s definitely possible. I would strongly encourage you to keep looking for this in your life, and not to give up on your sobriety. Support groups don’t have the monopoly on healthy community nor on happy, committed sobriety. You don’t have to buy into the mythology and moralising around addiction and recovery, nor the 12 step way of thinking, in order to heal and get well and be part of a community.
I wish I had time to write more, but for now I wish you luck, and the ability to play the tape forward. I would encourage you to look for a therapist or teacher who shares your values, has an outlook on life you admire or can learn from, and can help you tackle the very deep, real, and profoundly painful challenge of your existential loneliness, without resorting to substance abuse. Sending you all the good and healing vibes possible. I’m 4.5 years sober and I felt like you for almost 2 years. I’m grateful every day that I stuck it out. It gets so much better.
posted by Weng at 4:54 AM on May 8, 2022 [15 favorites]
I don’t have your answers but I want to validate for you the idea that part of going to a bar and hanging out is in fact drinking. I don’t drink, and I crave the community aspect of bars, but go without, because if what you want is the community, then fitting into that community includes having a drink. Sure, occasionally I can get a seltzer, but being a regular drinking the seltzer doesn’t really work. It’s kind of like the drink is the excuse to talk to the stranger. “Oh I’m not trying to meet my new best friend I just happen to be enjoying my beer but sure let’s chat” is the vibe rather than “I am actually here to bother you about your day so let’s size each other up first to see if it’s worth it.”
Sure, it might be the liquor you’re craving like everyone seems to be suggesting, but if you firmly believe it’s the community, I am agreeing that it’s a very real possibility.
I don’t know you well enough to know if your black and white approach is the only one that will work for you. Maybe ask your friends. “Hey do you think I can handle having just one beer?”
Maybe one option is asking the bartender at your regular place to stop you after 1-2 drinks, or that you won’t be able to come back?
I don’t want to be your devil, if your drinking makes you hit people or not show up to work and likely to lose your job, or causes other serious problems, please do not explore the possibilities of a smaller drinking footprint or whatever we should call it.
posted by cacao at 5:03 AM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Sure, it might be the liquor you’re craving like everyone seems to be suggesting, but if you firmly believe it’s the community, I am agreeing that it’s a very real possibility.
I don’t know you well enough to know if your black and white approach is the only one that will work for you. Maybe ask your friends. “Hey do you think I can handle having just one beer?”
Maybe one option is asking the bartender at your regular place to stop you after 1-2 drinks, or that you won’t be able to come back?
I don’t want to be your devil, if your drinking makes you hit people or not show up to work and likely to lose your job, or causes other serious problems, please do not explore the possibilities of a smaller drinking footprint or whatever we should call it.
posted by cacao at 5:03 AM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
So… why not both?
You’ve already shown yourself that you can kick the regular drinking, so I’ll take your word that you’re not addicted. Go to the bar once a week - on a Friday night or whenever most of your buddies are there - and do the meet-ups, dating & biking on the other nights of the week.
Sounds like it could be a well balanced social life to me but I’m pretty relaxed about drinking, ymmv I guess.
posted by rd45 at 5:36 AM on May 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
You’ve already shown yourself that you can kick the regular drinking, so I’ll take your word that you’re not addicted. Go to the bar once a week - on a Friday night or whenever most of your buddies are there - and do the meet-ups, dating & biking on the other nights of the week.
Sounds like it could be a well balanced social life to me but I’m pretty relaxed about drinking, ymmv I guess.
posted by rd45 at 5:36 AM on May 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
I read an article about addiction several years ago (so forget source) that opened with a story of a woman who did the AA route in her 20s, and then in her 40s started drinking again and it was totally fine. But the key way that she was different than you, is that her circumstances had changed radically - she had been getting drunk in bars and parties with other 20-somethings, now she was having a glass of wine or two with her husband and kids over dinner.
So, your question really is, "After only 1.5 years of sobriety, can I go back to the exact same environment that resulted in very heavy drinking to the point that family and friends were worried about me, and behave differently than I had for 15 years?" The answer to that is likely no, I'm afraid.
And yeah, I agree with bluedaisy that you need to take into account that the pandemic has made making friends much harder.
Do you have any of the phone numbers of your bar buddies? Why not suggest some non-drinking daytime activity with them?
posted by coffeecat at 6:02 AM on May 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
So, your question really is, "After only 1.5 years of sobriety, can I go back to the exact same environment that resulted in very heavy drinking to the point that family and friends were worried about me, and behave differently than I had for 15 years?" The answer to that is likely no, I'm afraid.
And yeah, I agree with bluedaisy that you need to take into account that the pandemic has made making friends much harder.
Do you have any of the phone numbers of your bar buddies? Why not suggest some non-drinking daytime activity with them?
posted by coffeecat at 6:02 AM on May 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
I've known a few people who have gotten sober and then decided they could just drink moderately. It hasn't worked out for them. I'm willing to believe it can work for some people whose drinking was enough of a problem to make them get sober; I suspect it's very few people, though, and in your shoes I wouldn't want to roll the dice on being one of them.
It sounds like part of what you miss is the "being a regular" experience. So, yes, I would recommend becoming a regular somewhere else - a coffeeshop, a restaurant, a library, a club of some sort. It's not going to quickly provide you with the same hit of belonging of somewhere you've known everyone for ten years; that's not a reasonable expectation. But you can slowly build up some version of those "regular" feelings/relationships over time, if you stick with it. I would recommend you do this even if you do decide to try drinking moderately again. Having multiple places to go and feel welcome and part of a community can only be a good thing.
I'm sorry; I know how hard this is. Getting sober so often means losing pretty much everyone you knew and all of your hobbies and favorite places, and starting all of that over from scratch is painful and not fun and, yes, sometimes just really fucking boring.
posted by Stacey at 6:13 AM on May 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
It sounds like part of what you miss is the "being a regular" experience. So, yes, I would recommend becoming a regular somewhere else - a coffeeshop, a restaurant, a library, a club of some sort. It's not going to quickly provide you with the same hit of belonging of somewhere you've known everyone for ten years; that's not a reasonable expectation. But you can slowly build up some version of those "regular" feelings/relationships over time, if you stick with it. I would recommend you do this even if you do decide to try drinking moderately again. Having multiple places to go and feel welcome and part of a community can only be a good thing.
I'm sorry; I know how hard this is. Getting sober so often means losing pretty much everyone you knew and all of your hobbies and favorite places, and starting all of that over from scratch is painful and not fun and, yes, sometimes just really fucking boring.
posted by Stacey at 6:13 AM on May 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Can you become a regular at a local coffee shop instead? This is what we were doing pre-pandemic.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:23 AM on May 8, 2022
posted by heatherlogan at 6:23 AM on May 8, 2022
Here are two activities popular with adult men that involve showing up every day or a few times a week and seeing the same people over and over, that have some downtime interrupted by periodic activity which encourages chatting:
* Archery, and this one is covid-friendly.
* Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or other martial arts. My father started this in his 60s and has a new friend group of other men of all ages.
posted by muddgirl at 6:37 AM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
* Archery, and this one is covid-friendly.
* Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or other martial arts. My father started this in his 60s and has a new friend group of other men of all ages.
posted by muddgirl at 6:37 AM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
After years of problematic drinking and intermittent sobriety, I was able to have a moderate relationship with alcohol. It involved years of therapy, for my drinking and other issues. But I didn’t go back to the bar or the club; I’d have a beer after mowing the lawn, or a Bloody Mary at brunch with my friends, or a beer at a cookout/baseball game. A drink, because I enjoyed the taste, and also I had to drive. I did tie one on once, at a wedding, and the next two days were so miserable I remembered another reason why I’d quit drinking.
I tried AA, and the only sponsors I could get were people who were supposed to be in NA and didn’t like it, so they invaded AA. There is a difference between alcoholism and heroin addiction, so their guidance wasn’t helpful for me.
In January of 2019 I had some interpersonal issues that made me realize before I fell into any old patterns that whatever semblance of sanity I had was more important than drinking, so I gave it up. And plenty of times, especially in the Old Days ™ I was miserable that I couldn’t “cut loose” and find people to hang out with at the bar and that ALL THESE WAYS OF SOCIALIZING WERE GONE OMG JUST GONE AND I AM SO LONELY. Then Covid! And I couldn’t go to the gym!
I went and met more people in my neighborhood and now hang out with my neighbors. I joined USTA tennis teams and have met wonderful people, and we go out to eat or hang out sometimes and there’s no pressure to drink - I’ve met other non-drinkers who turned to sport.
For a little while, I drank the Heineken 0%ers, but I developed a gluten intolerance, so that was out. I will drink the Lagunitas Hop Water, and I’ve found some good hop teas; I think a hoppy soda/coke would be fantastic. I love a club soda or tonic with lime, and that’s usually what I drink in social situations. There are also bartenders who make some really good non-alcoholic craft cocktails, with their own recipes. They’re fantastic and you can still drive and don’t feel like crap in the morning.
I can safely say that the only thing I miss about drinking is a beer after yard work or when I go to watch a sporting event. But as you can see above, I couldn’t do that if I wanted to, anymore, anyway. And ZingZang is delicious without vodka; hell the vodka took away some of the savory salty deliciousness.
I’m probably biased, but I think you should stick it out a bit longer. And I can tell you that none of my friends give two hoots that I quit drinking; it’s a non-issue and I still get invited everywhere and do everything.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 7:21 AM on May 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
I tried AA, and the only sponsors I could get were people who were supposed to be in NA and didn’t like it, so they invaded AA. There is a difference between alcoholism and heroin addiction, so their guidance wasn’t helpful for me.
In January of 2019 I had some interpersonal issues that made me realize before I fell into any old patterns that whatever semblance of sanity I had was more important than drinking, so I gave it up. And plenty of times, especially in the Old Days ™ I was miserable that I couldn’t “cut loose” and find people to hang out with at the bar and that ALL THESE WAYS OF SOCIALIZING WERE GONE OMG JUST GONE AND I AM SO LONELY. Then Covid! And I couldn’t go to the gym!
I went and met more people in my neighborhood and now hang out with my neighbors. I joined USTA tennis teams and have met wonderful people, and we go out to eat or hang out sometimes and there’s no pressure to drink - I’ve met other non-drinkers who turned to sport.
For a little while, I drank the Heineken 0%ers, but I developed a gluten intolerance, so that was out. I will drink the Lagunitas Hop Water, and I’ve found some good hop teas; I think a hoppy soda/coke would be fantastic. I love a club soda or tonic with lime, and that’s usually what I drink in social situations. There are also bartenders who make some really good non-alcoholic craft cocktails, with their own recipes. They’re fantastic and you can still drive and don’t feel like crap in the morning.
I can safely say that the only thing I miss about drinking is a beer after yard work or when I go to watch a sporting event. But as you can see above, I couldn’t do that if I wanted to, anymore, anyway. And ZingZang is delicious without vodka; hell the vodka took away some of the savory salty deliciousness.
I’m probably biased, but I think you should stick it out a bit longer. And I can tell you that none of my friends give two hoots that I quit drinking; it’s a non-issue and I still get invited everywhere and do everything.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 7:21 AM on May 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
I've been close with several alcoholics and what you are describing is word-for-word what I heard them say after they were sober for a bit and wanted to return to drinking. I hear what you are saying about the experience of alcohol-use to create camaraderie - I think that is something drug users of all stripes can relate to. The only other place I've found something similar is with travelers, usually to unusual places staying in hostels or other communities that encourage people to come together - something that breaks down the social norms of distance and forces some connection (like WOOFing or organized group hiking/biking in desolate areas etc.). Instead of going to the bar, would you consider a trip?
posted by Toddles at 7:34 AM on May 8, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 7:34 AM on May 8, 2022 [11 favorites]
I know a lot of people who successfully went from heavy drinking to moderate drinking, including my father. The "abstinence forever" message that US addiction services tend to promote isn't the only way to go, though it is the only way that works for SOME people.
Are you confident that you can recognize it if you develop a problem again, and take the necessary steps to nip it in the bud? If so, spending one night a week at a bar, while continuing to build other social networks, seems like it could be a great addition to your life. If not, well, you probably shouldn't try it.
posted by metasarah at 7:35 AM on May 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
Are you confident that you can recognize it if you develop a problem again, and take the necessary steps to nip it in the bud? If so, spending one night a week at a bar, while continuing to build other social networks, seems like it could be a great addition to your life. If not, well, you probably shouldn't try it.
posted by metasarah at 7:35 AM on May 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
So let me start this out by saying I am not an alcoholic. But when I was in my late teens/early 20s, drinking meant getting drunk, every time. I didn't especially like the taste of alcohol, so if I was drinking it was to get drunk and cut loose. I quit drinking when I got pregnant and didn't drink much at all afterwards because I didn't ever want my kid to see me sloppy drunk.
Over the years I developed a taste for beer, and the occasional Margarita or Bloody Mary, but I rarely drank more than one or two no matter where I was or who I was with. Getting drunk wasn't really a thing for me any more. This is how I am to this day. When I go out with people who drink, I will have one or at the most two drinks. A big part of what keeps me from drinking more is knowing I have to drive home. I simply refuse to drive if I've had too much. So I sip my drink slowly, alternating with water or a soft drink, and stop drinking alcohol completely about an hour before it's time to leave. I still have a good time with the conversation but even though my companions often drink much more, I don't try to keep up. When the waitress comes around I say "I'm good for now." I say all this to illustrate what moderate social drinking looks like.
On a few occasions, I've been out with people who wound up getting quite drunk as the evening progressed. As a non-drunk person, I can tell you that all the great conversations you think you've had while drunk with your drunk friends, are not so great when you are sober. Drunk people are annoying, loud and stupid. It's only fun if you are on the same wavelength. I suspect what is likely to happen if you go back to hanging out in bars is that you will find the conversation incredibly unsatisfying and then you will want to drink to get back to that old familiar comaraderie, and just like that you will be a problem drinker again.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 8:29 AM on May 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
Over the years I developed a taste for beer, and the occasional Margarita or Bloody Mary, but I rarely drank more than one or two no matter where I was or who I was with. Getting drunk wasn't really a thing for me any more. This is how I am to this day. When I go out with people who drink, I will have one or at the most two drinks. A big part of what keeps me from drinking more is knowing I have to drive home. I simply refuse to drive if I've had too much. So I sip my drink slowly, alternating with water or a soft drink, and stop drinking alcohol completely about an hour before it's time to leave. I still have a good time with the conversation but even though my companions often drink much more, I don't try to keep up. When the waitress comes around I say "I'm good for now." I say all this to illustrate what moderate social drinking looks like.
On a few occasions, I've been out with people who wound up getting quite drunk as the evening progressed. As a non-drunk person, I can tell you that all the great conversations you think you've had while drunk with your drunk friends, are not so great when you are sober. Drunk people are annoying, loud and stupid. It's only fun if you are on the same wavelength. I suspect what is likely to happen if you go back to hanging out in bars is that you will find the conversation incredibly unsatisfying and then you will want to drink to get back to that old familiar comaraderie, and just like that you will be a problem drinker again.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 8:29 AM on May 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
As a non-drunk person, I can tell you that all the great conversations you think you've had while drunk with your drunk friends, are not so great when you are sober.
Came here to say the same thing.
I so know the feeling you are describing even though I'd never been a drinker. I miss the depth of connection I used to have but that is hard to recreate because I kind of aged out of an activity related group.
Please hang in there. Your old thing is no longer accessible but it is possible to find a new thing.
Have you tried getting involved in local politics?
posted by M. at 8:39 AM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Came here to say the same thing.
I so know the feeling you are describing even though I'd never been a drinker. I miss the depth of connection I used to have but that is hard to recreate because I kind of aged out of an activity related group.
Please hang in there. Your old thing is no longer accessible but it is possible to find a new thing.
Have you tried getting involved in local politics?
posted by M. at 8:39 AM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
The thing is Alcohol is a social lubricant. As someone without family and working remote the bar scene was a place to have relaxed interactions with others. It would be good to find out why you were a heavy drinker so you can tackle that end of things. If you can pinpoint why, then you can figure out how to go moderate.
I was a moderate drinker and quit for a year but like you, I need that social outing with friends. I now don't drink at home at all and only with these friends. Also I found that drinking non-alcoholic beverages like soda with cranberry juice wasn't helping. Instead I now drink Radler beer or a Guinness which has less alcohol than many beers. I also drink water in between sips. So really not getting drunk and keeping it low key. This minimal amount of drinking is working for me and I'm not feeling the urge to drink more.
Truly we need that social outing and it can't be stressed enough how important it is.
posted by Coffeetyme at 8:52 AM on May 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was a moderate drinker and quit for a year but like you, I need that social outing with friends. I now don't drink at home at all and only with these friends. Also I found that drinking non-alcoholic beverages like soda with cranberry juice wasn't helping. Instead I now drink Radler beer or a Guinness which has less alcohol than many beers. I also drink water in between sips. So really not getting drunk and keeping it low key. This minimal amount of drinking is working for me and I'm not feeling the urge to drink more.
Truly we need that social outing and it can't be stressed enough how important it is.
posted by Coffeetyme at 8:52 AM on May 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Abstinence models of recovery work great for some people but are certainly not the only path forward even for most people. But I don’t think you should go back to “moderate” drinking until you’ve solved some of the issues you think the alcohol is addressing, namely loneliness and a lack of belonging. Alcohol is not the cure for loneliness, even though it often seems like it is; what it does is just mask that loneliness feeling for as long as you are drunk. Imagine you had a broken bone — it hurts a LOT less when you are eight beers in! But that does not set the bone or put it in a cast or any of that stuff. I think you still have a broken bone, and you shouldn't drink until it heals.
I hope you will try therapy. I also hope you will consider moving. If your town is so hostile to single and sober people that there is no way to manage while you live there, MOVE. (And if you feel like you can’t because of X person or commitment or whatever, maybe you’re not as adrift as you think?)
posted by Charity Garfein at 8:57 AM on May 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
I hope you will try therapy. I also hope you will consider moving. If your town is so hostile to single and sober people that there is no way to manage while you live there, MOVE. (And if you feel like you can’t because of X person or commitment or whatever, maybe you’re not as adrift as you think?)
posted by Charity Garfein at 8:57 AM on May 8, 2022 [9 favorites]
The thing about drinking is that it’s a pretty worthless primary activity. Almost any activity except driving can be combined with drinking. I’ve gotten blasted at botanical gardens, political fundraisers, concerts, movies, and so many other places. Even if you’re going to a bar planning to drink, there are so many activities you can do there: pub quiz, shooting pool, karaoke. You can drink when you go out to dinner, you can drink as you watch sports, there’s even a drinking game so you can get drunk watching the State of the Union. Any of these is a fun activity to do with friends. Your problem is that, instead of doing those things for 15 years and building a friend group based on mutual interests who also happen to drink together, you spent 15 years just drinking and not doing any of the fun stuff. The quantity of alcohol you consumed or your mannerisms while drunk are not what made you a problem drinker. Not to put too fine a point on it, the problem was that you chose drinking over becoming an interesting person with hobbies.
I think it’s possible to drink moderately, and assuming you’re telling the truth about your previous drinking, it doesn’t sound like you were a hopeless alcoholic. It doesn’t sound like you were much of a burden on others, so yeah, I bet you’d be fine if you drank again. But you’re 15 years behind everyone else in terms of seeing drinking as a secondary activity to do while you’re pursuing other hobbies. Of course it’ll seem like everyone else is different - they’ve got a decade and a half head start. The solution isn’t to go back to doing what put you behind in the first place.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:08 AM on May 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think it’s possible to drink moderately, and assuming you’re telling the truth about your previous drinking, it doesn’t sound like you were a hopeless alcoholic. It doesn’t sound like you were much of a burden on others, so yeah, I bet you’d be fine if you drank again. But you’re 15 years behind everyone else in terms of seeing drinking as a secondary activity to do while you’re pursuing other hobbies. Of course it’ll seem like everyone else is different - they’ve got a decade and a half head start. The solution isn’t to go back to doing what put you behind in the first place.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:08 AM on May 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
My alcoholic loved one has developed a vibrant social scene...in AA. He has a sponsor. He has a men's meeting he regularly "attends" (used to be in person; still on Zoom for now). He has a smaller group of guys who get on Zoom every day at 4 to bitch and make jokes. These guys -- these addicts! these alcoholics! -- are his best friends, and I'm really glad he has them.
My alcoholic loved one got sober long before I met him, and then had a period when he thought he could start drinking in moderation. Spoiler: it was a total fail, and almost re-destroyed his life. Maybe it's possible for some people. Maybe one of those people is you? Or maybe it's just gonna mean starting from square one, again.
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:29 AM on May 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
My alcoholic loved one got sober long before I met him, and then had a period when he thought he could start drinking in moderation. Spoiler: it was a total fail, and almost re-destroyed his life. Maybe it's possible for some people. Maybe one of those people is you? Or maybe it's just gonna mean starting from square one, again.
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:29 AM on May 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
There’s some metric out there for how many hours it takes for someone to be a friend. So maybe a way to reframe this: it’s not that those folks were your friends because they were special folks you connected with; they were your friends because you spent so much time at the bar. I’m not sure how often you went, but say it was a total of ten hours during a week. How many hours have you spent doing the bike meet up? Is it even ten hours total, never mind in a week?
posted by bluedaisy at 11:46 AM on May 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 11:46 AM on May 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
I feel like I'll probably get in trouble for this, but I do know someone who was sober for many years and has gone back to moderate/occasional drinking and using weed and is fine.
My ex was someone I knew through some work he did for us--this was many, many years ago--before we started dating, and I found out that one of the reasons he sort of disappeared for a while at one point was because he'd been pulled over for a DUI and sent to this facility in lieu of jail time. He had to go there daily for a few weeks, and after that to AA regularly and quit everything cold turkey. Before the DUI, he would go to a bar after work, drink a couple pitchers and play video games, then take home those big mouth beers and drink most of a six pack, and smoke weed or drop acid at least a few times a week. (He also biked to work, so that was how he'd managed to never be pulled over before that night, when he borrowed a friend's car.) He was sober the entire time we were together, would very occasionally take a sip of a cocktail I'd ordered, but he was good about staying sober even though he'd stopped going to AA by the time we dated.
We stayed friends after we split up, but there was a period where I wasn't in much contact with him, and I found out that in those years (and when he'd started dating a really great lady), he'd begun drinking a little bit again, because he'd been reading about people successfully being able to drink alcohol and use weed and wanted to experiment to see if sobriety had to be the only hard and fast rule. I was a little surprised by this, honestly, when we started having more contact again. But he has a cocktail at night with his wife before dinner, and that's all he really drinks unless they're out, and then it depends on if he's driving or not what he'll have.
The weed is a little iffier, for me, because there've been times when we were going for a walk (he lives near me) and it turned out he was a bit high and I find it insanely frustrating to be around people in altered states, trying to have actual conversations or do things and they're not even present. It's not always, but it was still a bit of strangeness for me, because he'd never done any of that when I was with him and it's just very...different. Most of the time, however, he's not altered when I'm around him, but I think that since his wife was using it, he missed it and wanted to smoke with her. I've gone to one of the cannabis shops with him; he seems fairly casual, but as someone who never uses it, it's hard for me to judge what's a dependency problem and what's someone behaving in a manner I find tiresome and uninteresting.
Anyways--he's not hanging out in a bar and drinking with other people who are drinking, or hanging out in a basement with a bunch of other dudes and smoking out, so I don't know how much those social aspects impact using substances; most of it's something he primarily shares with his wife, and when I've gone out to dinner with him when he's bacheloring it. I don't really know much about sobriety/addictions at all, because it's never really been a part of my life. But you asked this question, and I had an answer. I'm definitely not advocating anything, I'm just saying that yes, I know someone who was sober, went back to drinking/smoking weed, and seems to be largely okay.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 12:45 PM on May 8, 2022
My ex was someone I knew through some work he did for us--this was many, many years ago--before we started dating, and I found out that one of the reasons he sort of disappeared for a while at one point was because he'd been pulled over for a DUI and sent to this facility in lieu of jail time. He had to go there daily for a few weeks, and after that to AA regularly and quit everything cold turkey. Before the DUI, he would go to a bar after work, drink a couple pitchers and play video games, then take home those big mouth beers and drink most of a six pack, and smoke weed or drop acid at least a few times a week. (He also biked to work, so that was how he'd managed to never be pulled over before that night, when he borrowed a friend's car.) He was sober the entire time we were together, would very occasionally take a sip of a cocktail I'd ordered, but he was good about staying sober even though he'd stopped going to AA by the time we dated.
We stayed friends after we split up, but there was a period where I wasn't in much contact with him, and I found out that in those years (and when he'd started dating a really great lady), he'd begun drinking a little bit again, because he'd been reading about people successfully being able to drink alcohol and use weed and wanted to experiment to see if sobriety had to be the only hard and fast rule. I was a little surprised by this, honestly, when we started having more contact again. But he has a cocktail at night with his wife before dinner, and that's all he really drinks unless they're out, and then it depends on if he's driving or not what he'll have.
The weed is a little iffier, for me, because there've been times when we were going for a walk (he lives near me) and it turned out he was a bit high and I find it insanely frustrating to be around people in altered states, trying to have actual conversations or do things and they're not even present. It's not always, but it was still a bit of strangeness for me, because he'd never done any of that when I was with him and it's just very...different. Most of the time, however, he's not altered when I'm around him, but I think that since his wife was using it, he missed it and wanted to smoke with her. I've gone to one of the cannabis shops with him; he seems fairly casual, but as someone who never uses it, it's hard for me to judge what's a dependency problem and what's someone behaving in a manner I find tiresome and uninteresting.
Anyways--he's not hanging out in a bar and drinking with other people who are drinking, or hanging out in a basement with a bunch of other dudes and smoking out, so I don't know how much those social aspects impact using substances; most of it's something he primarily shares with his wife, and when I've gone out to dinner with him when he's bacheloring it. I don't really know much about sobriety/addictions at all, because it's never really been a part of my life. But you asked this question, and I had an answer. I'm definitely not advocating anything, I'm just saying that yes, I know someone who was sober, went back to drinking/smoking weed, and seems to be largely okay.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 12:45 PM on May 8, 2022
If your social comfort zone is at bars, but you don't want to risk compromising your sobriety, you might consider looking into the Sinclair Method, which uses "pharmacological extinction—the use of an opiate blocker to turn habit-forming behaviors into habit-erasing behaviors. The effect returns a person’s craving for alcohol to its pre-addiction state."
It seems to have good science behind it, and is fairly well known in other countries. If it's an appropriate treatment for you, you are prescribed a Naltrexone pill, which you take an hour before you plan to drink and, over time, in three-quarters of all cases, you just slowly lose the desire to drink. Like any medication, however, there are pros and cons. You can find more information about it on the 3C Foundation.
posted by Violet Blue at 2:19 PM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
It seems to have good science behind it, and is fairly well known in other countries. If it's an appropriate treatment for you, you are prescribed a Naltrexone pill, which you take an hour before you plan to drink and, over time, in three-quarters of all cases, you just slowly lose the desire to drink. Like any medication, however, there are pros and cons. You can find more information about it on the 3C Foundation.
posted by Violet Blue at 2:19 PM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
I am a recovering alcoholic with 34 years of continual and contented sobriety via membership in, and practice of the principles of, Alcoholics Anonymous. I am adamantly not suggesting you are like me, or "should" follow my example. I am here only to address your concern about losing the feeling of comradery / companionship that you found by going to bars and hanging out with associates there. I have long found and continue to find just that exactly sort of comradery / companionship in the AA groups I belong to. I associate with them at the club and outside; during meetings and at other venues. They are by far my best friends in the world. Sure, we talk about recovery, sobriety, and AA principles, but much of the talk is on life things. We get to know each other. We check up on each other. We have each other's backs. I can go to these people with any problem or situation in the world and trust that I have understanding, non-judgmental ears. I would not know what to do without them.
Just as people differ from one to the other, so do AA groups. One size definitely does not fit all. Each has its own distinct vibe. People who hit one meeting or group and, from that, draw conclusions about AA people and AA as a whole, are sadly mistaken, in my experience. It's best to a) try many different groups, and b) when you find one that "feels" okay to you, keep going. Get to know the folks. Let them get to know you.
I was never much of a bar person, but what I remember (!) about my drinking-in-bar days (and I had many of them) is that the relationships were cursory, the conversation banal. Of course, I was there to drink, get drunk, and get numb, and so were most of the people around me, so there's that. Maybe you've been more of the "Cheers" persuasion and if so, that's fine. I'm not saying you're like me, or your experience is like mine. I have the disease. I will certainly die with the disease, but not of it, at least not today. Just my .02, pre-tax. Good luck.
posted by charris5005 at 4:00 PM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
Just as people differ from one to the other, so do AA groups. One size definitely does not fit all. Each has its own distinct vibe. People who hit one meeting or group and, from that, draw conclusions about AA people and AA as a whole, are sadly mistaken, in my experience. It's best to a) try many different groups, and b) when you find one that "feels" okay to you, keep going. Get to know the folks. Let them get to know you.
I was never much of a bar person, but what I remember (!) about my drinking-in-bar days (and I had many of them) is that the relationships were cursory, the conversation banal. Of course, I was there to drink, get drunk, and get numb, and so were most of the people around me, so there's that. Maybe you've been more of the "Cheers" persuasion and if so, that's fine. I'm not saying you're like me, or your experience is like mine. I have the disease. I will certainly die with the disease, but not of it, at least not today. Just my .02, pre-tax. Good luck.
posted by charris5005 at 4:00 PM on May 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
I once was a young woman with a soft spot for Old Man Bars, that I've kept with age. But at least twice a year I skip drinking for a month, because I just get BORED of alcohol, and it's nice to have a break, and whatever. I still go to my Old Man Bar and have a Lagunitas Hoppy Refresher (which I love!) or a club soda and lime, or whatever. I dropped in at my bar at opening time (early morning!) a few weeks ago, because I was passing by and it's fun to talk to the Old Men. I drank a club soda. If you REALLY want the camaraderie of your bar, you can enjoy it without alcohol. If you can't ... that's the booze talking.
posted by cyndigo at 5:30 PM on May 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by cyndigo at 5:30 PM on May 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
if you go back to drinking you Will Drink A Lot More. and next time you try to stop a part of you will be like 'nah, tried that, didn't work'.
Don't do it, but hanging out in a bar drinking cool non alc drinks is a poss.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:37 PM on May 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Don't do it, but hanging out in a bar drinking cool non alc drinks is a poss.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:37 PM on May 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I agree with others that it’s not totally clear which you’re really truly asking: 1) can a former heavy drinker quit and then unquit at some lighter healthier level and not go back to the unwelcome heavy level, or 2) is it really so bad to return to functional alcoholism if getting drunk at bars was my only social/emotional outlet and I’m lonely and no other outlet has worked? But I think 2) is what people are going to hear, based on how addiction works.
I notice you don’t call yourself an alcoholic but a heavy drinker. That may be. Unfortunately, this is exactly what an alcoholic would say! Because denial and minimization and exceptionalism are part of it. It’s textbook. So because you’re saying the textbook things addicts say, it’s hard for us to know.
I actually agree with you that the language and morality around addiction is extremely black and white in our culture, to the point where all heavy drinkers are considered alcoholics and abstinence is the only way to deal with alcoholism, which can feel off-putting and unrealistic and sanctimonious and shallow.
The self-identified heavy drinkers AND alcoholics I know all cut back or cut off for periods, all throughout their lives, and then they’re back. Because they’re addicted. Moderation doesn’t work with regular drinking, because you build tolerance so you simply have to drink more to get to the feeing you’re clearly after. You know this of course, but what feels like a complicated question can come down to simple science.
Middle age has been a tough time for the addicts in my life (including junkies and binge eaters.) It’s a lonely time, but also your body really can’t do what it used to. I know a 48 year old who was court-ordered into rehab, came out of it convinced they could practice moderation, and nearly died because their body couldn’t handle it anymore. I’m not saying this is you, but your age and physical limits are going to be major factors.
It’s your choice but you have to be clear about what you’re really choosing.
posted by kapers at 5:48 PM on May 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
I notice you don’t call yourself an alcoholic but a heavy drinker. That may be. Unfortunately, this is exactly what an alcoholic would say! Because denial and minimization and exceptionalism are part of it. It’s textbook. So because you’re saying the textbook things addicts say, it’s hard for us to know.
I actually agree with you that the language and morality around addiction is extremely black and white in our culture, to the point where all heavy drinkers are considered alcoholics and abstinence is the only way to deal with alcoholism, which can feel off-putting and unrealistic and sanctimonious and shallow.
The self-identified heavy drinkers AND alcoholics I know all cut back or cut off for periods, all throughout their lives, and then they’re back. Because they’re addicted. Moderation doesn’t work with regular drinking, because you build tolerance so you simply have to drink more to get to the feeing you’re clearly after. You know this of course, but what feels like a complicated question can come down to simple science.
Middle age has been a tough time for the addicts in my life (including junkies and binge eaters.) It’s a lonely time, but also your body really can’t do what it used to. I know a 48 year old who was court-ordered into rehab, came out of it convinced they could practice moderation, and nearly died because their body couldn’t handle it anymore. I’m not saying this is you, but your age and physical limits are going to be major factors.
It’s your choice but you have to be clear about what you’re really choosing.
posted by kapers at 5:48 PM on May 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think there are a few different "types" of alcoholics broadly speaking. (I am an alcoholic - sober for 11 years). This is just my impression from spending lots of time in AA mtgs, in various detox and outpatient programs. I'm not saying everyone fits into one of these categories, but it's a pattern I've noticed.
There's the "once I start, I can't stop" sort of impulsive, binge drinking style alcoholics. It's really a brain chemistry thing. I think this type of person is almost never going to be able to go back to drinking.
Then there's the, "My life is fucked up, and I'm drinking to cope with my problems" type. These are often the people who end up being "dry drunks." I think this type of person has a better chance of being able to drink in moderation IF they really sort through their shit first, and depending on how bad their drinking got at its worst. But it's also playing with fire, b/c drinking moderately makes it easier to drink more heavily when things get worse.
Then there's the type who may not even be true alcoholics but they realized they were drinking more than they were comfortable with/more than was healthy, so they decide to stop. I think this is often the case for people who partied a lot in their twenties, and then settle down. This type probably has the best chances of drinking moderately. (This is sometimes called a "high bottom" drunk in AA i.e. their "rock bottom" moment was very tame).
FWIW, I'm definitely a combo of the first two types. Do you think you fall into the first type? It sounds like you didn't have just one or two beers at the bar. But only you can answer that.
But here's what I tell myself when I think about drinking again: So I really LOVE Diet Coke. Some might say I was "addicted" to it. But the minute it started causing health problems for me, I quit, and didn't look back. And if Diet Coke had ever caused me even 1% of the problems alcohol caused in my life, I would have quit it in a heartbeat, and never even consider going back. The fact that I still feel the call to drink again sometimes, even after 11 years, even after alcohol nearly destroyed my life, just proves to me that I am an alcoholic, and I can never safely drink again.
That's me though. I've been in your position. I struggled a lot with ambivalence about sobriety (prior to my hopefully last relapse 11 years ago). I spent time rationalizing, mourning, wondering how I would have friends without alcohol. And I was 23 when I got sober. Socializing in your 20s as a sober alcoholic is HARD. But by 23, I was already a 'round the clock drinker. I showed up to work drunk. It was bad. And I wish I had listened to all the people who tried to gently and not so gently convince me to stop sooner. But for me, I had to see it through until the end.
It may not be as easy, but I think you can find other ways to socialize. And maybe there are some things you would benefit from working on in therapy. And sure, there are some people who can go back to moderate drinking, but in my experience, that number of former alcoholics moderate drinkers is a tiny fraction compared to the number of alcoholics who convinced themselves they could safely go back to moderate drinking only to watch it torpedo their life.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:27 PM on May 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
There's the "once I start, I can't stop" sort of impulsive, binge drinking style alcoholics. It's really a brain chemistry thing. I think this type of person is almost never going to be able to go back to drinking.
Then there's the, "My life is fucked up, and I'm drinking to cope with my problems" type. These are often the people who end up being "dry drunks." I think this type of person has a better chance of being able to drink in moderation IF they really sort through their shit first, and depending on how bad their drinking got at its worst. But it's also playing with fire, b/c drinking moderately makes it easier to drink more heavily when things get worse.
Then there's the type who may not even be true alcoholics but they realized they were drinking more than they were comfortable with/more than was healthy, so they decide to stop. I think this is often the case for people who partied a lot in their twenties, and then settle down. This type probably has the best chances of drinking moderately. (This is sometimes called a "high bottom" drunk in AA i.e. their "rock bottom" moment was very tame).
FWIW, I'm definitely a combo of the first two types. Do you think you fall into the first type? It sounds like you didn't have just one or two beers at the bar. But only you can answer that.
But here's what I tell myself when I think about drinking again: So I really LOVE Diet Coke. Some might say I was "addicted" to it. But the minute it started causing health problems for me, I quit, and didn't look back. And if Diet Coke had ever caused me even 1% of the problems alcohol caused in my life, I would have quit it in a heartbeat, and never even consider going back. The fact that I still feel the call to drink again sometimes, even after 11 years, even after alcohol nearly destroyed my life, just proves to me that I am an alcoholic, and I can never safely drink again.
That's me though. I've been in your position. I struggled a lot with ambivalence about sobriety (prior to my hopefully last relapse 11 years ago). I spent time rationalizing, mourning, wondering how I would have friends without alcohol. And I was 23 when I got sober. Socializing in your 20s as a sober alcoholic is HARD. But by 23, I was already a 'round the clock drinker. I showed up to work drunk. It was bad. And I wish I had listened to all the people who tried to gently and not so gently convince me to stop sooner. But for me, I had to see it through until the end.
It may not be as easy, but I think you can find other ways to socialize. And maybe there are some things you would benefit from working on in therapy. And sure, there are some people who can go back to moderate drinking, but in my experience, that number of former alcoholics moderate drinkers is a tiny fraction compared to the number of alcoholics who convinced themselves they could safely go back to moderate drinking only to watch it torpedo their life.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:27 PM on May 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
How about this. You have 1.5 years sober and put a lot of work into it. Why not table the question of whether to drink again for six months? You don’t need to decide now. In the mean time, take some real steps to address your depression and isolation:
- find a therapist actually trained in CBT or ACT.
- consider taking an SSRI
- try a bunch of different AA meetings
- stop going to random meetups, but find some thing you legitimately want to do in your free time
- it’s a cliche, but do some volunteer work. find something that you can really contribute to based on your professional skills.
After six months of making a diligent effort, you can revisit whether you want to drink again.
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:55 PM on May 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
- find a therapist actually trained in CBT or ACT.
- consider taking an SSRI
- try a bunch of different AA meetings
- stop going to random meetups, but find some thing you legitimately want to do in your free time
- it’s a cliche, but do some volunteer work. find something that you can really contribute to based on your professional skills.
After six months of making a diligent effort, you can revisit whether you want to drink again.
posted by haptic_avenger at 7:55 PM on May 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
Just chiming in to second 'blue violets' mention of the Sinclair Method. For most people that try it, it works well and is an alternative to abstinence. The basic idea is that drinking causes your body to release endogenous endorphins, which is reinforcing for drinking. The Naltrexone that you take while practicing the method blocks that (but not other effects of drinking) and for most people, over time, it makes drinking substantially less attractive. It can be difficult to find a knowledgable prescribing physician in the US, but it can also be worth it to hunt one out.
posted by u2604ab at 8:17 PM on May 8, 2022
posted by u2604ab at 8:17 PM on May 8, 2022
All of your friends pushed you to get sober? Do you think you had a worse problem than this question wants to admit?
There’s lots of social things to do that don’t require drinking. It sounds like your mind is made up which I get, but it’s not a true thing your brain is telling you.
For the record, I quit drinking by realizing what society and my own brain was telling me about necessity was wrong. The AA method is subbing one identity for another but you can just… not have an identity around it if you work on that. It’s complicated, and I respect the people who do need that new identity, they are some great people I have met through the years. AA people do flip their shit on hearing it though so.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:31 PM on May 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
There’s lots of social things to do that don’t require drinking. It sounds like your mind is made up which I get, but it’s not a true thing your brain is telling you.
For the record, I quit drinking by realizing what society and my own brain was telling me about necessity was wrong. The AA method is subbing one identity for another but you can just… not have an identity around it if you work on that. It’s complicated, and I respect the people who do need that new identity, they are some great people I have met through the years. AA people do flip their shit on hearing it though so.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:31 PM on May 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've also been apart of enough hobby groups to know that while drinking costs a lot and is supposedly a waste of time, I see it no different than someone hitting the golf course multiple times a week, taking expensive golf trips and spending it on gadgets.
yeah but golf doesn't give you cancer and liver disease
on the other hand, golf is extraordinarily boring and booze is terrific, any sensible person would rather talk to drunks than to golfers. no argument there. but it doesn't bode well for your success with moderation if you're pretending the facts away before you even pick up a glass again.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:52 AM on May 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
yeah but golf doesn't give you cancer and liver disease
on the other hand, golf is extraordinarily boring and booze is terrific, any sensible person would rather talk to drunks than to golfers. no argument there. but it doesn't bode well for your success with moderation if you're pretending the facts away before you even pick up a glass again.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:52 AM on May 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
You ask whether it is possible to go from heavy drinking to moderate drinking. Why is it that you weren't drinking moderately before? litera scripta manet describes people who partied a lot in their 20s, settled down and stopped drinking. There are also people who drank heavily in their 20s and have ended up drink moderately or lightly in their 30s and beyond, without ever giving up or considering themselves having a problem with alcohol. Why is that you're not part of that group? What could you change that would make it easier to think in the same way that these people do about alcohol? I think it may be possible for you to drink moderately, but if you do exactly the same thing that you were doing before, you are likely to end up with the same results. You need to change something. I don't know whether that change will mean that you enjoy hanging out with those people in the same way as previously.
If it's any help, I now drink substantially less than I did in my 20s. This is because I had a period of not drinking which reset my tolerance for alcohol. This meant that I felt like I got drunk at about twice the speed I previously did. To compensate, I started alternating alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks, and sometimes drinking radlers rather than straight beer. I've now gotten to the point where I just naturally drink less of an evening when I'm drinking, although I still occasionally have a really big night. Rather than stopping drinking, or stopping socialising, I changed how I drank when I socialised and that was enough for me to continue to be happy with my relationship with alcohol.
posted by plonkee at 5:39 AM on May 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
If it's any help, I now drink substantially less than I did in my 20s. This is because I had a period of not drinking which reset my tolerance for alcohol. This meant that I felt like I got drunk at about twice the speed I previously did. To compensate, I started alternating alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks, and sometimes drinking radlers rather than straight beer. I've now gotten to the point where I just naturally drink less of an evening when I'm drinking, although I still occasionally have a really big night. Rather than stopping drinking, or stopping socialising, I changed how I drank when I socialised and that was enough for me to continue to be happy with my relationship with alcohol.
posted by plonkee at 5:39 AM on May 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I didn't read all of the above comments but my personal experience might be helpful.
After a period of very heavy drinking in my early 20s, I was sober for 1.5 years. I then began drinking moderately again and have been able to maintain that level of mostly moderate drinking. I think that the break between college binge drinking and growing up a bit really helped me gain some perspective. Clearly YMMV.
posted by schyler523 at 7:50 AM on May 9, 2022
After a period of very heavy drinking in my early 20s, I was sober for 1.5 years. I then began drinking moderately again and have been able to maintain that level of mostly moderate drinking. I think that the break between college binge drinking and growing up a bit really helped me gain some perspective. Clearly YMMV.
posted by schyler523 at 7:50 AM on May 9, 2022
I’ve been thinking about you. I don’t think you’re a person who partied too much in college or whatever, and having grown up, will easily adjust to a moderate level because your lifestyle has changed to the typical grown-up lifestyle. Lots of people have this experience— but I don’t think it’s relevant to your situation.
You say you went to the bar as an adult, both after work and on weekends, and drank heavily to where you got hangovers, to the exclusion of other activities and social connections, for 15 years.
Therefore the likelihood you’re an alcoholic is high, and in that case it’s unconscionable to encourage an addict to return to their old crowd, location, and substance.
Sorry. I’ve been thinking about you because your question really resonates with me. I wish there were an easier answer, but the ugly truth is that sobriety isn’t rewarding for everyone, even if it’s necessary for your survival. Especially if the reason you drank was to fill some emptiness you haven’t figured out how to otherwise fill, or to live with. That’s why most addicts are on an on/off cycle even with all the support in the world.
AA hasn’t worked for you, but have you considered therapy (not necessarily to focus on drinking, but to give yourself the special attention and care you might need right now?)
posted by kapers at 12:18 PM on May 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
You say you went to the bar as an adult, both after work and on weekends, and drank heavily to where you got hangovers, to the exclusion of other activities and social connections, for 15 years.
Therefore the likelihood you’re an alcoholic is high, and in that case it’s unconscionable to encourage an addict to return to their old crowd, location, and substance.
Sorry. I’ve been thinking about you because your question really resonates with me. I wish there were an easier answer, but the ugly truth is that sobriety isn’t rewarding for everyone, even if it’s necessary for your survival. Especially if the reason you drank was to fill some emptiness you haven’t figured out how to otherwise fill, or to live with. That’s why most addicts are on an on/off cycle even with all the support in the world.
AA hasn’t worked for you, but have you considered therapy (not necessarily to focus on drinking, but to give yourself the special attention and care you might need right now?)
posted by kapers at 12:18 PM on May 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
This Naked Mind is the book that helped me reframe my identity. The book Atomic Habits actually also reinforced it since it seems we're basically Identity --> Cue --> Craving --> Action --> Habit. Disrupting the identity and then the cue is how to remove a habit (or forming the identity and placing the cue is how to create one).
If you don't replace the identity, every day is a struggle against craving.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:13 AM on May 10, 2022
If you don't replace the identity, every day is a struggle against craving.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:13 AM on May 10, 2022
they all pushed me to get sober
If your friends all urged you to become sober, I would keep a laser-sharp focus on what they said... there were probably many extremely sound and justifiable reasons why multiple people whom you like and trust guided you toward changing your life in this way. I guarantee you that they know what they are talking about.
I quit drinking more than five years ago. Like you, I do miss the fun and the camaraderie of being at the bar. But I would never trade this for the gifts of sobriety and the personal growth that I have experienced as a result.
I occasionally go to the bar and drink soda water while friends drink. But this is not a good long-term solution. If you start to spend all of your free time at the bar, and you really become part of bar culture again, you will inevitably start to drink again, and you will begin to engage in the same behaviors that alienated the people you like and trust.
Eight years ago, I quit drinking for 14 months before I fell off the wagon and started drinking again. I told myself that, after this hiatus, I would be able to moderately drink and be functional. But when I resumed I went right back to all of those terrible behaviors I had when I was drinking. I spiraled downward and drank for another nine months before I quit drinking permanently in 2016. If your drinking was such a problem that your friends told you to quit, I guarantee you that all of the reasons why your friends urged you to stop will return, and will be even worse this time. Alcoholism is a progressive disease... it always gets worse.
Listen to your friends. Don't drink again. You will hit rock bottom and it will be excruciating.
You have to find other friends and activities that fit with your sober lifestyle. This past year-and-a-half has been tough. I've been there. Keep trying. There are lots of ways to meet people that aren't so destructive to you than the bar. Don't give up.
I wish you the best, sincerely. Memail me if you need more help. I have been there and know exactly what you are going through. Please don't hesitate to reach out.
posted by fenwaydirtdog at 3:26 PM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
If your friends all urged you to become sober, I would keep a laser-sharp focus on what they said... there were probably many extremely sound and justifiable reasons why multiple people whom you like and trust guided you toward changing your life in this way. I guarantee you that they know what they are talking about.
I quit drinking more than five years ago. Like you, I do miss the fun and the camaraderie of being at the bar. But I would never trade this for the gifts of sobriety and the personal growth that I have experienced as a result.
I occasionally go to the bar and drink soda water while friends drink. But this is not a good long-term solution. If you start to spend all of your free time at the bar, and you really become part of bar culture again, you will inevitably start to drink again, and you will begin to engage in the same behaviors that alienated the people you like and trust.
Eight years ago, I quit drinking for 14 months before I fell off the wagon and started drinking again. I told myself that, after this hiatus, I would be able to moderately drink and be functional. But when I resumed I went right back to all of those terrible behaviors I had when I was drinking. I spiraled downward and drank for another nine months before I quit drinking permanently in 2016. If your drinking was such a problem that your friends told you to quit, I guarantee you that all of the reasons why your friends urged you to stop will return, and will be even worse this time. Alcoholism is a progressive disease... it always gets worse.
Listen to your friends. Don't drink again. You will hit rock bottom and it will be excruciating.
You have to find other friends and activities that fit with your sober lifestyle. This past year-and-a-half has been tough. I've been there. Keep trying. There are lots of ways to meet people that aren't so destructive to you than the bar. Don't give up.
I wish you the best, sincerely. Memail me if you need more help. I have been there and know exactly what you are going through. Please don't hesitate to reach out.
posted by fenwaydirtdog at 3:26 PM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Have you considered hanging out at bars and drinking just club soda or ginger ale or something and not alcohol? You can still hang out and chat, but you just don't drink. Why not try that first?
posted by blnkfrnk at 10:31 PM on May 7, 2022 [29 favorites]