How can I get people to stop partying on my sidewalk?
December 6, 2021 1:36 PM Subscribe
We live in a crowded Brooklyn neighborhood, right next to a large apartment building. We bought our house several months ago, and since we've moved in we have people on the sidewalk right below our bedroom window playing music, drinking, and smoking weed until late at night, including opening our front gate to sit on our stoop. Not in front of any other house on the block - just our house.
I've asked the people doing this to please have some consideration for the fact that a family with small kids lives here, but they laughed at me and said that they were here first, and if I don't like it, I should move. One woman said, "Fuck you, we came with the house." I wish I were kidding.
I've noticed that they're taking advantage of a low wall with a wrought-iron fence that runs around our postage-stamp front yard to place drinks, hang speakers, bags, and coats, and sit. I've tried installing a light in the front, to no effect. I'm thinking of replacing the low wall with something less friendly to people who want to sit there for hours. A different kind of fence, a higher wall, or maybe a hedge. Anyone have any experience dealing with a problem like this? Are physical changes likely to make any difference? It saddens me that I'm thinking about resorting to hostile architecture to address the problem, but the cops don't care about issues like this, the neighbors think it's funny that we want to be able to sleep, and I'm running out of ideas.
I've asked the people doing this to please have some consideration for the fact that a family with small kids lives here, but they laughed at me and said that they were here first, and if I don't like it, I should move. One woman said, "Fuck you, we came with the house." I wish I were kidding.
I've noticed that they're taking advantage of a low wall with a wrought-iron fence that runs around our postage-stamp front yard to place drinks, hang speakers, bags, and coats, and sit. I've tried installing a light in the front, to no effect. I'm thinking of replacing the low wall with something less friendly to people who want to sit there for hours. A different kind of fence, a higher wall, or maybe a hedge. Anyone have any experience dealing with a problem like this? Are physical changes likely to make any difference? It saddens me that I'm thinking about resorting to hostile architecture to address the problem, but the cops don't care about issues like this, the neighbors think it's funny that we want to be able to sleep, and I'm running out of ideas.
sprinklers
posted by KayQuestions at 1:55 PM on December 6, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by KayQuestions at 1:55 PM on December 6, 2021 [18 favorites]
Set up speakers and play music that they'll hate. Country music, maybe. Or classical. Businesses have used this technique to drive away loiterers.
posted by Leontine at 2:04 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Leontine at 2:04 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Lock your front gate.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:08 PM on December 6, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:08 PM on December 6, 2021 [20 favorites]
Seconding sprinklers.
posted by essexjan at 2:10 PM on December 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 2:10 PM on December 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
There must be some fine line between "how dare you be annoyed by this, yuppie!" and "play offensive music and run a sprinkler" and I think that is what OP is asking for. Everyone in NYC has to accept some level of noise and music and weed smoke, but it isn't weird or presumptuous that you don't want people who don't live there to sit on your stoop and play loud music into the wee hours. On the other hand, as I'm sure you already know, escalating this will only turn an annoying situation into a horrendous one.
It kind of sounds like you stalked down there one night, pissed off, and gave them the "can you please have some consideration that small kids live here?" line. Your annoyance is justified, but the execution was off. (As a childless person I always get a little annoyed by the "uhhhh excuse me but I have kids so give me better treatment" thing). You simply have to try again and be the bigger person. Try to get to know them a little, maybe get into the habit of saying "hey how's it going?" when you see them. Erase all the bad vibes and "fuck you, we come with the building" bullshit that came before and start over in a friendly and neighborly way. Then you can maybe negotiate with them. This is the only way you will be able to fix this.
posted by cakelite at 2:11 PM on December 6, 2021 [86 favorites]
It kind of sounds like you stalked down there one night, pissed off, and gave them the "can you please have some consideration that small kids live here?" line. Your annoyance is justified, but the execution was off. (As a childless person I always get a little annoyed by the "uhhhh excuse me but I have kids so give me better treatment" thing). You simply have to try again and be the bigger person. Try to get to know them a little, maybe get into the habit of saying "hey how's it going?" when you see them. Erase all the bad vibes and "fuck you, we come with the building" bullshit that came before and start over in a friendly and neighborly way. Then you can maybe negotiate with them. This is the only way you will be able to fix this.
posted by cakelite at 2:11 PM on December 6, 2021 [86 favorites]
Sorry but the woman is correct: She DOES come with the house. These folks were here first and your desire, although on one hand completely understandable, is on the other akin to moving in next to the airport and complaining about the noise. Difference being the "airplanes" are human beings, likely of a less privileged social class, who have an established pattern of hanging out and socializing in this location, and your desires, while again reasonable on one level, would, on another, leave this group without their established social behaviors and supports. Which they are likely to resent especially considering how hard it is for most people to buy a house.
posted by latkes at 2:13 PM on December 6, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by latkes at 2:13 PM on December 6, 2021 [22 favorites]
Any chance you plan on doing any exterior renovation on your new purchase? Maybe do that before anything else so you can get those green wooden construction walls up. Have those up for 6 months or a year, and they'll eventually move on probably.
Otherwise, just try to play the long game and get on their good side.
posted by greta simone at 2:13 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Otherwise, just try to play the long game and get on their good side.
posted by greta simone at 2:13 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
You can lock your gate - but the sidewalk is not "yours".
posted by latkes at 2:21 PM on December 6, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by latkes at 2:21 PM on December 6, 2021 [18 favorites]
play crying baby sound for music
posted by KayQuestions at 2:23 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by KayQuestions at 2:23 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
I’d try locking the gate and seeing what could be done to address things from inside - white noise machines, better insulation or windows or curtains? - before changing the low wall. Someday you or your kids or a tired or disabled person might want to take a quick rest on that wall and it would be nice to leave that as an option if you can.
There is or should be some room here for you to both make peace with the fact that you moved into an existing neighborhood with existing noise that you will have to live with, and to keep that activity out on the sidewalk rather than your actual front stoop.
posted by Stacey at 2:24 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
There is or should be some room here for you to both make peace with the fact that you moved into an existing neighborhood with existing noise that you will have to live with, and to keep that activity out on the sidewalk rather than your actual front stoop.
posted by Stacey at 2:24 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Yeah, notice how they're not doing it to any other house on the block? That's a hint that it's not broadly accepted neighborhood behavior to sit uninvited on someone else's stoop (!) for hours late at night. Their own building probably doesn't let them do it. They might have been friends with the prior owners, but if they weren't, they wouldn't have been there, either.
People drinking or smoking weed on the public sidewalk you really can't do much about, though. That's not your property. I agree you need to go in friendly and then ask nicely for them to stay off the stoop. In the end, though, if they keep treating your yard and stoop as the late-night spot, you may have to change your railing. That's a bummer, but neighborliness requires mutual accommodation of legitimate needs.
(Sometimes the urban-neighborhood-living advice on Mefi comes from folks who don't actually live in these situations and are applying the correct criticisms of big corps being hostile to the homeless and gentrifiers demanding wholesale revisions to neighborhood atmosphere for their comfort to people who are just looking for the same consideration they'd offer their neighbors in meeting basic living requirements.)
posted by praemunire at 2:26 PM on December 6, 2021 [92 favorites]
People drinking or smoking weed on the public sidewalk you really can't do much about, though. That's not your property. I agree you need to go in friendly and then ask nicely for them to stay off the stoop. In the end, though, if they keep treating your yard and stoop as the late-night spot, you may have to change your railing. That's a bummer, but neighborliness requires mutual accommodation of legitimate needs.
(Sometimes the urban-neighborhood-living advice on Mefi comes from folks who don't actually live in these situations and are applying the correct criticisms of big corps being hostile to the homeless and gentrifiers demanding wholesale revisions to neighborhood atmosphere for their comfort to people who are just looking for the same consideration they'd offer their neighbors in meeting basic living requirements.)
posted by praemunire at 2:26 PM on December 6, 2021 [92 favorites]
Response by poster: cakelite, I've been trying. I don't even ask anyone to leave, just to keep the music and voices down after 11pm. I've come down dozens of times to hang out and talk to people. I didn't start with "you're keeping my kids awake," I started with "Hey guys, I have to be up for work in five hours, could you give us a break please? My bedroom is literally eight feet away from where you're standing."
They not only don't care, they were laughing. Grown men in their 40s were bragging that they drove the previous homeowners and the tenants that came before them to move out on account of the noise.
latkes, I don't know how to convince you that even people who live in big cities have a basic right to some minimum peace and quiet. I'm not expecting (nor could I ever get) total silence, and if that's what I wanted I'd move to the woods. That's not what I'm asking for.
posted by 1adam12 at 2:26 PM on December 6, 2021 [87 favorites]
They not only don't care, they were laughing. Grown men in their 40s were bragging that they drove the previous homeowners and the tenants that came before them to move out on account of the noise.
latkes, I don't know how to convince you that even people who live in big cities have a basic right to some minimum peace and quiet. I'm not expecting (nor could I ever get) total silence, and if that's what I wanted I'd move to the woods. That's not what I'm asking for.
posted by 1adam12 at 2:26 PM on December 6, 2021 [87 favorites]
I think the five senses are getting very good representation here so let me add one more:
Stench. And a fan to keep it from blowing in your windows.
I'll leave the particulars of stench to your discretion, but one nice thing about stench if you do it right:
plausible deniability
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:27 PM on December 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
Stench. And a fan to keep it from blowing in your windows.
I'll leave the particulars of stench to your discretion, but one nice thing about stench if you do it right:
plausible deniability
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:27 PM on December 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: I don't want to spray people with water, and I don't want to play even more music that'll disturb my other neighbors. I feel like I'm not solving any problems by creating an even bigger ruckus than what's already there.
posted by 1adam12 at 2:28 PM on December 6, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 2:28 PM on December 6, 2021 [21 favorites]
If the sound is the worst of the problem: can you eliminate the source of electricity they are using to power the speakers?
Sometimes stuff just gets broken.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:32 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Sometimes stuff just gets broken.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:32 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
If you got a taller wrought iron fence and a locking gate I wonder if they would try to be even louder from the sidewalk, but it's possible it would help. Can you rearrange your interior so you sleep at the back of the building?
posted by pinochiette at 2:33 PM on December 6, 2021
posted by pinochiette at 2:33 PM on December 6, 2021
I'd replace the low wall. Yeah, they'll hate you for it but they're not going to sit on the street to do it after you take their seats/drink rests away. New fence, locked gate.
Grown men in their 40s were bragging that they drove the previous homeowners and the tenants that came before them to move out on account of the noise.
These aren't people you can negotiate with or that you want to battle. Just make the area unfriendly for loitering and be done with them.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:34 PM on December 6, 2021 [89 favorites]
Grown men in their 40s were bragging that they drove the previous homeowners and the tenants that came before them to move out on account of the noise.
These aren't people you can negotiate with or that you want to battle. Just make the area unfriendly for loitering and be done with them.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:34 PM on December 6, 2021 [89 favorites]
I agree with Cakelite, you're going to have to take the Ted Lasso approach here and you're gonna have to win these folks over before they will actually listen to you when you ask them politely to do stuff.
I've come down dozens of times to hang out and talk to people. I didn't start with "you're keeping my kids awake," I started with "Hey guys, I have to be up for work in five hours, could you give us a break please
I can't tell from your post here if you've tried talking to them in any capacity beyond "Person Who Wants Them To Do Stuff That They Don't Want To" but keep in mind that if these are your only interactions with them then off the bat none of this is going to go well. And I agree that all of the advice about spraying water or counter-blasting your own music is just stupid and unnecessarily escalating.
posted by windbox at 2:38 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've come down dozens of times to hang out and talk to people. I didn't start with "you're keeping my kids awake," I started with "Hey guys, I have to be up for work in five hours, could you give us a break please
I can't tell from your post here if you've tried talking to them in any capacity beyond "Person Who Wants Them To Do Stuff That They Don't Want To" but keep in mind that if these are your only interactions with them then off the bat none of this is going to go well. And I agree that all of the advice about spraying water or counter-blasting your own music is just stupid and unnecessarily escalating.
posted by windbox at 2:38 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: windbox the same people keeping me awake come by my house to hit me up for free legal advice, which I give, gladly, because these are my neighbors. There doesn't appear to be any consistency or pattern. They're not mad at me, I just plain don't exist as an entity.
posted by 1adam12 at 2:41 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 2:41 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: A Terrible Llama they are bluetooth speakers now that can run for 14 hours off of a single battery charge. I don't know how to disrupt that without violating the laws of physics.
posted by 1adam12 at 2:43 PM on December 6, 2021
posted by 1adam12 at 2:43 PM on December 6, 2021
Best answer: Following up on my comment above: If, in the end, the problem is that terrible people who think it's hilarious to make you miserable like hanging out in front of your house because it's a good place to sit, make it not a good place to sit. Replace the low wall with a wrought iron fence. Plant fruit trees or bushes on the inside that will drop shitty, annoying fruit on the ground they won't want to sit on or stand in.
That's as much as you get to do though. The Ted Lasso-ing them into being considerate buds stuff is naïve fantasy. And the retaliatory stuff is going to get your ass kicked. You can make it not as fun a place to be and hope human nature takes care of the rest.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:45 PM on December 6, 2021 [72 favorites]
That's as much as you get to do though. The Ted Lasso-ing them into being considerate buds stuff is naïve fantasy. And the retaliatory stuff is going to get your ass kicked. You can make it not as fun a place to be and hope human nature takes care of the rest.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:45 PM on December 6, 2021 [72 favorites]
Response by poster: DirtyOldTown the shittiest fruit tree I can think of that grows in NYC is a ginkgo tree. I'll have to think about that, they make a royal mess and everyone who walks past will get ginkgo nut crud stuck to their shoes. Yuck.
posted by 1adam12 at 2:47 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 2:47 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
the same people keeping me awake come by my house to hit me up for free legal advice
Can you barter with them? Free legal advice in exchange for leaving your stoop/sidewalk alone?
posted by TurnKey at 2:48 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Can you barter with them? Free legal advice in exchange for leaving your stoop/sidewalk alone?
posted by TurnKey at 2:48 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: TurnKey, it's a nice thought, and I've tried. The general offer goes unaccepted, but the individual folks who need help still turn up.
posted by 1adam12 at 2:49 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 2:49 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
One last thought on the "make the spot not comfortable" plan. Never ever admit, let alone say, that is what you are doing. You just like wrought iron fences and gingko trees. That's all there is to it. They don't think of you as an entity, so don't make yourself one.
(As for the intentionally obnoxious tree, keep in mind you can rip it out six months later when they've settled in to whatever their new post-your front stoop routine is.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:55 PM on December 6, 2021 [20 favorites]
(As for the intentionally obnoxious tree, keep in mind you can rip it out six months later when they've settled in to whatever their new post-your front stoop routine is.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:55 PM on December 6, 2021 [20 favorites]
What time do they start sitting out on the stoop? What if you were already out there with a bunch of your friends/kids/dogs etc? If theres no room for them, maybe they'll move on?
Do you have a dog? a nice loud barky dog that will bark at them if they loiter near your front door? i would move away immediately if a loud dog was in in my face.
posted by silverstatue at 2:56 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Do you have a dog? a nice loud barky dog that will bark at them if they loiter near your front door? i would move away immediately if a loud dog was in in my face.
posted by silverstatue at 2:56 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
the stink idea from llama is a good one. also brighter motion detecting lights in the stoop might help too
posted by wowenthusiast at 3:09 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by wowenthusiast at 3:09 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Riffing on the noxious/unfriendly plantings, instead of a ginkgo (and I don't even know if you can buy a female ginkgo anymore from a nursery - the females drop the stinky ginkgo berries) what about something prickly, like a row of hollies? They have the advantage of looking gorgeous and providing holiday greenery. Other thorny plants arranged closely together and impossible to easily avoid would work. And the ginkgoes are only stinky seasonally.
posted by citygirl at 3:12 PM on December 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by citygirl at 3:12 PM on December 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
is on the other akin to moving in next to the airport and complaining about the noise
Plenty of residential areas near airports require or subsidize soundproofing of new or existing homes. There is a reasonable expectation that people will be able to get adequate sleep and peace in their home. When this expectation isn’t present it is usually rightfully viewed as an injustice.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:21 PM on December 6, 2021 [23 favorites]
Plenty of residential areas near airports require or subsidize soundproofing of new or existing homes. There is a reasonable expectation that people will be able to get adequate sleep and peace in their home. When this expectation isn’t present it is usually rightfully viewed as an injustice.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:21 PM on December 6, 2021 [23 favorites]
To be clear, I'm not trying to claim you don't have a right to the city. All of us who live in the city (including me) have a right to the city. But since you asked advice, I'm sharing my advice that you can control what happens inside your fence only. And your behaviors impact your neighbors (who were here first and are certain to have less money than you if they live in an apartment while you are a homeowner) just as the reverse is true.
You said, "the same people keeping me awake come by my house to hit me up for free legal advice". Are you saying the specific same individual makes loud noise and sits on your front stoop without your permission as asks your legal advice? If so, seems like a good opportunity to speak directly to the person: "I would love to help but I want to be treated with respect as a neighbor. I need you to not sit on my stoop and remember my baby is sleeping right upstairs. You up for that? IF so, here's your legal advice..."
posted by latkes at 3:22 PM on December 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
You said, "the same people keeping me awake come by my house to hit me up for free legal advice". Are you saying the specific same individual makes loud noise and sits on your front stoop without your permission as asks your legal advice? If so, seems like a good opportunity to speak directly to the person: "I would love to help but I want to be treated with respect as a neighbor. I need you to not sit on my stoop and remember my baby is sleeping right upstairs. You up for that? IF so, here's your legal advice..."
posted by latkes at 3:22 PM on December 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
Have you talked with neighbors to find out their knowledge on the history and especially know why the people don't go to their sidewalks?
If they don't have another place to go, can you help create or get them access to a new place? It may cost you... but it looks like you're facing a money spend anyway.
posted by rockyraccoon at 3:33 PM on December 6, 2021 [12 favorites]
If they don't have another place to go, can you help create or get them access to a new place? It may cost you... but it looks like you're facing a money spend anyway.
posted by rockyraccoon at 3:33 PM on December 6, 2021 [12 favorites]
As someone who bought a house next to an apartment complex over a decade ago, I have to agree with praemunire and DirtyOldTown. You can't folksy-charm your way into these people's good graces, and you don't owe it to them to be a martyr/pro-bono counsel/event-planner just because you have a mortgage and a kid.
I do want to point up the above suggestion to play white noise inside, for your own well-being. There are 10-hour videos on YouTube you can stream overnight; depending on your acoustics they can cover a multitude of (other people's) sins, or at least take the edge off.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this.
I'd encourage anyone who's concerned with the plight of these middle-aged partiers to consider that unhoused people in the area have limited means of retreat when housed people (yes, even renters) go out of their way to noise-pollute an outdoor space. My block is mainly rental houses; one guy has been known to use loud music as a way to harass the homeless off his lawn...at 2 a.m. As far as I'm concerned, he can take his middle-class persecution complex and his treasured copy of Frampton Comes Alive! and stuff them both.
posted by armeowda at 3:59 PM on December 6, 2021 [26 favorites]
I do want to point up the above suggestion to play white noise inside, for your own well-being. There are 10-hour videos on YouTube you can stream overnight; depending on your acoustics they can cover a multitude of (other people's) sins, or at least take the edge off.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this.
I'd encourage anyone who's concerned with the plight of these middle-aged partiers to consider that unhoused people in the area have limited means of retreat when housed people (yes, even renters) go out of their way to noise-pollute an outdoor space. My block is mainly rental houses; one guy has been known to use loud music as a way to harass the homeless off his lawn...at 2 a.m. As far as I'm concerned, he can take his middle-class persecution complex and his treasured copy of Frampton Comes Alive! and stuff them both.
posted by armeowda at 3:59 PM on December 6, 2021 [26 favorites]
the neighbors think it's funny that we want to be able to sleep
I have a slightly hard time believing this to be true of all your neighbors, unless you live on a block where everyone happens to be big partiers who work the night shift. Like, really, there's not a single other adult on your block that has to get up early for work, or who has a small kid who is hard to put to bed? My suspicion is if you can't find a single neighbor who is able to emphasize with your very reasonable desire to not have very loud music directly outside your house in the wee wee hours, you aren't looking hard enough. Besides whatever modifications you might do to your front yard, I'd also make a point of going to all the neighborhood meetings and events - I bet you'll be able to find someone who sympathizes with you.
posted by coffeecat at 4:25 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I have a slightly hard time believing this to be true of all your neighbors, unless you live on a block where everyone happens to be big partiers who work the night shift. Like, really, there's not a single other adult on your block that has to get up early for work, or who has a small kid who is hard to put to bed? My suspicion is if you can't find a single neighbor who is able to emphasize with your very reasonable desire to not have very loud music directly outside your house in the wee wee hours, you aren't looking hard enough. Besides whatever modifications you might do to your front yard, I'd also make a point of going to all the neighborhood meetings and events - I bet you'll be able to find someone who sympathizes with you.
posted by coffeecat at 4:25 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I live in Chicago. I am a woman who has lived alone in Chicago for over a decade, for a long time as a renter and for a year and a half as a homeowner. I have had to have MANY interactions with neighbors to exert my right to peace and comfort and safety. If you let people erode your rights to your own enjoyment of your space, they will take everything from you. You cannot be nice about this.
And personally? Being passive aggressive with landscaping or sound/smell(the heck?) sounds like a lot of fucking work and expense. So I'd rather just go talk to them.
Here are some things I've learned:
- You talk at a time convenient to you. Going downstairs while they're partying and you're trying to sleep is a time convenient for them. Go knock on their door at 8am or whenever YOU feel ready to talk. YOU invade THEIR turf. (knock knock knock) HELLOOOO HI IT'S ME YOUR NEIGHBOR HELLLOOO I SEE A TV ON CAN YOU COME OUT AND TALK? etc. Be as annoying as you need to to engage them in a conversation.
- Tell them what they need to stop doing. Not hey can you be quieter or go party elsewhere. But: you can't come hang out on my stoop, you can't party in my yard. Go find another option. Feel free to point out that they don't sit on anyone else's stoop, so they have plenty of alternatives to yours.
- If they laugh at you or give you shit about it, tell them that's too fucking bad, because you're not going to have a conversation about it. If they say "the old owner" whatever, tough. You're not the old owner. Things have changed. They're welcome to go and complain about that bitch next door all they want, as long as they're not doing it here.
In short, be extremely firm, offer no options for compromise. These kind of interactions aren't easy or fun, and sure you may have a bout of panic shits from the adrenaline after you get back home, but they don't need to know about that. 90% of the time you can manage to accomplish just about anything by projecting the attitude that you are not to be fucked with.
p.s. Keep a baseball bat by your door. Just in case.
posted by phunniemee at 4:26 PM on December 6, 2021 [75 favorites]
And personally? Being passive aggressive with landscaping or sound/smell(the heck?) sounds like a lot of fucking work and expense. So I'd rather just go talk to them.
Here are some things I've learned:
- You talk at a time convenient to you. Going downstairs while they're partying and you're trying to sleep is a time convenient for them. Go knock on their door at 8am or whenever YOU feel ready to talk. YOU invade THEIR turf. (knock knock knock) HELLOOOO HI IT'S ME YOUR NEIGHBOR HELLLOOO I SEE A TV ON CAN YOU COME OUT AND TALK? etc. Be as annoying as you need to to engage them in a conversation.
- Tell them what they need to stop doing. Not hey can you be quieter or go party elsewhere. But: you can't come hang out on my stoop, you can't party in my yard. Go find another option. Feel free to point out that they don't sit on anyone else's stoop, so they have plenty of alternatives to yours.
- If they laugh at you or give you shit about it, tell them that's too fucking bad, because you're not going to have a conversation about it. If they say "the old owner" whatever, tough. You're not the old owner. Things have changed. They're welcome to go and complain about that bitch next door all they want, as long as they're not doing it here.
In short, be extremely firm, offer no options for compromise. These kind of interactions aren't easy or fun, and sure you may have a bout of panic shits from the adrenaline after you get back home, but they don't need to know about that. 90% of the time you can manage to accomplish just about anything by projecting the attitude that you are not to be fucked with.
p.s. Keep a baseball bat by your door. Just in case.
posted by phunniemee at 4:26 PM on December 6, 2021 [75 favorites]
Is there anything else about the built environment of your block that is why they’re loitering in front of your place instead of elsewhere? I used to live next to an empty lot/garden and we got more than our fair share of loiterers presumably because they thought they were bothering fewer people or were less visible. (We never did anything because they were very intermittent and more hilarious - teenagers filming TikTok videos by propping their phones on our stoop at 8 pm on a Friday - than obnoxious. But in your situation I definitely would do something, and I say this as someone who lived with bottle pickers making a racket every night at midnight for 5 years because I felt they really had no choice about the situation and I could go to sleep after they were done.)
I would definitely talk to the neighbors and see if they have any idea about the history of the situation.
posted by A Blue Moon at 4:36 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
I would definitely talk to the neighbors and see if they have any idea about the history of the situation.
posted by A Blue Moon at 4:36 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Also consider a front yard sprinkler that just slightly overshoots the fence.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:44 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:44 PM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Lock on the front gate, at the very least. What's the point of a gate without a lock anyway? Install a bright entryway light. Not a floodlight or anything ridiculous, but bright. Confront them directly, politely and firmly. I'm not much of a fan of the police, but after midnight on weekdays, call the cops and tell them there's people outside disturbing the peace. I also live in Chicago in a crowded neighborhood, but routine loud noise after midnights on weekdays? Calling in a complaint about that is NOT being Mr. Privileged Gentrifyer, it's being a normal citizen.
There's not much else you can do. Cities can be loud.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:55 PM on December 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
There's not much else you can do. Cities can be loud.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:55 PM on December 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
Besides whatever modifications you might do to your front yard, I'd also make a point of going to all the neighborhood meetings and events
This is just good advice generally. It sounds like you might be a lawyer? There's probably a local or semi-local tenants' rights or foreclosure prevention or social services advocacy association that could use your help.
posted by praemunire at 4:55 PM on December 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
This is just good advice generally. It sounds like you might be a lawyer? There's probably a local or semi-local tenants' rights or foreclosure prevention or social services advocacy association that could use your help.
posted by praemunire at 4:55 PM on December 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
Cacti will grow in New York. Maybe plant a nice, prickly cactus garden. And crowd your porch up with unsittable stuff. Tall drums or big bags of poky, fireproof, useless junk no one would want to steal. Ideally you want something that fills the space without being an eyesore. Be friendly to their faces but assume they are scummy and possibily dangerous people. They sound vile.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:03 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:03 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
1000% agree with phunniemee, down to the last line about the baseball bat. Padlock the front gate at night. If that fails, build a wall/fence that excludes them from your stoop and removes sitting areas.
posted by gnutron at 5:53 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by gnutron at 5:53 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
→
Can you get StopClimb anti-vandal paint in NY? They're not hanging anything on any surface painted with StopClimb. If it is legal, you typically need to post a warning sign or you can be sued if someone gets it on themselves.
It's nasty, oily sticky shit that basically never comes off. At least they no longer make the kind with dye in it that permanently stains skin.
posted by scruss at 6:02 PM on December 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
a wrought-iron fence that runs around our postage-stamp front yard to place drinks, hang speakers, bags, and coats, and sit
Can you get StopClimb anti-vandal paint in NY? They're not hanging anything on any surface painted with StopClimb. If it is legal, you typically need to post a warning sign or you can be sued if someone gets it on themselves.
It's nasty, oily sticky shit that basically never comes off. At least they no longer make the kind with dye in it that permanently stains skin.
posted by scruss at 6:02 PM on December 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
How old are your kids? A first, quick step you can take is to gradually start leaving some toys out on the yard and on the stoop, to start strengthening the message that real life and a real family live here. Maybe some cheap boots or flip-flops on the stoop. Not enough on its own, but it might help lay the ground for later steps. Also you missed Halloween, but if you celebrate Christmas, is there any holiday decoration you could put up now that would assert your presence a little? The idea isn't really to be hostile, but to make it clear that they're in someone's space.
Can you put up a little free library in an inconvenient location on the fence?
Plant vines (maybe edible things, like tomatoes or squash) that can climb up the fence? (The timing isn't great for this, admittedly.) Or just plant things in the yard in general (ask at the nursery for plants that grow in the winter). Here again the idea would just be to make it clear that 'real people live here, you're on their property, and if also you trample their plants, you're doing tangible damage to them.'
You might definitely get retaliation, whether serious or petty. I generally hate cameras, but maybe they'd be a good idea in this case (though consider whether they'd invite retaliation themselves).
I find the baseball bat advice kind of weird and disturbing. For those who suggested it - what are you envisioning?
Finally, I don't think it's come up in this thread yet, but is there a cultural/ethnic/racial/economic gap between you and these neighbors? If so that would be an inevitable factor in all of these interactions and in the response to any steps you take. Also, it might be good if you could describe the socioeconomic and cultural character of the neighborhood a bit, and how you fit into it.
Do you have any friends in the neighborhood? Do lots of people know you by name? Do you have any friends or other relationships in common with these partiers? Do you know them and where they live? Do any of them have kids (or parents)?
posted by trig at 6:24 PM on December 6, 2021 [9 favorites]
Can you put up a little free library in an inconvenient location on the fence?
Plant vines (maybe edible things, like tomatoes or squash) that can climb up the fence? (The timing isn't great for this, admittedly.) Or just plant things in the yard in general (ask at the nursery for plants that grow in the winter). Here again the idea would just be to make it clear that 'real people live here, you're on their property, and if also you trample their plants, you're doing tangible damage to them.'
You might definitely get retaliation, whether serious or petty. I generally hate cameras, but maybe they'd be a good idea in this case (though consider whether they'd invite retaliation themselves).
I find the baseball bat advice kind of weird and disturbing. For those who suggested it - what are you envisioning?
Finally, I don't think it's come up in this thread yet, but is there a cultural/ethnic/racial/economic gap between you and these neighbors? If so that would be an inevitable factor in all of these interactions and in the response to any steps you take. Also, it might be good if you could describe the socioeconomic and cultural character of the neighborhood a bit, and how you fit into it.
Do you have any friends in the neighborhood? Do lots of people know you by name? Do you have any friends or other relationships in common with these partiers? Do you know them and where they live? Do any of them have kids (or parents)?
posted by trig at 6:24 PM on December 6, 2021 [9 favorites]
You write, " I don't want to play even more music that'll disturb my other neighbors." That's understandable. But if you use this tactic, think of it as only temporary. Once they find a new place to hang out, you can cut the music.
posted by Leontine at 6:35 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Leontine at 6:35 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
I find the baseball bat advice kind of weird and disturbing. For those who suggested it - what are you envisioning?
In the extremely vanishingly unlikely event that someone retaliates violently by forcing their way into your home, you have a weapon that appears threatening and is not a gun. I have never had to do this.
In the realm of possible but still unlikely events that someone angrily comes to your door and acts argumentive or refuses to leave, you can casually tip the handle just into sight in a way that says hi I am a person who is prepared to defend herself should the need arise, you should leave. I have done this exactly one time.
In the daily lived existence of being a person out in the world, it's a totem of I will choose to stand up for myself every time.
Remember, these folks aren't just being loud, or being socioeconomically disadvantaged near OP, they are going onto their property and SITTING ON THE STEPS OF THEIR HOME. This behavior is already threatening!!! Loud is part of living in a city. Being near drug use is part of living in a city. Sharing close quarters with people with different incomes and cultural backgrounds is part of living in a city. But my white guilt does not extend far enough that you can erode my boundaries and impinge on my security.
posted by phunniemee at 6:36 PM on December 6, 2021 [63 favorites]
In the extremely vanishingly unlikely event that someone retaliates violently by forcing their way into your home, you have a weapon that appears threatening and is not a gun. I have never had to do this.
In the realm of possible but still unlikely events that someone angrily comes to your door and acts argumentive or refuses to leave, you can casually tip the handle just into sight in a way that says hi I am a person who is prepared to defend herself should the need arise, you should leave. I have done this exactly one time.
In the daily lived existence of being a person out in the world, it's a totem of I will choose to stand up for myself every time.
Remember, these folks aren't just being loud, or being socioeconomically disadvantaged near OP, they are going onto their property and SITTING ON THE STEPS OF THEIR HOME. This behavior is already threatening!!! Loud is part of living in a city. Being near drug use is part of living in a city. Sharing close quarters with people with different incomes and cultural backgrounds is part of living in a city. But my white guilt does not extend far enough that you can erode my boundaries and impinge on my security.
posted by phunniemee at 6:36 PM on December 6, 2021 [63 favorites]
(Not sure if the last paragraph was aimed at the last part of my comment, but my point wasn't that the OP should give everyone a pass. My point was that socioeconomic dynamics can inevitably affect how anything OP does is perceived, and (a) they should take that into account when deciding on their approach, and (b) giving more info on that might help elicit more effective suggestions here.)
In the realm of possible but still unlikely events that someone angrily comes to your door and acts argumentive or refuses to leave, you can casually tip the handle just into sight in a way that says hi I am a person who is prepared to defend herself should the need arise, you should leave.
I personally would worry about that increasing the possibility of later escalation, but circumstances vary.
posted by trig at 7:20 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
In the realm of possible but still unlikely events that someone angrily comes to your door and acts argumentive or refuses to leave, you can casually tip the handle just into sight in a way that says hi I am a person who is prepared to defend herself should the need arise, you should leave.
I personally would worry about that increasing the possibility of later escalation, but circumstances vary.
posted by trig at 7:20 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
These folks were here first and your desire, although on one hand completely understandable, is on the other akin to moving in next to the airport and complaining about the noise.
I don’t think this is a particularly apt comparison. When you move next to the airport, you know about the planes before you plunk down your money and buy the house. Nobody’s going to warn you about asshole neighbors before you write the check.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:27 PM on December 6, 2021 [24 favorites]
I don’t think this is a particularly apt comparison. When you move next to the airport, you know about the planes before you plunk down your money and buy the house. Nobody’s going to warn you about asshole neighbors before you write the check.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:27 PM on December 6, 2021 [24 favorites]
I feel that a lot of folks offering advice here have not experienced actually hostile neighbors. Until you've had your tires slashed for parking in front of your own apt, or someone throws litter in your yard while staring you down, or had your fence knocked over repeatedly, it's easy to imagine that just asking nicely can solve all problems. I don't have a solution but want to offer support against the folks who seem to think you just haven't been nice enough.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 7:37 PM on December 6, 2021 [82 favorites]
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 7:37 PM on December 6, 2021 [82 favorites]
I would also point out that humans are not infrastructure, or planes, or furniture that the previous tenant left behind.
posted by phunniemee at 7:38 PM on December 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 7:38 PM on December 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
the same people keeping me awake come by my house to hit me up for free legal advice, which I give, gladly, because these are my neighbors
If these are literally the same people, tell them you can't give them free legal advice until they stop partying in front of your house.
Get a better fence, gate, and lock.
Sleep in the back of your house. You own a house. In Brooklyn. Their behavior coming onto your stoop is appalling, but you own a house. In Brooklyn. Most people in NYC can't move to the back of their house or a higher floor to get away from noise. You have an entire house. Move away from the noise.
posted by Mavri at 7:38 PM on December 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
If these are literally the same people, tell them you can't give them free legal advice until they stop partying in front of your house.
Get a better fence, gate, and lock.
Sleep in the back of your house. You own a house. In Brooklyn. Their behavior coming onto your stoop is appalling, but you own a house. In Brooklyn. Most people in NYC can't move to the back of their house or a higher floor to get away from noise. You have an entire house. Move away from the noise.
posted by Mavri at 7:38 PM on December 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
Is the yard/gate/stoop property you own, or is it part of a shared communal area? If so, they are trespassing whenever they are on your stoop. The "it was their space first" argument goes out the window when it comes to spaces that you own. It's basic decency to stay off of others' property, especially if you have told them they are not welcome. They are trespassing and they need to stop. I realize that it isn't wise to escalate the situation, but at the same time you do not have to cede your rights because they feel entitled to a space that you own.
The sidewalk is a different story. Get a fence that has no horizontal surface or hooks for anything to hang on, and a gate that you can padlock each night. If they get excessively loud past midnight, make a call to the police and maybe they will do something about it. This isn't about class warfare - it's basic human decency to not disturb other people purposefully, and they are. It's one thing to chill outside at night at a normal volume - what they are doing is disturbing the peace.
Don't humor this bullshit; you don't have to get hostile but you certainly shouldn't have to beg and plead and bribe them to act like decent fucking humans. You don't owe them a place to sit, or place their drinks, or anything like that. Don't let them bully you.
posted by _DB_ at 7:44 PM on December 6, 2021 [19 favorites]
The sidewalk is a different story. Get a fence that has no horizontal surface or hooks for anything to hang on, and a gate that you can padlock each night. If they get excessively loud past midnight, make a call to the police and maybe they will do something about it. This isn't about class warfare - it's basic human decency to not disturb other people purposefully, and they are. It's one thing to chill outside at night at a normal volume - what they are doing is disturbing the peace.
Don't humor this bullshit; you don't have to get hostile but you certainly shouldn't have to beg and plead and bribe them to act like decent fucking humans. You don't owe them a place to sit, or place their drinks, or anything like that. Don't let them bully you.
posted by _DB_ at 7:44 PM on December 6, 2021 [19 favorites]
What kind of light? Imagine really bright LED floodlights with a narrow aperture, something that would cast harsh shadows, and cause all parties outside to squint and not enjoy loitering.
posted by nickggully at 7:46 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by nickggully at 7:46 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I agree. And the angle of the light could be key. Cheap to try. And smell is a great idea too. These would dissuade me.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:48 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:48 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
These are not nice people. They do not care about you or your children. Do not give them free legal advice. Lock your gate, get a ring doorbell, a sprinkler system, and an extremely bright light system that goes on with a motion detector. Don't come down and socialize with them. Don't ask them to be less noisy. Don't ask them to leave your property or the sidewalk in front of your property. Just make your property not a good place to socialize after dark. They will eventually go someplace else and bother someone else. In the meantime, watch out for vandalism and get good homeowner's insurance.
posted by KayQuestions at 7:53 PM on December 6, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by KayQuestions at 7:53 PM on December 6, 2021 [15 favorites]
They have a hangout spot they like, and feel no incentive to relocate. Is there a hangout spot at least as good where they could go? How might they be encouraged to hang out elsewhere? Winter may reduce or eliminate gathering outdoors, be prepared to make any changes so that they don't re-start congregating next spring.
posted by theora55 at 7:55 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 7:55 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
I would strongly recommend some nice spiky fast growing vines. Talking to these people hasn’t worked and they’ve made it clear that they get a kick out of driving away the property owners so appealing to their better nature also won’t work. I’d also stop giving them legal advice and explain why when they’re going out of their way to annoy you. Tell them that being a good neighbour goes both ways. But in the meantime, spiky plants. Make it a place they definitely won’t want to loiter in.
posted by Jubey at 7:56 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 7:56 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Another thing: Start documenting everything with dates and times, interactions, etc.
In Chicago, the city is divided into Wards, each Ward has an Alderperson. NYC must have some similar setup. Call the Alderperson's office. Or better yet, go to the office. Ask to speak to someone who can make a report. Bring proof of your address and your driver's license or passport. Explain the situation and show the documentation. Have them make a copy. Ask for their advice. Ask them to contact the police about this. Tell them you are concerned about the noise and the trespassing only, and that you have made genuine effort to talk to these people about the problem
I used to volunteer at my Alderman's office. They take this stuff seriously and can be your advocate/liaison with the cops. Yes, yes... the police. You can ask the equivalent of the Alderperson's office to contact the cops about this. They personally know the cops in the area and this will be better than just calling the police station. Make regular reports to the Alderperson's office and continue documenting this. Be polite with the people in this office. Follow thieir recommendations and continue to document future hassles.
Go to your Ward's meetings in person and bring this issue up. Continue contacting the Alderperson's office as this crap continues, with exact documentation. Don't call them every day, but consider contacting them once a week if this continues to be as bad as you say here. Be as professional and as firm as you can be when you make these reports.
Of course this only works as good as the elected representative you have. All the more reason to get involved with local politics. Attend community police meetings regularly and bring up this issue. Good luck.
posted by SoberHighland at 8:07 PM on December 6, 2021 [16 favorites]
In Chicago, the city is divided into Wards, each Ward has an Alderperson. NYC must have some similar setup. Call the Alderperson's office. Or better yet, go to the office. Ask to speak to someone who can make a report. Bring proof of your address and your driver's license or passport. Explain the situation and show the documentation. Have them make a copy. Ask for their advice. Ask them to contact the police about this. Tell them you are concerned about the noise and the trespassing only, and that you have made genuine effort to talk to these people about the problem
I used to volunteer at my Alderman's office. They take this stuff seriously and can be your advocate/liaison with the cops. Yes, yes... the police. You can ask the equivalent of the Alderperson's office to contact the cops about this. They personally know the cops in the area and this will be better than just calling the police station. Make regular reports to the Alderperson's office and continue documenting this. Be polite with the people in this office. Follow thieir recommendations and continue to document future hassles.
Go to your Ward's meetings in person and bring this issue up. Continue contacting the Alderperson's office as this crap continues, with exact documentation. Don't call them every day, but consider contacting them once a week if this continues to be as bad as you say here. Be as professional and as firm as you can be when you make these reports.
Of course this only works as good as the elected representative you have. All the more reason to get involved with local politics. Attend community police meetings regularly and bring up this issue. Good luck.
posted by SoberHighland at 8:07 PM on December 6, 2021 [16 favorites]
If they get excessively loud past midnight, make a call to the police and maybe they will do something about it.
Please don't call the police. The NYPD is currently such that to call the police on people of color for anything other than actual physical violence (or very credible threats thereof) is to incur an unacceptably high risk of bringing about an extrajudicial execution. It sucks that what ought to be a reasonable means of enforcing city ordinances is foreclosed to us, but that's where we are.
posted by praemunire at 8:13 PM on December 6, 2021 [23 favorites]
Please don't call the police. The NYPD is currently such that to call the police on people of color for anything other than actual physical violence (or very credible threats thereof) is to incur an unacceptably high risk of bringing about an extrajudicial execution. It sucks that what ought to be a reasonable means of enforcing city ordinances is foreclosed to us, but that's where we are.
posted by praemunire at 8:13 PM on December 6, 2021 [23 favorites]
I have no suggestions for short term solutions, except get a lock for your gate so they can't sit on your stoop anymore (!?). Consider motion detector lights that are so bright they're uncomfortable to look at?
In the long term, I would plan to tear down the low wall and iron fence and replace it with a privacy fence. Commission a mural for the public facing side. It sounds like it's currently a convenient spot for neighbors to sit on the low wall and hang their stuff on the fence. Make it unpleasant or impossible for them to sit there anymore.
These comments implying that you shouldn't be allowed to be upset because you are privileged enough to own property in NYC are weird. And assuming that the people who live in apartment buildings are not property owners and have less money that OP is weird too. There's absolutely no way to determine if they own their apartment or not.
posted by pumpkinlatte at 8:29 PM on December 6, 2021 [34 favorites]
In the long term, I would plan to tear down the low wall and iron fence and replace it with a privacy fence. Commission a mural for the public facing side. It sounds like it's currently a convenient spot for neighbors to sit on the low wall and hang their stuff on the fence. Make it unpleasant or impossible for them to sit there anymore.
These comments implying that you shouldn't be allowed to be upset because you are privileged enough to own property in NYC are weird. And assuming that the people who live in apartment buildings are not property owners and have less money that OP is weird too. There's absolutely no way to determine if they own their apartment or not.
posted by pumpkinlatte at 8:29 PM on December 6, 2021 [34 favorites]
FWIW, OP never commented on the race/socioeconomic class/etc of the people doing this - can we agree not to make assumptions based on the description of the events and situation?
posted by _DB_ at 8:44 PM on December 6, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by _DB_ at 8:44 PM on December 6, 2021 [17 favorites]
I noticed that in my neighborhood houses that don't want to be bothered with loud or criminal activity build TALL fences and turn their houses into little fortresses. This is not gentrifiers doing it (the gentrifiers tend to pull the fences down), but the longer term residents who are lower income and people of color who have been here for 30+ years. I think it gave them peace, and it will probably do the same for you. Just make sure that you get enough paint to repaint the fence, because well, not everyone likes a tall fence.
posted by Toddles at 9:43 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 9:43 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
You’ve been nice enough and you’ve put up with bullshit including them telling you directly about running your predecessor out of the neighbourhood.
They don’t do it to your neighbour so something about this is personal.
Put up a tall, thick, flat/unscalable, masonry fence with a tall rail metal gate with a lock. Put cameras up where they can’t be destroyed.
I was the target of similar harassment in front of my house, and a fence made some of the social fuckery dissipate - noise, guys pissing into my garden, people fucking in my garden, using my garden hose to have drunk water fights, throwing their cigarette butts into my ute bed, late night soccer matches with balls kicked at my windows, etc etc All of this because my neighbours invited their friends to bring kegs and doof-doof blares from midnight til dawn at least every Sunday and Monday night and sometimes more often.
I also called cops several times, if I got pissed off enough with the use of my garden as a urinal. Where you are, and the propensity of US cops to kill people, I dunno if that’s something you can do. I do think it was the final thing that made them change their social life - cops doing drive bys on the regular. I think in your case, maybe they can sit in the street but it’s basic trespassing for them to enter your yard.
The wall addressed my privacy and noise and unwanted bodily emanations, but walls will get graffitied. Roll with the graffiti.
Your fence builder will have to mind their tools, and work quickly, and you might have to hire a security firm for a night or two til the mortar or render sets.
posted by honey-barbara at 10:33 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
They don’t do it to your neighbour so something about this is personal.
Put up a tall, thick, flat/unscalable, masonry fence with a tall rail metal gate with a lock. Put cameras up where they can’t be destroyed.
I was the target of similar harassment in front of my house, and a fence made some of the social fuckery dissipate - noise, guys pissing into my garden, people fucking in my garden, using my garden hose to have drunk water fights, throwing their cigarette butts into my ute bed, late night soccer matches with balls kicked at my windows, etc etc All of this because my neighbours invited their friends to bring kegs and doof-doof blares from midnight til dawn at least every Sunday and Monday night and sometimes more often.
I also called cops several times, if I got pissed off enough with the use of my garden as a urinal. Where you are, and the propensity of US cops to kill people, I dunno if that’s something you can do. I do think it was the final thing that made them change their social life - cops doing drive bys on the regular. I think in your case, maybe they can sit in the street but it’s basic trespassing for them to enter your yard.
The wall addressed my privacy and noise and unwanted bodily emanations, but walls will get graffitied. Roll with the graffiti.
Your fence builder will have to mind their tools, and work quickly, and you might have to hire a security firm for a night or two til the mortar or render sets.
posted by honey-barbara at 10:33 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
..maybe black out curtains, then next level mounted (or close) shop or film lights, with a sign stating you need the security lights due to a recent break in. Shop lights legitimately hurt if you are too close or glance in the wrong direction. Most people using them don't break near them, and unless someone has great makeup, they usually highlight every flaw on a person's face. I definitely wouldn't want to hang out and have conversations near them, and if they're mounted then lit for particular hours (LIGHTS - 11:45PM-6:45AM), they'll be credible and possibly as annoying as the people squatting your stoop.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:20 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:20 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
NYC understandably doesn’t want people turning their houses into fortresses, so ‘privacy fences’ are not a thing here. In residential neighborhoods the highest a street-facing fence or wall can be is 4 feet. In back yards they can be taller.
Long term, you could replace the existing wall/fence combo with a hedge so there’s nothing to sit on or lean against, but there’s really nothing to be done about people socializing on the sidewalk. The reason they’re doing this in front of your house in particular is because it’s the nearest outdoor space to their building, right? By all means, get to know all your neighbors better and involve yourself in local affairs, but don’t expect this will in any way influence the ones who like to hang out on the sidewalk. Do NOT get the NYPD involved.
Short term, I’d just focus on preventing people from opening the gate and sitting on your stoop. Even though a front gate will always be relatively easy to hop over, simply putting a lock on it will go a long way toward deterring people from entering your yard. Consider putting planters on the stoop so there’s only a narrow path up the steps to your door and not much room for sitting. A motion-sensing light over your door isn’t a bad idea, but make sure the bulb is well shielded and not visible to any of your neighbors. Set it so that it’ll only be activated by movement near the stoop.
I strongly advise against planting a ginkgo tree — it would potentially be a deterrent for only a few weeks out of the year and for those few weeks whatever additional sleep you may enjoy won’t be worth the misery of having a fruiting gingko tree nearby.
posted by theory at 12:00 AM on December 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
Long term, you could replace the existing wall/fence combo with a hedge so there’s nothing to sit on or lean against, but there’s really nothing to be done about people socializing on the sidewalk. The reason they’re doing this in front of your house in particular is because it’s the nearest outdoor space to their building, right? By all means, get to know all your neighbors better and involve yourself in local affairs, but don’t expect this will in any way influence the ones who like to hang out on the sidewalk. Do NOT get the NYPD involved.
Short term, I’d just focus on preventing people from opening the gate and sitting on your stoop. Even though a front gate will always be relatively easy to hop over, simply putting a lock on it will go a long way toward deterring people from entering your yard. Consider putting planters on the stoop so there’s only a narrow path up the steps to your door and not much room for sitting. A motion-sensing light over your door isn’t a bad idea, but make sure the bulb is well shielded and not visible to any of your neighbors. Set it so that it’ll only be activated by movement near the stoop.
I strongly advise against planting a ginkgo tree — it would potentially be a deterrent for only a few weeks out of the year and for those few weeks whatever additional sleep you may enjoy won’t be worth the misery of having a fruiting gingko tree nearby.
posted by theory at 12:00 AM on December 7, 2021 [7 favorites]
FWIW, OP never commented on the race/socioeconomic class/etc of the people doing this - can we agree not to make assumptions based on the description of the events and situation?
The OP has already given clues to the socioeconomic status of the people doing this. The OP is a lawyer who is able to own a house in Brooklyn - these people come from the neighboring apartment complex.
And it is impossible to take ethnicity, race, and class out of the equation. As a Latina who has had a small child and had to deal with noisy neighbors I am fucking aghast at some of these suggestions. AGHAST.
The way that you cut down noise - even against hostile, noisy neighbors - is to become a part of the community. This is not just by offering free legal advice.
Here is what I would do and have done in your situation before resorting to hostile architecture in a city already hostile to the poor.
First: if you haven't thrown a 'I'm in the neighborhood' party, I would absolutely do so. Buy a bunch of meat for grilling, buy a bunch of cheap beer. Host the party, at a decent hour - try, say, 5PM - 11PM - with music at an acceptable volume. Make it clear that the party is for everyone. Wave down neighbors you see and invite them to have a burger or a drink. Around 10PM, make it clear that with sadness, you'll have to be cutting it off soon - kids you know, if they don't get sleep it will be awful tomorrow. Then at 11PM, pull the music, start packing it all up. If there's extra food/drinks that conceivably wouldn't fit in a fridge, ask if anyone wants to take it with.
My suspicion is that you're in a gentrifying neighborhood, the previous owners of the house were gentrifying as well, and that's why that house is the party house rather than another closeby house where people may have lived for a long time, have community connections, etc. The way to defeat this is to become part of the community, not hold yourself aloof.
posted by corb at 12:49 AM on December 7, 2021 [24 favorites]
The OP has already given clues to the socioeconomic status of the people doing this. The OP is a lawyer who is able to own a house in Brooklyn - these people come from the neighboring apartment complex.
And it is impossible to take ethnicity, race, and class out of the equation. As a Latina who has had a small child and had to deal with noisy neighbors I am fucking aghast at some of these suggestions. AGHAST.
The way that you cut down noise - even against hostile, noisy neighbors - is to become a part of the community. This is not just by offering free legal advice.
Here is what I would do and have done in your situation before resorting to hostile architecture in a city already hostile to the poor.
First: if you haven't thrown a 'I'm in the neighborhood' party, I would absolutely do so. Buy a bunch of meat for grilling, buy a bunch of cheap beer. Host the party, at a decent hour - try, say, 5PM - 11PM - with music at an acceptable volume. Make it clear that the party is for everyone. Wave down neighbors you see and invite them to have a burger or a drink. Around 10PM, make it clear that with sadness, you'll have to be cutting it off soon - kids you know, if they don't get sleep it will be awful tomorrow. Then at 11PM, pull the music, start packing it all up. If there's extra food/drinks that conceivably wouldn't fit in a fridge, ask if anyone wants to take it with.
My suspicion is that you're in a gentrifying neighborhood, the previous owners of the house were gentrifying as well, and that's why that house is the party house rather than another closeby house where people may have lived for a long time, have community connections, etc. The way to defeat this is to become part of the community, not hold yourself aloof.
posted by corb at 12:49 AM on December 7, 2021 [24 favorites]
OP, I strongly suggest you take as many steps as you can to mitigate these issues for yourself within the boundaries of your property before you attempt a solution to actively confront or push these people away. As you have already realised, nothing you can do will persuade them to move on and you don't want to escalate things.
Before you do anything else, you should at least try:
- getting a big, secure, obvious lock for the gate and dressing up the stoop as theory suggested
- blackout curtains for bedrooms, which will cut down on both noise and light
- a white noise machine to help drown out the noise (I live in a terrace house with paper thin walls and tons of street noise from passing cards, neighbours directly outside, the kids in their bedroom next door playing on their PS4; even the cheapest possible white noise machine from Amazon cuts that down so I can sleep)
- possibly some kind of air purifier for your bedroom to mitigate the smell of weed or cigarette smoke, if it's coming through the window
If taking those steps doesn't work, then consider moving your bedroom to the back of the house. This is a step I had to take when I first moved in to my place and it make a lot of difference.
Getting involved with your community is a good idea in general, but don't do it just because you want emotional or material leverage over your neighbours. Throwing a block party just so you can make friends and then tell them to fuck off will be a pretty transparent ploy and might end up turning people against you if they realise what you're doing.
posted by fight or flight at 5:13 AM on December 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
Before you do anything else, you should at least try:
- getting a big, secure, obvious lock for the gate and dressing up the stoop as theory suggested
- blackout curtains for bedrooms, which will cut down on both noise and light
- a white noise machine to help drown out the noise (I live in a terrace house with paper thin walls and tons of street noise from passing cards, neighbours directly outside, the kids in their bedroom next door playing on their PS4; even the cheapest possible white noise machine from Amazon cuts that down so I can sleep)
- possibly some kind of air purifier for your bedroom to mitigate the smell of weed or cigarette smoke, if it's coming through the window
If taking those steps doesn't work, then consider moving your bedroom to the back of the house. This is a step I had to take when I first moved in to my place and it make a lot of difference.
Getting involved with your community is a good idea in general, but don't do it just because you want emotional or material leverage over your neighbours. Throwing a block party just so you can make friends and then tell them to fuck off will be a pretty transparent ploy and might end up turning people against you if they realise what you're doing.
posted by fight or flight at 5:13 AM on December 7, 2021 [12 favorites]
Bring cookies and a smile and ask them nicely.
posted by Hey, Zeus! at 7:33 AM on December 7, 2021
posted by Hey, Zeus! at 7:33 AM on December 7, 2021
All this discussion of whether or not to call the cops is kind of irrelevant, since OP already stated that the cops don’t care.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:37 AM on December 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:37 AM on December 7, 2021 [8 favorites]
One of the hardest things about being a sane adult is recognizing when we cannot control other people. For me that turns out to be most of the time. Your mileage may vary. I don’t know what you should do. When it comes to relationships, Captain Awkward often asks what a person would do if they knew the circumstances would continue exactly as they were for one year, or two years, or five years, etc.
I am very much a one day or one hour at a time person, because the alternative is basically insanity for me. So I would encourage you and your partner to consider what is in your control, how much time and energy you both have to invest in the worthy goal of becoming part of the community, if it is possible for you to move toward the back of the building to sleep, if you are willing to change other things, and how much this haunts you.
If this is eating you up inside, selling and moving is a healthy thing to consider. If nothing ever changes but you feel able to adapt and accept it, then staying may be the way to go. Perhaps changing the fence or locking the gate will make a difference. Before I decided to do anything else, I would refuse to help out with legal advice to anyone who was keeping me awake at night and I would knock on every door on both sides of the block to meet my new neighbors and to ask the ones who are not keeping me awake everything they know about the ones who are keeping me awake.
You are new. You don’t know the story about these folks. Somebody does know the story. Do everything you can to find that out before you take any permanent action that you may regret. You have every reason to be outraged and exhausted. But without having more information about the history of these folks (maybe they did drive out folks before you but maybe not), I don’t see how we strangers on the Internet can actually help you meet your goal effectively.
It’s possible that stench and lights and locks will do the trick. But if you want to become a part of the neighborhood anyway, go knock on doors. Go meet your good neighbors, the people who aren’t annoying, and ask them what they know. Maybe they’ll have the story.
Maybe if you explain your situation, they can offer good advice grounded in their own experience of the neighborhood. In my experience, leading with curiosity rather than anger or rage leads to better results. Especially since the good neighbors may be related to the people pissing you off. We just don’t know, so it’s up to you to find out what you can. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 8:32 AM on December 7, 2021 [17 favorites]
I am very much a one day or one hour at a time person, because the alternative is basically insanity for me. So I would encourage you and your partner to consider what is in your control, how much time and energy you both have to invest in the worthy goal of becoming part of the community, if it is possible for you to move toward the back of the building to sleep, if you are willing to change other things, and how much this haunts you.
If this is eating you up inside, selling and moving is a healthy thing to consider. If nothing ever changes but you feel able to adapt and accept it, then staying may be the way to go. Perhaps changing the fence or locking the gate will make a difference. Before I decided to do anything else, I would refuse to help out with legal advice to anyone who was keeping me awake at night and I would knock on every door on both sides of the block to meet my new neighbors and to ask the ones who are not keeping me awake everything they know about the ones who are keeping me awake.
You are new. You don’t know the story about these folks. Somebody does know the story. Do everything you can to find that out before you take any permanent action that you may regret. You have every reason to be outraged and exhausted. But without having more information about the history of these folks (maybe they did drive out folks before you but maybe not), I don’t see how we strangers on the Internet can actually help you meet your goal effectively.
It’s possible that stench and lights and locks will do the trick. But if you want to become a part of the neighborhood anyway, go knock on doors. Go meet your good neighbors, the people who aren’t annoying, and ask them what they know. Maybe they’ll have the story.
Maybe if you explain your situation, they can offer good advice grounded in their own experience of the neighborhood. In my experience, leading with curiosity rather than anger or rage leads to better results. Especially since the good neighbors may be related to the people pissing you off. We just don’t know, so it’s up to you to find out what you can. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 8:32 AM on December 7, 2021 [17 favorites]
PS: At no point have you sounded outraged or angry in your dealings with the annoying neighbors; I hope I did not imply anything else above.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:00 AM on December 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 9:00 AM on December 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
The ones who come to ask you for legal help, can you ask them for some help in return? Rather than refusing to help them, you can ask for a trade: your help for their advice on how to get a different hangout space going, so people don’t use your stoop. Or on how to set acceptable noise levels after 11 so you can sleep. (Or both). After all you’re both neighbors with problems— and you can help each other. You might have more luck finding effective ways to change the situation if you talk to people one-on-one instead of in a big group.
posted by nat at 9:45 AM on December 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by nat at 9:45 AM on December 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
Replace the low wall with a wrought iron fence and gate if permissible. Motion sensor flood lights along all sides of the house.
People will move on.
Do it over the winter so people will change their habits.
These are all very common organizational psychology practices. You can be welcoming during the day.
I'm sure the rest of the neighborhood isn't pleased that your house is a magnet for groups either.
posted by jello at 9:56 AM on December 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
People will move on.
Do it over the winter so people will change their habits.
These are all very common organizational psychology practices. You can be welcoming during the day.
I'm sure the rest of the neighborhood isn't pleased that your house is a magnet for groups either.
posted by jello at 9:56 AM on December 7, 2021 [10 favorites]
Maybe just making the top of the wall too dirty to want yo sit on would have an effect.
posted by SemiSalt at 10:57 AM on December 7, 2021
posted by SemiSalt at 10:57 AM on December 7, 2021
I’d love to see a picture of your house, the stoop and wall. From there we could probably make a few suggestions. There are plenty of simple hacks that may deter without being noticed to the point of causing retaliation. Implement changes slowly and over the winter if they disappear inside.
White noise, if done right can really drown out noise and help you sleep. If I was in your situation I would probably buy 2 or 3 LectroFans and test a whole bunch of positions relative to your bed to find optimal noise blocking.
For smells, good door and window wrap and insulation, combined with some strategically placed fans and an aromatherapy machine should help.
And please don’t get a baseball bat unless you are good at violence and beating people up with baseball bats. That’s a sure fire way to experience your baseball bat being taken from you and used against you.
posted by jasondigitized at 2:05 PM on December 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
White noise, if done right can really drown out noise and help you sleep. If I was in your situation I would probably buy 2 or 3 LectroFans and test a whole bunch of positions relative to your bed to find optimal noise blocking.
For smells, good door and window wrap and insulation, combined with some strategically placed fans and an aromatherapy machine should help.
And please don’t get a baseball bat unless you are good at violence and beating people up with baseball bats. That’s a sure fire way to experience your baseball bat being taken from you and used against you.
posted by jasondigitized at 2:05 PM on December 7, 2021 [5 favorites]
At a scan I can't tell if someone has suggested this, but along the lines of "build community," by all means do, and maybe start by trying to cultivate a relationship with a longer term neighbor who has credibility with these individuals, and ask them if they can work something out on your behalf behind the scenes.
Also want to add to the lower volume chorus here to not call the police. Good way to make it hard for yourself to become a member of your community, and we all know NYPD has killed *many* people for less than this over the years.
posted by kensington314 at 6:22 PM on December 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also want to add to the lower volume chorus here to not call the police. Good way to make it hard for yourself to become a member of your community, and we all know NYPD has killed *many* people for less than this over the years.
posted by kensington314 at 6:22 PM on December 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was also going to ask about your relationships with the neighbors who have houses like yours whose stoops Aren't being used for parties. It may just be that you live closest, and this is the house they now like to mess with / drive people away from, and there isn't an even-not-that-easy answer. But folks who've been around the neighborhood and dealt with these folks for a long time might have ideas on how to best discourage them without escalating.
posted by ldthomps at 7:18 PM on December 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by ldthomps at 7:18 PM on December 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
Could you occupy your stoop for yourself, while you’re home? Definitely not practical during their partying times, but being visible to the neighbourhood, especially if you have your child with you, may go a long way to re-establishing your territory. It could also have those unintended benefits of connecting with your neighbours in the non-partying hours. In the meantime, 100% agree with locking the gate as step 1.
posted by chronic sublime at 3:29 AM on December 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by chronic sublime at 3:29 AM on December 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
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If noise and light is an issue, consider replacing your windows with something that can block more noise and black out curtains.
It seems like you might be able to put a lock on your gate to alleviate the specific stoop aspect
posted by raccoon409 at 1:52 PM on December 6, 2021 [25 favorites]