Is my super's shopping cart a fire hazard?
December 3, 2021 6:48 AM Subscribe
I live in a NYC apartment building. Anytime the building's workers work on someone's apartment they leave a grocery store-style shopping cart in the hallway. They use the cart to bring tools back and forth to their workroom in the basement. The cart bothers me because it's an eyesore. It might also be a fire hazard. I brought it up with the super and he dismissed my concern over the fire hazard (he says people can get around it) and said leaving the cart in hallways has been their longstanding practice (he says they can't bring the cart into people's apartments because there often isn't room to do so). Seems to me that they could bring the tools into the apartment and take the cart back to the basement while they're doing the work. I have two questions. 1) Where can I find info/documentation on whether or not leaving a shopping cart in an apartment hallway a fire hazard and against city/state regulations? 2) Regardless, how should I go about convincing my super to change his policy?
It seems clear that you dislike this because it's unsightly and you're trying to justify that opinion with the fire hazard angle. You'll cause yourself a lot less hassle and stress in the long run to find it within yourself to let it go. I know that can be hard in our current timeline. But you REALLY do not want to make an enemy of the super of your NYC apartment.
posted by rikschell at 6:56 AM on December 3, 2021 [129 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 6:56 AM on December 3, 2021 [129 favorites]
Seems to me that they could bring the tools into the apartment and take the cart back to the basement while they're doing the work.
That is a lot of extra work so you don't have to see an unsightly cart. Tools are heavy and they often include a bunch of tiny, fiddly little things like screws or washers.
posted by soelo at 6:59 AM on December 3, 2021 [53 favorites]
That is a lot of extra work so you don't have to see an unsightly cart. Tools are heavy and they often include a bunch of tiny, fiddly little things like screws or washers.
posted by soelo at 6:59 AM on December 3, 2021 [53 favorites]
I live in DC, but this is absolutely standard practice in our building.
To clarify, you're saying that the cart is in the hallway for some number of daytime hours while they are actively working on an apartment, right? Not that it is stored there overnight, or when they are not working?
I have to say this is a totally reasonable practice, and your solution of taking the cart back to the basement during repairs is unrealistic given the nature of many repairs, where you might try a couple of different solutions or discover that you need different or additional parts.
How often is this happening? Respectfully, I don't understand why this is provoking such a strong response - is there some other part of this you're bothered by?
Edited to add - in our building it's one of those larger two leveled carts, like the size of a large room service cart. But we have pretty wide hallways, so it's still not hard to get by.
posted by mercredi at 7:02 AM on December 3, 2021 [27 favorites]
To clarify, you're saying that the cart is in the hallway for some number of daytime hours while they are actively working on an apartment, right? Not that it is stored there overnight, or when they are not working?
I have to say this is a totally reasonable practice, and your solution of taking the cart back to the basement during repairs is unrealistic given the nature of many repairs, where you might try a couple of different solutions or discover that you need different or additional parts.
How often is this happening? Respectfully, I don't understand why this is provoking such a strong response - is there some other part of this you're bothered by?
Edited to add - in our building it's one of those larger two leveled carts, like the size of a large room service cart. But we have pretty wide hallways, so it's still not hard to get by.
posted by mercredi at 7:02 AM on December 3, 2021 [27 favorites]
It sounds like you are looking for ways to make a person's physical labor job harder so that you don't have to look at something unpleasant to you.
Do some shopping around for carts that are less aesthetically triggering for you, ask the super which cart would suit their needs best, and then take up a collection from the other apartments to purchase this nicer cart as a holiday gift.
posted by phunniemee at 7:18 AM on December 3, 2021 [66 favorites]
Do some shopping around for carts that are less aesthetically triggering for you, ask the super which cart would suit their needs best, and then take up a collection from the other apartments to purchase this nicer cart as a holiday gift.
posted by phunniemee at 7:18 AM on December 3, 2021 [66 favorites]
It is probably not a fire hazard per se but it is a violation of most cities fire regulations because hallways are supposed to kept completely clear so there is both nothing to burn and more importantly nothing in the way of emergency egress in total darkness.
Short term having them in hallway is a reasonable compromise in order to allow repairs to be done but if they routinely leave them in hallways overnight that should be an issue. Unfortunately, cities really don't give much of a crap about the safety of people in apartment buildings so there would be zero likelihood of any possible enforcement for this.
To me this is small beans compared to larger risks like fire doors that don't work, stairwell doors that don't fully close, chained and padlocked emergency exits and things like that. Those you should 100% report.
posted by srboisvert at 7:29 AM on December 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
Short term having them in hallway is a reasonable compromise in order to allow repairs to be done but if they routinely leave them in hallways overnight that should be an issue. Unfortunately, cities really don't give much of a crap about the safety of people in apartment buildings so there would be zero likelihood of any possible enforcement for this.
To me this is small beans compared to larger risks like fire doors that don't work, stairwell doors that don't fully close, chained and padlocked emergency exits and things like that. Those you should 100% report.
posted by srboisvert at 7:29 AM on December 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
I agree that you don't want to make an enemy of your super.
Is there some alternative cart that might be more compact (a grocery store cart would take up a great deal of room in most NYC hallways), more efficient, and less unsightly? It might make a good present to your super on your behalf or on behalf of a coalition of neighbors. Something like this or this.
posted by CiaoMela at 8:02 AM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Is there some alternative cart that might be more compact (a grocery store cart would take up a great deal of room in most NYC hallways), more efficient, and less unsightly? It might make a good present to your super on your behalf or on behalf of a coalition of neighbors. Something like this or this.
posted by CiaoMela at 8:02 AM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
I also live in NYC, and was struggling with navigating my hallways with a broken knee. Neighbors leaving a stroller in the hallway 24/7 was the problem I had to contend with; I would have much preferred a temporary thing like this.
A utility cart that is getting left outside an apartment only while the super is working on it, and which then gets moved back down to the basement when he's done, is small potatoes. Especially if it sounds like there would be times when it isn't even on your floor in the first place.
I have a hunch that you have neighbors who leave bikes or shopping carts or strollers in their hallways; if that's the case, I'd ponder why you're turning a blind eye to them and are instead focusing on this. (If, however, you're also concerned about what your neighbors are doing, I'd start there instead of something that's a temporary matter anyway.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:05 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
A utility cart that is getting left outside an apartment only while the super is working on it, and which then gets moved back down to the basement when he's done, is small potatoes. Especially if it sounds like there would be times when it isn't even on your floor in the first place.
I have a hunch that you have neighbors who leave bikes or shopping carts or strollers in their hallways; if that's the case, I'd ponder why you're turning a blind eye to them and are instead focusing on this. (If, however, you're also concerned about what your neighbors are doing, I'd start there instead of something that's a temporary matter anyway.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:05 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm not saying it's right or fair, but in my experience with NYC apartments, outside of obvious threats to physical safety (like the heat not being turned on) there is no good way to take issue with something your super/landlord is doing without introducing a new set of probably-worse complications to your life.
posted by superfluousm at 8:11 AM on December 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by superfluousm at 8:11 AM on December 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
+1 to the idea of trying to help figure out a solution with a smaller cart or other method that compromises your issues with the super's needs to transport his stuff around. How to pay for the solution could be another part of the compromise - interested neighbors pay for half or something like that, for example.
posted by Mid at 8:12 AM on December 3, 2021
posted by Mid at 8:12 AM on December 3, 2021
I have never lived in an apartment complex where this didn’t happen. I would strongly suggest letting maintenance do their jobs and to stop nagging them about it if you don’t want them to think you’re the biggest pain in the ass of all time.
posted by stoneandstar at 8:18 AM on December 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 8:18 AM on December 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
I agree that you should leave this be and that if there's one person you don't want to have against you in an NYC building, it's your super. But if you're fixated on the fire hazard angle, you would have to demonstrate that it's in the same place for a documentable length of time. The fact that it moves around would make it pretty much impossible to report to anyone who would be in any authority to step in.
A lot of NYC buildings have rules against leaving items in the hallways. If that's your comfort level, then when your lease comes up it's something you can keep an eye out for in the future.
posted by Mchelly at 8:28 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
A lot of NYC buildings have rules against leaving items in the hallways. If that's your comfort level, then when your lease comes up it's something you can keep an eye out for in the future.
posted by Mchelly at 8:28 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
If you push this, you will probably end up needing to move out (or wishing you could).
If that turns out to be the case, you may as well skip the "pushing" part and go straight to moving out.
posted by aramaic at 8:31 AM on December 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
If that turns out to be the case, you may as well skip the "pushing" part and go straight to moving out.
posted by aramaic at 8:31 AM on December 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I love the idea of a more awesome work cart which is, hopefully, narrower than a bulky shopping cart. I'm thinking of those massive carts that hotel staff use when they are cleaning a room - those are always in the hall, are often not easy to get around and would probably be a fire hazard in a situation where hotel occupants would need to exit with haste. Since those are commercial buildings with a pretty high standard for egress safety....I have a feeling your residential concerns won't make the grade.
posted by amanda at 8:38 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by amanda at 8:38 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
The way to turn this into a big win for everyone is to a) look in the cart and see what tools he's bringing around, so you can choose a new cart intelligently; b) learn what tools or supplies he _wishes_ he could bring but can't manage in the grocery cart; c) talk to one or two of your neighbors to see _what their ideas are_ for replacing/improving the cart -- this will improve your choice, and also make them invested in the idea so that they're more likely to support it; d) really look around for the best tool cart _for your super's needs_; e) talk with more neighbors to see if they'll go in on a fabulous Christmas gift (in addition to tipping) that will make everyone's lives better; then f) do it! Get the money from your neighbors, buy the cart, put a big bow on it, get _everyone_ to sign a card!
If you just buy this on your own, the super will be less inclined to actually use it, and you might pick something that doesn't have room for all his stuff, etc. Moving his system from the shopping cart into anything new will be a hassle and will slow him down at first, so you'll have to make it really worth his while to make the change.
Bonus: you start a pattern of neighbors collaborating, AND you make everyone's lives better.
posted by amtho at 8:44 AM on December 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
If you just buy this on your own, the super will be less inclined to actually use it, and you might pick something that doesn't have room for all his stuff, etc. Moving his system from the shopping cart into anything new will be a hassle and will slow him down at first, so you'll have to make it really worth his while to make the change.
Bonus: you start a pattern of neighbors collaborating, AND you make everyone's lives better.
posted by amtho at 8:44 AM on December 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
This is pretty well within the range of normal apartment building behavior in my experience, as long as we're talking about a cart in the hallway while the work is actively being done, and not sitting out overnight. It's not great - though I'd be more concerned about accessibility than a fire hazard per se - but it's also not so egregious that I'd spend energy on it and risk making an enemy of the super unless it's posing an actual accessibility issue rather than a hypothetical one.
posted by Stacey at 8:59 AM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Stacey at 8:59 AM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
In your cart shopping keep in mind that a standard shopping cart is pretty skookum and tools are really heavy which is why, besides their easy availability, they are so popular with maintenance and homeless people. Any replacement cart should have capacities in the 500lb range; 250lbs is way too light duty.
Shopping carts in apartment buildings are also easy to replace if someone "repurposes" the cart you've been using because there is a constant stream of shopping carts to buildings.
posted by Mitheral at 9:13 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Shopping carts in apartment buildings are also easy to replace if someone "repurposes" the cart you've been using because there is a constant stream of shopping carts to buildings.
posted by Mitheral at 9:13 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
NYC has 311 you can call for assistance with fire hazards or blocked exits, but I can't predict whether they'll take "cart o' tools currently being used" as a threat. But it should at least get you to somebody who can give a qualified opinion on the matter.
(I know that a stroller in the hallway 24/7 like EmpressCallipygos described is the sort of thing that gets traction, but of course there are only so many people to address these comments and complaints. "Locked bedroom doors when the only fire escape is out that bedroom window" would be higher priority than "sometimes there's stuff in the hallway," which of course is more serious than "sometimes my neighbor's cooking smells bad.")
posted by adekllny at 10:09 AM on December 3, 2021
(I know that a stroller in the hallway 24/7 like EmpressCallipygos described is the sort of thing that gets traction, but of course there are only so many people to address these comments and complaints. "Locked bedroom doors when the only fire escape is out that bedroom window" would be higher priority than "sometimes there's stuff in the hallway," which of course is more serious than "sometimes my neighbor's cooking smells bad.")
posted by adekllny at 10:09 AM on December 3, 2021
(I am an apartment maintenance worker who uses a dolly and cart for my tools every workday.)
The kind response: See other comments above.
The cynical response: Are you fucking kidding me? You must have more important things to worry about. Do some of that other worrying instead.
posted by panhopticon at 11:30 AM on December 3, 2021 [45 favorites]
The kind response: See other comments above.
The cynical response: Are you fucking kidding me? You must have more important things to worry about. Do some of that other worrying instead.
posted by panhopticon at 11:30 AM on December 3, 2021 [45 favorites]
Yeah, in my mind the fact that they're actively doing maintenance on apartments in your building seems like something I'd definitely prefer even if they leave a cart in the hallway near the apartment they're working on. I would definitely not push this matter. Consider it the cost of having maintained apartments and find something more pressing to concern yourself with.
posted by Aleyn at 11:53 AM on December 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Aleyn at 11:53 AM on December 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
They can’t bring that size cart into the apartments because that really could create a fire hazard in most nyc apartments. They can’t stow it back in the basement because they need to access it as they work. I think this is one of those things where you should work on changing your mind instead of the situation.
Reporting to 311 would be a waste of city resources. There are enough dangerous building situations they need to address and I’d be pretty upset if I knew DOB or FDNY was investigating this nonissue when they could be addressing their backlog of dangerous issues.
posted by kapers at 7:46 PM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Reporting to 311 would be a waste of city resources. There are enough dangerous building situations they need to address and I’d be pretty upset if I knew DOB or FDNY was investigating this nonissue when they could be addressing their backlog of dangerous issues.
posted by kapers at 7:46 PM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Unless they're leaving it overnight, this is a complete nonissue and I'd have no problem with it happening in my building.
posted by augustimagination at 8:45 PM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by augustimagination at 8:45 PM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Even if it's an eyesore, it's an eyesore for only a few seconds of your day. I think to you, right now, it represents various annoying or frustrating things. (I say this as someone who often feels this way about things.) But it also represents people doing basic, valuable work (they're fixing people's problems with their homes, not helping unethical hi-tech or finance companies or whatever increase the wage gap or destroy the environment or take advantage of people who really can't afford it). It represents maintenance of your building. It represents less physical effort (or pain) and one indignity fewer for workers who at least don't have to make an extra basement trip all the time so that the people they do work for won't have their aesthetic sensibilities offended by their presence. And it probably represents some other decent things, but I'll leave that to you.
posted by trig at 1:07 AM on December 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by trig at 1:07 AM on December 4, 2021 [3 favorites]
To answer your first question re: finding info/documentation on regulations, try: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/fdny/codes/reference/reference.page
posted by smokyjoe at 7:22 AM on December 4, 2021
posted by smokyjoe at 7:22 AM on December 4, 2021
I would not want the shopping cart brought into my apartment while work is being performed; the wheels might leave some grimy tracks. Leaving it in the hallway is the most reasonable procedure.
posted by coldhotel at 8:27 AM on December 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by coldhotel at 8:27 AM on December 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
How much time are you spending in the hallway? A cart is the most efficient means to achieve what is being achieved here, so I think you will just need to put up with it.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:31 PM on December 5, 2021
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:31 PM on December 5, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by artdrectr at 6:54 AM on December 3, 2021