Finding a receiver for my mother's audio setup
November 30, 2021 5:56 AM Subscribe
My mother's house has 3 ceiling speakers: two in the living room (presumably stereo), and one in the kitchen (mono). She also has a pair of speakers in the den. Devices to power two sets of stereo speakers and a mono speaker are rare, so I'm considering getting a receiver which supports two sets of speakers (5.1 and stereo), using the stereo output for the den, the 5.1's left and right channels for the living room and center for the kitchen, but I'm wondering if audio would then sound weird in those two rooms.
I'm getting my mother set up with a receiver to replace a venerable, long-serving Marantz SR-63 , and her house turns out to be pretty well wired already with several ceiling speakers. She's not an audiophile, and generally plays classical music quietly, so reliability and straightforwardness are higher priorities than sound quality or power. The setup itself is two bookshelf speakers in one room, two ceiling speakers in another room, and a single ceiling speaker in a third room. The bookshelf speakers are definitely 8-ohm; the ceiling speakers probably are. If they could all be enabled or disabled separately that would be great, although if a receiver could handle all three ceiling speakers in some sort of parallel setup (although I'm not sure how I could run a mono speaker properly in parallel with two stereo speakers) and have only two speaker controls (one for the bookshelves, another for the ceilings) that would be second-best. She doesn't need different inputs running simultaneously in different zones. Speaking of inputs, she only really needs one, RCA or TOSLINK, in addition to a radio option, although if other inputs are there there are certainly other devices she'd hook into it. We prefer banana plug connections for speakers but can live with spring clips.
These demands don't seem extraordinary, but it seems like it's the three-sets-of-speakers element that really limits the search. A lot of good receivers are up to doing two sets of speakers, but for more than 3, it looks like my options are too-big-for-her-needs multizone things like the Marantz SR7015 and low-end products like the Pyle PTA66BT.
Also, I'm unsure, from a wiring perspective, how to integrate the mono speaker into any of these receivers where most speaker connections are stereo --- everything I've seen suggests that just splicing together the left and right connections and running them to the speaker is a bad idea.
Would taking a receiver capable of driving a 5.1 and 2-channel speakers and running the left and right outputs of the 5.1 to the stereo ceiling speakers and the center channel to the mono ceiling speaker work out at all? That would definitely widen my search space.
Thanks to all! My home-audio knowledge is rudimentary and, I figured, up to the modest demands of this system, but finding a receiver meeting the specific needs in this situation is surprisingly difficult.
(I asked this one on reddit's r/hometheater and got surprisingly unhelpful replies; I'm hoping mefites might get closer to the actual root of the question)
I'm getting my mother set up with a receiver to replace a venerable, long-serving Marantz SR-63 , and her house turns out to be pretty well wired already with several ceiling speakers. She's not an audiophile, and generally plays classical music quietly, so reliability and straightforwardness are higher priorities than sound quality or power. The setup itself is two bookshelf speakers in one room, two ceiling speakers in another room, and a single ceiling speaker in a third room. The bookshelf speakers are definitely 8-ohm; the ceiling speakers probably are. If they could all be enabled or disabled separately that would be great, although if a receiver could handle all three ceiling speakers in some sort of parallel setup (although I'm not sure how I could run a mono speaker properly in parallel with two stereo speakers) and have only two speaker controls (one for the bookshelves, another for the ceilings) that would be second-best. She doesn't need different inputs running simultaneously in different zones. Speaking of inputs, she only really needs one, RCA or TOSLINK, in addition to a radio option, although if other inputs are there there are certainly other devices she'd hook into it. We prefer banana plug connections for speakers but can live with spring clips.
These demands don't seem extraordinary, but it seems like it's the three-sets-of-speakers element that really limits the search. A lot of good receivers are up to doing two sets of speakers, but for more than 3, it looks like my options are too-big-for-her-needs multizone things like the Marantz SR7015 and low-end products like the Pyle PTA66BT.
Also, I'm unsure, from a wiring perspective, how to integrate the mono speaker into any of these receivers where most speaker connections are stereo --- everything I've seen suggests that just splicing together the left and right connections and running them to the speaker is a bad idea.
Would taking a receiver capable of driving a 5.1 and 2-channel speakers and running the left and right outputs of the 5.1 to the stereo ceiling speakers and the center channel to the mono ceiling speaker work out at all? That would definitely widen my search space.
Thanks to all! My home-audio knowledge is rudimentary and, I figured, up to the modest demands of this system, but finding a receiver meeting the specific needs in this situation is surprisingly difficult.
(I asked this one on reddit's r/hometheater and got surprisingly unhelpful replies; I'm hoping mefites might get closer to the actual root of the question)
Wikipedia: "5.1 systems [have] a front left and right, a center channel, two surround channels (left and right) and the low-frequency effects channel designed for a subwoofer. ... The center speaker is used for dialogue. The left and right speakers on either side of the center speaker are used to create stereo sound for music and other sound effects in the film. The left and right surround speakers ... create the surround sound effect."
So all the channels aren't carrying the same audio information; the signals for the mono ("center") speaker and the second ("surround") set of ceiling speakers aren't equivalent to the signals for the first ("front") set, and wouldn't sound the same.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:49 AM on November 30, 2021
So all the channels aren't carrying the same audio information; the signals for the mono ("center") speaker and the second ("surround") set of ceiling speakers aren't equivalent to the signals for the first ("front") set, and wouldn't sound the same.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:49 AM on November 30, 2021
Response by poster: A clarification because it looks like Greg_Ace misunderstood my proposed idea: I wasn't planning on hooking these 5 speakers up to the 5 channels of the 5.1 output, but rather hooking up one of the stereo speakers (probably the non-ceiling speakers) to the stereo-only speaker output of a standard receiver set up to drive both a stereo (2 channel) output and a 5.1 output, to hook up the two living room speakers to left and right of the 5.1 output, to hook up the kitchen to the center 5.1, and to leave the surround and sub 5.1 channels completely unconnected. The surround channels on a stereo-to-5.1 upscaling (which is what would be being done here under most circumstances) don't have full sound at all in my experience and would be unsuitable as standalones --- but the center and the left/right pair might?
posted by jackbishop at 10:02 AM on November 30, 2021
posted by jackbishop at 10:02 AM on November 30, 2021
You're looking for a multi-room controller or zone amp, I believe - those are the phrases that should help, at the very least.
posted by sagc at 10:31 AM on November 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 10:31 AM on November 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am not an audiophile, but I enjoy research. And this is deeper waters than I suspected. :)
You need a mixer to "combine" the two stereo channels into a mono channel. You can't just cross them.
Yet cheap "summing" amp/mixer doesn't seem to exist, or use professional plugs like XLR (for guitar amps and pro microphones). Cheapest I found was this Monoprice and it's $30 and has TRS in and XLR out. Next up is a Behringer Monitor1 with TSR in and Out at $45. THEN you still have to go through an adapter to connect it to mono speaker.
It may just be easier to connect only the left channel and call it a day. :D
You're probably better off with a multi-zone controller that can give you mono directly rather than trying to downmix to mono.
posted by kschang at 11:01 AM on November 30, 2021
You need a mixer to "combine" the two stereo channels into a mono channel. You can't just cross them.
Yet cheap "summing" amp/mixer doesn't seem to exist, or use professional plugs like XLR (for guitar amps and pro microphones). Cheapest I found was this Monoprice and it's $30 and has TRS in and XLR out. Next up is a Behringer Monitor1 with TSR in and Out at $45. THEN you still have to go through an adapter to connect it to mono speaker.
It may just be easier to connect only the left channel and call it a day. :D
You're probably better off with a multi-zone controller that can give you mono directly rather than trying to downmix to mono.
posted by kschang at 11:01 AM on November 30, 2021
a receiver which supports two sets of speakers (5.1 and stereo)
Mmmmm . . . Not really a home A/V guy, but did you have specific models in mind?
Because TBH most of the stuff I'm finding/have experience with doesn't have separate speaker outputs for both stereo and 5.1 - if you don't care about 5.1 you just hook up to the Left & Right "front" outputs and don't feed the receiver 5.1 material.
Speaking of which, what's her sources? Playing CD's? Streaming Spotify off a phone connected to the Marantz? Because part of 5.1 is the source material has to be mixed in 5.1, and I am not at all sure what any given receiver (and it may vary depending on manufacturer/model) will do with the "extra" speaker outputs if it's only being fed stereo material.
how to integrate the mono speaker into any of these receivers where most speaker connections are stereo; two ceiling speakers in another room, and a single ceiling speaker in a third room
How are these hooked up to the Marantz now? That will give you some useful info on how to connect things, because the Marantz has two sets of stereo outputs - the mono ceiling speaker has to be connected to one of those, eventually.
finding a receiver meeting the specific needs in this situation is surprisingly difficult.
Ehhh . . . not that surprising, kinda. Because consumer technology marches on? Like, 20/30 years ago it was a "fashionable" thing to have a big set AND a little set of speakers for your home stereo (Loud speakers/quiet speakers), or something like your mom has, with a set of speakers in another room, and so plenty of receivers were made with multiple stereo speaker outputs.
These days the fashion is 5.1 or 7.1 or 9.2 or other stuff where you set up a whole set of speakers to give you the surround sound "movie theater" experience when you're watching stuff on TV, and if you want music in multiple rooms you get a Sonos or some other wireless system, you don't have a receiver with multiple stereo outputs.
Speaking of which, what's wrong with the Marantz? It might be worth it to get it fixed or maybe just buy an older restored receiver from roughly the same era that has multiple stereo outputs.
posted by soundguy99 at 2:20 PM on November 30, 2021
Mmmmm . . . Not really a home A/V guy, but did you have specific models in mind?
Because TBH most of the stuff I'm finding/have experience with doesn't have separate speaker outputs for both stereo and 5.1 - if you don't care about 5.1 you just hook up to the Left & Right "front" outputs and don't feed the receiver 5.1 material.
Speaking of which, what's her sources? Playing CD's? Streaming Spotify off a phone connected to the Marantz? Because part of 5.1 is the source material has to be mixed in 5.1, and I am not at all sure what any given receiver (and it may vary depending on manufacturer/model) will do with the "extra" speaker outputs if it's only being fed stereo material.
how to integrate the mono speaker into any of these receivers where most speaker connections are stereo; two ceiling speakers in another room, and a single ceiling speaker in a third room
How are these hooked up to the Marantz now? That will give you some useful info on how to connect things, because the Marantz has two sets of stereo outputs - the mono ceiling speaker has to be connected to one of those, eventually.
finding a receiver meeting the specific needs in this situation is surprisingly difficult.
Ehhh . . . not that surprising, kinda. Because consumer technology marches on? Like, 20/30 years ago it was a "fashionable" thing to have a big set AND a little set of speakers for your home stereo (Loud speakers/quiet speakers), or something like your mom has, with a set of speakers in another room, and so plenty of receivers were made with multiple stereo speaker outputs.
These days the fashion is 5.1 or 7.1 or 9.2 or other stuff where you set up a whole set of speakers to give you the surround sound "movie theater" experience when you're watching stuff on TV, and if you want music in multiple rooms you get a Sonos or some other wireless system, you don't have a receiver with multiple stereo outputs.
Speaking of which, what's wrong with the Marantz? It might be worth it to get it fixed or maybe just buy an older restored receiver from roughly the same era that has multiple stereo outputs.
posted by soundguy99 at 2:20 PM on November 30, 2021
Ok, as promised, the stereo to mono speaker level converter. A line level mixer like others have proposed won't work as you don't want the entire system to be mono- you want stereo separation in the rooms with two speakers.
You could just use a basic 2 channel receiver, an add-on speaker switchbox, connect the bookshelf speakers to output 1, the stereo ceiling speakers to output 2 and the transfomer/stereo mono converter and single speaker to output 3. I wouldn't recommend this setup for any sort of high level, rocking out type scenario as slapping multiple speakers in parallel via a speaker switchbox is bending the impedance rating of the receiver, but it should work fine for the scenario you're describing. If you were going to be pushing the receiver hard, it might overheat or go into protection mode, but for this application, no worries.
Another way of doing it would be to buy a receiver with A/B speaker outputs and L/R or Zone 2 preamp outputs. "A" speaker output goes to bookshelf speakers, "B" speaker output goes to stereo ceiling speakers and the preamp outputs can drive some cheap-o class D power amplifier for the mono speaker, there's one on Amazon for $80.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:17 PM on November 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
You could just use a basic 2 channel receiver, an add-on speaker switchbox, connect the bookshelf speakers to output 1, the stereo ceiling speakers to output 2 and the transfomer/stereo mono converter and single speaker to output 3. I wouldn't recommend this setup for any sort of high level, rocking out type scenario as slapping multiple speakers in parallel via a speaker switchbox is bending the impedance rating of the receiver, but it should work fine for the scenario you're describing. If you were going to be pushing the receiver hard, it might overheat or go into protection mode, but for this application, no worries.
Another way of doing it would be to buy a receiver with A/B speaker outputs and L/R or Zone 2 preamp outputs. "A" speaker output goes to bookshelf speakers, "B" speaker output goes to stereo ceiling speakers and the preamp outputs can drive some cheap-o class D power amplifier for the mono speaker, there's one on Amazon for $80.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:17 PM on November 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Are all the speaker wires run to a single place? Are there volume controls in each room? If so, then something like this well-regarded, cheap Sony will do fine driving the stereo speakers.
posted by Runes at 6:09 PM on November 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Runes at 6:09 PM on November 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Many thanks to all --- I'm getting good stuff to chew on here and need to look at a lot of the devices people are recommending with an eye towards ease of use and simplicity, but responses to specific queries:
soundguy99: what's her sources? Playing CD's?
A Sonos device maybe half the age of the Marantz, which plays classical music off Sirius XM. It's currently hooked up with RCA cables, but it's got a TOSlink output but I kind of doubt it's actually sending surround audio --- XM apparently supports 5.1 but I doubt this specific receiver does.
soundguy99: not at all sure what any given receiver (and it may vary depending on manufacturer/model) will do with the "extra" speaker outputs if it's only being fed stereo material.
I know that many 5.1 systems have onboard audio-processing to "upscale" stereo audio. It's my understanding most receivers use one or both of the Dolby Pro Logic II or DTS Neo:6 interpolation techniques. I don't know audio engineering well enough to know what they do behind the scenes, but they do construct a center channel from stereo data.
soundguy99: most of the stuff I'm finding/have experience with doesn't have separate speaker outputs for both stereo and 5.1 - if you don't care about 5.1 you just hook up to the Left & Right "front" outputs and don't feed the receiver 5.1 material.
Ugh, this looks to be truer than I realized. In 2013 I bought an Onkyo R290, which seemed a fairly ordinary 5.1 speaker system, and it had separate "speaker 2" stereo outputs. I fooled myself into thinking that was industry standard then and still is now. Guess not!
soundguy99: How are [the ceiling speakers] hooked up to the Marantz now?
The two living room speakers are connected (to the "B" speaker outputs), and the kitchen speaker isn't. That's an OK state of affairs, but if we're going to revamp the audio setup, we'd like to fix it so that that speaker's available too.
soundguy99: what's wrong with the Marantz?
The left channel (on both speaker outputs) is producing extremely crackly and distorted sound. I'll admit I don't know much about repairability of consumer stereo units and if they are (or used to be), then I'd certainly be in favor of prolonging this one's life. So many these days seem to be a single board in a big box and there's not much in the way of servicable components.
Runes: Are all the speaker wires run to a single place? Are there volume controls in each room?
There's a banana-plug panel in the den with 4 sets of plugs. Two of them go to the living room speakers. One goes to the kitchen speaker. The fourth we don't know about, but now I'm thinking of testing it to see if the ceiling speaker is actually stereo in a single enclosure as Larry David Syndrome suggested. There aren't individual volume controls.
posted by jackbishop at 7:12 AM on December 1, 2021
soundguy99: what's her sources? Playing CD's?
A Sonos device maybe half the age of the Marantz, which plays classical music off Sirius XM. It's currently hooked up with RCA cables, but it's got a TOSlink output but I kind of doubt it's actually sending surround audio --- XM apparently supports 5.1 but I doubt this specific receiver does.
soundguy99: not at all sure what any given receiver (and it may vary depending on manufacturer/model) will do with the "extra" speaker outputs if it's only being fed stereo material.
I know that many 5.1 systems have onboard audio-processing to "upscale" stereo audio. It's my understanding most receivers use one or both of the Dolby Pro Logic II or DTS Neo:6 interpolation techniques. I don't know audio engineering well enough to know what they do behind the scenes, but they do construct a center channel from stereo data.
soundguy99: most of the stuff I'm finding/have experience with doesn't have separate speaker outputs for both stereo and 5.1 - if you don't care about 5.1 you just hook up to the Left & Right "front" outputs and don't feed the receiver 5.1 material.
Ugh, this looks to be truer than I realized. In 2013 I bought an Onkyo R290, which seemed a fairly ordinary 5.1 speaker system, and it had separate "speaker 2" stereo outputs. I fooled myself into thinking that was industry standard then and still is now. Guess not!
soundguy99: How are [the ceiling speakers] hooked up to the Marantz now?
The two living room speakers are connected (to the "B" speaker outputs), and the kitchen speaker isn't. That's an OK state of affairs, but if we're going to revamp the audio setup, we'd like to fix it so that that speaker's available too.
soundguy99: what's wrong with the Marantz?
The left channel (on both speaker outputs) is producing extremely crackly and distorted sound. I'll admit I don't know much about repairability of consumer stereo units and if they are (or used to be), then I'd certainly be in favor of prolonging this one's life. So many these days seem to be a single board in a big box and there's not much in the way of servicable components.
Runes: Are all the speaker wires run to a single place? Are there volume controls in each room?
There's a banana-plug panel in the den with 4 sets of plugs. Two of them go to the living room speakers. One goes to the kitchen speaker. The fourth we don't know about, but now I'm thinking of testing it to see if the ceiling speaker is actually stereo in a single enclosure as Larry David Syndrome suggested. There aren't individual volume controls.
posted by jackbishop at 7:12 AM on December 1, 2021
The left channel (on both speaker outputs) is producing extremely crackly and distorted sound.
That could be a dirty volume/balance/input switching control, which could be a DIY fix with some contact cleaner, especially if you're willing do the relatively simple task of taking the top cover off. (Unplug from electricity and let it sit for a while first.)
It could also be a bad RCA cable (yes, I know, it worked just fine days ago, it's never been moved or stressed or unplugged . . . Rule #1 is "try a different cable." Always.) or something gone awry on the input channel she's using. Have you tried swapping the Sonos to a different input?
So many these days seem to be a single board in a big box and there's not much in the way of servicable components.
True, true, but considering it's a mid-90's unit, and taking a quick look at the service manual, there seem to be plenty of actual components besides IC's, and it sounds to me like there's a good chance it's a bad transistor or capacitor or op amp or solder joint (if it's not bad cable or dirty control), which should be fixable if you have someone in the area that does actual stereo repair.
The fourth we don't know about, but now I'm thinking of testing it to see if the ceiling speaker is actually stereo in a single enclosure
Yeah, definitely test it. Check the impedance, too, because even if it's not a stereo speaker, you could possibly get away with just connecting the kitchen speaker to one side of the other output. (As in, Left "B" has the left living room and the kitchen, Right "B" is just the right living room.) As long as the total impedance isn't too low it's probably not a big deal to run the outputs with different loads per side. (I mean, this is generally not a thing you should make a habit of doing, but your mom's not listening to AC/DC at concert volumes, it'll be fine.) She'll only get the left side of the material, but I dunno that it'll make much of a difference to her if it's mostly sort of background music in the kitchen.
And Runes clearly beats me in the Google skills department for the day - if the Marantz is unfixable that Sony he linked to looks like it should do the job, going with the idea of pairing the kitchen speaker with the living room speakers.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:03 PM on December 1, 2021
That could be a dirty volume/balance/input switching control, which could be a DIY fix with some contact cleaner, especially if you're willing do the relatively simple task of taking the top cover off. (Unplug from electricity and let it sit for a while first.)
It could also be a bad RCA cable (yes, I know, it worked just fine days ago, it's never been moved or stressed or unplugged . . . Rule #1 is "try a different cable." Always.) or something gone awry on the input channel she's using. Have you tried swapping the Sonos to a different input?
So many these days seem to be a single board in a big box and there's not much in the way of servicable components.
True, true, but considering it's a mid-90's unit, and taking a quick look at the service manual, there seem to be plenty of actual components besides IC's, and it sounds to me like there's a good chance it's a bad transistor or capacitor or op amp or solder joint (if it's not bad cable or dirty control), which should be fixable if you have someone in the area that does actual stereo repair.
The fourth we don't know about, but now I'm thinking of testing it to see if the ceiling speaker is actually stereo in a single enclosure
Yeah, definitely test it. Check the impedance, too, because even if it's not a stereo speaker, you could possibly get away with just connecting the kitchen speaker to one side of the other output. (As in, Left "B" has the left living room and the kitchen, Right "B" is just the right living room.) As long as the total impedance isn't too low it's probably not a big deal to run the outputs with different loads per side. (I mean, this is generally not a thing you should make a habit of doing, but your mom's not listening to AC/DC at concert volumes, it'll be fine.) She'll only get the left side of the material, but I dunno that it'll make much of a difference to her if it's mostly sort of background music in the kitchen.
And Runes clearly beats me in the Google skills department for the day - if the Marantz is unfixable that Sony he linked to looks like it should do the job, going with the idea of pairing the kitchen speaker with the living room speakers.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:03 PM on December 1, 2021
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posted by Larry David Syndrome at 6:10 AM on November 30, 2021 [3 favorites]