Did the west trade any spices to the east via the silk road?
October 25, 2021 7:47 PM Subscribe
I know lots of other goods and technologies (and a shit ton of gold) were transferred to the India and China by the west in the spice trade, but specifically were any spices traded to the east?
I'm wondering more about pre "age of discovery"...so, what, before the 1400s? I suppose I'm curious about after that timeframe too, but, I know lots of foodstuffs from the americas were adopted in other cultures (chilis, potatoes, corn) and foods all kind of became more widespread during that time. I'm specifically wondering about anything that is common, or prized in Asia like spices are in the west, even if it isn't at all consumed like it was in the west.
Were there any particular herbs, or spices in particular that Europe exported to Asia? Any other food-stuffs?
I'm wondering more about pre "age of discovery"...so, what, before the 1400s? I suppose I'm curious about after that timeframe too, but, I know lots of foodstuffs from the americas were adopted in other cultures (chilis, potatoes, corn) and foods all kind of became more widespread during that time. I'm specifically wondering about anything that is common, or prized in Asia like spices are in the west, even if it isn't at all consumed like it was in the west.
Were there any particular herbs, or spices in particular that Europe exported to Asia? Any other food-stuffs?
There's also a lot of history of foodstuffs spread in Salt, by Mark Kurlansky, just because salt aided the storage of foods so much.
What @kschang says above also tracks with what i remember from this book--
It's not exactly food, but tobacco, alcohol, opium and other intoxicants immediately came to mind, probably because I just finished Killer High, a history of War in 6 drugs. (very interesting). One of my takeaways from the book was that the east didn't want anything from Europe as bad as Europe wanted tea and spices, except maybe silver, and europe only had so much of that to trade, so Europe resorted to pushing the terribly intoxicating and addictive pleasure substances they had, namely Booze and Tobacco (which they um... got... from the indigenous people of the americas) and then when that wasnt enough the british later um... forced... the opium trade.
(plz forgive the ....shorthand... for the all the terrible history, just trying to be succinct in my tangential summary)
posted by wowenthusiast at 8:39 PM on October 25, 2021
What @kschang says above also tracks with what i remember from this book--
It's not exactly food, but tobacco, alcohol, opium and other intoxicants immediately came to mind, probably because I just finished Killer High, a history of War in 6 drugs. (very interesting). One of my takeaways from the book was that the east didn't want anything from Europe as bad as Europe wanted tea and spices, except maybe silver, and europe only had so much of that to trade, so Europe resorted to pushing the terribly intoxicating and addictive pleasure substances they had, namely Booze and Tobacco (which they um... got... from the indigenous people of the americas) and then when that wasnt enough the british later um... forced... the opium trade.
(plz forgive the ....shorthand... for the all the terrible history, just trying to be succinct in my tangential summary)
posted by wowenthusiast at 8:39 PM on October 25, 2021
If you're asking if spices were traded eastward at all, then they certainly were, but if you're asking about spices being traded from Europe specifically, there simply aren't many spices that are native to Europe exclusively. Spices that are native to Europe include mustard, coriander, caraway, fennel, juniper, and bay leaves, but I believe all of these were also found at least in the Middle East if not further east, so they would not have been traded east from Europe. Depending how you define a spice, you might find there are no spices at all that were exclusively found in Europe at the time the spice routes reached them.
Spices generally grow in hot climates, so there weren't a lot of spices in Europe. The spices they did have were largely from the hotter parts of Europe, along the Mediterranean, which meant that many of them were already found at least on the eastern end of the Mediterranean as well and generally further east. We don't really know where many of these Mediterranean plants were originally found, as they have been widespread for so long. Europeans did have a lot of herbs, but those aren't nearly as conducive to trade, especially overland trade (they lose potency quickly, give a lot less flavour for their volume and weight, and are fragile).
As a bit of an aside, there must be some other reason other than heat that a lot of the spices we use today are native to Eastern and Southern Asia, but I'm not sure what it is. I would think any kind of climate reasons would also apply to Central and Southern America, but we have very few spices from that region. Is there something special about the Asian regions that resulted in so many spices we use today? Or was it just chance, perhaps something to do with the evolution of animal species that spices co-evolved with? Or are there spices waiting in the Americas that were simply never used by native people (maybe because they had chiles)? I'd love to know.
posted by ssg at 10:36 PM on October 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Spices generally grow in hot climates, so there weren't a lot of spices in Europe. The spices they did have were largely from the hotter parts of Europe, along the Mediterranean, which meant that many of them were already found at least on the eastern end of the Mediterranean as well and generally further east. We don't really know where many of these Mediterranean plants were originally found, as they have been widespread for so long. Europeans did have a lot of herbs, but those aren't nearly as conducive to trade, especially overland trade (they lose potency quickly, give a lot less flavour for their volume and weight, and are fragile).
As a bit of an aside, there must be some other reason other than heat that a lot of the spices we use today are native to Eastern and Southern Asia, but I'm not sure what it is. I would think any kind of climate reasons would also apply to Central and Southern America, but we have very few spices from that region. Is there something special about the Asian regions that resulted in so many spices we use today? Or was it just chance, perhaps something to do with the evolution of animal species that spices co-evolved with? Or are there spices waiting in the Americas that were simply never used by native people (maybe because they had chiles)? I'd love to know.
posted by ssg at 10:36 PM on October 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Poking around on google I found this tidbit which actually cites a primary source.
It doesn't say which way the specific goods were traded, but it looks like walnuts, furs, hides, fishtails, sal almoniac, and copper at least could be found in Europe and copper and gold traded from North Africa.
Also, based a recent MeFi post, I looked into walrus ivory, it looks like that ended up getting traded East too, though perhaps it was less popular as a trade good by 1340.
Other sources mentioned things like elephant ivory (traded from Africa), weapons, horses, and glassware, but I couldn't find specific mentions of evidence for those. Also, I found mention of Italy becoming a hub of finished silk production, but that was near the age of discovery and it's not clear how. much if any raw silk for finished Italian silk trade was going on.
posted by Zalzidrax at 5:06 AM on October 26, 2021
It doesn't say which way the specific goods were traded, but it looks like walnuts, furs, hides, fishtails, sal almoniac, and copper at least could be found in Europe and copper and gold traded from North Africa.
Also, based a recent MeFi post, I looked into walrus ivory, it looks like that ended up getting traded East too, though perhaps it was less popular as a trade good by 1340.
Other sources mentioned things like elephant ivory (traded from Africa), weapons, horses, and glassware, but I couldn't find specific mentions of evidence for those. Also, I found mention of Italy becoming a hub of finished silk production, but that was near the age of discovery and it's not clear how. much if any raw silk for finished Italian silk trade was going on.
posted by Zalzidrax at 5:06 AM on October 26, 2021
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posted by kickingtheground at 8:37 PM on October 25, 2021