How to handle major dust-up with friend?
August 26, 2021 11:08 AM Subscribe
I recently had a dispute with a close friend, and I’m really not understanding either what exactly went wrong or how to fix it. Warning: very long.
I have a friend I’ll call Robert. We both lived in a big city, and we’ve been very close for a couple of years. Recently, Robert decided to move back to Dallas, where he was born and raised, mostly to be closer to his family. I was frankly pretty upset abut this, but I didn’t express that to him, other than to say I would miss him.
Robert had a pretty good job here in this City, and he tried to negotiate with them to arrange a remote working arrangement, but they wouldn’t accept it, as they wanted his job to remain onsite. For that reason, he moved to Dallas without having a job first.
Before Robert left, he said that he’d like to work a particular type of large company, as he thought that work would pay fairly well and would suit him. As it happens, my brother works at one of the large companies he was seeking employment with, although not in the Dallas office. I told Robert that he should give me his resume, and I would pass it along to my brother. He did, and I did. My brother said he would send it to the appropriate people in Dallas to see if they could help Robert out.
Flash forward a month or so. Robert has now moved, and is staying with his sister, with whom he has an ok relationship, not great. I would check in with him periodically to see whether he was doing all right. When we were chatting over text one day recently, he asked me if I could follow up with my brother to see if anything was going on with the job. I said that my brother was on vacation, but I would ask him, and Robert said that if I thought it was better to wait until my brother got back home, that was fine. As it happens, I have a bunch of stressful things going on, including starting a new job myself. So following up with my brother slipped my mind.
About two weeks later, the night before I started my new job, I sent Robert a text and he gave a very terse response. I asked him whether everything was ok, and he replied that he was feeling pretty anxious and stressed. I said I was sorry and asked him if there was anything I could do to help. He was sort of cagey about answering, and when I pressed him, he said that he was wondering whether I actually had a lead for a job for him. I apologized profusely and said I would text my brother right then, which I did. He replied, “Well, you don’t have to; I understand that it’s not really a priority.” I said, “Of course I’ll text him. I was just distracted because I have other stressful stuff going on at the moment.” He replied that he got the distinct impression that I wasn’t something I was concerned about, and I said it wasn’t that I “wasn’t concerned,” but that I had just forgotten to follow up after my brother got home. He observed that for him, there was no practical difference between the two. I said again that I was really sorry, but I wasn’t sure what to do to make it right other than to apologize and follow up with my brother.
He said, “Fine. I won’t ask about it anymore.” He was obviously angry, and I told him I didn’t really understand why he was so angry at me. He said I was getting “pissy” with him because he was upset that I forgot, and that when I checked in on him, it was “merely lip service.” I was kind of perplexed by this, as from my vantage point, all I had done was to apologize profusely and follow up with my brother right that very minute. I said I had no idea where he was getting that I was “pissy,” and then I said, “I’m human and I fucked up. If you want to glean from that that I don’t really care about you, then I’m not sure what to say.”
He then more or less went off on me, saying that my apologies didn’t mean anything, because it had just slipped my mind like an errand to the store even though this was far more important. He also said that I thought “sorry” was supposed to be like a magic eraser, and that I was taking the position that he shouldn’t be bothered by my behavior simply because I’d apologized. I observed that for some reason, it appeared that he wanted to be angry at me, and that anything I said was just making him angrier. He then said that I “got off on people being mad” at me so that I could just throw up my hands. I said I understood that he was disappointed and frustrated and scared, and that if I could take that away I would, but that it felt like he was just imputing the least charitable motives he could to everything I did or said.
This went on for a while, and I finally said I was afraid to even say anything else because we were basically talking past each other. He said fine, we’d just leave it here for now; he sent “best wishes at work tomorrow” and said he’d talk to me later.
I didn’t hear another word from him. I texted him yesterday asking him whether he felt like talking on Friday night, and he responded, “Why do you want to talk?” I said I wanted to talk because I didn’t think we really resolved our last discussion and I didn’t think it was a good discussion to have over text. He agreed to talk via FaceTime on Friday.
So, I’m completely poleaxed by this whole thing. For one thing, in my own world, when you say to someone, “Hey, I’ll pass your resume along,” it’s understood that once you do that, except for maybe trying to follow up once or twice, things are basically out of your hands. But Robert is acting as though I broke a promise to him or something. And to be clear, I do not work at the company my brother works at, and my brother himself doesn’t even work in the Dallas office.
I’m just at a complete loss as to how to handle this. I’m pretty angry right now, as I feel as though I’m being punished for offering to be helpful and I resent being put in that position. I also feel as though Robert attacked me in a really unfair way, but that if I try to reason with him, it just makes him madder. I’m also kicking myself because I’ve had some experience in moving from city to city, and in my experience, it is *not* a good idea to make a major move to a different city without having a job first. However, because I generally have a policy not to give people unsolicited advice, I kept that opinion to myself; now I’m thinking a lot of this could have been avoided if I’d spoken up. Also, candidly: of course someone else’s job search isn’t as important to me as it is to them, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to act as though it should be. But that doesn’t mean I don’t care at all.
First question: am I being unreasonable here? Second question: I get the impression that Robert basically is done with me over this, which I find really hard to fathom. Is it worth trying to salvage things?
I have a friend I’ll call Robert. We both lived in a big city, and we’ve been very close for a couple of years. Recently, Robert decided to move back to Dallas, where he was born and raised, mostly to be closer to his family. I was frankly pretty upset abut this, but I didn’t express that to him, other than to say I would miss him.
Robert had a pretty good job here in this City, and he tried to negotiate with them to arrange a remote working arrangement, but they wouldn’t accept it, as they wanted his job to remain onsite. For that reason, he moved to Dallas without having a job first.
Before Robert left, he said that he’d like to work a particular type of large company, as he thought that work would pay fairly well and would suit him. As it happens, my brother works at one of the large companies he was seeking employment with, although not in the Dallas office. I told Robert that he should give me his resume, and I would pass it along to my brother. He did, and I did. My brother said he would send it to the appropriate people in Dallas to see if they could help Robert out.
Flash forward a month or so. Robert has now moved, and is staying with his sister, with whom he has an ok relationship, not great. I would check in with him periodically to see whether he was doing all right. When we were chatting over text one day recently, he asked me if I could follow up with my brother to see if anything was going on with the job. I said that my brother was on vacation, but I would ask him, and Robert said that if I thought it was better to wait until my brother got back home, that was fine. As it happens, I have a bunch of stressful things going on, including starting a new job myself. So following up with my brother slipped my mind.
About two weeks later, the night before I started my new job, I sent Robert a text and he gave a very terse response. I asked him whether everything was ok, and he replied that he was feeling pretty anxious and stressed. I said I was sorry and asked him if there was anything I could do to help. He was sort of cagey about answering, and when I pressed him, he said that he was wondering whether I actually had a lead for a job for him. I apologized profusely and said I would text my brother right then, which I did. He replied, “Well, you don’t have to; I understand that it’s not really a priority.” I said, “Of course I’ll text him. I was just distracted because I have other stressful stuff going on at the moment.” He replied that he got the distinct impression that I wasn’t something I was concerned about, and I said it wasn’t that I “wasn’t concerned,” but that I had just forgotten to follow up after my brother got home. He observed that for him, there was no practical difference between the two. I said again that I was really sorry, but I wasn’t sure what to do to make it right other than to apologize and follow up with my brother.
He said, “Fine. I won’t ask about it anymore.” He was obviously angry, and I told him I didn’t really understand why he was so angry at me. He said I was getting “pissy” with him because he was upset that I forgot, and that when I checked in on him, it was “merely lip service.” I was kind of perplexed by this, as from my vantage point, all I had done was to apologize profusely and follow up with my brother right that very minute. I said I had no idea where he was getting that I was “pissy,” and then I said, “I’m human and I fucked up. If you want to glean from that that I don’t really care about you, then I’m not sure what to say.”
He then more or less went off on me, saying that my apologies didn’t mean anything, because it had just slipped my mind like an errand to the store even though this was far more important. He also said that I thought “sorry” was supposed to be like a magic eraser, and that I was taking the position that he shouldn’t be bothered by my behavior simply because I’d apologized. I observed that for some reason, it appeared that he wanted to be angry at me, and that anything I said was just making him angrier. He then said that I “got off on people being mad” at me so that I could just throw up my hands. I said I understood that he was disappointed and frustrated and scared, and that if I could take that away I would, but that it felt like he was just imputing the least charitable motives he could to everything I did or said.
This went on for a while, and I finally said I was afraid to even say anything else because we were basically talking past each other. He said fine, we’d just leave it here for now; he sent “best wishes at work tomorrow” and said he’d talk to me later.
I didn’t hear another word from him. I texted him yesterday asking him whether he felt like talking on Friday night, and he responded, “Why do you want to talk?” I said I wanted to talk because I didn’t think we really resolved our last discussion and I didn’t think it was a good discussion to have over text. He agreed to talk via FaceTime on Friday.
So, I’m completely poleaxed by this whole thing. For one thing, in my own world, when you say to someone, “Hey, I’ll pass your resume along,” it’s understood that once you do that, except for maybe trying to follow up once or twice, things are basically out of your hands. But Robert is acting as though I broke a promise to him or something. And to be clear, I do not work at the company my brother works at, and my brother himself doesn’t even work in the Dallas office.
I’m just at a complete loss as to how to handle this. I’m pretty angry right now, as I feel as though I’m being punished for offering to be helpful and I resent being put in that position. I also feel as though Robert attacked me in a really unfair way, but that if I try to reason with him, it just makes him madder. I’m also kicking myself because I’ve had some experience in moving from city to city, and in my experience, it is *not* a good idea to make a major move to a different city without having a job first. However, because I generally have a policy not to give people unsolicited advice, I kept that opinion to myself; now I’m thinking a lot of this could have been avoided if I’d spoken up. Also, candidly: of course someone else’s job search isn’t as important to me as it is to them, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to act as though it should be. But that doesn’t mean I don’t care at all.
First question: am I being unreasonable here? Second question: I get the impression that Robert basically is done with me over this, which I find really hard to fathom. Is it worth trying to salvage things?
It sounds like you're both a little at-fault here. In terms of the way things are playing out, I think he bears more of the burden for the upset though.
You did indeed let the follow-up with your brother slip, and to someone with no job, that seems like a much larger mistake than it probably does to you. That said, you were generous to offer to do it in the first place, and if your brother's company hadn't gotten back to him already, it seems like they are likely not very interested in him.
From your description, Robert comes off as very reactive and more than a little bit passive-aggressive. You've apologized, and it sounds like you've done so sincerely. It's not "a magic eraser," but it's about all you can do. To me, it also seems like he's looking for someone or something to blame for the situation he's in, and you're bearing the brunt of that right now.
If this were me, I'd let the situation cool off significantly before I tried to make things better. At most, I'd send him a text to say that you hope the follow-up with your brother helps, and that you hope that you both can get past this.
Then, I'd leave it alone for a while. Weeks? Months? I'd let him take the lead on the next step.
posted by yellowcandy at 11:39 AM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
You did indeed let the follow-up with your brother slip, and to someone with no job, that seems like a much larger mistake than it probably does to you. That said, you were generous to offer to do it in the first place, and if your brother's company hadn't gotten back to him already, it seems like they are likely not very interested in him.
From your description, Robert comes off as very reactive and more than a little bit passive-aggressive. You've apologized, and it sounds like you've done so sincerely. It's not "a magic eraser," but it's about all you can do. To me, it also seems like he's looking for someone or something to blame for the situation he's in, and you're bearing the brunt of that right now.
If this were me, I'd let the situation cool off significantly before I tried to make things better. At most, I'd send him a text to say that you hope the follow-up with your brother helps, and that you hope that you both can get past this.
Then, I'd leave it alone for a while. Weeks? Months? I'd let him take the lead on the next step.
posted by yellowcandy at 11:39 AM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Robert is really stressed and is projecting the anger he rightly feels with himself onto you. You definitely didn't do anything wrong. I would recommend giving him a lot of space right now to process things and calm down, to the point where I would actually cancel the call and put the ball in his court I would message him to say that I now had plans to go out Friday evening so wasn't available to chat but to let me know when he'd like to catch up another time. I'd tell him that you've followed up with your brother and have fingers, toes and everything crossed for him. And that you miss him a lot and would love to talk another time soon. And then just wait until he's ready.
posted by hazyjane at 11:42 AM on August 26, 2021 [23 favorites]
posted by hazyjane at 11:42 AM on August 26, 2021 [23 favorites]
Yeah, I'd also try to move the call, though I wouldn't do it in a way that made it seem like talking with him was less of a priority than some other plans (given that that was the whole thing that set all this off).
I'd maybe write and say "hey, when I brought up having another talk on Friday, it was because I was really uncomfortable with the way we left things. You're a dear friend to me. But I also don't want to push you into a conversation right now if it's not a good time for you, and I know you must be stressed given everything that's going on. So let's talk on Friday if you're up for it, or just leave it be until things are less stressful for you. Whichever you prefer."
Then if you want you can resume some light correspondence that ignores the fight in the meantime.
posted by trig at 11:47 AM on August 26, 2021 [18 favorites]
I'd maybe write and say "hey, when I brought up having another talk on Friday, it was because I was really uncomfortable with the way we left things. You're a dear friend to me. But I also don't want to push you into a conversation right now if it's not a good time for you, and I know you must be stressed given everything that's going on. So let's talk on Friday if you're up for it, or just leave it be until things are less stressful for you. Whichever you prefer."
Then if you want you can resume some light correspondence that ignores the fight in the meantime.
posted by trig at 11:47 AM on August 26, 2021 [18 favorites]
Your friend is stressed out and handling it poorly. You can choose to try and more actively support his job search but you certainly shouldn't feel any obligation to do so. You would also be reasonable if you chose to distance for a time until he settles down.
posted by Wretch729 at 11:49 AM on August 26, 2021
posted by Wretch729 at 11:49 AM on August 26, 2021
To me it sounds like Robert doesn't even understand how recruiting works at a big company. Passing someone's resume along isn't a guarantee, and following up often isn't even helpful. But he seems to have gotten the idea that you were his lifeline, and that that was a role you didn't care enough about. Neither of those things is true or correct.
I think the only thing you can really do now is give Robert some space and welcome him back if he decides to come to his senses later. But you know, he might not. That's the nature of friendship, sometimes it comes and goes.
because I generally have a policy not to give people unsolicited advice, I kept that opinion to myself; now I’m thinking a lot of this could have been avoided if I’d spoken up.
Don't beat yourself up about this, it's impossible to know if that advice would have been received or not. When someone gets it into their head that they need to go now, then they need to go now and nothing will talk them out of it. As well if Robert made it all the way to 2021 without already finding out you can't really just move to a new city anymore, then he probably wouldn't have listened anyway.
posted by bleep at 11:49 AM on August 26, 2021 [29 favorites]
I think the only thing you can really do now is give Robert some space and welcome him back if he decides to come to his senses later. But you know, he might not. That's the nature of friendship, sometimes it comes and goes.
because I generally have a policy not to give people unsolicited advice, I kept that opinion to myself; now I’m thinking a lot of this could have been avoided if I’d spoken up.
Don't beat yourself up about this, it's impossible to know if that advice would have been received or not. When someone gets it into their head that they need to go now, then they need to go now and nothing will talk them out of it. As well if Robert made it all the way to 2021 without already finding out you can't really just move to a new city anymore, then he probably wouldn't have listened anyway.
posted by bleep at 11:49 AM on August 26, 2021 [29 favorites]
Robert is stressed about being unemployed in a new city and is taking it out on you, a person who has no obligation or even really any ability to secure him a new job. I'm not sure what is to be gained from talking about it more this week, or even talking about it again at all. I would just give him some space.
posted by cakelite at 12:01 PM on August 26, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 12:01 PM on August 26, 2021 [14 favorites]
You generously connected with your brother but did not harass your brother. It's a big ask. Robert thought getting a job would be easier and faster, is stressed, anxious and irritable. Is taking it out on you. Robert is responsible for their job, move, etc. You are not. Give it some time. If the friendship is broken, it's because Robert is acting out.
posted by theora55 at 12:23 PM on August 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 12:23 PM on August 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
I think you maybe screwed up a little bit by forgetting to pass on the resume, but he is in the process of screwing up a lot by transferring his anger at his situation onto you. Both screw-ups are human and understandable, but his screw-up is the one that is current and ongoing.
If this is a friendship you value and that you get a lot out of -- if what he's showing you now is substantially different from what you see from him when he's not in a bad, stressful situation -- then I think you can just give him some space and cut him some slack. He'll probably come to the correct conclusion as soon as his stress fades a bit -- that he's being a jerk, that you're not responsible for his problems, etc. If he's a decent guy, at that point he'll apologize and you can both get past it to resume your friendship.
I think it's a bad time to push for another talk. I agree with the others who've said it may be best to push the call back a few weeks, until he's had a chance to get his head on straight. If he's still in his own personal hell, he may not be able to met you halfway, and so any conversation you have could end up just making it all worse. You could be right - he could ust really want, or even need, to be mad at something right now, and you're convenient. You might even feel safe to be mad at, if you've been friends a long time and are really close. People are contrary like that. There's no downside to waiting until he's sorted himself out a bit before hashing this out again.
All that said, is this part of a pattern with him? Does he often take his stress out on others? Does he often blame others for his own misfortunes, or hold grudges for (real or imagined) slights? Some of the stuff he said to you about your apology raises red flags for me - the bit about using an apology as a magic eraser, just playing lip service, etc. Those are not really off-the-cuff statements, they're not the kind of thing that just occurs on the spot; they have an air of long practice to them that makes he wonder if either he's been rehearsing this in his head for quite a while, or if maybe it's the kind of thing he says to a LOT of people.
If this is a one-off thing, sure, patch things up when he's calmed down. But if this isn't the first time he's done this either to you or to people you know -- I'd think seriously about whether you want to patch things up.
posted by invincible summer at 12:23 PM on August 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
If this is a friendship you value and that you get a lot out of -- if what he's showing you now is substantially different from what you see from him when he's not in a bad, stressful situation -- then I think you can just give him some space and cut him some slack. He'll probably come to the correct conclusion as soon as his stress fades a bit -- that he's being a jerk, that you're not responsible for his problems, etc. If he's a decent guy, at that point he'll apologize and you can both get past it to resume your friendship.
I think it's a bad time to push for another talk. I agree with the others who've said it may be best to push the call back a few weeks, until he's had a chance to get his head on straight. If he's still in his own personal hell, he may not be able to met you halfway, and so any conversation you have could end up just making it all worse. You could be right - he could ust really want, or even need, to be mad at something right now, and you're convenient. You might even feel safe to be mad at, if you've been friends a long time and are really close. People are contrary like that. There's no downside to waiting until he's sorted himself out a bit before hashing this out again.
All that said, is this part of a pattern with him? Does he often take his stress out on others? Does he often blame others for his own misfortunes, or hold grudges for (real or imagined) slights? Some of the stuff he said to you about your apology raises red flags for me - the bit about using an apology as a magic eraser, just playing lip service, etc. Those are not really off-the-cuff statements, they're not the kind of thing that just occurs on the spot; they have an air of long practice to them that makes he wonder if either he's been rehearsing this in his head for quite a while, or if maybe it's the kind of thing he says to a LOT of people.
If this is a one-off thing, sure, patch things up when he's calmed down. But if this isn't the first time he's done this either to you or to people you know -- I'd think seriously about whether you want to patch things up.
posted by invincible summer at 12:23 PM on August 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Robert is going way over the top here. Passing along a resume is a minor and kinda meaningless gesture in the first place, especially when the appropriate course of action is for Robert to apply for the company via the normal channels and either put down your brother's name (with permission via you) as a referrer or then let you know the application has been submitted and you tell your brother to invoke whatever internal referral mechanism his company has. This way Robert is in control of as much of this process as possible.
That is how someone aggressively job-hunts. Robert isn't trying very hard or does not understand how to get a job. Not your fault.
I think you should offer an (unnecessary but politic) apology if it came off as if you don't care, but clarify that your brother is not a big shot at this company and does not have any influence over hiring in Dallas and if Robert would like to take the actions above you will be the middleman in that effort but that is all you or your brother can do, and you are again sorry if he thought more than that was going to be possible or that this had any sort of high likelihood in turning into a job that he should move for. Reiterate that you are rooting for him and looking forward to being a great reference (or whatever) and you're sorry this is so stressful.
I kind of doubt this is a major dust-up, unless he ends up so embarrassed that he fades away. A lot of people would let the dust settle and proceed as if nothing had happened. It's fine that you want to deeply process it and now you are kind of obligated to finish processing it, but if he continues to want you to be the cause of all his problems and/or his punching bag you should nope out and stop trying to blame yourself for all this.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:27 PM on August 26, 2021 [18 favorites]
That is how someone aggressively job-hunts. Robert isn't trying very hard or does not understand how to get a job. Not your fault.
I think you should offer an (unnecessary but politic) apology if it came off as if you don't care, but clarify that your brother is not a big shot at this company and does not have any influence over hiring in Dallas and if Robert would like to take the actions above you will be the middleman in that effort but that is all you or your brother can do, and you are again sorry if he thought more than that was going to be possible or that this had any sort of high likelihood in turning into a job that he should move for. Reiterate that you are rooting for him and looking forward to being a great reference (or whatever) and you're sorry this is so stressful.
I kind of doubt this is a major dust-up, unless he ends up so embarrassed that he fades away. A lot of people would let the dust settle and proceed as if nothing had happened. It's fine that you want to deeply process it and now you are kind of obligated to finish processing it, but if he continues to want you to be the cause of all his problems and/or his punching bag you should nope out and stop trying to blame yourself for all this.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:27 PM on August 26, 2021 [18 favorites]
are you guys really young? Because Robert's misunderstandings about how networking and jobs and resumes work are not too different from how mine were when I was in my early 20s.
(Not that I would have behaved the way he's behaving. Just I can see how if he (1) was foolish enough to move without a job, and (2) now realizes his mistake and is desperate, and (3) mistakenly believes that having an "in" at a company from a random employee is materially different from just applying to an appropriate open req, then he might be really hurt that you didn't prioritize the resume-handing.)
Anyway, all I might do now in your shoes is assure him you did pass it along but that your brother let you know he's not actually as well placed to help with recruitment as you thought.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:30 PM on August 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
(Not that I would have behaved the way he's behaving. Just I can see how if he (1) was foolish enough to move without a job, and (2) now realizes his mistake and is desperate, and (3) mistakenly believes that having an "in" at a company from a random employee is materially different from just applying to an appropriate open req, then he might be really hurt that you didn't prioritize the resume-handing.)
Anyway, all I might do now in your shoes is assure him you did pass it along but that your brother let you know he's not actually as well placed to help with recruitment as you thought.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:30 PM on August 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
OP did pass the resume along. He just didn't follow up with the brother to see if anything came of it. I really do not see much fault, if any, here to own up to. "Oh yes, sorry, I meant to check in, but you haven't heard anything, right?"
I think Robert is panicking and doesn't know how to process this panic. You are bearing the brunt of this. Not following up with your brother on the shorter rather than the longer timeline is almost irrelevant. Big Company would have contacted Robert if they were interested.
I agree with Lyn Never above and will add that possibly Robert erroneously thought he had a back door into Big Company through your brother and moved partially on the reliance of that. Since that was imagined, a misread of how things work, and untrue, the reality is settling in and it is unpleasant. You are on the wrong end of this.
Use the script above to reschedule the call.
posted by oflinkey at 12:32 PM on August 26, 2021 [29 favorites]
I think Robert is panicking and doesn't know how to process this panic. You are bearing the brunt of this. Not following up with your brother on the shorter rather than the longer timeline is almost irrelevant. Big Company would have contacted Robert if they were interested.
I agree with Lyn Never above and will add that possibly Robert erroneously thought he had a back door into Big Company through your brother and moved partially on the reliance of that. Since that was imagined, a misread of how things work, and untrue, the reality is settling in and it is unpleasant. You are on the wrong end of this.
Use the script above to reschedule the call.
posted by oflinkey at 12:32 PM on August 26, 2021 [29 favorites]
I don't think people who are employed really get how stressful it is to not have a job and what it's like to struggle to find work. It's all you think about. It's a very desperate situation. Any opportunity for a job is a massive deal.
I definitely get how he feels you broke a promise, whether or not it's a rational thought. Clearly he had everything riding on getting this job, especially since your brother is at the company and especially because you asked him for his resume. That would feel like a sure shot to me i.e. "my bro will make it happen". He likely believed that your brother had a lot more influence than he actually does. You've been able to get on with life but he has been "waiting by the phone" for this every day.
it’s understood that once you do that, except for maybe trying to follow up once or twice, things are basically out of your hands.
With a stranger, yes but not with a friend or the brother of... There is some certainty implied. At many companies they have a "recommend a friend" scheme. Simply knowing someone gets many people through the door. This is a thing that happens in the real world so it's not as if he is being completely unreasonable.
But Robert is acting as though I broke a promise to him or something.
He had a lot riding on this which he shouldn't have, as nothing is ever certain. He took too much of a risk and relied upon another person to help him get set up. It's a tough lesson for him. He should have been far more responsible about getting a concrete job offer before he moved anywhere. It's surprising that an adult would do this.
my brother himself doesn’t even work in the Dallas office.
Does he know?
During your Friday face-time, you need to mention that your brother doesn't have any influence over those decisions and that you didn't realise he was relying on this situation to get his life started.
I don't especially like the way he's being with you and I think he has been extremely naive but I do understand the frustration.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 12:38 PM on August 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
I definitely get how he feels you broke a promise, whether or not it's a rational thought. Clearly he had everything riding on getting this job, especially since your brother is at the company and especially because you asked him for his resume. That would feel like a sure shot to me i.e. "my bro will make it happen". He likely believed that your brother had a lot more influence than he actually does. You've been able to get on with life but he has been "waiting by the phone" for this every day.
it’s understood that once you do that, except for maybe trying to follow up once or twice, things are basically out of your hands.
With a stranger, yes but not with a friend or the brother of... There is some certainty implied. At many companies they have a "recommend a friend" scheme. Simply knowing someone gets many people through the door. This is a thing that happens in the real world so it's not as if he is being completely unreasonable.
But Robert is acting as though I broke a promise to him or something.
He had a lot riding on this which he shouldn't have, as nothing is ever certain. He took too much of a risk and relied upon another person to help him get set up. It's a tough lesson for him. He should have been far more responsible about getting a concrete job offer before he moved anywhere. It's surprising that an adult would do this.
my brother himself doesn’t even work in the Dallas office.
Does he know?
During your Friday face-time, you need to mention that your brother doesn't have any influence over those decisions and that you didn't realise he was relying on this situation to get his life started.
I don't especially like the way he's being with you and I think he has been extremely naive but I do understand the frustration.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 12:38 PM on August 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
He then more or less went off on me, saying that my apologies didn’t mean anything, because it had just slipped my mind like an errand to the store even though this was far more important. He also said that I thought “sorry” was supposed to be like a magic eraser, and that I was taking the position that he shouldn’t be bothered by my behavior simply because I’d apologized
Others have his reasons and some good next steps covered but I really wanted to touch on this part--because I was just on the receiving end of this, and got to process it with my therapist, and my takeaways might be helpful to you.
There is such a thing as a person who expects apologies to be a "magic eraser," and offers up bland apologies instead of truly addressing what they did wrong. I don't think that you're that person. For one thing, you DID address your error, in addition to apologizing. But I think there's an off chance that because you weren't perceiving this as a big mistake on your part (misjudging Robert's investment in the situation), that you responded with an air of oh I'm sincerely sorry, but I just sent the text now and it is no big deal, so let's move on to happier stuff.
Whereas Robert cannot think of happier stuff because that's not where his head is, so your apology may have come across to him as "Welp sorry your whole future's fucked, how about them Sports Team?"
You're apologizing for the thing you did, but Robert is mad at you for the way he feels. So that's why he's giving you the "your apologies are nothing" line. Not because you're insincere, but because he doesn't feel better, and he doesn't know how to, and you're the most proximate cause of his bad-feeling.
In my own case, what my therapist suggested was taking apologies off the table entirely and just holding space for the person to have their feelings around me. Obviously don't do this if it's going to be abusive and awful, but if you can use your Friday call to hold space for Robert to just sincerely freak the shit out about his life, I would bet any doubts about your sincerity will fly right out the window.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:49 PM on August 26, 2021 [12 favorites]
Others have his reasons and some good next steps covered but I really wanted to touch on this part--because I was just on the receiving end of this, and got to process it with my therapist, and my takeaways might be helpful to you.
There is such a thing as a person who expects apologies to be a "magic eraser," and offers up bland apologies instead of truly addressing what they did wrong. I don't think that you're that person. For one thing, you DID address your error, in addition to apologizing. But I think there's an off chance that because you weren't perceiving this as a big mistake on your part (misjudging Robert's investment in the situation), that you responded with an air of oh I'm sincerely sorry, but I just sent the text now and it is no big deal, so let's move on to happier stuff.
Whereas Robert cannot think of happier stuff because that's not where his head is, so your apology may have come across to him as "Welp sorry your whole future's fucked, how about them Sports Team?"
You're apologizing for the thing you did, but Robert is mad at you for the way he feels. So that's why he's giving you the "your apologies are nothing" line. Not because you're insincere, but because he doesn't feel better, and he doesn't know how to, and you're the most proximate cause of his bad-feeling.
In my own case, what my therapist suggested was taking apologies off the table entirely and just holding space for the person to have their feelings around me. Obviously don't do this if it's going to be abusive and awful, but if you can use your Friday call to hold space for Robert to just sincerely freak the shit out about his life, I would bet any doubts about your sincerity will fly right out the window.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:49 PM on August 26, 2021 [12 favorites]
+1 on the suggested script to give your friend some space and let them get back in touch with you when they are thinking more clearly. If I were you, I would not poke the bear any more but I also wouldn't engage with someone who is so irrationally angry at me. It seems quite obvious to me that your friends anger at you is misplaced. In my opinion, Robert owes you an apology when he is feeling better. If you're feeling generous enough to let this behavior go because of the bad place he's currently in, that's up to you, but I would not keep exposing myself to his unreasonable behavior right now and would wait until he's in a better place.
posted by pazazygeek at 1:04 PM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by pazazygeek at 1:04 PM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've felt this kind of desperation. It's based in ignorance, sure, but he's stressed because he put all his eggs in his handing a resume to you.
The QUICKEST way of dealing with this is with a white lie that speaks the truth: "Just heard back from brother. He doesn't have any pull, sorry, he just emailed it to HR and that's pretty much all he can do." Get it off your plate, "big companies are like that," don't give him your brother's contact info, and push him to apply to the company through the front door (the company's jobs page). I think the blamey flying off the handle stuff can probably be forgotten in the long run (while also maybe keeping him 10% more at arm's length, at least until he's over this job hump).
posted by rhizome at 1:04 PM on August 26, 2021 [13 favorites]
The QUICKEST way of dealing with this is with a white lie that speaks the truth: "Just heard back from brother. He doesn't have any pull, sorry, he just emailed it to HR and that's pretty much all he can do." Get it off your plate, "big companies are like that," don't give him your brother's contact info, and push him to apply to the company through the front door (the company's jobs page). I think the blamey flying off the handle stuff can probably be forgotten in the long run (while also maybe keeping him 10% more at arm's length, at least until he's over this job hump).
posted by rhizome at 1:04 PM on August 26, 2021 [13 favorites]
It doesn't sound to me like you / your brother implied a guaranteed job or anything. You said you would pass along a resume, and you did. Robert could always apply himself to BigDallasCompany. Robert could have followed up with your or asked for your brother's contact info to follow up directly. Robert should have clarified what the likelihood was of hearing back though this route. (Most companies, especially large ones, will only accept applications through their official systems regardless of who is referring them anyway.)
What seems to be happening is Robert is frustrated. He hasn't found a job yet. He's in a living situation he doesn't like. Maybe he is realizing he didn't have a secure enough plan. And suddenly you come along! Someone to blame! Someone to take the guilt so he doesn't have to put it on himself. "Hey, remember, O Sock My Sock didn't get back to me for 2 weeks! Surely that's the problem!"
Now you're the vessel for everything wrong in his mind. You aren't. You offered and completed a small favor. You didn't ghost him. You cared enough in the first place to offer a favor. Robert alone is responsible for Robert's job.
I agree it sounds like you're young. If you're not, then I would be a bit concerned about the maturity levels here.
If you want to try to continue the friendship, give it some time. Possibly even until Robert reaches out and the dust has settled for him. I also don't like things unresolved, so I may want to say something the next time you talk. Because it also seems your feelings are hurt, and I would be too.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:18 PM on August 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
What seems to be happening is Robert is frustrated. He hasn't found a job yet. He's in a living situation he doesn't like. Maybe he is realizing he didn't have a secure enough plan. And suddenly you come along! Someone to blame! Someone to take the guilt so he doesn't have to put it on himself. "Hey, remember, O Sock My Sock didn't get back to me for 2 weeks! Surely that's the problem!"
Now you're the vessel for everything wrong in his mind. You aren't. You offered and completed a small favor. You didn't ghost him. You cared enough in the first place to offer a favor. Robert alone is responsible for Robert's job.
I agree it sounds like you're young. If you're not, then I would be a bit concerned about the maturity levels here.
If you want to try to continue the friendship, give it some time. Possibly even until Robert reaches out and the dust has settled for him. I also don't like things unresolved, so I may want to say something the next time you talk. Because it also seems your feelings are hurt, and I would be too.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:18 PM on August 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
You disappointed him and he overreacted. People under a lot of stress are often not very generous - once things hopefully turn around for him, he might say so himself.
Your mistake, if any, was trying to make him see that on the spot, when he just hasn't the bandwith for that right now due to his immediate crisis. I kinda agree with him that it would be unreasonable to expect his feelings to change on the spot just because of an apology. Unclear, if that's what you did, but again that's how he apparently felt.
Apologies are no quick fixes, they can set things back on a better course again, but ultimately you have to let people move in their own pace. Sometimes you just have to sit with someone's anger for bit, even if it's not entirely deserved, and give them a chance to sort things out for themselves. It's uncomfortable, and you're of course not obligated to bear it, but since you're the one presumably more at ease right now, maybe_you_ can afford to be a bit generous. At any rate, there's rarely much point in arguing in such a situation. You can't expect people to see much nuance while they're panicking. A flawless person would not take out their stress on a friend in such as situation, but a flawless person also wouldn't have forgotten about the plea for the follow-up. You could start a big debate as to what's the bigger flaw, but I'm not sure there's much benefit in it.
In your shoes, I would give your friend some space, then pretend like nothing happend and see if he goes along. I mean, you apologized already for forgetfulness, you could repeat that, if necessary, but I really wouldn't go into anything about the discussion afterwards.
I suspect that's the route your friend would have preferrend to go - "what do you want to talk about" to me sounds like he would prefer to forget about this conversation, possibly because deep down, he knows that he's misplacing some anger (eg. about his own hasty decisions) and didn't exactly cover himself with glory either. It doesn't sound to me like he wants to end the friendship over this; wishing you a good day at work might well be his idea of an olive branch. My guess is that he wouldn't demand another apology from you, but probably isn't in a mental space right now where he's willing to apologize for his own part in the quarrel. If that's what I needed to hear, I would a wait a bit until he has a job and feels better until I bring it up again.
Since you did already say however, that you want to talk about this again on Friday, I guess you kinda have to go into it a bit - but I would really keep it short. If you do want to take the generous route, you could say that you got a bit emotional last time, and you just want to stress that you do care about him and that you maybe didn't sufficiently consider how much stress he must be under right now.
Then it would be his turn to be graceful and take you at your word, that you do care, that forgetting his request is not a general symptom of indifference. If he starts again with the lip-service-business, don't go into it. You might say that you're sad he feels that way, but you accept that's how feels right now and you will give him the space that he needs.
posted by sohalt at 1:20 PM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Your mistake, if any, was trying to make him see that on the spot, when he just hasn't the bandwith for that right now due to his immediate crisis. I kinda agree with him that it would be unreasonable to expect his feelings to change on the spot just because of an apology. Unclear, if that's what you did, but again that's how he apparently felt.
Apologies are no quick fixes, they can set things back on a better course again, but ultimately you have to let people move in their own pace. Sometimes you just have to sit with someone's anger for bit, even if it's not entirely deserved, and give them a chance to sort things out for themselves. It's uncomfortable, and you're of course not obligated to bear it, but since you're the one presumably more at ease right now, maybe_you_ can afford to be a bit generous. At any rate, there's rarely much point in arguing in such a situation. You can't expect people to see much nuance while they're panicking. A flawless person would not take out their stress on a friend in such as situation, but a flawless person also wouldn't have forgotten about the plea for the follow-up. You could start a big debate as to what's the bigger flaw, but I'm not sure there's much benefit in it.
In your shoes, I would give your friend some space, then pretend like nothing happend and see if he goes along. I mean, you apologized already for forgetfulness, you could repeat that, if necessary, but I really wouldn't go into anything about the discussion afterwards.
I suspect that's the route your friend would have preferrend to go - "what do you want to talk about" to me sounds like he would prefer to forget about this conversation, possibly because deep down, he knows that he's misplacing some anger (eg. about his own hasty decisions) and didn't exactly cover himself with glory either. It doesn't sound to me like he wants to end the friendship over this; wishing you a good day at work might well be his idea of an olive branch. My guess is that he wouldn't demand another apology from you, but probably isn't in a mental space right now where he's willing to apologize for his own part in the quarrel. If that's what I needed to hear, I would a wait a bit until he has a job and feels better until I bring it up again.
Since you did already say however, that you want to talk about this again on Friday, I guess you kinda have to go into it a bit - but I would really keep it short. If you do want to take the generous route, you could say that you got a bit emotional last time, and you just want to stress that you do care about him and that you maybe didn't sufficiently consider how much stress he must be under right now.
Then it would be his turn to be graceful and take you at your word, that you do care, that forgetting his request is not a general symptom of indifference. If he starts again with the lip-service-business, don't go into it. You might say that you're sad he feels that way, but you accept that's how feels right now and you will give him the space that he needs.
posted by sohalt at 1:20 PM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
I said I wanted to talk because I didn’t think we really resolved our last discussion and I didn’t think it was a good discussion to have over text.
Wait, all the back and forth to this point was over text?
No wonder it went pear shaped. Don't do that.
Yes, I know, this is 2021 and text is normal now. That doesn't make it good.
Text is just the wrong medium for conversations with emotional heft, because it turns rapidly formulated and therefore often poorly expressed or ambiguous wording into a permanently readable artefact that gets read, over and over and over, in a doomed attempt to extract more meaning from it than is actually in it.
All it takes is for one party to interpret some of the wording in another's text message in a way that triggers annoyance. The natural tendency at that point is to read the message again just to make sure it really does say those words, then interpret the exact same words the exact same way, piling on another serving of annoyance. Most people don't habitually try to seek a more charitable reading for text that's already annoyed us. We should, obviously, but it seems most of us just don't bother.
It doesn't take many rounds of rereading until the urge to return serve becomes overwhelming, and now you have two people yelling at each other over text who would never have got to that point in a face to face conversation because contextual cues like tone of voice and body language, plus the simple fact that the spoken word ceases to exist after it's been spoken, would have nipped it in the bud.
This is not either party's fault. It's text's fault. Text has so little scope for communicating anything but the words of itself.
As soon as you sense a text conversation beginning to run off the rails this way, the first thing to do is just stop responding. The next thing to do is give both yourself and the other party a full day to calm the fuck down. Then visit or call and sort it out like human beings.
One of the reasons I vastly prefer Keybase encrypted instant messaging to SMS is that the Keybase chat client leaves all messages in a chat thread fully under the control of their senders. If some message I've sent appears to have provoked an unexpectedly negative response, then rather than leaving it festering on the recipient's device forever I can just delete it and it disappears for all participants.
Obviously that can't work if the recipient has already backed up their decrypted copy somewhere outside the Keybase chat client, but that requires deliberate per-message action and doesn't usually happen. This is excellent insurance against constantly having to deal with the kind of nonsense that you and your friend are currently working your way through.
Please excuse me now; I've just spotted six more clouds I need to yell at. You're welcome to keep using the lawn, though. It's quite nice, what with the chamomile and all. And the belt onions are hanging up there in the back porch if you'd like to take one with you when you go.
posted by flabdablet at 1:53 PM on August 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
Wait, all the back and forth to this point was over text?
No wonder it went pear shaped. Don't do that.
Yes, I know, this is 2021 and text is normal now. That doesn't make it good.
Text is just the wrong medium for conversations with emotional heft, because it turns rapidly formulated and therefore often poorly expressed or ambiguous wording into a permanently readable artefact that gets read, over and over and over, in a doomed attempt to extract more meaning from it than is actually in it.
All it takes is for one party to interpret some of the wording in another's text message in a way that triggers annoyance. The natural tendency at that point is to read the message again just to make sure it really does say those words, then interpret the exact same words the exact same way, piling on another serving of annoyance. Most people don't habitually try to seek a more charitable reading for text that's already annoyed us. We should, obviously, but it seems most of us just don't bother.
It doesn't take many rounds of rereading until the urge to return serve becomes overwhelming, and now you have two people yelling at each other over text who would never have got to that point in a face to face conversation because contextual cues like tone of voice and body language, plus the simple fact that the spoken word ceases to exist after it's been spoken, would have nipped it in the bud.
This is not either party's fault. It's text's fault. Text has so little scope for communicating anything but the words of itself.
As soon as you sense a text conversation beginning to run off the rails this way, the first thing to do is just stop responding. The next thing to do is give both yourself and the other party a full day to calm the fuck down. Then visit or call and sort it out like human beings.
One of the reasons I vastly prefer Keybase encrypted instant messaging to SMS is that the Keybase chat client leaves all messages in a chat thread fully under the control of their senders. If some message I've sent appears to have provoked an unexpectedly negative response, then rather than leaving it festering on the recipient's device forever I can just delete it and it disappears for all participants.
Obviously that can't work if the recipient has already backed up their decrypted copy somewhere outside the Keybase chat client, but that requires deliberate per-message action and doesn't usually happen. This is excellent insurance against constantly having to deal with the kind of nonsense that you and your friend are currently working your way through.
Please excuse me now; I've just spotted six more clouds I need to yell at. You're welcome to keep using the lawn, though. It's quite nice, what with the chamomile and all. And the belt onions are hanging up there in the back porch if you'd like to take one with you when you go.
posted by flabdablet at 1:53 PM on August 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
I agree with everyone else who advises you to postpone the call. I don't think much useful can get resolved when you're still in the headspace of "he said this, and then I said this, and then he said this, and I said THIS" -- in a little while, the acute sting of the specifics will fade. If you talk then, you'll be more likely to address whatever's really going on (and I agree that he sounds super-stressed, and projecting that onto you), rather than relitigating word choice and other niggly details, which can happen when you try to process a fight too soon.
posted by attentionplease at 2:03 PM on August 26, 2021
posted by attentionplease at 2:03 PM on August 26, 2021
I’m also kicking myself because I’ve had some experience in moving from city to city, and in my experience, it is *not* a good idea to make a major move to a different city without having a job first.
Since you know this, I suspect you know that Robert is currently stressed out of his ever-loving gourd.
Other people have suggested a practical path forward but in general I would suggest patience, compassion, and a determination not to judge him at his worst. There may come a day when you need some leeway too.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:11 PM on August 26, 2021
Since you know this, I suspect you know that Robert is currently stressed out of his ever-loving gourd.
Other people have suggested a practical path forward but in general I would suggest patience, compassion, and a determination not to judge him at his worst. There may come a day when you need some leeway too.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:11 PM on August 26, 2021
he somehow thinks you promised him a job and then jerked him around by not following through and/or by exaggerating your own abilities to get him this job. this is not reasonable for anyone who A. was clear that you don't even personally work at the company in question and B. has had a job before.
The fact that your brother (who is not you! who cannot responsibly just give a job to some guy he doesn't know because he's friends with a relative, even if he had the power to, which it sounds like he doesn't!) doesn't even work in the office where this guy wants to work and it sounds like he isn't even someone who does the hiring anyway -- if it is at all possible that you didn't fully explain this chain of tenuous work relationships to your friend, MAYBE you have something to be sorry for. but not a lot.
I used to work somewhere that encouraged recommendations & recruitment, and I did actually get a friend a job there, and it was a stressful nightmare because said friend was not any good at the job and not only did it reflect badly on me, it hurt any more competent friends whom I might have wished to recommend, because my word was no longer automatically good with my bosses. yeah, you want to help people out, yeah, meritocracy is a fake idea. but telling people you have an in somewhere, or that you know a guy who knows a guy, is just fraught with peril for all sorts of reasons. all this kind of networking has ever done for me on the receiving end is get my hopes up & make me feel bad (because you have to tell the person who put you forward that they still didn't hire you.)
anyway he's still being absurd & entitled. only apologize if you think you might have genuinely misled him about what you could do for him. ideally you could explain to him how this kind of thing works, and that even if somebody with connections does someday promise to get him a job, you never count on that. but if he is not receptive, you can't make him listen. he does owe you an apology whether you got "pissy" with him or not.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:43 PM on August 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
The fact that your brother (who is not you! who cannot responsibly just give a job to some guy he doesn't know because he's friends with a relative, even if he had the power to, which it sounds like he doesn't!) doesn't even work in the office where this guy wants to work and it sounds like he isn't even someone who does the hiring anyway -- if it is at all possible that you didn't fully explain this chain of tenuous work relationships to your friend, MAYBE you have something to be sorry for. but not a lot.
I used to work somewhere that encouraged recommendations & recruitment, and I did actually get a friend a job there, and it was a stressful nightmare because said friend was not any good at the job and not only did it reflect badly on me, it hurt any more competent friends whom I might have wished to recommend, because my word was no longer automatically good with my bosses. yeah, you want to help people out, yeah, meritocracy is a fake idea. but telling people you have an in somewhere, or that you know a guy who knows a guy, is just fraught with peril for all sorts of reasons. all this kind of networking has ever done for me on the receiving end is get my hopes up & make me feel bad (because you have to tell the person who put you forward that they still didn't hire you.)
anyway he's still being absurd & entitled. only apologize if you think you might have genuinely misled him about what you could do for him. ideally you could explain to him how this kind of thing works, and that even if somebody with connections does someday promise to get him a job, you never count on that. but if he is not receptive, you can't make him listen. he does owe you an apology whether you got "pissy" with him or not.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:43 PM on August 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
From this anecdote, you sound like me. You cherish your friends; you want to solve their problems for them, you don’t want to offend them, and when they break your heart (say, by moving away), you still just want to make them happy. You don’t want them to abandon you. You have so much love in your heart. Yes?
And Robert sounds…a little bit self-involved, and very green to the whole job-networking/handling-his-own-life thing. Also yes? I know people who never outgrew being like this — they tend to take a passive approach to their own lives, and then, when nothing happens, they tend to turn passive-aggressive on whoever they were counting on to Make Something Happen! for them. Same fear of abandonment or rejection, but…less altruistic. Less focused on loving others.
I don’t mean to sound unsympathetic to Robert — job searching and home-hunting are both exhausting, dispiriting, demoralizing processes. Some days you just hit a wall with it, and you need a breather. No one can be proactive and plucky all the time.
But I’m truly getting the sense that Robert isn’t especially proactive, ever. I’m sensing he relies on other people to provide the pluck. He asked his old employer to let him go remote, and they said no, so rather than take the initiative to find a job at his destination, he just decided to…wing it. His relationship with his sister is rocky, and yet he’s crashing at her place. Getting his own would require taking initiative. Risking rejection. Plotting his own course.
It is easier, in the short term for him to blame everyone else. Home life sucks? It’s his sister’s fault (as if normal people would be happy to put up an adult sibling indefinitely). He can’t find a job? It’s your fault for saying you’d try to connect him with one possible lead (as if most of us would think that meant we were guaranteed any follow-up at all, let alone a good chance of employment).
That short-term ease is just a loan, though, and it comes at a high interest rate. He knows this, deep down, but it scares him, so he deflects.
I have a few of these types in my life now; I used to have many more, but then I started setting boundaries. A few of them really did blow up at me when one day I set some sort of boundary, e.g.,
I’ll give this person your info and they can contact you if they’re interested, but I can’t play envoy and facilitate communication between you
I will listen to your feelings about this career/relationship/baby/body/car/house you want, but I can’t play cheerleader on command for an obsession/fantasy you aren’t willing to work towards achieving
I will send you the instructions to perform this task that is essential to your job, but I cannot keep coming to your desk and walking you through the same process, step-by-step
If this sounds like a wider pattern with Robert, my best advice is to set the boundary now. I often waited too long with my Roberts, and they were blindsided. People who drift in life tend to be insecure about it; that’s why they tend to get defensive when someone asks them to take a long-awaited turn at the wheel.
If Robert does freeze you out over this, it will not be because you were disloyal, or a bad friend. It will be because he doesn’t want to face himself.
posted by armeowda at 5:18 PM on August 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
And Robert sounds…a little bit self-involved, and very green to the whole job-networking/handling-his-own-life thing. Also yes? I know people who never outgrew being like this — they tend to take a passive approach to their own lives, and then, when nothing happens, they tend to turn passive-aggressive on whoever they were counting on to Make Something Happen! for them. Same fear of abandonment or rejection, but…less altruistic. Less focused on loving others.
I don’t mean to sound unsympathetic to Robert — job searching and home-hunting are both exhausting, dispiriting, demoralizing processes. Some days you just hit a wall with it, and you need a breather. No one can be proactive and plucky all the time.
But I’m truly getting the sense that Robert isn’t especially proactive, ever. I’m sensing he relies on other people to provide the pluck. He asked his old employer to let him go remote, and they said no, so rather than take the initiative to find a job at his destination, he just decided to…wing it. His relationship with his sister is rocky, and yet he’s crashing at her place. Getting his own would require taking initiative. Risking rejection. Plotting his own course.
It is easier, in the short term for him to blame everyone else. Home life sucks? It’s his sister’s fault (as if normal people would be happy to put up an adult sibling indefinitely). He can’t find a job? It’s your fault for saying you’d try to connect him with one possible lead (as if most of us would think that meant we were guaranteed any follow-up at all, let alone a good chance of employment).
That short-term ease is just a loan, though, and it comes at a high interest rate. He knows this, deep down, but it scares him, so he deflects.
I have a few of these types in my life now; I used to have many more, but then I started setting boundaries. A few of them really did blow up at me when one day I set some sort of boundary, e.g.,
I’ll give this person your info and they can contact you if they’re interested, but I can’t play envoy and facilitate communication between you
I will listen to your feelings about this career/relationship/baby/body/car/house you want, but I can’t play cheerleader on command for an obsession/fantasy you aren’t willing to work towards achieving
I will send you the instructions to perform this task that is essential to your job, but I cannot keep coming to your desk and walking you through the same process, step-by-step
If this sounds like a wider pattern with Robert, my best advice is to set the boundary now. I often waited too long with my Roberts, and they were blindsided. People who drift in life tend to be insecure about it; that’s why they tend to get defensive when someone asks them to take a long-awaited turn at the wheel.
If Robert does freeze you out over this, it will not be because you were disloyal, or a bad friend. It will be because he doesn’t want to face himself.
posted by armeowda at 5:18 PM on August 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
He said I was getting “pissy” with him
This alone would be worth ending the friendship over in my opinion, especially if you identify as female. Also:
I’m human and I fucked up. If you want to glean from that that I don’t really care about you, then I’m not sure what to say.
is a horrific attempt at an apology. I would suggest at the minimum not texting or calling him unless it's him contacting you with a real apology.
posted by mundo at 5:32 PM on August 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
This alone would be worth ending the friendship over in my opinion, especially if you identify as female. Also:
I’m human and I fucked up. If you want to glean from that that I don’t really care about you, then I’m not sure what to say.
is a horrific attempt at an apology. I would suggest at the minimum not texting or calling him unless it's him contacting you with a real apology.
posted by mundo at 5:32 PM on August 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
mundo, the apology you quote is from the asker, not Robert.
posted by sagc at 5:35 PM on August 26, 2021
posted by sagc at 5:35 PM on August 26, 2021
I hope that Robert is young because his profound misunderstanding about how to get a job is concerning. He seems to be under the impression that you are the one who can get him his dream job through your brother's connection and he's being very passive in taking responsibility for himself.
It sounds like he moved hastily and didn't set himself up very well and is now jobless and doesn't have his own place and is now too close to the family because he's in his sister's house and it's stressful. But, instead of taking responsibility for himself and his unhappiness with how he did things, he's throwing it all in your lap. That's really not a reasonable way to treat a friend, especially one who has already passed your resume along and who has been checking in with him. He owes you an apology for how awful his behavior has been. Him being unhappy is not a good enough reason to say terrible things to you and lash out with misdirected frustration and anger. It's unreasonable for him to expect that you make his job search a priority over your own stressful life events and new job. His life choices are not a group project.
Your response to this situation is fine. And, you had no obligation to give him unsolicited advice. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's much harder to move to a new city without a new job. You don't have to handhold him through life's basics especially when he hasn't asked for advice or help.
posted by quince at 5:45 PM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
It sounds like he moved hastily and didn't set himself up very well and is now jobless and doesn't have his own place and is now too close to the family because he's in his sister's house and it's stressful. But, instead of taking responsibility for himself and his unhappiness with how he did things, he's throwing it all in your lap. That's really not a reasonable way to treat a friend, especially one who has already passed your resume along and who has been checking in with him. He owes you an apology for how awful his behavior has been. Him being unhappy is not a good enough reason to say terrible things to you and lash out with misdirected frustration and anger. It's unreasonable for him to expect that you make his job search a priority over your own stressful life events and new job. His life choices are not a group project.
Your response to this situation is fine. And, you had no obligation to give him unsolicited advice. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's much harder to move to a new city without a new job. You don't have to handhold him through life's basics especially when he hasn't asked for advice or help.
posted by quince at 5:45 PM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
I understand he must be stressed about not having a job but frankly, Robert sounds passive aggressive, immature, and self-absorbed. Did he ask what stressful stuff YOU had going on that made you distracted?
posted by fourpotatoes at 6:58 PM on August 26, 2021
posted by fourpotatoes at 6:58 PM on August 26, 2021
Yeah, sounds like the guy is stressed out, scared, and maybe a bit isolated. He's unemployed, in a. new city, living with his sister in a pandemic. Your tentative lead took on more importance in his mind than you could have predicted, and he took his fear and disappointment out on you. His behaviour was a bit over-the-top and passive-aggressive, but many of us have acted that way at some point in our lives.
Others have given good advice on how to give him some space and time to come around. I think this is the way to go if your friendship is basically solid and you want to keep this person in your life. But, if this kind of thing happens on the regular, and especially if he never acknowledges his part in it, you might want to think about how much space you want to give his guy in your life.
posted by rpfields at 7:40 PM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Others have given good advice on how to give him some space and time to come around. I think this is the way to go if your friendship is basically solid and you want to keep this person in your life. But, if this kind of thing happens on the regular, and especially if he never acknowledges his part in it, you might want to think about how much space you want to give his guy in your life.
posted by rpfields at 7:40 PM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: We are, alas, not young, or at least not as young as 20s. Part of it, I guess, is that Robert has spent a lot of his working life in non-office settings, so I suppose isn't really accustomed to job-hunting in more formal settings.
I'm inclined to agree with the suggestions that I postpone the call; I find unresolved situations like this extremely anxiety-provoking so that was my attempt to deal with the anxiety, I guess. But yeah, I now agree that it's best to let things settle a bit before any processing goes on.
I really appreciate all the answers and perspectives, thank you.
posted by O Sock My Sock at 10:25 PM on August 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm inclined to agree with the suggestions that I postpone the call; I find unresolved situations like this extremely anxiety-provoking so that was my attempt to deal with the anxiety, I guess. But yeah, I now agree that it's best to let things settle a bit before any processing goes on.
I really appreciate all the answers and perspectives, thank you.
posted by O Sock My Sock at 10:25 PM on August 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Robert is stressed about being unemployed in a new city and is taking it out on you, a person who has no obligation or even really any ability to secure him a new job.
I think that once he's inevitably had more than 40 or 50 or 100 rejections after job interviews he'll get perspective on the job hunt - it's sad but true. In my experience you should never rely on a friend of a friend connection.
You don't need to be present while he's angry and criticizing you. If you want to tell him that you won't be there you'd be setting a boundary, but even if you don't give him that boundary, excuse yourself from your interaction with him whenever you're uncomfortable.
posted by bendy at 10:32 PM on August 26, 2021
I think that once he's inevitably had more than 40 or 50 or 100 rejections after job interviews he'll get perspective on the job hunt - it's sad but true. In my experience you should never rely on a friend of a friend connection.
You don't need to be present while he's angry and criticizing you. If you want to tell him that you won't be there you'd be setting a boundary, but even if you don't give him that boundary, excuse yourself from your interaction with him whenever you're uncomfortable.
posted by bendy at 10:32 PM on August 26, 2021
Response by poster: Update for anyone interested: I texted Robert this morning, using trig’s script (ok, well, I actually cut and pasted it except I changed “Friday” to “today”). He said that yes, it would be better to talk in a few days and he would let me know when was a good time. So, that worked out. Thanks again, and special thanks to trig.
posted by O Sock My Sock at 9:13 AM on August 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by O Sock My Sock at 9:13 AM on August 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
Oh, good. I hope things work out well for all of you. None of this is easy.
posted by trig at 12:03 PM on August 27, 2021
posted by trig at 12:03 PM on August 27, 2021
If Robert is under the impression that your connection is his employment lifeline and THIS is how he treats you, we’ll, he’s really screwed then. Now from the sound of it, I don’t think you or your brother have any pull whatsoever in getting Robert a job but Robert clearly is under the impression that you do which is why it makes how he’s treating you even more disappointing. I get that he’s desperate but it doesn’t excuse his attitude towards you. And honestly, your ‘following up’ with your brother or not isn’t going to magically make a job appear for him. Trust me, if his CV was that exceptional, he’d have heard back already.
TL;DR: Robert needs to grow the heck up. He’s lucky you’re still willing to talk to him.
posted by Jubey at 9:26 PM on August 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
TL;DR: Robert needs to grow the heck up. He’s lucky you’re still willing to talk to him.
posted by Jubey at 9:26 PM on August 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Sooooo….how did things end up going?
posted by Jubey at 3:26 AM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Jubey at 3:26 AM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Jubey, thanks for asking. We wound up speaking perhaps a week later and more or less smoothed things out. I reminded him that my brother didn't work in the Dallas office, and he said something to the effect of, “Oh, that's right, you did mention to me once that your brother lived in Connecticut” and he conceded that he had misunderstood the situation. During the course of the conversation, I also told him that I regretted not giving him my opinion that shouldn’t move until he had a job, and he said he appreciated that, but wouldn't have listened even if I had.
I have to admit I wasn’t totally satisfied, as he never apologized for being nasty to me and I had come to believe, after thinking it over and reading the responses here, that he owed me an apology. But I don’t believe in demanding apologies, and I can live with the situation. Robert still doesn’t have a job, btw, but he sold some stuff and got a bit of money that way, so that helped.
posted by O Sock My Sock at 5:26 PM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have to admit I wasn’t totally satisfied, as he never apologized for being nasty to me and I had come to believe, after thinking it over and reading the responses here, that he owed me an apology. But I don’t believe in demanding apologies, and I can live with the situation. Robert still doesn’t have a job, btw, but he sold some stuff and got a bit of money that way, so that helped.
posted by O Sock My Sock at 5:26 PM on October 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I suspect that Robert actually has deep-down realized that maybe he should have lined up a job before moving, and he's panicking a little and that's making him lash out. But at the same time, I wouldn't DREAM of saying this to him; let him be the one to say it to YOU. When people are in a panicky mental state, they aren't quite in the right headspace to properly process "here's what I think you're really feeling" kinds of comments, even if they are accurate. It's the kind of thing that you kind of have to realize on your own, you know?
I would keep your upcoming conversation focused on things that you did or didn't do, as opposed to speculating on emotional motivation. So - yes, you didn't follow up with your brother at the exact schedule he'd hoped you did. But a) you were legitimately distracted by starting your own job, and b) Robert did say that you could wait until your brother got back from a vacation.
You forgot, these things happen. It wasn't exactly fair for Robert to assume that you didn't care about him - you have your own shit to worry about. But it is also understandable that Robert is freaking out a little bit right now if he is still unemployed and living with his sister who he has a lukewarm relationship with. So he may not really be in a good headspace right now.
So how I would handle this is "look, I'm sorry things got to the point that they did and we were blowing up at each other. My hunch is that you're really stressed out right now, though, so I get it. I am too, though, and I did get your resume to my brother when you reminded me. I'm sorry that you had to remind me, nevertheless; and I'm sorry if that added to the stress. I swear that it isn't because I didn't care, though, because I do. In fact, have you heard from the company yet?"
I hope I'm making that clear? You're focusing on the memory lapse with passing on the resume, you're gently letting him know that maybe he wasn't 100% fair to you when he blew up, but you're at the same time letting him know that "but I think I get why you weren't at your best and I'm cool with that" and you're then going on to confirm that you do care about him by asking for a status update about his job hunt.
If he continues to take it out on you during this call, I would back off altogether - "whoa. Okay, look, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I kind of think this really isn't the best time for us to be having this conversation after all, let's table things for a while." And then you back off for a week instead of a day. If he calls you sooner, great, but don't you reach out before then. I actually kind of think you reaching out after a day to say "should we talk" was premature, frankly.
And finally - I do not get the impression Robert is "done with you" over this. I had a similar blow-up with a friend a while back when neither of us was in our best headspace and had a hissy fit like this, and when I was rehashing the conversation later with my roommate, he said something that I could say to you almost verbatim: "number one, that seems really unlikely for someone who seemed to be as gregarious a friend with you as he was, so I think this is your own insecurity talking right now; and moreover, I bet he realizes he wasn't being fair and is actually a little embarrassed himself right now. Number two, if he really is done with you over this, then he's a massive dick and that says more about him than about anything you did."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:34 AM on August 26, 2021 [25 favorites]