Getting Six Weeks Notice?
July 31, 2021 5:03 PM Subscribe
I'm a leaseholder-renter in an apartment with two spaces for rent — one for a roommate, one for a self-contained WFH office. Relocation, new mates or jobs, etc. mean that I end up having to rerent one or the other space practically every year. I've developed a set approach to doing this, which gets me good renters whom I like, and vice-versa. But when they decide to move, most of them forget that I requested six weeks notice, and only give me a month's notice instead. Practically speaking, a month is not a whole month. Typically, most replacement renters only actively seek space for the first 2-3 weeks of the month, and by the last week or 10 days, they've either found something or are waiting till the next month. That means if I don't succeed in rerenting a space in that relatively short window, I have to pay rent on two spaces, rather than just my own. (This is where all my savings went during the pandemic.) Can you help me think out ways to get six weeks notice instead?
I should say I've been on both sides of the equation within recent history: leaseholder-renter and roommate-renter. As roommate-renter, I would never consider places with a roommate lease. I also walked away from places with a million rules.
On the flip side, I don't want to use a lease with my roommates, and I don't really have any rules at all. I seek considerate, smart, responsible types, who keep shared spaces neat, pay their rent on time, and don't cover their rooms in grafitti. To that end, I have great pictures of the apartment, and I show it very clean and neat in a way that matches the photos and illustrates that this is a grown-up apartment worth the market-rate rent.
But cleaning on so little notice is a problem too. As it turns out my last two roommate-renters never cleaned their rooms or bathrooms, possibly ever. The bathroom tub, therefore, was full of mold, the curtains in their room were dirty, the woodwork dusty, and so on. The attached garden (exclusively theirs) usually needs lots of attention too — and I'm getting a little too old for this kind of mad dash.
Please don't discuss my moving into a single (not going to happen) or using leases (also not going to happen). Note also that practically speaking it's tough to talk too much about the end at the beginning when oral agreements are being made. All that said, I've reached a point where I want to take money out of deposits if folks can't give me a workable amount of notice. So my question is: How do I do that? What script do I use?
I should say I've been on both sides of the equation within recent history: leaseholder-renter and roommate-renter. As roommate-renter, I would never consider places with a roommate lease. I also walked away from places with a million rules.
On the flip side, I don't want to use a lease with my roommates, and I don't really have any rules at all. I seek considerate, smart, responsible types, who keep shared spaces neat, pay their rent on time, and don't cover their rooms in grafitti. To that end, I have great pictures of the apartment, and I show it very clean and neat in a way that matches the photos and illustrates that this is a grown-up apartment worth the market-rate rent.
But cleaning on so little notice is a problem too. As it turns out my last two roommate-renters never cleaned their rooms or bathrooms, possibly ever. The bathroom tub, therefore, was full of mold, the curtains in their room were dirty, the woodwork dusty, and so on. The attached garden (exclusively theirs) usually needs lots of attention too — and I'm getting a little too old for this kind of mad dash.
Please don't discuss my moving into a single (not going to happen) or using leases (also not going to happen). Note also that practically speaking it's tough to talk too much about the end at the beginning when oral agreements are being made. All that said, I've reached a point where I want to take money out of deposits if folks can't give me a workable amount of notice. So my question is: How do I do that? What script do I use?
I've reached a point where I want to take money out of deposits if folks can't give me a workable amount of notice.
Before you do anything you need to find out what your legal obligations are to the people that you're renting to. This could be illegal. There are laws governing what can be taken out of a deposit and what kind of notice can be required; you should be familiar with them before you reach the point where you're asking "how" you can take people's deposit money.
In some jurisdictions, it's legal to require more than 30 days notice and to withhold some of the deposit of no notice is given. This might depend on whether the tenant has signed a lease (e.g. agreed to longer notice period) or has not (e.g. is governed only by whatever laws cover month-to-month tenants).
"Oral agreements" often end up legally binding in theory but not in practice. It's difficult to prove who's telling the truth, and if your reason for avoiding a lease document is that you're trying to fly under the radar with your sublet situation, you don't have much recourse because they can raise a stink and get you in trouble.
30 days notice for a month-to-month tenant is quite fair, fwiw.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:29 PM on July 31, 2021 [11 favorites]
Before you do anything you need to find out what your legal obligations are to the people that you're renting to. This could be illegal. There are laws governing what can be taken out of a deposit and what kind of notice can be required; you should be familiar with them before you reach the point where you're asking "how" you can take people's deposit money.
In some jurisdictions, it's legal to require more than 30 days notice and to withhold some of the deposit of no notice is given. This might depend on whether the tenant has signed a lease (e.g. agreed to longer notice period) or has not (e.g. is governed only by whatever laws cover month-to-month tenants).
"Oral agreements" often end up legally binding in theory but not in practice. It's difficult to prove who's telling the truth, and if your reason for avoiding a lease document is that you're trying to fly under the radar with your sublet situation, you don't have much recourse because they can raise a stink and get you in trouble.
30 days notice for a month-to-month tenant is quite fair, fwiw.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:29 PM on July 31, 2021 [11 favorites]
> Could you require last month’s “rent” in your initial verbal agreement, such that if they ducked out early, you’d have that period covered
I'd suggest making a written record of the agreement for both parties to keep expectations clear.
This way of framing it has the possible downside that a roommate renter thinks "well, $landlord-roommate has already got my cash deposit to cover the the last month's rent" so they might feel it is fine to leave without giving you much notice and without paying the last month's rent (since you've already got that cash deposit). So you don't end up getting any cash in lieu of notice.
Another possible solution to this is instead of smoothing over the cashflow bumps with a longer notice period, smooth over the cashflow bumps with cash. Consider how short stay businesses like hotels or airbnb work. Charge higher prices in return for the valuable flexibility you offer. E.g. if on average your roommate renters stay about 12 months and leave you paying double rent for 1.5 months after they depart with limited notice, raise your prices from 1x month's rent a month 1.125x months rent a month. You could even offer the option of a monthly rent decrease after they've stayed at least $blah >= 12 months if you think might be a kind thing to do / if you think it might incentivize longer term rentals and produce less work for you.
posted by are-coral-made at 5:35 PM on July 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'd suggest making a written record of the agreement for both parties to keep expectations clear.
This way of framing it has the possible downside that a roommate renter thinks "well, $landlord-roommate has already got my cash deposit to cover the the last month's rent" so they might feel it is fine to leave without giving you much notice and without paying the last month's rent (since you've already got that cash deposit). So you don't end up getting any cash in lieu of notice.
Another possible solution to this is instead of smoothing over the cashflow bumps with a longer notice period, smooth over the cashflow bumps with cash. Consider how short stay businesses like hotels or airbnb work. Charge higher prices in return for the valuable flexibility you offer. E.g. if on average your roommate renters stay about 12 months and leave you paying double rent for 1.5 months after they depart with limited notice, raise your prices from 1x month's rent a month 1.125x months rent a month. You could even offer the option of a monthly rent decrease after they've stayed at least $blah >= 12 months if you think might be a kind thing to do / if you think it might incentivize longer term rentals and produce less work for you.
posted by are-coral-made at 5:35 PM on July 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
Yeah can you charge say 10% more for the room and use that to cover the vacancy? Heck, if you did that you could even offer to give your roommates a rebate if they give you the requested six weeks notice.
posted by mskyle at 5:53 PM on July 31, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by mskyle at 5:53 PM on July 31, 2021 [15 favorites]
I think it depends on your area, but given the state of things nowadays, couldn't you use a "pre-cleaning" clause for future folks? That is, a deposit for cleaning should things go awry? So you're the main leaseholder for this place, yes? Get a hefty deposit for future sub-letters, just in case they decide they don't want to clean the bathroom. Rent is $500 a month, cleaning deposit is $100. You pay a cleaner $100 to clean their bathroom when they move out, and don't give it back to them.
Just a thought.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 5:58 PM on July 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
Just a thought.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 5:58 PM on July 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
Just as a note, most jurisdictions have laws that effectively create a lease, even if you don't write one yourself. So whatever solution you decide on needs to fit within those legal boundaries.
The simplest thing to do is the afore suggested raising of the rent on the assumption that it's going to keep happening. If they do end up abiding by the terms, you can always refund that extra portion.
posted by Candleman at 6:12 PM on July 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
The simplest thing to do is the afore suggested raising of the rent on the assumption that it's going to keep happening. If they do end up abiding by the terms, you can always refund that extra portion.
posted by Candleman at 6:12 PM on July 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't really have any rules at all. I seek considerate, smart, responsible types, who keep shared spaces neat, pay their rent on time, and don't cover their rooms in grafitti.
my last two roommate-renters never cleaned their rooms or bathrooms, possibly ever. The bathroom tub, therefore, was full of mold, the curtains in their room were dirty, the woodwork dusty, and so on.
So I guess the considerate, responsible selection criteria aren’t being met. Upkeep of the personal space is part of adulting and is typically encouraged by written agreement, that is enforceable, and stipulates that cleaning and garden maintenance are their responsibility and failure to do so will mean costs coming out of their deposit. Or whatever the local jurisdiction requires in the circumstances.
As you are adamant you don’t want to do that the only other way to minimise your losses in time and money is to factor the cost for cleaning, gardening and half a month rent into what you charge them. That way, you can call in a cleaner and somebody to clear the garden and can focus your efforts on finding a replacement tenant.
posted by koahiatamadl at 6:22 PM on July 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
my last two roommate-renters never cleaned their rooms or bathrooms, possibly ever. The bathroom tub, therefore, was full of mold, the curtains in their room were dirty, the woodwork dusty, and so on.
So I guess the considerate, responsible selection criteria aren’t being met. Upkeep of the personal space is part of adulting and is typically encouraged by written agreement, that is enforceable, and stipulates that cleaning and garden maintenance are their responsibility and failure to do so will mean costs coming out of their deposit. Or whatever the local jurisdiction requires in the circumstances.
As you are adamant you don’t want to do that the only other way to minimise your losses in time and money is to factor the cost for cleaning, gardening and half a month rent into what you charge them. That way, you can call in a cleaner and somebody to clear the garden and can focus your efforts on finding a replacement tenant.
posted by koahiatamadl at 6:22 PM on July 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
Have them pay the last six weeks in advance. Once they give you notice, they stop paying rent and you can have someone move in six weeks later. Nothing to discuss, write down, or remember.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:39 PM on July 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:39 PM on July 31, 2021 [6 favorites]
Is 6 weeks notice legal where you are, or do local laws not allow more than 1 more requirement?
If it's legal, can you check with a lawyer if the renters can have them sign an additional form that says "I understand that I have to give a 6 weeks notice (not 1 month) and failure to do so will result in _____"?
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 8:10 PM on July 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
If it's legal, can you check with a lawyer if the renters can have them sign an additional form that says "I understand that I have to give a 6 weeks notice (not 1 month) and failure to do so will result in _____"?
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 8:10 PM on July 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don’t know where you’re located, but if you’re in the US it looks like there is no state that allows you to require a tenant to give more than 30 days notice on a month-to-month lease. Month-to-month on an oral agreement sounds like it’s basically what you’re doing.
A lot of states also have restrictions on cleaning fees or the amount that can be taken from a security deposit for cleaning rather than damage. I agree with others that your best course would be to set a rent that would cover a professional cleaning after move-out, and assume that is what you’ll be doing every time.
Also, I don’t know if these rooms are furnished, but if not just remove the curtains - expecting tenants to launder them is probably unrealistic. Let them buy their own curtains and take them when they leave. If they are furnished, maybe switch to blinds that are easier to clean/harder to get dirty.
posted by Kriesa at 5:17 AM on August 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
A lot of states also have restrictions on cleaning fees or the amount that can be taken from a security deposit for cleaning rather than damage. I agree with others that your best course would be to set a rent that would cover a professional cleaning after move-out, and assume that is what you’ll be doing every time.
Also, I don’t know if these rooms are furnished, but if not just remove the curtains - expecting tenants to launder them is probably unrealistic. Let them buy their own curtains and take them when they leave. If they are furnished, maybe switch to blinds that are easier to clean/harder to get dirty.
posted by Kriesa at 5:17 AM on August 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Can you ask a moderator to indicate which country and region you are in? That would allow people to give you more helpful answers. Consider raising the rent, if that is possible, and including a cleaning service as part of that. I’m not suggesting that you do the cleaning, but that you hire a service that comes in to clean those places that your housemates are not cleaning. Just a thought. Good luck.
posted by Bella Donna at 6:27 AM on August 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 6:27 AM on August 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah can you charge say 10% more for the room and use that to cover the vacancy?
Where I live it's not legal to charge more than the proportionate amount for the space based on the total rent that you pay. And yeah, you should start by figuring out how much notice is legally required and how to legally sublet in general (like others said, laws apply even if your subletter is not signing a lease, and your own lease may have other requirements).
posted by pinochiette at 6:56 AM on August 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Where I live it's not legal to charge more than the proportionate amount for the space based on the total rent that you pay. And yeah, you should start by figuring out how much notice is legally required and how to legally sublet in general (like others said, laws apply even if your subletter is not signing a lease, and your own lease may have other requirements).
posted by pinochiette at 6:56 AM on August 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
All that said, I've reached a point where I want to take money out of deposits if folks can't give me a workable amount of notice. So my question is: How do I do that? What script do I use?
So I think the best thing for you to do here is understand that in the absence of a lease, there are state laws that regulate your rental as a tenancy-at-will or month-to-month tenancy. You do not just get to make up your own rules, so you need to understand your tenants' rights, which are 30 days notice everywhere except Delaware and North Carolina.
You can withold cleaning from the deposit but you have to actually pay a cleaning service to do that in most jurisdictions. It is very easy to end up in small claims court over this so make sure you are following the law.
As a landlord, which is what you are even if you're subletting these spaces to renters (legally or illegally), you need to plan for turnover months. The idea that they'll be continuously rented isn't feasible. Increase the rent by 12% to cover the vacant months if that's what you need to do.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:42 AM on August 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
So I think the best thing for you to do here is understand that in the absence of a lease, there are state laws that regulate your rental as a tenancy-at-will or month-to-month tenancy. You do not just get to make up your own rules, so you need to understand your tenants' rights, which are 30 days notice everywhere except Delaware and North Carolina.
You can withold cleaning from the deposit but you have to actually pay a cleaning service to do that in most jurisdictions. It is very easy to end up in small claims court over this so make sure you are following the law.
As a landlord, which is what you are even if you're subletting these spaces to renters (legally or illegally), you need to plan for turnover months. The idea that they'll be continuously rented isn't feasible. Increase the rent by 12% to cover the vacant months if that's what you need to do.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:42 AM on August 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
Honestly, I actually wrote up a lease when my kid's partner moved in with them before they were married (I owned my kid's house, and charged their partner a pittance, but it made things less of an imposition for all involved--plus it gave my kid's partner rights he wouldn't have as the informal occupant.). A lease is what makes it possible for people to be civil to one another, and to be able to get out of a situation when it no longer works for both parties--by pointing to the requirements of the lease. So, for instance, you can say, "Oh, the lease says six weeks notice," when they say they're out in a month. Also, as I said above, using a lease gives your renters some rights, not just you.
[n.b. I signed the house over to the kid when they got married and tore up the lease agreement.]
posted by Peach at 11:00 AM on August 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
[n.b. I signed the house over to the kid when they got married and tore up the lease agreement.]
posted by Peach at 11:00 AM on August 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
« Older Please suggest some delicious mini-dinner combos | Help me dispose of my garbage-level ignorance Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
In my area, your options are a lease or prayers to a higher power.
Could you require last month’s “rent” in your initial verbal agreement, such that if they ducked out early, you’d have that period covered?
posted by OrangeVelour at 5:19 PM on July 31, 2021 [6 favorites]