I want another child, spouse doesn’t. What to do now?
June 28, 2021 2:12 PM Subscribe
Have you moved beyond resentment and disappointment in a marriage? My spouse and I are going back and forth about having a second child. I want another one, spouse doesn’t. I am concerned this will develop into resentment that will be the demise of our marriage. Details below.
We are both nearly 40 and had fertility treatment for our first. We have one embryo remaining from that cycle and I would want to try for pregnancy with that embryo before the gestational spouse is 40. Because of our previous infertility, it is very clear to me that the chance of a second baby is low, but I am concerned I will regret it, and always wonder, and resent my spouse, if we don’t try with the remaining embryo. I of course also don’t want to bring a child into the world who isn’t wanted and loved so would not (and could not) attempt a second pregnancy without spouses’s consent. So the default in this agreement is to not try again and “concede” to my spouse’s wishes. For Reasons pertaining to our infertility, we are not able to “try naturally.” Before we had our first child, we never set a number that we would “like” to have, though I always thought I would want two and spouse was “open” to different numbers.
Our child is wonderful. Spouse and I have had a long relationship with good communication and support for each other, and lots of love, though the past few years have been stressful with infertility, pandemic, parenting, etc. Pregnancy was relatively easy for the gestational spouse and our child was a happy and “easy” baby. The gestational parent did have some mild postpartum depression but recovered well with talk therapy. Financially we are not well-off but able to afford a second child. I think we are reasonably good parents and have a happy child. If we were to try with the remaining embryo and fail, I would not want any further treatment and would consider our family complete. But because we have the embryo, I feel I will always regret not trying. I don’t know if this will fade with time or simmer and bubble over. Right now, after months of back and forth, and my spouse has said they do not want to try for another, I feel very upset and don’t know how I will feel when the disappointment settles. In a way, it feels like it’s already blown up. But I can’t imagine getting divorced and not seeing my child every day. But simultaneously I don’t know how I can move past my disappointment and resentment.
I am familiar with Gottman and the idea that resentment can ruin a relationship. Our situation is complicated by the fact that we are from different countries and living in yet a third country, which would make any divorce or shared custody situation very challenging as we would likely want to be near one family or the other.
I know that we are not alone in having experienced this. I would like to know if you have experienced anything similar and how you approached and got through it (or didn’t). Thank you.
Anon email for responses, if preferred: anonmefithrowaway@gmail.com
We are both nearly 40 and had fertility treatment for our first. We have one embryo remaining from that cycle and I would want to try for pregnancy with that embryo before the gestational spouse is 40. Because of our previous infertility, it is very clear to me that the chance of a second baby is low, but I am concerned I will regret it, and always wonder, and resent my spouse, if we don’t try with the remaining embryo. I of course also don’t want to bring a child into the world who isn’t wanted and loved so would not (and could not) attempt a second pregnancy without spouses’s consent. So the default in this agreement is to not try again and “concede” to my spouse’s wishes. For Reasons pertaining to our infertility, we are not able to “try naturally.” Before we had our first child, we never set a number that we would “like” to have, though I always thought I would want two and spouse was “open” to different numbers.
Our child is wonderful. Spouse and I have had a long relationship with good communication and support for each other, and lots of love, though the past few years have been stressful with infertility, pandemic, parenting, etc. Pregnancy was relatively easy for the gestational spouse and our child was a happy and “easy” baby. The gestational parent did have some mild postpartum depression but recovered well with talk therapy. Financially we are not well-off but able to afford a second child. I think we are reasonably good parents and have a happy child. If we were to try with the remaining embryo and fail, I would not want any further treatment and would consider our family complete. But because we have the embryo, I feel I will always regret not trying. I don’t know if this will fade with time or simmer and bubble over. Right now, after months of back and forth, and my spouse has said they do not want to try for another, I feel very upset and don’t know how I will feel when the disappointment settles. In a way, it feels like it’s already blown up. But I can’t imagine getting divorced and not seeing my child every day. But simultaneously I don’t know how I can move past my disappointment and resentment.
I am familiar with Gottman and the idea that resentment can ruin a relationship. Our situation is complicated by the fact that we are from different countries and living in yet a third country, which would make any divorce or shared custody situation very challenging as we would likely want to be near one family or the other.
I know that we are not alone in having experienced this. I would like to know if you have experienced anything similar and how you approached and got through it (or didn’t). Thank you.
Anon email for responses, if preferred: anonmefithrowaway@gmail.com
If you have access to therapy, both individual therapy for yourself and couples therapy for both of you, I think that would be a really good thing to try if you're not already. But "get the child you want" and "resent your spouse" are not your only options here.
posted by mskyle at 2:27 PM on June 28, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by mskyle at 2:27 PM on June 28, 2021 [18 favorites]
To me your letter sounds like you feel you have a lot of evidence about why a 2nd baby would be an ok thing to do and you're frustrated because your partner isn't "letting" you have this thing you want and that you feel justified for wanting. But you don't include any of your partner's reasons for not wanting another child. Why is that? Do you know what their reasons are? Do you respect their reasons? From what I can see here, you either don't know what their reasons are or you don't respect them. In order to move forward, you're going to have to change both of those things.
posted by bleep at 2:34 PM on June 28, 2021 [50 favorites]
posted by bleep at 2:34 PM on June 28, 2021 [50 favorites]
Mod note: Gentle reminder: OP did not use pronouns or genders in their question.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:39 PM on June 28, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:39 PM on June 28, 2021 [18 favorites]
I don’t have any relationship advice, but I sympathize with your feelings about the embryo.
We also have embryos left over from a successful IVF cycle and I feel really emotional — conflicted — about their fate. I don’t want another baby, but leaving that potential just out there in the world feels… weird.
When my spouse and I discuss stopping the yearly embryo storage payment and finally making a decision about what to do with them, it kind of forces us to confront our options. Destruction, donation to science, donation to other prospective parents, or… using them ourselves (which is the really hard part to discuss because I think he wants to and I feel selfish for not wanting to). It’s a tough conversation and my spouse and I have been mutually avoiding it recently. So maybe embryo storage is an in to the conversation you need to have.
posted by liet at 3:06 PM on June 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
We also have embryos left over from a successful IVF cycle and I feel really emotional — conflicted — about their fate. I don’t want another baby, but leaving that potential just out there in the world feels… weird.
When my spouse and I discuss stopping the yearly embryo storage payment and finally making a decision about what to do with them, it kind of forces us to confront our options. Destruction, donation to science, donation to other prospective parents, or… using them ourselves (which is the really hard part to discuss because I think he wants to and I feel selfish for not wanting to). It’s a tough conversation and my spouse and I have been mutually avoiding it recently. So maybe embryo storage is an in to the conversation you need to have.
posted by liet at 3:06 PM on June 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
I really thought I wanted kids, my partner was firmly against, I faced a shitstorm of emotions that I did not deal with very well, and now years later I've come to a place of not just acceptance but kind of astonishment at my earlier position.
First - there are enough kids in the world. There are too many people. We don't have enough resources for everyone. If anyone has the money and time and space to give a kid a good life, there are billions of kids who could use it. So it's not like there is any kind of moral imperative to have kids because they are needed to keep society going or anything like that. If anything the state of the world is such that bringing a kid in is not a decision I think could be made lightly. Because there already are too many of us, and also because that kid is going to face a lot of turmoil in their life. I think our programming and evolutionary drives and such are out of whack right now and we need to take a step back from our feelings and look at things as rationally as we can.
Second, in my case, what I thought was a desire for kids was actually a whole bunch of mixed up stuff -- desire for meaning, unhealed family trauma, covert religious dogma that I didn't even know I believed, expectations about what it meant for me to be a successful person / man, desire for power and control over someone, pressure from my parents to have grandkids, FOMO, fear of dying alone, etc etc.... I could go on. This is a whole pile of baggage and I was going to bring a baby into the world and then dump all of this shit straight on top of this tiny newborn infant, just like my parents did with me. In terms of what I was prepared to give this kid, I barely thought about it. All of my desires were just about me. So thank god we never had kids because that would have been a really shitty thing to do to that little person. They would not be able to solve any of my problems (how could they) and they would grow up feeling inadequate and a failure without understanding why. Until they had kids of their own, maybe. Or we could just not.
Third, I know you didn't use genders here, but if you are male and your partner is female, you need to consider that having gone through male socialization you may be vastly vastly underestimated the childcare burden which would largley fall on your partner, therefore you need to re-weight your decisions and take that into account. it's easy to want kids if someone else is the one who takes most of the burden. Don't know if this applies to you but it definitely applied to me. Now that I'm pulling close to my share of the mental and emotional load in our household I can see that we totally have our hands full with all kinds of very important problems and things we want to do and adding a kid into the fray would have been madness and would have basically closed down huge areas of our lives, closed doors, closed possibilities. Some people are in a position to just add another person and raise them but for real... in this society... it is a hell of a commitment. There are other things you can do with that energy. You may not know what they are but they are out there. But especially take care that it is not just your energy that would be committed but your patner's. And maybe that will help you get over your resentment, if you realize that by agreeing to stop at one kid, you are gifting both you and your partner a world of possibilities with the energy that would otherwise be spent.
posted by PercussivePaul at 3:08 PM on June 28, 2021 [58 favorites]
First - there are enough kids in the world. There are too many people. We don't have enough resources for everyone. If anyone has the money and time and space to give a kid a good life, there are billions of kids who could use it. So it's not like there is any kind of moral imperative to have kids because they are needed to keep society going or anything like that. If anything the state of the world is such that bringing a kid in is not a decision I think could be made lightly. Because there already are too many of us, and also because that kid is going to face a lot of turmoil in their life. I think our programming and evolutionary drives and such are out of whack right now and we need to take a step back from our feelings and look at things as rationally as we can.
Second, in my case, what I thought was a desire for kids was actually a whole bunch of mixed up stuff -- desire for meaning, unhealed family trauma, covert religious dogma that I didn't even know I believed, expectations about what it meant for me to be a successful person / man, desire for power and control over someone, pressure from my parents to have grandkids, FOMO, fear of dying alone, etc etc.... I could go on. This is a whole pile of baggage and I was going to bring a baby into the world and then dump all of this shit straight on top of this tiny newborn infant, just like my parents did with me. In terms of what I was prepared to give this kid, I barely thought about it. All of my desires were just about me. So thank god we never had kids because that would have been a really shitty thing to do to that little person. They would not be able to solve any of my problems (how could they) and they would grow up feeling inadequate and a failure without understanding why. Until they had kids of their own, maybe. Or we could just not.
Third, I know you didn't use genders here, but if you are male and your partner is female, you need to consider that having gone through male socialization you may be vastly vastly underestimated the childcare burden which would largley fall on your partner, therefore you need to re-weight your decisions and take that into account. it's easy to want kids if someone else is the one who takes most of the burden. Don't know if this applies to you but it definitely applied to me. Now that I'm pulling close to my share of the mental and emotional load in our household I can see that we totally have our hands full with all kinds of very important problems and things we want to do and adding a kid into the fray would have been madness and would have basically closed down huge areas of our lives, closed doors, closed possibilities. Some people are in a position to just add another person and raise them but for real... in this society... it is a hell of a commitment. There are other things you can do with that energy. You may not know what they are but they are out there. But especially take care that it is not just your energy that would be committed but your patner's. And maybe that will help you get over your resentment, if you realize that by agreeing to stop at one kid, you are gifting both you and your partner a world of possibilities with the energy that would otherwise be spent.
posted by PercussivePaul at 3:08 PM on June 28, 2021 [58 favorites]
It sounds like you want to blow up your current family situation for the chance of adding an additional child to it and that confuses me.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:10 PM on June 28, 2021 [43 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:10 PM on June 28, 2021 [43 favorites]
With respect, it seems like you are trying to hold your marriage hostage to this idea of a second baby. You say "I am familiar with Gottman and the idea that resentment can ruin a relationship" - the solution to this is to do the work to not resent your partner for not trying for a second baby. This might mean therapy.
I come at this from the perspective of someone who has two children, both healthy and happy, and I had relatively easy pregnancies. Even an easy pregnancy can be rough on the gestational parent. A baby is a lot of work, for both parents. Raising a child is a massive commitment, and just because a person is willing to parent one child does not mean that adding a second is easy or logical. It is also true that if you are the non-gestational parent, you have to spend a lot more time thinking about the whole ordeal you are attempting to guilt your spouse into, because pregnancy is risky at all times, and gets rougher with age. Recovering from pregnancy can also be more difficult.
I would also like to point out, as someone who has been through ART, that a lot of people who think they will be satisfied with one level of action - ie trying to bear that second embryo - end up attempting more treatment, and your spouse has no guarantee that there will be an end point to your attempt to have a second child.
I think that the best idea is to commit to some therapy to work through this on your own, and to appreciate the family you have.
posted by MFZ at 3:14 PM on June 28, 2021 [28 favorites]
I come at this from the perspective of someone who has two children, both healthy and happy, and I had relatively easy pregnancies. Even an easy pregnancy can be rough on the gestational parent. A baby is a lot of work, for both parents. Raising a child is a massive commitment, and just because a person is willing to parent one child does not mean that adding a second is easy or logical. It is also true that if you are the non-gestational parent, you have to spend a lot more time thinking about the whole ordeal you are attempting to guilt your spouse into, because pregnancy is risky at all times, and gets rougher with age. Recovering from pregnancy can also be more difficult.
I would also like to point out, as someone who has been through ART, that a lot of people who think they will be satisfied with one level of action - ie trying to bear that second embryo - end up attempting more treatment, and your spouse has no guarantee that there will be an end point to your attempt to have a second child.
I think that the best idea is to commit to some therapy to work through this on your own, and to appreciate the family you have.
posted by MFZ at 3:14 PM on June 28, 2021 [28 favorites]
Given the existing anonymity of the question I'm confused as to the lack of clarity regarding which spouse was the gestational spouse, because that information is determinative of the types of options open to the asker. Spouse doesn't want to get pregnant and spouse doesn't want me to get pregnant are very different scenarios.
If nothing else, if the asker isn't capable of having a child on their own then their and needs to rely on the other spouse, adoption, or a hypothetical new partner to do so, that's a significantly different scenario then if the asker has the option to get pregnant themselves. [Also on preview, I second what PercussivePaul said as well.]
With that in mind, to answer the question, I was married and the marriage ended. A big part of that was resentment over certain vaguely similar issues (I'm not anonymous on here so I'm not going to say much more then that). I've probably never felt more relieved in my entire life then I did the day my spouse and I decided to get divorced, even though I wouldn't wish the process of getting divorced on anyone.
That being said, our issue was solved (for both of us) with the divorce. My spouse was able to go do what she wanted to do and I was able to look for what I was missing elsewhere as well.
You've said that you might get divorced over this issue but what's not at all clear from your question is whether you actually think divorce would (or even could) make anything better, e.g would you be able to keep custody and have another child either on your own or otherwise.
If divorce would only make things worse then I would suggest reframing the issue, e.g. glass half full vs glass half empty. As mskyle said, resentment or child are not the only two options, it is possible to come to terms with something like this without resentment if that's what you decide to do. In many ways resentment is a choice, one you can, with some difficulty, decide not to make.
posted by tiamat at 3:14 PM on June 28, 2021 [8 favorites]
If nothing else, if the asker isn't capable of having a child on their own then their and needs to rely on the other spouse, adoption, or a hypothetical new partner to do so, that's a significantly different scenario then if the asker has the option to get pregnant themselves. [Also on preview, I second what PercussivePaul said as well.]
With that in mind, to answer the question, I was married and the marriage ended. A big part of that was resentment over certain vaguely similar issues (I'm not anonymous on here so I'm not going to say much more then that). I've probably never felt more relieved in my entire life then I did the day my spouse and I decided to get divorced, even though I wouldn't wish the process of getting divorced on anyone.
That being said, our issue was solved (for both of us) with the divorce. My spouse was able to go do what she wanted to do and I was able to look for what I was missing elsewhere as well.
You've said that you might get divorced over this issue but what's not at all clear from your question is whether you actually think divorce would (or even could) make anything better, e.g would you be able to keep custody and have another child either on your own or otherwise.
If divorce would only make things worse then I would suggest reframing the issue, e.g. glass half full vs glass half empty. As mskyle said, resentment or child are not the only two options, it is possible to come to terms with something like this without resentment if that's what you decide to do. In many ways resentment is a choice, one you can, with some difficulty, decide not to make.
posted by tiamat at 3:14 PM on June 28, 2021 [8 favorites]
If you and your spouse split up, what are the reasonable odds that you would find another partner and/or have a second child in the next few years? Are you willing or financially able to have another child on your own? For most of us I am guessing these odds are pretty low.
Even as a hypothetical, that might help reframe your decision to: "The resentment ends my marriage and I still only have one child," versus "I learn to accept the possibility." Acceptance is not EASY by any means, you may absolutely hate it for a long time. But it might be the best of these three possibilities.
posted by nakedmolerats at 3:19 PM on June 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
Even as a hypothetical, that might help reframe your decision to: "The resentment ends my marriage and I still only have one child," versus "I learn to accept the possibility." Acceptance is not EASY by any means, you may absolutely hate it for a long time. But it might be the best of these three possibilities.
posted by nakedmolerats at 3:19 PM on June 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
If you would not be the gestational spouse, you need to accept that it is their body and their choice, and you should not be putting pressure on them regarding this.
If you would be the gestational spouse, I recommend focusing on how much you love and appreciate your family, and how much more important it is to you to maintain that than to attempt to have another child.
Either way, I'd try to think of having children as something that should, for everyone's sake, be a "hell yes!" for all parents, instead of something anyone should just go along with.
If this would NOT be a big issue for you if the embryo did not exist, I recommend thinking on why the existence of the embryo is such a big factor for you, and see if you can find a way to look at that differently.
posted by metasarah at 3:21 PM on June 28, 2021 [19 favorites]
If you would be the gestational spouse, I recommend focusing on how much you love and appreciate your family, and how much more important it is to you to maintain that than to attempt to have another child.
Either way, I'd try to think of having children as something that should, for everyone's sake, be a "hell yes!" for all parents, instead of something anyone should just go along with.
If this would NOT be a big issue for you if the embryo did not exist, I recommend thinking on why the existence of the embryo is such a big factor for you, and see if you can find a way to look at that differently.
posted by metasarah at 3:21 PM on June 28, 2021 [19 favorites]
"The gestational parent did have some mild postpartum depression but recovered well with talk therapy."
OP, if you're the gestational parent, the depression may not have seemed mild to your spouse, and they may be concerned about potential impact (on your existing child, on the newborn, and for your family as a whole) if you experience it again. If you are not the gestational parent, this line reads as pretty dismissive toward a difficult period in your spouse's life.
And bleep's right, you don't describe your spouse's misgivings about an additional child. (In the example above, a possible medical problem resulting from pregnancy is the issue; if you & spouse agreed, engaging a surrogate to carry your embryo would be a solution.) Seconding mskyle's suggestions to discuss this matter in therapy.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:32 PM on June 28, 2021 [32 favorites]
OP, if you're the gestational parent, the depression may not have seemed mild to your spouse, and they may be concerned about potential impact (on your existing child, on the newborn, and for your family as a whole) if you experience it again. If you are not the gestational parent, this line reads as pretty dismissive toward a difficult period in your spouse's life.
And bleep's right, you don't describe your spouse's misgivings about an additional child. (In the example above, a possible medical problem resulting from pregnancy is the issue; if you & spouse agreed, engaging a surrogate to carry your embryo would be a solution.) Seconding mskyle's suggestions to discuss this matter in therapy.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:32 PM on June 28, 2021 [32 favorites]
Imagine growing up as a child, knowing that one of your parents really didn't want you. For the sake of the child, don't be selfish; let it go.
posted by SPrintF at 3:50 PM on June 28, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 3:50 PM on June 28, 2021 [19 favorites]
I'm so sorry, this is really hard. I wasn't in your exact scenario but the way you write about living with that unanswered question or untested possibility of a second child, just hanging out there unresolved, feels very familiar to me.
Gently, if the gestational spouse is the one who feels strongly that they don't want more children, I too feel that has to be the end of the conversation.
Absolutely seek individual therapy and potentially couples therapy. There might always be deep grief and anger and loss over the dream of a second child, but I don't think it's necessarily inevitable that it will morph into marriage-threatening levels of resentment if that spouse has a safe place to work through the intense difficulty of this situation, and they definitely shouldn't be trying to do it alone. This is a big deal.
I know of one couple who chose not to try to use their last embryo after a long and difficult series of conversations about it, and even though they were ultimately in agreement, it was a gut-wrenching decision with so many deep and complicated emotions and feelings. On the day their embryo was destroyed, they made a ceremony out of it, kind of like a funeral for a dream, where they talked about the journey they'd been on, acknowledged the beauty and strength and good fortune of their existing family while also honoring the loss and grief around what wasn't going to be, and cried buckets of tears together. Even though it was a devastatingly sad day, they also felt a certain amount of relief and closure, and were really glad they'd taken the time to mark the significance of it. I always thought that was really beautiful, and depending on your relationship, maybe something like that would be helpful if it comes to this.
posted by anderjen at 3:56 PM on June 28, 2021 [13 favorites]
Gently, if the gestational spouse is the one who feels strongly that they don't want more children, I too feel that has to be the end of the conversation.
Absolutely seek individual therapy and potentially couples therapy. There might always be deep grief and anger and loss over the dream of a second child, but I don't think it's necessarily inevitable that it will morph into marriage-threatening levels of resentment if that spouse has a safe place to work through the intense difficulty of this situation, and they definitely shouldn't be trying to do it alone. This is a big deal.
I know of one couple who chose not to try to use their last embryo after a long and difficult series of conversations about it, and even though they were ultimately in agreement, it was a gut-wrenching decision with so many deep and complicated emotions and feelings. On the day their embryo was destroyed, they made a ceremony out of it, kind of like a funeral for a dream, where they talked about the journey they'd been on, acknowledged the beauty and strength and good fortune of their existing family while also honoring the loss and grief around what wasn't going to be, and cried buckets of tears together. Even though it was a devastatingly sad day, they also felt a certain amount of relief and closure, and were really glad they'd taken the time to mark the significance of it. I always thought that was really beautiful, and depending on your relationship, maybe something like that would be helpful if it comes to this.
posted by anderjen at 3:56 PM on June 28, 2021 [13 favorites]
I feel like the question here is coming down to do you want a second child or do you want a second chance at winning the fertility lottery? Those are two very different outcomes. I know very well the feeling of absolute triumph at beating the fertility game with a healthy baby after IVF. Mr. Darling and I went through 5 years of it - with me of course bearing the physical and emotional brunt. When that child was in my arms, I felt like it was a big middle finger to the universe that had been so unyielding for all of those years.
And then I had crushing post partum depression. What is interesting about your characterization of the gestational spouse's PPD as "mild" is that I wonder if it really was mild. It may have seemed mild to you but it may have been monumental to them. I don't know if my husband ever really had a good inkling of how bad it was for me and I didn't share with him until much later. It was that PPD and just constant snow globe shaking of my life for the first year that made me downright hostile to having another.
Spoiler alert: we did have another. She was free - natural conception and while I cannot imagine life without her I can say unequivocally that our lives would have been 200 percent easier with just the one.
I third counseling for all of you. There is time - gestational spouse almost being 40 is a bit of a red herring since the part that can go most haywire with age is the embryo and that is already there. Go talk with someone.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 4:01 PM on June 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
And then I had crushing post partum depression. What is interesting about your characterization of the gestational spouse's PPD as "mild" is that I wonder if it really was mild. It may have seemed mild to you but it may have been monumental to them. I don't know if my husband ever really had a good inkling of how bad it was for me and I didn't share with him until much later. It was that PPD and just constant snow globe shaking of my life for the first year that made me downright hostile to having another.
Spoiler alert: we did have another. She was free - natural conception and while I cannot imagine life without her I can say unequivocally that our lives would have been 200 percent easier with just the one.
I third counseling for all of you. There is time - gestational spouse almost being 40 is a bit of a red herring since the part that can go most haywire with age is the embryo and that is already there. Go talk with someone.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 4:01 PM on June 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
Adding/applicable if you are not gestational parent - It may help to ease your feelings of resentment if you focus more on the depth and breadth of what you are requesting of your partner. Pregnancy is a huge deal physically no matter what, and the impact is magnified as you age, and even harder if you have to do hormone injections as part of a fertility intervention. In addition, other risk factors like breast cancer risk go up exponentially for women who have kids after 35.
I bring this up to highlight the magnitude of what you are expecting your partner to endure on your behalf. You aren't asking them to adjust something abstract like an element of how your relationship functions - you're asking them to make a major medical decision with long-term health implications for them. If your partner asked you to make a choice that would lead to you feeling emotionally unstable for months, change your hormone profile forever, change your body forever, leave you feeling tired and weak for months to years, and possibly require major surgery and recovery or even carry a risk of death for them, would you feel it was appropriate for them to resent you if you refused?
It must be incredibly hard to be on the other side of that when you lack the control to take on the decision and implications yourself, which is why feeling sad and disappointed is totally valid and expected. However, to resent your partner for not making this sacrifice on your behalf implies that on some level you believe you are entitled to this child more than your partner is entitled to control their body. This is why it's so important to respect your partner's choice - it's simply not right to believe that is owed to you.
posted by amycup at 4:17 PM on June 28, 2021 [19 favorites]
I bring this up to highlight the magnitude of what you are expecting your partner to endure on your behalf. You aren't asking them to adjust something abstract like an element of how your relationship functions - you're asking them to make a major medical decision with long-term health implications for them. If your partner asked you to make a choice that would lead to you feeling emotionally unstable for months, change your hormone profile forever, change your body forever, leave you feeling tired and weak for months to years, and possibly require major surgery and recovery or even carry a risk of death for them, would you feel it was appropriate for them to resent you if you refused?
It must be incredibly hard to be on the other side of that when you lack the control to take on the decision and implications yourself, which is why feeling sad and disappointed is totally valid and expected. However, to resent your partner for not making this sacrifice on your behalf implies that on some level you believe you are entitled to this child more than your partner is entitled to control their body. This is why it's so important to respect your partner's choice - it's simply not right to believe that is owed to you.
posted by amycup at 4:17 PM on June 28, 2021 [19 favorites]
The gestational partner has to have the veto on another pregnancy, as the person undertaking a long-term physically painful and potentially life-threatening process.
I almost feel like I've misread this question somehow. I don't think I've ever heard of a non-religious fanatic wanting to divorce a committed partner over merely not agreeing on the number of children. Children vs. none, yes--but not two vs. one. Of course it can be very frustrating and sad to accept that you're not going to have the number of children you want, but it's not the thing to break up an otherwise happy family over. Is having a second child actually more important to you than your partnership and a daily life with your already existing child in it, or is something else going on?
posted by praemunire at 4:31 PM on June 28, 2021 [43 favorites]
I almost feel like I've misread this question somehow. I don't think I've ever heard of a non-religious fanatic wanting to divorce a committed partner over merely not agreeing on the number of children. Children vs. none, yes--but not two vs. one. Of course it can be very frustrating and sad to accept that you're not going to have the number of children you want, but it's not the thing to break up an otherwise happy family over. Is having a second child actually more important to you than your partnership and a daily life with your already existing child in it, or is something else going on?
posted by praemunire at 4:31 PM on June 28, 2021 [43 favorites]
if the embryo didn't exist, do you think you would feel the same way? That is, would you want to continue fertility treatments at this point to get more embryos to keep trying? Or is this about not leaving that particular embryo in limbo in a storage tank forever?
If it's about the embryo, would it help you to have some sort of ... "funeral" or "decommissioning ceremony" for it? I don't know if they would literally give you the test tube and allow you to bury it, it might have to be a symbolic thing. But you would essentially be shifting your thought process to mourning the loss of the (potential) child rather than deciding about its fate. Maybe a formal ceremony or ritual of some kind would help with that?
That, of course, is taking on a whole different kind of emotional burden, but hopefully one that you could *share* with your spouse. It could be the two of you together mourning the "death" of the (potential) second baby rather than you holding onto anger that your spouse wouldn't let it be born. You need your spouse to be on your same level of sadness and grief so it's a shared experience that brings you closer together rather than a situation where spouse "killed" the second "baby" by saying no while you cried about it.
posted by mccxxiii at 4:45 PM on June 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
If it's about the embryo, would it help you to have some sort of ... "funeral" or "decommissioning ceremony" for it? I don't know if they would literally give you the test tube and allow you to bury it, it might have to be a symbolic thing. But you would essentially be shifting your thought process to mourning the loss of the (potential) child rather than deciding about its fate. Maybe a formal ceremony or ritual of some kind would help with that?
That, of course, is taking on a whole different kind of emotional burden, but hopefully one that you could *share* with your spouse. It could be the two of you together mourning the "death" of the (potential) second baby rather than you holding onto anger that your spouse wouldn't let it be born. You need your spouse to be on your same level of sadness and grief so it's a shared experience that brings you closer together rather than a situation where spouse "killed" the second "baby" by saying no while you cried about it.
posted by mccxxiii at 4:45 PM on June 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
But I can’t imagine getting divorced and not seeing my child every day.
This is the only reason you mention for not wanting to get a divorce. It seems to me that there’s a whole additional issue going on here that you’re not discussing at all.
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:04 PM on June 28, 2021 [28 favorites]
This is the only reason you mention for not wanting to get a divorce. It seems to me that there’s a whole additional issue going on here that you’re not discussing at all.
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:04 PM on June 28, 2021 [28 favorites]
If we were to try with the remaining embryo and fail, I would not want any further treatment and would consider our family complete. But because we have the embryo, I feel I will always regret not trying.
This is the part of your question that strikes me as the most misguided, and worth speaking to a therapist about - if there was no remaining embryo you'd feel like your family was complete but because the embryo represents a very slight chance of a second kid you're concerned you'll resent your spouse to the point of divorce? Something isn't adding up, which again, suggests talking to a professional would be helpful.
posted by coffeecat at 5:12 PM on June 28, 2021 [26 favorites]
This is the part of your question that strikes me as the most misguided, and worth speaking to a therapist about - if there was no remaining embryo you'd feel like your family was complete but because the embryo represents a very slight chance of a second kid you're concerned you'll resent your spouse to the point of divorce? Something isn't adding up, which again, suggests talking to a professional would be helpful.
posted by coffeecat at 5:12 PM on June 28, 2021 [26 favorites]
O.P., you’re putting an imaginary being over the wishes of your partner. An embryo is half a set of blueprints only.
Please scroll up and re-read PercussivePaul‘s second paragraph.
There isn’t a more succinct reason not to.
posted by BostonTerrier at 5:33 PM on June 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
Please scroll up and re-read PercussivePaul‘s second paragraph.
There isn’t a more succinct reason not to.
posted by BostonTerrier at 5:33 PM on June 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
Hi OP.
I think there are three things to tease out in your question.
On resentment: Since you have (correctly) determined that having a child ethically requires two yeses, you just need to get your mind around the idea that your spouse does, in fact, have veto power. Sometimes we cheerfully say that our spouse can veto a goal (move, eldercare situation, etc.) but what we really mean is that we don't expect them to. So really, even if this weren't a baby, your question how do you not resent your spouse is...you remember that your spouse is not you. Your spouse has their own opinions, dreams, goals, etc. Your spouse is a person beyond whether they bend to your will on important things. And part of a healthy marriage is sometimes doing something for the other person.
If possible, you need to wholeheartedly accept that you have already made two important decisions that were in your control. 1., you married your spouse. 2. You have chosen the right and ethical stance that if your spouse doesn't want a second child, no second child. You can really appreciate that and appreciate that your spouse is being clear and honest. Resentment does not have to follow from not getting your own way.
As an example, we bought a house I didn't initially want. From that house has sprung local friends I wouldn't have met, local job I wouldn't have had, local activities we love, and a beautiful lake. I could have made living in this house a living hell and forced a move. But I chose to make my spouse happy and lo and behold...I got super extra happiness. The trick is not to stand against your spouse. The trick is step into the space your spouse is in, even if it feels awkward and not right, and say, "Okay, from here I see that by having one child, we can afford more trips and show our child more of the world/have more time for hobbies/put more away for university/whatever."
Second, I agree it is weird that you have a position that if "fate/God/whatever" were to make your embryo non-viable, you'd be okay. Fate HAS made that happen by giving your spouse clarity on their desires and limits. In order to have the embryo, you need two parents engaged and gestating, and you only have one. So just back that up a step and that can lower your resentment because - the conditions are not right. The conditions simply aren't right.
Finally, I agree that you may have some sense that that second zygote is a choice already made. But IVF is kind of weird that way - it can provide a whole bunch of zygotes before you've had any babies. Maybe think of it like if you had 12, you wouldn't feel like you had to have 12 more babies I presume. So it's a matter of number, not actual decision-making.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:01 PM on June 28, 2021 [55 favorites]
I think there are three things to tease out in your question.
On resentment: Since you have (correctly) determined that having a child ethically requires two yeses, you just need to get your mind around the idea that your spouse does, in fact, have veto power. Sometimes we cheerfully say that our spouse can veto a goal (move, eldercare situation, etc.) but what we really mean is that we don't expect them to. So really, even if this weren't a baby, your question how do you not resent your spouse is...you remember that your spouse is not you. Your spouse has their own opinions, dreams, goals, etc. Your spouse is a person beyond whether they bend to your will on important things. And part of a healthy marriage is sometimes doing something for the other person.
If possible, you need to wholeheartedly accept that you have already made two important decisions that were in your control. 1., you married your spouse. 2. You have chosen the right and ethical stance that if your spouse doesn't want a second child, no second child. You can really appreciate that and appreciate that your spouse is being clear and honest. Resentment does not have to follow from not getting your own way.
As an example, we bought a house I didn't initially want. From that house has sprung local friends I wouldn't have met, local job I wouldn't have had, local activities we love, and a beautiful lake. I could have made living in this house a living hell and forced a move. But I chose to make my spouse happy and lo and behold...I got super extra happiness. The trick is not to stand against your spouse. The trick is step into the space your spouse is in, even if it feels awkward and not right, and say, "Okay, from here I see that by having one child, we can afford more trips and show our child more of the world/have more time for hobbies/put more away for university/whatever."
Second, I agree it is weird that you have a position that if "fate/God/whatever" were to make your embryo non-viable, you'd be okay. Fate HAS made that happen by giving your spouse clarity on their desires and limits. In order to have the embryo, you need two parents engaged and gestating, and you only have one. So just back that up a step and that can lower your resentment because - the conditions are not right. The conditions simply aren't right.
Finally, I agree that you may have some sense that that second zygote is a choice already made. But IVF is kind of weird that way - it can provide a whole bunch of zygotes before you've had any babies. Maybe think of it like if you had 12, you wouldn't feel like you had to have 12 more babies I presume. So it's a matter of number, not actual decision-making.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:01 PM on June 28, 2021 [55 favorites]
warrirorqueen's answer reminded me of something I forgot to mention in my first comment. The beginning of the acceptance process for me happened when I came to understand that I had found my mate and chosen to marry her, and that she was not going to have kids with me (or with anyone). There was not a life in front of me in which she and I had kids together; that didn't exist. Her decision, her 'no', was a hard fact. the beginning and end of the discussion.
That realization prompted several more realizations -- first, regardless of what I thought I was doing with my inner torment, what i was actually doing was tormenting my partner to try to get her to change her mind. Not respecting her 'no', in other words; treating it as if it was negotiable. Second, that I had chosen her to be my partner and that I still believed this to be the right choice. And that because the woman I had chosen did want want kids, I would not be a father, just a simple fact, Third, that by choosing to respect her 'no', the problem became easy. I gradually stopped thinking about it, and my emotions gradually sorted themselves out.
So OP - you need to accept your partner's no, and stop dreaming of a future with more than one kid with her. You do have the possibility of leaving her to go have kids with someone else, but if ]having more kids was so important that you would leave, then you would leave if that second embryo failed. Since you don't want to do that, it means like me that you are happy with your choice of life partner. That means all this back and forth and your talk of divorce is just a threat you're using to try to manipulate your partner into changing their mind. Stop it with the manipulation and accept your partner's no and everything will get easier from here.
posted by PercussivePaul at 7:03 PM on June 28, 2021 [25 favorites]
That realization prompted several more realizations -- first, regardless of what I thought I was doing with my inner torment, what i was actually doing was tormenting my partner to try to get her to change her mind. Not respecting her 'no', in other words; treating it as if it was negotiable. Second, that I had chosen her to be my partner and that I still believed this to be the right choice. And that because the woman I had chosen did want want kids, I would not be a father, just a simple fact, Third, that by choosing to respect her 'no', the problem became easy. I gradually stopped thinking about it, and my emotions gradually sorted themselves out.
So OP - you need to accept your partner's no, and stop dreaming of a future with more than one kid with her. You do have the possibility of leaving her to go have kids with someone else, but if ]having more kids was so important that you would leave, then you would leave if that second embryo failed. Since you don't want to do that, it means like me that you are happy with your choice of life partner. That means all this back and forth and your talk of divorce is just a threat you're using to try to manipulate your partner into changing their mind. Stop it with the manipulation and accept your partner's no and everything will get easier from here.
posted by PercussivePaul at 7:03 PM on June 28, 2021 [25 favorites]
Picking up on the comment above, one key thing here that I don't see discussed is what your agreement was (or wasn't) about having kids when you got spoused-up.
If you chose to marry your spouse with the agreement that you would have 2 children, then spouse had one and unilaterally changed the deision, that's a big difference from there being no arrangement beforhand and the two of you just arriving at different conclusions. One of those is betrayal of an agreement and one is ... bad luck.
I can see eventually being able to move on emotionally if it were the latter, but if it were the former you'll have a lot more soul-searching to do about how trustworthy your spouse is and what other relationship agreements might not be upheld.
posted by mccxxiii at 9:49 PM on June 28, 2021
If you chose to marry your spouse with the agreement that you would have 2 children, then spouse had one and unilaterally changed the deision, that's a big difference from there being no arrangement beforhand and the two of you just arriving at different conclusions. One of those is betrayal of an agreement and one is ... bad luck.
I can see eventually being able to move on emotionally if it were the latter, but if it were the former you'll have a lot more soul-searching to do about how trustworthy your spouse is and what other relationship agreements might not be upheld.
posted by mccxxiii at 9:49 PM on June 28, 2021
I think it would be incredibly ill-advised for a person who had one child and realized that they didn't want more to have another lest they...be in breach of contract? Be deemed untrustworthy?
posted by praemunire at 11:28 PM on June 28, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:28 PM on June 28, 2021 [12 favorites]
Imagine growing up as a child, knowing that one of your parents really didn't want you. For the sake of the child, don't be selfish; let it go.
*raises hand*
Hi, I'm your potential second child. Please don't do this.
My father had four kids with his first wife, and really didn't want another. My mum, much like PercussivePaul above, wanted a child for all the wrong, selfish reasons. After they married my father caved to her pressure because "how can I deny her the chance to be a mother".
Even though I know I had no choice in the matter, I'll live the rest of my life with the guilt of knowing my father -- who was a good father despite the circumstances, and whom I love and miss -- gave up the life he wanted to raise and support me, in order to please a woman who had a gaping hole inside her that I was supposed to fill, but never could.
What you are contemplating is a terrible thing to do to another human.
posted by myotahapea at 3:52 AM on June 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
*raises hand*
Hi, I'm your potential second child. Please don't do this.
My father had four kids with his first wife, and really didn't want another. My mum, much like PercussivePaul above, wanted a child for all the wrong, selfish reasons. After they married my father caved to her pressure because "how can I deny her the chance to be a mother".
Even though I know I had no choice in the matter, I'll live the rest of my life with the guilt of knowing my father -- who was a good father despite the circumstances, and whom I love and miss -- gave up the life he wanted to raise and support me, in order to please a woman who had a gaping hole inside her that I was supposed to fill, but never could.
What you are contemplating is a terrible thing to do to another human.
posted by myotahapea at 3:52 AM on June 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
Resentment, like other feelings, does not need to be permanent. It can pass. But you have to acknowledge it, and feel it, and accept it, and accept the other feelings (sadness, grief, disappointment) that come with it. I think your goal should be to accept your partner’s wishes and process your feelings in a healthy way.
posted by mai at 5:24 AM on June 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by mai at 5:24 AM on June 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
But because we have the embryo, I feel I will always regret not trying.
I know exactly what you mean. We had a successful IVF cycle resulting in twins, we had one embryo in the freezer, we put off making a decision about the last embryo for a decade, then when we decided to let it go, it was this level of grief just as harsh as every single previous failed IVF, I mean those ten years did nothing to blunt that sadness I felt. And I'm still very sad years down the road.
In our case, we had never been in a position where a second pregnancy would have been anything other than dangerous; the gestational partner was in her 40s, the first pregnancy kicked her ass, and there was minimal chance of the embryo implanting, let alone carrying to term. But I still feel a loss.
BUT. The key is that I can talk with my partner and share that sadness, and they listen to me. I've had a lot of time to process everything, and I recognize that I'm disappointed, hurt, etc. and at the same time I know that there was never a reasonable period of time where we would have been really able to try for this.
posted by disconnect at 6:18 AM on June 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
I know exactly what you mean. We had a successful IVF cycle resulting in twins, we had one embryo in the freezer, we put off making a decision about the last embryo for a decade, then when we decided to let it go, it was this level of grief just as harsh as every single previous failed IVF, I mean those ten years did nothing to blunt that sadness I felt. And I'm still very sad years down the road.
In our case, we had never been in a position where a second pregnancy would have been anything other than dangerous; the gestational partner was in her 40s, the first pregnancy kicked her ass, and there was minimal chance of the embryo implanting, let alone carrying to term. But I still feel a loss.
BUT. The key is that I can talk with my partner and share that sadness, and they listen to me. I've had a lot of time to process everything, and I recognize that I'm disappointed, hurt, etc. and at the same time I know that there was never a reasonable period of time where we would have been really able to try for this.
posted by disconnect at 6:18 AM on June 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
If you're familiar with Gottman, you might remember that his books present a method for dealing with situations where there is no compromise position. It has to do with being upfront, understanding of, and respectful of the emotions that arise in each scenario. I am on mobile, don't have time to look up the specific phrasing used in the books, but--go do more work.
posted by Sublimity at 7:59 AM on June 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Sublimity at 7:59 AM on June 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
Lots of great advice above, but to hone in on "going into the marriage we didn't talk about it, but I knew I wanted two and she didn't have a set number". Before marrying my husband we talked about number of kids, my husband wanted none OR two, I wanted to wait and see if I liked being a parent before picking a number.
And after our first kid (who is great), he changed his mind. It's impossible to guess how you will feel after you become a parent. I ended up pushing for a second, and second kid is also great and husband has zero regrets BUT it's really not fair to hold a person to what you thought you were going to want before you had a kid (also I am the gestational parent, so it was my body going through all that).
posted by dotparker at 9:02 AM on June 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
And after our first kid (who is great), he changed his mind. It's impossible to guess how you will feel after you become a parent. I ended up pushing for a second, and second kid is also great and husband has zero regrets BUT it's really not fair to hold a person to what you thought you were going to want before you had a kid (also I am the gestational parent, so it was my body going through all that).
posted by dotparker at 9:02 AM on June 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
I would feel terrible if my spouse wrote this and referred to me as a “gestational spouse.” Pregnancy is terribly difficult and I don’t think post-partum depression is by its very nature minor. It’s possible your partner feels you are dismissive of the reality of what having another baby will mean to their health or personal and professional goals. How old is your first child? I ask because I can actually relate to wanting another kid when my spouse was unsure- but I was the person “gestating” and it was far more my decision than my partner’s. In our case, our firstborn was a toddler and it took her just growing a bit older for my partner to agree he wanted a second. Those baby and early toddler years can be so stressful, it’s hard to decide on a second when you’re recovering from the first. Maybe storing the embryo longer is a good compromise, as suggested above.
posted by areaperson at 11:38 AM on June 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by areaperson at 11:38 AM on June 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
The summary of "If we don't have another kid I'm going to divorce my current spouse and not be there for my current kid." doesn't' seem like a convincing reason for your spouse to even WANT a second kid with you. Learn to be happy and supportive of what you have. Nothing is guaranteed.
posted by Crystalinne at 2:54 PM on June 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Crystalinne at 2:54 PM on June 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
The only ways I know of to move past disappointment and resentment are:
- blow everything up, cut and run
- chip away at what your expectations were and what you felt entitled to, and find ways of getting what you need, mourning what you can't have, or resetting your expectations to something you can live with.
Just kidding, that first one only LOOKS like it works. There's only the one way out: through.
How did you get through other disappointments? (Surely this isn't the first time in your almost 40 years that something hasn't gone your way.) If the only way you've ever managed disappointment is to cut and run from the situation, well, now is when you discover the limits of that pretty bogus emotional coping strategy.
I know (or anyway have been told) that the kid question brings up emotions that are kind of outsized but it really sounds like there's more going on here than just your spouse not wanting another kid. You have gone from a supportive happy relationship with lots of love to --> blown up with supposedly nothing having changed except the possibility of a second child.
Or maybe not! Maybe the upset is just fresh and possibly you are not the sort of person who is used to feeling upset. Or maybe you ARE the sort of person to get upset but also the kind of person who catastrophizes about stuff, so your thought process is "I am upset now" / "what if I am upset forever" / "I will be upset forever". Either way it sounds like you don't have a handle on things and the way you get a handle on them is through therapy, alone and with your spouse, to start wrangling these big feelings into something you can live with.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:30 PM on June 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
- blow everything up, cut and run
- chip away at what your expectations were and what you felt entitled to, and find ways of getting what you need, mourning what you can't have, or resetting your expectations to something you can live with.
Just kidding, that first one only LOOKS like it works. There's only the one way out: through.
How did you get through other disappointments? (Surely this isn't the first time in your almost 40 years that something hasn't gone your way.) If the only way you've ever managed disappointment is to cut and run from the situation, well, now is when you discover the limits of that pretty bogus emotional coping strategy.
I know (or anyway have been told) that the kid question brings up emotions that are kind of outsized but it really sounds like there's more going on here than just your spouse not wanting another kid. You have gone from a supportive happy relationship with lots of love to --> blown up with supposedly nothing having changed except the possibility of a second child.
Or maybe not! Maybe the upset is just fresh and possibly you are not the sort of person who is used to feeling upset. Or maybe you ARE the sort of person to get upset but also the kind of person who catastrophizes about stuff, so your thought process is "I am upset now" / "what if I am upset forever" / "I will be upset forever". Either way it sounds like you don't have a handle on things and the way you get a handle on them is through therapy, alone and with your spouse, to start wrangling these big feelings into something you can live with.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:30 PM on June 29, 2021 [7 favorites]
Hi OP. I'm sorry you're going through this, it's really hard. It is especially hard since your spouse, with veto power, is effectively making the decision for you (as you would for them if it was the other way around). If you tried with the last embryo, and nature made the no-decision for you, you might have resentment at nature, but it wouldn't be within your marriage.
I just wrote a long response, but it got eaten by the internet. The main point was, I found this article helpful in distinguishing between desire and decision. It is geared at non-parents trying to decide if they want kids, but it has some applicable points for you. Your desire is trying for another child. But your decision comes down to staying with your spouse and child and giving up that second chance, or divorcing your spouse and all the pain that comes with that. It may help to try sitting with and living with that decision for a while, and starting to own it as your own.
I hope you and your spouse are supporting and understanding of each other during this hard time. It may help to talk to an outside party if you feel that you both are starting to just dump your pain back and forth between each other.
posted by sillysally at 7:58 AM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
I just wrote a long response, but it got eaten by the internet. The main point was, I found this article helpful in distinguishing between desire and decision. It is geared at non-parents trying to decide if they want kids, but it has some applicable points for you. Your desire is trying for another child. But your decision comes down to staying with your spouse and child and giving up that second chance, or divorcing your spouse and all the pain that comes with that. It may help to try sitting with and living with that decision for a while, and starting to own it as your own.
I hope you and your spouse are supporting and understanding of each other during this hard time. It may help to talk to an outside party if you feel that you both are starting to just dump your pain back and forth between each other.
posted by sillysally at 7:58 AM on June 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
(By "living with that decision for a while" I meant living with the decision to stay in your marriage and give up the chance on another child, and seeing if owning that decision helps you)
posted by sillysally at 9:05 AM on June 30, 2021
posted by sillysally at 9:05 AM on June 30, 2021
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posted by Dolley at 2:25 PM on June 28, 2021 [15 favorites]