How can I best help & protect my mother following scam/identity theft
May 16, 2021 8:57 AM Subscribe
Six months ago, my 65-year-old mother informed us that she had had her identity stolen and her bank accounts subsequently emptied. She has since changed all of her contact info multiple times and will not communicate with me, supposedly out of fear of being traced(?). I am doing research on my end with the FBI's webpage as a starting point, but my severely limited legal and financial savvy mean I'm flying blind here. Can anyone who has faced a similar situation suggest best practices, resources, first steps etc. for getting her financial/legal help? TL;DR at the bottom.
Because I live very far away and Mom (who is in the U.S.) refuses to make or answer calls, emails, texts, video calls, or apparently now even letters, it is extremely difficult to get a full picture of what happened or what the current situation is. Here is what I know:
- In 2019 my mother started to become uncharacteristically critical and irritable. I spoke to my brother about this, who said he had also noticed that she had been getting a little more acerbic, but absent any other major changes or problems--no memory weirdness, no executive function issues, no outbursts, no strange behavior--we chalked it up to her just getting older and a little more impatient. I wonder now if this should have been a red flag, though it may of course not be related to what happened after.
- When I saw her that Christmas, she told me she had been dating someone she met online, 'Dave', for about 5 months, and that they were 'serious'. My mom had actually been dabbling in online dating for a while at that point, and we had never felt there was cause for concern: she seemed to be taking any disappointments in stride while continuing to enjoy the whole thing as a social activity. With 'Dave', however, alarm bells started to ring. She said she believed they would be getting married in early 2020, and asked me to promise to attend the ceremony and be accepting of Dave as a member of the family if/when they did marry. I was taken aback, since it quickly became clear that:
1) She had never met Dave in person, apparently because their scheduled meetups kept falling apart due to last-minute emergencies on his end (his dog had to go to the hospital, he had an urgent client meeting in another country, his basement was flooding, etc.).
2) She had given him access to at least one of her online streaming accounts, suggesting he had at least one of her passwords.
I tried to be supportive and nonjudgmental, because it seemed incredibly cruel to immediately imply that this person she apparently was infatuated with could be a scammer. Furthermore, since my mother has very, very little in the way of money or assets, she did seem an unlikely target for some sort of monthslong romance scam. I said I was really happy she had met someone nice, but did urge her not to loan him any money or fly out to see him by herself. (Honestly, I figured the most likely scenario was that Dave was either married or else dating multiple women concurrently, hence the repeated excuses to avoid meeting up.)
- Mid-spring 2020 I learned that she was no longer speaking to Dave, though my brother, who shares her Netflix account, told me that he still had a user profile on there.
- In October 2020 my brother told me that my mother was in debt to another family member to the tune of several tens of thousands of dollars, that her online accounts had been hacked and her checking and savings accounts emptied. Alarmed, I asked my brother whether he knew if 'Dave' had been involved, and he said he suspected so but that our mother wouldn't confirm this.
- It is still unclear how my mother, who certainly did not have tens of thousands in the bank to steal/be scammed out of in the first place, came to need to borrow such a large sum. I assume it was mostly to cover expenses after having her funds stolen, but have a terrible suspicion she may also have gone into debt in order to give money to 'Dave'. Since she won't communicate about any of this I can't yet be sure. My brother told me my mother had asked him not to share this all with me, as she preferred to do so herself.
- My mother called me in December, saying she had had her identity stolen, that she had alerted the police and the FBI, that her accounts had been wiped out, and that she was changing all of her contact information including telephone number. She would not elaborate on what had happened, what law enforcement had told her or was meant to be doing about the situation, or what was happening on a day-to-day basis in terms of paying for groceries, bills, mortgage etc. This was the last time I heard from her directly, besides a WhatsApp from her then-new phone number (since deactivated/changed) saying she was closing her Amazon account.
Obviously I am extremely freaked out by all of this. I know through my brother (who lives in the same neighborhood) that she is physically safe, continuing to go to her job, etc., but that is the extent of it. Because I know so little about identity theft/scams, it is hard to tell whether her refusal to communicate is rooted in paranoia, in a physical threat she is not telling me about (i.e., a life-threatening emergency necessitating me leaving my job), or in legitimate data-security concerns. Is this something law enforcement would have told her to do? She says she is not being stalked, but if that's the case, why refuse to communicate electronically?
The situation is complicated by the following factors:
- I, the eldest child and only daughter (i.e., the default Fixer Of Everything), actually live several thousand kilometres and several timezones away from Mom. I obviously am going to have to go over there to sort this out, since she refuses to respond to any communications, but between my job and COVID-related travel restrictions, the earliest I can possibly go out will be late summer, and I won't be able to stay very long.
- My siblings do live in the US, including the aforementioned brother who lives in her neighborhood. However, for reasons too tedious and complicated to get into, they are unlikely to be much practical help in the matter beyond ensuring her immediate physical safety.
- My mother has (largely untreated) anxiety and a somewhat complicated relationship with the truth. It can be very hard to get a complete picture of a problem until several long and stressful conversations have elapsed, usually because she's either exaggerating a given issue out of a fear of not being adequately supported OR else hiding its true severity out of, idk, probably a combination of shame and avoidance.
TL;DR: My main questions are:
- Is it worth involving a lawyer at this point? If so, what kind should I look into?
- Assuming the perpetrator was 'Dave' or whoever was acting through him, does this scam qualify as elder financial abuse given my mother's age?
- Do I have any standing to contact law enforcement regarding the (supposed) investigation? (I do not have power of attorney, so I think not.)
- I saw a couple of posts on the Green about products like IdentityGuard, and I'm planning to try to either have my brother set this up for our mother or, failing that, do it when I'm there. Are there any other products or services in this vein we should consider?
A heartfelt thank-you in advance to anyone who might be willing to share info or advice.
Because I live very far away and Mom (who is in the U.S.) refuses to make or answer calls, emails, texts, video calls, or apparently now even letters, it is extremely difficult to get a full picture of what happened or what the current situation is. Here is what I know:
- In 2019 my mother started to become uncharacteristically critical and irritable. I spoke to my brother about this, who said he had also noticed that she had been getting a little more acerbic, but absent any other major changes or problems--no memory weirdness, no executive function issues, no outbursts, no strange behavior--we chalked it up to her just getting older and a little more impatient. I wonder now if this should have been a red flag, though it may of course not be related to what happened after.
- When I saw her that Christmas, she told me she had been dating someone she met online, 'Dave', for about 5 months, and that they were 'serious'. My mom had actually been dabbling in online dating for a while at that point, and we had never felt there was cause for concern: she seemed to be taking any disappointments in stride while continuing to enjoy the whole thing as a social activity. With 'Dave', however, alarm bells started to ring. She said she believed they would be getting married in early 2020, and asked me to promise to attend the ceremony and be accepting of Dave as a member of the family if/when they did marry. I was taken aback, since it quickly became clear that:
1) She had never met Dave in person, apparently because their scheduled meetups kept falling apart due to last-minute emergencies on his end (his dog had to go to the hospital, he had an urgent client meeting in another country, his basement was flooding, etc.).
2) She had given him access to at least one of her online streaming accounts, suggesting he had at least one of her passwords.
I tried to be supportive and nonjudgmental, because it seemed incredibly cruel to immediately imply that this person she apparently was infatuated with could be a scammer. Furthermore, since my mother has very, very little in the way of money or assets, she did seem an unlikely target for some sort of monthslong romance scam. I said I was really happy she had met someone nice, but did urge her not to loan him any money or fly out to see him by herself. (Honestly, I figured the most likely scenario was that Dave was either married or else dating multiple women concurrently, hence the repeated excuses to avoid meeting up.)
- Mid-spring 2020 I learned that she was no longer speaking to Dave, though my brother, who shares her Netflix account, told me that he still had a user profile on there.
- In October 2020 my brother told me that my mother was in debt to another family member to the tune of several tens of thousands of dollars, that her online accounts had been hacked and her checking and savings accounts emptied. Alarmed, I asked my brother whether he knew if 'Dave' had been involved, and he said he suspected so but that our mother wouldn't confirm this.
- It is still unclear how my mother, who certainly did not have tens of thousands in the bank to steal/be scammed out of in the first place, came to need to borrow such a large sum. I assume it was mostly to cover expenses after having her funds stolen, but have a terrible suspicion she may also have gone into debt in order to give money to 'Dave'. Since she won't communicate about any of this I can't yet be sure. My brother told me my mother had asked him not to share this all with me, as she preferred to do so herself.
- My mother called me in December, saying she had had her identity stolen, that she had alerted the police and the FBI, that her accounts had been wiped out, and that she was changing all of her contact information including telephone number. She would not elaborate on what had happened, what law enforcement had told her or was meant to be doing about the situation, or what was happening on a day-to-day basis in terms of paying for groceries, bills, mortgage etc. This was the last time I heard from her directly, besides a WhatsApp from her then-new phone number (since deactivated/changed) saying she was closing her Amazon account.
Obviously I am extremely freaked out by all of this. I know through my brother (who lives in the same neighborhood) that she is physically safe, continuing to go to her job, etc., but that is the extent of it. Because I know so little about identity theft/scams, it is hard to tell whether her refusal to communicate is rooted in paranoia, in a physical threat she is not telling me about (i.e., a life-threatening emergency necessitating me leaving my job), or in legitimate data-security concerns. Is this something law enforcement would have told her to do? She says she is not being stalked, but if that's the case, why refuse to communicate electronically?
The situation is complicated by the following factors:
- I, the eldest child and only daughter (i.e., the default Fixer Of Everything), actually live several thousand kilometres and several timezones away from Mom. I obviously am going to have to go over there to sort this out, since she refuses to respond to any communications, but between my job and COVID-related travel restrictions, the earliest I can possibly go out will be late summer, and I won't be able to stay very long.
- My siblings do live in the US, including the aforementioned brother who lives in her neighborhood. However, for reasons too tedious and complicated to get into, they are unlikely to be much practical help in the matter beyond ensuring her immediate physical safety.
- My mother has (largely untreated) anxiety and a somewhat complicated relationship with the truth. It can be very hard to get a complete picture of a problem until several long and stressful conversations have elapsed, usually because she's either exaggerating a given issue out of a fear of not being adequately supported OR else hiding its true severity out of, idk, probably a combination of shame and avoidance.
TL;DR: My main questions are:
- Is it worth involving a lawyer at this point? If so, what kind should I look into?
- Assuming the perpetrator was 'Dave' or whoever was acting through him, does this scam qualify as elder financial abuse given my mother's age?
- Do I have any standing to contact law enforcement regarding the (supposed) investigation? (I do not have power of attorney, so I think not.)
- I saw a couple of posts on the Green about products like IdentityGuard, and I'm planning to try to either have my brother set this up for our mother or, failing that, do it when I'm there. Are there any other products or services in this vein we should consider?
A heartfelt thank-you in advance to anyone who might be willing to share info or advice.
If you can verify that your mom is physically okay (which it sounds like you can, via your brother), you need to step back and stop trying to help unless and until your mother directly asks for your help.
Your mom is probably making mistakes and she may be causing herself a lot of (from your very understandable perspective) unnecessary hurt and anxiety and damage. However, your mom is an adult, and unless she is in danger or she asks for help, there’s not much you can do. Adults are allowed to fuck up their lives. It sucks, but it’s true.
Beyond that, while her reasons for cutting contact with you are probably suspect, she clearly doesn’t want you to contact her right now.
She’s safe. She doesn’t want to talk to you for whatever reason. She knows how to contact you. Take this opportunity to step back, and maybe explore ways to allow things to happen without feeling so much responsibility to protect people who didn’t ask for your help or protection.
posted by Kpele at 9:33 AM on May 16, 2021 [17 favorites]
Your mom is probably making mistakes and she may be causing herself a lot of (from your very understandable perspective) unnecessary hurt and anxiety and damage. However, your mom is an adult, and unless she is in danger or she asks for help, there’s not much you can do. Adults are allowed to fuck up their lives. It sucks, but it’s true.
Beyond that, while her reasons for cutting contact with you are probably suspect, she clearly doesn’t want you to contact her right now.
She’s safe. She doesn’t want to talk to you for whatever reason. She knows how to contact you. Take this opportunity to step back, and maybe explore ways to allow things to happen without feeling so much responsibility to protect people who didn’t ask for your help or protection.
posted by Kpele at 9:33 AM on May 16, 2021 [17 favorites]
I think you answer your own question on why she's not communicating with you.
She is "else hiding its true severity out of, idk, probably a combination of shame and avoidance."
posted by Fukiyama at 9:53 AM on May 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
She is "else hiding its true severity out of, idk, probably a combination of shame and avoidance."
posted by Fukiyama at 9:53 AM on May 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Adults are allowed to fuck up their lives. It sucks, but it’s true.
Also, in my experience, most people really strongly resent any unsolicited attempt by anybody else at forcibly unfucking their lives. Also sucks, also true.
saying she had had her identity stolen, that she had alerted the police and the FBI, that her accounts had been wiped out, and that she was changing all of her contact information including telephone number. She would not elaborate on what had happened ... I know through my brother (who lives in the same neighborhood) that she is physically safe, continuing to go to her job, etc., but that is the extent of it.
Sounds to me like she's got this. Or at least like she's got this to her own satisfaction. If I were in your shoes I'd leave it be.
posted by flabdablet at 9:57 AM on May 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
Also, in my experience, most people really strongly resent any unsolicited attempt by anybody else at forcibly unfucking their lives. Also sucks, also true.
saying she had had her identity stolen, that she had alerted the police and the FBI, that her accounts had been wiped out, and that she was changing all of her contact information including telephone number. She would not elaborate on what had happened ... I know through my brother (who lives in the same neighborhood) that she is physically safe, continuing to go to her job, etc., but that is the extent of it.
Sounds to me like she's got this. Or at least like she's got this to her own satisfaction. If I were in your shoes I'd leave it be.
posted by flabdablet at 9:57 AM on May 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
You know where she is, you know she is in contact with a relative in the area, you know that she is in relatively good physical health.
So, in terms of what you can do it's actually not much. This could be very much coming from a place of shame and trauma, being in debt, being conned, having ones identity stolen is very traumatizing. It could be indictative of domestic violence, abuse in which someone is living with her which would be more concerning BUT the only person to be able to confirm that would be your family in the area (and your mother) It could also be indictiative of declining mental status, some sort of dementia or other serious health condition impacting cognition. It's complicated in that tech is hard to understand, so sometimes without really being around the person it's hard to tell actions taken out of serious concern (my info was stolen and talking on the internet makes that happen so now I won't talk to my kids unless it is in person for safety or more literal paranoia that's not based in reality).
You aren't able to do much unless someone decides your mother is non desicional from a medical standpoint.
You could call an social service agency on aging for concerns of abuse, self neglect, etc. But if your mother refused to talk to them, or she presents well and says nothing wrong, they aren't going to do anything. But it's not the police.
There really doesn't sound like there are legal options you can take. You might try to see if your mom is interested in some sort of service like housekeeping which you pay the bill and somebody has eyes on your mother on a regular basis.
Also encouraging her to have a doctor who she knows well and is able to follow her over time would be useful if there has some sort of age related cognitive decline.
This is a hard place to be in.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:59 AM on May 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
So, in terms of what you can do it's actually not much. This could be very much coming from a place of shame and trauma, being in debt, being conned, having ones identity stolen is very traumatizing. It could be indictative of domestic violence, abuse in which someone is living with her which would be more concerning BUT the only person to be able to confirm that would be your family in the area (and your mother) It could also be indictiative of declining mental status, some sort of dementia or other serious health condition impacting cognition. It's complicated in that tech is hard to understand, so sometimes without really being around the person it's hard to tell actions taken out of serious concern (my info was stolen and talking on the internet makes that happen so now I won't talk to my kids unless it is in person for safety or more literal paranoia that's not based in reality).
You aren't able to do much unless someone decides your mother is non desicional from a medical standpoint.
You could call an social service agency on aging for concerns of abuse, self neglect, etc. But if your mother refused to talk to them, or she presents well and says nothing wrong, they aren't going to do anything. But it's not the police.
There really doesn't sound like there are legal options you can take. You might try to see if your mom is interested in some sort of service like housekeeping which you pay the bill and somebody has eyes on your mother on a regular basis.
Also encouraging her to have a doctor who she knows well and is able to follow her over time would be useful if there has some sort of age related cognitive decline.
This is a hard place to be in.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:59 AM on May 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'm going to guess your mother got scammed at length, got embarrassed, tried making up several stories to cover it up, and has just decided to go dark forever rather than face up to it - particularly the relative she owes all that money to.
I very strongly doubt there's any FBI involvement, or law enforcement of any kind, nor was there any identity theft. Just social engineering and handing over of passwords, borrowing money to give to 'Dave' and probably his entire call center of "family members" in crisis, which is likely why she keeps changing phone numbers.
There's not much you can do here. If you're willing to make a dramatic last stand, you can show up at her door and insist she tell you the entire truth and go see a doctor with you, but she could slam it in your face and tell you to fuck off and call the cops on you just as easily as she could break down in relief and let you help (emotionally - there's not much you can do about anything else). You could try to have her declared incompetent, but if she's still working you'd have a very hard time making that case. Possibly she is still being harassed and she may have been threatened, but I suspect she's invented an elaborate necessity to hide in plain sight from the personal debt. (And generally if you actually fear being "traced" or have been threatened you move out of the place you already live where anybody with a search engine could find you in less than a minute? Big BS flag there.)
You could maybe call the FBI in her area and tell them what you know and suspect, and they may or may not confirm if she has a case open and they may also be uninterested in opening one on your say-so if there's not. The ship has likely sailed.
Probably the only thing that would get your mom's attention at this point is if you and your brother swore to pretend it never happened, but there's still the issue of the money and also that's a little ludicrous.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:07 AM on May 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
I very strongly doubt there's any FBI involvement, or law enforcement of any kind, nor was there any identity theft. Just social engineering and handing over of passwords, borrowing money to give to 'Dave' and probably his entire call center of "family members" in crisis, which is likely why she keeps changing phone numbers.
There's not much you can do here. If you're willing to make a dramatic last stand, you can show up at her door and insist she tell you the entire truth and go see a doctor with you, but she could slam it in your face and tell you to fuck off and call the cops on you just as easily as she could break down in relief and let you help (emotionally - there's not much you can do about anything else). You could try to have her declared incompetent, but if she's still working you'd have a very hard time making that case. Possibly she is still being harassed and she may have been threatened, but I suspect she's invented an elaborate necessity to hide in plain sight from the personal debt. (And generally if you actually fear being "traced" or have been threatened you move out of the place you already live where anybody with a search engine could find you in less than a minute? Big BS flag there.)
You could maybe call the FBI in her area and tell them what you know and suspect, and they may or may not confirm if she has a case open and they may also be uninterested in opening one on your say-so if there's not. The ship has likely sailed.
Probably the only thing that would get your mom's attention at this point is if you and your brother swore to pretend it never happened, but there's still the issue of the money and also that's a little ludicrous.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:07 AM on May 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
If your mother did do the correct reporting steps, it is possible she did end up taking to the FBI, here is their page on that.
But making a report is way different than getting your money back, or charges being pressed. It's likely one of thousands of scams sitting in a file somewhere. If she didn't make a report it's likely the same result. Reporting is the first step to getting a crime prosecuted, but that just is not common in these cases unfortunately.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:23 AM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
But making a report is way different than getting your money back, or charges being pressed. It's likely one of thousands of scams sitting in a file somewhere. If she didn't make a report it's likely the same result. Reporting is the first step to getting a crime prosecuted, but that just is not common in these cases unfortunately.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:23 AM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you all very, very much for your responses so far.
I just wanted to clarify that I have been concerned about the no-contact thing because it is so out of character for her; for the past 10 years since I moved out of her area, we have texted several times a week and spoken at length on the phone at least once a month, and she has frequently expressed a desire to talk more often. But comments about her potentially being too embarrassed and/or having other completely legitimate reasons not to want to talk to me right now, and the need to respect that, are definitely well-taken.
I also realize that busybody adult children trying to seize control of their parents' lives is Not Okay on a number of levels. I'm really asking about steps/resources in order to understand what's possible should my mother either A) ask us to help her with this or B) turn out to be undergoing such a sharp decline in cognitive / mental health that it would endanger her well-being (though on reflection and after reading folks' responses, this seems less likely than it initially did). I did not make this at all clear in the initial Ask, sorry about that.
posted by peakes at 10:45 AM on May 16, 2021
I just wanted to clarify that I have been concerned about the no-contact thing because it is so out of character for her; for the past 10 years since I moved out of her area, we have texted several times a week and spoken at length on the phone at least once a month, and she has frequently expressed a desire to talk more often. But comments about her potentially being too embarrassed and/or having other completely legitimate reasons not to want to talk to me right now, and the need to respect that, are definitely well-taken.
I also realize that busybody adult children trying to seize control of their parents' lives is Not Okay on a number of levels. I'm really asking about steps/resources in order to understand what's possible should my mother either A) ask us to help her with this or B) turn out to be undergoing such a sharp decline in cognitive / mental health that it would endanger her well-being (though on reflection and after reading folks' responses, this seems less likely than it initially did). I did not make this at all clear in the initial Ask, sorry about that.
posted by peakes at 10:45 AM on May 16, 2021
If she asks for help in some concrete way, she'll need to go to law enforcement of some kind, and it is generally a better idea (even for a scam victim) to have a lawyer to do that, because many people are startled to find that law enforcement will absolutely be super shitty (not just re-traumatizing for fun, but sometimes there are subsequent scams that emerge from that contact) to a sad/scared/upset old lady in ways that they will maybe refrain from if there's legal representation present.
I don't know what kind of lawyer that is, exactly, though. It would be great if your brother, since he lives there, would do the legwork to figure out who in town would be best to have involved. That might end up being some kind of family/estate type person anyway, which might not be a bad idea to establish a relationship and maybe you can put down a little retainer to use for phone calls and letters if it comes to that.
I still don't have any faith in law enforcement doing anything or being able to do anything. That money's not coming back. Your mother likely did not maintain/ever obtain the kind of evidence that would be traceable back to anybody. In this situation, I'm not sure I'd bother filing anything unless the fact of having filed some kind of report would be useful if she's in danger of losing her home.
Otherwise if she asks for help, I think you just listen to what "help" means to her and work from there. If you think she needs intervention due to some emerging neurological situation, the whole ordeal is a whole lot easier if you can get her to a doctor and then neurologist voluntarily. That may mean being a little manipulative, creative with the truth, and/or willing to offer her something she wants in trade. Because the other option is generally somehow getting her to an emergency room and from there to an involuntary hold - but that hold still won't necessarily get her seen by a neurologist, which is the outcome you're going to want to aim for.
Try to get your brother some education in furtive cognitive assessment. Like, does he know how strokes or brain damage tend to be expressed in the face and body? Aside from obvious stroke-related facial paralysis, there are postures and arm movements that can be tells for some kind of brain or nerve injury, eye-twitching and verbal/vocal tics that are warning signs. I fear from your description of the family dynamic that when he tells you she seems physically fine he just means she more or less looks like she always does and isn't obviously falling over or struggling to speak, but if forced to consider it he might realize she is stuttering or having trouble finding words or her gait is not like it used to be.
This sucks and is real hard to watch, and it definitely creates an unscratchable itch to do something, anything, but you either have to decide to kind of go in guns blazing or wait for another shoe to drop.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:08 AM on May 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don't know what kind of lawyer that is, exactly, though. It would be great if your brother, since he lives there, would do the legwork to figure out who in town would be best to have involved. That might end up being some kind of family/estate type person anyway, which might not be a bad idea to establish a relationship and maybe you can put down a little retainer to use for phone calls and letters if it comes to that.
I still don't have any faith in law enforcement doing anything or being able to do anything. That money's not coming back. Your mother likely did not maintain/ever obtain the kind of evidence that would be traceable back to anybody. In this situation, I'm not sure I'd bother filing anything unless the fact of having filed some kind of report would be useful if she's in danger of losing her home.
Otherwise if she asks for help, I think you just listen to what "help" means to her and work from there. If you think she needs intervention due to some emerging neurological situation, the whole ordeal is a whole lot easier if you can get her to a doctor and then neurologist voluntarily. That may mean being a little manipulative, creative with the truth, and/or willing to offer her something she wants in trade. Because the other option is generally somehow getting her to an emergency room and from there to an involuntary hold - but that hold still won't necessarily get her seen by a neurologist, which is the outcome you're going to want to aim for.
Try to get your brother some education in furtive cognitive assessment. Like, does he know how strokes or brain damage tend to be expressed in the face and body? Aside from obvious stroke-related facial paralysis, there are postures and arm movements that can be tells for some kind of brain or nerve injury, eye-twitching and verbal/vocal tics that are warning signs. I fear from your description of the family dynamic that when he tells you she seems physically fine he just means she more or less looks like she always does and isn't obviously falling over or struggling to speak, but if forced to consider it he might realize she is stuttering or having trouble finding words or her gait is not like it used to be.
This sucks and is real hard to watch, and it definitely creates an unscratchable itch to do something, anything, but you either have to decide to kind of go in guns blazing or wait for another shoe to drop.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:08 AM on May 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
When I first read this, I wondered if after this scam, she was told of other forms of scam to avoid. In particular, the grandparent scam, which often involves a 'relative' calling from overseas. If she didn't fully understand the warning, she may have misunderstood and believe that it is unsafe to communicate with anyone overseas.
Or perhaps a scammer has used your identity to get money, so she thinks she has sent you money, or that you have asked her for money and that you may be in on the scam.
I don’t know if that's likely, but if so, you may not be able to sort this out from afar without assistance from someone local. Perhaps they could visit your mother and then call you? Her reaction to that idea may help you figure out if she has concerns around this. If it's a shame or other interpersonal issue, they may have to tread carefully, though.
posted by yuwtze at 11:22 AM on May 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Or perhaps a scammer has used your identity to get money, so she thinks she has sent you money, or that you have asked her for money and that you may be in on the scam.
I don’t know if that's likely, but if so, you may not be able to sort this out from afar without assistance from someone local. Perhaps they could visit your mother and then call you? Her reaction to that idea may help you figure out if she has concerns around this. If it's a shame or other interpersonal issue, they may have to tread carefully, though.
posted by yuwtze at 11:22 AM on May 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
I know that Mefi always comes down on the side of autonomy, and usually I agree, but there is a basic fact here that seems to be being overlooked: if Mom has lost all her money and indeed gone into substantial debt (and who knows how much more, or to whom), unless she's working at a very well-paid job (seems unlikely), she is going to require significant financial support whenever she stops working, and probably before that. (E.g., what happens if her car breaks down, or the roof falls in?) The family needs to know because the family needs to plan, unless the family is committed to letting her take autonomy into eating-cat-food land.
If she's still working, she's probably not in the throes of dementia. And I don't think the theft situation is fixable. Unfortunately, this kind of scam happens constantly. The FBI/local law enforcement aren't going to devote the resources needed to solve it, and the money's gone anyways. So accept that she doesn't need immediate "rescue." But you do need to work gently and respectfully on keeping open lines of communications with your mom with a view towards eventually finding out what's happened. It doesn't sound like she actually told you not to contact her again (yes?), so...you have her address. Send nice, cute, funny cards--whatever she would find nonthreatening. Don't talk about the scam. Just update her on your life. (Are there grandkids? Lean heavily on news of the grandkids.) Send her nice but not extravagant presents on the appropriate cultural occasions. When the time comes, tell her you'd love to visit. That sort of thing. All with an eye to visiting, being totally nonjudgmental, and hoping the story comes out sooner rather than when you're getting an emergency request for $23,000 to fix the roof.
posted by praemunire at 11:33 AM on May 16, 2021 [25 favorites]
If she's still working, she's probably not in the throes of dementia. And I don't think the theft situation is fixable. Unfortunately, this kind of scam happens constantly. The FBI/local law enforcement aren't going to devote the resources needed to solve it, and the money's gone anyways. So accept that she doesn't need immediate "rescue." But you do need to work gently and respectfully on keeping open lines of communications with your mom with a view towards eventually finding out what's happened. It doesn't sound like she actually told you not to contact her again (yes?), so...you have her address. Send nice, cute, funny cards--whatever she would find nonthreatening. Don't talk about the scam. Just update her on your life. (Are there grandkids? Lean heavily on news of the grandkids.) Send her nice but not extravagant presents on the appropriate cultural occasions. When the time comes, tell her you'd love to visit. That sort of thing. All with an eye to visiting, being totally nonjudgmental, and hoping the story comes out sooner rather than when you're getting an emergency request for $23,000 to fix the roof.
posted by praemunire at 11:33 AM on May 16, 2021 [25 favorites]
For context, I’m a few years younger than your mom. Most people here will disagree with me, but personally, what I would do is simply show up as soon as was feasible. Your mom is most likely dealing with a lot of shame, but there could also be something more going on. You’ll never know until you see her in person. And either way, it needs to be dealt with. So I would just show up, and tell her you were worried. She may be defensive, she may be overcome with shame, but you know what? That will all pass. This is family. Family is who you can count on when everyone else doesn’t want to be bothered. Whatever happened needs to be out in the open and dealt with, so you and your mother can enjoy her remaining years. Your mother clearly needs help, whether it’s physical, emotional, financial, or all three. She normally wants to be in contact with you often; the fact that she’s gone no-contact is all the evidence you need that something is very wrong.
You don’t want to find out ten years from now that she desperately needed your help, but didn’t know how to ask. This is not the time to worry about social niceties and appearances. This is an a emergency, and potentially a serious one.
Do what needs to be done.
As a side note, I would also have a serious “come to Jesus” conversion with your siblings, especially the one who lives near your mother, about responsibility and acting like a damn adult, and not foisting things off on other people. I can tell you from personal experience that when Big Sister puts her foot down, little brothers often get their shit together.
posted by MexicanYenta at 12:15 PM on May 16, 2021 [33 favorites]
You don’t want to find out ten years from now that she desperately needed your help, but didn’t know how to ask. This is not the time to worry about social niceties and appearances. This is an a emergency, and potentially a serious one.
Do what needs to be done.
As a side note, I would also have a serious “come to Jesus” conversion with your siblings, especially the one who lives near your mother, about responsibility and acting like a damn adult, and not foisting things off on other people. I can tell you from personal experience that when Big Sister puts her foot down, little brothers often get their shit together.
posted by MexicanYenta at 12:15 PM on May 16, 2021 [33 favorites]
You last heard directly from your mom in December, and it's now May. Do any of your relatives living in her area (your brother, for example) visit her, or have her visit them? Have someone call you and put her on the line while they're together. At this point, you just want to hear her voice. If your family is reluctant to do that much, call her at her job.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:56 PM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:56 PM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Are you sure “Dave” is really out of her life?
Scammers separate victims from families. They tell them what to say.
posted by spitbull at 6:37 PM on May 16, 2021 [9 favorites]
Scammers separate victims from families. They tell them what to say.
posted by spitbull at 6:37 PM on May 16, 2021 [9 favorites]
Lots of good words here. I think your mom might need some education. My MIL never fully admitted her scams, she still can't seem to recognize that the online romance scammers who she was involved with (extensively...for several years!) were just scammers and that she did not have a 'relationship' with them. She did not, in fact, know their real names or their real jobs (not on a oil rig!), or their family members' names or their pets' names. She was sure that she could travel to their home in another state and knock on their door to demand her money back despite Google Maps being unable to locate any residence at those addresses.
It is actually quite possible that your mom is still being scammed. Once my MIL was hooked in with one scammer, it seems that she got passed around as a "lead" to other scammers. It was an incredibly bizarre experience. The only way we know the half of it is that we were able to, in the course of helping her, get access to her email and f'book accounts and go through and look for correspondence. We monitored her texts for a time to see who was contacting her and block them. We have since stopped this intense monitoring...which means she is vulnerable once again. But, we do have control of her finances and while she could, once again, get scammed...she'd have to try just a little bit harder to actually give everything she has left away. She also borrowed money from family and burned bridges with those people and some friends. She liquidated her retirement accounts. All in all, she gave away approximately $40k.
Okay, but back to education.... first thing is re-establishing contact - can your brother go over to her house, call you on his phone and put you on? I agree with you that this contact dropping is worrisome. You are her daughter! Once you've established contact, find out what her specific worries are with contacting you again. Maybe you can get her a "burner" phone which lives at the house. Maybe a landline if that's possible where she is? AARP has a whole section on online safety for seniors and all the scams - including an entertaining podcast and apparently a book! (I might need to send that to my MIL.) If there's a trusted person in her orbit where she can talk through what is and isn't safe, that would be great. She might just need education and some reassurance that it is possible to be safe.
So, once you've established contact - make sure you understand the typical romance scam. I forwarded some of this info to my MIL as well as posted about it extensively on my f'book page (which she reads constantly and that's where the scamming started!). It's important for victims to know and for the folks that are trying to help that 1) these scams are incredibly common, 2) these scammers are professional scammers! This is their job and they do it very, very well. 3) Most of these originate outside the U.S. and we have little jurisdiction over them. You absolutely should report but there is no criminal or retributive resolution that is likely to happen. In fact, this is one of the insidious things about these scams - with no criminal resolution, there is no closure and that actually leaves you vulnerable to getting scammed again. You think if you keep talking and engaging with these scammers you'll regain some control, some pride and maybe even get your money back. It's a good thing she's changed her number but it's a bad thing she has cut you off.
Before your update, I was going to advise that you step back and wipe your hands of the issue. Dealing with this with my MIL was a nightmare and a slog. But I see that this cutoff in contact is outside of the norm. The thing is, you can't go in guns-a-blazing here. You need to just reestablish contact and then see if you can figure out what's going on. What's most important is that she is safe. Talk to her somehow and make a plan to visit. Once you are there in person, it will be easier to assess her situation and provide her with some help and some tools. Have her tested for cognitive decline. My MIL was hoarding, living with rats, gave all her money away and the doctor says mentally she's fine. So, don't expect much help their either. Trustworthy communication is your best bet. Just recently, my MIL asked her son about an app she wanted to put on her phone but she wasn't sure if it would really make it safer or if it was just a scam. That was a MASSIVE step in a positive direction for her - to ask for help or a second opinion before acting. Good luck!
posted by amanda at 7:27 PM on May 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
It is actually quite possible that your mom is still being scammed. Once my MIL was hooked in with one scammer, it seems that she got passed around as a "lead" to other scammers. It was an incredibly bizarre experience. The only way we know the half of it is that we were able to, in the course of helping her, get access to her email and f'book accounts and go through and look for correspondence. We monitored her texts for a time to see who was contacting her and block them. We have since stopped this intense monitoring...which means she is vulnerable once again. But, we do have control of her finances and while she could, once again, get scammed...she'd have to try just a little bit harder to actually give everything she has left away. She also borrowed money from family and burned bridges with those people and some friends. She liquidated her retirement accounts. All in all, she gave away approximately $40k.
Okay, but back to education.... first thing is re-establishing contact - can your brother go over to her house, call you on his phone and put you on? I agree with you that this contact dropping is worrisome. You are her daughter! Once you've established contact, find out what her specific worries are with contacting you again. Maybe you can get her a "burner" phone which lives at the house. Maybe a landline if that's possible where she is? AARP has a whole section on online safety for seniors and all the scams - including an entertaining podcast and apparently a book! (I might need to send that to my MIL.) If there's a trusted person in her orbit where she can talk through what is and isn't safe, that would be great. She might just need education and some reassurance that it is possible to be safe.
So, once you've established contact - make sure you understand the typical romance scam. I forwarded some of this info to my MIL as well as posted about it extensively on my f'book page (which she reads constantly and that's where the scamming started!). It's important for victims to know and for the folks that are trying to help that 1) these scams are incredibly common, 2) these scammers are professional scammers! This is their job and they do it very, very well. 3) Most of these originate outside the U.S. and we have little jurisdiction over them. You absolutely should report but there is no criminal or retributive resolution that is likely to happen. In fact, this is one of the insidious things about these scams - with no criminal resolution, there is no closure and that actually leaves you vulnerable to getting scammed again. You think if you keep talking and engaging with these scammers you'll regain some control, some pride and maybe even get your money back. It's a good thing she's changed her number but it's a bad thing she has cut you off.
Before your update, I was going to advise that you step back and wipe your hands of the issue. Dealing with this with my MIL was a nightmare and a slog. But I see that this cutoff in contact is outside of the norm. The thing is, you can't go in guns-a-blazing here. You need to just reestablish contact and then see if you can figure out what's going on. What's most important is that she is safe. Talk to her somehow and make a plan to visit. Once you are there in person, it will be easier to assess her situation and provide her with some help and some tools. Have her tested for cognitive decline. My MIL was hoarding, living with rats, gave all her money away and the doctor says mentally she's fine. So, don't expect much help their either. Trustworthy communication is your best bet. Just recently, my MIL asked her son about an app she wanted to put on her phone but she wasn't sure if it would really make it safer or if it was just a scam. That was a MASSIVE step in a positive direction for her - to ask for help or a second opinion before acting. Good luck!
posted by amanda at 7:27 PM on May 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
More on scams from AARP. You can have your mother contact their helpline if you want her to have some one-on-one conversation about what is safe activity on her cellphone - 877-908-3360. The podcast. More on romance scams from the FTC. More on romance scams.
I also shared all this info with my own mother. She would always "tut-tut" about how she'd never fall for that stuff. That's total BS! But I really wanted her to have the information and I shared it with her in the guise of being able to educate her friends and to keep an eye out for this stuff so that she can be a helper in her community. I think that is a good approach and I wish more folks would educate their vulnerable family members before it happens to them.
posted by amanda at 7:41 PM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
I also shared all this info with my own mother. She would always "tut-tut" about how she'd never fall for that stuff. That's total BS! But I really wanted her to have the information and I shared it with her in the guise of being able to educate her friends and to keep an eye out for this stuff so that she can be a helper in her community. I think that is a good approach and I wish more folks would educate their vulnerable family members before it happens to them.
posted by amanda at 7:41 PM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Many years ago (more than 5 for sure), I wrote an article on how romance scams break hearts and empty accounts. Unfortunately, it was pretty clear that your mom was a victim of a sophisticated online romance scam, where a series of fake photos and sweet words were used to trick your mom into trusting the scammer, to slowly gain access to her finances, and/or to solicit her for a "temporary loan". All the stuff you described, (never met in person, always an emergency to prevent that) are all signs of such a scam.
There are tons of information on how a romance scam works, so I won't go over it in detail. You can read it on the FTC, FBI, US military, and various state attorney generals' websites, not to mention various non-law-affiliated ones.
Your mom is trying to cover up the problem out of embarrassment and can't correct the problem because she won't admit it exists. As others suggested, have a family intervention that includes her best friends and/or religious leaders if need be. Report it to the authorities, even if nothing can be done.
There are also several Dr. Phil episodes on being catfished / romance scammed if you all can encourage her to review the stuff in private, not to embarrass her, but to show that these are PROFESSIONAL SCAMMERS (yes, more than one) working in groups out to get her (and many others), and they play a LONG game, juggling dozens of profiles at the same time.
If necessary, you may show her people that suffered even worse, including being kidnapped, murdered, or committed suicide. (Yes, they all happened, from romance scams).
Losing money is serious, but it's more important that she's okay.
Good luck.
posted by kschang at 7:46 PM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
There are tons of information on how a romance scam works, so I won't go over it in detail. You can read it on the FTC, FBI, US military, and various state attorney generals' websites, not to mention various non-law-affiliated ones.
Your mom is trying to cover up the problem out of embarrassment and can't correct the problem because she won't admit it exists. As others suggested, have a family intervention that includes her best friends and/or religious leaders if need be. Report it to the authorities, even if nothing can be done.
There are also several Dr. Phil episodes on being catfished / romance scammed if you all can encourage her to review the stuff in private, not to embarrass her, but to show that these are PROFESSIONAL SCAMMERS (yes, more than one) working in groups out to get her (and many others), and they play a LONG game, juggling dozens of profiles at the same time.
If necessary, you may show her people that suffered even worse, including being kidnapped, murdered, or committed suicide. (Yes, they all happened, from romance scams).
Losing money is serious, but it's more important that she's okay.
Good luck.
posted by kschang at 7:46 PM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
My only knowledge of this is reading articles about common scams in various newspapers and consumer protection magazines.But I am more worried about this than some other posters seem to be because:
• Once somebody has been scammed once, they become vulnerable to a follow-up scam where somebody contacts them pretending to help them recover their lost assets;
• It is inconceivable to me that a legitimate law enforcement officer would advise her to cut contact with the specific family member who is most helpful in bad situations;
• It is very conceivable that a scammer pretending to be a law enforcement officer would try to cut her off from a family member who might see through the scam.
Again, I am not an expert, and I'm not really sure what concrete steps you should take. But based on what you said, I would not treat this as a situation where she was scammed in the past and now she's embarrassed about it and you should just politely drop it. I would treat this as a situation where she may be the victim of a current, ongoing scam that is deliberately cutting her off from potential sources of help.
posted by yankeefog at 5:04 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
• Once somebody has been scammed once, they become vulnerable to a follow-up scam where somebody contacts them pretending to help them recover their lost assets;
• It is inconceivable to me that a legitimate law enforcement officer would advise her to cut contact with the specific family member who is most helpful in bad situations;
• It is very conceivable that a scammer pretending to be a law enforcement officer would try to cut her off from a family member who might see through the scam.
Again, I am not an expert, and I'm not really sure what concrete steps you should take. But based on what you said, I would not treat this as a situation where she was scammed in the past and now she's embarrassed about it and you should just politely drop it. I would treat this as a situation where she may be the victim of a current, ongoing scam that is deliberately cutting her off from potential sources of help.
posted by yankeefog at 5:04 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don't think you should leave your mom alone to struggle through this all by herself. You know her, you love her, you care about her, and you know she might be in serious trouble still, at this very moment. This is not the time to say, "Boundaries," in a prim voice and refuse to lift a finger until you are invited to. This is the time to help your loved one in any way you can until such time that they explicitly ask you to stop.
So, to that end:
1. Can you rally any troops on the ground to be your conduit with your mother? Maybe your brother who lives in the same neighborhood (!!!) could visit her and you might call his phone during his visit to speak to your mom? Or perhaps she could be invited out to a picnic lunch with some other relative or family friend in her locality - you could even pay for it! - at some neutral and peaceful open area, like a beloved park that you have been to with her, and again, you might be able to use the relative's phone to speak with her?
2. Works best if this is done on a special occasion such as a birthday, mother's day, anniversary, etc. But even otherwise, you might be able to tell her it's just a surprise from her daughter, for no reason, or to celebrate the end of Covid.
3 When you do speak to her, at least the first couple of times, keep it warm, tell her you adore her, keep it light, find concrete things to compliment her for -- especially things that emphasize how competent she is, and try to make a firm date for your next conversation. Don't ask her to open up until the third or fourth time you speak.
4. One of the best ways to get her to open up is for you to ask her for help with something you have fucked up. Say you made a huge mistake at work and you're about to get fired. Tell her your relationship is in trouble. If you don't want to lie, try radical honesty and share a genuine argument you've had recently with your SO or a genuine failure you have had to face in your own life recently. Ask her for help. This will help her reconnect to you, as well as connect with her own competence.. plus your vulnerability could help her trust you enough to become vulnerable herself.
5. If she still won't talk to you, then you might truly need to drop everything and show up at her door. Give these strategies a little time... 3-4 weeks at most. If within that time you still can't get her to speak with you on the phone on a regular basis (even if it is through other people's phones), then the situation is truly dire. You need to respond accordingly.
posted by MiraK at 6:15 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
So, to that end:
1. Can you rally any troops on the ground to be your conduit with your mother? Maybe your brother who lives in the same neighborhood (!!!) could visit her and you might call his phone during his visit to speak to your mom? Or perhaps she could be invited out to a picnic lunch with some other relative or family friend in her locality - you could even pay for it! - at some neutral and peaceful open area, like a beloved park that you have been to with her, and again, you might be able to use the relative's phone to speak with her?
2. Works best if this is done on a special occasion such as a birthday, mother's day, anniversary, etc. But even otherwise, you might be able to tell her it's just a surprise from her daughter, for no reason, or to celebrate the end of Covid.
3 When you do speak to her, at least the first couple of times, keep it warm, tell her you adore her, keep it light, find concrete things to compliment her for -- especially things that emphasize how competent she is, and try to make a firm date for your next conversation. Don't ask her to open up until the third or fourth time you speak.
4. One of the best ways to get her to open up is for you to ask her for help with something you have fucked up. Say you made a huge mistake at work and you're about to get fired. Tell her your relationship is in trouble. If you don't want to lie, try radical honesty and share a genuine argument you've had recently with your SO or a genuine failure you have had to face in your own life recently. Ask her for help. This will help her reconnect to you, as well as connect with her own competence.. plus your vulnerability could help her trust you enough to become vulnerable herself.
5. If she still won't talk to you, then you might truly need to drop everything and show up at her door. Give these strategies a little time... 3-4 weeks at most. If within that time you still can't get her to speak with you on the phone on a regular basis (even if it is through other people's phones), then the situation is truly dire. You need to respond accordingly.
posted by MiraK at 6:15 AM on May 17, 2021 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
You can use netflix to see what IP address someone used when they connected, and get a rough idea of their location.
posted by theora55 at 9:21 AM on May 16, 2021