Insurance beyond my comprehension
March 17, 2021 10:07 AM Subscribe
My mother passed way in December. She has an astronomical amount of insurance on her apartment and its contents from the highest end insurance company for no reason, she just had it and the annual cost is substantial.
The policy will need to be renewed in April. I have been told by two insurance brokers that I cannot get a new policy written because A: the apartment is in probate and executor ship has not been legally established, but even if it had, if it is not going to have a full time resident, no insurance company will accept the policy.
My current plan is to pay on a monthly installment and get out of it as soon as I can, but even the monthly installment will be more than $500. It seems a bit insane that I do not have alternatives and wanted some feedback from the meta-mind
This is what both insurance brokers have said:
I do not have a market willing to provide coverage for a non-owner occupied unit without the support of a primary residence. Other factors that will preclude me from my markets (Chubb, PURE, AIG, etc) is the potential renovations/repairs and listing for sale in the near future.
I suggest working with your current insurer to provide coverage and/or extend liability to this location this will be the easiest and most cost effective method to proceed. The other option is going to the secondary market like Lloyd’s of London where pricing is quite high.
The policy will need to be renewed in April. I have been told by two insurance brokers that I cannot get a new policy written because A: the apartment is in probate and executor ship has not been legally established, but even if it had, if it is not going to have a full time resident, no insurance company will accept the policy.
My current plan is to pay on a monthly installment and get out of it as soon as I can, but even the monthly installment will be more than $500. It seems a bit insane that I do not have alternatives and wanted some feedback from the meta-mind
This is what both insurance brokers have said:
I do not have a market willing to provide coverage for a non-owner occupied unit without the support of a primary residence. Other factors that will preclude me from my markets (Chubb, PURE, AIG, etc) is the potential renovations/repairs and listing for sale in the near future.
I suggest working with your current insurer to provide coverage and/or extend liability to this location this will be the easiest and most cost effective method to proceed. The other option is going to the secondary market like Lloyd’s of London where pricing is quite high.
A couple of clarifying questions first:
Did your mom own the apartment or rent?
If she owned, does she have a mortgage?
If she rents, is renters insurance one of the terms in the lease?
Do you have an idea of when the executorship will be established?
What state is the apartment in?
The “ if it is not going to have a full time resident, no insurance company will accept the policy” part triggers my BS detector - people insure second homes all the time. But I’d need to know the answers to the above questions before giving advice.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:37 AM on March 17, 2021 [11 favorites]
Did your mom own the apartment or rent?
If she owned, does she have a mortgage?
If she rents, is renters insurance one of the terms in the lease?
Do you have an idea of when the executorship will be established?
What state is the apartment in?
The “ if it is not going to have a full time resident, no insurance company will accept the policy” part triggers my BS detector - people insure second homes all the time. But I’d need to know the answers to the above questions before giving advice.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:37 AM on March 17, 2021 [11 favorites]
(I work in the insurance industry, BTW.)
posted by kevinbelt at 10:38 AM on March 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 10:38 AM on March 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
I do not work in the insurance industry, but I do have two homes. Kevinbelt is absolutely right that you can get insurance for a home that does not have a full-time occupant. I've done it. I will say, it was fairly difficult to find a carrier who would do it without being the same carrier on our primary home, though. Most of them really wanted to bundle it up before they'd consider it. Eventually we found one (long story why we didn't want them to be the same). They exist. You might just need to find another broker. But I can see how the other complicating factors might make it even harder.
posted by primethyme at 11:04 AM on March 17, 2021
posted by primethyme at 11:04 AM on March 17, 2021
Do you have any existing relationship with any insurance company for any kind of property (car, renters, etc.)? There are insurers who will accept policies for a home with no full-time occupant. I have done so also, once while I was renovating an empty apartment. It helped that I had an existing insurance policy with the insurer for my car and the apartment I was renting during the renovation.
It might be more complicated if you're in a different state than your mother's apartment, but it depends on the insurer.
posted by bedhead at 11:12 AM on March 17, 2021
It might be more complicated if you're in a different state than your mother's apartment, but it depends on the insurer.
posted by bedhead at 11:12 AM on March 17, 2021
If this is an owned unit, what my family did in a similar situation was find someone who was willing to house-sit in exchange for free housing. It wasn't an ideal situation, but the house took a long time to sell and having it occupied was better than the alternative. (That being said, letting someone establish residency can be an issue down the line - my family was fortunate to have someone they could trust - and of course it wouldn't solve the probate situation.)
posted by pie ninja at 11:14 AM on March 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by pie ninja at 11:14 AM on March 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's been several years, but I was in the past able to get insurance on an unoccupied home. That said, it was significantly more expensive than insurance on the same home while occupied was, in theory because no one was going to be there to keep an eye on the house and keep it safe. So you might want to be prepared for that option not actually getting you the lowered expense that you want even if you can find someone willing to do the insurance, and be thinking about a Plan B - house sitter, reducing the existing insurance if possible, etc.
posted by Stacey at 11:16 AM on March 17, 2021
posted by Stacey at 11:16 AM on March 17, 2021
Response by poster: I was able to reduce the insurance to its minimal, but because it is such a high end policy it is still 5K a year. It is a co-op on the Upper West Side of NYC and shares are owned outright. They dont have a mandatory insurance in the in the by-laws, but the building just made a 4 million dollar claim because someone early on in the pandemic left a faucet on and left town and the resulting water damage went all the way to the lobby. They are just now finishing that up and supposedly they want to have at least 1 million in liability be the requirement. I live out of state and have all my insurance with AAA.
posted by silsurf at 11:40 AM on March 17, 2021
posted by silsurf at 11:40 AM on March 17, 2021
Response by poster: We are asking about executor ship, but there has been no response, so I really have no idea when that will kick in
posted by silsurf at 11:41 AM on March 17, 2021
posted by silsurf at 11:41 AM on March 17, 2021
Response by poster: Just to put a price on it. Her policy was $7500 a year and now it is $5100. Call me crazy, but as a sixty year old who has lived and owned homes in multiple states, that just sounds bonkers. Small apartment, she had artwork that has been removed, but still nothing that necessitated the 12 page fine art rider on her policy.
posted by silsurf at 11:45 AM on March 17, 2021
posted by silsurf at 11:45 AM on March 17, 2021
It does seem a little high, although... NYC *shrug*. In addition to the liability coverage (which probably isn't the main driver of the premium), what are the dwelling and personal property coverages? (It might say "coverage A" and "coverage B" instead of dwelling or personal property.)
posted by kevinbelt at 11:56 AM on March 17, 2021
posted by kevinbelt at 11:56 AM on March 17, 2021
I'm in a 2 br pre-war co-op in Brooklyn, which obviously isn't exactly apples to apples but my homeowners policy is under $1000 a year from State Farm. My broker is actually on the UWS though, happy to send you his info.
I have $500k in liability + what was my best guess to replace the interior finishings in case of a total fire (a few hundred k in 'building property', keeping in mind the co-op is responsible for replacing the structure/walls/subfloors in case the building was totally destroyed) plus some personal property coverage (I don't really have anything of note there).
$5k seems a little crazy.
posted by jourman2 at 12:19 PM on March 17, 2021
I have $500k in liability + what was my best guess to replace the interior finishings in case of a total fire (a few hundred k in 'building property', keeping in mind the co-op is responsible for replacing the structure/walls/subfloors in case the building was totally destroyed) plus some personal property coverage (I don't really have anything of note there).
$5k seems a little crazy.
posted by jourman2 at 12:19 PM on March 17, 2021
I used to work for a company that was a competitor to the ones you list and was bought out by one of them.
Based on that - who is the insurance agent who wrote the policy? These companies are known as "high net worth" companies who won't write just anybody. There has to be an underwriting trigger that caused her to get such a policy - the artwork, for instance - standard homeowners insurance companies won't touch that much fancy artwork, but it's pretty routine for the high net worth companies. Not necessarily the two insurance brokers you spoke to - which agent's name is on the policy itself? These companies don't write direct; there must be an agent.
$5100 doesn't seem outrageous to me, given the info.
Note: I've been out of the insurance world for 7 years, so my contacts and info are a bit old.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 12:28 PM on March 17, 2021
Based on that - who is the insurance agent who wrote the policy? These companies are known as "high net worth" companies who won't write just anybody. There has to be an underwriting trigger that caused her to get such a policy - the artwork, for instance - standard homeowners insurance companies won't touch that much fancy artwork, but it's pretty routine for the high net worth companies. Not necessarily the two insurance brokers you spoke to - which agent's name is on the policy itself? These companies don't write direct; there must be an agent.
$5100 doesn't seem outrageous to me, given the info.
Note: I've been out of the insurance world for 7 years, so my contacts and info are a bit old.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 12:28 PM on March 17, 2021
I guess I didn't understand if you were trying to renew that policy or get a different one. Can you clarify that?
posted by Ms Vegetable at 12:35 PM on March 17, 2021
posted by Ms Vegetable at 12:35 PM on March 17, 2021
Response by poster: It is Chubb Masterpiece and she had high net worth policy for artwork, but it has all been removed from the apartment.
posted by silsurf at 12:36 PM on March 17, 2021
posted by silsurf at 12:36 PM on March 17, 2021
Ok. So Chubb is expensive. Removing the artwork from the apartment doesn't necessarily remove it from the policy. If it has been sold, donated, etc, and you can prove that with paperwork, Chubb should let you remove the fine art rider and continue with "basic" coverage (as basic as Chubb gets, which is still quite high, which might be why you're still getting $5100 for annual premium).
Chubb is the insurance company. Is there an insurance agency listed on the policy? This might be one of the two brokers you've called. Agencies can also be brokers. It's like the sales department. Like Walmart would be the agency, but Perdue chicken brand would be the company. Which I acknowledge is not a great comparison.
Calling the agency listed on the policy should let you renew it/change it/even if it's unoccupied. It sounds like you may have done this to get the price down to $5100.
If this isn't working for you, I'd call the state department of insurance. In New York, it looks like that is the Department of Financial Services. They should be able to help you find an insurance agent and company who is licensed to write this. I know, government, not always helpful, but Departments of Insurance are very consumer-friendly.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 12:46 PM on March 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Chubb is the insurance company. Is there an insurance agency listed on the policy? This might be one of the two brokers you've called. Agencies can also be brokers. It's like the sales department. Like Walmart would be the agency, but Perdue chicken brand would be the company. Which I acknowledge is not a great comparison.
Calling the agency listed on the policy should let you renew it/change it/even if it's unoccupied. It sounds like you may have done this to get the price down to $5100.
If this isn't working for you, I'd call the state department of insurance. In New York, it looks like that is the Department of Financial Services. They should be able to help you find an insurance agent and company who is licensed to write this. I know, government, not always helpful, but Departments of Insurance are very consumer-friendly.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 12:46 PM on March 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Yes, the broker was able to remove all the fine art, etc and that is how it went down to $5100. Thanks for the Department of Financial Services info, that sounds promising
posted by silsurf at 1:19 PM on March 17, 2021
posted by silsurf at 1:19 PM on March 17, 2021
One more idea:
From the brief looking I did, some of the Chubb agencies also write mid-level insurance companies, like Travelers, the Hartford, Hanover. I'm not sure which of those (if any) will write a non-owner-occupied home, but this is not an absurd request. There are also agencies who don't write Chubb and other high net worth companies, but will write the mid-level companies. It sounds like you're looking for one of them. I don't ever recall seeing "might list for sale soon" as a question an insurer would ask, and I find that weird.
I really don't know about the probate/executorship question, so I can't help there.
I hope the DFS is helpful for you. Good luck.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 1:33 PM on March 17, 2021
From the brief looking I did, some of the Chubb agencies also write mid-level insurance companies, like Travelers, the Hartford, Hanover. I'm not sure which of those (if any) will write a non-owner-occupied home, but this is not an absurd request. There are also agencies who don't write Chubb and other high net worth companies, but will write the mid-level companies. It sounds like you're looking for one of them. I don't ever recall seeing "might list for sale soon" as a question an insurer would ask, and I find that weird.
I really don't know about the probate/executorship question, so I can't help there.
I hope the DFS is helpful for you. Good luck.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 1:33 PM on March 17, 2021
For a co-op in NYC with $1m in personal liability coverage and minimal personal belongings, you should be able to get something significantly less expensive than that. I have used these folks with success in the past and I would recommend them. They write policies for a number of insurers. I don't use them anymore, because I got insurance through USAA (which is also awesome but has some membership criteria).
I will nth that Chubb is expensive compared to most homeowners policies. They will insure some very high-value items that other insurers will not, such as high-end art and rare watches and stuff, but if you don't need that, you should be able to shop around.
If there is a will that names an executor, the Surrogate's Court should be relatively straightforward in appointing the executor. (That said, it may be slower than usual right now due to the pandemic.) If you don't have an attorney dealing with this process already, please feel free to MeMail me for a recommendation.
posted by bedhead at 2:20 PM on March 17, 2021
I will nth that Chubb is expensive compared to most homeowners policies. They will insure some very high-value items that other insurers will not, such as high-end art and rare watches and stuff, but if you don't need that, you should be able to shop around.
If there is a will that names an executor, the Surrogate's Court should be relatively straightforward in appointing the executor. (That said, it may be slower than usual right now due to the pandemic.) If you don't have an attorney dealing with this process already, please feel free to MeMail me for a recommendation.
posted by bedhead at 2:20 PM on March 17, 2021
Response by poster: the executors are named and our lawyer has written more than one inquiry as to then things might happen. There has been no response as of yet. It has been about 6 weeks.
posted by silsurf at 6:13 PM on March 17, 2021
posted by silsurf at 6:13 PM on March 17, 2021
Yes, $5,100/yr is a ridiculous amount, even for Chubb in NYC. In my experience, if you tell an insurer that you're prepared to let the policy lapse, they'll find a way to a lower price. Have you tried playing that sort of (modest) hardball with them?
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 8:38 PM on March 17, 2021
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 8:38 PM on March 17, 2021
Response by poster: Absolutely, I could not have been more blunt. I have no intention of continuing the policy at even the new and improved lower price. It seems to have had no effect.
posted by silsurf at 8:59 PM on March 17, 2021
posted by silsurf at 8:59 PM on March 17, 2021
Response by poster: Just to archive.
Was able to get a more reasonable policy from a new carrier (USLI) through a broker that was suggested here! Thanks.
Also received indeed helpful info from Dept of Financial Services and if I had not been able to get a new policy written, they had alternative methods of obtaining coverage, which again was very helpful to hear and info sorted fro this thread.
Thanks again to all!
posted by silsurf at 12:41 PM on April 16, 2021
Was able to get a more reasonable policy from a new carrier (USLI) through a broker that was suggested here! Thanks.
Also received indeed helpful info from Dept of Financial Services and if I had not been able to get a new policy written, they had alternative methods of obtaining coverage, which again was very helpful to hear and info sorted fro this thread.
Thanks again to all!
posted by silsurf at 12:41 PM on April 16, 2021
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posted by dum spiro spero at 10:13 AM on March 17, 2021