What do I need to know about Victorian conversion flats
February 12, 2021 2:38 PM Subscribe
I have fallen in love with an Victorian conversion flat, but living in a property like this was never the plan. I only know bad things about living in flats like these, that they are money-pits, that they're draughty, etc. But this place is affordable, convenient, and just feels good. What should I know before taking the next step?
I only know bad things about living in Victorian conversion flats:
- They are old and require constant maintenance
- They are draughty, and replacing the old windows will bankrupt you, but if you replace them with new uPVC windows, you will lower their resale value
- You can hear everything in the flats above/below/on either side
- If you live on the top floor you are liable for expensive roof repair work (even if you don't own the freehold)
- If you live on the bottom floor you are liable for expensive foundation work (even if you don't own the freehold)
- You will probably get mice.
But I went to look at a top floor conversion flat recently in North London and it was the nicest place I have seen. The lease was long. The place is affordable. The neighbourhood is nice. The flat was lovely - it felt good from the minute I stepped in. It felt warm and welcoming, the huge windows let in a ton of light, the walls and floor felt solid.
Should I start investigating places like these more seriously, even if this particular place doesn't come through? (This would make it easier for me. There's a whole difficulty now with buying purpose-built apartments in a block because of the whole cladding thing.) But for Reasons, I have to move house soon.
I'd love to know people's thoughts on moving into a place like this. Are my preconceived ideas about Victorians correct? What have your experiences been of living in places like this? I guess this is UK filter, but old houses/houses converted into flats aren't only a UK thing, so perspectives from everywhere welcome.
I only know bad things about living in Victorian conversion flats:
- They are old and require constant maintenance
- They are draughty, and replacing the old windows will bankrupt you, but if you replace them with new uPVC windows, you will lower their resale value
- You can hear everything in the flats above/below/on either side
- If you live on the top floor you are liable for expensive roof repair work (even if you don't own the freehold)
- If you live on the bottom floor you are liable for expensive foundation work (even if you don't own the freehold)
- You will probably get mice.
But I went to look at a top floor conversion flat recently in North London and it was the nicest place I have seen. The lease was long. The place is affordable. The neighbourhood is nice. The flat was lovely - it felt good from the minute I stepped in. It felt warm and welcoming, the huge windows let in a ton of light, the walls and floor felt solid.
Should I start investigating places like these more seriously, even if this particular place doesn't come through? (This would make it easier for me. There's a whole difficulty now with buying purpose-built apartments in a block because of the whole cladding thing.) But for Reasons, I have to move house soon.
I'd love to know people's thoughts on moving into a place like this. Are my preconceived ideas about Victorians correct? What have your experiences been of living in places like this? I guess this is UK filter, but old houses/houses converted into flats aren't only a UK thing, so perspectives from everywhere welcome.
My husband and I briefly owned a Victorian (cold area of the US). I loved a lot of things about it; had the neighborhood not been what I wanted, we'd still be there. It had high ceilings (9', I think), and enormously tall windows (7'), so the whole place felt airy and light. My experience with multiple nineteenth-century buildings is that there was *less* sound transmission, rather than more. The plaster and lath were better at blocking sound that modern drywall, in my opinion, and the sturdier building materials may also have helped (old-growth wood in subfloor, studs, and joists). It's in modern houses that I have found I can hear every toilet flush and quiet conversation. YMMV.
Re. the downsides: our Victorian was extremely expensive to heat in the winter, however as your proposed flat is top floor, I'd be much less concerned. I assume there's no air conditioning? It might be my slight worry that it would be too hot in the summer, but in the UK, I wouldn't be too concerned about that personally. In the US, you can buy historic-approved new windows that look almost like old windows ("divided lites"): they are more expensive than cheaper vinyl, but for us, they weren't *that* much more. The difference in window cost wouldn't stop me from moving forward. You can also restore the old windows to make them less drafty. I don't know how it works with a flat conversion and being liable for roof repair or foundation repair. The quotes I got for redoing the roof weren't any higher than it would be for a newer property, however if it were your sole responsibility, I guess that would be concerning. Are you sure? My understanding is that in the US, there are monthly fees that all condo owners pay and then exterior expenses are taken out of that. I would be more concerned with the foundation. We had the unfortunate chance to learn all about Victorian foundations, and let's just say they're not up to modern standards. It probably won't impact you, but if it does, it will be expensive (potentially easily five figures). So I'd find out if you have liability for the foundation, as that would give me the most pause.
Anyway, none of this is to deter you. I'd happily live in a Victorian again for all the reasons you mention, and I'd in fact prefer them to houses from every other period except Edwardian and 1920s.
posted by ClaireBear at 3:00 PM on February 12, 2021
Re. the downsides: our Victorian was extremely expensive to heat in the winter, however as your proposed flat is top floor, I'd be much less concerned. I assume there's no air conditioning? It might be my slight worry that it would be too hot in the summer, but in the UK, I wouldn't be too concerned about that personally. In the US, you can buy historic-approved new windows that look almost like old windows ("divided lites"): they are more expensive than cheaper vinyl, but for us, they weren't *that* much more. The difference in window cost wouldn't stop me from moving forward. You can also restore the old windows to make them less drafty. I don't know how it works with a flat conversion and being liable for roof repair or foundation repair. The quotes I got for redoing the roof weren't any higher than it would be for a newer property, however if it were your sole responsibility, I guess that would be concerning. Are you sure? My understanding is that in the US, there are monthly fees that all condo owners pay and then exterior expenses are taken out of that. I would be more concerned with the foundation. We had the unfortunate chance to learn all about Victorian foundations, and let's just say they're not up to modern standards. It probably won't impact you, but if it does, it will be expensive (potentially easily five figures). So I'd find out if you have liability for the foundation, as that would give me the most pause.
Anyway, none of this is to deter you. I'd happily live in a Victorian again for all the reasons you mention, and I'd in fact prefer them to houses from every other period except Edwardian and 1920s.
posted by ClaireBear at 3:00 PM on February 12, 2021
I love old buildings. Yes, they have issues, they're old and creaky and dusty, but at least they weren't originally built by cowboys who half-assed everything (well, most of them). I view new builds with a deep, deep suspicion.
I live in a conversion currently, of a Victorian whisky bond which may not be comparable to what you're looking at (the inside is effectively totally new, from when it was converted in the 90s)
Pros: it has stone walls and retains heat like a mofo. That crazy cold weather we just had in Scotland? I haven't turned the heating on. Our flat is effectively heated by radiant heat from our neighbours. Also the floors are concrete or something underneath, there is basically no sound travel. I only hear our neighbours in the hall. I love our flat and think it was a great buy.
Cons: It gets real hot in summer. The outside of the building is listed, so our windows have to be maintained and painted the standard colour so they're all uniform. It will be a a grand or so a window when they need replacing, I believe.
General cons from old buildings I have lived in:
-Yup, mice. Although I think new apartments get mice too.
- if the roof is old, it will need work, but depends on the roof. A slate roof can have a long lifespan.
- Sometimes the hot water systems suck, and there's low water pressure. I personally would want a good modern system in place.
- Mystery problems. It's old! Many years of bad fixes are hidden in the walls. Of course, new builds often have terrible workmanship hidden in the walls too. Persoanlly, assuming no big structural issues, I would consider this a wash.
- Nothing is straight. Nothing is a right angle. Forget the level, you have to eyeball things now.
General pros of old buildings:
- They are beautiful. Those old victorian rooms with the ceiling molding and big windows make me feel something that new buildings do not. That feeling is important to me, and brings me genuine joy. My current flat doesn't quite have that, sadly, although it is OK.
- If you're lucky, no mdf, no cheap crappy door frames with the thinnest veneer that looks shitty as soon as you scratch them. Solid wood develops character and continues to look beautiful with age. Mdf just looks crappy. Cheap crappy things make me grumpy. Plastic things make me grumpy.
OK, so I'm biased. I love old buildings, to me they have a heart and character that makes up for their many flaws. You may not feel the same way, but I would suggest being open to a potential conversion, because I think you would actually really like my flat. The only maintenance we've needed to do is to the goddamn lifts, and I would strongly recommend against a building with lifts you'd have to pay for, if you can help it, because they are an expensive pain in the ass.
posted by stillnocturnal at 3:08 PM on February 12, 2021 [15 favorites]
I live in a conversion currently, of a Victorian whisky bond which may not be comparable to what you're looking at (the inside is effectively totally new, from when it was converted in the 90s)
Pros: it has stone walls and retains heat like a mofo. That crazy cold weather we just had in Scotland? I haven't turned the heating on. Our flat is effectively heated by radiant heat from our neighbours. Also the floors are concrete or something underneath, there is basically no sound travel. I only hear our neighbours in the hall. I love our flat and think it was a great buy.
Cons: It gets real hot in summer. The outside of the building is listed, so our windows have to be maintained and painted the standard colour so they're all uniform. It will be a a grand or so a window when they need replacing, I believe.
General cons from old buildings I have lived in:
-Yup, mice. Although I think new apartments get mice too.
- if the roof is old, it will need work, but depends on the roof. A slate roof can have a long lifespan.
- Sometimes the hot water systems suck, and there's low water pressure. I personally would want a good modern system in place.
- Mystery problems. It's old! Many years of bad fixes are hidden in the walls. Of course, new builds often have terrible workmanship hidden in the walls too. Persoanlly, assuming no big structural issues, I would consider this a wash.
- Nothing is straight. Nothing is a right angle. Forget the level, you have to eyeball things now.
General pros of old buildings:
- They are beautiful. Those old victorian rooms with the ceiling molding and big windows make me feel something that new buildings do not. That feeling is important to me, and brings me genuine joy. My current flat doesn't quite have that, sadly, although it is OK.
- If you're lucky, no mdf, no cheap crappy door frames with the thinnest veneer that looks shitty as soon as you scratch them. Solid wood develops character and continues to look beautiful with age. Mdf just looks crappy. Cheap crappy things make me grumpy. Plastic things make me grumpy.
OK, so I'm biased. I love old buildings, to me they have a heart and character that makes up for their many flaws. You may not feel the same way, but I would suggest being open to a potential conversion, because I think you would actually really like my flat. The only maintenance we've needed to do is to the goddamn lifts, and I would strongly recommend against a building with lifts you'd have to pay for, if you can help it, because they are an expensive pain in the ass.
posted by stillnocturnal at 3:08 PM on February 12, 2021 [15 favorites]
Also, my first two London flats (one rented, one bought) were first-floor Victorian conversions. They were lovely, with big windows, solid walls, and had character. One issue with Victorian terraces is that if one house has mice, they'll all have mice, particularly if the houses have cellars.
If the loft isn't insulated (unlikely), then it's worth making sure that's done (the surveyor doing your RICS report will tell you). There might also be a cold water tank in the roof space that provides a shared supply to toilets, hot water tanks, etc. (not drinking water, as that has to be mains). For this reason, flats with a shared tank can't have a water meter. If you come under Thames Water (likely) and you're going to be living alone, they'll put you on the Single Occupier Tariff which is pretty cheap (I'm on it).
posted by essexjan at 3:09 PM on February 12, 2021
If the loft isn't insulated (unlikely), then it's worth making sure that's done (the surveyor doing your RICS report will tell you). There might also be a cold water tank in the roof space that provides a shared supply to toilets, hot water tanks, etc. (not drinking water, as that has to be mains). For this reason, flats with a shared tank can't have a water meter. If you come under Thames Water (likely) and you're going to be living alone, they'll put you on the Single Occupier Tariff which is pretty cheap (I'm on it).
posted by essexjan at 3:09 PM on February 12, 2021
OMG, there is nothing like the feeling that you get when you enter such a lovely space. It's something to look forward to every day.
I would have jumped for this at a younger age, but now, I am so very DONE with fixing all the things.
If you are adventurous enough and do your due diligence, go for it; because this is something you'll regret not doing it, eventually. If you hate it, then you can sell in a few years.
If you don't like 'dealing' with things, then this isn't for you. But it's an adventure that may be a wonderful experience....
posted by mightshould at 3:23 PM on February 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
I would have jumped for this at a younger age, but now, I am so very DONE with fixing all the things.
If you are adventurous enough and do your due diligence, go for it; because this is something you'll regret not doing it, eventually. If you hate it, then you can sell in a few years.
If you don't like 'dealing' with things, then this isn't for you. But it's an adventure that may be a wonderful experience....
posted by mightshould at 3:23 PM on February 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
I live in a [rented] c.1885 terrace in Sydney. It’s great, because it faces almost directly north. That’s a key thing: the Victorian era development boom in Australia as elsewhere was marked by complete disregard for solar orientation—they built to be heated by coal, which was cheap then. Some Victorian-era housing stock gets great winter sunlight, and is lovely to live in, others get little to nothing and suffer for it.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:58 PM on February 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:58 PM on February 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've never lived in one but I've been in many. And my only experience is in the US, but I will note that they very tremendously in quality, depending on both the original maintenance and the skill/cost/date of conversion. There are some that are wonderful and worth every penny, some are mostly adequate for as student rentals, some are worse.
So yes spend every dime on independent assessment for something you are serious about, and maybe learn up a bit on how to look for certain signs yourself. There are plenty of deal-breakers you can learn to spot before even thinking of paying for an expert analysis.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:52 PM on February 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
So yes spend every dime on independent assessment for something you are serious about, and maybe learn up a bit on how to look for certain signs yourself. There are plenty of deal-breakers you can learn to spot before even thinking of paying for an expert analysis.
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:52 PM on February 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
I live in an old flat (1890s-ish, mostly) and I love it. Like you, I had a good "feel" when I first saw it, and I am so glad I live here now. I plan to stay here as long as I live in this city (and can handle the stairs).
No floor is level, the windows rattle when a truck drives by, and it's not in any way accessible for those with mobility issues (tons of twisty stairs, no lift.) But I've come to know its quirks and ways and means, like an old friend.
When you get your survey done, book someone good who's experienced with these older properties. The solicitor who helps you with the purchase can likely recommend someone.
All places are going to have issues. A friend of mine lives in a new build where it turns out the builders cheaped out on everything, so the plumbing's crap, the heating spontaneously quits working, he hears his neighbours constantly and they hear him. So the problems you mention are not unique to older buildings.
On a top floor you should be okay for heat; everyone else's heat will rise up to you, and you will get more sun than most.
In summer it may be a sun-trap. Net curtains or translucent blinds can help regulate that effect. The good thing about sash windows is that they can also help regulate heat: pull the top sash slightly down and the bottom sash slightly up, and hot air will be pushed out at the top as cooler air comes in below.
Draughts and wooden sash windows: yes and yes. Routine window maintenance, filling and painting every couple of years, will extend the life of your windows. Renew the stick-on draught strips when you do this for more warmth and less rattling. In winter you'll have to draw the curtains after dark to avoid losing heat.
Check if the building is listed. Some companies do UPVC sash windows that are approved for listed buildings. I've lived with wooden ones for 10 years now, and so far so good... but I am feeling the siren lure of never doing window maintenance again. Plus, secondary glazing. Mmmmmm.
Neighbour noise: your mileage may vary. Some walls are really solidly constructed, others not so much. (Same in modern flats, of course). Your surveyor will be able to tell you more.
Mice: The higher up you are, the less likely it is that pests will get to you. I'm on a first floor on a street with a lot of restaurants, so I saw a mouse or two before I got my 2 cats. Basic anti-mouse precautions ought to be enough: don't leave food lying around; if it's on the counter, store it in glass or metal containers rather than cardboard; keep floors and counters clear of crumbs.
Check whether there are building arrangements for pest control as well as roof repairs. I once spent a year living in an Art Deco building that had roaches (urrrgghhhh). The building booked a pest control firm to go round twice a year with diatomaceous earth and glue traps.
Living in an older house is like any relationship: fix what you can, live with the rest. For me, it's worth it to live in a place I love this much, that makes me happy whenever I come home to it.
Best of luck!
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:14 PM on February 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
No floor is level, the windows rattle when a truck drives by, and it's not in any way accessible for those with mobility issues (tons of twisty stairs, no lift.) But I've come to know its quirks and ways and means, like an old friend.
When you get your survey done, book someone good who's experienced with these older properties. The solicitor who helps you with the purchase can likely recommend someone.
All places are going to have issues. A friend of mine lives in a new build where it turns out the builders cheaped out on everything, so the plumbing's crap, the heating spontaneously quits working, he hears his neighbours constantly and they hear him. So the problems you mention are not unique to older buildings.
On a top floor you should be okay for heat; everyone else's heat will rise up to you, and you will get more sun than most.
In summer it may be a sun-trap. Net curtains or translucent blinds can help regulate that effect. The good thing about sash windows is that they can also help regulate heat: pull the top sash slightly down and the bottom sash slightly up, and hot air will be pushed out at the top as cooler air comes in below.
Draughts and wooden sash windows: yes and yes. Routine window maintenance, filling and painting every couple of years, will extend the life of your windows. Renew the stick-on draught strips when you do this for more warmth and less rattling. In winter you'll have to draw the curtains after dark to avoid losing heat.
Check if the building is listed. Some companies do UPVC sash windows that are approved for listed buildings. I've lived with wooden ones for 10 years now, and so far so good... but I am feeling the siren lure of never doing window maintenance again. Plus, secondary glazing. Mmmmmm.
Neighbour noise: your mileage may vary. Some walls are really solidly constructed, others not so much. (Same in modern flats, of course). Your surveyor will be able to tell you more.
Mice: The higher up you are, the less likely it is that pests will get to you. I'm on a first floor on a street with a lot of restaurants, so I saw a mouse or two before I got my 2 cats. Basic anti-mouse precautions ought to be enough: don't leave food lying around; if it's on the counter, store it in glass or metal containers rather than cardboard; keep floors and counters clear of crumbs.
Check whether there are building arrangements for pest control as well as roof repairs. I once spent a year living in an Art Deco building that had roaches (urrrgghhhh). The building booked a pest control firm to go round twice a year with diatomaceous earth and glue traps.
Living in an older house is like any relationship: fix what you can, live with the rest. For me, it's worth it to live in a place I love this much, that makes me happy whenever I come home to it.
Best of luck!
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:14 PM on February 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
If it’s REALLY affordable relative to others, find out WHY.
posted by tristeza at 7:18 PM on February 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by tristeza at 7:18 PM on February 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
- If you live on the top floor you are liable for expensive roof repair work (even if you don't own the freehold)
- If you live on the bottom floor you are liable for expensive foundation work (even if you don't own the freehold)
I’m not sure this is true? I lived in one (top floor!) and roof repair work was shared among the leaseholders. I did get the loft insulated on my own dime, but it was like £300 and totally worth it (and I was really the only one who benefited from it).
posted by ClarissaWAM at 10:59 PM on February 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
- If you live on the bottom floor you are liable for expensive foundation work (even if you don't own the freehold)
I’m not sure this is true? I lived in one (top floor!) and roof repair work was shared among the leaseholders. I did get the loft insulated on my own dime, but it was like £300 and totally worth it (and I was really the only one who benefited from it).
posted by ClarissaWAM at 10:59 PM on February 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
We have a Victorian flat in North London so I can speak from experience. If it feels good that's a huge plus and I would go for it.
I think everyone else has said what I wanted to say: get an amazing survey, including electrics/boiler and drains, damp and roof (which may seem overkill, but you always seem to get money back after these.) Ask specific questions through the agent/solicitor about rodents.
It is not true that if you live on the top floor you are more liable for roof repairs, etc. I mean, it affects you more, but that should be split between you (share of freehold) or to be negotiated with the leaseholder. (Important to figure out differences between the two means of ownership.) Upkeep is a lot -- we are getting our place painted soon, and even though it is mostly brick, it adds up to about 3K each. Ask what works are planned.
If it is share of freehold, I would in particular walk around the place and see if you can find out anything about the neighbors (ask specific questions to current owners.) We LOVE the people we share our freehold with -- they are financially solvent (this is so important in terms of repairs -- I have a friend who does pay for all repairs for their building, even if it's not her legal obligation, because her elderly neighbor simply has no money to do so). They are also kind, easy to live with, and reasonable. Of course, they may move, but that's always true.
Good luck -- Victorian houses in my opinion better built than many modern ones. The problems we've had in our flat have mostly been because of shoddy modern extensions. I don't think buying something more modern guarantees an easier life, esp. if you love this place.
posted by heavenknows at 2:21 AM on February 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think everyone else has said what I wanted to say: get an amazing survey, including electrics/boiler and drains, damp and roof (which may seem overkill, but you always seem to get money back after these.) Ask specific questions through the agent/solicitor about rodents.
It is not true that if you live on the top floor you are more liable for roof repairs, etc. I mean, it affects you more, but that should be split between you (share of freehold) or to be negotiated with the leaseholder. (Important to figure out differences between the two means of ownership.) Upkeep is a lot -- we are getting our place painted soon, and even though it is mostly brick, it adds up to about 3K each. Ask what works are planned.
If it is share of freehold, I would in particular walk around the place and see if you can find out anything about the neighbors (ask specific questions to current owners.) We LOVE the people we share our freehold with -- they are financially solvent (this is so important in terms of repairs -- I have a friend who does pay for all repairs for their building, even if it's not her legal obligation, because her elderly neighbor simply has no money to do so). They are also kind, easy to live with, and reasonable. Of course, they may move, but that's always true.
Good luck -- Victorian houses in my opinion better built than many modern ones. The problems we've had in our flat have mostly been because of shoddy modern extensions. I don't think buying something more modern guarantees an easier life, esp. if you love this place.
posted by heavenknows at 2:21 AM on February 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
We own a conversion, basement flat, so opposite to your top floor situation. We also lived on a ground floor conversion before this flat.
- They are old and require constant maintenance
This has not been our experience. We did do quite a lot of renovation when we first moved in, as it was in a poor condition. But other than “normal” maintenance that comes with general property ownership we haven’t felt overburdened. It really just depends on the quality of the conversion. That’s what a survey is for.
- They are draughty, and replacing the old windows will bankrupt you, but if you replace them with new uPVC windows, you will lower their resale value.
Again depends on how the conversion was done. Our place is solid. Warm in the winter and cool in the summer. However, like I said it’s a basement flat. This is probably different for a top floor one. But still, it depends on insulation.
We’ve replaced all the windows and it’s absolutely not true it will bankrupt you. Just shop around and don’t use those guys that have commercials, they are deffo too expensive. And we just sold our flat and I’m pretty confident the windows did not lower their value. If anything they were an attraction as they are really smart looking yet sympathetic to the design of the building and double glazed.
One potential issue though is if your property is listed you may be limited in the type/design of the windows you replace. You will then need council permission and that could be an issue in time or money.
- You can hear everything in the flats above/below/on either side.
I think that’s any flat? You are sharing walls with strangers. You’re probably more at risk of pissing off your downstairs neighbours as a top floor flat though.
- If you live on the top floor you are liable for expensive roof repair work (even if you don't own the freehold)
- If you live on the bottom floor you are liable for expensive foundation work (even if you don't own the freehold)
These are absolutely not a given fact. It depends on the contract between the freeholders and leaseholders. Unfortunately I don’t think you would be able to find this out until you’re already in the sales process after an offer was accepted.
- You will probably get mice.
This is unfortunately true. Get a cat! We got a cat after my husband saw one mouse while he was on the toilet (true story) and we’ve never seen one since, even when we heard the girls upstairs screaming when they saw mice, plural.
—
Actual cons
- cost of renovations could be more. No walls are straight and floors are uneven. Electrical points could be missing or in weird places. Concrete in unexpected places. Old building means a lot of previous owners and who knows what the hell they did. We were absolutely shocked at the shortcuts our previous owner took (who rented the flat).
- weird sizes of rooms and doors and hallways can make some furniture purchasing and arranging a challenge.
- generally no built in storage or closets anywhere so smaller sized rooms are further taken up with freestanding storage solutions.
Despite all that I would absolutely consider them. I love their character and a top floor unit with big windows sounds lovely.
posted by like_neon at 3:12 AM on February 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
- They are old and require constant maintenance
This has not been our experience. We did do quite a lot of renovation when we first moved in, as it was in a poor condition. But other than “normal” maintenance that comes with general property ownership we haven’t felt overburdened. It really just depends on the quality of the conversion. That’s what a survey is for.
- They are draughty, and replacing the old windows will bankrupt you, but if you replace them with new uPVC windows, you will lower their resale value.
Again depends on how the conversion was done. Our place is solid. Warm in the winter and cool in the summer. However, like I said it’s a basement flat. This is probably different for a top floor one. But still, it depends on insulation.
We’ve replaced all the windows and it’s absolutely not true it will bankrupt you. Just shop around and don’t use those guys that have commercials, they are deffo too expensive. And we just sold our flat and I’m pretty confident the windows did not lower their value. If anything they were an attraction as they are really smart looking yet sympathetic to the design of the building and double glazed.
One potential issue though is if your property is listed you may be limited in the type/design of the windows you replace. You will then need council permission and that could be an issue in time or money.
- You can hear everything in the flats above/below/on either side.
I think that’s any flat? You are sharing walls with strangers. You’re probably more at risk of pissing off your downstairs neighbours as a top floor flat though.
- If you live on the top floor you are liable for expensive roof repair work (even if you don't own the freehold)
- If you live on the bottom floor you are liable for expensive foundation work (even if you don't own the freehold)
These are absolutely not a given fact. It depends on the contract between the freeholders and leaseholders. Unfortunately I don’t think you would be able to find this out until you’re already in the sales process after an offer was accepted.
- You will probably get mice.
This is unfortunately true. Get a cat! We got a cat after my husband saw one mouse while he was on the toilet (true story) and we’ve never seen one since, even when we heard the girls upstairs screaming when they saw mice, plural.
—
Actual cons
- cost of renovations could be more. No walls are straight and floors are uneven. Electrical points could be missing or in weird places. Concrete in unexpected places. Old building means a lot of previous owners and who knows what the hell they did. We were absolutely shocked at the shortcuts our previous owner took (who rented the flat).
- weird sizes of rooms and doors and hallways can make some furniture purchasing and arranging a challenge.
- generally no built in storage or closets anywhere so smaller sized rooms are further taken up with freestanding storage solutions.
Despite all that I would absolutely consider them. I love their character and a top floor unit with big windows sounds lovely.
posted by like_neon at 3:12 AM on February 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oh another Con is that a lot of Victorian flats have weird floor plans. We saw so many layouts where the bathroom was past the kitchen and the bedroom was at the front next to the entrance. And in attempting an “open plan” feel, it often feels like you’re cooking in your living room because the space is so tight.
My Must Have when we were looking for flats was that the conversion had to have a “sensible” layout. “Sensible” is of course highly subjective but such layouts were few and far between for me. Especially top floor flats which tended to have a smaller square footage.
posted by like_neon at 3:18 AM on February 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
My Must Have when we were looking for flats was that the conversion had to have a “sensible” layout. “Sensible” is of course highly subjective but such layouts were few and far between for me. Especially top floor flats which tended to have a smaller square footage.
posted by like_neon at 3:18 AM on February 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
On the point of roof repairs, I'm a leaseholder of a top floor flat. When roof repairs were needed recently the cost was split evenly between all nine leaseholders. Check the lease (or get your conveyancer to do so, or make it one of your enquiries) to see exactly what you'd be liable for in terms of the roof.
posted by katie_w at 8:25 AM on February 13, 2021
posted by katie_w at 8:25 AM on February 13, 2021
-They are old and require constant maintenance
They are old but that's nothing. If it hasn't been renovated/refurbished in the last 10-20 years there will be a lot to fix. Otherwise, not so much - ie about the same as flat built much more recently. From your description of the place, it probably doesn't need any work doing but I would eg check the age of the boiler and make sure it has a modern consumer panel for the electrics. Homebuyers report should tell you what, if anything, needs doing sooner rather than later and is money well spent.
- They are draughty, and replacing the old windows will bankrupt you, but if you replace them with new uPVC windows, you will lower their resale value
Where I live, windows have already mostly been replaced by uPVC. Getting sash windows repaired is not prohibitively expensive and should result in a draught-free situation. You can also use heavy curtains, secondary glazing and draught excluders to help with comfort in cold weather.
- You can hear everything in the flats above/below/on either side
Maybe. Depends on how well it was built. This is always a risk for anything other than a detached house. There's usually less noise if you are on the top floor.
- If you live on the top floor you are liable for expensive roof repair work (even if you don't own the freehold)
- If you live on the bottom floor you are liable for expensive foundation work (even if you don't own the freehold)
Unlikely. Mostly responsibility for repairs is either with the freeholder (in which case you will have high service charges) or split between the leaseholders. All of this should be spelled out in the lease, which you will see and review before you buy. Get good legal advice on the lease and be sure you understand it properly.
- You will probably get mice.
I have had mice in a Victorian flat, 90s built flat and Edwardian terrace. In the terrace, I didn't get them after I had redone the ground floor bathroom and kitchen, which sealed up the holes they were getting in through.
posted by plonkee at 9:29 AM on February 13, 2021
They are old but that's nothing. If it hasn't been renovated/refurbished in the last 10-20 years there will be a lot to fix. Otherwise, not so much - ie about the same as flat built much more recently. From your description of the place, it probably doesn't need any work doing but I would eg check the age of the boiler and make sure it has a modern consumer panel for the electrics. Homebuyers report should tell you what, if anything, needs doing sooner rather than later and is money well spent.
- They are draughty, and replacing the old windows will bankrupt you, but if you replace them with new uPVC windows, you will lower their resale value
Where I live, windows have already mostly been replaced by uPVC. Getting sash windows repaired is not prohibitively expensive and should result in a draught-free situation. You can also use heavy curtains, secondary glazing and draught excluders to help with comfort in cold weather.
- You can hear everything in the flats above/below/on either side
Maybe. Depends on how well it was built. This is always a risk for anything other than a detached house. There's usually less noise if you are on the top floor.
- If you live on the top floor you are liable for expensive roof repair work (even if you don't own the freehold)
- If you live on the bottom floor you are liable for expensive foundation work (even if you don't own the freehold)
Unlikely. Mostly responsibility for repairs is either with the freeholder (in which case you will have high service charges) or split between the leaseholders. All of this should be spelled out in the lease, which you will see and review before you buy. Get good legal advice on the lease and be sure you understand it properly.
- You will probably get mice.
I have had mice in a Victorian flat, 90s built flat and Edwardian terrace. In the terrace, I didn't get them after I had redone the ground floor bathroom and kitchen, which sealed up the holes they were getting in through.
posted by plonkee at 9:29 AM on February 13, 2021
I currently live in a Victorian/Edwardian terrace, and have close friends who live in Victorian conversion flats in London. We are all happy with them.
posted by plonkee at 9:30 AM on February 13, 2021
posted by plonkee at 9:30 AM on February 13, 2021
Just coming back to add to what others have said about the roof/foundation liability. Our contract is similar to katie_w but the freeholder is actually liable for any repairs under a minimum cost. Any excess is then divided amongst all the leaseholders.
So it is very unlikely you would be saddled with the entire cost as a leaseholder but contracts may vary.
posted by like_neon at 10:05 AM on February 13, 2021
So it is very unlikely you would be saddled with the entire cost as a leaseholder but contracts may vary.
posted by like_neon at 10:05 AM on February 13, 2021
That is really not my experience of living in a Victorian conversion.
- They are old and require constant maintenance
Get a proper survey, but we have done nothing except cosmetic work/exterior painting since we’ve lived here (20 years). New kitchen, new bathroom, painting, etc. No major works.
- They are draughty, and replacing the old windows will bankrupt you, but if you replace them with new uPVC windows, you will lower their resale value
Ours is warm. No draughts at all - my DM lives in a 1980s house, and it is absolutely freezing compared to ours. We have wooden double glazed sashes, which yes were more expensive than an bog standard uPVC window, but look much nicer. Our neighbours have uPVC sashes, which also look pretty good and are much cheaper. Hasn’t affected resale price on our road, as far as I can see.
- You can hear everything in the flats above/below/on either side
Can’t hear our neighbours in ours. The wall and floors are far thicker than in new-builds.
- If you live on the top floor you are liable for expensive roof repair work (even if you don't own the freehold)
Nope, that’s the freeholder’s responsibility (though if you are share of freehold you’ll have joint responsibility for it, and even if you aren’t you’ll end up paying via the ground rent, as you would in any flat).
- If you live on the bottom floor you are liable for expensive foundation work (even if you don't own the freehold)
As above. The legal situation here is the same in any flat, there is nothing magical about Victorian conversions here.
- You will probably get mice
Keep your kitchen clean. We had the odd one going through when the house next door was derelict, none since it was rebuilt. Again, this is not unique to Victorian conversions - my brother is in a 1960s block and has had mice too.
I like ours for the high ceilings, far bigger rooms than in new builds, walls and doors are solid, and we have much bigger windows. It just feels light and airy, whereas unless you are spending millions, most new builds in London feel pokey, dark and cheap. There’s a reason most of London is Victorian terraces - they are high build-quality compared to the majority of modern houses.
posted by tinkletown at 10:32 AM on February 13, 2021
- They are old and require constant maintenance
Get a proper survey, but we have done nothing except cosmetic work/exterior painting since we’ve lived here (20 years). New kitchen, new bathroom, painting, etc. No major works.
- They are draughty, and replacing the old windows will bankrupt you, but if you replace them with new uPVC windows, you will lower their resale value
Ours is warm. No draughts at all - my DM lives in a 1980s house, and it is absolutely freezing compared to ours. We have wooden double glazed sashes, which yes were more expensive than an bog standard uPVC window, but look much nicer. Our neighbours have uPVC sashes, which also look pretty good and are much cheaper. Hasn’t affected resale price on our road, as far as I can see.
- You can hear everything in the flats above/below/on either side
Can’t hear our neighbours in ours. The wall and floors are far thicker than in new-builds.
- If you live on the top floor you are liable for expensive roof repair work (even if you don't own the freehold)
Nope, that’s the freeholder’s responsibility (though if you are share of freehold you’ll have joint responsibility for it, and even if you aren’t you’ll end up paying via the ground rent, as you would in any flat).
- If you live on the bottom floor you are liable for expensive foundation work (even if you don't own the freehold)
As above. The legal situation here is the same in any flat, there is nothing magical about Victorian conversions here.
- You will probably get mice
Keep your kitchen clean. We had the odd one going through when the house next door was derelict, none since it was rebuilt. Again, this is not unique to Victorian conversions - my brother is in a 1960s block and has had mice too.
I like ours for the high ceilings, far bigger rooms than in new builds, walls and doors are solid, and we have much bigger windows. It just feels light and airy, whereas unless you are spending millions, most new builds in London feel pokey, dark and cheap. There’s a reason most of London is Victorian terraces - they are high build-quality compared to the majority of modern houses.
posted by tinkletown at 10:32 AM on February 13, 2021
Owned and lived in a Victorian maisonette in south London for twenty years. Amazing place. Loved it dearly. A few points, some that others have touched on:
* Spending a few hundred quid extra on a really thorough survey is will pay for itself several times over.
* Expect to have more problems if the place was rented previously.
* Having old sash windows replaced with new sash windows doesn't have to be bank-breaking, and they can be double-glazed. Shop around.
* Soundproofing will be better if the place still has the original ceilings. Plasterboard is not great at damping noise.
* Mice: we never saw any. Cockroaches from the Italian restaurant next door, on the other hand...
Best of luck with it!
posted by Hogshead at 3:52 PM on February 13, 2021
* Spending a few hundred quid extra on a really thorough survey is will pay for itself several times over.
* Expect to have more problems if the place was rented previously.
* Having old sash windows replaced with new sash windows doesn't have to be bank-breaking, and they can be double-glazed. Shop around.
* Soundproofing will be better if the place still has the original ceilings. Plasterboard is not great at damping noise.
* Mice: we never saw any. Cockroaches from the Italian restaurant next door, on the other hand...
Best of luck with it!
posted by Hogshead at 3:52 PM on February 13, 2021
We lived in the first floor flat of a Victorian terrace in North London for years. The windows can be a little draughty but that’s as much s function of size as anything else, as others have mentioned replacing needn’t break the back and decent blinds / curtains and insulating the loft (free with government scene at the time, don’t know if that’s on going) were big helps in terms of temperature regulation. Also because we had neighbours on 3 sides insulation in those directions was good.
If you’re upstairs you won’t hear too much from downstairs but it’s worth being friendly and having carpets and thick underlay to deaden your foot steps. We were lucky and got on well with our neighbours, so the occasional shooting out loud music from either side was easy to forgive, we stay in touch years after we moved out.
We did have one mouse but living upstairs meant limited ways they could get in, only once in 7 years, I eventually managed to throw a dressing gown over it and safely take it out to the street.
Overall we loved it, high ceilings, masses of light, a feeling of being up above the bustle of the street. I’d be a little more cautious about a ground floor flats for the reasons you mention but I know a bunch of people who live in Victorian ground floor flats in various London locations and all seem happy, esp if they have some usable outdoor space.
posted by tomp at 2:09 AM on February 14, 2021
If you’re upstairs you won’t hear too much from downstairs but it’s worth being friendly and having carpets and thick underlay to deaden your foot steps. We were lucky and got on well with our neighbours, so the occasional shooting out loud music from either side was easy to forgive, we stay in touch years after we moved out.
We did have one mouse but living upstairs meant limited ways they could get in, only once in 7 years, I eventually managed to throw a dressing gown over it and safely take it out to the street.
Overall we loved it, high ceilings, masses of light, a feeling of being up above the bustle of the street. I’d be a little more cautious about a ground floor flats for the reasons you mention but I know a bunch of people who live in Victorian ground floor flats in various London locations and all seem happy, esp if they have some usable outdoor space.
posted by tomp at 2:09 AM on February 14, 2021
Seconding everything everyone here has said about mice, though I am guessing (emphasis on the word "guessing," as I am not a specialist in rodent behavior) that being on the top floor means that you will see less mouse traffic on the top floor than you would if your dream flat were located on the ground floor. Or, worse, in the cellar.
My source is a friend who bought a rundown Victorian house-turned-apartment-building 20 years ago and has lived on the first floor ever since, renting out the other two units.
One of the first things she discovered when she started bringing the building up to code was that what she envisioned as a cozy basement apartment was already occupied. By rats. (Word from neighborhood old-timers was that they'd started to be seen in the 1970s, after an old railroad grain elevator on the waterfront caught fire and had to be torn down.)
I can't give you any advice on vetting cats for mousing ability, unfortunately. Of the felines of my youth, most would ignore rodents, even in their direct line of vision; the bloodthirsty exception would kill small animals outside and bring them in. The cats I've had since eat lovely organic meals and would never deign to kill a mouse!
posted by virago at 2:27 PM on February 14, 2021
My source is a friend who bought a rundown Victorian house-turned-apartment-building 20 years ago and has lived on the first floor ever since, renting out the other two units.
One of the first things she discovered when she started bringing the building up to code was that what she envisioned as a cozy basement apartment was already occupied. By rats. (Word from neighborhood old-timers was that they'd started to be seen in the 1970s, after an old railroad grain elevator on the waterfront caught fire and had to be torn down.)
I can't give you any advice on vetting cats for mousing ability, unfortunately. Of the felines of my youth, most would ignore rodents, even in their direct line of vision; the bloodthirsty exception would kill small animals outside and bring them in. The cats I've had since eat lovely organic meals and would never deign to kill a mouse!
posted by virago at 2:27 PM on February 14, 2021
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A full survey costs £000s. But there's a middle option called the RICS Homebuyer's Report, which is a detailed 15-page report which will give you a fairly comprehensive overview of the state of the property, including any issues that might need attention. When you apply for your mortgage the adviser should tell you about this option, as the same surveyor who does the lender's valuation will carry out this inspection for you at the same time. The cost of it is usually on a sliding scale, depending on the value of the property, but will probably be around £500. It really is money well spent as you can't rely on the lender's valuation to inform you on the condition of the property. If your mortgage adviser doesn't mention it, ask.
posted by essexjan at 2:57 PM on February 12, 2021 [5 favorites]