Second opinion on this kitchen reno

October 26, 2020 3:19 PM

My mother's house suffered a water leak in February and has been getting a long and complicated set of construction and repairs. This has been lengthened, of course by COVID concerns so I've been trying to roll with it as best I can. I just received some photos of the final appliance installs and I think they look wrong enough that they need fixing but would like second opinions. Could you look at this oven/range hood alignment, and this washer/dryer alignment, and this radiator alignment and let me know if you think that is acceptable?

Extra backstory: The farmhouse kitchen (an old farmhouse owned by me and my sister after my mom's death; we were going to put on the market this spring) had been totally custom built by my dad to fit a kind of weird space in the 70s and it all had to be torn apart because of water/mold remediation. That is fine, it was not in great shape to be honest and we're selling the house. However, we feel like the contractor on this job (chosen by my insurance company USAA, who has been otherwise wonderful) has been kind of phoning it in. The job restarted after COVID allowed it and it's taken about four months for what was mostly fixing plumbing and electric, rebuilding the kitchen including the floor, and installing cupboards and counters and appliances (including the washer/dryer in the basement) as well as some carpet in an adjacent room.

Obviously it's a stressful time, and this is the house we grew up in so we have feelings, but there have been a number of problems with the job to this point and we're just really looking forward to it being over. Our contractor isn't terrible, but he's not a great communicator, hasn't been on site for a lot of the time (house has been left open, lights on, trash not removed, etc) and there have been a number of delays because of materials delays (the first two countertops he got delaminated and contributed to delays, the first carpet was damaged, the cabinets were scheduled to arrive and just never showed up and had to be re-ordered) that may not be his fault.

We have a written estimate that was created in February by someone no longer with the company. That estimate calls for custom cabinetry (this stuff is very much off the shelf) but also doesn't take into account that more of the existing cabinetry was removed than they were originally planning. So there has been some flexibility in the plan and we're not able to just go off of the estimate. We pointed this out and got a few "Well that will be a hassle to fix because...." and we're looking for a second opinion(s) as to whether we should push on this. Would a buyer of this house take a look at this kitchen/basement and be like "That's fucked up?" Thank you!

Note: none of these things were communicated to us beforehand, these are just pictures my sister took on her weekly walkthrough.

posted by jessamyn to Home & Garden (39 answers total)

I can only see the radiator alignment photo, the rest are not showing.
And yes, this sounds fucked up.
posted by dbmcd at 3:26 PM on October 26, 2020

Stove/hood alignment looks very bad, the hood should absolutely be centered for aesthetic and practical reasons.

I can't really tell what's going on with the laundry -- is the installation complete, or is it possible the contractors left the appliances there temporarily and are in the process of hooking them up? Obviously yes the dryer should be pushed back more but it looks like a work in progress to me.
posted by mekily at 3:27 PM on October 26, 2020 [4 favorites]

The photos all show. Scroll down.

THe washer dryer being uneven does not bother me as much as the hood and oven. It looks like the washer dryer have pipes and stuff behind that make it such that this is the best way to install. It looks like a basement so no worries if they both work fine.

The hood is not aligned with the stove/oven. It looks like the opening is off and that is going to be because of the size of a cabinet either up top or next to the stove. I would not accept that although know that the fix is probably a pain bc cabinet(s) need to be redone. I would redo the top so that the counter do not have to be redone.

The radiator is shall I say unusual, but other than in my NYC apartment 30+ years ago, I have not had cast iron radiators so not sure if that is just unsightly or has actual placement issues. Being that close to the cabinet could create issues though bc of the heat.
posted by AugustWest at 3:31 PM on October 26, 2020

It's not good. It's probably functional. But it does seem phoned-in. It looks like no one did even a basic drawing of the kitchen cabinets and just installed whatever they had. The kitchen looks fine (at least as far as I can tell in a photo) but definitely sloppy. But yes, if I saw this in a real estate listing I would assume it was done by a non-professional.

A radiator touching a cabinet directly seems problematic. Probably a home inspector could tell you if this is an actual code violation where you live.

The washer and dryer seem odd but there's a bunch of pipes there and I can't tell if there's space to move the dryer back or if something even weirder is going on. It seems easy enough to fix but again, I can't tell.
posted by GuyZero at 3:31 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]

Also, what's up with the weird baseboard around the stove?
posted by mekily at 3:31 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]

I would consider them all unacceptable and ask for a re-do with no labour billing.

I was designing a potential kitchen reno at Ikea recently and the salesperson was very clear that each base cabinet and the corresponding upper cabinet should generally be matched pairs, to avoid issues like the crooked stove hood. The radiator shouldn't be built to be touching another surface! And the washer dryer situation looks ridiculous to the point where I would wonder if that's just a temp placement before it gets properly connected.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 3:32 PM on October 26, 2020 [5 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks all, in response to questions: Contractor has said installation is complete, he put the dryer there because that's where the dryer vent was. It is blocking the water treatment system behind it This system, also a new install but not by them, was in a slightly different place with the previous basement configuration and both appliances used to be pushed back like the current washer is. Electrical and building inspector have signed off on this, but we have not spoken to them. The radiator was pre-existing in the kitchen and was part of an island unit that is not in the current kitchen. There was an extra narrow cabinet next to it in the old kitchen (again, custom)
posted by jessamyn at 3:34 PM on October 26, 2020

If I were thinking of buying a house and saw that fan / stove placement, I'd wonder what else had been half-assed in the renovation.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:38 PM on October 26, 2020 [31 favorites]

Oh, and the washer / dryer: I've lived with some weird setups because of older houses, so I know it doesn't always look like in a showroom. But that particular arrangement means that every time you're loading the wet laundry into the dryer you have to take two or three steps back, then forwards, then back, then forwards. You'd get used to it? But it would be a constant reminder that things weren't set up for a normal work-flow.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:40 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]

Push. Fucked up. And I'd involve the insurance company pronto.
posted by kate4914 at 3:43 PM on October 26, 2020 [16 favorites]

he put the dryer there because that's where the dryer vent was

If this is the only reason, it's relatively easy to reroute the duct (or just use a longer duct hose) so you should absolutely push for that. But are you saying there's actual equipment behind the dryer preventing it from being pushed back any further?

In any case, that washer/dryer arrangement would drive me crazy and the contractor should be able to suggest solutions, that's part of their job.
posted by mekily at 3:48 PM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]

This is not acceptable and the swaps for custom cabinetry for what you got is not OK at all. This looks like it was very poorly planned and also mis-measured. That stove/vent alignment is not even close to reasonable as those are all new cabinets. Your insurance company needs to know about this shoddy work if they're shelling out for things like replacement in kind.

If I was looking at this house to buy, I'd look at all the shortcuts and improper work and be very worried about what I couldn't see.
posted by quince at 3:52 PM on October 26, 2020 [9 favorites]

Not sure where you live, but if you don’t fix this it reduces the value of your house to that of a gut-to-the-studs renovation. I’m seconding everyone else here saying that when you can see screwups like this in flagship home-sale places like the kitchen, there is no way you can trust what’s in the walls.
posted by mhoye at 3:55 PM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]

The range hood misalignment would give me concerns that things that don’t show, like plumbing and electrical, were not done properly. The washer and dryer setup is unacceptable, and will make it much harder to sell the house. The radiator seems to be in the wrong place, but a professional would need to tell you where to properly place it.

If the insurance company is paying for some or all of this, I would tell them these things are unacceptable, make the house unsaleable or less valuable than before the damage, and ask them to get an entirely different contractor in to inspect the work and redo as necessary.
posted by KayQuestions at 3:57 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]

that radiator looks very dangerous to me. Standard advice for distance to furniture is one foot. I don't think the insurance company will be too happy about setup and I would consider it totally unacceptable in terms of risk.

The hood placement looks terrible and is an obvious error and is very offputting. Nobody is going to want that in their new house so any buyer is automatically going to be thinking about the expense/trouble of having to replace the upper cabinets.

The laundry doesn't look great but I don't have an opinion on whether there was some reason for why it has to be that way. I wouldn't want to show the house that way, in any case.

Yeah, I'd be pushing back on all of it, but especially the radiator. Sorry you're dealing with this, it's so stressful!!
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:58 PM on October 26, 2020 [9 favorites]

I'll be honest, that's not just "not good", it's terrible. Your mom's insurance company paid for that? If that's how they did the cabinets how can you even trust they did the remediation correctly? You may need to get an attorney involved.
posted by stowaway at 3:58 PM on October 26, 2020

The range hood is something I'd look at as OK/tolerable if it were a cheap rental (I've lived in a series of poorly-renovated places), but I would think it was fucked up if I were a buyer being sold a house with a new kitchen.

I believe there's an issue with dryer vents that are long/bent getting lint caught in them and being a fire hazard and/or negatively impacting the dryer's performance. I don't know what the solution is but if I had a sketchy contractor making those decisions I'd do some research myself rather than just pushing them to move/fix that setup.
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:59 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]

Also, I would say your contractor IS terrible, despite your statement to the contrary. His work is crap, he declines to fix it, thus he is terrible as a contractor.
posted by KayQuestions at 4:01 PM on October 26, 2020 [14 favorites]

The radiator is on a pedestal (why?), too close to the wall, not parallel to the wall and the supply valve looks like a tripping hazard. So, no.

The oven is on a pedestal (why?) and the lack of alignment with the hood is ridiculous. Pull down the uppers and realign the hood. Is it on a pedestal because the counters are too high? They should be a max 36” at counter.
posted by amanda at 4:03 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]

The kitchen looks like they decided to use standard in-stock cabinets and got as close as they could. I'd definitely point this out to the insurer as they are paying. It looks awful, is functionally deficit, and may not be to code.

Not knowing what's going on behind the washer, that arrangement wouldn't bother me much.
posted by achrise at 4:05 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: Thank you all! I should also mention the remediation company was a different company and they were wonderful, efficient, and great communicators so we are not concerned with them or the work they did. The insurance company is mine and has been very forthright about making sure we are "made whole" by this, but since we feel like we are being somewhat gaslit by our contractor, we are trying to get other opinions because this has been going on a long time. House is, for what it's worth, an 1850s farmhouse with a LOT of deferred maintenance in a pretty hot suburban location in New England. There's a good chance whoever buys this house is going to gut reno the kitchen anyhow which is why we haven't been too concerned about most aesthetics (it wasn't lovely to begin with) but you can't sell a house without a kitchen, so we've been on this journey.
posted by jessamyn at 4:07 PM on October 26, 2020

No way. 100% unacceptable. The insurance company and the local construction contractors board need to see these photos. And if for some reason they accept it, I would explore legal recourse. This will cost you a ton when you try to sell the house and might even make it unsellable. You are right to question this.
posted by happy_cat at 4:12 PM on October 26, 2020 [5 favorites]

The radiator... I just cannot look at. That must be fixed. Moved to a better spot or replaced with something sized for that spot.

It looks like he actually ran the toe kick around the stove. If so, just remove that stupid trim thing. Pull down everything over the stove (I now see how badly sized those uppers are) and just do a wall mounted unit and a bracket-mounted, open shelf to the left. Is the hood meant to exhaust or recirculate? I don’t see a location for a vent duct.
posted by amanda at 4:12 PM on October 26, 2020

I'm in a different country, but I am a licensed architect, and to me, all three examples are totally unacceptable. If it were me, I would do what I could to get the insurance company to bring in the lawyers.
That said, in my own inherited farmhouse I'm struggling with the work of a similarly incompetent plumber, and I'm just saving up to get everything repaired by someone who knows his business, because the lawyer will cost the same and be more trouble. But my problems are not an insurance issue and I am not selling the house.
posted by mumimor at 4:18 PM on October 26, 2020

I think that shifting the upper cabinets to the right and perhaps inserting a matching filler panel to the left of the cabinets to bridge any gap could look OK if done carefully, although correctly sized cabinets would be a much better option. Unfortunately, the duct for the hood (assuming that it's ducted) will also have to be moved, hopefully there's not interference with wall studs. I'm guessing that it's a rear vent through the wall (as there's open space above the cabinets above the hood, so it doesn't seem to be roof vented) so that could conceivably also require jacking with the siding outside too.
I think the contractor is trying to avoid messing with the old galvanized piping going to the radiator- which, to be fair, can be an absolute can of worms, so I sympathize a little. Looks like the floor is probably lower than it once was (were many, many layers of flooring removed?) and the contractor built the radiator pedestal to make the existing piping line up. From the picture it's not possible to tell if it's steam or hot water as I can't see the other side of the radiator. Relocating a steam radiator can be a big deal as everything has to be pitched perfectly so the condensate drains back correctly, it's kind of a lost art nowadays. Hot water radiators are easier, it's basically normal old school plumbing.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:20 PM on October 26, 2020 [3 favorites]

“Phoning it in” is generous. This is absolutely shoddy work.

Stock cabinets are sized in 3” increments, and odd-size gaps (e.g. a 21” cabinet in a 22” location) are filled with strips of wood finished to match the cabinets. They didn’t need to do custom anything to get the range and hood aligned, they just need to be competent. They weren’t. This may also be a safety violation depending on the stove’s minimum vertical clearance to combustible materials.

I imagine the radiator is up on a pedestal because it used to be inside a cabinet, and they didn’t feel like taking things apart to shorten the pipes so it can sit on the floor. That’s lazy enough by itself, but then they went and built the pedestal too big so it sticks out further than necessary, and when they realized the mistake they just left it. And yes the radiator not being aligned with the cabinet looks bad, and the heat will damage the cabinet finish sooner or later.

The laundry situation would drive me nuts, but the fact that it’s the result of the work of two different contractors makes me think nobody was looking at the big picture. It’s not clear to me whether this particular contractor was supposed to be the big picture person.
posted by jon1270 at 4:31 PM on October 26, 2020 [3 favorites]

Is the left cabinet over the stove actually proud of the window opening to the left? Like the cabinet is too deep for that spot so it just slightly in front of the window?

Just send these photos to your insurance and say, “Help!”

Edited to add: I’m so sorry you are dealing with this.
posted by amanda at 4:35 PM on October 26, 2020

radiator - huge tripping hazard, also radiators need space to radiate heat effectively, so nope.
hood - looks bad and stupid, a blank could go above it. The trim around the base of the stove is a toe-stubber. My stove is not flush with the cupboards, but the trim was cut to fit in - toe space is a thing. The mis-alignment is not okay. Cabinets can be shimmed for stuff like this and a buyer should notice - or their inspector.
Washer-dryer. inconvenient, it's nice to throw stuff directly from washer to dryer, looks like the dryer could shove back a bit, can washer move forward and still drain?
All of this indicates inexperienced workers. I would push back confidently and note that it was custom cabinetry replaced with stock, and not the best stock, at that.
posted by theora55 at 5:12 PM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]

I just took another look, simply to appreciate how jacked everything is, and had an idea that may be somewhat helpful: could the dryer be given a quarter turn clockwise, and leave access to the equipment behind it? Then unloading the washer would be easier than the cha cha it currently requires.
posted by kate4914 at 5:30 PM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]

Not that you really need another opinion saying so at this point, but that is some seriously terrible work. (I mean, just look at how uneven the cut-out is for where the radiator pipe goes through the floor.) It all looks like what you would expect from a really incompetent DIYer, not a licensed contractor.

I have never worked with steam/hot water radiators so I don't know if that is unsafe or just unsightly. The stove/cabinet offset, however, is terrible, possibly unsafe, and is going to hurt the house value. The laundry I could see either way; I've dealt with plenty of weird laundry layouts in old houses and this probably isn't a dealbreaker to a buyer (especially if you think buyers are going to want to renovate anyway).
posted by Dip Flash at 5:57 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]

None of it is acceptable.
posted by ChristineSings at 6:42 PM on October 26, 2020

Not much to add to the chorus - I agree this is objectively Bad Work and you should push back.

In case you have doubts though I would like to address this point in particular:

There's a good chance whoever buys this house is going to gut reno the kitchen anyhow which is why we haven't been too concerned about most aesthetics (it wasn't lovely to begin with) but you can't sell a house without a kitchen, so we've been on this journey.

As some have pointed out, this is bad for resale even for people who want to do a total makeover. It implies there is more problems that can be seen on the surface. It impedes on the potential buyer’s imagination (“I have to redo that entire stove area” vs “I can just replace the doors and get a new stove”)

Potential buyers aside, we are in stressful times as you have acknowledged. I know it would be stressful to address this but it will be worthwhile to not have micro-stress added to your mother’s everyday life every time she uses at the stove, looks at the radiator and laundry. Who knows how long she will have to live there until it can be sold.
posted by like_neon at 2:03 AM on October 27, 2020

Speaking as a former member of the building trades, that is some fugly hack-tastic bullshit.

On top of everything else, that stove alignment is going to lead to quick destruction of the part of the cabinet that's DIRECTLY ABOVE the stove heating element. I don't know the exact details of building codes, but I'm pretty sure that you need something like 30" between the heating element of a range and any combustible materials. Depending on what's involved with the water treatment system, there may be an accessibility requirement for space around that, too. The radiator is stupidly placed on the base it's sitting on, and there should be a flange or something around that pipe where it goes into the floor.
posted by rmd1023 at 6:52 AM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]

Oh, yeah, if the heat is hot water, then the overall positioning is fine for the radiator (aside from it needing a better base). If it's steam, then there may be issues with having it literally in contact with the cabinet.
posted by rmd1023 at 6:54 AM on October 27, 2020

(okay, maybe not *fine*, but not *egregiously horrible and possibly unsafe".)
posted by rmd1023 at 7:43 AM on October 27, 2020

The stove vent being offset like that will still be functional, but it looks terrible. It all looks terrible.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:30 AM on October 27, 2020

Response by poster: Thanks again for feedback everyone, I'll talk to my insurance company today. The radiator is a steam radiator and the company who manages our boiler has said that it can't be that close to the cabinet. Coincidentally, my sister's workplace was hosting the Dept of Fire Services today who confirmed this assessment.
posted by jessamyn at 11:27 AM on October 27, 2020 [3 favorites]

Response by poster: Final update: we talked to our insurance company, got his boss involved, and said "Nope, fix ALL OF THIS" and after a lot of weird complaining nearly all of it was fixed to our satisfaction.

- lower cabinet was replaced with a smaller cabinet by the radiator so it is not touching radiator
- radiator was re-centered on its weird little podium (which was necessary because radiator had formerly been in a cabinet, you got it jon1270, also they are steam radiators)
- upper cabinets were moved over, centering the range hood over the stove, there's a gap to the left end of the whole cabinet section which has been covered up acceptably
- set tub in the basement was removed, washer and dryer were put side by side somewhat to the left of where they appear in the picture, we can get at our water filtration system

There was some additional hemming and hawing over some last walk-through things (needed to attach the stove to the wall in the back for safety, etc) and we held up payment until the job was 100% done which it mercifully is. Sent a scathing review to USAA (these were the contractors they selected since we didn't want to hire our own, not knowing the local folks etc - yes we'll probably do it differently if this ever happens again) and are happy to be done with this. Next step: put it on the market. I really appreciate everyone's feedback on this process, made it easier for us to insist on getting these things fixed.
posted by jessamyn at 5:49 PM on December 12, 2020 [5 favorites]

Sorry it's been such a journey of chaos, but glad to hear things are finally settled. Good luck selling it!
posted by rmd1023 at 8:09 PM on December 12, 2020